View Full Version : Did you hear?


mapster2
05-09-11, 09:17 AM
I heard that a couple of weeks ago the guy from CDC, who claimed that there was no link whatsoever between vaccines and autism, was arrested for money laundering and fraud. Anyone hear that? Gee, that must be a reliable study. The only link I can draw to the explosion of autism is that heavy metals seem to be involved, either by vaccine or environment. Agree?

Lunacie
05-09-11, 09:39 AM
I heard that a couple of weeks ago the guy from CDC, who claimed that there was no link whatsoever between vaccines and autism, was arrested for money laundering and fraud. Anyone hear that? Gee, that must be a reliable study. The only link I can draw to the explosion of autism is that heavy metals seem to be involved, either by vaccine or environment. Agree?

Nope, environmental causes may account for some of the growth in diagnosing Autism - but the largest factor is that doctors know more about Autism now. Instead of giving these children labels like "retarded" doctors are able to diagnose them and provide treatment for them.

mapster2
05-09-11, 10:16 AM
Okay, here's the doc. Don't you just love the truth?

Poul Thorsen, the principal coordinator of multiple studies funded by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) used to deny a vaccine/autism link was indicted on April 13th on 13 counts of fraud and 9 counts of money-laundering. The charges relate to funding for work he conducted for the CDC, which claimed to disprove associations between the mercury-based vaccine preservative, thimerosal, and increased rates of autism.


sNope, environmental causes may account for some of the growth in diagnosing Autism - but the largest factor is that doctors know more about Autism now. Instead of giving these children labels like "retarded" doctors are able to diagnose them and provide treatment for them.

Lunacie
05-09-11, 10:34 AM
What are you saying exactly?

We already know that the doctor who published the study claiming a link between vaccines and autism was proven to be fraudulent.

But you say that leaves you with the conclusion that the upswing in diagnosis of autism must be due to environmental toxins such as the heavy metals used in vaccines.

What is your point? Are you claiming that vaccines do, in fact, cause autism?


If so, my response was that we don't know what role environmental toxins play at this point, but research shows pretty clearly that there is a genetic basis for autism, which may be triggered or made worse by these toxins. But research has proven that the premise of that vaccines are the CAUSE of autism has been pretty soundly disproven.

mapster2
05-09-11, 10:47 AM
Are you a Dr., psychiatrist, pharma salesman? Why the unrelenting assertations and opinions?



What are you saying exactly?

We already know that the doctor who published the study claiming a link between vaccines and autism was proven to be fraudulent.

But you say that leaves you with the conclusion that the upswing in diagnosis of autism must be due to environmental toxins such as the heavy metals used in vaccines.

What is your point? Are you claiming that vaccines do, in fact, cause autism?


If so, my response was that we don't know what role environmental toxins play at this point, but research shows pretty clearly that there is a genetic basis for autism, which may be triggered or made worse by these toxins. But research has proven that the premise of that vaccines are the CAUSE of autism has been pretty soundly disproven.

mapster2
05-09-11, 10:49 AM
Studies like the one above?




What are you saying exactly?

We already know that the doctor who published the study claiming a link between vaccines and autism was proven to be fraudulent.

But you say that leaves you with the conclusion that the upswing in diagnosis of autism must be due to environmental toxins such as the heavy metals used in vaccines.

What is your point? Are you claiming that vaccines do, in fact, cause autism?


If so, my response was that we don't know what role environmental toxins play at this point, but research shows pretty clearly that there is a genetic basis for autism, which may be triggered or made worse by these toxins. But research has proven that the premise of that vaccines are the CAUSE of autism has been pretty soundly disproven.

Lunacie
05-09-11, 10:52 AM
Are you a Dr., psychiatrist, pharma salesman? Why the unrelenting assertations and opinions?

The wha...?

I'm just having a discussion with you here. That's what we do on a discussion forum, eh? :rolleyes:


Why can't you answer my question instead of trying to distract me with the inference that my opinion has no value unless I'm a professional, or is less than worthless if I'm a "pharma salesman"?


I'm honestly trying to understand what your point is in this particular thread.

ginniebean
05-09-11, 10:53 AM
This is spam!

tipoo
05-09-11, 10:53 AM
I heard that a couple of weeks ago the guy from CDC, who claimed that there was no link whatsoever between vaccines and autism, was arrested for money laundering and fraud. Anyone hear that? Gee, that must be a reliable study. The only link I can draw to the explosion of autism is that heavy metals seem to be involved, either by vaccine or environment. Agree?


Wow, just like that time those scientists were caught lying about climate change, therefore every study ever done on climate change in all our history is wrong. Right?


Hint: No.

This is just one dude. No study done on autism and vaccines has ever found a significant link. A tuna fish sandwich contains more heavy metals than a vaccine, and you probably eat more of those than get vaccines. The "explosion" in diagnosis has been attributed to widening criteria for autism, instead of classic complete non-verbal autism it is now a wide spectrum to diagnose from.

mapster2
05-09-11, 11:02 AM
Sounds more like a disagreement, than a discussion. If you reread my posts, they very clearly articulate my point. I would like to have a real discussion, with someone else.

What is your agenda? Mine is to inform what I do know and learn if there's anything factual. Now your turn to tell your agenda.



The wha...?

I'm just having a discussion with you here. That's what we do on a discussion forum, eh? :rolleyes:


Why can't you answer my question instead of trying to distract me with the inference that my opinion has no value unless I'm a professional, or is less than worthless if I'm a "pharma salesman"?


I'm honestly trying to understand what your point is in this particular thread.

mapster2
05-09-11, 11:10 AM
Where did you get the tuna story from? I'll get a doc on the levels of mercury in vaccines. I know it's extremely high. Also there are numerous studies that point directly in the direction of the many, many vaccinces given to kids today as opposed to years ago. Also, it a proven medical fact that mercury, lead and other heavy metals impede the growth of a forming neurological system, as in children. Seems like a good place to start to me.

Global warming is off topic and has no relevance to this subject. That was the "biggest" study of its kind ever done to conclusively end the debate and look at what it was. Why would someone bribe him to hide the facts if the facts were there to start with?


Wow, just like that time those scientists were caught lying about climate change, therefore every study ever done on climate change in all our history is wrong. Right?


Hint: No.

This is just one dude. No study done on autism and vaccines has ever found a significant link. A tuna fish sandwich contains more heavy metals than a vaccine, and you probably eat more of those than get vaccines. The "explosion" in diagnosis has been attributed to widening criteria for autism, instead of classic complete non-verbal autism it is now a wide spectrum to diagnose from.

Lunacie
05-09-11, 11:10 AM
Sounds more like a disagreement, than a discussion. If you reread my posts, they very clearly articulate my point. I would like to have a real discussion, with someone else.

What is your agenda? Mine is to inform what I do know and learn if there's anything factual. Now your turn to tell your agenda.


Hmm, your definition of "discussion" seems very narrow if it doesn't allow for disagreement.

Is Tipoo correct in saying that you believe the scientist that has been discredited was actually right?

As I said earlier in this thread, it isn't known at this time what role environmental toxins play in the causation of autism. What has been proven is that the study you mention has been discredited because of faulty methodology and faulty conclusions.

Another possible factor in autism is trauma or stress to the mother during pregnancy - like my daughter going through an F4 tornado during the first trimester of her pregnancy. However, I have some cousins who are also autistic whose mothers did not suffer such stress and trauma during pregnancy. No one knows for sure, but these are possibilities that are being explored by scientists.

tipoo
05-09-11, 11:10 AM
Sounds more like a disagreement, than a discussion. If you reread my posts, they very clearly articulate my point. I would like to have a real discussion, with someone else.


So your definition of a discussion means no one disagrees with you? We are discussing this, and we have a disagreement, they aren't mutually exclusive.

tipoo
05-09-11, 11:13 AM
Where did you get the tuna story from? I'll get a doc on the levels of mercury in vaccines. I know it's extremely high. Also there are numerous studies that point directly in the direction of the many, many vaccinces given to kids today as opposed to years ago. Also, it a proven medical fact that mercury, lead and other heavy metals impede the growth of a forming neurological system, as in children. Seems like a good place to start to me.

Mercury is found especially in seafood like swordfish and tuna; a tuna sandwich contains much more mercury than a typical vaccine dose.

http://www.urmc.rochester.edu/news/story/index.cfm?id=160

ginniebean
05-09-11, 11:13 AM
I saw some documentation that the Scientologists black mail those who would recant. Many former scientologists have said so.

The information they get to blackmail people with is from scientology 'therapy' sessions.

Ethics are a well documented problem.

mapster2
05-09-11, 11:13 AM
If they're just spouting endless opinion, or disagreeing for the sport of it, it's a waste of time. Who cares? If they have documentation to support it, I'm interested. That's called an intelligent conversation. That's what I enjoy.



So your definition of a discussion means no one disagrees with you?

puddlediver
05-09-11, 11:14 AM
Are you a Dr., psychiatrist, pharma salesman? Why the unrelenting assertations and opinions?

are YOU a dr. or psychiatrist? why the unrelenting assertatrions and opinions?

Lunacie
05-09-11, 11:14 AM
Where did you get the tuna story from? I'll get a doc on the levels of mercury in vaccines. I know it's extremely high. Also there are numerous studies that point directly in the direction of the many, many vaccinces given to kids today as opposed to years ago. Also, it a proven medical fact that mercury, lead and other heavy metals impede the growth of a forming neurological system, as in children. Seems like a good place to start to me.

Global warming is off topic and has no relevance to this subject. That was the "biggest" study of its kind ever done to conclusively end the debate and look at what it was. Why would someone bribe him to hide the facts if the facts were there to start with?

Here's some information about the levels of mercury in vaccines compared to tunafish: http://www.urmc.rochester.edu/news/story/index.cfm?id=160

While mercury is known to be toxic in high amounts, scientists continue to debate the health effects of exposure to very low levels. Everyone on Earth has some mercury in the blood stream the chemical is present naturally, from the belching of volcanoes, and is also present in power-plant emissions. Everyone who smokes cigarettes contributes a bit of mercury to the air we breathe. Mercury is found especially in seafood like swordfish and tuna; a tuna sandwich contains much more mercury than a typical vaccine dose.

So wouldn't everybody have autism since everyone has some mercury in their blood?

ginniebean
05-09-11, 11:15 AM
I heard that Scientology pays for scientists and Doctors to pervert their professions in order to promote it's own brand of non-science. I've seen the documents.!

mapster2
05-09-11, 11:17 AM
Some people believe anyting, if it serves their purpose. I wonder what that purpose is?

More attacks, more signs of weakness. Stay on topic.




I saw some documentation that the Scientologists black mail those who would recant. Many former scientologists have said so.

The information they get to blackmail people with is from scientology 'therapy' sessions.

Ethics are a well documented problem.

tipoo
05-09-11, 11:18 AM
If they're just spouting endless opinion, or disagreeing for the sport of it, it's a waste of time. Who cares? If they have documentation to support it, I'm interested. That's called an intelligent conversation. That's what I enjoy.

I gave you documentation in my previous post. Where's yours?

ginniebean
05-09-11, 11:19 AM
Some people believe anyting, if it serves their purpose. I wonder what that purpose is?



Irony... funny stuff isn't it? hahahahahaha

puddlediver
05-09-11, 11:25 AM
you know, i did read an article on pubmed that the APA is trying to get autism removed from the DSM-TR-IV based on the fact that autism cannot be a real disorder because there is no way to test for it with a blood test :D

namazu
05-09-11, 11:25 AM
I heard that a couple of weeks ago the guy from CDC, who claimed that there was no link whatsoever between vaccines and autism, was arrested for money laundering and fraud. Anyone hear that? Gee, that must be a reliable study. The only link I can draw to the explosion of autism is that heavy metals seem to be involved, either by vaccine or environment. Agree?

Poul Thorsen is not "the guy from CDC". He is a Danish researcher (but probably won't be for much longer).

I agree that his actions in attempting to defraud the CDC of research money, if the allegations are true, are inexcusable and cast doubt on his integrity in both the research and personal domains.

That said, Thorsen is not the only researcher to have cast doubt on a link between vaccines and autism, and Wakefield, who hinted at a connection, has himself been roundly discredited.

Furthermore, removal of thimerosal from the MMR vaccine did not lead to a decrease in the incidence of autism, as would be expected if mercury in vaccines were a primary culprit. Refusal of MMR vaccine, however, has lead to outbreaks of measles and mumps among both unvaccinated children and children with compromised immune systems.

It is important to keep an open mind about the causes of autism, which has serious consequences for individuals and their families. Environmental factors likely do play a role in the development of autism in some cases, in addition to genetic factors. It is critically important to study and understand what these factors are.

But diagnostic factors also play a major role. Kids on the severe end of the spectrum, who might have been diagnosed as "mentally retarded" in the past, or those on the higher-functioning end who might simply have been dismissed as "odd", now receive diagnoses of autism that open the door to services at school. I don't think this can be dismissed as a major contributor to the increased incidence of diagnosis of autism.

mapster2
05-09-11, 11:36 AM
Mercury is still being added to vaccines at completely unsafe levels considering the fact that it is a known neuro-toxin. A recent study undertaken by the University of Calgary (http://commons.ucalgary.ca/mercury/) unveiled concrete evidence that mercury ions alter the cell-membrane of developing neurons in babies and young children, directly contributing to autism.

Here's some information about the levels of mercury in vaccines compared to tunafish: http://www.urmc.rochester.edu/news/story/index.cfm?id=160



So wouldn't everybody have autism since everyone has some mercury in their blood?

Lunacie
05-09-11, 11:37 AM
you know, i did read an article on pubmed that the APA is trying to get autism removed from the DSM-TR-IV based on the fact that autism cannot be a real disorder because there is no way to test for it with a blood test :D

Not exactly. They are removing the diagnosis of Asperger's Syndrome and PDD-NOS (pervasive developmental disorder not otherwise specified).

Well, actually they are merging Asperger's and PDD with Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD) as the concensus tends towards Asperger's and PDD being part of the overall spectrum. It has nothing to do with blood tests to confirm or rule out the disorder.

Lunacie
05-09-11, 11:43 AM
Mercury is still being added to vaccines at completely unsafe levels considering the fact that it is a known neuro-toxin. A recent study undertaken by the University of Calgary (http://commons.ucalgary.ca/mercury/) unveiled concrete evidence that mercury ions alter the cell-membrane of developing neurons in babies and young children, directly contributing to autism.

Well, I guess we'd better stop eating fish or breathing air or doing any of the other things that are bringing mercury into our bodies. I hope someone can tell me how to do that because I don't have a clue.

Again, I'm not arguing that we don't really understand the effects of environmental toxins on our brains. We only know that the research that you presented in your OP was proven to be unreliable and faked.

tipoo
05-09-11, 11:47 AM
What on earth just happened to the forum code?

Lunacie
05-09-11, 11:54 AM
What on earth just happened to the forum code?

I guess mapster broke it. Bad mapster!

Nifferka
05-09-11, 11:57 AM
Some people believe anyting, if it serves their purpose. I wonder what that purpose is?

You poor thing. Are they forcing you to pick fights with people living with neurological disorders? Are you being blackmailed? Do you really just wish you could escape it all? :(

Or are you just lonely and want to argue with someone, for the stimulus of interaction? There's help out there for you, I'm sure. Someone cares about you, and doesn't want you to feel so angry all the time. :)

I really hope you find the help you need. In the meantime, maybe lay off attacking members of a support forum? Or you could look around some more and try to understand where we're coming from, so you'll be able to debate with some better results.

sighduck
05-09-11, 12:43 PM
Last edited by Nifferka; Today at 05:58 PM.. Reason: I'm impulsive.

hmmm, i wonder what it looked like before editing o.0

tipoo
05-09-11, 01:07 PM
I addressed the mercury thing, now for the explosion in diagnosis

http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/68/5/459

http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2011/05/autism-epidemic-more-likely-were-just-better-at-diagnosis.ars

The rate of apparent diagnosis also suggests that autism has been historically under-diagnosed, and may have been present at roughly its current rates for a long time.

mapster2
05-09-11, 01:17 PM
If you're happy taking drugs, then take them. I'm more appealing to those searching for safe, alternative solutions.


You poor thing. Are they forcing you to pick fights with people living with neurological disorders? Are you being blackmailed? Do you really just wish you could escape it all? :(

Or are you just lonely and want to argue with someone, for the stimulus of interaction? There's help out there for you, I'm sure. Someone cares about you, and doesn't want you to feel so angry all the time. :)

I really hope you find the help you need. In the meantime, maybe lay off attacking members of a support forum? Or you could look around some more and try to understand where we're coming from, so you'll be able to debate with some better results.

mapster2
05-09-11, 01:24 PM
Doing any investigation, you first look for changes prior to the situation. That would rule out genetics. You have high concentrations in certain geographic regions. This would lean towards environmental issues. You also have the vaccine issue which has only been made more suspect after the recent cover up. I don't have any conclusive answers. Wish I did. I know many friends with autistic kids. It's a shame. However, in my opinion, the environmental and vaccine both have the commonality of heavy metals, which have been proven to impede the growth of the cnetral nervous system in children. If I were Columbo, I wouls start there. Prevention is the most important aspect if we arer to curb the epidemic.




Poul Thorsen is not "the guy from CDC". He is a Danish researcher (but probably won't be for much longer).

I agree that his actions in attempting to defraud the CDC of research money, if the allegations are true, are inexcusable and cast doubt on his integrity in both the research and personal domains.

That said, Thorsen is not the only researcher to have cast doubt on a link between vaccines and autism, and Wakefield, who hinted at a connection, has himself been roundly discredited.

Furthermore, removal of thimerosal from the MMR vaccine did not lead to a decrease in the incidence of autism, as would be expected if mercury in vaccines were a primary culprit. Refusal of MMR vaccine, however, has lead to outbreaks of measles and mumps among both unvaccinated children and children with compromised immune systems.

It is important to keep an open mind about the causes of autism, which has serious consequences for individuals and their families. Environmental factors likely do play a role in the development of autism in some cases, in addition to genetic factors. It is critically important to study and understand what these factors are.

But diagnostic factors also play a major role. Kids on the severe end of the spectrum, who might have been diagnosed as "mentally retarded" in the past, or those on the higher-functioning end who might simply have been dismissed as "odd", now receive diagnoses of autism that open the door to services at school. I don't think this can be dismissed as a major contributor to the increased incidence of diagnosis of autism.

Kaimei
05-09-11, 01:47 PM
Doing any investigation, you first look for changes prior to the situation.

I didn't realize you had so many threads going on - that's kinda cool. The Bard has a lot of pieces - I'm pretty sure we can keep the literary discussion going in several different directions, not just in the Science and ADHD thread.

I think the first statement there could apply to a lot of Shakespeare's works...but I think maybe...this autism debate could be easily compared to A Winter's Tale. When the son starts acting strangely, Polixenes does exactly that - starts looking for the changes prior to the situation.

It's the underlying beliefs that make a Winter's Tale most appropriate to the autism/vaccine theory though - vaccines are generally regarded as a beneficial act. We give them to our children in an effort to protect them - we have the best of intents, even though the results are harmful. Polixenes also has his son's best interest at heart - you could say his persecution of Cymbeline is his 'vaccination'. Her flight to Sicily - taking Bertram with her - would be the negative result - i.e. the autism.

So harm done with the intent to help...maybe this works?

...will poor folks lie;
That have afflictions on them, knowing 'tis
A punishment or trial? Yes, no wonder,
When rich ones scarce tell trues to lapse in fulness
Is sorer than to lie for need; and falsehood
Is worse in kings than beggars.

As I read this one, Cymbeline is tackling the moral difference between a lie based in genuine fraud versus a lie with a basis in genuine misunderstanding, or a misguided attempt to benefit the person who is being lied to. The lie, clearly, is the vaccine. So is Polixene genuinely evil, since he has Bertram's best interest at heart, or is he forgivably misguided?

There's a twist, revelation, and unveiling in a Winter's Tale that does bring it to a generally happy ending. What's the parallel here? Clearly you've got the comprehension of the autism/vaccine situation here - so what's the real life, modern day analog of the happy resolution?

I'm not sure I was entirely following your point on the autism debate, though, so I may have drawn an inappropriate conclusion on this one. Is there a better one that you can draw? Or maybe you can help me out with a little clarity on your point of view, so that I can keep our discussion going with better understanding. Like I said, I love a good, meaty conversation with someone who has a really keen intellect and a similar literary background that I have, so I'd hate to let this one drop because I missed your point.

Lunacie
05-09-11, 02:04 PM
If you're happy taking drugs, then take them. I'm more appealing to those searching for safe, alternative solutions.

Hm - I must have missed the posts where you shared information on alternatives to medications for neuro-biological disorders. Do you know of any that have scientific backing as their effectiveness and safety?


And if this funky thread gets any funkier we're going to be reading it
one
word
at
a
time.
:p

I think you need to start a new thread that isn't broken.

julesjampot
05-09-11, 06:46 PM
I have just read your posts and can see why you have no thanks to any of your posts ,what does that say to your point of view
Sorry eveyone this is to Mapster

EYEFORGOT
05-10-11, 05:10 AM
This kind of thread is not appropriate for a support forum. All it has done is upset people who tried to answer it helpfully, who started to have a reasonable discussion based on the OP. It is now closed.

I highly recommend that the OP finds a more appropriate site to debate his opinions.


I heard that a couple of weeks ago the guy from CDC, who claimed that there was no link whatsoever between vaccines and autism, was arrested for money laundering and fraud. Anyone hear that? Gee, that must be a reliable study. The only link I can draw to the explosion of autism is that heavy metals seem to be involved, either by vaccine or environment. Agree?