Hi, i would just like to say this board is very very good. It has numerous information and many topics.

Iv been researching different types of alternative methods to help boost dopamine from excess use of medication (Adderall) and or if you plan on quitting, which is hard to do with natural stuff.

SOme dopamine Enancers or precursors I found were:

L-Tyrosine + B6
Munuca Prurriens ( Pinnacles Dopa Poppers) Tooted to be 15% L-Dopa and may work as well in creating dopamine.

NaDH, which produces ATP, and is a powerfull antioxidant which regenerates coq10 and ala. NaDH STimulates the production of the neurotransmitters , Norepinephrine, Dopamine and Serotonin, improving clear thinking, concentration and speed of reaction. Also improves memory and CFS .

PEA (Phenylethylamine) is an endogenous neuroamine, naturally produced, according to scientists, PEA improves mood faster than amphetamines and is sometimes called the "person in love" chemical which is released when someone is in love. (NOT Extacy). ALso improves attention span, and depressed mood. People who crave chocolate which is one of the best resources of PEA.

Phosphitydlserine: WHich stimulates the production of Acetylchole and Dopamine. Also hels restore the plasticity of the synapes. and improves cerebral glucose and helps prevent deterioration of such. Moresoe, i believe it works for memory, but some users claim they feel less depressed which may be due to dopamine

L-Phenylalaine: Precursor to Norepinephrine/Dopamine, which is an amino acid like L-Tyrosine. Both of these can be used with other substances to help convert them into the neurotransmitters.

Vinpocetine: Improves the use of oxygen in the brain, increses the cerebral blood flow and reduces platelet aggression. Considered to be neuroprotective, and also increases the synthesis of several neuro-transmitters which affect cerebral functions such as memory , concentration and mood. Primarily Acetylcholine and Serotonin.

CDP-CHoline: Crosses the BBB to reach the nervous system, where its is directly improves cerebral metabolism, also increases dopamine, helping parkinsons patients.

L-Theanine: A chemical from green tea, which increases GABA, and relaxation, but also increases dopamine.

THese are just a few natural remodies I found. I will list more as i research more, but i know there are many Nootropics that are smart drugs.

MindResearch

Thank you for that information!

MindResearcher,
I'm still trying to get a grasp of how the brain works basics.
Any links appreciated.
My immediate question is in treating bi-polar is it a dopamine or serotonin thang?
Or is it a hit and miss with meds until you see what works?

Nice summary!

: - )

L-Theanine is one I've heard that really works, I forget where I got the following recommendation (maybe mumbo-jumbo but I think a few people mentioned this brand is a better formulation):
"Suntheanine (patent-pending), which is the purest, most readily absorbable and efficacious of the many theanine products on the market" I think it is pretty darn expensive.

I thought this was a good article I mentioned in another thread yesterday for charlie especially: The Chemistry of TS http://au.geocities.com/jones_kacm/chem.htm
Is there anything that works on DHEA/cortisol?

Well, im not trying to project myself as a know it all, but i have this fasination of researching meds, supplements etc and how they effect the brain. Im sure alot of the information i post may be wrong, but its what i get from other sources, which are pretty good. But Trial and error would be sure fire.

I take about 10 different supplements. Naming them quickly :
L-THeanine 200mg
Rhodiola Rhosia
L-Tyrosine 500mg
DL-Phenylalanine 500mg
B-complex 50, 2x daily
An Unltra Mega Vitamin
Milk Thistle 2x daily
Omega 3 Fish oil 2 gels
Herbal cleans formula/FIber cleans 2 daily
Vitamin c 500mg with L-Tyroine
Dopa Poppers (containing Mucuna Prurriens) from Pinnacle

Yes it may seem alot, but like i said i try to experiment with different supplements. I also take Testosterone Spray which is the 1-Ad 4-ad precrusor. But im off it. I cycle it on and off, then take some Tribulis Tessterris from Biotec. THis kicks in your natural testosterone.

Ya, im in the prosses of opening up a supplement store, but now im thinking on focusing on mind Supplements nootropics etc. Im not sure , just a variety of supplements, plus do client interviews. I hold a personal Traiing degree.

But dam, i wish there was some job out there dealing with what im always talking about. From what im thinking a drug and alcoho counceler. I dont have the money or time to go to school for 7 yrs.

But in all honesty and im not telling a fib, iv been onine for 14 hrs today. I mean i took breaks but im telling you this adderall is making me too darn focused on one thing. I dont even answer my phone! But Im also very tired, because i usually dont sleep much on friday or sat night. So, thats another reason why i have to take another (3rd) dose of my adderal. If i took my second dose today at 5pm and its 300 am, id be dead tired sleeping on my key board. So i take another dose about 10pm, so im able to stay up to at most 4pm. sometimes 5 ,6 on weekends.

geno

Just my observation....

I've tried just about everything there is to offer on natural stuff (cause I work in a vitamin store) with little to no results.

I believe in many natural supplements but so far no luck helping my ADD.

geno and britawn,

I know nothing works as well as pharmaceuticals, but I have 2 children who are SO ANTI drug it's nuts. Not to mention I don't want to be dependent on RX forever myself.

I would LOVE to try the natural approach.

First I have to learn what chemical needs to be enhanced then find an alternative.

I know with menopause symptoms the ONLY, and I tried at least 10 others, only primose oil made any dent in my emotions. I took them by the handful when I was spazing out and they helped.

geno,
I have a co-worker who's been taking a course online for awhile now I'll ask him about it and see if you might be interested also.
His wife's a nurse, he teaches martial arts and judging from the paper I see in our printer often, it's based on alternative medicine.
Guy is known for his great attitude, one of his quotes is 'do you know why Drs say they PRACTICE medicine? Because they practice on you!"

cheers

Charlie and Paul, i believe one of ou askNed about bipolar meds; I hardly read up on this disease for some reason. IV heard, depakoe,an Tiali work, but hef that.

I dont think its appropriate to post other isghts onhere, unless there is another forum on here that you can. But in my opinion im going to name the main n.t's and like 3-5 natural supplement recursors that IMO would have the most affinity for.

Serotonin:1. L-Tryptophan or 5htp, 2. Rhodiola Rhosia, ( i beleive it increaes the turnoever rate), 3. Same (at least 800 mg and let me say its too much money but i really gives you some mental clarity, Mood boost, and enerty. 4. St.John Wart, which has both serotnon Da and Na reuptake. Alsoa handoout i have said i migh be a slight Mao, and has gabaeneric pproberties. THis is inproved because you would not beable to eat much daily o r cheese. Last , for serotonin, I would have to say B Vitamins just lie the ot her N.T

Dopamine:L-Tyrosine 500mg with a B-complex and C, Munuca Prurriens (15% l-Dopa) although I read reserach from VRPs web sight that this herb actually works better than synthetic Lpdopa. I know that L-Dopa has to be used with siniment but if so, im sure this herb may not be efect, but beng that it doenst have a transporter. BUT what they say it to take TRIBUILLIS Terrestis 500mg. Lets, see, NAHA, CHP-Choline, Phosphytydlserine, although these are used for memory, concentration, and some, alziembers experiements/Parkinsons, but usually they stick wthe drugs.

GABA; First we Have Kava. I never tried it, but now that its banned, everyone wants it. But recent reports state it may be toxic to the liver. Another Gabaenergic supplement wis picamonin, which has alot of informational studies. May also increase doamine
ANother product by Ergo Pharm im going to purchase is called Gabatropic, or the chemical name is Phenibut. Phenibut. TO be brief, and lll post about this in a fresh forum is it corosses the BBB, it has been used in Russia since 1960 sIt has both Nootropic and anxiolytic. Structuryly, it is similar to GABA, Baclofen, and beta-phenylethylamine (PEA) , NOT L-Phenylalanine, thus (PEA) also has dopaminergic properties.
(There is a medication Called Aminaptine, which was used in france , potent dopamine reuptake and releaeser. But they pulled it , and now its on the black market and very expensive. Tianeptine, is a selective serotonin reuptake accellerator which can be pruchased on NNOtropic sites. THen there is Reboxitine, that is also sold on a few Nootropic sites which is selective of NE. now why just not take dsipramine. As for stratera mearing they all are selective NOrepinephrine releasers or blockade, so id like to see the actually breakdow of each. I actually have all of these above listen, and numerioius information on them. Private pst me and itry to be your doctor! LOL NO JUST KIDDNG< just relaying ifor that i read.

OH Ok we have achetylcoline: THis N.T. Mainy is responsible to Memorty, learning, mood, and has nicontinic receptors. again without getting into detail, here are some top ACH boosters. Acytyl carnitine, Phosphitydlcoline (lethicin), actually a product called Higher Minds By source Nurals, suc a great supplemnt, due to the ingreadience. If anone wasnts this info again, shootme a rpivate ror email. Huprazine A, is sorta like a MAO of dopamine, which it bocks a chemical that breaks down achytlcholine.
As Im looking at these one nutrient, I see a prodcts callled Memory. It contains a variety of herbals and botanicals. WOO. First, Bacopa Monnneira a well known ayurvedic studies for 30 yrs . Bacopa, does a few things, it increaes memory acqusition and speed of reaction . ALso lmproves learning and increases protien synthesis in the brain cells. The other nutriens are Ahwaganda which is an antistress agent which promotes learing and memorty. It also reverses brain damage cause my neurotoxins. THe 3rd herb is called Centella asiaticatta which is one of the best Psychotropic herbs! It is used to improve behavior, to reduce anxiety and mental phatiige and improves congnitive function in retuared persons.
Last we have Tinosporia Condigola, which is shown to be a good anti-stress activite, and then Convolvylis pleuriaulis. Its better know as *****pusphi and is used for psychotopic effect.
Well, IMO, the last One i named Memory, seems that it may help ADD. What i like about natural supplements, is that you can get away with mixing them. But I personally would research them first. But currently i take approx 10 supplements inlcludint seperate amino acids, B-complex 100mg, Ulra Mega, Vitamin 500mg ony when neeed, Dopa Poppers, Rhodia Rhosia, Milk THistle, Also i take cognitive formula consisting of Dmae, Phosphytidleserine, TaurineL-THeanine, Omega Fish DHA EPA, gotu kola and vipocetine.

Now im my personal opinon. Oh iforgot. If you want to increae endogenous Opioids, , DL-Phenyalanine helps , but you wont feeel like your on vicodin, but actually replenishes receptors. Rhodiola Rhosia also helps do similar phamocinetcs.

Last I take a Herbal/Fiber CLeans. Well im ot listing ever herbs but th eone bottle had 30 herbs, only 15mg a peice, but helps cleans the blood, body and digestive system.

But as For ADD, i would say there a few good products, one being from VAXA called attend, another one from Biogenesis.

Lastly, Im now into Nootropics. THere are about 20 nootropics drugs , that basically helps iwthmemmory, but due to the parkinsons disease. Psycobabble has a list, which with permission by the admiistrator i can post this list. THere is a generic list and then the brand name, the dosage, the Tmax and the actual NR. chemical.

For exmple,looking at the chart, the one i have is the Generic Name First, which say is adderall. The next plocel lists AMphetamine . As you go acrosss the top, you see usage, and for adderall says ADD, ADHD, Narcolepsy and depresssion. The next is the dosage 4-60mg, next block is Half life metabloism which is showing 10-25 hrs and the cyp-2d6 enzeme. LASTLY, most important, the PROPERTIES> First property states its a psychostimulant. Next shows NE Release +++ DA ++ / Da reuptake + Na reuptake +. NOw the plus signs dont how strong actually the release or blockade i imagine once plus is minor. Two ++ would be moderate to high, and 3 +++ woudl be very high. # is the max, but then you have to take into acccount osage, tolerance, wieght acct.

Ritalin shows (Methylphenidate-ADD ,ADHD, Depresssion, CFS 20-30MG (60MG MAX) hALF-LIFE 2.9HRS AND PROPERTIES (PSYCHOSTIMULANT Da Reuptake inhibition/Ne Reuptake/Ne Release, but the funny thng there is no strenght s+ sign. Maybe if i look at the other form which actually gives trade name first.


I have one Very improtrantquestion, but may notmake mucj sence or how to word it. If someone was looking for a drug for the most potent effect yet most benificial, would the actions of the drugs by for example Bloxking the Reuptake of doapmine, the next dose say the next day was a different drug , same class but released dopamine , then you had a drug which increased da. ,then administered a drug the following day which was a dopamine agaonist, then again you had a different drug with increased dopamine. (so you have reuptake bloack, Release, a Da agonist, and finally a Da increaser. NOw i suspect the Blocking of the Reuptake is lke an SSRI, causing the neurotransmitters to remain in the synapse or i call it the river between two mountains, and the mountans being the nerve cells, and the streams is whre the NT is released and then you have about 1000 Neurotransmitters swimmiing like (i pretend there litle sone catfish), welll some attempt to swim back up stream, but dopamine being about 100 huge catfish are blocking the steam. Now heer si where say when the drugs wears of , the cattfish or neurotransmitters get eaten ip my the MAOi Fish downstream. Im not so sure when Mao enzyme actually kills theNT.s if its in the synapse or what, but another one would be taking L-tyrosine would be like going up into the mountinain inthe stream witha huge bucket of stone catties. Then, you take the drug, which chases the catfish into the synapse and so.

I

Please if somone takes time t read this , shoot back what is wrong fi they know fo rusre.

For people with RBS with their ADD ADHD marijuana can help slow the mind down so you have more control of your thoughts. But it does not help with some of the other symptoms (forgetfullness ect) and it is illeagle but often people with RBS dont do well with traditional meds. K.B

Hi,
Hi, great board!
I'm a licensed veterinarian and also board certified in acupuncture. Now, if anyone tries to tell you they know exactly how or why it works biologically either has a very high sense of their own ideas' validity, or were lied to by someone else and never took the time to research the reality, which is - no one truly knows. There are plenty of theories, some way out there, some more of a spiritual nature, and most of us have our own pet theories of course, because we all see some amazing things happen with it's use which defy medical texts and seems so mystifying sometimes! Like many other methods or formulations, it's just as much a bummer when I can't provide relief in a patient too. One of my strongest pet theories is the school of thought that leans toward the stimulation of points along the meridians has a stimulant effect on small neurochemical transmitters (how many small, and tissue specific neurotransmitters is it possible we haven't a clue even exist to date?) .

Well, one of the most consistently responsive and rewarding cases are dogs with epilepsy, if I cannot get seizures stopped completely, owners are often thrilled to use far less medications and see shorter and less frequent seizures in these dogs. In addition, most dogs and horses when being treated, even those who had designs on separating a limb from my body when I first meet them, are dozing off midway through an AP treatment, and seem to forget I'm even there...that simply doesn't happen on vaccine days! Also, one benefir to vet AP results vs humans is the lack of a placebo effect, if they're better, they just are....not many animals work at convincing themselves of how they should be feeling. Therefore, when I use a handheld TEMS unit, or basically a small little machine which delivers a small charge electrically at the body points (no stronger than a battery), and we know neurotransmitters can only do their messaging things amongst other nerves as in brain chemistry, or to muscles, and the functions we take for granted, like movement of food in the orrect direction ;0)

I've had such good responses with the electrical unit for my seizure patients, often their dose of phenobarbital and or KBr which they've often been on for years, al of a sudden seems to be making them loopy and barely able to stand within a week or two of treatments. So, my personal guess is that the AP point stimulation must be doing something fairly potent in the chemistry of the brain, again electrically (which is the way brain cells release their transmitters/mesengers at the synapses...Dopamine, Norepinephrine, and serotonin are examples of chemical release between the synapses of brain cells, and they can't be released or received without the flow of electricaly charged cells working like little batteries...this IS fact, and not theory). theory of mine enter here, I'm seeing a dramatic response of a seizure prone brain seemingly finding the balance of chemical messaging when stimulated with little bursts of stimulation with either a battery run "zapper" or tickling them with needles.
So, what dos this have to do with ADD potentially? Many of us have an imbalance of these chemicals in some form or another, which often is helped with administering outside sources of the chemical right? I wonder if acupuncture might electrically help any number of conditions caused by an imbalance by using nature's method of triggering their transmitters to flow and message via the tiny flow of electrical impulses they need to do their balancing act?

I may try it on myself as a guinea pig, but I'd love to know if anyone out there has tried AP with any success in relieving symptoms by turning their electrical "switches" back on/off and obviating the need for exogenous sources of chemicals?

I'd loe to her about anyone's experiences with AP treatment, and if it helped reduce the dosage of meds, or even removed the need to take the meds overall?
Thanks in advance for any anectdotal stories in this regard.

I've tried the L-Tyrosine and L-Phenalynaline, and love both. I thought that maybe I just needed a combo of Amino acids, but I've found that some (not sure which ones since they are in a multi combo of amino acids) cause me problems with being TOO calm-which ends up as very depressed. Soon as I stopped the combo,I was back to normal that day. I need to get some L-Phenalynaline, I haven't had any in awhile. God I wish my inurance covered vitamins/herbs-I take tons of them and they sure get to be expensive! lol

God I wish my inurance covered vitamins/herbs-I take tons of them and they sure get to be expensive! lolTo go "all natural" is actually more expensive than the meds. (Unless you get your ADD meds for $10, which if so, you are lucky.)

Between the GABA for depression, the L-Tryptophan (which you have to order from a distributor since the healthfood stores won't sell it) for sleep and depression, the Ginkgo for mental clairy, L-Tyrosine to increase dopamine, and the OPCs, (that do what? I dunno.) and all the other amino acids, it's twice as much, per month, for me anyway, then the Adderall.

I take Ginkgo, Tyrosine and OPC on my "breaks" though.

There are some assumptions here that should be looked at.

1) Does Adderall produce more Neurotransmitters or does it simply help use more of whats there?
2) Is creating more Neurotransmitters the real solution? For instance, if there is a leak in your pipe, does turning on both taps the solution to getting more water?
3) Can you enhance Dopamine production and if you can, will you increase it where you want to increase it?
4) Does giving the body supplements work? Recent studies question if the body will use these ingedients in the way we want them to be used. The body may have it's own procedure for making things and we may simply not be able to improve this by putting supplements in the digestive track.

Has anyone ever tried Acetyl L-Carnitine? I recently found it and did some research on it. it too is an amino acid that promotes blood flow to the brain and regulates sugars. A few studies I found suggest that it also affects anxiety and agression found in ADHD boys.

I'm going to try it and am thinking of using it with my son who has agressive behaviors. Anyone else have any feedback?

So, did you try it yet, Jaycee? How did it work?

L-dopa doesn't work in the Mesocortical pathway, which is the main pathway for dopamine.

There's no research substantiated by outside observers that has been found to be valid and reliable concerning nutritional supplements and the clinical treatment of ADHD.