View Full Version : Help, Desoxyn cure for ADHD and Depression?


chris44
11-08-11, 08:57 PM
Long story,
For the last few years, about since the start of 6th grade, I have been getting progressively more depressed. Diagnosed with ADHD when I was 6, I was on Concerta and Strattera until the 7th grade, both of which made me even more depressed while I was on them in addition to not helping in school. Up until the 10th grade I was making B's and C's (excluding the last quarter of freshman year where I got extremely lucky in that we pretty much watched movies and had short, easy tests, getting all A's barely), despite always testing into gifted programs, then I started smoking cannabis in the first Semester of 10th grade (I'm not advocating the use of it in any way, I'd like to provide all information that could be considered helpful in solving my problem).

Immediately the most noticeable effect was that it felt like a hand grabbed the back of my head. Everyone I was with just thought I was extremely high. But for the next week I felt different; the back of my head felt more active, and often I'd feel that hand grab the back of my head again, lasting for about an hour. During those hours I felt what I'd call 'picture-vision'; I saw everything in greater detail, like how one better sees details in pictures such as the texture of clothes and the complexion of someone's face, and had clarity of thought as if my mind wasn't an insane cloud of ADHD, allowing me to memorize entire study guides with ease and recall massive amounts of old information I never knew I memorized and couldn't recall otherwise. Even without the hand grabbing my head, I was always happier, far more motivated, could actually concentrate, and performed better in school than ever before.

Unwilling to take any risks, I tipped a friend to buy it and deliver it to my house, though I could have gotten it myself. Being a short, 96-pound man I didn't even need much to get high. I didn't even like being high. Twice a week I would sit for 30 minutes in front of my window procrastinating the unpleasant inhalation of smoke, cleaned up, and went to bed about 40 minutes later. Multiple strains, whatever was available, all had the same hand-effect. I shot up to straight A's with a few A+'s, made 600s on 2/3 of my SOLS with pass advanced on the other (in Virginia at the time), got A's on all my exams except German (B+), became fairly popular after being a quiet social outcast, and found myself regarded as a genius by my peers. I also had loads of free time; school work was being completed ridiculously fast, and my teachers, taking notice,let me do whatever I wanted in class so long as the work was done. Better yet, I was no longer depressed.

It was amazing. I had my suspicions that it was a placebo effect, but after taking a few breaks during which I returned to my normal old self I became convinced it was not. I stared purchasing cannabis in the form of food, wanting to minimize any bodily damage (I only spent about $20 total every 2 months, I wasn't breaking the bank). Never could I imagine myself giving this up and returning to the lonely, depressing hell of my old life. Eventually, I decided to test my parent's approval of cannabis. I told my father I had used it once, not mentioning the improvement in school (I am 100% positive his response would have been to put me back on medicine, or call BS), and his reaction was awful. Insane, thumb up the ***, immune to logic conservatism. Basically it was a don't do it again, and he did not tell my mother or make any attempt to monitor me.

By now it was the third nine weeks of school and I was unwilling to take a huge drop in grades. However, my father has extreme anger-management problems stemming from abuse from his father who was abused by his alcoholic stepfather (this is not your normal angry-dad). Unwilling to get caught and face him, when the Summer-break began I reluctantly decided to give up Cannabis and try to go back on ADHD medicine. After about a month off it, I realized how much my depression, treated by Cannabis, had progressed. I just sat in bed all day on the computer.

In August I began taking my ADHD prescription, which was, ironically, Adderall. I'm easily prescribed medicinal speed but if I so much as touch a joint I'm going to jail. First day taking it, 15mg twice a day, and I'm stunned. It was near as beneficial as Cannabis overall, and gave me odd benefits in hearing and vision. Depression was treated completely, my driving improved substantially, and it carried an increase in endurance I was not particularly fond of. Though, for the first week and a half I had a 1 hour crash around 6.

2 weeks later we moved to North Carolina. And, 2 weeks afterward, school began. For the first week of school I performed amazingly. Then the Adderall's effect weakened, fast. I had the dose increased to 20mg in the morning 15mg in the afternoon, but with no improvement. I was getting enough rest, breaking on the weekends, and dieting properly, but it just became extremely ineffective. After a 5 day break from it, along with a 5mg increase in the afternoon as well, to no improvement at all in effect, I found it's effect would not return to it's former usefulness. Adderall XR 20mg was tried, but it gave me awful headaches. Now all it does is give me a slight concentration boost that still leaves me sitting in class hating myself because no matter how hard I try I cannot keep my mind on the teacher, a boost in mood that is just enough to keep my peers from thinking I am extremely depressed, and still, thankfully, removal of the impulsive behavior that made socializing difficult. I have taken 40mg at once by mistake, but that just made me pee a lot.

Now I'm extremely depressed, lying in bed all day when off the Adderall (the 5 day break brought no reduction in depression at all), and down to B's, barely, in school.

Obviously, I cannot get medical marijuana in North Carolina and even if they do legalize it for medical use, which may happen next year as there is a bill that will be debated and the veteran's association behind it, it will likely only be prescribed for AID's, glaucoma, and other extreme conditions. However, last year a good friend of mine who has ADHD and depression, with the ADHD probably being a bit more extreme than mine, was switched from Adderall, which had little noticeable benefit, to Desoxyn. The increase in mood was obvious. No longer was he quiet and depressed by 2nd period. He was getting work done and seemed normal for once, and it was the only time he ever spoke positively of a medication (he hated them). His parents, however, hate him (his stepfather is not giving him a dime for college, but is giving his younger half-brothers full rides); their idea of medication 'working' was him being quiet and staying in his room all day. So they went to the doctor and asked him to increase the dose, resulting in him being ultra-active and aggressive, beating up his half-brother. He's now back on it in, in a low dose, combination with Adderall, after being put back on Vyvanse.

As a result, I would like to try Desoxyn and hopefully obtain the effectiveness of Cannabis in treating both Depression and ADHD, ironically (medicinal meth is a much safer option than medicinal Cannabis, of course). Tomorrow I go into my doctor's office for depression, and hope to convince her to switch me from Adderall to Desoxyn in an attempt to treat both depression and ADHD in the long term.

My questions are:
-If I'm on 20mg of Adderall twice a day, what dose of Desoxyn should I be on and how frequent should I take it?
-Is tolerance developed as quickly?
-Is there really a substantial increase in mood? Does it increase Serotonin levels more than Adderall?
-Will the doctor even consider it for both?

aeon
11-09-11, 12:55 AM
If I'm on 20mg of Adderall twice a day, what dose of Desoxyn should I be on and how frequent should I take it?

That depends on the individual.

Is tolerance developed as quickly?

That depends on the individual.

Is there really a substantial increase in mood?

That depends on the individual.

Does it increase Serotonin levels more than Adderall?

Typically, no.

Will the doctor even consider it for both?

Likely not, inasmuch as it isnít indicated for treatment of depression, and given what it is, few doctors would be willing to try ó both for reasons of suitability and maintenance of their professional standing.

In general, it is prescribed (for ADHD and narcolepsy) when all other options have been tried without success.

To this end, asking a doctor for it will tend to lead to your being perceived as a drug seeker. Should this occur, you may be denied access to any and all CII medications.

Given that first-line treatments did not work well in your case, a more thorough diagnosis based on a multi-axis examination is in order first ó and certainly before moving to a CII like Desoxyn.


cheers,
Ian

StoicNate
11-09-11, 01:06 AM
Wow, it sure looks like that Adderall is helping you a lot.
Maybe try adding Wellbutrin or some antidepressant to the Adderall instead.

relax21
11-09-11, 01:08 AM
Chris44,
Have you considered Dexedrine or Ritalin? Both drugs were originally marketed as anti-depressants.

medicinal meth is a much safer option than medicinal Cannabis, of course

What makes you conclude that?

If I'm on 20mg of Adderall twice a day, what dose of Desoxyn should I be on and how frequent should I take it?

Take one 5 mg tablet twice a day, initially. Increase in increments of 5 mg until desired response is achieved. Typically, 20 mg - 25 mg daily is the optimal dose. I wouldn't recommend going over 40 mg daily.

Is tolerance developed as quickly?

Yes. Arguably more so than other stimulants due to Desoxyn's potency. But tolerance to amphetamines isn't an issue at low therapeutic doses for most people with ADHD. But if you're developing tolerance to Adderall very quickly, you'll most likely be hitting the tolerance wall with Desoxyn.

Is there really a substantial increase in mood? Does it increase Serotonin levels more than Adderall?

Yes, there are mood lifting effects, but the effects are similar to what you might experience on Adderall or Dexedrine.

And... Yes, methamphetamine triggers serotonin more than other amphetamines do. But as far as the release of dopamine, dextroamphetamine and methamphetamine are pretty much on the same caliber.

Will the doctor even consider it for both?

Dexedrine, Desoxyn, Ritalin, Adderall, etc. are used rarely for treating depression when all other forms of anti-depressants/drug therapies have failed. However, stimulants are used widely for ADHD treatment and considered first line treatment. In short, stimulants can be useful for treating depression and ADHD combined.

Desoxyn is very rarely prescribed to treat ADHD and/or depression because methamphetamine is a highly addictive substance.

chris44
11-15-11, 09:12 PM
Bit more information.

Talked to doctor about depression a few days ago. She seems neutral on Desoxyn; if I only asked for it for ADHD she would prescribe it for me. However, since I told her I have depression as well she decided to try Wellbutrin SR (generic) 300mg a day for both, as Desoxyn is only indicated for treatment resistant depression. She is a pediatric doctor, and forwarded me to a psychiatrist in case the Wellbutrin does not work for both symptoms, as she does not feel safe prescribing Wellbutrin along with any ADHD medicine. I've got a clean record and made straight A's and A+'s last year, barely mostly B's and 2 A's this year, only requested one 5mg increase to the Adderall over the 3.5 month period I've been taking it (the second was unintended, a different doctor filled out my script wrong as 20mg twice a day, and we just stuck with it), come from a somewhat wealthy family in a very nice/safe area, have a mother who also has ADHD and depression that comes in with me, and obviously knowledgeable of the chemistry and side effects of most ADHD drugs (Desoxyn is tough to find information on); she doesn't see me as some kind of drug-seeker.

I've been on Wellbutrin 300mg for 5 days now, taking it in the morning (7am). First day it worked perfectly for depression, and there was a small improvement in concentration. Second and third days it only worked for depression. Fourth day it weakened a bit, I had a few depressive periods, and the depression came back at the end of the day (previously it worked all day); it felt very inconsistent. No benefit in school whatsoever; my mind would focus on every single thing other than the teacher or my assignment, my head was once again a jumbled mess, and I lie in bed depressed hating myself for not being able to get up and do my projects for school and the 6 weeks ends tomorrow (they will all be late grades, I will likely get my first C since 9th grade). Now it is the fifth day, and it barely makes any improvement on depression and it wore off completely around 4pm.

Worst of all the girl I'm attracted to preferred the earlier Adderall me (the last 2 weeks of the period where it was perfect and about 1 month after when I wasn't nearly as depressed). With uncontrolled ADHD I'm impulsive, have difficulty emotionally connecting to others, rather irritating, and don't seem very intelligent. I hate myself even more because as hard as I try I cannot control it; it's like watching me destroy myself.

Other information:
-Age: 17
-Sex: M
-Height: 5 feet 5 inches
-Weight: 96lb (I've always been this thin)
-Daily Caloric intake: probably 3500-4000, mostly healthy sources, and a lot of water (I've had a history of kidney stones years ago).
-Exercise: Only marching band 3 times a week for 2 hours (mellophone, rather heavy for someone of my stature, and an angry band director really works the crap out of you, especially when practicing in the freezing cold for parades nonstop for 2 hours), occasional walks, golf in the spring, and a few pull-up sessions; I'm in alright shape, I'm probably average looking I'd say, very little acne, dress well, but my face isn't that great and I'm short.
-Vitamins: I take 3 of one multivitamin, 1 of another multivitamin, boost vitamin/calorie drinks, fish oil supplements, biotin, about 800mg of magnesium (to compensate for amphetamines depleting it and as a mild NMDA receptor antagonist to reduce tolerance gain), 30mg of zinc, and Cayenne red pepper extract.
-Other drugs: I took 2 Nyquil gel caps on Friday nights, which is 30mg of dextromorphan, as an NMDA receptor antagonist to limit Adderall tolerance gain, along with 1 on Saturday night (15mg)(2 is a safe dose according to the box).
-Medical information: Family history of ADHD and Depression (I have both), ultra-high metabolism (have to use the bathroom every 45 minutes to an hour, Adderall has not increased this), kidney stones from ages 10-12 stemming from dark sodas and again a few weeks ago after drinking dark sodas for the first time in years (4 at once, and luckily the Adderall killed the pain pretty well), a fairly high IQ (in 130s or 140s) as I recall from a 3rd grade IQ test I took as part of a gifted program, from hearing a bit worse than normal, and vision a bit worse than normal (glasses but I can see well enough to drive perfectly fine without them).
-External factors: My grandfather's (the nice British one on my mother's side) rapidly worsening Alzheimer's, my father, and stress in school somewhat worsen my depression.

ADHD Medicines I've been on

Strattera (20-50mg?): Made no improvement in school. Resulted in me becoming zombie-like and depressed.

Concerta (20-50mg?): (time release methylphenidate): Depression. No improvement in school. No appetite either; on weekends when I was off of all medication I ate enormous quantities of food. Felt extremely tired.

Cannabis (about 0.05g smoked 1-2 times a week): It is rarely, slowly becoming more common, used in California and some other medical marijuana states for ADHD, with some doctors speaking highly of it's effectiveness despite no studies having been performed; North Carolina (my state, and also one with some decriminalization) will be debating a bill next year which the Veteran's association is backing. It was a wonder drug; it alleviated almost all my problems.

Vyvanse: Never took it. I got a prescription for it before the Adderall but it was much too expensive ($80, and I'm aware Desoxyn is expensive but it now has a cheaper generic), even with insurance, so we

Adderall XR (20mg)(TEVA generic): Taken about 2 months after I was taking the Adderall XR to attempt to extend the effect for homework, only for 1 week before I got off it. Felt ridiculously strong, much stronger than the 30mg a day Adderall IR I took before it. In band class everyone stared at me because I played extraordinarily well, almost professional-sounding, feeling as though I had an endless air supply, abnormal hyper-focus, and tireless lips; this resulted in a massive headache that lasted all day. I became dehydrated enormously fast, taking 2-3 bathroom breaks during classes, and using it before classes and during lunch. It induced euphoria and I felt like a speed-demon. Ended with massive crash, crushing headache, and inability to concentrate. Very unpleasant. I'd guess that with my enormous metabolism most of the IR is dissolved in stomach acid, but as half the XR is absorbed through the intestines (likely reaching them faster than normal due to my metabolism) the amount absorbed could be higher and the difference in filler and small generic variation from the normal formula might have also played a part.

Adderall IR (30mg, 35mg, 40mg)(BARR then unknown Generics): First 2 weeks perfect, nearly alleviated almost all my problems but ended with a 1 hour crash at 6pm. 4th day was the only day I felt any sort of euphoria or high from it which I'd say is due to the inconsistency of the BARR Generic. Month after perfect but with no crash. Quickly lost effectiveness in most areas except ADHD. Last uses it had mild mood improvements, alleviated ADHD, had mild wakefulness inducing effects, small improvements in sight and hearing, some pain killing effects, and small improvements in physical performance; only lasted until around 4:30 or 5pm. Breaks were taken by my own decision on weekends to limit tolerance; a 5 day break showed no signs of craving or withdrawal.

Wellbutrin SR (300mg once a day)(generic): described above.

So I have been on methylphenidate (Concerta), Strattera, Wellbutrin, and Amphetamines (dextro and racemic via Adderall, with the XR having awful side effects). Practically all the substances used to ADHD besides Clonidine which is used in conjunction with stimulants (I don't have tics, and it doesn't do much for ADHD itself), and Tofranil (very rarely used nowadays). Thusfar only Amphetamines have worked for ADHD.


I type this after lying in bed depressed, feeling complete despair, unable to do any schoolwork. The Wellbutrin wore off around 4pm. I could not deal with this. Tomorrow is the last day of the 6 week grading period and I have a lot of work to do. Unable to discuss my medication with my doctor in such a short time-frame, I took a single 20mg Adderall at 6pm (I'm not directed to take the Adderall with the Wellbutrin). I cannot afford to not do my massive workload, or my father will go ballistic when he sees my grades. My first time 'abusing' my medication, though I don't feel like a meth-addict, like I'm going to explode, or that my grades will suddenly drop to D's (they might have if I didn't).

BR549
11-15-11, 10:08 PM
Talked to doctor about depression a few days ago. She seems neutral on Desoxyn; if I only asked for it for ADHD she would prescribe it for me. However, since I told her I have depression as well she decided to try Wellbutrin SR (generic) 300mg a day for both, as Desoxyn is only indicated for treatment resistant depression. She is a pediatric doctor, and forwarded me to a psychiatrist in case the Wellbutrin does not work for both symptoms, as she does not feel safe prescribing Wellbutrin along with any ADHD medicine..... (Desoxyn is tough to find information on)

Wellbutrin works for some people for depression. It will take a while before you notice significant improvement, work through any side effects and titrate up to a therapeutic dose though. Desoxyn isn't a first line medication for treating ADHD.

I've been on Wellbutrin 300mg for 5 days now, taking it in the morning (7am). First day it worked perfectly for depression, and there was a small improvement in concentration. Second and third days it only worked for depression. Fourth day it weakened a bit, I had a few depressive periods, and the depression came back at the end of the day (previously it worked all day); it felt very inconsistent. No benefit in school whatsoever; my mind would focus on every single thing other than the teacher or my assignment, my head was once again a jumbled mess, and I lie in bed depressed hating myself for not being able to get up and do my projects for school and the 6 weeks ends tomorrow (they will all be late grades, I will likely get my first C since 9th grade). Now it is the fifth day, and it barely makes any improvement on depression and it wore off completely around 4pm.

There are a few Wellbutrin diaries/logs here. You might want to look through them to see what others have gone through with treating their depression. As far as treating ADHD, it my not help.

Worst of all the girl I'm attracted to preferred the earlier Adderall me (the last 2 weeks of the period where it was perfect and about 1 month after when I wasn't nearly as depressed). With uncontrolled ADHD I'm impulsive, have difficulty emotionally connecting to others, rather irritating, and don't seem very intelligent. I hate myself even more because as hard as I try I cannot control it; it's like watching me destroy myself.

This ^ describes many of us here. Thoughts are jumbled, it's hard to put them into words. Being unable to control our thoughts and actions is frustrating. We are irritated and tend to talk negatively to and about ourselves.

The girl? Yeah, that stinks. I won't go on about liking you for you, regardless of medication...blah, blah, blah. Honestly, you don't want to hear any of that. I can tell you are really beating your self up and are frustrated.

Have you considered or tried therapy? Forgive me if you've said this in your first post...I may have missed it... It's not for everyone, but (with the right type of therapy and therapist) it can make a difference in managing symptoms, learning to look at yourself in a positive light and work on managing your depression as well.



ADHD Medicines I've been on

Strattera (20-50mg?): Made no improvement in school. Resulted in me becoming zombie-like and depressed.

Concerta (20-50mg?): (time release methylphenidate): Depression. No improvement in school. No appetite either; on weekends when I was off of all medication I ate enormous quantities of food. Felt extremely tired.

Cannabis (about 0.05g smoked 1-2 times a week): It is rarely, slowly becoming more common, used in California and some other medical marijuana states for ADHD, with some doctors speaking highly of it's effectiveness despite no studies having been performed; North Carolina (my state, and also one with some decriminalization) will be debating a bill next year which the Veteran's association is backing. It was a wonder drug; it alleviated almost all my problems.

Strattera doesn't work for everyone. Same with drugs from the methylphenidate family. Like Relax said, stimulants aren't a first line treatment for depression.

I will, however, caution you with regards to talking about the use of marijuana here on the forums. Even though it may be legal in some states, it's still considered an illegal substance in the US. We do have guidelines regarding encouraging or supporting the illegal or improper use of medication. That goes for improper or illegal use of prescribed medications as well.


Adderall XR (20mg)(TEVA generic): Taken about 2 months after I was taking the Adderall XR to attempt to extend the effect for homework, only for 1 week before I got off it. Felt ridiculously strong, much stronger than the 30mg a day Adderall IR I took before it.

It's different with each individual. Some people feel that IR is much stronger than XR.

I became dehydrated enormously fast, taking 2-3 bathroom breaks during classes, and using it before classes and during lunch. It induced euphoria and I felt like a speed-demon. Ended with massive crash, crushing headache, and inability to concentrate. Very unpleasant. I'd guess that with my enormous metabolism most of the IR is dissolved in stomach acid, but as half the XR is absorbed through the intestines (likely reaching them faster than normal due to my metabolism) the amount absorbed could be higher and the difference in filler and small generic variation from the normal formula might have also played a part.

Could have been that your dose was too high. What did your doc say about the euphoria? Most of the time XR doesn't cause the crashes that IR causes. Again, these medications affect everyone differently. There are, according to many, many people, significant differences in brands of IR. However, Shire manufactures all XR, name brand and generic.

Drinking a LOT of water can help with the headaches. Especially in the beginning. Even if you are thinking you are drinking a lot, you probably aren't. You are doing a lot of physical things. Marching band can be very physical. Especially practicing in the heat. You can get dehydrated fairly quick and not even realize it. Even in cool weather. I did find that I needed to drink at least 3 times (sometimes more) the amount of water daily than I normally did. That has tapered off.

Last uses it had mild mood improvements, alleviated ADHD, had mild wakefulness inducing effects, small improvements in sight and hearing, some pain killing effects, and small improvements in physical performance; only lasted until around 4:30 or 5pm.

It can boost mood slightly. I wouldn't count on it for use as an anti-depressant AND an ADHD medication. It (IR) just doesn't last very long. Most people get between 3-4 hours (or less) from IR. YMMV.


I type this after lying in bed depressed, feeling complete despair, unable to do any schoolwork. The Wellbutrin wore off around 4pm. I could not deal with this. Tomorrow is the last day of the 6 week grading period and I have a lot of work to do. Unable to discuss my medication with my doctor in such a short time-frame, I took a single 20mg Adderall at 6pm (I'm not directed to take the Adderall with the Wellbutrin). I cannot afford to not do my massive workload, or my father will go ballistic when he sees my grades. My first time 'abusing' my medication, though I don't feel like a meth-addict, like I'm going to explode, or that my grades will suddenly drop to D's (they might have if I didn't).

Your pdoc should be available to phone calls. I would strongly discourage you from taking any medication (even prescribed stimulants) without discussing it with your pdoc first. There are major indications for interactions with Wellbutrin and amphetamines. While there are people who take Adderall with Wellbutrin, it's done so with their doctors permission and under their doctors supervision.

I understand your frustration with your inability to control your symptoms. It's going to take a while before you notice any mood changes on the Wellbutrin. As far as it treating your ADHD, it may or may not work for that. Patience is really the key with finding the right medication for ADHD and managing your depression. Unfortunately, patience and ADHD aren't good bedfellows. ;)

Desoxyn, like Relax said, its a last resort treatment for ADHD when all other treatments have failed. Because of it's abuse potential, many docs are hesitant to write a script for it. Especially right off the bat. Also, finding a pharmacy that will order it can sometimes be difficult.

If the Wellbutrin isn't helping your depression, there are a whole host of antidepressants and treatments you can try. If it's not helping your ADHD, you definitely need to contact your pdoc to discuss before you fall into deeper despair.