OK this is the system they use on ADHD kids, like using tokens to give that instant gratification effect that's lacking for boring chores. It's a proven behavioral treatment for ADHD kids.

My shrink wants me to try that on myself like if I pay some bills or take care of some paperwork, I reward myself by doing something I enjoy so it's not as painful. That and breaking the task up in smaller manageable pieces.

The problem is, my procrastination is so profound, I can literally accomplish nothing for days or weeks at a time. It's really bad and has been this way for a couple years. I didn't used to be so bad when I had a regular job and life was more structured. On top of that I'd worked myself into some depression about it all so that I don't even do the things I enjoy, even the thought of going out for a hike or riding my bike seems like a chore.

So I fiddle around the house mostly multi-hyper-focus-tasking on the internet alowing myself to drift to & fro at every little whim as a way of avoiding actually doing anything keeping busy and not in the least bit bored. In a way that's a big indulgence so it's like I'm just on 24-7 reward and the whole idea of rewarding myself for doing chores seems preposterous 'cause I'm rewarding myself constantly.

One thought is that after doing a chore, I then force myself to ride the bike or some fun chore like that, even if I'm not into it at first, actually doing it will become fun. Problem is that sounds like a lot of work.

So what do y'all think about this? It's a really pathetic situation. I'm really not depressed any more though I suppose maybe to the extent that having fun sounds like a chore. It's really extreme laziness/distractedness/avoidance/indulgence. How to I break out of it?

Help!

PS I am very resistant to the idea of adding a more structured schedule to my life. Also this whole reward thing seems so phony, I'm having trouble taking it seriously.

hmmmm sounds like a great concept, but I guess it's all in how you carry it out....

Maybe if you had someone there around you who you live with that could monitor whether or not you get something accomplished and can "administer" the reward? I know this sounds general, but I guess with anything you can make it work for yourself in the way that does work....Hmmmmmmm let me think more on this

The only thing that seems to work is to have someone with me there by my side holding my hand through chores. I'm usually not that social and enjoy being by myself but maybe I can work out a way to work with people but still be self employed. It seems if I hired an assistant, that would structure things and take away the most boring tasks. Hard to make those changes though... hard to do much of anything!

an assistant would be neato if you can afford that.....might be something to consider.....hmmmm let me think more again

Ha ha, here's an idea my wife had for getting that little thrill of satisfaction when completing paperwork. There's a nice dynamic italic slant to the text on the stamp reading COMPLETED and it makes a nice clicking sound to stamp it down & a rich red ink!

She's so good about doing paperwork so she just loves this thing, I'm not sure I can be so easily fooled into doing boring stuff but I'll try it.

You could always pay HER to do all the paperwork :p

I actually talked my wife into helping hold my hand to get some tasks done & that has worked recently. I've been doing some big favors for her too (to be fair). But I'm so stubborn & her gentle reminders just make me grunt & ignore. And if I start whining doing thee task, it is more than she can bear. Ugh, why am I so difficult?

I can afford a part time assistant, especially if it's going to make me productive, it ought to pay for itself. But then that's just another chore finding someone to hire, etc. That's not one of those small tasks in nice bite size chunks. Maybe bring the coach back is more manageable in little bites. I will run out of money if I don't do something.

That's actually maybe a very good idea! I thought about it in passing. I think she might be very expensive though. I could show her how to use my accounting software & install it on her computer. Cash money for her plus I could commit to go out & do something fun with her also. We never get out much lately, so many excuses to stay home & be a slug.

Paulbf, I can completely relate with your profound procrastination lately. I am also worse than before these days and the same

"multi-hyper-focus-tasking on the internet alowing myself to drift to & fro at every little whim as a way of avoiding actually doing anything keeping busy and not in the least bit bored. In a way that's a big indulgence so it's like I'm just on 24-7 reward and the whole idea of rewarding myself for doing chores seems preposterous 'cause I'm rewarding myself constantly."-paulbf

The greatest way ADD manifests in my life is with procrastination. I have 2 small children & my husband who don't let me stay in the dream internet world for too long, so what ends up happening is me running around the last second doing everything I should have done the whole day-very high stress.
I do think that I would do better with a more structured environment as opposed to being home and having to structure it for yourself.

Anyway, enough about me.

Let me ask you, do you really feel that what you are doing is really a "big indulgence" and "24-7 reward"? It may feel like it because you give into those urges rather than working, but what reward are you really getting from it? I mostly just feel useless and guilty.

Maybe our procrastination is just like food & drugs are for many-an addiction-or at least a very bad habit-turned-lifestyle, which is very hard to break out of.

Maybe if we change our perceptions, and think of work as the reward (just think of how you feel when a job is done-sense of accomplishment-feeling human), and think of procrastination as the actual chore or the thing that stops you from "living". I am not sure if I am stretching it too far, but if you really think of it, it's true isn't it? I wish I could think like that myself. I really think so much is about how we perceive it.

I was at Barnes & Noble a few days ago, and read a really interesting excerpt from a book (I think it was either Hallowell or Ratey-"Shadow Disorders") and they said that idleness had been found to worsen symptoms of psych disorders. When schizophrenics were given work & felt productive, their symptoms improved. The opposite was also true. (I am not sure how well I have paraphrased what they said, but that was the general message).

So how do we break this cycle/addiction to procrastination. I have broken it a few times and ended up drifting back. When I did, it was hard. I whined and cried through some chores, but felt so good about myself afterwards that I kept going, and made that my habit.

Maybe we can form some kind of support group to gently push or encourage each other because so many people on this board have the same problem. I have also noticed that we are all such a smart group. We should use these brain cells to move us further, to figure a way to stop discussing theories, and do something that translates to action-to feeling good about ourselves. OK, i am getting quite passionate here, i know, but it is something I so want to get over too.
Who's with me on this?

Thanks for your words adina. That all sounds correct. THe book is "Shadow Syndromes" by Ratey & Johnson but I don't recall that discussion.

I suppose the answer is taking baby steps and having support. I'm on board with that. There is a peer coaching section here somewhere, but I've not ventured in yet. This sounds like the Workout threads which have been ongoing.

It just seems it ought not to be so difficult if I could build up the steam & do something.

So is it all in the motivation you think?
I also have to think about this more, or...
maybe I should just get up & do something,
and think less, because to some extent I already know what I have to do.

Just how to actually do it? Back to motivation. Shouldn't it be enough that my daughter is crying upset that I am not playing with her, and that my husband will be furious & disappionted when he comes home, and all is as he left it. i didn't even cook yet! Ahhh! ok, just ranting & venting-better do something.

Ahh! See this is my only motivation. I only have 30 min. to do the laundry, prepare dinner, and clean up a bit...Yeah, oh well, at least I will be running around instead of being on the internet.

get to work girl!

maybe start a back patting club tomorrow...

You're not too bad at back patting yourself. Got the cooking almost done.
Thanks

OK I'm gonna work on that job now.

----whiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnnnneeeeeeee---

Paul I have the same issues you have described. I'm not sure my attempts at more structure isn't just a way of implementing some differed gratification.

For what it's worth I feel pretty stupid making images of lists and dancing around with such simplistic trials. However my need to match my preconceived notions of what's appropriate with what I haven't tried in good faith has been diminished as my need to change has become stronger.

The knowledge that I'll have "goofing" time in an hour or whatever seems to allow me to relax a bit into the "chore" that I'm trying to get done. That's the only benefit from the extra structure I can see.

The hand holding is particularly prominent in my habits.

Why don't you want to implement any more structure in your life?
ian

Thanks Ian,
I'm just stubborn I guess. Hmmm structure as delayed gratification...

Maybe a combo of believing the work is the reward & looking forward to goofing time...

I did get a few hour of serious billable productive time in today and it was in fact rewarding. I got a headache but it felt good to do something.

Ok these may not all work for you, but hopefully you will find a few that are worth a try.
Probably the best advice I have gotten about dealing with ADD challenges is to work WITH your ADD. Don't try to fix it or overcome it using willpower. Work around it so that your resistance/fear doesn't start acting up.

1) Join a support group for entrepreneurs!!!

2) join a support group where members bring in their paperwork and keep each other company while they work on it. There is a group in Marin.

3)Get an ADD coach.

4)Take a micro-step. I hate paying bills, so when I get stuck, I force myself to just tear the envelope open. If thats all I can do for the day, I stop. Often just the teeny step is enough to get me to complete the task. But you have to be honest with yourself. Don't tell yourself you will stop after the micro-step if you really don't mean to stop.

5) Take your paperwork to a place where you have NO other mental stimulation. I find that if I have to wait for an appointment or stay on hold or ride a train, I am SO bored that I actually enjoy paying bills or doing any other tedious paperwork.I find that sitting on the floor of the bathroom with the constant humm of the fan is a good place to read. There is no phone, no computer, no distractions. The tough part is if you only have 1 bathroom in your house!

6) If you daydream a lot, use it to add some interest to the task that is difficult. One small day dream I use when I have to find something in my pile of paperwork is to imagine that I am a spy working for the FBI and that I have broken into a dangerous criminals office and I only have 1 minute to find an important document before he comes back into the room!!! Thank goodness these forums are anonymous :D

7) Hire a virtual assitant

8)Clear the entire top of your desk by putting everything in a paper bag. You can go through the bag later when your work is done. A clear and dust-free desk can really boost your mood.

9) Take your paperwork to a coffee shop where students go. They will sit for hours drinking coffee and doing homework.

10) Did I mention join a local support group for entrepreneurs?;)

Last idea is commit to trying something new. You never have to stick to anything you don't like and if none of the ideas sound good to you, work on some that you like. If choclate icecream makes you happy all the way to the bottom of your soul (like my husband)...eat icecream as you do the paperwork! Just remember to share with your wife!:)

I use the "micro step" to good end all the time. I have never called it that but that's what it is!
ian

:D lol moxee33! your #6 idea was cute. i actually do that too. while i am washing dishes i pretend my mother-in-law will be there any minute, so it gets me washing those dishes real fast.:D

6) If you daydream a lot, use it to add some interest to the task that is difficult. One small day dream I use when I have to find something in my pile of paperwork is to imagine that I am a spy working for the FBI and that I have broken into a dangerous criminals office and I only have 1 minute to find an important document before he comes back into the room!!!

I've done something similar ... with the theme from Mission Impossible running through my head! But like many of my strategies, this one always gets shot down by the intervention of my children... I don't think secret agents have to deal with that! (Perhaps I could pretend they're enemy agents trying to drive me to the brink of insanity...) :rolleyes:

Thank goodness these forums are anonymous! :D

Amen to that. ;)

I also think the micro steps are great.
I need them today. i have to organize my daughters' closet--little girls' clothes everywhere! help!
there are so many steps, and my perfectionist standards don't help one bit.

About perfectionism & procrastination, I wanted to add more about the role our perceptions play in this. i started a new thread on that because it was too long to add here, but i think it does tie in to procrastination.

I've tried some of those things, like cleaning up by tossing it all in a box--the problem is, I never get around to emptying the box, and then I'm tripping over this huge box of junk. My wife likes to clean by picking it all up and dumping it on the bed, where it sits until bedtime when it is scraped back onto the floor so we can sleep. :( I also have difficulty with the reward system--if I know there's some reward, I either raid the goodies ahead of time, or I reward myself partway through, and then never go back to finish.

i actually do that too. while i am washing dishes i pretend my mother-in-law will be there any minute, so it gets me washing those dishes real fast
You guys really crack me up! This has been the best part of finding out I have ADD. No matter how STRANGE I think my secret thoughts are, they're not weird to other people with ADD. I really love that!

I worked at my universities library for extra money through college. It was the worst job! It was like purgatory...the job never ended! Every day there were more carts of books to be put back, the cycle never ended. There was only one guy that never complained about the job. One day I asked him how he got through the boredom and he said " I imagine I am a slave and that I have no choice I have to build a wall and each book is a brick ". I thought he was a complete nut job. Now, I think he was actually really smart and probably had ADD.!!!:)

I've tried some of those things, like cleaning up by tossing it all in a box--the problem is, I never get around to emptying the box, and then I'm tripping over this huge box of junk. My wife likes to clean by picking it all up and dumping it on the bed, where it sits until bedtime when it is scraped back onto the floor so we can sleep. :(

I totally understand. I don't toss my clothes in a box because they get wrinkled (I don't care but my husband does) and the cat loves to sleep in a box of clothes! So if that doesn't work. Don't force youself to do it!!!! I think we've all had enough of that to last our whole life! Maybe this trick will be better...but again, if you don't like it..don't do it! There are tons of options that we usually don't or won't consider like use your lunch money to have the clothes put on hangers or folded at the laundromat. They may thing its weird that you don't want your stuff washed but WHO CARES!

Ok back to the closet...
Microstep 1-try taking all your hangers out of the closet that are not being used and either throwing them in a box at the bottom of your closet or hanging them at one end of the closet(the easiest end to get to). Stop here if you are getting bored.
Microstep2- Put all bottoms together and tops together. If you are into it...sort by type. All skirts, all pants etc. Stop anytime if you get bored.Come back teh next day or when you feel like it.
Microstep 3-Take the box or pile of clothes and each day hang up only as many as you can, while holding your breath!. This part is actually fun because it makes it a challenge and the lack of oxygen actually helps make it more stimulating somehow!
Come back the next day and try to beat the last days record.;)

This is the most important part. Think carefully about what it is you HATE about putting clothes away. Is it...

1)the closet is dark/ the light is a sad little bare lightbulb with a string
2) it has sliding doors that are hard to open
3) the sliding doors make it hard to see all your clothes ( I hate sliding doors)
4) its too small
5) its a good size closet but you have too much stuff
6) its full of clothes that you can't fit into, so you feel guilty when you open it.
7)your clothes are outdated and you hate them
8) the floors are cold and you hate standing on them
9) its dirty

Then use your fabulous ADD given creativity to make your closet the way you want it. It works a million times better than using willpower or negative self talk. :)

So is the conclusion that the reward system is probably not practical for a lazy adult? THat seems to be the general take.

BTW I apreciate all the ideas very much. Boy this thread got big quickly!

Just as with children, the reward will not motivate unless it actually is a reward for you. What should be the reward? More procrastination? Hee-just joking...
Why is it that fear is so much more motivating (mother-in-law)?:eek: :)

The thing is I'm an adult 40-year-old & I can & do anything I wish whenever I please & nobody can punish me either. I mean delayed gratification is part of it but it's also sort of the key to the problem, not the solution. Hmm, not making sense there. I like the idea of making the work the reward because a lot of this is stuff I really want to do, or at least I'd rather do it than take a regular job & submit to someone else's rules. It is difficult making those long term abstract goals motivate me in the short term though & that's my problem. I understand it but cannot feel it working. My wife can think about goals 5 or 10 years out & use that to motivate her through tedious tasks but that mechanism is broke in ADDers. Maybe another way to think is that the standard normal techniques are OK but we are just developmentally delayed so I am having to tech myself the good habits that most people learn when they are like 12 years old. Oh well, better late than never. But it still hasn't happened yet... waiting....

Anyways, I'm on a deadline now for this job & shouldn't even be discussing this.... back to work.

Generally speaking I'm a fine procrastinator. I actualy have a list of things to do right now..but this seemed so much more important.

Deadlines are good, but one thing that almost always works is the handholding approach someone mentioned. So if someone sits in the same room as I am, I can get much more done than if they are gone. And I"m single. Oh oh.

Anyway, in spite of the fact I loathe being monitored and controlled, I must say that someone acknowledging my work and ticking boxes off with me is really motivating.

Also, making agreements, if I say to a colleague, I'll get that done b4 end of day, then I make sure to do that, otherwise I would risk disappointing them and that would be bad. If you can hire a student, that's great cos it's cheeeeep and also you can delegate, plus you have to be a bit of a role model for them too!

Not sure if any of these apply to you but maybe...

Yeah kind of a buddy system seems good too. I'll try to do more collaborating with other professionals & the intern idea means at least I got to do something while they are working.

So is the conclusion that the reward system is probably not practical for a lazy adult? THat seems to be the general take.
Hmmm I wouldn't say that. It all depends on what you mean by rewards. What do you consider a reward? For me, buying things for myself has never worked. What have you tried in the past?

I am in the same boat. Sometimes getting stuff done gets easier, but I tend to do the less important things first at times. Which is not good when there's dedlines involved. I guess atleast I am accompliching something. Plus I will for example, go online, before I start doing my homework or what ever. I have 2 online classes so I'll go to fun websites at the same time, but usually get to side tracked for way too long.

Here's another fine example, I have to go to school tonight at 6 p.m. I still have to read a chapter, but here I am screwing around. For that class we end up going over everything we read anyway so it is just as easy to read it later. There a cheat sheet note and study guide the teacher posts online too. So all this readily available procrastinates me to actually do the reading. I am however, really greatful for these extra helps. Anyway to my point; so maybe if we don't allow ourselves to get sidetracked and do the stuff before we are rewarded the problem will be minimised. Sorry for my rammbling, I've got to get to studying. Sometimes it works to cut myself off from what distracts me in the first place. That way when I do go back to it I am rewarded.

I deffinatly agree with the idea for you to get an assistant.

I haven't tried anything. That was my homework from the shrink, she wants me to do some work then reward myself afterwards somehow. I don't know how to proceed with that.

Paul, find the least "painful" thing that needs to get accomplished, something that won't take very long....do it, then reward yourself with ....something......it might not seem so bad?

Yes that helps to just do the easy part first cause I get all worked up about how all of it together is impossible.

The only reward I can think of is to just go back to lazing around & goofing on the internet which just amounts to taking a break from the goofing while I work. Anything else sounds like I need to force myself to go out & take a hike or something. I tend not to do that partly because I'm too guilty for all the things I should be doing (sort of like depressed) & partly cause it's easier to goof around on the internet. I'm sure if I was more active & got my chores done, I'd be more likely to get out & do fun things also.

Should I force myself to do fun things?

ah, but if you get something done that you should be doing, then the reward shouldn't make you feel guilty.....

hmmmmm

I think you should force yourself to do fun things. I bet in the long run you will feel better. I know what you mean though. I always plan on going for a walk or taking a bike ride, and either forget or get side tracked. However, when I do get out and get some exercise I usually feel better all around.

Hi all, I just had to chime in on this thread because it hits very close to home for me too. The only thing (and i do mean the only thing) that works for me is isolating myself in a place with no computer. this makes me inefficient (i generally compose at the keyboard, and do a lot of spreadsheet work) but inefficient work is better than none at all, i suppose. fortunately i have a lot of autonomy at my job so nobody gets concerned if i'm not at my desk all day -- Paul, it sounds like you're in a similar situation. I usually hide out at a coffee shop with a notepad and a calculator...

obviously that doesn't work for all kinds of work -- it's not good for interacting with clients, for writing software/spreadsheets, etc. but it does seem to work for writing documents, which is a big part of my job. and the coffee shop is convenient for rewards as well! when you get your work done, you can reward yourself with a venti vanilla latte...

just my .02, good luck!
>Carl

The original post sounded so much like where I am right now. I've had a revelation recently that may help. The reason why I'm procrastinating is that I don't know what to do. Seriously, ask yourself, if I were to start, what would I do--what would be the first step? And the second, third, fourth...my biggest problem is when something goes wrong, and then I don't know where I am in terms of completing the task...so it doesn't get finished.

Here's what I'm doing about it:

+breaking down tasks into tiny sub-tasks, writing all the sub-tasks down, sometimes using project software, sometimes just writing it down. Do you have lots of post-its? Write a post-it note of what you are doing right now, then stick it on your arm to remind yourself when you get up to wander around the house. It will work.

+medication--concerta and ritalin were not reliable, but I was kept on them by crap psychiatrist who didn't believe in going off any medication sooner than 6 weeks...so I dumped the *******, got a new psychiatrist, and the day after tomorrow (second visit) he hopefully will prescribe something new...what medication are you on? it's obviously not working well enough, so tell that to the doctor and get the dose adjusted or just get a new medication...and if you're not on medication, that's the problem right there...and if your psych is crap or you can't see him/her often...that's your problem, too--get another.

+environment--right now I am at my family home (I'm 25), having returned from an extended time abroad. My God, it's not a good environment for me--I need a small apartment where I won't lose stuff, and where I don't have to walk on eggshells around other people. I think you should consider a different environment. I've always found that the more people I was sharing a house/apt with, the better off I was--you can't wander around the house all day without someone else snapping you out of it. So I'm looking for a new place, one with more people.

Hope some of this helps...I really do feel a connection with you. I know how hard it is--it really feels awful, like depression without the actual lowered mood.

Hi

I have read all the parts in this thread. Yes i am also in the similar situation. Come to think back again, it reminded me a story. When i was in primary school, about 9 years old most of the time i do not take school bus although i have paid for school bus fees, because i am late, and miss my school bus. Second issue is i had often awoken at 3am and suddenly recalled i forgotten to study my spelling and get my parent up at 3am to give me spelling and help me to study. Third issue is from 9 years old all the way to now even at my teens age, i am almost always late to school. I never really go there early and i always had to rush and run. So my time management really had caused me alot of inconveniences. I also had ocd at 8 years old and lasted until now. Now i keep washing hands. In the past i keep using something to bang my head. Although it is not painful entirely but they were serious enough to leave some bumps on my forehead. I had anxiety too. All these problems but yet i am taking no medicines.
Yes when i am alone i can never study. but if i am in a classroom i am no way different from my peers. I can motivate myself to study and work but sometimes a bit difficult to concentrate but still i am motivating myself to do what i should be doing. When i am alone...oh no......just like someone had mentioned.
I honestly like the part about using your imagination and pretending..have not really tried.

Being alone is something I am stuck with but seems to be a problem here for me too. I don't think many people see the problem as serious because I'm always plenty active when there is someone around.
hmmm
ian

I've been trying a different approach to deal with my procrastination issues as of late and have been having a bit of luck with it..many days, anyway. Since I'm usually wide awake well before the time I need to get up, instead of lying there tossing and turning, trying to get back to sleep (which I never do anyway) I roll myself out of bed and try to do as many things as I can before leaving for work. For me anyway, it seems to motivate me more for the rest of the day when I've chipped away at a few things early on and in a way it's a reward system of it's own making. I don't feel as hopeless at the end of the day. For me, all attempts to accomplish anything once I get home go right out the window, so for now, I'll try to stick with it. Weekends, however, are a total washout....too much unstructured time.

I offer my Husband chocolate before he does chores; wait 20 minutes and Voila`. Added to his meds, they put him in Hyper mode:D. Now he loves doing chores to get what he calls the "Dog Chocs". It works with him. I don't reward after, I just noticed by accident that dark chocolate makes him move, sooooooo, I used it to advantage. Now he's like Pavlov's Dog:D.

Chores are done, and procrastination is minimal. Just costs me a lot though!:p

~Viktoria

Ha ha chocolate! (grin)

The problem is I treat myself with chocolate any old time. My wife agrees the whole external reward approach is useless for me ore or less and the reward has to be the satisfaction of completing the task and having the burden lifted. Plus some interaction with other people as an external motivation.

If you can believe it I asked her if I could pay her to do my bills & she offered to do it for free! Woo hoo! We've done it a couple times so far, she sits at the computer with the Quicken software while I run around over her shoulder finding lost paperwork & explaining. Maybe in time we can get things organized enough that it's not too hard to hire someone to take over. Or maybe I'll even get used to it & be able to take over myself. In any case we'll be doing this twice a month & I'm getting myself dug out of this pit gradually, staying on top of things.

We also set up an inbox: one tray for important bills or notes about tasks that need to be done with the date they should be done by and another tray below for miscellanious unimportant junk mail & such.

Ha ha chocolate! (grin)

The problem is I treat myself with chocolate any old time. My wife agrees the whole external reward approach is useless for me ore or less and the reward has to be the satisfaction of completing the task and having the burden lifted. Plus some interaction with other people as an external motivation.

If you can believe it I asked her if I could pay her to do my bills & she offered to do it for free! Woo hoo! We've done it a couple times so far, she sits at the computer with the Quicken software while I run around over her shoulder finding lost paperwork & explaining. Maybe in time we can get things organized enough that it's not too hard to hire someone to take over. Or maybe I'll even get used to it & be able to take over myself. In any case we'll be doing this twice a month & I'm getting myself dug out of this pit gradually, staying on top of things.

We also set up an inbox: one tray for important bills or notes about tasks that need to be done with the date they should be done by and another tray below for miscellanious unimportant junk mail & such.
Paul, hahahaha! Treating you to chocolate would be a waste of time:D. BUT, tell your wife to buy you a lovely gift of a dozen or so folders. Name each one of them with a company name, eg "Electricity", "Internet"......and so on. Have one for "paid bills", and another for "unpaid bills".....from then on [after your massive assault on your desk which I know must occur firs:D], you MUST keep the right papers in the right folders;)

It works. I dare you to tell your wife this:p
~Viktoria

PS......Get A Bulletin Board!!!!:D