I was wondering if anyone else had this problem, or maybe even the opposite of this problem and if anyone thinks this is relevant to their ADD. I cannot argue a point effectively. What usually happens is that when I disagree with someone or even get a little angry, its like my brain shuts down and I cannot access coherent, intelligent thoughts and consequently come off looking like an idiot. It happens all the time and its like one little part of my brain (anger, disagreement, hurt, intimidation) gets fully engaged and then the Reasoning part of my brain just shuts down. Does anyone else have this going on?

Yes all theTime eactly the same thing happens to me. I also tend to get frustrated as the aregument continues and say hurtful things instead of getting to the point.

I have problems conveying the thoughts that are racing around in my head during an argument. Once that little bit of anger sets in then I might as well shut up and sit down.
Do you find that as you argue that you tend to get louder?!?

Well I can't argue effectively but its not exactly the same as what you are describing. When I'm not on my meds, I have this really bad problem where I believe that I am always right and I'll actually argue a point that I know to be false sometimes, just to screw with people of lesser intelligence. It actually annoys the crap out of most people because they know I'm wrong but they can't prove it and I'll actually pull some source off the internet that proves my point even if its not actually true just to screw with them further. I'm the only one who finds my mind games funny usually though...

I was wondering if anyone else had this problem, or maybe even the opposite of this problem and if anyone thinks this is relevant to their ADD. I cannot argue a point effectively. What usually happens is that when I disagree with someone or even get a little angry, its like my brain shuts down and I cannot access coherent, intelligent thoughts and consequently come off looking like an idiot. It happens all the time and its like one little part of my brain (anger, disagreement, hurt, intimidation) gets fully engaged and then the Reasoning part of my brain just shuts down. Does anyone else have this going on?basically *all* the time!
:(

Yes...I am terrible at this. It's sooooo frustrating when I have a valid point on something, and I can't get it across to other people...I either can't find the right words, or can't get my thoughts together enough to spit it out. I have no problem accepting when I'm wrong...but to know that I'm right...or to just know that I have a different valid perspective...and not be able to get it across to the other person...so utterly frustrating. Makes me feel inadequate. Makes me feel stupid, even though I know I'm not. Grrr

See whats weird is that even if I was wrong, I just assumed the other person was wrong because of my strong belief that I'm right a 100% of the time. So a lot of the time people think I'm just BSing them, only to find that I was actually right all along but couldn't explain it on their lower level of intelligence. I'm actually right about 98% of the time, but no one listens or maybe they just don't want to know the truth. Ignorance is bliss. I wish I didn't know half of what I actually do.

I guess I'm the odd man out: I argue very effectively, because I have a good eye and ear for logical flaws and problems with reasoning, and I am good at counterpointing arguments...I only argue points on which I am certain I am correct, though, so...

Yes I can argue a point. I speak as if the points I am making are indisputable and beyond question. I have a broad base of knowledge from half a lifetime intense curiosity. Often I come across as being a "know it all". Not an attractive trait to ease ones way into social circles.

Although I speak and write with some conviction I remain wide open to challenge. Most people don't see that though and assume I'm not open to being questioned.

My wife Pierrette is as linear as they come and has won medals for her expertise in debating. I'm a bit of a "free form" type of debater/dancer/lover/younameit.. I don't know what's made the difference but my skills in arguing have improved to a remarkable degree over the last year.

As Pierrette and I struggled through some issues with our youngest daughter this summer I found myself making points so clear that Pierrette was reduced to irrational answers to buy some time to think up a response. It was spooky and upset the balance of the relationship to it's core. We are still dealing with the fall out.

I remember being so frustrated in the beginning of the relationship because she'd take three days to get back to me on something we had been arguing about whereas I could just dive right in and usually almost as effectively.

Whatever the case, I'm more capable now of maintaining a thread of thought. I noticed it again the other night when I was doing dishes with a fellow who's family was over for dinner. We had an interesting and varied discussion going on a number of topics. I was trying to tie in a relevant book I was reading into the points he was making and spun off on three separate tangents to make my point. I must have spoken for three or four minutes straight and about half way through I thought to myself, "I'm never going to find my way home from this!" but I did. I was very pleased that I'd been able to tie up all the points and not lose my way. I was surprised and thrilled really. I don't remember that type of thing happening before.

Normally what happens to me in a situation like that is that I have this flash of insight and launch into a monologue only to bail out half way through and say something like "sorry.. I lost my train of thought". I absolutely hate that! It's happened a way too often. So much so that I now don't really talk much in a social situation. I much prefer the calm reflection of writing.

I am doing so many things to try and help my ADHD that it's impossible to tell what part of my effort might be helping on this front. I expect that the exercise and the food are probably as important as the medication though if I was to guess.
ian

I was wondering if anyone else had this problem, or maybe even the opposite of this problem and if anyone thinks this is relevant to their ADD. I cannot argue a point effectively. What usually happens is that when I disagree with someone or even get a little angry, its like my brain shuts down and I cannot access coherent, intelligent thoughts and consequently come off looking like an idiot. It happens all the time and its like one little part of my brain (anger, disagreement, hurt, intimidation) gets fully engaged and then the Reasoning part of my brain just shuts down. Does anyone else have this going on?That's exactly me. It's so nice to hear that I'm not the only one dealing with this frustration. My sister-in-law lives with us and is very aggressive and jumps at the chance to argue, and often I quite strongly disagree with her. But when I try to dispute her arguments, I end up sounding totally dumb because my brain shuts down and I can't logically follow my thoughts to the end. I know I have a point but I can't explain why.

So when she really gets to me I just fume silently and let hubby deal with her. She thinks I'm weak because of it, she's called me a tool and hubby's clone before because he argues my arguments for me. None of that matters because obviously she's wrong, but it still would be nice to be able to debate well and show her how much of an a** she makes of herself.

.....yes, i wish i could debate well, even on the most basic level. nothing is more frustrating than knowing fully how you feel and your brain just fogging up on you....i too, find that my husband will do the arguing for me...he is protective and he knows i can't.....but its still something i wish i could master somehow....

I always prided myself on the ability to see both sides and argue either side well.

Then found as I got older and felt less able to control 'life's issues/my environment' that I fell apart when the issue was important to me.

Not sure if that makes sense-- in a nutshell I can debate and argue as long as I'm not personally involved emotionally.

I'm so full of self doubt that it's hard to follow through with a convincing defense when it's something I'm personally struggling with. It's pathetic. On the other hand I can be a viciously decisive debator when I'm in a self defensive mood. My brain sometimes fails but rarely. Usually it's a matter of self esteem whether I'm being overly apologetic or arrogant, that is the root of the irregularity.

I, too, struggle with effectively expressing myself under pressure. If my emotions don't get the best of me (look out...she bites), the arguments just tumble 'round and 'round in my head. There are good arguments there, but before I can find the words to express one, a new one shows up. Talk about looking stupid. At some point I just give up in frustration and then it takes days to recover my peace of mind, because I end up finishing the argument x-million times in my head.

In relation to this I have the problem of seeing problems from all sides. Makes it hard to defend a position when the position is always changing. Distracts from credibility, too. People end up thinking I'm sitting on the fence and am afraid to take a stand. It's not that, though, it's that I see many reasonable "stands" and end up feeling insecure. Don't know which stand to pick??

Yes, I can debate an issue and see both sides equally; most of the time. I can also do this debating quite emotionlessly, which can sound arrogant, but isn't.

The only thing that really gets at me is someone who name-calls, makes personal attacks, and uses straw man tactics. Grrrrrrrrr!!!

I can argue well, unless its an emotionally loaded or negative argument. I wonder if its related to what Dr Amen talks about....

adults with Attention Deficit Disorder had prefrontal cortical deactivation in response to an intellectual challenge, rather than increased prefrontal cortical activity that was seen in normal "control" adults. Lubar, who has performed spectral analysis of QEEGs in children and adolescent patients with ADHD, found that when these patients performed a concentration task, such as reading or copying figures, there was an increase in frontal lobe theta activity (slow brain wave activity) rather than the expected decrease in frontal lobe slow wave activity that is found in normal controls (Lubar 1991). Both of these findings are consistent with prefrontal lobe deactivation in response to an intellectual stress in children, adolescents and adults with ADHD. The more these people try to concentrate, it appears, the worse thinking and concentrating becomes for them.

Oh yes......... and I hate it so very badly..........I can always find the words after it's all over and then it's too late :mad:

I do the same as both of you. The more emotional and negiative the worse I do. I also usually have a point where I get frustrated and before I know it I yell and say a couple of mean or accusatory things. Then I back down and usually can think clearer.

I used to have alot of problems getting my point across when I've been in disagreements. Since I've been taking my Strattera my mind has been amazingly clear and now it I can easily vocalize my thoughts.

I'm struggling on a daily basis lately trying to get anything across, in norm conversation and the disagreements. It seems as if everything comes out wrong and that just fustrates me even more. So I just walk away and then go back and try again, sometimes it works, sometimes it don't...any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

I argue so much and so passionately, people often say things to make me start arguing just so they can get kicks out of seeing me get all worked up. I don't even realize they are doing it until i have made a complete fool of myself... even though I was right all along. People also call me a know-it-all because I have such a random general knowledge. I can't help it... I remember random stuff... I think it also comes from my 5 hour long spurts of getting lost in the endless links of wikipedia :-)

I'm struggling on a daily basis lately trying to get anything across, in norm conversation and the disagreements. It seems as if everything comes out wrong and that just fustrates me even more. So I just walk away and then go back and try again, sometimes it works, sometimes it don't...any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Exactly like that for me! Very frustrating with a supervisor who asks, "So what's the question?" And that's not even an arguement! Just trying to explain a situation and ask for advice.

My husband loves argueing and he's very stubborn. Doesn't give up. And he thinks he's always right. I can't tell him why he's wrong because I can't form the words! Very frustrating.

I just lost my train of thought because my kids are bugging me and keep at it. If I remember what else I was gonna say, I'll let you know later.....

I have listened to recorded conversations of fights between my boyfriend and I. I don't argue well. Sometimes I'm like the kid who studders and says, You know what? You know what? Well your a big poopoo head! (adult version)

I don't know that this is solely an ADD trait. I've seen a lot of seasoned NT trial lawyers who can't argue well when it gets personal. They do the same sorts of name-calling, etc. It's not very effective. But they do it because they're not comfortable with interpersonal conflict (idea conflict is different from interpersonal, though some people are unable to divorce the two).

Although I have had times where I've frozen up a little in arguments, I guess that I "benefited" from having a conflict-seeking ADD parent (my mother), and I'm relatively comfortable with conflict, so it takes a lot to ruffle my feathers in a fight. When I blow, though, it's an all out string of four-letter words, slamming things, punching walls, kicking walls, breaking things, etc.

One thing that I do in interpersonal arguments is engage myself with something else (dishes, whatever) whenever I need a "break" to think. I also shut down a little and just let there be a void in the discussion (hard for some of us to do) when I need to think, and then for whatever reason, I usually think pretty clearly under those circumstances. But there are a couple of things that help a lot, it seems to me.

The first is to have an "agenda" for the fight, if you will, and to stick to it. In other words, if it's about the fact that he didn't actually fix the shower caulk like he said he would four weeks ago, stick to that... Don't, for example, bring up the.... uh.... unfinished 1972 Triumph TR6 that he's been "rebuilding" for, oh.... I dunno, :rolleyes: 20 years or so, and for which there are parts strewn all over the garage, the basement, his office, ... etc. Stick to the one thing because straying makes it a fight about HIM, not what he did...

And then the other thing is not to pull out the big guns. The fight over the caulk is not the time to tell him that you hate his mother. :o (Learned that one the hard way, I'm afraid, though thankfully before I got married.)

Finally, if he pulls out a big gun on you, you have to flag it, and then either drop it (if you can) or disengage the argument completely, because that's just an effort to get you to escalate, and you want to stick to your "agenda."

Gee, I guess I learned more from my mom than I knew... 'Course it's not like she set about to teach me these things, unfortunately. :(

My ADD'er is terrible at arguing. When she gets heated up, she'll start arguing semantics, yelling, personally attacking me as well as bringing up anything else that I've done to pee her off within the last 6 months.

Shoot, Driver.... just the last 6 months? You're gettin' off easy there, dude. :D

If you were married to my mother (and thank the lucky stars that you are not), literally everything from the beginning of TIME would be considered fair game... :rolleyes:

I just walk away... :mad:

Shoot, Driver.... just the last 6 months? You're gettin' off easy there, dude. :D

Her poor memory is a blessing at times. :cool:

Her poor memory is a blessing at times. :cool:Yeh, I've been praised for not holding grudges . . . if they only knew! :rolleyes:

I was wondering if anyone else had this problem, or maybe even the opposite of this problem and if anyone thinks this is relevant to their ADD. I cannot argue a point effectively.
Yep, have immense trouble arguing verbally. However, when time is on my side, (ie using forums, etc), I don't have an issue...... well sometimes I do - in that I can type without thinking. LOL.

However, I've learnt over the years to try to be consecutive in my arguments and not all over the place. I still have the 'shutting down' issue to combat... but a bit better.... :o

My son, however, is all over the place. He starts argues something along these lines:
Wife: You need to do your homework before you go on the computer.
Son: But, yesterday you said I could go on.
Wife: That was because you did yesterday's homework.
Son: No I didn't!
Wife: Yes. You did.
Son: I didn't have any homework.
Wife: Yes. You sat down and did it. I had to tell you 50 times, but you did it.
Son: Right, so I can go on today.
Wife: No. You need to do your homework for today.
Ad nauseum......

There's worse, next he's arguing I'll record it. He manages to twist things around to the point he's arguing about something completely different.

as well as bringing up anything else that I've done to pee her off within the last 6 months.
That's just a woman thing - they remember the worst things for years.
Fortunately, my better half forgets everything, (and I'M the ADDer in the family!)

Have you heard of the Triune Brain?

It is the idea that we have three levels of brain.

Anyway, the midbrain (the emotional brain) has the power, when overactivated (fear, anger, sadness) to shutdown the topbrain -- where cognitive ability (thinking power; reasoning; abstract thought; attention; learning), resides.

I have listened to recorded conversations of fights between my boyfriend and I. I don't argue well. Sometimes I'm like the kid who studders and says, You know what? You know what? Well your a big poopoo head! (adult version)

You just cracked me up. LOL. Just the other day a guy at work said that someone (we work on the phones...and not phone sex. LOL) called him a "poopoo head". Not the adult version though. An actual poopoo head. You just reminded me of that.

I argue very effectively. Most people get frustrated and give up in anger. It is a trait I've been trying to curb.

My husband and I argue different anyway. Supposedly I take things the wrong way. I tell him it's the tone of his voice. He doesn't listen. If he'd laugh or smile sometimes when he says some of the stuff he says, I wouldn't take it so serious! But when he is serious, he's more in-your-face and I'm more of a wimp. I start bawling and getting depressed. Throw myself on the bed. Then, ALL HE HAS TO DO (he doesn't believe me though) is calm down, come in the room and, even if he doesn't apologize, help me feel better. I forgive a lot easier than he does. But he'd rather drag out the fight by ignoring me because I stomped off! His anger is good in some ways. If I have to argue over the phone with someone (I can't think of any example right now. I keep thinking Bill Collector. We'll go with that even though I personally never dealt with one) like a bill collector, if I have an idea what's going on (don't ask me about our stock stuff though. No clue!), I'll talk first. I'm more patient and nice. BUT if I can't seem to get through to them, well, they asked for it! Bring on my husband! Then I leave the room because I don't wanna hear it! I'm not trying to paint him to be a bad mean person. He's just a yeller. Sorry about that one sentence you were trying to read. Kept breaking it up with parenthesis. :-)

Triune brain.... Mmmmmmm interesting....

http://www.ezls.fb12.uni-siegen.de/mkroedel/paul_maclean.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triune_brain

I haven't a clue if I argue well or not - I do like an intellectual challenge it doesn't really matter if it is in real time or async - In verbal debates it is perfectly acceptable to pause for a moment and think Too many people get all nervous about haveing to pause while speaking - it normally ends up being the freaking that kills them not the pause to think

I like to debate when I know the other person isn't going to actually get mad - passionate is okay some times it is needed to be persuasive but I prefer the nice neat lines where when that discussion is over so are the feeling that go with it - that is why I can really disagree in one thread and agree with the same person five minutes later i the next - I don't dislike people because I disagree with them - some times I think people get those confused also - it took Gary a while to learn disagreeing and disliking are two separate things. . .I am like Sandy I am comfortable with conflict - it doesn't bother me . . .. it is part of life.


He has a cousin I love to do religious debates with because we are evenly matched in that area makes it that much more interesting - I like people who can present a good challenge and really make me stop and consider my own point of view - I mean that is the only reason I debate to challenge my own perspective - well except anti-medication/ hidden agenda people them I intend to shoot holes in their arguments but I still like a decent opposition - I call it brain food stimuli to the max I don't need medications to focus if the opposition and topic are good. . .

I have the same problem. I can debate, and discuss with no problem, as someone said earlier in this thread, "A lifetime of curiosity has given me a wealth of knowledge", but when the heat is on, and it becomes an argument, all bets are off. 20 minutes after the argument is over I finally think of all the things I should have said. When I'm taking my Adderall, the only benefit I get in this area, is that I can keep my mouth shut long enough to keep from saying something unnecessarily hurtful. It does not seem to help me "think on the fly" so that I can defend my self better.

I am pretty adept at arguing, but i agree with what most people on here seem to say; once i get over excited i lose focus of what i was arguing about in the first place and become over emotional. Which can be pretty inconvinient.. lol

For me, I would say it depends on the subject. If it is one I am knowledgeable I normally can hold my own and get my point across. I love a good political debate (yes I know that is off limits here);) and really don't like to get into religious arguments, even though I have my ideas. If its a case of a procedure or a more efficient way to do something I normally blow people out of the water at work.

I would have made a good trial attorney my wife says, since I love to argue. I can normally hold my cool now, provided the opposition does not get personal or in my face. I am kind of like Sandy as now it rakes a lot to get me really mad. But when I do, it gets ugly fast. We still have a hole in the wall at work from when someone pushed my button.

I can argue well in theory. When I'm well versed on something, or if I have the time to look into the topic and respond thoughtfully, I can make very strong points. The problem seems to be in the delivery, or the sensitivity of the other party (sometimes both). People who become faced with an inarguable point and yell uncle without accepting, or even pondering the facts, content to go on feeling otherwise, drive me nuts.

I'm all for people having different opinions. It's the lack of thought behind opinions I just can't understand. I need to stay away from those situations.

20 minutes after the argument is over I finally think of all the things I should have said.
Yep all the time, and not just with arguments either.

I just thought after reading these post that I argue really well when it comes to any animal welfare topic. When I used to talk to people about getting there animals altered, others were amazed that I could do this without loosing it. Where we were located was in one of the worst areas for this, and many of the people had beliefs that were based on just ignorance. I had an agenda though, I knew that if I screwed up in talking to them and showed any disrespect I would never get the message across and would be deemed as one of those animal rights nutts. I dont do this anymore, as I really cant handle it mentally at this time. I basically avoid situations that I would fill compelled to speak out in. I know I would do more harm.

I usually start off argueing okay but it degenerates into screaming insults pretty quickly! Sometimes I think I should write down my arguement and present it to the other person in essay format after I've had some time to think about it XD

I'm crap at arguing :) I can't see the point.
One person has one point of view
Another person has another point of view.

They both believe they are right..

No arguing usually changes that, so why bother :)

Haha, I think changing the other person's point of view of what makes a good arguer.

I can't argue.....but I can debate. With debate, you already know the parameters. (I think so-in-so is the better candidiate for President b/c of "x" ... not the other person because of "y") It's a point-counterpoint thing. When facts are invovled, yeah. With arguing, you get emotions involved and personal feelings and opinions. I shut down and can't keep a straight thought in my head. Sucks, especially later on when you've got your thought rationally laid out!

I was wondering if anyone else had this problem, or maybe even the opposite of this problem and if anyone thinks this is relevant to their ADD. I cannot argue a point effectively. What usually happens is that when I disagree with someone or even get a little angry, its like my brain shuts down and I cannot access coherent, intelligent thoughts and consequently come off looking like an idiot. It happens all the time and its like one little part of my brain (anger, disagreement, hurt, intimidation) gets fully engaged and then the Reasoning part of my brain just shuts down. Does anyone else have this going on?This is exactly what happens with me. Even if I'm right about my point and have lots of information/facts to back it up,if I get the least bit emotional about it I can't coherently form an argument that even I would by. It can be very frustrating.

I'm sure it's an ADD thing. Stress generally turns my brain into mush anyway. Probably not enough glucose getting to the frontal lobes to arrange a coherent argument. Perhaps the stress vents the glucose to muscles for fight/flight response. Example: I went to the motor vehicles to get my husband's tag. Once I got to the front of the long line, it turned out there was one more form to fill out. I looked at all the people behind me and my mind went blank. She wanted me to fill it out there, but I couldn't transfer a few numbers from one paper to the other (this despite the fact that I graduated with a 4.0 in my master's program). I finally told her I was ADD and asked for help. Maybe it's just the inability to push away the distractions (emotional or environmental) long enough to think in an organized fashion.

I find that I do a much better job of writing my argument than speaking it. Maybe I have more time to think or maybe I can just look back at what I've written and keep things more coherent. Maybe writing just calms my brain and brings the two halves together in working on something.

Here's me in various argumentative scenarios:

(argument w/sister in law and mother in law... yeah I know.. doomed from the start): their arguments were so clearly absurd and childish I was literally brought to tears from my own rage and anger at their stupidity. I could not, for anything, form coherent thoughts and/or sentences. For example, my SIL argued that I was wrong for giving my MIL a store bought card for her birthday, which CLEARLY showed "no thought at all", when what I should have done was make one by hand, and include the kids in the festivities. Oh how I wish I were exaggerating. That is one fun filled afternoon I'll never forget.

(argument with someone that has absolutely no clue whatsoever what they're talking about): to get a better idea of just how clueless this person is I ask questions... typically two questions makes them angry (perhaps they've realized they have absolutely no clue whatsoever what they're talking about..) and they in turn become defensive and insult me. I'm left feeling angry and furious at they're stupidity, and my own for trying to pursue the topic with them in the first place.

(argument with family members, various levels of intelligence): I'm typically left feeling angry because I cannot manage to effectively express my thoughts in the heat of the moment because while I'm trying to defend my position, I'm also trying to word things so as to not further elevate the heat with insults. Usually I'm the one insulted. *shrugs*

Basically I think arguing with people who are just happy to be arguing is more frustrating than trying to pick up a penny with gloves on.

Mmmm,no not really. My parents said I needed to be a lawyer because I argue so logically and find the loopholes in the other persons arguement that no one would have seen otherwise...
but that is ADHD which i'm starting to believe (based on reading posts) is a WHOLE different condition than ADD...

I can see my side and often times the other parties view of an argument for a few divine seconds before I get my attention diverted by a small part of the picture and I have sooooo much troublealigning my thought process to what the other person is expecting. It drives me bonkers!

When I argue my brain just fills and then the wrong things fall out, or I can't get the words to make sense.....it's hard to describe. My brain to mouth co-ordination just dies. But it does that not just when arguing...

biker, 1civdiv, struglin, it seems we are all in the same boat...hossergirl i do know, i find my self saying thing i don't mean, and i don't know why in arguments..i think it might come from emotional stress, and its just a reaction. its very frustraiting

i can debate and prove my point.. but i tend to get too close to the arguemetn and take it personally.

I can't argue.....but I can debate. With debate, you already know the parameters. (I think so-in-so is the better candidiate for President b/c of "x" ... not the other person because of "y") It's a point-counterpoint thing. When facts are invovled, yeah. With arguing, you get emotions involved and personal feelings and opinions. I shut down and can't keep a straight thought in my head. Sucks, especially later on when you've got your thought rationally laid out!

That's me to a T. My brain shuts down if emotions are involved -- I can't even speak if someone's attacking me. But I don't think I've ever lost a debate on any sort of issue.

I can argue very well, but I lose patience when people (usually through their own gross incompetence) cannot see my viewpoints the way I do.

Their loss, I can't help being so smart and such a slick talker.

:)

Absolutely can not argue effectively. And if I get upset, I just shut down and go into caveman mode. I do; however, think that I can look at issues on both sides.