View Full Version : Thorn


EddieTh4
06-24-11, 06:06 PM
Many persons on here may not be believe in God or the contents of The Bible...I respect that. It's honestly hard for me to 'believe' sometimes. That said...I just wanted to put this passage out there as a POSSIBLE (I repeat, possible) explanation to the issues many of us face with this disorder.......

2 Corinthians 12:7-10 - "...Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9 But he said to me, ďMy grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.Ē Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christís power may rest on me. 10 That is why, for Christís sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong."

Granted, many of us are probably receiving incredible 'revelations' from God...but I do know that the more successful I seem to be in life (i.e. financial and social growth) the more conceited I become, like the apostle Paul. Anyone else experience similar feelings?....

StoicNate
06-24-11, 06:35 PM
That sounds like one of those bible pushers. Don't try to convert anyone on here.
By the way I'm an Atheist and your post is getting under my skin.

I think there's a rule on this site about religion and not discussing it here.

EddieTh4
06-24-11, 06:49 PM
Thanks for responding StoicNate! I honestly didn't intend to try to 'push' the Bible's contents on you or anyone else! I really just wanted to get ideas from some who might have read that passage in the past and how it might relate to our symptoms of ADD. Again...I certainly respect those who choose not to believe in what the Bible says. NO ideas being 'pushed'. :)

Kaimei
06-24-11, 07:37 PM
I actually talked this over a bit with my guy before responding - he's Christian, I am not. However, I do respect the fact that people can find comfort, solace, and encouragement in their respective beliefs.

Conceit born of success, yes, I can follow you there. Now, if we were all wildly successful, without any neurological, psychological, or physical handicaps - yet we kept being tripped up by things that kept us from getting too full of ourselves, sure. This might apply.

But...I am struggling to actually see how this fits as an 'explanation' for our 'issues.' That seems to imply that this is....what? A preemptive disorder inflicted upon us by a deity to keep us in our place? A punishment?

What of us who have struggled since childhood, who never had a chance to succeed because of ADHD or related issues? How does this fit them? What of us who would be perfectly content just being able to have a 'normal' life - just a decent place to live, family members who are healthy and happy, and never 'aspire' to accumulating mass amount of money, or fame, or power? Many of us would be happy just to have a day without stress, anxiety, forgetfulness, and chaos. Most of us would just like to function 'normally' for a week, a day, an hour at a time. That's an aspiration - is that too high?

The idea that we're punished, tormented, or chastised from birth because we are born as inherently weak, flawed, and morally corrupt creatures is one of the most profoundly disturbing and sickening religious concepts to permeate through our culture. So is the idea of a deity who is constantly inflicting retribution for success.

Spacemaster
06-24-11, 07:38 PM
I don't think any religious pushing was intended, and simply posting a passage from the Bible doesn't qualify as pushing. I think many ancient and new religious texts have a lot of wisdom to offer, whether or not you believe in the religious aspect. I'm not a religious person, but lately the Tao Te Ching has inspired me lately, there's a lot of wisdom to be found in eastern philosophy. I think there's wisdom to be found in the Bible as well, a lot of people automatically recoil from the Bible because of some extreme followers, but it does contain some gems. In some passage in Leviticus, it instructs a man to bathe after having personal happy fun alone time. Well, that's some pretty useful advice I think! Ok I'm starting to lose focus here. I understand the thorn thing. I'm going through a major "why me" phase right now, I'm trying to get out of.

StoicNate
06-24-11, 07:47 PM
The only thing I believe in is Mother Nature (Natural things around me: Trees, grass, birds, animals, etc).

I don't care about any man made gods. They do more harm than good. (See history of wars)

Kaimei
06-24-11, 07:54 PM
The only thing I believe in is Mother Nature (Natural things around me: Trees, grass, birds, animals, etc).

I don't care about any man made gods. They do more harm than good. (See history of wars)

I don't suppose you've read Richard Dawkins?

StoicNate
06-24-11, 08:18 PM
I don't suppose you've read Richard Dawkins?

I've actually never read any of his books.
Does me being an Atheist mean that I've had to read his books to become an Atheist?

I loved Nature since I was a child, same with never believing in any gods.

My whole family is religious. But from an early age I just disagreed with what religion is preaching. I don't like the dogma.

Turbochica
06-24-11, 08:41 PM
I've actually never read any of his books.
Does me being an Atheist mean that I've had to read his books to become an Atheist?

I loved Nature since I was a child, same with never believing in any gods.

My whole family is religious. But from an early age I just disagreed with what religion is preaching. I don't like the dogma.

I respect that you are an atheist. If you had posted a particular qoute from an author that is an atheist, I gladly would read and respond to it and discuss it without feeling like I was being marketed your atheism. Rather, I believe we could have a lively discussion and exchange of ideas. :)

StoicNate
06-24-11, 09:28 PM
I didn't have to read books to realize that I didn't like religion or believed in gods.

I'm not good at discussions anyway. I go straight to the point.

Trooper Keith
06-24-11, 09:30 PM
Why is this in the career section?

Trooper Keith
06-24-11, 09:39 PM
Many persons on here may not be believe in God or the contents of The Bible...I respect that. It's honestly hard for me to 'believe' sometimes. That said...I just wanted to put this passage out there as a POSSIBLE (I repeat, possible) explanation to the issues many of us face with this disorder.......

You cannot possibly put out a Bible passage as a possible solution for something without foisting upon people the entirety of the belief structure. Especially not a Corinthians passage, which assumes the underlying mythological structure as true. That said, I will happily respond to your post.

2 Corinthians 12:7-10 - "...Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. 10 That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong."

I want to be sure I am clear on what you are saying here: are you proposing that God has given us a "thorn" called ADHD, which is a test of our faith?

And are you honestly proposing this as a possibility without thinking that you are actually foisting the entire structure of Christianity upon people? This thread might as well be called "Proselytization."

By way of testing your faith, let me ask you this: why is it that you think this passage explains ADHD? Doesn't this passage, in fact, make a broad reference to everyone's problems? And, if so, what would you propose is the reason for God granting us an additional thorn that is greater than the thorns of most? Do we need to be especially pious as a result?

I guess I'm failing to see what the hell you're talking about. You fail to make a coherent connection between ADHD and this passage. Your argument is essentially this:

ADHD.
Corinthians.
:. ADHD and Corinthians.

Notice how this fails to make a causal relationship? It's technically logically cogent, but doesn't draw a meaningful connection.

A similar argument might be as follows:

ADHD.
Green elephants.
:. ADHD and Green elephants.

This argument is as meaningful as yours.

Granted, many of us are probably receiving incredible 'revelations' from God...but I do know that the more successful I seem to be in life (i.e. financial and social growth) the more conceited I become, like the apostle Paul. Anyone else experience similar feelings?....

I'm not sure what you mean by this?

mctavish23
06-24-11, 09:40 PM
You could hypothetically make the case for any disabling condition.

Sometimes life feels like I'm doing an imitation of Job,other times not.

I don't mix religion & politics in my practice.

What I tell people in my personal Informed Consent, is that you've come

here (community mental health center) to see a Clinical (Child & Adolescent)

Psychologist,or if the referral is about ADHD,which it usually is, who also

specializes in an Evidence Based ADHD practice.

I simply won't mix religion & politics.

So as to any possible "connection," with specific verses, I'd venture they'd be

"generic" in their hypothetical "carryover" to any other type of "trials & tribulations."

tc

mctavish23

(Robert)

EddieTh4
06-24-11, 09:40 PM
I very much appreciate all of the feedback and exchanging of beliefs and ideas on this thread. The time, effort and thought you've all put into your responses. I didn't mean to offend you at all Nate...sounds like you may have had to go through a lot in relation to your family and your differing beliefs. And I truly mean it when I say I can understand not wanting to be a part of organized religion! I struggle at times with my faith, but I personally feel lost and alone if there's not someone more powerful than my friends and fam who can help me....

Kaimei...wow, I love the thought process you apparently went through and laid out for us (again I love everyone's thoughts)! :-) I realize on the one hand it would seem as though God were punishing us for simply wanting to lead normal and only somewhat 'successful' lives, but I know for me...I've NEVER been 'rich', yet at times when I experienced even a relative amount of success in various areas of life, my head would seem to 'blow up', as it were.... It really didn't take much. I would imagine the apostle simply wanted to be 'normal' and not continually 'smacked around' by his thorn...nevertheless, he realized apparently that he would let other blessings (revelations) go to his head and forget the way God wanted him to view things if his particular problem was removed.... What do you guys think?

You also mentioned it having started (like for myself as well) early in life. The only thing I can say to that is God of course knew that trait of being easily conceited was there and would introduce itself even prior to adulthood. I remember yelling like a crazy person in my gym class in junior high school. He was on my team and I didn't feel he was making any effort to help us win and I was probably the best player on our stupid little team at the time. This is just one example. I'm not saying this Bible passage applies to everyone with ADD...I'm just saying I can relate very much to it and wondered if anyone else thinks God may be supressing potential conceit to help them be a better person in general and show off His ability to provide in spite of the thorn.... ;-)

Kaimei
06-24-11, 09:41 PM
I've actually never read any of his books.
Does me being an Atheist mean that I've had to read his books to become an Atheist?

No, and I wasn't trying to imply that it's required reading for all atheists. I'm not an atheist, but I've read Dawkins, along with dozens of other books on religion, philosophy, and beliefs. I was merely curious, and your comment about loving Nature reminded me of some of the quotes and excerpts he had in one of his books. They were from people who expressed a deep appreciation for Nature that was as profound as any religious faith. I happened to think that they were beautifully written, so I wondered if you'd seen them too.

Kaimei
06-24-11, 10:36 PM
I'm pretty sure we're all going to get tapped on the shoulder by a moderator pretty soon, since this should really be in the debates forum rather than careers...though I suppose one could argue that, from a Christian standpoint, it could kinda sorta be a job. Fulfilling Jesus' "Great Commission" and all that.

Anyway.

I would imagine the apostle simply wanted to be 'normal' and not continually 'smacked around' by his thorn...nevertheless, he realized apparently that he would let other blessings (revelations) go to his head and forget the way God wanted him to view things if his particular problem was removed.... What do you guys think?

...

I'm not saying this Bible passage applies to everyone with ADD...I'm just saying I can relate very much to it and wondered if anyone else thinks God may be supressing potential conceit to help them be a better person in general and show off His ability to provide in spite of the thorn.... ;-)

First of all, there's a whole, huge world of difference between an apostle and an ADHD sufferer. If your god wants to send messages to Earth, and has to smack his chosen messengers around to keep them in line, that's his business, and theirs. Most of the time, you read about how grateful and ecstatic these messengers are - they are suffused with their faith, love of their god, etc. It's a blessing to them to be chosen for this task. They're willing - happy even - to die for their beliefs. Most of them don't really seek to rise above their 'place' - the problem comes when other people try to elevate them.

However - I'm not an apostle. If a god came to me and told me "Heal the sick, and tell them the Kingdom of God is near you" I'd have a pretty clear idea of what I ought to be doing here, and I'd go do that. A god has now told me what to do, and what to think. The answer to life, the universe, and everything has been given to me.

But instead, I am trying to live my life and be happy. ADHD is and has always been preventing me, and many others, from doing just exactly that. No ego involved. No arrogance, no big head - I'd just like to remember where I put my coffee cup and whether or not I fed my dog before I left for work. I am grateful enough for the good, positive things in my life. I do not need someone to smash my toe with a hammer just to remind to be grateful for the times I'm not in pain. I don't need ADHD to remind me to be grateful every time I remember where I left my keys. Besides, what about the people who don't have ADHD? How does god remind them to be humble? Cancer?

Besides, if I was really supposed to be suffering from ADHD, if I was destined by god from birth to deal with this, I'd have been pre-assigned an allergy to Adderall, too. If god's plan was for me to suffer - I'd be suffering, regardless of the entire medical field.

And what would be the purpose of that, anyway? Am I supposed to love, honor, and worship a god who uses pain to force me to behave a certain way, even though, ultimately, he created me exactly as I am? What reason would a god have to give me both conceit, and then ADHD just to balance it out? Why not....just leave them both out? If the ADHD is put there for the sole purpose of counteracting the conceit, why give me either one?

Why does a god 'need' us to be anything? Shouldn't a god be free of needs? If we are, indeed, born in original sin, corrupt from the moment we arrive, why create us? Why would a perfect being create inherently imperfect people, then get angry and condemn us when we failed to be perfect? Why would he make something a part of our nature, then inflict pain upon us so that we would learn to suppress it?

If you think you need ADHD to remind you to be humble, hey, that's fantastic. There's your silver lining - take it! Whatever it takes to help you get through the day as the person you want to be. But I personally find the idea of god giving some people disorders specifically to test or punish them to be repugnant. I'm not anti-Christian, by any means - most people here know I'm dating a Christian, and it's a very healthy, happy relationship. However, the general idea of the Christian version of 'god' has gotten very twisted, and if you start looking at some of the deeper meanings behind some beliefs, they start looking very ugly and domineering. Not at all like a kind, just, and loving deity.

StoicNate
06-24-11, 10:42 PM
Anybody that thinks a god is talking to them might be Schizophrenic...just saying.

tired1823
06-24-11, 10:50 PM
I am relieved to read this post. I often have a thorn in my side, whether it be a bad situation I am in or.. whatever is just making things bad at the time...
this just reminds me that it being there isn't pointless. Although I wish the pain weren't there, because it holds me back, I know it gives me a lot of strength in some situations. Strength that is useful to others and has a purpose in this world. So, going through the pain that seems to be stuck there is not endured for nothing.

I don't have a problem with being conceited. But I do have a problem with feeling behind and not being able to accomplish what I want and having the pain there for that reason or other reasons. However, I think this makes me strong, and being held back like that allows me to encourage, motivate, and comfort others, somehow.

Kaimei
06-24-11, 10:59 PM
I am relieved to read this post. I often have a thorn in my side, whether it be a bad situation I have myself in because of adhd.. whatever is just making things bad at the moment...
this just reminds me that it being there gives me a lot of strength. Strength that is useful to others and has a purpose in this world. So, going through the pain that seems to be stuck there sometimes is not endured for nothing.

This I can agree with - after I climbed out of the darkest pit in my life, I realized I'd found gold in it. It was a horrible, terrifying, traumatic time, but without it, I'd never have realized what I really, passionately want to do in my life - and that's to reach out to others who have fallen into the same pit, and cannot get out alone.

However, it's the idea that it was imposed on me by god that I find distasteful. That, and the idea that I'm supposed to learn to be grateful for it. The idea of a god punishing us for our own good and to make us be 'better' people is not going to make me feel anything remotely like gratitude and reverence.

tired1823
06-24-11, 11:04 PM
That's encouraging. glad to hear you found gold in that hard time.

In college, whenever I was going through a hard time, people would still look up to me and want to be around me and wouldn't notice I was so weak. It always was a surprise to me because I felt so bad and therefore bad about myself. I guess I had strength when I was in pain. But these last three years have been really, unusually difficult for me. I think my medication (that i'm now off of) had something to do with it. But, these last three years have been a terrible time for me. I know that something has got to come out of this time and the lows I feel like I hit. I have a feeling it will be in the form of advice I will be able to give people later in life, or something. But, "what doesn't kill you only makes you stronger" and carrying on the theme here "if He brings you to it, He'll lead you through it."

Sometimes I really can't help but see the good and the purpose hidden in the midst of my problems, as much as I can't stand the problems. I don't know if it's because I'm older or what, but lately the good in my problems has just been so obvious and undeniable. It's cool to understand something like that all of a sudden.

Turbochica
06-25-11, 12:03 AM
That was a hypothetical comment Nate.

I didn't have to read books to realize that I didn't like religion or believed in gods.

I'm not good at discussions anyway. I go straight to the point.

BR549
06-25-11, 01:07 AM
Okay, you look at this different ways and interpret it differently, if you take out the biblical references. Removing those, this could apply to everyone. Not just people with ADHD.

If I look at the verses in terms of metaphors, I see the verses could mean that things are thrown in our paths during our lifetimes that are painful, difficult and have the potential to weaken our mind and body. It's how we handle the situations we are placed in or deal with the obstacles, devastation, pain or whatever that is thrown in our path that determines whether we come out of our circumstances stronger or weaker. We sit around and blame others for our lot in life and wallow in self pity and misery, we can never get stronger because we can't see ourselves beyond our circumstances and our negativity. We will be stuck there forever and will never move forward. If we accept our circumstances, try to find ways to work with or around our obstacles we can grow stronger because we moved forward, found solutions and worked through our circumstances.

This is just an interpretation of how the OP is possibly saying that this is related to ADHD. We can choose to sit back and cry about our circumstances and how our life is, blame others for our lot in life or we can accept it, work with it and try to make our lives the best we can.

This may be totally off of the mark, but if you take out the biblical references, this is one way to possibly interpret it. I wouldn't say that this interpretation of the verses necessarily relates specifically to ADHD, but it could possibly relate to everyone when they are faced with adversity.

Again, this is just an interpretation. No right or wrong. I'm not voicing my beliefs or views. I'm just providing another perspective. So agree, disagree. It doesn't matter to me. ;)

APSJ
06-25-11, 02:43 AM
Please be aware of this section of the forum's guidelines:

This section is here to offer a place for members to discuss meditation and spirituality as a means of treating and/or managing their ADHD or other disorders.

Our goal is to offer a safe, supportive atmosphere for all members. We are a diverse group, coming from many different cultures, religions and backgrounds. It is important for us to remember and respect that. Therefore the following guidelines apply:

*The bashing of other religions, groups or individuals is not permitted.

*Evangelism is not permitted in this section. Share what has encouraged you, donít sell it. http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34038

ADDforums has a general prohibition on discussion of religious matters on the public forums, excepting in this section as described above.

Note that this section is within the 'Treatment and Management' subforum, and is for discussion of meditation and spirituality in relation to same. In other words, it is not for theological debates.

Members wishing to engage in a broader discussion of religious matters are welcome to visit our private debate forum here: http://www.addforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=277 where the ban on religious and political discussion does not apply.

PM a supermoderator if you would like access.

Kaimei
06-25-11, 06:01 AM
That's encouraging. glad to hear you found gold in that hard time.

In college, whenever I was going through a hard time, people would still look up to me and want to be around me and wouldn't notice I was so weak. It always was a surprise to me because I felt so bad and therefore bad about myself. I guess I had strength when I was in pain. But these last three years have been really, unusually difficult for me. I think my medication (that i'm now off of) had something to do with it. But, these last three years have been a terrible time for me. I know that something has got to come out of this time and the lows I feel like I hit. I have a feeling it will be in the form of advice I will be able to give people later in life, or something. But, "what doesn't kill you only makes you stronger" and carrying on the theme here "if He brings you to it, He'll lead you through it."

Sometimes I really can't help but see the good and the purpose hidden in the midst of my problems, as much as I can't stand the problems. I don't know if it's because I'm older or what, but lately the good in my problems has just been so obvious and undeniable. It's cool to understand something like that all of a sudden.

And I'm glad that you're likewise able to see good and purpose even when you're struggling with your own trials. Not everyone tries to see it that way. Personally, I've always found that to be something to be grateful for. As terrible as the moment is, I've never doubted that any experience would be wasted. They all have value. I wouldn't take back the darkest moment of my life, because then I'd never know to bring light into the lives of others.

Your line here - "if He brings you to it, He'll lead you through it." - this is much more in the spirit of what I see as finding solace or encouragement in religion. It doesn't imply punishment or unworthiness - just the simple, but powerful, belief that you aren't going through things alone. It's not punitive, it's supportive and nurturing.

Bluerose
06-25-11, 07:36 AM
I’m not a religious person but ten years of working on relaxation and meditation has me believing I am a very spiritual being.

Your post, for me at least, looked more like a spiritual beliefs enquiry and not a religious beliefs enquiry. Correct?

This is my take on your post based on my own personal spiritual beliefs.

There is no one punishing us or waiting to send down fiery rain upon us for our weaknesses. Consciously or unconsciously, we punish ourselves. Sometimes through ignorance (which simply means a lack of knowledge and or information) and sometimes through the guilt we feel for the things we have done as well as the things we haven’t done. We punish ourselves.

I believe it’s true that we gain more wisdom and strength from suffering than we do from pleasure.

As for conceit, it’s like pride and therefore quite simply a part of the human condition which we can rise above as we grow in personal and spiritual development.

EddieTh4
06-25-11, 12:41 PM
Yes Bluerose. No matter how much some would like to imply it...my intent was NEVER to try to inflict religious beliefs or doctrine or whatever onto other members!! I just figured that there might be one or more persons in this forum who maybe had read that passage in the past and would be interested in sharing their thoughts on it's possible relation to our disorder. I initially put it in the career section because one of the biggest areas in my life I'd like to have less affected by ADD is my employment.... I failed to relay that in the initial post, so I understand it being moved here and respect the decision and work of our moderators! :-)

Sometimes I just feel that despite whatever treatments I undergo and advancements I may experience as a result, I'll NEVER be able to feel secure in my employment, no longer feeling that I will be responsible for my termination. I've lost job after job after job because of a lifelong battle with chronic lateness, which my last therapist contributes to ADD. I'm always striving to counteract the effects of this disorder and will never give up in doing my very best...but part of me feels God may be trying to tell ME something and maybe one or two others affected by this....

tired1823
06-25-11, 04:39 PM
I wouldn't take back the darkest moment of my life, because then I'd never know to bring light into the lives of others.

wow... totally. This is strength. Thanks for that thought.

and about the quote..definitely... I try not to dabble in unsupportive unnurturing things (although I do :cool:) but, agreed. that's probably why religion is personal.. to some.. idk! no more talk about it. I don't know enough about it to argue at all.

Bluerose
06-26-11, 09:13 AM
Yes Bluerose. No matter how much some would like to imply it...my intent was NEVER to try to inflict religious beliefs or doctrine or whatever onto other members!! I just figured that there might be one or more persons in this forum who maybe had read that passage in the past and would be interested in sharing their thoughts on it's possible relation to our disorder. I initially put it in the career section because one of the biggest areas in my life I'd like to have less affected by ADD is my employment.... I failed to relay that in the initial post, so I understand it being moved here and respect the decision and work of our moderators! :-)

Sometimes I just feel that despite whatever treatments I undergo and advancements I may experience as a result, I'll NEVER be able to feel secure in my employment, no longer feeling that I will be responsible for my termination. I've lost job after job after job because of a lifelong battle with chronic lateness, which my last therapist contributes to ADD. I'm always striving to counteract the effects of this disorder and will never give up in doing my very best...but part of me feels God may be trying to tell ME something and maybe one or two others affected by this....



EddieTh4,

I'm not ADD but I am dealing with stuff, and relaxation and meditation helps a great deal. I do understand your enquiry and I only replied because it was in this section, in the other section I would have viewed it more as a personal life issue enquiry about, as you said, employment and career issues and wouldn't have replied. I agree that this is the right section for this discussion and if you are in agreement with the move alls well that ends well. :)

Now for the second part of your post. Remember I'm not ADD but I have read a lot about it on here and else where in an attempt to understand what my friends on here are dealing with. And I have to say that I can relate to a lot of the issues.

I'm a bit of a night owl, always have been and always will be. When I did work, rising in the morning was excruciating. And some younger members of my family struggle with the same thing today. Their solution, choose a job with the hours that suit you.

I don't believe God is trying to send you a message. I do believe however that you may benefit by taking full responsibility for your own situation. I mean that in a nice way. ADD is not going to go away, so your job is to incorporate it into your life and live accordingly.

Saying you will never be able to feel secure in your employment and do not feel responsible for your job terminations is wrong. You are responsible. ADD is a part of you, it's a part of who you are. And your daily life is partially based on the fact that you are ADD. Therefore, it is your responsibility to yourself to acknowledge that and prepare for it in your life in the same way someone with a heart condition would make lifestyle adjustments and prepare to live a simpler life. It makes sense and it is important. No offence intended. :)

I believe most of our problems come from the fact that we beat ourselves up on a daily based for simply being who we are. We so often get in our own way. Sometimes we just have to step aside and allow ourselves to go with the flow.

Going with the flow of our own natural energy and body clock sounds like an easy concept. And I have many adders coming back and saying it's not as easy as I make it sound. I know it isn't easy and I don't mean to make it sound easy.

In order to go with the natural flow of our energy we must do some soul searching, we must work on personal and spiritual development, in order to become more self aware and to learn about what works best for us. Once we figure that out, we can create the life we need, work and sleep in the hours that suit us best, and stop beating ourselves up for our 'laziness'. :)

mctavish23
06-26-11, 09:28 PM
I believe there's a "spiritual " difference between "Pain in the Butt"

and "Thorn in the Side." :rolleyes:

My interpretation is the difference is between my having "fun"

"bugging" someone by being (mildly) but humorously annoying,

but also knowing when to STOP (and make amends if need be)

vs

Taking someone or several individuals on, who are engaging in

deliberate unethical & incompetent practice in addressing ADHD.

If you know my story, then you'll understand the implications

"written" between the lines.

In that respect, I think this gives a new perspective to the term.

tc

mctavish23

(Robert)

SB_UK
06-27-11, 03:03 PM
explanation to the issues many of us face with this disorder.......

2 Corinthians 12:7-10 - "... That is why, for Christís sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong."

Suffering.
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Mara
[eg material] desire is a cause of suffering

An inevitable part of re-education -
- torn between 2 completely incompatible reward systems (see signature).

Suffering the pain of a re-alignment in priorities -
rejecting oneself - one's own initial set of priorities with mind.

A thorn which we ourself force into our own side with ever developing mind.

The thorn (suffering) is removed with freedom from desire.

As described by Barliman recently - the bible's devil can be seen as Buddhism's Mara.

anonymouslyadd
07-19-11, 04:01 AM
Kaimei...wow, I love the thought process you apparently went through and laid out for us (again I love everyone's thoughts)! :-) I realize on the one hand it would seem as though God were punishing us for simply wanting to lead normal and only somewhat 'successful' lives, but I know for me...I've NEVER been 'rich', yet at times when I experienced even a relative amount of success in various areas of life, my head would seem to 'blow up', as it were.... It really didn't take much. I would imagine the apostle simply wanted to be 'normal' and not continually 'smacked around' by his thorn...nevertheless, he realized apparently that he would let other blessings (revelations) go to his head and forget the way god wanted him to view things if his particular problem was removed.... What do you guys think?

I'm not sure where to take this. I feel like you are making a moral judgment against yourself (so common to ADDers) for feeling good about an accomplishment/accomplishments. In addition to this, you also compare yourself to Paul, and his personal battles with god. How are you interpreting this excerpt?

I chuckle inside a little to hear you talk about being "conceited." This is why I'm sometimes leary of the Scriptures. There is a lot of condemnation as well as language that can really impact me. I'm a big believer in using positive words to describe my behavior (ie selfishness---->taking care of myself). At any rate, I'm not laughing at you. I'm laughing at something I believe many, if not all ADDers struggle with, which is low self-esteem. So, if you did become conceited, would it be real? Would it really last? I think there are probably other words you could use to describe yourself.

I don't see the parallel you are drawing between an ADDer having ADD and Paul receiving his thorn. You're basically saying we did something wrong, and therefore, god had to do something to keep us relying on him. However, we did not do anything wrong unless you can come up with something you did in your mother's womb.

I think you hope to find meaning in your diagnosis and fit it into your belief system. I respect that, and given the amount of struggle an ADDer will endure, I hope you will continue.:)

As for me and my life, I'm not even on the same playing field as Paul. I continually work on not comparing myself, especially to someone who was given a normal brain and probably had superior intelligence. If I accomplish five things today, I'll be happy and maybe thank god. :)