View Full Version : anti social personality disorder adhd


daveddd
04-02-11, 11:00 AM
someone asked this in another thread , the relation between the two, and i didnt want to hijack

http://books.google.com/books?id=BgO...page&q&f=false

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21377739

http://books.google.com/books?id=mEc...page&q&f=false



similar areas of brain affected http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19833485

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19793581


here is a couple things, nothing definitive

mostly they share impulsiveness and attention is implicated http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18763886


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16938024


problems shifting attention

daveddd
04-02-11, 11:30 AM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2538613/

JOHNCG
04-03-11, 12:34 AM
Thanks very much for starting this thread for me!! Also, for the references you posted, which are much appreciated...

What I am particularly interested in is to know whether or not it is thought (in theory, at least) that the problems with Antisocial Personality Disorder that so many individuals with adult-persistent ADHD inevitably acquire are, IN FACT, biologically/neurologically based?? Is there any hard evidence of this extant??

That is , IS it because ADHD is a frontal lobe (a prefrontal cortex) disorder, and there are deficiencies/deficits in the functioning of areas of the PFC like the orbitofrontal cortex (that mediates social cognition, civil behaviour, etc and so on) or the Dorsolateral PFC (that mediates, working memory, for example,) that the problems with full-blown (DSM IV) Antisocial Personality Disorder inevitably arrise in lots of adults who have ADHD??

I am thinking there must be some hard data on this kind of stuff somewhere (eventhough, try as I might, I cannot find it) because one of the very first things that ADHD researchers clearly identified (i.e; going back three decades now) about adhd in adults was that it was associated with a particularly high risk for two disorders: 1. for the development of Antisocial Personality Disorder and 2. for Substance Use (in particular ALCOHOL) Disorders. The later were scientific "facts in the bag".

But what is it about ADHD in adults that actually CAUSES the risk for Antisocial Personality Disorder?? How exactly does it happen?? What's the mechanism??

NB: Thanks again to the guy (DaveDDD, I think it was ) who started this thread for me!

daveddd
04-03-11, 10:40 AM
i was under the impression that psychopaths (extreme end of aspd) were born psychopaths


then with the selective attention issues and impulsiveness found in those studies , i almost wonder if aspd is really developed from adhd or was aspd from the beginning

daveddd
04-03-11, 11:18 AM
Thanks very much for starting this thread for me!! Also, for the references you posted, which are much appreciated...

What I am particularly interested in is to know whether or not it is thought (in theory, at least) that the problems with Antisocial Personality Disorder that so many individuals with adult-persistent ADHD inevitably acquire are, IN FACT, biologically/neurologically based?? Is there any hard evidence of this extant??

That is , IS it because ADHD is a frontal lobe (a prefrontal cortex) disorder, and there are deficiencies/deficits in the functioning of areas of the PFC like the orbitofrontal cortex (that mediates social cognition, civil behaviour, etc and so on) or the Dorsolateral PFC (that mediates, working memory, for example,) that the problems with full-blown (DSM IV) Antisocial Personality Disorder inevitably arrise in lots of adults who have ADHD??

I am thinking there must be some hard data on this kind of stuff somewhere (eventhough, try as I might, I cannot find it) because one of the very first things that ADHD researchers clearly identified (i.e; going back three decades now) about adhd in adults was that it was associated with a particularly high risk for two disorders: 1. for the development of Antisocial Personality Disorder and 2. for Substance Use (in particular ALCOHOL) Disorders. The later were scientific "facts in the bag".

But what is it about ADHD in adults that actually CAUSES the risk for Antisocial Personality Disorder?? How exactly does it happen?? What's the mechanism??

NB: Thanks again to the guy (DaveDDD, I think it was ) who started this thread for me!

plus, most of what i read says its the adhd-cd combo that is considered the "psychopathic fledgling "


cd can be present from birth , so i guess we need to find the correlation between adhd and cd in the brain


hopefully someone can help us out

daveddd
04-03-11, 11:32 AM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21135332


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21094938 i believe this suggests a separate disorder and might give a clue to what your main question is

daveddd
04-03-11, 06:51 PM
http://books.google.com/books?id=u16YJ3Uhl5QC&pg=PA98&dq=psychopaths+adhd&hl=en&ei=SPSYTcmCFcmJ0QGJ-syEDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CD4Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=psychopaths%20adhd&f=false

john cg "What I am particularly interested in is to know whether or not it is thought (in theory, at least) that the problems with Antisocial Personality Disorder that so many individuals with adult-persistent ADHD inevitably acquire are, IN FACT, biologically/neurologically based?? Is there any hard evidence of this extant??"



i believe this also point to aspd not being acquired as a result of adult persistent adhd

but more or less always there


you can scroll up from the page link for more interesting info

thats just the page the search brought me to

Joker_Girl
04-04-11, 01:31 PM
I read somewhere, i think in college, that antisocial personality, or psychopathy, is caused from your needs not being met when you are little.

If you are hungry or need changed and no one meets your needs, you learn to turn away from people. It starts out as something called reactive attachment disorder. I don't know a whole lot about it but I read that somewhere.

I did not realize there was a link between ADHD and antisocial personality disorder. That is interesting!

I remember when I was diagnosed with the ADHD, I went to the shrink and said "Idk what is wrong with me but I am tired of being crazy. I want you to figure it out and fix it." I had to go like 5 times and take a whole bunch of real boring tests and talk about things that happened when I was little and "feelings" and stuff. Then I had to pay about $1000. When it was done, I was told I had ADHD, depression (which I knew), mild anxiety, and that I had problems with attachment due to stuff that has happened in my life...this attachment thing is what makes me push away people I love, hate to be hugged, etc etc. I did not know I had this thing, but I remembered reading that thing about psychopaths.

I thought, oh that is freaking nice, now I am a psychopath. I will probably start serial killing people or something, God why do I have to be so ******* crazy, jeez!

Then I realized if I was really a psychopath, I wouldnt care that I was. LOL

I dont know but I guess it is something to do with attachments and you cant feel emotions and stuff if you are antisocial personality. Sometimes I sort of feel that way but I think its just my general craziness. I don't think i am a psycho.

I don't know if ADHD is more of a problem for me or depression. I think they make each other worse.

So I wonder what they feel causes ADHD. Kind of weird!!

JOHNCG
04-12-11, 04:15 AM
http://books.google.com/books?id=u16YJ3Uhl5QC&pg=PA98&dq=psychopaths+adhd&hl=en&ei=SPSYTcmCFcmJ0QGJ-syEDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CD4Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=psychopaths%20adhd&f=false

john cg "What I am particularly interested in is to know whether or not it is thought (in theory, at least) that the problems with Antisocial Personality Disorder that so many individuals with adult-persistent ADHD inevitably acquire are, IN FACT, biologically/neurologically based?? Is there any hard evidence of this extant??"



i believe this also point to aspd not being acquired as a result of adult persistent adhd

but more or less always there


you can scroll up from the page link for more interesting info

thats just the page the search brought me to

DaveDDD,

Thanks again for all the literature references (it's very kind of you to provide them). With regard to ADHD with early onset CD (conduct disorder), this is, as you say the "psychopathic fledgling". Russell Barkley actually thinks it (the combination ) constitutes a completely distinct disorder (i.e. distinct from either CD and/or ADHD) and that is a particularly aggressive, destructive and generally malign entity.

I am interested, if you're wondering, in the association between the development of psychopathic/antisocial personality traits in adult-persistent ADHD because it is such a (statistically) huge issue. Many individuals ( a staggeringly high proportion, in fact) who are currently incarcerated in US prisons are known to have (undiagnosed) ADHD; and the reason they are in prison is that, for instance, they were convicted of either antisocial (criminal) behaviour (like:theft, assault, rape, etc) or an offence related to (illicit) substance ab/use (like traffiking in, or personally abusing ,a drug like, say, methylamphetamine (speed) or heroin).

This makes perfect sense because for as long as the medical/scientific community has acknowledged the existence of adult-persistent adhd, let's say, what(?) , about 25 years or so; they have been aware, as well, of the fact that adults with ADHD were at PARTICULARLY high risk for developing psychopathic/antisocial personality problems/disorders and, secondly, substance use disorder (alcoholism, in particular).

It is interesting/puzzling, for me, how the fact that there is high rate of cormorbid psychopathic/antisocial personality abnormalities /disorders in adults with ADHD seems to be (quite often) overlooked, and little discussed in, for instance, forums like this??

blink
07-01-11, 10:15 PM
i was under the impression that psychopaths (extreme end of aspd) were born psychopaths


then with the selective attention issues and impulsiveness found in those studies , i almost wonder if aspd is really developed from adhd or was aspd from the beginning

Listen, you really have to have come up close and personal to a psychopath to understand they are nothing like ADHD or ADHD plus co morbid condition. There's nothing about ADHD people not having a conscience. ADHD people aren't shallow necessarily. Read the traits that make up a psychopath, none of that correlates to an ADHD person. ADHD is a mental illness and responds to medication treatment and in some cases cognitive therapy. There's no all around successful medication routine that helps a psychopath and it's a personality disorder. They go to therapy and they just focus on conning the psychiatrist.

Simenora
07-01-11, 10:38 PM
Thanks very much for starting this thread for me!! Also, for the references you posted, which are much appreciated...

What I am particularly interested in is to know whether or not it is thought (in theory, at least) that the problems with Antisocial Personality Disorder that so many individuals with adult-persistent ADHD inevitably acquire are, IN FACT, biologically/neurologically based?? Is there any hard evidence of this extant??

That is , IS it because ADHD is a frontal lobe (a prefrontal cortex) disorder, and there are deficiencies/deficits in the functioning of areas of the PFC like the orbitofrontal cortex (that mediates social cognition, civil behaviour, etc and so on) or the Dorsolateral PFC (that mediates, working memory, for example,) that the problems with full-blown (DSM IV) Antisocial Personality Disorder inevitably arrise in lots of adults who have ADHD??

I am thinking there must be some hard data on this kind of stuff somewhere (eventhough, try as I might, I cannot find it) because one of the very first things that ADHD researchers clearly identified (i.e; going back three decades now) about adhd in adults was that it was associated with a particularly high risk for two disorders: 1. for the development of Antisocial Personality Disorder and 2. for Substance Use (in particular ALCOHOL) Disorders. The later were scientific "facts in the bag".

But what is it about ADHD in adults that actually CAUSES the risk for Antisocial Personality Disorder?? How exactly does it happen?? What's the mechanism??

NB: Thanks again to the guy (DaveDDD, I think it was ) who started this thread for me!


Well there could be some relationship to the limbic/adrenal systems dysfunction and emmotional self regulation issues though I had previously associated it with over abundance of emotion as in Goleman's theories around amygdala hijack. I suppose if there is dysfunction it could go either way, manifesting as well as absense of emotion, empathy etc.

blink
07-01-11, 11:04 PM
Thanks very much for starting this thread for me!! Also, for the references you posted, which are much appreciated...

What I am particularly interested in is to know whether or not it is thought (in theory, at least) that the problems with Antisocial Personality Disorder that so many individuals with adult-persistent ADHD inevitably acquire are, IN FACT, biologically/neurologically based?? Is there any hard evidence of this extant??

That is , IS it because ADHD is a frontal lobe (a prefrontal cortex) disorder, and there are deficiencies/deficits in the functioning of areas of the PFC like the orbitofrontal cortex (that mediates social cognition, civil behaviour, etc and so on) or the Dorsolateral PFC (that mediates, working memory, for example,) that the problems with full-blown (DSM IV) Antisocial Personality Disorder inevitably arrise in lots of adults who have ADHD??

I am thinking there must be some hard data on this kind of stuff somewhere (eventhough, try as I might, I cannot find it) because one of the very first things that ADHD researchers clearly identified (i.e; going back three decades now) about adhd in adults was that it was associated with a particularly high risk for two disorders: 1. for the development of Antisocial Personality Disorder and 2. for Substance Use (in particular ALCOHOL) Disorders. The later were scientific "facts in the bag".

But what is it about ADHD in adults that actually CAUSES the risk for Antisocial Personality Disorder?? How exactly does it happen?? What's the mechanism??

NB: Thanks again to the guy (DaveDDD, I think it was ) who started this thread for me!

Ugh, you guys. Bipolar people are more apt to abuse alcohol too, are they psychopaths.....no. ADHD people don't become psychopaths as adults, ok. What is known about psychopaths is they are born with a predisposition and the personality disorder is set by their teen years. Do you see how what is known about the origins of psychopaths directly contradicts with these ideas you are tossing around?