Hello all,

I hope posting here isn't inappropriate, as I'm a friend, not a significant-other, of an ADDer. I am a non-ADD woman

I have read through many of this forum's posts but haven't seen the particular problem I've had with my ADD friend, "Jessie", a woman who is living with her boyfriend. My dilemma, one I see others have, is trying to determine if the problem is likely a symptom of ADD...or not.

It seems to me a history of my relationship with Jessie should be given here. Hopefully, it will be relatively brief:

We became friends about 3 years ago when I began teaching her how to use the computer. It was a labor of love for me but often was also difficult (frustrating) because of Jessie's strong sense of how computers "should" work, rather than how they do work, which, triggering her tirades about stupid modern inventions, kept her from the chore at hand.

For probably over two years, as a friendship grew, Jessie confided in me about her problems with her boyfriend, among other things. She was in a constant state of extreme stress, not only because of frequent fights with her boyfriend, but also because of her financial difficulties, as well as her because of her struggle, as an ADDer, just trying to cope with life.

So, for a very long time, besides helping Jessie with her computer work, my role was exclusively that of a listening, supportive friend. In light of her distress, I had no expectations from her (for myself) and was content to let her do all the talking, which consisted of long, very detailed and very emotional descriptions of the numerous situations she found distressing or overwhelming.

More recently...about 6 months ago...Jessie was on her own, computer-wise, except for a occasional question by phone. At about that time, she also announced she had decided to stop verbalizing her problems because, she said, she was convinced it would only serve as a self-fulfilling prophecy. It seemed to me she had taken a giant step forward.

With the original basis of our relationship (the computer lessons, her long sessions of emotional venting) changed, I viewed our still-frequent phone contacts and our occasional face-to-face get-togethers as an opportunity for me to talk about some of the things in my life for Jessie's feedback and a little support. But, it hasn’t happened!

What I found was that even though she wasn't in distress, Jessie usually talked non-stop. Worse, any time I started to tell her something, she would cut me off in the middle of my introductory sentence and would start talking about something entirely different, usually quite trivial in nature, as if I hadn't said anything. And, almost as frustrating, if I did manage to get my story out, her only response was what seemed like a dutiful "Uh-huh" or "Oh really", which was followed with an abrupt change of subject...so that what I had just talked about died on the spot.

Sometimes, while on the phone with her, which was the usual form of our contacts, I'd hear the clickity-click of her computer keyboard keys. She admitted she was typing some notes to herself. I gently objected, telling her I needed her to listen to me. She told me she was listening and insisted that she could do two things at once. I tried to tell her it was impossible for anyone, but she maintained she could and when I persisited, cut the disussion short, telling me she "doesn’t want to argure about it!". Another time, at her house, as I again tried to talk to her, she picked up a magazine and began looking through the pages. Again I objected and she insisted she had heard everything I had said. This time, I asked her how she would feel if I scanned through a magazine while she was telling me about a disturbing fight she had had with her boyfriend. She thought for a moment, grinned sheepishly and said, "Point well taken"

But nothing changed. As the frustrating and sometime painful incidents continued, I refrained more and more from initiating any kind of meaningful conversation with Jessie. Mostly I said nothing. She, however, didn't seem to notice and was content to do all the talking. I grew resentful and, at times, was angry but said nothing, since previously she dismissed my complaints. Eventually, I concluded that as long as Jessie was the one talking about what was meaningful to her, she could maintain focus, was comfortable with details and had "enough time" to talk for as long as she needed to. But if I were the one talking about something important to me, she couldn't maintain focus, was impatient with my use of details and was concerned about a lack of time. And the kind of supportive, involved responses I had always given her just weren't there for me. I stopped calling her.

Finally, the other day, Jessie called me to ask if she could come by for a visit. When she arrived, however, I forgot my promise to myself not to try to tell her about anything of any significance to me.

I had made a series of plans (on a CAD computer program) for converting a bedroom into a combination guest room and a desperately needed walk-in storage room for my small house. I was excited and pleased with what I had done and brought out one of the drawings to show Jessie. She looked it over with little comment. I then reached for a second drawing that showed a different space arrangement from the first but as I put it in front of her, she moved it aside and told me coldly, "I don't need to see any more dimension lines!" I was stunned. She began telling me about something of interest to her.

A few minutes later, Jessie asked me if I were upset about her not wanting to look at the drawing. (Upset? I was furious.) I told her I was. When she gave me some feeble "reason" for her behavior, I lit into her, accusing her of doing what I described above. ("...only when YOU'RE the one doing the talking about what's meaningful to YOU,...", etc.etc.) I wasn't shouting, didn't call her names and wasn't sarcastic. However, I definitely was very intense and wouldn't accept some of her defensive replies. (For example, "No one else has ever accused me of those things!"). Shortly, near tears, she announced she didn't want to talk anymore and was going home. I told her I hoped she call me in a few days so that we could sort things out. She said she would.

What I want to know is this: Is what I'll describe Jessie as being totally "self-absorbed" and "one-way" when it comes to relating to me a part of ADD? Does having an ADD friend mean I shouldn't ever expect to have "my turn" when it come to being attended to and responded to when I talk?

I am having conflicting feelings. One of them is guilt. For a long time, I had tried "understanding" and hadn't wanted to cause Jessie more stress...so I said almost nothing to her about what bothered me and hid my increasing resentment. Then, with the drawing incident, I dumped it all on her.

My other feeling is that, in the final analysis, it doesn't matter WHY Jessie behaves as she does. The fact remains her inattentiveness, cut-offs and lack of involved responsiveness whenever I talk to her is to such an extreme degree that it's actually painful. "Putting up with it is crazy", I tell myself. "I don't need that sort of thing", "I deserve more from a ‘friend’" and "I should break off all contact with her." are some of the things I tell myself.

I think what angers me most is the apparent selectivity of the particular "symptoms" I’ve described. That is, if I saw that Jessie became distracted and changed the subject in the middle of talking about something important to her or that she avoided "a lot of details" in her own speech pattern or that she cut herself short while talking because she was concerned about not having enough time, I wouldn’t be as bothered when she does it to me.

The fact that the ‘symptoms’ don’t manifest as long as she’s speaking, regardless of how long it may be, suggests to me that somewhere in her brain she is making a judgement about "what’s important" (and what isn’t.) And, I conclude, she judges as "not important" whatever she isn’t focused on at the moment, hence, her cut-offs, change of subject, lack of involvement, boredom, impatience and concern over a lack of time when I start to talk. Indeed, that’s exactly how I feel, namely, that when it comes to Jessie, anything I might want to say to her just isn’t important and has no value.

My logic (is it faulty?) tells me there’s something amiss when a friend with a serious disability is confined to a wheelchair during the week…but miraculously manages to run in marathons on weekends.

What don’t I understand here?

Have you non-ADDers out there run into a similar problem? And will you ADDers tell me your reactions? I don’t know if Jessie will want to call me after my outburst of the other day but regardless of whether she does or doesn’t, I have to make a decision about what to do.

With that, I will end this.

Wow, I can really feel your frustration with this situation. I'm a non add woman, and I have add relative and friend with add child as well as a special male friend I am very fond of who is add with hyperactivity.

Well, the first thing I've learned so far is not to take the inattention personally. In the case of my male friend, his mind is going at a hundred miles an hour all the time--I think he might have already have had 2 lifetimes worth of thinking, so given that, it's sometimes hard for him to stay focussed on a single thought that happend 50 thoughts ago, if you get the drift.

So in my readings and talking with him, I learned that not only CAN he do more than one thing at a time, but it can really help him to concentrate on his discussions with me if he is doing something else as well. So if we talk on the phone, I am very ok that he does something else at the same time, like clean house or whatever, and while I'm talking about MY share of stuff, he can keep on the thread in between directing his other brain cycles to simultask 2.

It's really quite amazing when you think about it. Anyway, I wouldn't take that multitasking thing personally either. Maybe you can find a secondary task that doesn't make you feel totally left out, though.

Another thing I've learned is that sometimes, folks with ADD are not always able to pick up social cues and stuff, and so if there is something important you need to get across, sometimes the little body language things or facial expressions will just not make it into their "notice this" antenna. So don't feel badly about having to be obvious and just say what is on your mind. After a while, you'll get used to it and you'll save a lot of angst in the process.

Of course all kinds of people can be varying levels of niceness and so on, but of the ADD folks I've met/known in my own life and e-wise, I just havent' found anyone that wasnt a pretty straight up person just trying to be good soul and try to manage their brain. You'll have to decide that of your friend too, taking into the equation what you know about ADD and how it affects behaviour.

With the nature of inattention, you mentioned that your friend will suddenly change the subject, but the thing is, that the thought she had was probably pretty intrusive in her head, and completely got her off track, totally unintentionally. So maybe what you could try is reminding her nicely about your topic and give her a moment to come back to it. You might make some physical contact to catch her attention if she seems way off.

You can't fight the brain thing though, cuz its just the way it is, so you have to work with your friend to allow her to keep on track with you and make you feel more comfortable with how she's behaving. If she seems a little chatty, don't forget she probably has a hundred thoughts to your one, so there' sa lot to talk about!! I actually am a tangential thinker, so I love my conversations with my friend as we let things flow, but I do keep an informal agenda to remind me to cover issues/topics before we sign off. Sometimes we take a couple of stabs at it before the topic is totally covered, but hey, we'er both trying so its gold.<GRIN>

I get the impression she values your friendship though...so if I were you and wanted to continue the relationship, I'd do some more reading up and maybe talk to her about her ADD a bit and find out more about how it affects her and the best ways to share conversation. There are so many different complexities to ADD, everyone is different in how it can affect them.

As always, I stand to be corrected/educated by any folks with ADD reading this, so please comment if I"m off.

Hope this helps with your friendship, pattyrieb!

patty,
gotta ask if this friend is on meds or being treated?

Truthfully from your account she sounds like she's happy to stay the way she is.
Even the most animated ADD folks I know give a pause during speach now and again. AND they/we are just as intensely animated in what others have to say...not that we don't go off subject and butt in often.

And even though I can totally relate to your descriptions of her cutting you off mid-speech; typing while talking, etc, (I do all these with very little embarassment, myself) it doesn't sound like you are getting any time to communicate.

Just my 02

I think you need to share this forum with her:)

That is exactly the key to what makes an ADDer tick. Whatever is interesting allows us to zone in & be completely normal. Actually above-normal if I may say so. But if it isn't captivating, it's torture to think of attending to that.

So all you describe of her makes sense to me but really, she ought to be giving you a little room to contribute somehow, certainly something is wrong here besides just the ADHD.

But setting aside obligations & the guilt which she OUGHT to be feeling.... The approach I would take is to ask her opinion about what's happening in your life and I mean sincerely thinking about what she would really be fascinated by that you are doing. If you two can't come up with something, there is no friendship and you may safely abandon her.

I hope that all makes sense & I wasn't too frank or unclear.

I have two brother's neither of which have ADHD. Neither of them have particularly good listening skills but expect me to be available whenever it's convenient for them to call and talk while I listen and make supportive sounds in return. Rarely if ever do I get asked about anything I might have going on.

I don't know that poor courtesy, social skills in general and listening skills are the sole short comming of ADHD folks. I don't think so. I also don't think it's any excuse for adults not learning some basic social skills.

Self centredness is not the way to peace with ourselves and others. I got my youngest brother's attention today when he phoned to complain about a relatively simple medical procedure. At one point he stopped for breath and I interjected that at least he hadn't had surgery like my wife had this week. He took his breath and carried right on.

My expectations remain low. This keeps me from being disappointed. I'm frank with people like that and on a couple of occasions have challenged this brother about his lack of listening skills. He reforms for a week or so then carries right on as if nothing had been said. I tried to talk with him about empathy but I'm not sure he knows what it means. Compassion is another term that although he might be able to give a definition of it, I'm pretty sure he couldn't give an example.

I test very clearly as ADHD and I am often told I am a good conversationalist. Maybe it makes a difference what the characteristics of the particular type of ADHD are, for instance, inattentive and such. I just know I have a low tolerance for a self centred lack of basic manners and it's decreasing all the time thankfully. Life is short. Play hard.
ian

Thank you, all, for your thoughtful comments. In their individual ways, each was helpful to me.

No, my friend is not on any medication or having treatment for her ADD. In her defense, she earns very little money, has no health insurance and just can’t afford going to doctors unless it were an absolute emergency.

She had sought treatment in the past, though. She told me she was on meds for 6 months but they hadn’t helped her at all. That was several years ago.

As for being content with the way she is, I don’t think she is. Some of her dire distress I mentioned in my original thread was over how her ADD made accomplishing everyday tasks a constant struggle…a nightmare. Sometimes she’s cried, saying she doesn’t “want to live this way anymore!”.(She would quickly tell me not to worry…that she’d never actually “do” anything.) On the other hand, she’s made impulsive unwise decisions that almost guarantee she’ll be poor in the foreseeable future (ADD in action), which also guarantees that she can’t afford treatment for her ADD…a vicious circle.

I had to back away from trying to advise Jessie on her decisions. (Being older than she, it was all too easy to “mother” her, although she’s a grown woman of 42.) I could tell I was being drawn into something unhealthy on that score, not unlike the co-dependent in a relationship with an alcoholic. Now that I think about it, judging from many of the posts from the spouses of ADDers (I haven’t yet read posts from the ADDer forums), the dynamics of the relationships between (untreated) ADDers and their non-ADDer spouses are very much like those in an alcoholic marriage/relationship!

At the moment, I’m leaning toward the idea that while my friend’s ADD is probably contributing to the problems I described in my original thread, there are other things going on with her that have nothing to do with it. Unless I have some deep-seated problem of my own that I’m not aware of, I just shouldn’t be consistently feeling so completely blocked, shut-out and cut-off whenever I express things that are important to me…and, in a way, that represent who I am. Interestingly, there’s no problem when we casually chit-chat about utterly mundane things! Hmmm.

Again, thanks all.

I agree whole heartedly with your assessment of the similarities in relationship balances.

I'm comforted to hear you say the things you have. I know you won't be making some of the mistakes that are so common. It is not common knowledge or well appreciated just how destructive these types of relationships can be to both parties.

Thank-you for taking the time to post. It's helped keep my own head clear on the topic and remind me once again that I'm not alone with my thoughts.
ian

In some ways Patty you desribe me. Yet I have worked hard and have made some progress. I more often catch myself changing the subject, as something they said sparks an intrest in another subject or my own experience in the subject at hand. Yet I am very interested in what others have to say, feel etc.. Yet I am likely often viewed as "self absorbed".

It sounds to me as though maybe Jesse is having a hard time admitting to this particular problem, at least to another. Because it is so uncontrollable for her to stay on track when others are talking, that it is very hard to understand to herself. At least I couldn't figure it out.
One friend said I was kind of self absorbed seeming although he noticed that when he needed my help I was the best friend ever. That was because It is easier for me to stay focused when I am involved in more ways than just listening. No matter how hard I try to focus and want to hear another person, sometimes I can't stay on track. Also I am very quick and will often know what they are expressing/feeling before hand. Then it is boring to hear in their slow speech what I already picked up on. This helps sometimes and hinders othertimes, as I also miss out on details in their conversation. Which I know is rude and invalidating feeling to them.

Jesse may be as I was/am, feeling guilty, embarrased, misunderstood, in relationship to her conversational dynamics. So much that she has trouble looking it in the eye.

Once a short term boyfriend called and left a message saying he needed to talk with me about our conversational dynamics. I was so scared of that future talk, I felt so defensive, very scared to find out how misunderstood I was. Turned out that he had a hard time following my subject jumping, but realised that It always related in someway to the initial subject and that I usually came back around to it. It is embarrasing to me.
I work very hard to stay focused, which means I have to think more to keep track of their conversation on top of the 300 different off shoots going on in my head at the same time.

I think the adderral helps quiet my brain when others talk, but when I talk my brain remains noisy if not noisier.

I suggest you print out some of the replies or information concerning ADD and conversational dynamics so she can start addressing her problem. Whether she will show it or not, she will know you are being a great friend in addressing this rather than dropping it. I also suggest you validate her as a caring and not self centered friend, as she will possibly be hurt and defensive and less reachable towards her problem if she feels misunderstood. Good luck.

I really have appreciated the posts to my thread. Thank you!

I may have given the impression that I only see Jessie in terms of the particular problem I face with her but that's only because I was addressing it. In fact, among other things, Jessie is a very kind, helpful, thoughtful and generous person and is very bright, qualities I’ve let her know I really appreciate and admire.

By the way, she has read many books and articles about ADD.

I think I need to explain that in my mind, I divide Jessie’s relating “ways” into two categories. The first can be distracting, if not somewhat disruptive and mildly annoying…or even more than “mildly” annoying…but they don’t upset me! They don’t sting or leave me feeling so isolated and shut out. I’m referring to things we all do at times but that she tends to do excessively, such as interrupting by filling in a word or point before I’ve expressed it; cutting in and talking about a different, but RELATED, topic; being very long-winded (far more so than I am!) and being repetitive. With these things, at least I feel she’s “with “me and I can deal with them.

The second category, the one that is so offending to me, includes cutting me off to talk about something entirely UNRELATED to what I was saying and, more often than not, is trivial or not particularly important even to Jessie. For example, I might want to tell her how disappointed I was that my daughter had to cancel her planned visit with me. If I were to tell her this with a single, “summary”-type sentence (“My daughter had to cancel her visit and I’m really disappointed.”), I’d probably be allowed to get it out and Jessie probably would respond with an empathetic statement…and then change the subject. But if I felt the need to elaborate on how much I had been looking forward to the visit or why it was cancelled, Jessie might cut me off and suddenly start talking to her cat. (“Oh, Missy, hi there! What a sweet kitty your are! Do you want to come up here on my lap?) And after that, she would NOT say something like, “I’m sorry, what were you were saying?” or anything else acknowledging that I had been telling her something meaningful to me. The topic is dead…unless I try again. But by then…and because of my experience with her…I dread trying again because it’s very likely I’ll be cut off again the same way. Also, by then, I’m stinging and resentful, feeling that I shouldn’t have to…that I don’t want to have to… “claw” at her or beg her to be heard.

On the other hand, often, if I do relate something of a less “important” (less emotional?) nature and I express it in a concise way, Jessie will simply say, “Uh-huh” and, again, the subject…my subject… just dies.

At those times, I feel as if I’ve been reduced to an object whose sole purpose is to serve as a silent sounding board for her thoughts, feelings or opinions. It’s a very lonely place to be in..

As I’m typing this, it almost seems a contradiction that I could be so critical of Jessie yet describe her as “a very kind, helpful, thoughtful and generous person”. Be that as it may, it isn’t a contradiction. I’m just describing two different aspects of her.

I’m questioning (actually, I’m ashamed of) the degree of emotional pain I feel when Jessie does the Category 2 things. I’m asking: Would most people react as intensely…or is it just me? Truly, they are devastating for me, particularly when they are repeated…as if one incident confirms the one before it.

Is this the “dance” in relationships I’ve read about? Is her problem meshing perfectly with a problem of mine and visa versa? A part of me says: Yes, what Jessie does is unacceptable and would be unpleasant or disliked or very frustrating for most people…but for me, it’s much more. For me it’s utterly demoralizing and devastating….almost a physical pain in my gut and I feel like a very small, hopeless, lonely child.

I am understanding from your posts that an ADDer is virtually at the mercy of his/her own brain…that he or she simply can’t help it when other thoughts intrude and take over.
The only way I can identify with such a thing is, ironically, by recognizing that my sense of devastation and my pain (when Jessie does the Category 2 things) is a similar mechanism.. The feelings are just there taking over and I can’t prevent them from happening or “will” them away.

Perhaps, given our respective problems, Jessie and I should let the friendship slide out of existence, if it hasn’t already. There are other people out there who, just by the chance of their natures, won’t bring out the “worst” in mine.

Better yet, secretly, I’d like getting a bunch of posts from people who would assure me that under the same circumstances, they would feel just as badly as I and that I have nothing to be ashamed of.

To change the subject, sort of: I know about and can see how certain “devices” can help an ADDer take care of chores he would otherwise forget or get distracted from. (Post-it notes, desktop calendars, etc.) But what can be done about intrusive thoughts that cause an abrupt change of subject while conversing? I mean, there’s nothing to be reminded of, right? Some of you have told me you’ve improved in that department. How did that happen?

I’ve rambled on long enough…

I said in my last post: "Better yet, secretly, I’d like getting a bunch of posts from people who would assure me that under the same circumstances, they would feel just as badly as I and that I have nothing to be ashamed of."

Please know I wasn't "hinting". I was being honest but at the same time was poking fun at myself over wanting validation from "outside" when I know it has to come from within.

It would feel like abuse for me to never see a variation in being cut off and or trivialised. It would not constitute "friendship" for me. I need a dialogue that is ongoing and includes issues that are significant to me.

Willingness is what I've done most to affect my impulsive ways. I recognise it's a problem for myself and others. I have taught myself to walk more slowly. I've learnt to stop talking. Once the awareness began to kick in the progress on this type of thing was self perpetuating. I got stronger and more confident as I was better accepted socially.

I used to drink heavily and that's where my freak flag would really get carried away. Booze was like speed to me. I rev'd up beyond measure. I can clearly see myself back then doing what you describe of Jesse. I practise slowing down a lot. Regular hard physical exercise takes some of that "edge" away for me. I'm more relaxed and able to focus better. Cutting the big carbs out of my diet helped to keep me slow too. I dropped potatoes, rice, pasta, bread and sugar. None of it is written in stone and when I'm exercising regularly those foods are tolerable sometimes. Having another pork chop isn't a problem though. :)

Meditation helps me.

Given that I am the only thing I can change in a relationship, I'd be looking to influence my behaviour in ways that better suited me and how I feel. Much much easier said than done I'm sure.

Some things remain beyond my grasp and I still fall into old patterns socially quite easily but it's better and some people around me let me know that it's better.

Beddies for me.
ian

I'm very familiar with this, itschaotic, you speak so rightly. My freind is same, and h'es definitely tries hard to manage his brain and hyperness. And he is willing to work on social stuff too, or I could'nt be his friend halfway across the planet.

Its all about willingness, to start with, it seems to me. True for non adders too, come to think.

I definetly have been on the other side of the coin. And have felt invalidated, uninteresting (to the listener). I think your feelings are natural in regards to the situation. Being that I have been on the other side I work hard on my communication problem.

I just thought in my previous response that it would help you to know that even the subjects you get cut off in, she is likely interested. Good luck!!

Hello…

It’s been a week now and I still haven’t heard from Jessie. She had told me, however, that she had just started a new job so I don’t know if her silence reflects stress over that or an intention to remain out of touch indefinitely.

I did want to let you folks know that I have simmered down about the whole issue, thanks in large part to the comments and information you shared with me. Also, I’ve had time to soul-search and sort things out.

I’ve had to admit that in my relationship with Jessie, I followed an old pattern of mine, namely, minimizing or invalidating my own feelings and needs and, as a result, feeling had "no right" to say anything (certainly not in a direct or an assertive way), particularly in light of the misery Jessie’s ADD causes her. So, the hurtful things went on un-addressed much, much longer than they needed to. And, my holding back didn’t do Jessie a favor, either. I know that she was not aware of what she was doing or how her behavior was affecting me. As she told me defensively when I finally did let loose on her: "No one ELSE has ever complained about those things!" Indeed, perhaps if someone had, I wouldn’t have had a reason to!

Anyway, unless I hear from Jessie, I won’t be posting here anymore. If I do hear from her, I will let you know how it goes.

Goodbye all…and again, thank you.