View Full Version : Searching clinical studies about Desoxyn's neurotoxicity @ *therapeutic doses*


Morpheus-2396
04-18-11, 11:24 AM
Hello folks,

Finally, I decided to gain access to Desoxyn since all other regular ADD medicals did not cure my ADD symptoms. The use of methamphetamine for patients is prohibited in Germany. But there does a government agency in Germany exist, who could nonetheless legally deliver Desoxyn for me. The Problem is, that agency is very restrictive - I'll have to show really good reasons and arguments to justify my need for methamphetamine in their eyes. The most important possible counter-arguments I'll have to eliminate are the following:

1.) Neurotoxicity at therapeutic doses (5 - 20mg Desoxyn)
2.) Addiction at therapeutic doses
3.) Psychosis
4.) Sudden death (I've read about it in the Desoxyn prescription sheet)

The first two reasons for a possible rejection (Neurotoxicity & Addiction at therapeutic doses) are the most important. So my questions are

1.) Do you know any clinical studies about Desoxyn/methamphetamine neurotoxicity *at therapeutic usage* ?
2.) Same question about addiction *at therapeutic usage* ?
3.) If not, which (US-) federal agency/administration (e.g., FDA) I can contact via E-Mail to get such studies ?
4.) Can you (if possible) give me informations/opinions about the cases 3.) & 4.) (Psychosis, Sudden Death) ?

It is CRITICAL that I have these informations, to get the permission to obtain Desoxyn;)

Thank you 4 your help,

M-2396

relax21
04-18-11, 08:44 PM
I don't think it would be worth your time to pursue Desoxyn, especially in a country where it isn't even legal to obtain through prescription. It's very rare to get a prescription in the US. You're better off with whatever stimulants you have at your disposal in Germany for ADHD treatment. You're not going to be cured from a drug, it's just supposed to "help" with the majority of your symptoms. If you haven't gotten any response and symptom relief from the stimulant medications you've already tried it's doubtful you'll get a better response from Desoxyn. Maybe stimulants aren't right for your symptoms. Only about 75% of ADDers get a positive response to stimulants you might not be right for them.

Morpheus-2396
04-18-11, 11:30 PM
I don't think it would be worth your time to pursue Desoxyn, especially in a country where it isn't even legal to obtain through prescription. It's very rare to get a prescription in the US. You're better off with whatever stimulants you have at your disposal in Germany for ADHD treatment. You're not going to be cured from a drug, it's just supposed to "help" with the majority of your symptoms. If you haven't gotten any response and symptom relief from the stimulant medications you've already tried it's doubtful you'll get a better response from Desoxyn. Maybe stimulants aren't right for your symptoms. Only about 75% of ADDers get a positive response to stimulants you might not be right for them.

First of all, Thank You for your response:)

1.) Like I said, I tried EVERY stimulant available in Germany - methylphenidate (Ritalin & Concerta), dextroamphetamine, modafinil (Vigil), atomoxetine (Strattera), bupropion (Elontril) and imipramine (Tofranil). None of them did show ANY improvements regarding giving me attention, focus or motivation.

2.) You wrote, stimulants may not be the right medication for me. Well, I've to say that I was given every kind of (medically used) psychotropic substance by my doctors: antidepressants (Tricyclics, SSRIs and NaSSAs), neuroleptics (atypical) against OCD, mood stabilizers (valproic acid), sedatives (benzodiazepines) and many more which are not on my mind yet. These medicals also did not show any improvements (of course, they were not *supposed* to help against ADD).

3.) I don't say, I WILL be cured by Desoxyn, but in my opinion, its worth to try it, since it is the most potent CNS stimulant on earth. It's effective at even small dosages.

4.) I also don't think that ADD medication solely will cure ALL of my cognitive problems. But at least I expect them - like You already wrote - to significantly decrease the *core ADD symptoms* (lack of prolonged motivation, lack of focus, fast distractibility, lack of attention regarding my environment).

So, I would be very happy, if you or someone else could help me with the original aim of this thread;)

Thanks,

M-2396

Aspie101
04-25-11, 09:36 AM
If Dextroamphetamine did not show ANY signs at all I do not think Methamphetamine will do anything. Regardless I highly doubt Dextroamphetamine did nothing, you should really work with it more and get the dosage right, some people require high dosages.

Morpheus-2396
04-25-11, 05:10 PM
If Dextroamphetamine did not show ANY signs at all I do not think Methamphetamine will do anything. Regardless I highly doubt Dextroamphetamine did nothing, you should really work with it more and get the dosage right, some people require high dosages.

I tried Dextroamphetamine up to 45mg (= 90mg racemic Amphetamine) which is a very high dose. The only effects I noticed, are sleepiness, attacks of mild unconciousness and "mind delay".

Methamphetamine is several times more potent than Amphetamine. Like I said, it's effective at even small doses - 3mg is often enough to stimulate normal people.

Anyway, I need *official* or *clinically/scientifically approved* data about Methamphetamine neurotoxicity @ *therapeutic dosage and usage*. Same about Addiction.

And I also need the official document for Desoxyn's FDA-Approval for ADHD.

Like I said in my first post, I need these informations/documents to get that government agency give me the permission to obtain Desoxyn. It is DEFINITELY legally possible to get Desoxyn in Germany. At least, that's my opinion.

I sent an email to FDA's drug division with the same questions a few days ago. The only things they gave me in their reply was the Human Prescription Drug Label @ DailyMed. I'll re-mail them again to get that stuff.

Question 1: Do you really don't have any useful approved data for me?

Question 2: Could Lundbeck give me the official FDA-Approval? Or are they out of charge?

By the way: How much dopamine (in percent) is released in humans during an amphetamine rush? Just a question of interrest...

M-2396

relax21
04-25-11, 09:54 PM
I think you should retry Dexedrine but try lower doses. To me, 45 mg is kind of a steep dose (but I don't know how long you were on it). for therapeutic dosing for ADHD, they are pretty much the same. 5-40 mg daily is typical for both Dexedrine and Desoxyn to treat ADHD, unless a patient develops tolerance which is rare unless it's taken very frequently for an extended period of time. Both Dexedrine and Desoxyn are well tolerated with children 6 years old and above. They don't pose an addiction, psychosis, or heart failure issue unless a patient is predisposed to a condition or takes more than prescribed.

If you had a bad reaction on Dexedrine chances are you'll have a similar bad reaction on Desoxyn. But everyone's different, who knows.

Morpheus-2396
04-26-11, 03:41 AM
I think you should retry Dexedrine but try lower doses. 5-40 mg daily is typical for both Dexedrine and Desoxyn to treat ADHD. They don't pose an addiction, psychosis, or heart failure issue unless a patient is predisposed to a condition or takes more than prescribed.


1.) Maybe, I'll try Adderall IR before trying Desoxyn - I'll discuss that matter with my doctor this week. Is 60mg (30mg in the morning and 30mg afternoon) an acceptable dose for Adderall? Since it's not pure Dextroamphetamine (25% levo-Amphetamine), the dose can be a bit higher than for pure d-Amphetamine I think.

2.) But back to Desoxyn: What about neurotoxicity? I need official/clinical/scientifical proof that there is no neurotoxicity @ therapeutic dosage & usage. And about addiction: You say, usually Desoxyn doesn't develop an addiction when used therapeutically - is there any approved data for that?

I don't want to annoy you, but the point is, *every* kind of data I get must be official or approved - because, like I said, I'll have to convince that damn agency:rolleyes:

M-2396

relax21
04-26-11, 11:38 PM
1.) Maybe, I'll try Adderall IR before trying Desoxyn - I'll discuss that matter with my doctor this week. Is 60mg (30mg in the morning and 30mg afternoon) an acceptable dose for Adderall?

Yes, 60 mg of Adderall is an acceptable dose. In the US under the FDA guidelines 60 mg is the maximum effective dose to be prescribed daily. You may find better more tolerable results by starting off on a lower dose and increase the dose 5 mg every week until you find a suitable dose. 60 mg is a high starting dose.

2.) But back to Desoxyn: What about neurotoxicity? I need official/clinical/scientifical proof that there is no neurotoxicity @ therapeutic dosage & usage.

At low therapeutic doses of Desoxyn there is no risk of neurotoxicity. People that use high doses frequently tend to have the neurotoxic issues. There's no risk unless abused, basically.

And about addiction: You say, usually Desoxyn doesn't develop an addiction when used therapeutically - is there any approved data for that?

From my knowledge there is no data to prove this, 100%. Methamphetamine and Amphetamine are both schedule II drugs and that comes with a very high risk of dependence and abuse. They both have black box warnings. As with any ADHD stimulant there is the possibility of addiction. However, addiction is uncommon when used as prescribed by a doctor. Addiction to Methamphetamine and/or Amphetamine is usually caused by frequent usage/tolerance, high doses, abuse/misuse of drug, family history of drug addiction, or patient history of abuse or addiction. Not something to be all too concerned with.

Please remember that Desoxyn is a rare medication to come by in the US. It's probably illegal in Germany for a good reason. When misused the effects of Methamphetamine on a persons physical and mental health are devastating. I will send you clinical studies, prescribing sheets, and basic information on Desoxyn tomorrow.

drose
05-08-11, 09:55 AM
If you don't mind, I would also like to see this information. Thanks!

collegewriter
05-09-11, 03:13 PM
I would very much enjoy reading any information on this subject as well. If someone could either post it or send it to me in a PM, that would be great!

KDLMaj
05-10-11, 05:35 PM
I have to be honest- stimulants are 90% effective for combined type ADHD. If you've run through them all *and* strattera...it's probably time to start looking into a different diagnosis.

dominil
11-16-11, 07:09 PM
If someone could pm me those clinical studies and other stuff that would be great

Thanks

Bouncingoffwall
11-23-11, 02:41 PM
3.) I don't say, I WILL be cured by Desoxyn, but in my opinion, its worth to try it, since it is the most potent CNS stimulant on earth. It's effective at even small dosages.


Meth is not the most potent stimulant on earth. That honor belongs to 4-methylaminorex or "ice" in street parlance.

And meth shows little to no evidence concerning neurotoxicity at clinical doses.

The studies showing toxicity are on rats taking 3 times the LD50 per kg of body weight. The speculations are purely based on recreational users whose lifestyles have a profound effect on their overall brain health (not sleeping for 4+ days, not eating or drinking enough water, using alcohol/other substances). There's just too many third variables to paint an accurate picture of the real deal with meth.

I won't go to the trouble to post specific links, but you could hit up PubMed for a lot of valuable evidence.

sarahsweets
11-23-11, 03:07 PM
Google is a wonderful thing ...