I just got back from the bookstore tonight. I read something disturbing. I picked up the book "The Einstein Gene" by Thom Hartmann. I flipped through it a little. I came to a page that caught my eye. It was a chapter on whether or not stimulant medications burn out brain cells.

Hartmann went on to say that further studies need to be done, but he notices in his ADHD adult patients who have been on meds for years, go off them and joke about getting old because of no short term memory.

Hartmann mentioned that some scientists claim that it burns out brain cells such as dopamine transmitters, and makes the brain atrophy. Hartmann didn't support the claim, but he is concerned about it. He would like to see more studies done.

Please correct me if I am wrong about the chapter as I only glanced through it. Maybe someone here has that book who can elaborate more.

I started a thread here a few weeks ago on my concerns about my memory loss. I have noticed that my memory has been really bad since I quit taking Adderall. I haven't taken it in a year, but I was on it for like two years. I mean, my memory is bad. My memory has been so bad that I feared I had early onset of Alzheimers.

What does everyone think? I am a medication supporter in the case of ADHD. In fact, I was getting on some for my classes. Now I am having second thoughts.

I've noticed a significant (all my perception) impact on my short term memory, after having been on a stimulant med for 12 years.

My short term memory is pretty crappy as it is. :D Let's hope Wellbutrin, which also acts on dopamine, doesn't do the same thing... now where did I put my keys? j/k Lol

Edit: Hmm, I wonder... maybe you notice a difference because the meds make your working memory better?

I sure hope not. I've heard about that atrophy thing and ever since I've kind of wondered what it was about.

I certainly know what you mean. I've thought about going off medication, but I'm afraid of what would happen. And like you said I probably wouldn't remember anything. I'm going to school now and so I don't dare give up the meds.

Someone in my class today was talking about amphetamines being linked to schizophrenia. My psych. teacher didn't really say much in response.

Dunno for sure about schizophrenia, but I kinda doubt there's much of a link there. There is something called "amphetamine psychosis," though. It is very rare at theraputic doses for ADHD as I understand, though. Typically those who come down with it are going to be abusers.

I have inattentive type ADHD. There is a natural amino acid supplement that Dr. Amen mentioned in his book, "Healing ADD". It is L-tyrosine. I am taking 400 mg. of Wellbutrin a day, so I am going to check with the doctor first. But I guess people have had some success with it. We'll see. There still is nothing quite like the stimulant meds. They clear up just about all symptoms of ADHD for me.

I think that people who go off their meds after taking them for years SHOULD notice a decline in certain thought processes...

You know what I've noticed is that the longer I've lived with the knowledge that I have ADD, the more symptoms I notice. I don't think that the ADD is getting worse. My self-awareness is greater.

People tend to be more forgetful as they age too.

Of course, I'm curious to know more about any damage that may result from taking meds but maybe there are other things causing the "problems."

I tried googling around about that on the net & couldn't find much. My (former) doc has used the term "burned out neurotransmitters" but it seems kind of a wishy-washy dumbed down way of talking.

I did find an interesting read here: http://au.geocities.com/jones_kacm/chem.htm
that is pretty readable explanation of some basic neurotransmitter actions in relation to Tourettes although not directly relevant it's the type of thinking that needs to be done to actually understand something like this, and more understandable than most without dumbing it down.

The basic notion I have that would support this burn-out theory is that the brain regulates it's own neurotransmitters and when you have a biochemical disorder that may be genetic or trauma induced and the brain is then not regulating things properly & functions poorly. Meds can be used to re-balance things to somewhat of a state of normalcy but: 1) meds are blunt tools, not very closely targeted, hence the side effects. 2) this could be seen to weaken the brain's ability to self regulate. Like taking sleeping pills gets you to sleep but when you stop the pills, sleep is even worse. Ideally we learn to regulate our own chemistry somehow. I do think there are also cases where the chemistry is so out of whack & we just can't get things balanced again & the meds at least give us a glimpse of what it's like to be normal and it's possible the body can "learn" from this & be able to go back to that state on it's own after a course of meds.

Hope I didn't ramble too far afield & some of that was actually relevant. I'd be curious of any more scientific terms referring to this "burn-out" thing, 'cause that's just too vague of a term to search on.

Oh, one other thought is that stress causes "burn-out" for sure. So if the meds are relieving some stress, that's reducing damage even if the meds themselves cause some amount of damage, it's matter of choosing the lesser evil perhaps. Unmedicated ADDers balance their naural stimulant deficit by being hyperactive to stimulate themselves so that is a non-drug solution. It's like a workout for the frontal lobes to get the juices flowing. So wouldn't it be better to try to be more hyper as a coping mechanism? Of course that's not going to go over well with parents of hyper kids but it may actually be good for them. It could take the form of more creativity or something similar.

That's really funny, Onwari, yesterday I stumbled across a web site that mentioned Dr. Amen. Something about Attend I think. It also said that there are 6 different kinds of ADD. I was quite suprised about that. Some of them sound like OCD, Bipolar and depression.

it seems to me that it'd be really hard to do a study that looked at stimulant medications as the cause for memory loss. it'd be very difficult to pull out all the variables associated with poor memory.

to start out with, poor memory is one of the hallmarks of ADHD, so, how would you quantify how bad your memory is v. how bad it was?

also, there is a long list of medications and conditions that list forgetfulness as a symptom. how would you even start to pull out all the variables of the cause of forgetfulnes?

forgetfulness is a symptom of normal aging. so, if your memory is poor to begin with, i imagine that getting old isn't going to help much.

"Detailed cause information for symptom: Forgetfulness:

Possible causes of symptom: Forgetfulness (55 conditions)
Medications or substances causing symptom: Forgetfulness (4 listings)
Medical conditions causing symptom: Forgetfulness (56 conditions)
Medical conditions causing complication: Forgetfulness (15 conditions) http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/sym/forgetfulness.htm

Wow...thanks for the input! My memory, despite ADHD, has been like a steel trap in certain instances. Now, my memory in those certain instances are gone.

I am going to school after dropping out 4 years ago. We'll see how the exercise brings that brain out of atrophy! You know, doctors say that the more people exercise their brain, the stronger it gets, and the stronger it gets, the chance of Alzheimers deminishes.

I will try the amino acid and see how that works.

Hey Paul,
Thanks for the site. Will have to read more later but this is what I'm taking from it now:
Cortisol is known as the “stress hormone”. ..When the body is stressed, the level of cortisol in the body ..e.g. .depressed people, alcoholics, those with panic disorders have higher than normal levels of cortisol...
cortisol has a negative effect on Tourette syndrome; that is, it makes tics worse...
(DHEA) is an “anti-cortisol” hormone ...DHEA has been known to have calming effects
...This means the brain is not getting enough DHEA. Howard suggests that tics are actually small seizures designed to stimulate DHEA production. How this works, he doesn’t say.

DHEA levels are known to start low in childhood and increase during adolescence to peak at about age 25. It is also common knowledge that Tourette syndrome often decreases in severity or disappears following the same pattern. DHEA then may be the reason for this decrease."

now to figure a way to suplement DHEA in 10 yr olds diet
thanks again!

Yep, cortisol, stress & DHEA sounds like another thing to research. No doubt I'm drenched in stress-bled cortisol & that's a lot of my problems. I have no clue how to treat that??? Probably excercise helps but I haven't been doing that in a while.

Not that I have Tourettes but they explain things so nicely.

I will try the amino acid and see how that works.
I take L-Tyrosine supplements and I think they work very well. I also function much better when I eat a high-protein diet and avoid processed carbs and sugar (much easier said than done, at times :o )

If you give them a try, I would be interested to see what you think about the L-Tyrosine supplements.

Hi,

Has anyone had any experience with mind machines (light and sound modulating the brain's alpha/beta/theta/gamma waves)
eg...http://www.voidspace.org.uk/cyberpunkproject/mind_machine.shtml
or nootropic compounds
eg...http://nootropics.com/
Both of these are meant to be beneficial for improving memory.

------------------------------------------------
On Stimulant medication and neuronal damage.....
------------------------------------------------
.....from another ADD forum and posted by an ADDer with a very pro-scientific approach to treating his ADD and given in response to my cross-forum post requesting info on tolerance to stims.

"Most of the data that I have seen indicates that free radicals and hyperthermia are the main causes of neuronal damage done by stimulants. Additionally, in animal models restraint stress exacerbates the damage.

The peroxynitrite radical seems to be the worst of the offending molecules and many common anti-oxidants will neutralize it. The most difficult part of amphetamine neuroprotection seems to be the hypothermia, so far the only thing I have seen to counteract that is melatonin. Although, I think if you are getting a hyperthermic reaction, then the dose is too high"

Fukami G, Hashimoto K, Koike K, Okamura N, Shimizu E, Iyo M.
Effect of antioxidant N-acetyl-l-cysteine on behavioral changes and neurotoxicity in rats after administration of methamphetamine.
Brain Res. 2004 Jul 30;1016(1):90-5.
PMID: 15234256

If anyone wants any more details on the above -- I think my Institute has access to full text on Brain Res -- and so could post extracts from the actual text of this paper.

SB

Great stuff SB, thanks!

I have been on stimulant meds for approx 2.5 yrs and in that time have noticed a huge increase in my ability to think through a single problem for a long period of time (reletively speaking in my case I guess - long period would be 1 hr or so) which once on the meds I would do on the way to and from work every day (about 1.25hrs drive) basically as thought exercises, I found that doing this seemed to help to increase my memory recall immensely. (and also helped me stay awake on the drive instead of wanting to go to sleep from boredom :P )

However, in the last few months I've been a little worried by some times where I've completely forgotten things - not like I've forgotten to remember something, like as in I forgot to remember put something in the mail and could remember having to do it later when prompted or remembering myself - I would have absolutely no recollection of segments of conversations (or whole conversations) and sometimes less significant events which had occured also.
Which scared the absolute heck out of me! I'd always been very forgetful, but that was mainly forgetting to remember something, when prompted I could usually remember at least that there was something I had to remember, or remember that I had tuned out at that time and could explain it - this was like complete gaps in my experience of time. Maybe I'm just getting better at "blinking" without knowing that I am ;)

notwithstanding the memory gaps, I've noticed the meds aren't quite as effective as they used to be, they completely eliminate the "clouded" feeling still but staying on task is getting to be a difficulty again.

I've been wanting to try to come off my medications for a bit so my brain can have a rest perhaps, and the effectiveness of the meds could possibly come back to the way they were before when I resume them, but I feel so very tired when I go a day without them, and usually end up falling asleep during the day.

Big, (and anyone else also) I'd be interested to know your experience with stimulant medications over such a long period as yours and if you experienced tolerances and how you may have dealt with them?

Kind Regards,

-Crash-Dr

"Most of the data that I have seen indicates that free radicals and hyperthermia are the main causes of neuronal damage done by stimulants. Additionally, in animal models restraint stress exacerbates the damage.

The peroxynitrite radical seems to be the worst of the offending molecules and many common anti-oxidants will neutralize it. The most difficult part of amphetamine neuroprotection seems to be the hypothermia, so far the only thing I have seen to counteract that is melatonin. Although, I think if you are getting a hyperthermic reaction, then the dose is too high"

Fukami G, Hashimoto K, Koike K, Okamura N, Shimizu E, Iyo M.
Effect of antioxidant N-acetyl-l-cysteine on behavioral changes and neurotoxicity in rats after administration of methamphetamine.
Brain Res. 2004 Jul 30;1016(1):90-5.
PMID: 15234256

Hi - I just posted about a new medicine called cerebrolysin under 'new medicine' and Andrew posted a review of this medication and this medicine is also an antioxidant , so now I'm wondering that this might be partly how it might help memory.
Bruce

SBUK: I've had some experience experimenting with the brainwave synchronisation devices you're talking about (ie. mind machines and such), I find that the use of these do absolutely nothing for my ability to concentrate, rather in all states below beta concentration levels are deteriorated (as one would expect) - albeit my anxiety and stress levels are also lowered, so it's definitely not something I can use whilst working or otherwise trying to concentrate on something.

Interestingly, I find that when trying to increase my concentration levels by attempting to induce a beta brainwave state I become intensely nauseous, this has been shown to occur whilst medicated and also unmedicated, so I would presume unrelated to overstimulation whilst medicated and the discomfort that can come with that.

Regards,

-Crash-Dr

"Most of the data that I have seen indicates that free radicals and hyperthermia are the main causes of neuronal damage done by stimulants. Additionally, in animal models restraint stress exacerbates the damage.

The peroxynitrite radical seems to be the worst of the offending molecules and many common anti-oxidants will neutralize it. The most difficult part of amphetamine neuroprotection seems to be the hypothermia, so far the only thing I have seen to counteract that is melatonin. Although, I think if you are getting a hyperthermic reaction, then the dose is too high"

Fukami G, Hashimoto K, Koike K, Okamura N, Shimizu E, Iyo M.
Effect of antioxidant N-acetyl-l-cysteine on behavioral changes and neurotoxicity in rats after administration of methamphetamine.
Brain Res. 2004 Jul 30;1016(1):90-5.
PMID: 15234256



So brain hyperthermia will make the brain burn out just like any other type of machine? Just like shutting a machine down to lube it up and such would be the same anology with the melatonin and the brain?? Cool stuff!

I *remember* (lol) taking a melatonin supplement for a period of like two weeks once. I had insomnia but it wasn't from the stimulant meds. This was during my heavy exercise phase. I think my bodyfat got down to like 7%, (I think my lowfat diet and low bodyfat had to do with my insomnia). Anyway, after the two week period of melatonin, I was d*r*a*g*g*i*n*g throughout the day. I couldn't hardly function. The melatonin had built up in my system and was the most terrible thing I had ever experienced. Now I take Valerian root when I can't sleep.