View Full Version : Why this body? Genetics and Spirituality.


Kunga Dorji
11-05-11, 08:48 PM
In my understanding the objective truth of any idea is less important than the results obtained by acting on that idea. That is not an original idea- the oldest good formulation of it that I am aware of is found in the Kalamma Sutta
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalama_Sutta


I have largely personally been less interested in the genetic side of the causation of ADHD- simply because as and ADDer- I have them and I have to live with the genetically encoded parts of my temperament whether I like it or not.

In fact according to my spirituality- from the point in between incarnations I CHOSE my incarnation and my parents according to my intuitive understanding that this was the best body/mind/family for me to grow in consciousness!

Now from our perceptive as unenlightened people living in the world of appearances - this is quite frankly unprovable- and it will take us years/lifetimes to develop the tools to test it.

I am not posting this here to get entangled in a debate about scientific proof- but more to float a couple of concepts.

One is the importance of distinguishing between the "objective" truth of an idea and the real life effects of acting as though one believed in that idea.

The deeper concept of whether there IS actually an objective truth is much too complex to cover here- but my new sig quote from a well known quantum physicist does summarise my provisional understanding quite nicely.

The second group of idea revolves around how this idea "plays out" in our thinking.

The danger of the genetic model is feeling " So I got dealt a bad hand in life". That can be depressing and dispiriting.

The other danger of the genetic idea is that it can devolve in the idea that we are just biological automata with no free will and no capacity to make decisions that can help us.

The danger of the traditional idea of karma as it is often clumsily expressed in many eastern circles is "oh I am just getting the punishment I deserved for something I did in a past life". Again that is depressing and demoralising.

The danger of any idea of free will is that for many of us it exposes us to the idea of total responsibility for all of our ADHD bad behaviours.
However that can be tempered with the argument that due to the limitation of consciousness caused by our unrecognised and untreated ADHD- our capacity to manifest free will was tempered by an inadequate awareness of the choices open to us.

However if we dare break away from the mind conditioning of the "accepted scientific truth" and pose the hypothesis that we chose this incarnation for the specific advantages it offers- then we have an interesting challenge on our hands.

What does it mean to embrace our identity and to understand that we have almost infinite potential- right here and now, despite the obvious downsides?

I will clarify here that in the context of us having ADHD and knowing perfectly well that if it is out of control it causes trouble and harm to both ourselves and those around us, then choosing to medicate it with stimulants is perfectly legitimate and appropriate thing to do even from that spiritual point of view.

RedHairedWitch
11-05-11, 09:53 PM
I'm a big fan of reincarnation. Not so much that we have a choice, but that we get to experince many different types of lives. For better or for worse. All in all, damn am I glad I was born ADHD in Canada and not Cerebral Palsy in India.

Kunga Dorji
11-05-11, 10:40 PM
I'm a big fan of reincarnation. Not so much that we have a choice, but that we get to experince many different types of lives. For better or for worse. All in all, damn am I glad I was born ADHD in Canada and not Cerebral Palsy in India.


The theory of this is truly fascinating.
THe theory is covered in "The Tibetan Book of the Dead"- but it is supported by some now very clear and documented accounts of the reincarnation of some of the more advanced Tibetan lamas. The documentation of "Tukdam"- is improving.

Google the word- i am sure you will find it interesting.

pechemignonne
11-06-11, 12:06 AM
I thought we weren't supposed to discuss religion on these forums...

Kunga Dorji
11-06-11, 12:15 AM
I thought we weren't supposed to discuss religion on these forums...



This is a difficult distinction and a reasonable question to raise to discuss- however the question of reincarnation is one that crosses many religious boundaries and is believed in even by many people without religious background.

However - most of the knowledge of eastern societies is tied up in relation to religious organisations.

IE All of acupuncture, and yoga arises directly from eastern philosophy and non of that material can be used properly without understanding the background that it comes from.

The reference I included to the Kalamma Sutta is probably stretching it a little- however it is the oldest reference I am aware of to this philosophical idea of judging the merits of an idea by reference to the projected outcome of behaving as though one assumes it is true.

If you like we could get the moderators to excise that sentence
The Tibetan Book of the Dead is reported to be experiential reporting- not that we are likely to be able to verify it anytime soon.

However- in terms of discussion of the idea of reincarnation it is interesting to get a few reference points.

pechemignonne
11-06-11, 12:23 AM
I fully agree that it is difficult to discuss any non-Western forms of knowledge without having some aspect of religious thought included.

I am a person who is very interested in religion, it was the subject of my undergrad degree. I would rather be able to discuss those issues, personally.

Kunga Dorji
11-06-11, 12:36 AM
I fully agree that it is difficult to discuss any non-Western forms of knowledge without having some aspect of religious thought included.

I am a person who is very interested in religion, it was the subject of my undergrad degree. I would rather be able to discuss those issues, personally.

It is a bigger problem than that- almost any discussion of social organisation implicitly involves politics.

Have you looked at the material about "visuo-spatial thinking"? There is a good deal of material linking this with "giftedness" and also with ADHD.

I certainly understand this very well- and there is good evidence that ADDers score more highly on visuo- spatial and kinesthetic learning styles than the average population.

The trouble is that to a real visuo-spatial thinker - EVERYTHING is connected: from politics and religion to molecular biology. Those connections are multiple and deeply intertwined.

If we allow ourselves to have "no go" zones that self censorship creates whole classes of thought we cannot consider. That always has been the major criticism of censorship.

So how do we weave our way through that network of ideas without unnecessarily offending anyone?

pechemignonne
11-06-11, 01:03 AM
I think the term "censorship" goes too far in this instance. It isn't censorship to have guidelines on a forum. The internet is a big place, and we are always free to go elsewhere if we want to discuss something that goes against the guidelines here.

I believe that everything is connected, but I also believe that it is possible to have certain rules for certain places, and to follow those rules within that space. I don't think that "silences" anyone.

Kunga Dorji
11-06-11, 01:11 AM
I think the term "censorship" goes too far in this instance. It isn't censorship to have guidelines on a forum. The internet is a big place, and we are always free to go elsewhere if we want to discuss something that goes against the guidelines here.

I believe that everything is connected, but I also believe that it is possible to have certain rules for certain places, and to follow those rules within that space. I don't think that "silences" anyone.

I meant "censorship" in a broader sense than the state based sense.

A good example of how this works in real life
Bruce Lipton relates trying to get a paper of his published in a mainstream science magazine and was told he had to edit out the word consciousness- as it was not an acceptable word to use in a scientific magazine!!!

What the ----?
That is too weird.

However that is how pernicious the whole idea of censorship can be.

In general I think that guidelines may be interpreted liberally or tightly- depending on one's philosophy. If my interpretation is too loose then the forum owners have the power to modify as they see fit. However I am not going to jump the gun by applying an interpretation that might just be a figment of my imagination.

( You will probably guess at this point that though I did well at school there were times when my teachers did comment unfavourably on my disobedient attitude. If anything I have only got worse as I age.)

RedHairedWitch
11-06-11, 01:12 AM
I thought we weren't supposed to discuss religion on these forums...


This is the meditation and spirituality section.

The folks in charge usually let us discuss metaphysical and spiritual subjects, so long as they pertain to our experince of having/being ADHD and other disorders etc

And so long as we aren't preaching or picking on each other etc


...

I like to hold both the view that there is fate/destiny/Wyrd and that some things are totally random in this big old 'verse.

Since it pleases me to do so, and since this concept appears in many spiritual traditions and mythologies, I choose to pursue a belief of a reincarnating soul on a quest for knowledge and experince. This includes crappy lives (like having a neurological disorder in a 1st world ocuntry) or a truly ****ty life (like being a kid dying of AIDS in Africa or something)

I like this as it gives me a certain amount of hope that all is not for naught.

***

Since I'm not an academic, I really couldn't care less about references and bibliography.

Kunga Dorji
11-06-11, 02:01 AM
This is the meditation and spirituality section.

The folks in charge usually let us discuss metaphysical and spiritual subjects, so long as they pertain to our experince of having/being ADHD and other disorders etc

And so long as we aren't preaching or picking on each other etc


...

I like to hold both the view that there is fate/destiny/Wyrd and that some things are totally random in this big old 'verse.

Since it pleases me to do so, and since this concept appears in many spiritual traditions and mythologies, I choose to pursue a belief of a reincarnating soul on a quest for knowledge and experince. This includes crappy lives (like having a neurological disorder in a 1st world ocuntry) or a truly ****ty life (like being a kid dying of AIDS in Africa or something)

I like this as it gives me a certain amount of hope that all is not for naught.

***

Since I'm not an academic, I really couldn't care less about references and bibliography.

Nicely said.

Actually references bore me silly ( but they can be handy when supporting an argument).

One of the points I am exploring here is that I adopt this view of reincarnation not just because it pleases me ( and it does please me the idea does have real charm ) but because if I act in accordance with it my life gets better- and the way people act towards me when I hold mindfully to that idea does seem to indicate that they find my behaviour more conducive to their happiness.

(I know I can come across as rather tetchy online but you can't judge this stuff on an internet forum- most of the experience of a person is lost when we rely on verbal communication only. That observation I am sure is just as applicable to every one of us here -not just me)

Your comments about chance remind me of another quote.


I have seen something else under the sun: The race is not to the swift or the battle to the strong, nor does food come to the wise or wealth to the brilliant or favor to the learned; but time and chance happen to them all.
I had to google that to find that I was quoting from Ecclesiastes.
(Punish me now- I like that sort of thing:D).

pechemignonne
11-06-11, 08:14 AM
This is the meditation and spirituality section.
lol :o Didn't see that...

meadd823
11-07-11, 05:47 AM
So far I like what I read about this Kalama Sutta

Kalama Sutta;The Buddha's Charter of Free Inquiry (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wheel008.html)

The instruction of the Kalamas (Kalama Sutta) is justly famous for its encouragement of free inquiry; the spirit of the sutta signifies a teaching that is exempt from fanaticism, bigotry, dogmatism, and intolerance.

The Kalama Sutta, which sets forth the principles that should be followed by a seeker of truth, and which contains a standard things are judged by, belongs to a framework of the Dhamma; the four solaces taught in the sutta point out the extent to which the Buddha permits suspense of judgment in matters beyond normal cognition. The solaces show that the reason for a virtuous life does not necessarily depend on belief in rebirth or retribution, but on mental well-being acquired through the overcoming of greed, hate, and delusion.

~Underlining in quote added by me~

As far as choosing this life - at times I have to wonder wtf was I thinking!

I have problems with balancing - I do not see the world as an all or nothing proposition however I tend to see myself that way - I am beginning to see how this is unhealthy for me because it goes against all that I truly believe and causes me a great deal of frustration

What I truly want to know is what in the biases did I do with the instructions on how to STOP this lop sided self expectation!!! Medicating the ADHD is only part of the answer the rest is supposed to be inside of me but I can't seem to apply knowledge into action over the long term - heck over the coarse of a single day!

ginniebean
11-07-11, 12:51 PM
However - most of the knowledge of eastern societies is tied up in relation to religious organisations.

Most eastern AND western societies are tied up in relation to religious organizations. Religion and spirituality go hand in hand whether it's the west or the east.

The east seems more exotic and so isn't as penalized is the only real difference.



IE All of acupuncture, and yoga arises directly from eastern philosophy and non of that material can be used properly without understanding the background that it comes from.

As are the disciplines regardless of what religion is the source. There is an inextricable tie in even tho many disclaim this generally that's just ignorance talking.


If you like we could get the moderators to excise that sentence
The Tibetan Book of the Dead is reported to be experiential reporting- not that we are likely to be able to verify it anytime soon.

From my understanding the spirituality section is something of a grey area where discussion of religious ideas as they pertain to spirituality and help for ADHD are allowed.

ginniebean
11-07-11, 12:59 PM
There's a down side to the 'you chose to have this incarnation' and that's people who tend to cite this believe things like"

1. Well you chose it which means I have ZERO empathy for you. (breeds more narcisistic lack of empathy)

2. I am no long going to socialize with you because you bring me down with the reality of what you chose puts in front of you. (again provides a means to disassociate from people who struggle because that's just not positive enough and if people aren't positive then you should get rid of them) (maintains class system and contributes to lack of empathy) (putting a positive spin on shunning)

From my perspective, I don't much care about reincarnation, this is the life I am living, it's the only one that matters. Reincarnation is too speculative and we can spend an entire lifetime thinking of 'ifs' and never really dealing with the reality of now.

RedHairedWitch
11-07-11, 02:38 PM
I actually don't think that we (our souls) get to pick our incarnations. That's what Deity is for. After all, would any soul choose a life of suffering, even knowing that it is "for the greater good"?

sarek
11-07-11, 04:35 PM
Even if there really is such a thing as reincarnation, I think its way too simple to say that 'I' have chosen this incarnation with all that it brings.

Maybe "I" have, but before we can say that we would have to arrive at a definition of 'I' that is a whole lot different and i certainly far wider than the one we as physical humans ordinarily use. That concept of 'I' is IMHO way too limited.

Otherwise we run into the kind of problems Ginnie pointed out. As if each one of us has really chosen to suffer from ADHD. That would make the whole concept of a gifter pale by comparison.

My personal conviction is that we all live this life to work out a very specific set of issues that serve to bring us closer to completion as part of the whole. But for each of us as individuals and for each of us as participants in and observers of the lives of other individuals it would be a show of misguided arrogance to believe that we fully understand that purpose.

Kunga Dorji
11-08-11, 01:34 AM
I actually don't think that we (our souls) get to pick our incarnations. That's what Deity is for. After all, would any soul choose a life of suffering, even knowing that it is "for the greater good"?

That of course is as much a matter of perspective of the philosophical background we come from.
The starting assumption of most eastern philosophies is in fact that the awareness within each of us is a local manifestation of a greater deity that has chosen to incarnate physically for the purposes of the expansion of consciousnesses available by so doing.

The idea is actually rather well laid out in "The Celestine Prophecy " series. Much of what purports to be New Age philosophy is in fact a modern recasting of old eastern ideas.

Again - it is not so much a matter of the objective reality of any one idea as it is the concept of what are the possibilities of living life from the assumption that this is the way the world is.

Kunga Dorji
11-08-11, 01:45 AM
Even if there really is such a thing as reincarnation, I think its way too simple to say that 'I' have chosen this incarnation with all that it brings.

Maybe "I" have, but before we can say that we would have to arrive at a definition of 'I' that is a whole lot different and i certainly far wider than the one we as physical humans ordinarily use. That concept of 'I' is IMHO way too limited.

Otherwise we run into the kind of problems Ginnie pointed out. As if each one of us has really chosen to suffer from ADHD. That would make the whole concept of a gifter pale by comparison.

My personal conviction is that we all live this life to work out a very specific set of issues that serve to bring us closer to completion as part of the whole. But for each of us as individuals and for each of us as participants in and observers of the lives of other individuals it would be a show of misguided arrogance to believe that we fully understand that purpose.


I actually think very closely to you. on that last point.

I do not think any of us has chosen to suffer from ADHD- but i would argue that the way of looking at this from the reincarnation perspective would be to suggest that each of us chose our incarnation for the peculiar advantages it offers- but that the advantages come with the risk of ADHD.

This fits very much with my idea that there is no one to one mapping of our genotype onto the phenotype of ADHD.

Remember also that the reincarnation models all suggest that many of the choices made in the between life state might be more of gut reactions rather than reasoned choices. The extension of this idea is the idea that as our level of spiritual maturity increases we become increasingly able to make conscious choices in that situation.

If we dig a little- this idea has been considered and debated over many centuries.

There is actually good evidence that many young children may have partial recollection of past life experiences and I understand that the issues around the reincarnation of Tibetan tulkus have been well supported by evidence and the sort of identification procedures that are done for these individuals. I must pursue this area more systematically.

I can't recall the link just now but I do know that the past life experience stuff has been well documented on at least one website.

However the evidence for this is somewhat beside the point.The main reason I initiated the thread was to comment on a way that I use to alter my relationship to myself and feel more positively about the body and the genes I have got now.

RedHairedWitch
11-08-11, 01:45 AM
I follow the Western Tradition. Gaining inspiration from the Celtic, Greek, Roman and Germanic (etc) cultures and their beliefs in the afterlife and reincarnation.

Kunga Dorji
11-08-11, 01:47 AM
As far as choosing this life - at times I have to wonder wtf was I thinking!



I can understand that!

Actually the lore around reincarnation traditionally includes a degree of forgetfulness of purpose induced by birth trauma.

Kunga Dorji
11-08-11, 01:58 AM
There's a down side to the 'you chose to have this incarnation' and that's people who tend to cite this believe things like"

1. Well you chose it which means I have ZERO empathy for you. (breeds more narcisistic lack of empathy)



Well put- and it gives me the chance to expand on the other parts of this idea that answer it.

We can choose to look at it that way if we wish- but that is not consistent with the wider background theory.

The view that really lies behind this is that
1)each of us is struggling with the limitations of perception that are inherent in being incarnated.
2) That the process of learning to overcome those limitations and awaken to the deeper reality despite the limitations of incarnation is actually one of the key reasons for choosing physical form in the first place.
3) That the conscious spark within every single one of us is inherently perfect (a local manifestation of a non local deity).
4) That just as we recognise our own harmful behaviours as arising from our inattention and disorganisation that we need to recognise the same thing in everyone else.
In fact the view that this leads to is a greater sympathy for other people no matter how superficially obnoxious they/ we are.

ginniebean
11-08-11, 02:14 AM
In fact the view that this leads to is a greater sympathy for other people no matter how superficially obnoxious they/ we are.

In theory it does.. practically.. it doesn't.

Also, beware of the fact that negative people attract other complainers. Because those who live in a world of doom and gloom alienate others, they have no choice but to look for other negative people to associate with. They then feed off one another and get locked in a clique of losers.



Additionally, negative people not only harm themselves; they harm the world. They cease to make a contribution to it. Instead of helping, they spread gloom and misery everywhere. If they insist on infecting others, why not infect them with laughter? If they must carry something contagious, why not carry a smile?



http://www.life-with-confidence.com/how-to-deal-with-negative-people.html

http://zenhabits.net/negative/


None of these random sites are talking about people with mental illness, physical illness, etc.. but then, most of these things are not shared and remain invisible. Given people's penchant for attribution bias the advice, the language used is deplorable.

It doesn't take long to find site after site of 'positive thinking' telling people to 'ditch those who are negative' Or 'don't listen to them' "avoid them" etc...

Most people who read and participate in this sort of thing are far from enlightened and the damage they do is unfortunate but it is widespread.

Kunga Dorji
11-08-11, 04:59 AM
In theory it does.. practically.. it doesn't.




http://www.life-with-confidence.com/how-to-deal-with-negative-people.html

http://zenhabits.net/negative/


None of these random sites are talking about people with mental illness, physical illness, etc.. but then, most of these things are not shared and remain invisible. Given people's penchant for attribution bias the advice, the language used is deplorable.

It doesn't take long to find site after site of 'positive thinking' telling people to 'ditch those who are negative' Or 'don't listen to them' "avoid them" etc...

Most people who read and participate in this sort of thing are far from enlightened and the damage they do is unfortunate but it is widespread.

You know Ginnie- we are not compelled to use any idea that way "most people" them.

Isn't one of the things about ADHD that we keep seeing things our way and not the way "most people" do?

How often do you get into trouble for that?

It happens to me all the time.

I fully concur that there are plenty of idiotic statements out there - however the misuse other people make of ideas has nothing to do with the validity or worth of those ideas.

Kunga Dorji
11-08-11, 05:08 AM
In theory it does.. practically.. it doesn't.




http://www.life-with-confidence.com/how-to-deal-with-negative-people.html

http://zenhabits.net/negative/


None of these random sites are talking about people with mental illness, physical illness, etc.. but then, most of these things are not shared and remain invisible. Given people's penchant for attribution bias the advice, the language used is deplorable.


I think we should look at this statement more closely.
We simply cannot express any useful thought if we edit every statement we make to be sure it cannot be misinterpreted by any person - no matter how wrongheaded.

I will reference one from the Zen Habits link you provided.


Have you ever dealt with negative people before? If you have, you will know that the experience can be quite a downer.
I used to have an ex-colleague who was very negative. In our conversations, she would complain endlessly about her co-workers, her work and her life. She was also very cynical about people in general, often doubting their intentions. Talking to her wasnít a pleasant experience at all.
The first time we had a meeting, I felt very drained. Even though we talked for only 20-30 minutes, I didnít have the mood or energy to do anything after our conversation. It felt as if someone had sucked the life out of me, and it wasnít until 2-3 hours later that the effect wore off.



I simply cannot find anything to disagree with in this observation.


All I ask you to do here is listen to the reaction from your own body when you personally speak to someone who is very negative as described.


(What happens when you read a post (such as this one) that may contradict you may be quite different- as you are not in the presence of the person and not unconsciously mirroring them.)



If it does not bring you down and make you feel flat- you have much stronger personal boundaries than I do.


Now there are people who call these sort of negative people "emotional vampires." That is a very colorful and evocative turn of phrase- but it is quite definitely prejudicial.

ginniebean
11-08-11, 03:46 PM
You know Ginnie- we are not compelled to use any idea that way "most people" them.

Isn't one of the things about ADHD that we keep seeing things our way and not the way "most people" do?

How often do you get into trouble for that?

It happens to me all the time.

I fully concur that there are plenty of idiotic statements out there - however the misuse other people make of ideas has nothing to do with the validity or worth of those ideas.


True we're not, but unless we call this sort of thinking out and expose it then we're complicit. I don't care to be complicit. Do you?

It's not OK to sweep the substantial amount of crap under the carpet by pointing to ideals. Ideals that few have the being to actually implement.

ginniebean
11-08-11, 03:52 PM
I think we should look at this statement more closely.
We simply cannot express any useful thought if we edit every statement we make to be sure it cannot be misinterpreted by any person - no matter how wrongheaded.

I will reference one from the Zen Habits link you provided.




I simply cannot find anything to disagree with in this observation.


All I ask you to do here is listen to the reaction from your own body when you personally speak to someone who is very negative as described.


(What happens when you read a post (such as this one) that may contradict you may be quite different- as you are not in the presence of the person and not unconsciously mirroring them.)



If it does not bring you down and make you feel flat- you have much stronger personal boundaries than I do.


Now there are people who call these sort of negative people "emotional vampires." That is a very colorful and evocative turn of phrase- but it is quite definitely prejudicial.

I work with people who are routinely shunned, they all have a developmental disability and they all have complex mental health needs. These are shunned people and all the hippy dippy positivity people are running around AVOIDING them just like they AVOID and correct any 'negative'.

I am witness to the reactions and the avoidance on a daily if not HOURLY basis. Instead of seeing pain and suffering as something to be avoided we need to start seeing how OUR actions create it. (in others)

That's about as ZEN as you get.

If all you have is ability to shun when faced with disease whether it be emotional or physical, then you have little in the way of ability you have ideals that keep you all warm and cozy with out any means of practical application. Dream merchants abound.. and congratulate each other for being so successful.

BALANCE.. is important.. there's no balance when people are called 'losers' or 'destroyers' that's not a form of enlightenment it's prejudice dressed up and attending a masked ball ostensibly for charity but in actual fact any funds are being embezzled on top of it.

Also, don't actually address the negatives gloss right past them. Don't address the COMMON result of what happens when people build their own positivity air castles just brush it aside by saying "most doesn't count" it does count. Facing the responsibility of the dark side of positivity is really positive.


p.s. the 'you' is a plural

meadd823
11-10-11, 05:01 AM
Does it count that both referenced material were written by the same person, the wording is identical.

Ever flown on a plane - they talk about the air mask that drop if cabin pressure dropped - part of those instructions are "if you are traveling with small children or seated next to some one who needs assistance place your mask on FIRST - before helping the other person

We can not be of service to any one if we can not care for ourselves

Now the article in question - the way I read then is they are Not talking about your sister in a wheel chair, you ausbergers cousin or the mentally retarded kid who lives next door they are talking about emotional vampires - people who for what ever reason are malignant.

There are several suggestions that come before ditching them - If I read correctly getting rid of them completely is a last resort not a first line of defense.

There are those who feed off the harm and damage they do to others, there is no reason to purposefully have these people in my life.


Then there are those people who are not good for me personally, they effect me negatively and if limiting my time with them makes me a horrible person then so be it.


My life is not all love and light, I don;t expect every person in my life to be happy happy joy joy all the time. A co-worker having a bad day or a rough place in her life is NOT going to drain the energy I have - she is not going to be going out of her way to harm me emotionally -but there are people who feel powerful by making other powerless and sorry but these people actually end up avoiding me :scratch: so maybe I am worse who knows but limiting time and energy on emotionally manipulative and toxic people is not the negative side of positive thinking - it is a prudent act of sound personal boundaries

Kunga Dorji
11-10-11, 08:50 AM
I work with people who are routinely shunned, they all have a developmental disability and they all have complex mental health needs. These are shunned people
[quote]

So do I. We get to see some pretty tragic stories sometimes, and some very pleasing turn arounds.

[quote]
and all the hippy dippy positivity people are running around AVOIDING them just like they AVOID and correct any 'negative'.

These hippy types usually dissociate- "whatever man" "I'm cool with that"- and totally miss the point. That sort of attitude is a conflict avoidance and drives barriers between people.


I am witness to the reactions and the avoidance on a daily if not HOURLY basis. Instead of seeing pain and suffering as something to be avoided we need to start seeing how OUR actions create it. (in others)


The suffering is a bodily reaction- it arises because of the bodily reaction of the individual because of the stress they percieve. Nobody else ever makes us angry - or anxious - they just do or do not things that fit without needs and convenience- the we react or not.


The only person who is responsible for my internal environment is me. Sure - some people will do things that make it easier for me to get stressed- but in the end I hold the keys to my own bodily reaction- whether I am aware of it or not.


If all you have is ability to shun when faced with disease whether it be emotional or physical, then you have little in the way of ability you have ideals that keep you all warm and cozy with out any means of practical application. Dream merchants abound.. and congratulate each other for being so successful.

I do not have that ability nor would I want it.
The ability I have is the ability to temper my reactivity do any help I may offer in these situations is clear and dispassionate.




BALANCE.. is important.. there's no balance when people are called 'losers' or 'destroyers' that's not a form of enlightenment it's prejudice dressed up .....

Once again - agreed.



Also, don't actually address the negatives gloss right past them. Don't address the COMMON result of what happens when people build their own positivity air castles just brush it aside by saying "most doesn't count" it does count. Facing the responsibility of the dark side of positivity is really positive.

I agree one hundred percent.

Skilful positive thinking is about recognising the potential within one despite the current poor results. It is also about thinking "not I am so terrible- because everything I do goes to hell, but " OK- that was a learning experience- current behavior is still not manifesting the full magnificence of the potential within me. what am I going to do to try and better current results?

Accepting our mistakes, apologising for them and resolving to devise a strategty to prevent their recurrence, and having the tenacity to keep doing it- that is positive thinking.

It is well understood that we must become aware of and relaxed about our shadows if we wish to become a force for the good.

Kunga Dorji
11-10-11, 04:48 PM
If all you have is ability to shun when faced with disease whether it be emotional or physical, then you have little in the way of ability you have ideals that keep you all warm and cozy with out any means of practical application.


Management of positive energy occurs on at least 2 levels.

Level 1: those of us who are less robust need to sometimes quarantine ourselves from more turbulent negative people.

The reason for this is simple- I my mood becomes dominated by negativity that has a bad impact on those around me- third party bystanders who had nothing to do with the original person's negativity.

Level 2: Supporting and helping distressed people- can only happen when we are settled enough to be up to the task.


BALANCE.. is important.. there's no balance when people are called 'losers' or 'destroyers' that's not a form of enlightenment it's prejudice dressed up and attending a masked ball ostensibly for charity but in actual fact any funds are being embezzled on top of it.



I didn't see the words "loser" or "destroyers" in the zen habits article. I read it twice- so I do not think that represents my ADD playing up:)
The "life with confidence one" does mention "energy vampires" but though I scanned it I could not find the words "losers" or "destroyers."

I certainly do not think it appropriate to use them.

meadd823
11-11-11, 02:30 AM
It is well understood that we must become aware of and relaxed about our shadows if we wish to become a force for the good.

A "force for good" sounds like a super hero terminology!

Sorry I tend to see things in terms of productive and destructive with neither being universally "good" or "evil" although most associate productive with pleasant feelings and destructive with unpleasant feelings.

Without destruction of the old production of the new is not possible - not to mention that what is new today will be old tomorrow so life itself is a cycle of destruction and production with out any inherent "good" or "evil" to it.

I often get confused by the use of good verse bad. I am correct to apply the word a productive or pleasant in place of the word good?

βĩο₱Ħعℓĩᶏ
11-11-11, 04:15 AM
A "force for good" sounds like a super hero terminology!

Sorry I tend to see things in terms of productive and destructive with neither being universally "good" or "evil" although most associate productive with pleasant feelings and destructive with unpleasant feelings.

Without destruction of the old production of the new is not possible - not to mention that what is new today will be old tomorrow so life itself is a cycle of destruction and production with out any inherent "good" or "evil" to it.

I often get confused by the use of good verse bad. I am correct to apply the word a productive or pleasant in place of the word good?

<img src="http://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20111101.gif">

Kunga Dorji
11-12-11, 09:31 PM
A "force for good" sounds like a super hero terminology!

Sorry I tend to see things in terms of productive and destructive with neither being universally "good" or "evil" although most associate productive with pleasant feelings and destructive with unpleasant feelings.

Without destruction of the old production of the new is not possible - not to mention that what is new today will be old tomorrow so life itself is a cycle of destruction and production with out any inherent "good" or "evil" to it.

I often get confused by the use of good verse bad. I am correct to apply the word a productive or pleasant in place of the word good?

We can all get ourselves into awful knots about words- and yes I do agree that it is possible to sound over-inflated using terms like force for the good.

I struggle a little here- because in my thinking I tend to use very specific terminology like dukkha. Now I know pretty well what this word means and the people I hang out with do as well- but it is a killer to translate it.

Rather than good maybe consider suffering and freedom from suffering.

It is touched on in this piece:
" May all beings have happiness and the causes of happiness.
May they be free from suffering and the causes of suffering.
May they never part from the happiness that knows no suffering.
May they dwell forever in equanimity, free from attachment and aversion to those near and far."

I am gravitating to the habit of starting all my formal meditation sessions with at least a mental recitation of that piece- as a means of "setting my intention".
( when not being actively directed our minds are likely to drift to whatever we have been thinking about a lot- so wilfully spending a great deal of time reflecting on positive and supportive thoughts will inevitably create a default direction for our mental rambling.)

On the level of coarse mind- there are enough subtle contradictions in that one to keep the brain busy for years- but at a deeper level those contradictions are better understood as illusions created by the language we use.

One of the key ideas here is that it is suffering that is important- not your suffering or my suffering.
The background to this can be understood that as we go about our lives - any suffering we encounter is painful to us- whether actually our direct suffering or that of people we meet.
The common response to this is to try and shut other people's suffering out of our lives. We can find all sorts of excuses to do that - "it is their fault" or "they are just lazy or stupid" or "people like that get what they deserve."
Ultimately though the habits of mind created by any variation of that kind of thinking are poisonous to our own personal well being. We can only shut out awareness of the suffering of others by dimming our own awareness.

Kunga Dorji
11-12-11, 09:32 PM
http://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20111101.gif

Nice cartoon- but too big a subject to get into right now (though I am sorely tempted).