View Full Version : Cat troubles...


bassic
10-08-11, 11:30 AM
Hi everyone,

Newbie from Seattle, WA here!

Me and my wife are having a hard time with a number of things, and it's getting
worse. Rather than rambling about our life in general, I figured it could be
good to focus on a concrete, seemingly trivial issue regarding cats...

---- Basic facts (my version)
Me - male age 40, recently diagnosed with Asperger's + ADHD. Creative professional.
Her - female age 38, NT, recently graduated PsyD, stay at home mom
Kid1 - male age 3 (soon), undiagnosed but strong possibility for ADHD, possibly
AS as well.
Kid2 - female age 11, gifted, lives with my ex wife most of time, undiagnosed
but possibly AS and ADD inattentive

---- Basic facts (her version)
Me - male age 40, recently misdiagnosed with AS (instead, im just gifted +
selfish, possibly some sensory processing disorder), however correctly diagnosed
with ADHD. Creative professional.
Her - female age 38, NT, recently graduated PsyD, stay at home mom
Kid - male age 3 (soon), shows no signs of autism, possibly gifted, active and
sensitive.
Kid2 - female age 11, gifted, lives with my ex wife most of the time,
undiagnosed, but definitely AS.


The cat issue:
We've lived together as a couple for 4+ years. For the first 3 years, she had 2
cats that became ours. I really have a strong problem with sound sensitivity and
pet smells (urine, feces, their food...) to the point where it's something I
think about actively at all times. Chronic low level nausea would be present at
all times, and the cats would keep me up at night with their sounds (later both
the cats and the newborn baby combo made sleep almost impossible. As for odor, I
smell pets instantly in any house that has pets, even if they mostly stay
outdoors, and is instantly repulsed. Needless to say, I compromised pretty hard
for those 3 years (even though the cats were cared for properly, and were not
stinkier than typical in cat-owner-world.)

About 1.5 years ago we moved to a condo that didn't allow pets, so the cats were
reluctantly given to my mother in law at that point. I was very relieved, but
also understood my wife's misery with abandoning them. She often campaigned for
bringing the cats to live with us in the condo. I argued against it, for many
reasons. The cats eventually went missing from her mom's house (they were mostly
outdoors there) and are presumed dead.

We just bought a house together in a neighborhood full of pets and kids. My wife
now wants new cats.

My arguments for not getting cats:
- don't want to live in that smell again
- noise at night
- ADHD boy = cat(s) will get chased around the house a lot
- plenty of neighborhood cats that walk in to our yard regularly and are
friendly

Her arguments for getting cats:
- our son needs it for companionship/development/playmate (to give her a break
from being constant playmate for him during day)
- she doesn't want to continue to live without pets
- my discomfort with smells and sound are selfish/manageable, especially since my Aspergers diagnosis is incorrect.
- the misdiagnosis of AS is making me imagine discomforts, retroactively
exaggerating suffering
- my daughter wants cats too

What say you? It may sound trivial, but this is a huge issue for both of us, so
any help, thoughts, ideas welcome!

// Martin

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Sent from my iPad

Lunacie
10-08-11, 12:23 PM
First of all, my hat's off to you for living with the cats (smells and sounds)
for so long despite your Sensory issues. It could be that because you
managed to do that before, your wife thinks you should still be able to do
that "if you really wanted to." Arrrgh, I hate it when people have that
reaction.

I doubt that you can solve the problem of the cats until you solve your
wife's disbelief in your diagnosis. Has she gone with you to see the psy-
doc and listened to the reasons for that diagnosis? Has she read or
learned anything about Asperger's and Sensory Processing Disorder?
What are her reasons for denying the diagnosis?

W95.CIH
10-08-11, 12:39 PM
I had the same problem but luckily for me I set things straight. I told my partner that we could debate many things, but that there was one thing we could not debate: No animals in the house. This includes cats, dogs, pigs cows, chicken and such. I mean, you can't live in a civilized home and have animals, that just doesn't feel right to me.

Your wife has an affection deficit so she needs ''cute pets'' to stimulate her opioid channels and make her feel comfortable and in a good mood. One thing is sure, she will always want those cats or any other living play toy to play with to pet to caress to kiss to touch to God knows what. Another thing that's sure is as long as she doesn't get those pets she'll be cranky and in a bad mood. It's like a drug you know. Those who like pets like them a lot. They become dependent, I mean look at your wife, no matter what she does she keeps getting those things back.

I honestly don't know what advice to give you. If you put an ultimatum like, ''it's either me or the cats...'' it won't work because she'll never forgive you and only poison your relationship with her. What I would do is respond to her pet behavior by taking distance from her. She will get very uncomfortable at the idea that you might break up with her, and at that point SHE will have to make the choice weather it's you or the animals. When she makes the choice, she won't hate you or anything but if you give her an ultimatum she just won't forgive you.

W95.CIH
10-08-11, 12:40 PM
First of all, my hat's off to you for living with the cats (smells and sounds)
for so long despite your Sensory issues. It could be that because you
managed to do that before, your wife thinks you should still be able to do
that "if you really wanted to." Arrrgh, I hate it when people have that
reaction.

I doubt that you can solve the problem of the cats until you solve your
wife's disbelief in your diagnosis. Has she gone with you to see the psy-
doc and listened to the reasons for that diagnosis? Has she read or
learned anything about Asperger's and Sensory Processing Disorder?
What are her reasons for denying the diagnosis?

She doesn't want to believe in his diagnosis. She's addicted to the cats so she believes whatever keeps the cats in the house. It's horrible I know.

W95.CIH
10-08-11, 12:50 PM
- our son needs it for companionship/development/playmate (to give her a break from being constant playmate for him during day)


This is a good argument.

- she doesn't want to continue to live without pets

That's a drug addict's behavior right there.

- my discomfort with smells and sound are selfish/manageable, especially since my Aspergers diagnosis is incorrect.


Typical household terror tactics. I wouldn't fall for those but you have to be careful. Be firm but not insulting or cranky or it can degenerate.

- the misdiagnosis of AS is making me imagine discomforts, retroactively
exaggerating suffering

Wow. Just wow.

- my daughter wants cats too

Sure...Rofl.


Ok, so I think it's clear now. She is severely addicted to pet company and she cannot care less about you or your problems, she just wants her cats back. If the way you describe her is accurate, she probably needs therapy. You are a very tolerant...strong man. I would honestly lose my nerve, I don't know how you manage.

pechemignonne
10-08-11, 01:02 PM
Ok, so I think it's clear now. She is severely addicted to pet company and she cannot care less about you or your problems, she just wants her cats back. If the way you describe her is accurate, she probably needs therapy.That's just... bizarre. I've never heard of someone wanting pets as having an "addiction", unless you count the people on Hoarders who have dozens of animals that they can't care for.

The need for affection and closeness to other creatures is actually a normal, healthy human trait. It's not an addiction.

To the OP: I agree with Lunacie. She needs to understand and respect your diagnosis before she can understand and respect your need for an animal-free home.

As for my opinion, I think that if what you are saying is true, then it should be non-negotiable. It is not fair to expect you to be in that kind of discomfort in your own home. Your wife can visit friends who have animals if she wants, or even volunteer at a pet shelter. She could then immediately put the clothes she wore in the wash and shower upon returning in order to get rid of the odor, and set aside an outfit just for that purpose so that the smell would not bother you.

Regarding teaching your child about pet ownership: If you set aside your own needs because she doesn't understand your disability, you will be teaching your children a profound lesson about their own disabilities.

Lunacie
10-08-11, 01:03 PM
She doesn't want to believe in his diagnosis. She's addicted to the cats so she believes whatever keeps the cats in the house. It's horrible I know.

Are you actually inside his wife's head to know for sure what she "wants"?
What she "believes"? How do you feel you know these things?

W95.CIH
10-08-11, 01:14 PM
Are you actually inside his wife's head to know for sure what she "wants"?
What she "believes"? How do you feel you know these things?

Yes, I would go as far as saying I know everything about her. I could write a 1000 pages book about her and make it a bestseller.

Seriously speaking: It's her pleasure vs. his pain. She cannot give up her pleasure to relieve his pain = she has a problem. If my wife is in pain because of my pleasure, I STOP. Why? Because I care about her and don't want to see her like that. If she cannot STOP when she hurts her loved ones it's called an addictive behavior, same as alcohol, gambling etc.

RedHairedWitch
10-08-11, 01:17 PM
Hey, I love pets and a home doesn't feel like a home without them. Doesn't make me a cat addict lol

Is there the possibility of a compromise, or are you afraid of a slippery slope? Like only one cat, short hair, de-clawed (I know it's evil but may be required for him), neutered, not a kitten, must be bathed regularly, litter box in the basement and cleaned everyday, etc?

If not, then maybe the wife and kids could volunteer their time at a local animal shelter. They get their cuddles but you get your peace?

I dunno, this is tough one. Not being allowed pets would be a deal breaker for me. I'd totally dump your butt. However I understand that some sensory issues just can't be worked around and this might be a no-go for you.

W95.CIH
10-08-11, 01:20 PM
That's just... bizarre. I've never heard of someone wanting pets as having an "addiction", unless you count the people on Hoarders who have dozens of animals that they can't care for.

The need for affection and closeness to other creatures is actually a normal, healthy human trait. It's not an addiction.

I completely agree with you, loving pets and having them around is perfectly fine...UNTIL IT HURTS ANOTHER HUMAN BEING.

Lunacie
10-08-11, 01:22 PM
Yes, I would go as far as saying I know everything about her. I could write a 1000 pages book about her and make it a bestseller.

Seriously speaking: It's her pleasure vs. his pain. She cannot give up her pleasure to relieve his pain = she has a problem. If my wife is in pain because of my pleasure, I STOP. Why? Because I care about her and don't want to see her like that. If she cannot STOP when she hurts her loved ones it's called an addictive behavior, same as alcohol, gambling etc.

If this was a physical problem, I don't think she'd react the same way,
although of course she just might.

This is about her not accepting the neural pain, not accepting the
diagnosis, believing that his not wanting cats in the house is as much
a preference for him as wanting them is for her. She probably thinks he's
the one being selfish and addicted to getting his own way.

RedHairedWitch
10-08-11, 01:22 PM
W95.CIH (http://www.addforums.com/forums/member.php?u=56374) you're a little worked up over this. May I suggest you take it down a notch before you inadvertently insult or upset another member?

sarahsweets
10-08-11, 01:24 PM
Saying this woman has an addiction to cats is the dumbest thing I ever heard. I would like to see specific sources linking to pet addiction stimulating opioid receptors. I loved my cat, she had to be put down recently and I still cry for her. No addiction here just love and compassion.

W95.CIH
10-08-11, 01:24 PM
If this was a physical problem, I don't think she'd react the same way,
although of course she just might.

This is about her not accepting the neural pain, not accepting the
diagnosis, believing that his not wanting cats in the house is as much
a preference for him as wanting them is for her. She probably thinks he's
the one being selfish and addicted to getting his own way.

That's an interesting perspective lol

W95.CIH
10-08-11, 01:25 PM
Saying this woman has an addiction to cats is the dumbest thing I ever heard. I would like to see specific sources linking to pet addiction stimulating opioid receptors. I loved my cat, she had to be put down recently and I still cry for her. No addiction here just love and compassion.

That's withdrawal symptoms right there.


Just kidding :)

I believe in the traditional marriage you know, the husband loves his wife and the wife loves her husband, not: The husband loves his wife and his wife loves the cats. That's just not right lol

Lunacie
10-08-11, 01:46 PM
That's withdrawal symptoms right there.


Just kidding :)

I believe in the traditional marriage you know, the husband loves his wife and the wife loves her husband, not: The husband loves his wife and his wife loves the cats. That's just not right lol

Some of us are actually capable of loving both the spouse and the cats,
or dogs. It's not an either/or problem. It's not like parents stop loving
each other when they have babies because there isn't enough love for
everyone.

IF the situation involves a person who refuses to live without pets even
though the pets make the spouse sick, then there's a problem. It doesn't
sound like the OP's situation has become quite that critical yet.

W95.CIH
10-08-11, 01:51 PM
Some of us are actually capable of loving both the spouse and the cats,
or dogs. It's not an either/or problem. It's not like parents stop loving
each other when they have babies because there isn't enough love for
everyone.

IF the situation involves a person who refuses to live without pets even
though the pets make the spouse sick, then there's a problem. It doesn't
sound like the OP's situation has become quite that critical yet.

Well, do you want him to have a heart attack? Define ''sick''. :)

holmracing
10-08-11, 02:00 PM
Have you thought about having an outside pet? My husband is allergic to animals but i want my dogs. However because of his asthma they are outside pets. They go in the garage if it gets to cold outside for them. But never in the house as it makes his asthma act up. And i have my stray cats that i feed. Right now i do have a couple cats inside but this is only until I can find homes for them. But its a compromise. He doesn't have to be uncomfortable in our house and i get to have my animals. I go outside and play and cuddle them whenever i want.. so can the kids.

W95.CIH
10-08-11, 02:03 PM
You know, when you decide to have an animal, you must make sure that it is loved and cared for by everyone or else the animal might suffer. It's not the animal's fault that a family member doesn't love it the way it should be loved, it's the fault of the person who willingly brought the animal into the family knowing someone would not love and and knowing the animal might have to suffer because of it.

I am a living example. My parents bought a dog when I was in college despite that I firmly opposed it, because my mom needed one. The dog was waking me up during the night in my midterm periods so you can imagine that I got mad pretty quickly at the little thing. The dog probably sensed that I didn't have the best of feelings towards it and hated me in return, and started biting me.

Like, I would go fetch some cereals in the morning and the dog would jump me out of nowhere and bite my leg (he went crazy when I touched food) so I put up with it for a while, put band-aid on the wounds, nothing serious. But the biting continued and then I started kicking the dog. But the little thing was ambitious, it had no fear and kept biting, and I kept on kicking and one time I kicked it so hard it flied across the living-room sofa.

For the animal's sake, don't bring it in a family where it is not loved.

selita
10-08-11, 02:06 PM
Consider a dog, a small-to-medium breed that doesn't shed much. Their urine doesn't smell as strong as a cat's (although watch out if you have carpets). Males might mark indoors but females usually won't. Most dogs prefer to "go" outside anyway. Wash them at least once a month, brush their teeth daily, and they have a pretty minimal smell.

I've never owned a cat, I'm too allergic. I like them, but... As cute as cats are they're not what I'd pick if I wanted an affectionate playmate for a kid.

holmracing
10-08-11, 02:07 PM
You know, when you decide to have an animal, you must make sure that it is loved and cared for by everyone or else the animal might suffer. It's not the animal's fault that a family member doesn't love it the way it should be loved, it's the fault of the person who willingly brought the animal into the family knowing someone would not love and and knowing the animal might have to suffer because of it.

I am a living example. My parents bought a dog when I was in college despite that I firmly opposed it, because my mom needed one. The dog was waking me up during the night in my midterm periods so you can imagine that I got mad pretty quickly at the little thing. The dog probably sensed that I didn't have the best of feelings towards it and hated me in return, and started biting me.

Like, I would go fetch some cereals in the morning and the dog would jump me out of nowhere and bite my leg (he went crazy when I touched food) so I put up with it for a while, put band-aid on the wounds, nothing serious. But the biting continued and then I started kicking the dog. But the little thing was ambitious, it had no fear and kept biting, and I kept on kicking and one time I kicked it so hard it flied across the living-room sofa.

For the animal's sake, don't bring it in a family where it is not loved.

Of course it kept biting you.. you kept kicking it. Dogs will retaliate when they are threatened you know! And if you abuse them that is your fault not your moms or anyone else's. If any of my kids kicked my animals they would get be in deep deep trouble!!! I hope the dog was smart enough to only bite you!!!

W95.CIH
10-08-11, 02:12 PM
Of course it kept biting you.. you kept kicking it. Dogs will retaliate when they are threatened you know! And if you abuse them that is your fault not your moms or anyone else's. If any of my kids kicked my animals they would get be in deep deep trouble!!! I hope the dog was smart enough to only bite you!!!

Nobody threatened nobody, I would just go grab stuff and ignore the dog, and the dog would jump when you don't look. He would never jump when you looked at it, as soon as you don't look, he would bite you.

The dog would bite everyone, my dad too, especially when he was going to bed with my mom. Terrible jealousy crisis. It sounded like a ferocious beast being slayed and it was only a 10 pound Maltese.

During lunch, the dog would bark and bite family members if human food was not given to it. The dog refused to eat dog food. When I would give the dog a timeout in the bathroom for acting that way, my mom, out of compassion would free the dog and pet it, which caused the dog to believe his unacceptable behavior was correct.

Was it the dog's fault? Of course not. He wasn't properly trained. I carry 30% of the fault for not loving it, my dad carries 10% of the fault for going with my mom's decision and my mom carries 60% of the fault for bringing the dog in the family fully knowing it would not be loved and cared for by all the family members.

Also, when I was alone with the dog, the dog would behave perfectly. He would obey to my commands and not look in the eye. The biting occurred when the ''backup'' arrived.

Lunacie
10-08-11, 02:20 PM
Well, do you want him to have a heart attack? Define ''sick''. :)

I also have Sensory Processing Disorder. My daughter loves scented
candles and smelly beauty products, but because she loves me she
does without these things. She buys unscented laundry products.

My granddaughter loves spearmint chewing gum but that smell makes
me sick very quickly, so because she loves me she switched to a less
smelly chewing gum. Neither of them uses nail polish inside the house.

That's not "heart attack sick" but those smells certainly make me sick.
I doubt whether the smell or the noise of a cat would make the OP
"heart attack sick" either, but it is clearly very stressful for him to live
with cats in the house.


The problem here is that his wife doesn't believe that he's even sick -
she doesn't believe the diagnoses of Asperger's and Sensory Processing
Disorder. So she doesn't believe that living with cats actually is stressful
for him and makes him sick. The issue isn't that she loves cats more, it's
that she doesn't believe the diagnosis.

W95.CIH
10-08-11, 02:23 PM
I also have Sensory Processing Disorder. My daughter loves scented
candles and smelly beauty products, but because she loves me she
does without these things. She buys unscented laundry products.

My granddaughter loves spearmint chewing gum but that smell makes
me sick very quickly, so because she loves me she switched to a less
smelly chewing gum. Neither of them uses nail polish inside the house.

That's not "heart attack sick" but those smells certainly make me sick.
I doubt whether the smell or the noise of a cat would make the OP
"heart attack sick" either, but it is clearly very stressful for him to live
with cats in the house.


The problem here is that his wife doesn't believe that he's even sick -
she doesn't believe the diagnoses of Asperger's and Sensory Processing
Disorder. So she doesn't believe that living with cats actually is stressful
for him and makes him sick. The issue isn't that she loves cats more, it's
that she doesn't believe the diagnosis.

Yes but the husband can say the same about her. He may not believe either that she needs those cats. He can say her need is not that essential and discard it. It goes both ways lol.

RedHairedWitch
10-08-11, 02:37 PM
Yes but the husband can say the same about her. He may not believe either that she needs those cats. He can say her need is not that essential and discard it. It goes both ways lol.


That would be childish. You don't fix an issue in a relationship through retaliation.

They need to have a sit down. She needs to accept his diagnosis and his problems with living with pets. He needs to accept that having a pet matters very much to the wife and kids. Then they need to work out some kind of compromise.

The family can volunteer at an animal shelter, the kids could get riding lessons once a month and get to hang out at a farm, they could go to the petting zoo regularly, they could start dog walking for elderly neighbours, they could get a semi-outdoor pet like rabbits. etc

W95.CIH
10-08-11, 02:42 PM
That would be childish. You don't fix an issue in a relationship through retaliation.

They need to have a sit down. She needs to accept his diagnosis and his problems with living with pets. He needs to accept that having a pet matters very much to the wife and kids. Then they need to work out some kind of compromise.

The family can volunteer at an animal shelter, the kids could get riding lessons once a month and get to hang out at a farm, they could go to the petting zoo regularly, they could start dog walking for elderly neighbours, they could get a semi-outdoor pet like rabbits. etc

Yes of course and I like the idea about the rabbits. In fact I would suggest birds like perrots as a compromise. They are really cute and don't bother anyone with urine and feces.

Although I wouldn't even go for that myself either because I'm a hard case lol, it appears the OP could compromise on such things like parrots. My parents have 2 love birds and I would go as far as saying they are 1000x cuter then that ugly dog of theirs lol.

RedHairedWitch
10-08-11, 02:47 PM
*nods* or a snake, lizard or fish might also be a good compromise pet that aren't smelly or very noisy. No running around chasing them either.

pechemignonne
10-08-11, 02:59 PM
Some people can be allergic to birds. My mother was actually allergic to the cockatiel we had. And they can get smelly if not very well cared for as well.

But the whole other species idea is a great compromise, if the OP can find an animal that doesn't cause him the reactions he was talking about. If he can't, though, I don't think it's fair to make him uncomfortable, and I would think that the rest of the family would have to enjoy pets outside the home, volunteering or at friends' houses, etc.

RedHairedWitch
10-08-11, 03:03 PM
Something like a hamster or guinea pig or rabbit can be kept in one room of the house as well.

pechemignonne
10-08-11, 03:10 PM
I actually find those animals even smellier than cats or dogs, but then I have a friend who has a ferret and usually I find them pretty cute but a little gross and smelly. But she keeps the cage immaculate. Or, I should say, she makes sure her daughter keeps the cage immaculate. So it also I think about how much the family is willing to keep up the care of the animal, if they are willing to put in the effort to keep the cage and the animal non-smelly.

I got the impression, though, that the OP was really really sensitive to the smell of animals... I think it might take visiting other people who have different kinds fo pets to see what they're like, to be able to tell how much it might bother him.

sarahsweets
10-08-11, 03:11 PM
Wh95 : why would anyone keep a vicious dog? At any rate kicking a dog is mean you out weigh the dog and have an advantage. Restraining the dog or letting it chase you into a place to isolate him seems nicer. How old were you when this happened?

W95.CIH
10-08-11, 03:33 PM
Wh95 : why would anyone keep a vicious dog? At any rate kicking a dog is mean you out weigh the dog and have an advantage. Restraining the dog or letting it chase you into a place to isolate him seems nicer. How old were you when this happened?

It wasn't one incident it was 100s of incidents like this. Every morning the dog would jump me for no reason. In fact I don't recall a day when the dog didn't jump me. The fact that the dog was small allowed many misbehavior problems to slip by unnoticed and unpunished. If the dog was a doberman or a rotweiler with that behavior, then grabbing a knife would have been the only way out because my parents had zero authority on the dog. The dog was sole ruler and didn't listen to anyone, except to me when I was alone with him, else the dog would go by my parents and bark me (question my authority once refuge was found) or jump me when I don't look. Very smart dog, very manipulative and very vicious. If it was a dumb dog I have no doubts it would be lovely but the damned thing had brains.

If it was a big dog like that they would have probably euthanized him after such incident. People refuse to believe that such a small dog can actually want to kill somebody, and the fact that its size doesn't allow it only increases its frustration and feeds its rage.

Impetus
10-08-11, 03:44 PM
Her arguments for getting cats:
- our son needs it for companionship/development/playmate (to give her a break
from being constant playmate for him during day)

she's kidding, right? this is just ridiculous. cats hate little kids!


- she doesn't want to continue to live without pets
there's people in Africa that don't want to continue to live without clean water... what's her point?


- my discomfort with smells and sound are selfish/manageable, especially since my Aspergers diagnosis is incorrect.

you disagree with her, so she attacks your character?


- the misdiagnosis of AS is making me imagine discomforts, retroactively
exaggerating suffering

let's just cut to the chase, your comfort isn't part of the equation.


- my daughter wants cats too

your daughter probably wants a unicorn too.


not sure if anyone else picked up on this, but this IS NOT about a cat. Based on the arguments presented, it sounds like she's pretty immature and a manipulator.

this sounds like a terrible situation for an animal.

is there anything you can trade for the cat thing?? There's nothing wrong with negotiating your way out of this.

W95.CIH
10-08-11, 03:51 PM
^^

Style: A+
Coherence: A+
Argumentation: A+

Best post made so far on this forum. Needs to be stickied in case other persons have cat problems.

Impetus
10-08-11, 04:13 PM
^^

Style: A+
Coherence: A+
Argumentation: A+

Best post made so far on this forum. Needs to be stickied in case other persons have cat problems.

some people say I'm a smart ***. I have no idea why. :rolleyes:

kilted_scotsman
10-08-11, 07:28 PM
I get where the OP is coming from.

Other peoples cats are OK in other peoples houses....I tolerate other peoples dogs(just).

For me it's non-negotiable. I get the nausea thing with petfood... and the crap. Jees round here people pick up their dogs crap in a little bag and put it in their pocket... that grosses me out to the point I nearly retch.

The cat/dog/pet thing seems to be tied up in a need to be loved totally and unconditionally..... I had that battle with my ex..... funnily enough it seems to occur around the time the youngest kid gets a mind of it's own and there's no chance of another pregnancy.

Just my view

kilted

Spacemaster
10-08-11, 09:56 PM
As Impetus stated, Cats and and an ADHD child? hahahahahaha! Yes, most cats dislike children because they are too rammy, even NT children, and add ADHD into the mix and I can guarantee you that a cat will HATE the kid. So far, I don't think/know if my little boy has ADHD, but I've had to teach him how to interact with the cats so they don't run away or scratch him. He has made progress, and he really does well, but the one cat still doesn't completely trust him.

I don't know if it is or isn't just about the cat. I do know that even if the OP simply doesn't like cats, his diagnosis shouldn't even necessarily factor in. If he was NT and absolutely despised cats, out of respect for her partner, she shouldn't subject him to something he loathes. It sounds like she loves and wants those cats no matter what, she's just finding excuses to get her way.

I know that if I were in a relationship with somehow who, I dunno, loved yappy little dogs for example, I would have some serious thinking to do. I hate those wretched little animals, but I would have to weigh my hatred for them against my love for my partner, and make a decision. This person will always love their yappy dogs, and always want them, and I had better be prepared to either live with it, or leave said partner. On the other hand, if said partner really loved me and wanted to be with me, they might just have to decide to keep the yappers, or keep me. :)

Since they are already together and have children, the OP and his partner may wish to seek counseling. It seems like a silly thing to get therapy for at first glance, but it seems like a real point of contention. If someone were to ask me to give up my cats, I may just hit the road! Best of luck!

ADHDTigger
10-09-11, 12:22 AM
Hubby and I were lucky- we both loved cats. We ended up with three, initially- his, mine and ours.

Since he passed away, I live with mine and ours. His kitty died a couple of months before he did. While I love them dearly, I also know well the issues that you are dealing with.

A Litter Maid (self cleaning litter box) is a gift from the heavens that will cost you around $90 at the local Wal-Mart. Because it automatically clears waste into a contained tray within minutes of the cat using it, smell is less a factor. I have used them and love them.

She needs to grow the f**k up regarding your AS. Medical ethics don't allow docs to diagnose or treat family members. She isn't an MD- but if she were in practice as a psychology PhD, would need to adhere to the same ethos. She is not- under any circumstances- qualified to diagnose you. PERIOD. WAY too much unseen and un-comprehended personal bias at work.

A (read: ONE) cat might be something that you can compromise over. The family needs to recognize that the cat coming into the house needs to be well chosen. Specifically, YOU need to be an integral part of the choice.

Cat people tend to be cat people. Hubby and I had cats. We *thought* about a dog, but never seriously considered one.

Have no idea why this derailed... but this should get us on track again.

ginniebean
10-09-11, 12:29 AM
Seems simple and straight forward. No pets. It does NOT matter if you have an AS diagnosis or NOT! You are put thru a level of discomfort that means you cannot be comfortable in your own home.

You need to seperate the issue. You're not being selfish to want to be comfortable in your own home. If you cannot be comfortable because of your issues with cats then it's a done deal. Anyone suggesting you put yourself thru daily discomfort to please THEM has issues of selfishness THEY need to deal with.

ADHDTigger
10-09-11, 12:40 AM
Ginnie brings good sense to the table...

If you are open to allowing a cat, the tips I suggest are helpful. If you aren't, the fact that you aren't should not be held against you.

You can't give what you don't have. If a pet in the house- feline to reptile- causes discomfort, you become less able to give your best self to wife AND child.

I still think that your wife needs a good dose of hard reality. Possibly another shot at that class on ethics. My opinion. Not a rule for anyone else.

bassic
10-09-11, 02:00 AM
First of all, my hat's off to you for living with the cats (smells and sounds)
for so long despite your Sensory issues. It could be that because you
managed to do that before, your wife thinks you should still be able to do
that "if you really wanted to."

Correct. She feels that in the past few years, i'm changing into a different person than who she met/married, and that it's not possible that I endured the pet issue in the past if I can't endure it again.

I doubt that you can solve the problem of the cats until you solve your wife's disbelief in your diagnosis.

That's possible. It's also possible that it might not matter. I get the feeling that this discussion (and many others) would not be very different even if she believed the diagnoses in full. She is mainly disbelieving that the sacrifices/compromises in the past were that big of a deal for me, and therefore this whole sensory/Asperger's stuff is something I use to amplify a minor, selfish inconvenience.

Has she gone with you to see the psy-
doc and listened to the reasons for that diagnosis?

No.

Has she read or learned anything about Asperger's and Sensory Processing Disorder? What are her reasons for denying the diagnosis?

She know a lot about these things (she's got a doctorate in Psychology). Her reason for disbelieving the AS diagnosis is that she feels that I am too "functional" to fit the bill. (She agrees with the ADHD part of the diagnosis though). She does not dispute that I have many traits that mimic AS, but she does not believe I actually have it. She believes this is because the diagnosing psychiatrist mistook giftedness and various obsessions/ruminations for AS - and now I'm talking myself myself into pathologizing and exaggerating issues that are trivial in comparison to her and my son's emotional needs. However - the diagnosing psychiatrist did a full, thorough evaluation (Four 1-hour sessions, dedicated to nothing but diagnosis) and there was no doubt about the AS on his end. The DSM-IV Global Assessment of Functioning score was 58 (of 100). That doesn't sound like "a high functioning guy with some minor sensory inconveniences and some selfish habits he needs to snap out of" kind of assessment to me...

And yes, as many of you pointed out - clearly this issue is much larger than this pet discussion itself. There are many other, similar disagreements where I'm under the impression that I'm trying insanely hard and doing her gigantic favors, while in reality I'm just barely passing the "bare minimums" of normal behavior when it comes to social events, travels, holiday celebrations –*things I'd ignore and avoid completely if I could as they cause me lots of anxiety, confusion and grief.

Here's the kicker though: I really, really love her. I've changed 95% of my life, habits and behavior for her - and I really want to continue to all I can to make it work... so it's very delicate and important at the same time as it's enormously stressful and difficult just to pass the basic minimum requirements of what's normal every day.

Thank you all for your thoughts on this.
I really appreciate your input!

bassic
10-09-11, 02:32 AM
Is there the possibility of a compromise, or are you afraid of a slippery slope?

Yes, I am ready to discuss compromises. Heck, I'm compromising with 99% of my life as it stands right now - i could easily write a 10-page document about what I'm doing and not doing today that I would not even consider joking about 10 years ago... :)

That's why am trying to find other people's perspective and ideas on this - and it's very helpful to read and discuss this with you guys.

Not being allowed pets would be a deal breaker for me. I'd totally dump your butt.

I'm not saying she's not allowed to have pets. I'm just explaining to her now that it's not just a simple "I don't want pets" - it's "I'm really, really, really having a severe pathological problem with having pets in my home, and I'm not sure I can endure it again like I did those years in the past."

I realize I should have explained the severity to her from day 1, and not 6 years later. But I quickly understood back then that she would - just like you said you would do - dump my butt over that issue then, and I simply wasn't willing to lose her, so I suffered instead...

bassic
10-09-11, 02:42 AM
I got the impression, though, that the OP was really really sensitive to the smell of animals...

Correct. All pet smells bother me. And lots of people-smells too.And people-foods. And sounds - background hums, barely audible co-workers' conversations 5 offices down from mine (+ the other ones in office 2-4 as well, + the crappy music someone plays in *their headphones* across the hall + the smell from the garbage can 2 rooms away, +.....)

sarahsweets
10-09-11, 09:04 AM
Im really sorry you are going through this. Maybe I'm simplifying this too much but the lack of validation is just not right. You were DIAGNOSED. You didnt make it up. The impact that it has on your life will NOT be limited to pets. Yes you will want to work on yourself to make it easier for you to function and be understood but you should never have to defend yourself over a condition you were BORN with. No one decides they want a disorder. They have it and spend years learning to cope in an ignorant world. Your ssnsory issues should trump her desire for a cat. My cat just died and I'm so sad but hubby feels we might not get so lucky finding another wonderful kitty so for now I'm not pushing the issue because i love him and my desire for another cat does not mean more to me then him.

I really feel that you need counseling and to have her meet your doctor to understand your legitimate condition. So what if she is a psychology major. Its clear she doesn't understand or respect a valid condition. This is just my opinion so take it with a grain of salt.

Impetus
10-09-11, 09:43 AM
Correct. She feels that in the past few years, i'm changing into a different person than who she met/married, and that it's not possible that I endured the pet issue in the past if I can't endure it again.

that's a bit non sequitor-ish...

No. It would be more accurate to sy you've learned from life.... Specifically, you've learned that you don't like living with cats!

(Tigg has a good point about the LitterMaid. They are pretty awesome. Get the cheapest one, the higher priced models aren't worth the extra cash.)



That's possible. It's also possible that it might not matter. I get the feeling that this discussion (and many others) would not be very different even if she believed the diagnoses in full. She is mainly disbelieving that the sacrifices/compromises in the past were that big of a deal for me, and therefore this whole sensory/Asperger's stuff is something I use to amplify a minor, selfish inconvenience.

how can she know your inner experiences if you aren't permitted to acknowledge them? (don't say that. them's probably fightn' words for a psy doc.)

but seriously, I'm not hearing an enviroment conducive to allowing yourself to experience emotions.


She know a lot about these things (she's got a doctorate in Psychology). Her reason for disbelieving the AS diagnosis is that she feels that I am too "functional" to fit the bill. (She agrees with the ADHD part of the diagnosis though). She does not dispute that I have many traits that mimic AS, but she does not believe I actually have it. She believes this is because the diagnosing psychiatrist mistook giftedness and various obsessions/ruminations for AS - and now I'm talking myself myself into pathologizing and exaggerating issues that are trivial in comparison to her and my son's emotional needs. However - the diagnosing psychiatrist did a full, thorough evaluation (Four 1-hour sessions, dedicated to nothing but diagnosis) and there was no doubt about the AS on his end. The DSM-IV Global Assessment of Functioning score was 58 (of 100). That doesn't sound like "a high functioning guy with some minor sensory inconveniences and some selfish habits he needs to snap out of" kind of assessment to me...

psychology seems to be something that must be practiced and worked on constantly.... college is the foundation we build upon, but clinical experience is what gives us the "structure."

To be blunt, she hasn't practiced in quite sometime. There is always new information coming out. And didn't they just make some BIG changes to the DSM?

an unbiased third party could be in order....


And yes, as many of you pointed out - clearly this issue is much larger than this pet discussion itself. There are many other, similar disagreements where I'm under the impression that I'm trying insanely hard and doing her gigantic favors, while in reality I'm just barely passing the "bare minimums" of normal behavior when it comes to social events, travels, holiday celebrations *things I'd ignore and avoid completely if I could as they cause me lots of anxiety, confusion and grief.

who said "normal" is right??

denying women the right to vote used to be "normal."
segregating schools used to be "normal."
sterilizing people that are borderline mentally retarded used to be "normal."
the smell from Auschwitz became pretty "normal" to the neighboring villages.

I could keep going, but I'll spare you....


Here's the kicker though: I really, really love her. I've changed 95% of my life, habits and behavior for her - and I really want to continue to all I can to make it work... so it's very delicate and important at the same time as it's enormously stressful and difficult just to pass the basic minimum requirements of what's normal every day.


Speaking from experience, this way of life is going to get harder and harder to maintain. The "rules" will keep coming, and the anxiety will continue to build. Being disconected from ourselves is a hard life. It's impossible for most.


Correct. All pet smells bother me. And lots of people-smells too.And people-foods. And sounds - background hums, barely audible co-workers' conversations 5 offices down from mine (+ the other ones in office 2-4 as well, + the crappy music someone plays in *their headphones* across the hall + the smell from the garbage can 2 rooms away, +.....)

My sniffer can pic up who does/doesn't floss their teeth regularly. Dentures, I smell 'em. Diabetics, I can sniff them out too. It sucks!

ginniebean
10-09-11, 09:48 AM
There are many other, similar disagreements where I'm under the impression that I'm trying insanely hard and doing her gigantic favors, while in reality I'm just barely passing the "bare minimums" of normal behavior when it comes to social events, travels, holiday celebrations *things I'd ignore and avoid completely if I could as they cause me lots of anxiety, confusion and grief.

Here's the kicker though: I really, really love her. I've changed 95% of my life, habits and behavior for her - and I really want to continue to all I can to make it work... so it's very delicate and important at the same time as it's enormously stressful and difficult just to pass the basic minimum requirements of what's normal every day.




There is a real problem when our efforts get discounted. The strain of trying to do as much as we do is often not acknowledged and not even particularly appreciated.

This cannot continue, eventually you're coping could collapse and then your "bare minimum' in her eyes could plummet to well below anything she can dream of. We see this all the time, people who just can't continue to please their partner and the bottom just falls out.

Your partner acknowledges your ADHD but even if you ONLY had adhd her inability to recognise the cost to you to meet her demands is typical but frankly abysmal.

You do need to speak up, you do need to say you count too in this relationship. She's seeing the tip of the iceberg but she needs to be aware that it IS an iceberg.

I sincerely do suggest councelling. I sincerely suggest you take your OWN words very seriously.

Ganjin
10-09-11, 10:14 AM
Well, lots of good observations and advice along this thread. I'll just voice my opinion in support of a couple of points that have already been made...

First, I think the OP made a big mistake when he caved on the cat issue several years ago. Nobody should have to live in that level of discomfort. If you had put your foot down back then, I don't know what would have happened. Maybe the relationship would have ended; I don't know. But when you caved on the issue, you created a long-term expectation in your partner's mind about pets.

Second, if I give the OP the full benefit of the doubt in his version of events, then there can only be two possible explanations why his partner would insist on bringing cats back into the house:
(a) she simply doesn't understand the level of discomfort that cats cause you (the OP), or
(b) she simply doesn't care about the the level of discomfort the cats cause.

If the problem is "a", then you must do what's necessary to make her understand. If the problem is "b", well... That really is a big problem. These are the only two possibilities I can see.

Ganjin
10-09-11, 10:19 AM
On a lighter note, I would like you to know that I have two cats that annoy me to no end. They both have one saving grace: they love my children. They've loved my daughters even when they were little babies, contrary to what many others have said about cats and children on this thread.

So, if you decide to compromise on this issue please send me your wife's name and address so that I can ship these cats to her without further ado! I'll throw in free bags of food, claw clippers, blankets, cash, whatever you want....
(please note that I'm kidding, and nobody should post a real name and address on a public forum!)

pechemignonne
10-09-11, 11:14 AM
Correct. She feels that in the past few years, i'm changing into a different person than who she met/married...
Hmm... this sounds like a very serious statement about her feelings about you. I think you really do need couples' counselling.

That's possible. It's also possible that it might not matter. I get the feeling that this discussion (and many others) would not be very different even if she believed the diagnoses in full. She is mainly disbelieving that the sacrifices/compromises in the past were that big of a deal for me, and therefore this whole sensory/Asperger's stuff is something I use to amplify a minor, selfish inconvenience.
Again, big red flags here. I think that her lack of empathy and her presumption that you have some manipulative motivation for your diagnosis is a sign of some real problems, some big underlying resentment or anger.

She know a lot about these things (she's got a doctorate in Psychology). Her reason for disbelieving the AS diagnosis is that she feels that I am too "functional" to fit the bill. (She agrees with the ADHD part of the diagnosis though). She does not dispute that I have many traits that mimic AS, but she does not believe I actually have it. She believes this is because the diagnosing psychiatrist mistook giftedness and various obsessions/ruminations for AS - and now I'm talking myself myself into pathologizing and exaggerating issues that are trivial in comparison to her and my son's emotional needs.
As my own therapist used to say, never presume that a degree in psychology makes a person any more self-aware or able to see their own lives and the people in it with any more clarity than any of the rest of us.

However - the diagnosing psychiatrist did a full, thorough evaluation (Four 1-hour sessions, dedicated to nothing but diagnosis) and there was no doubt about the AS on his end. The DSM-IV Global Assessment of Functioning score was 58 (of 100). That doesn't sound like "a high functioning guy with some minor sensory inconveniences and some selfish habits he needs to snap out of" kind of assessment to me...
Again, this is not the kind of description of you that indicates that she is able to feel empathy or understanding towards you at all. There is something very, very wrong here.

Here's the kicker though: I really, really love her. I've changed 95% of my life, habits and behavior for her - and I really want to continue to all I can to make it work... so it's very delicate and important at the same time as it's enormously stressful and difficult just to pass the basic minimum requirements of what's normal every day.
Look, I don't know you, and I'm not your doctor or your therapist, so this is just my opinion. If you love her, and you want to make the relationship work, then as I said, get thee to couples therapy, stat. However, the outcome may not be what you want it to be. It takes two people to make a relationship work, and she has to be willing to make changes too. If she is not, and if she cannot be more empathetic and more trusting of your good intentions than she seems to be right now from how you describe her in your posts, then it may be better for you to not be with her.

Because changing 95% of yourself for someone else is not love, IMHO, it's loss of self. Something is happening within her and within you that seems to have caused you both to agree that you do not deserve basic respect. And until that changes, whether or not you two stay together, I believe that you will continue to have problems.

Lunacie
10-09-11, 04:35 PM
>
Here's the kicker though: I really, really love her. I've changed 95% of my life, habits and behavior for her - and I really want to continue to all I can to make it work... so it's very delicate and important at the same time as it's enormously stressful and difficult just to pass the basic minimum requirements of what's normal every day.

Thank you all for your thoughts on this.
I really appreciate your input!

That is not a good relationship. No one should have to change themselves
that much for another person. By the way, how much has SHE changed
to make it work? Are you doing all the giving and all the work?

bassic
10-09-11, 06:39 PM
I really feel that you need counseling and to have her meet your doctor to understand your legitimate condition. So what if she is a psychology major. Its clear she doesn't understand or respect a valid condition.

Counseling makes a lot of sense, however, not sure how I it could be done logistically in our current situation. We have no babysitting resources. I work a very high-stress job (advertising) that takes lots of my time and energy day and nights + we have a high needs child that sucks up all the rest (it seems) and makes it very hard to find any babysitters. They tend to come up with excuses to not return after a few trial sessions. We also have zero family support (my family is all in Europe - and my wife has cut all contact with hers.)

We're just emotionally and mentally sucked dry - so regardless of my discomfort, adding more responsibilities to the mix with pets seems fantastically counter-productive to our situation. We can't even find time/opportunity to have a proper conversation anymore...

Counseling sounds great, but logistically unlikely :/

Any tips on how to break this madness?

bassic
10-09-11, 07:07 PM
That is not a good relationship. No one should have to change themselves that much for another person. By the way, how much has SHE changed to make it work? Are you doing all the giving and all the work?

She's changed quite a lot of things too. She used to be a city girl, loving to travel, party, find new restaurants, going to clubs etc. Of course, I'd be perfectly fine with her continuing doing these things with her friends, but the snag is that she wants to do them with ME. And Im trying to comply, but I simply can't ever get to the point where I truly enjoy any of those thing - at best, I quietly suffer while dealing with the noise/chaos and trying not to think about what I should/could be doing instead. So she's stopped suggesting a lot of this, as she knows she's dragging me along. Lots of resentment and disappointments.

In other words, I'm doing an enormous amount of work, but for a result that is invisible, at best. :(

Impetus
10-09-11, 07:12 PM
cats sound like more of a band aid, than a solution. it sounds like you're both really hurting.

not sure how feasible it would be, but what about during lunch time? that's when I see my therapist. does your wife have any friends that can watch your son? maybe during his nap time... some therapists are very aware of how hard it is for folks to get an appointment, so they work on weekends and evenings. just throwing thoughts out there.


my work is super stressful (tax cost managment) and we live very far from the city.

cattail
10-16-11, 04:17 PM
replied then realized I missed 3 pages of discussion and what I said was irrelevant

pechemignonne
10-16-11, 07:10 PM
Counseling makes a lot of sense, however, not sure how I it could be done logistically in our current situation. We have no babysitting resources. I work a very high-stress job (advertising) that takes lots of my time and energy day and nights + we have a high needs child that sucks up all the rest (it seems) and makes it very hard to find any babysitters. They tend to come up with excuses to not return after a few trial sessions. We also have zero family support (my family is all in Europe - and my wife has cut all contact with hers.)

We're just emotionally and mentally sucked dry - so regardless of my discomfort, adding more responsibilities to the mix with pets seems fantastically counter-productive to our situation. We can't even find time/opportunity to have a proper conversation anymore...

Counseling sounds great, but logistically unlikely :/

Any tips on how to break this madness?
It really doesn't sound like you guys have time or energy to take care of a pet, anyway.

LynneC
10-16-11, 09:49 PM
She's changed quite a lot of things too. She used to be a city girl, loving to travel, party, find new restaurants, going to clubs etc. Of course, I'd be perfectly fine with her continuing doing these things with her friends, but the snag is that she wants to do them with ME. And Im trying to comply, but I simply can't ever get to the point where I truly enjoy any of those thing - at best, I quietly suffer while dealing with the noise/chaos and trying not to think about what I should/could be doing instead. So she's stopped suggesting a lot of this, as she knows she's dragging me along. Lots of resentment and disappointments.

In other words, I'm doing an enormous amount of work, but for a result that is invisible, at best. :(
Does she have any type of social life or friends where you live now? Do you know any other married couples with small kids?

Does she have play dates for your son with other SAH moms, or is she the sole entertainment for your son during the day? Are there programs in your area that she could be involved in that would allow her to meet other SAH moms, if she doesn't know any/many?

Getting a cat or kitten for a 3 year old (any 3 year old, let alone one with possible ADHD) is not the best of ideas, IMO. If one of her main reasons is as a companion for your 3 year old, there are much better ways to occupy a 3 year old than with an animal that could potentially be injured or could injure your child.

Possum
10-17-11, 12:24 AM
It sounds like you two have many differences - she loves the city, you want to be in the country; she likes to travel, you prefer to stay at home; she loves animals, you don't. She is a stay at home Mom of a special needs child and probably is dying for some adult stimulation and inter-action at the end of the day. You work an exhausting, stressful job and just want to chill out and relax. It doesn't sound as though either of you are getting your needs met. The cats are just a symptom of the dysfunction that is going on in your relationship. You guys need therapy and you should make that your number one priority if you want to stay together. There are people and agencies that specialize in respite care for individuals with high needs. I bet if you talked to a therapist, they could probably refer you to an appropriate child care provider.

And don't get any cats. I love cats and I cringe inwardly to think of innocent animals thrown into the middle of a situation such as you describe.

Massari
10-17-11, 06:29 PM
The worst diseases known by man such as HIV, H1N1 and SARS came from the co-habitation of man and animals. Similarly to you sir, I live in my home with my beautiful wife Kate and I could never tolerate living with an animal. I would feel insulted if my wife was seeking animal affection. It's like saying ''you don't provide me with enough affection so I need to get it from a cat''. I would demand serious explanations.

Most importantly, when my wife and I make love, I like the affection part and all that fun playtime. Would any man feel comfortable knowing she walked with her feet into animal hair/urine from all around the apartment and touching animals with her bare hands? I wouldn't even let her touch me...not even after 10 showers. ewwww :(

Impetus
10-17-11, 07:36 PM
The worst diseases known by man such as HIV, H1N1 and SARS came from the co-habitation of man and animals. Similarly to you sir, I live in my home with my beautiful wife Kate and I could never tolerate living with an animal. I would feel insulted if my wife was seeking animal affection. It's like saying ''you don't provide me with enough affection so I need to get it from a cat''. I would demand serious explanations.

Most importantly, when my wife and I make love, I like the affection part and all that fun playtime. Would any man feel comfortable knowing she walked with her feet into animal hair/urine from all around the apartment and touching animals with her bare hands? I wouldn't even let her touch me...not even after 10 showers. ewwww :(

I get what you're saying... just a thought, that germs and dirt are GOOD for us to a certain extent. Makes our immune systems stronger. Hiding from germs can make us sick too.

Massari
10-17-11, 07:48 PM
I get what you're saying... just a thought, that germs and dirt are GOOD for us to a certain extent. Makes our immune systems stronger. Hiding from germs can make us sick too.

Yes, what doesn`t kill you will make you stronger but make no mistake: animal viruses have the potential to kill you. Animals have different DNA, body metabolism and immune system. Dogs have 102F body temperature. Viruses that are inoffensive to them, a bit like our own harmless bacteria helping with our digestion, can be deadly to humans, as in, you contact it, hours later you`re dead from respiratory depression.

It was seen in China when countrymen slept with chicken and pigs inside a human habitation due to lack of living conditions. That`s when the swine flu, the avian flu and SARS emerged. Those are all terrible diseases that claimed millions of lives.

Impetus
10-17-11, 07:53 PM
It was seen in China when countrymen slept with chicken and pigs ....

Us Americans don't tolerate those sort of shenanigans! :p

I'm totally kidding. sorry, that was just the first thing that popped in my head....

I don't have a leg to stand on as far as viruses (or should it be viri) moving between species. Generally, they aren't supposed to but you're right, they can and do.

KronarTheBlack
10-17-11, 09:01 PM
I hatedislike pets and my wife dislikes pets. I tolerate other peoples pets because they are my friends. I had pets growing up and did not like them at all. I don't care what my kids say in the future at best they are getting a pet spider/lizard/fish... Something you can keep in a cage/tank.

There are many reasons mostly due to their lack of hygiene and they are very annoying to me.

Massari
10-17-11, 09:35 PM
I hatedislike pets and my wife dislikes pets. I tolerate other peoples pets because they are my friends. I had pets growing up and did not like them at all. I don't care what my kids say in the future at best they are getting a pet spider/lizard/fish... Something you can keep in a cage/tank.

There are many reasons mostly due to their lack of hygiene and they are very annoying to me.

You are ever so right my friend. Animals bring a touch of post-modern pessimism, where the townsman (evolved from the countryman)starts to feel insecure in the modern society and adopts a post-modern lifestyle. There are many clues to identify a person struck by post modern pessimism:

- owns/collects antiquarian objects like old furniture and takes great pride at possessing them. Refusal to modernize although much better/cheaper furniture is available.
- possesses a large history book collection thus, prefers living in the past. Most post modern pessimists would agree to go back in 1850 irreversibly if a time machine would allow that transition.
- mistrusts/despises science although rarely religious but adores culture, especially old paintings, art expositions, museums and anything that has to do with the past.