Remember the thrill of discovering the fact that there was a reason for your behavior, because you had ADD?

Remember the awesome feeling when you were first medicated, how clearly you were thinking, how organized your thoughts were?

I've said this before and I'll say it again. Before I was treated, I had a 1.68 cumulative GPA after my sophomore year of HS.

Going into the summer of my junior year, I was diagnosed with and treated for ADD. I'll never forget the awesome feeling that came with the treatment for my ADD. I was suddenly excited to defeat the challenges that were presented in homework assignments, and I promptly got all A's and a B in my courses the following semester. I could engage in conversation and clearly express my viewpoints -- viewpoints that were firmly established after a lot of applied thinking....

It seems that in the last couple years, my brain hasn't performed at the level it did when I was first diagnosed and treated for ADD.

Is this because our bodies eventually become accustomed to treatment? Is this because "the thrill" eventually wears off and our ambition lessons? Is this because I haven't increased my dosage? I don't know. It frustrates me because I feel that once again, I don't care about key issues. I have opinions about the election, but at work, when any substantial topic arises, I just don't seem to care, I don't want to invest emotional/mental energy to contribute to a conversation. I hate this. Is it me, is it my ADD, is it my medication?

The worst thing is this. I'm totally in love with my girlfriend. She is totally in love with me. She is the first person I've ever dated seriously. I'm the sixth person she's ever dated seriously. She says she's never ever loved anybody the way she loves me.

HOWEVER, we often have awkward eye-contact. It's not her fault, it's mine. It's because of me -- because of my ADD -- because I've been trained to pretend to listen and pretend to comprehend what people are talking about, but it's written all over my face that I really don't care.

I've been trained not to look INTO people's eyes, into their souls, because all too many times, the ADD makes my eyes dart becaues my attention breaks... I see my girlfriend is capable of looking deeper into random people's eyes in the course of random conversation than she's able to look into my eyes. I remember when we first got together, she'd look into my eyes all the time. But over time, I've trained her eyes not to lock into mine.

Anyone else with ADD have this problem? I hate it so much. Anyone else feel like the initial positives that came with medication have pretty much withered away? Is there a solution? Does everybody pretty much return to their normal state of being?

Also, when I'm intimate with my girlfriend, when I'm on top of her, sometimes my body shakes. My hands shake sometimes when I pick up a fork. Is this the meds, or is this me? It totally sucks. I love my girlfriend so much and I wish I could be with her together, but it kills me to think she can't look deep into my eyes in an intimate way because of my ADD.

I'm rambling, I don't know exactly what I'm trying to convey, but I'm hoping somebody's been through this before and can recognize my symptoms and throw out a life-preserver to assist me in improving my personal life.

At the very least, thanks for listening. But if you can relate in any way/shape/form, please hit me up with a quick and easy response.

I see this more often than I'd like. I'll have to post another thread though. I only know this from your girl friends point of view.
I'll be very interested to see what you can find out about this. I have a tough time with it. Good luck with yours.
ian

Thanks for the quick response, itschaotic.

But when you say, "I see this more often than I'd like," what exactly are you referring to?

Im not sure you were "trained not to Look into peoples eyes as we went the other way"

We trained my son and myself to establish and hold eye to eye contact and it works well.

Is this because our bodies eventually become accustomed to treatment? Is this because "the thrill" eventually wears off and our ambition lessons? Is this because I haven't increased my dosage? I don't know. It frustrates me because I feel that once again, I don't care about key issues. I have opinions about the election, but at work, when any substantial topic arises, I just don't seem to care, I don't want to invest emotional/mental energy to contribute to a conversation. I hate this. Is it me, is it my ADD, is it my medication?

Cant say for you but for me "it is that I Really Don't Care" about a lot of these issues. I find a lot of things that people really get involved in to be quite boring, and they are quite bored with my things.

regarding the medication "I noticed that the thrill was gone after a year", and now I only take my meds when I need them instead of every day.

I like being ADD and I prefer solitude from the masses for the privalige of being able to think differently and not having to fit in all the time.


HOWEVER, we often have awkward eye-contact. It's not her fault, it's mine. It's because of me -- because of my ADD -- because I've been trained to pretend to listen and pretend to comprehend what people are talking about, but it's written all over my face that I really don't care.

I've been trained not to look INTO people's eyes, into their souls, because all too many times, the ADD makes my eyes dart becaues my attention breaks... I see my girlfriend is capable of looking deeper into random people's eyes in the course of random conversation than she's able to look into my eyes. I remember when we first got together, she'd look into my eyes all the time. But over time, I've trained her eyes not to lock into mine.

Anyone else with ADD have this problem? I hate it so much. Anyone else feel like the initial positives that came with medication have pretty much withered away? Is there a solution? Does everybody pretty much return to their normal state of being?

The biggest thing I see is that you recognise these issues, and now its up to you to deal with what excites you and what doesn't.

I myself am not going to submit to the masses , just so I fit into a world that I really don't care about. I have my own world and reality and thats where I like to live.

But that is my opinion and what works for me doesn't neasasarily work for someone else.

ADDandMULTIPLY I wrote a whole long piece about it last night and then didn't want to post it. I have a few people in my life that give me that look you describe. I'm having trouble with it and that's what I was referring to.
ian

itschaotic,

I'd be enormously appreciative if you could provide me with your thoughts and opinions on the topic of eye contact. I have a feeling you're onto something.

Gary, thanks for the feedback. FWIW, I was definitely trained to look people in the eye. I can vividly recall my mother instilling the importance of eye contact, and it has, without question, remained engrained in my brain to this day.

When I first meet people, I tend to be great with eye-contact. I sit down with key decision makers in a variety of industries all the time, and I feel that this is one of my strengths. I'm only 26, but when you're sitting face-to-face with some corporate heavyweights, you gotta convey a confident and reputable presence to earn their trust and achieve your goals. And your eyes can go a surprisingly long way in establishing this presence.


And yet, I can't consistently establish this type of eye communication with my GIRLFRIEND and it just eats me up inside and I really need to figure out a way to overcome this horrible problem. I want her to see the very real feeling of love that I have for her when she looks into my eyes. While my eyes are perfectly functional with 20/20 vision, I sometimes feel they're barely more effective than glass eyes in some regards.

http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=103071#post103071

Did you read what I started at the URL above? We are on completely different sides of this. I'm feeling at least as frustrated with my experience as you sound with yours though so maybe we can muddle our way into this and come out with something useful.

< on-ramble >

The eye contact is an interesting subject. I live within a mile of a rural native reserve. When we first bought this place it looked quite remote to us and our city friends thought we'd gone mad.

I spent some time getting to know the elders on the reserve when we first came to live here and I would show up bearing gifts of eggs and goats milk. I didn't know anything about native culture but before long I had learnt that eye contact wasn't popular.

It had the opposite effect to what I was used to. It was an act of aggression I think. I never asked directly about it I just conformed. I've since spent time working with many dogs and horses and know much more about subtle language and and the power of eye contact. I must have been showing signs of progress because "Harry" the eldest on that part of the reserve asked me to attend a sweat lodge one night. By that time my eye contact was well under control. I'd learnt to avert my vision during conversation. That night six reserves were represented and there was a full moon ceremony going on with the women. It was a big deal.

I was hopelessly lost. All my ancestry is Scottish and in my family we make jokes about being a shade more pale than white, blue. There were young men there obviously challenging in their posture and stares.

The whole eye contact thing got thrown out the window that night but not with everyone.

The elders present and some were much younger than I approached me with eye contact when they had something sacred to offer me. I can't think of a better word than sacred. Throughout the evening which lasted from about 9:00 pm until I got home at 4:00 am I was offered information on a need to know basis and always with eye contact.

I grew up in a liberal educated environment and didn't know I carried biases about natives. I had also never met natives like I met that night. I would venture a guess that I've never met a group of men that conveyed more integrity through their eyes than the elders that offered to include me that night. I was deeply moved by the experience and for three days following was at peace with the world and myself.

That reminds me a funny like of John Prine's that goes: "I can't even make friends with myself". That's how most of my days are so those three were a treat.

Ok ok.. you'd think I love the sound of my own voice wouldn't you? eheh I do love to write. It's been years since I've luxuriated in writing. So much is coming back to me. Thank-you forums, thank you Dexedrine, thank you therapist.

If I were charged with treating you for this I'd be jailed for impersonating someone that knows something! You have been warned.. heh

I actually have some deep convictions about this that broaden out before me like a desert. I would want you to believe that it's an issue of the deepest core of your being. I would suggest you look inside yourself for the answers as to your need and incapacity to convey what it is you want to pass along to your girl friend through your eyes. I know of nothing better to get down to brass tacks than zazen. It's not for everyone but I believe the shortest distance between two points is a straight line. Now all the masters can have a field day with that one.. lol

Trying to change behaviour that's been "trained" into us is brutally hard. You speak of eye contact not as a dialogue but as a stance or profile you'd like to project. You may be missing the point altogether. Business is changing.. you might find "The Cluetrain Manifesto" of interest.

You might want to try and keep separate tactics from business and personal life when eye contact or listening skills are involved. Compassion and empathy are worth experiencing. Anonymity is a favourite too. My wife taught me an exercise that hammered home some important lessons in creating bonds with myself and others. For two weeks I had to do something good for someone I cared about. The catch was that they could not know I had done it. If they found out it didn't count. I can't give away what I don't already have, the eyes don't lie.

Yet again I've spilt my heart all over my sleeve. I'm feeling a little over exposed. Join me and crack this puppy wide open.. < g >

Barry Lopez has a little book called "Reflections in the Eye of the Raven" where a man/woman walks out into the desert with nothing and begins to see life differently. It's not a big book but with the pains in your heart telling you that something is wrong, this little gem might help you. It helped me. I can't count the number of copies I've given away.

< off-ramble >

I hope someone can wade through this.
so sad me

Eye contact can be used just as a means of keeping on track with a subject or for control of a subject.

It all depends on how intence you want to be on the subject especilly being that most people have a problem looking into the eye or the soul of another as it makes them quite uncomfortable.

I couldn't teach it or explain it to someone as it is just something I have learned how to do to control my emotions and the other persons as well.......

I've got big eyes & was always very shy so eye contact is a touchy subjuct for me. Using eye contact as a business tool to project confidence and the sense that you aren't hiding anything (honesty) is very strange to me. I can do it & people obviously respond but it always feels weird, more like I'm lying or playing games than being honest. I guess I can maintain normal eye contact in most situations but I'm quite self concious about it & am generally more comfortable to be shifty eyed & evasive. Around my wife, this isn't a problem because she doesn't expect me to perform like in a business meeting & I'm comfortable to just relax & be my shifty self. Some friends & relatives insist on intimate social eye contact and that generally makes me nervous because it really is very personal if I'm going to do it sincerely, that;s just unbearably uncomfortable. Too intimate. I'm not that open a person. I can do it with my wife but only because she doesn't take it too seriously. Hopefully some of that makes sense.

Ok this is a great thread..i have questions and comments...
first of all...who is john prine? forgive my ignorance, it appears that he is a musician? guessing from paulbf's sig line?

anyway
i never noticed the eye thang til my best friend filled me in.. (and by the way itschaotic, your writing is very beat gen.)
we were discussing our adhd..and i said that most ppl don't notice it at first or if they ever do b/c of the way i am so to speak..she said: i've always known you were, you always scan the horizon looking for something
its funny how i can be so introspective and aware about some things, but completely clueless about the obvious
i always tend to look off to the side when talking to ppl or looking at the floor, the ceiling, i even flip through magazine when i'm talking to my mother in law and flip through stuff. i know that it seems rude. but i can't control it. if i stare into someone's eyes it is: 1) rather intense, 2) something that causes a prolonged moment of attention that is not called for in nomral situations which can 3) if you're talking to a man make him think you're hitting on him or what not ..and 4) if you're talking to a woman it makes them think that you're trying to figure them out or being really really attentive. (geez, i wouldn't want to mislead the poor ppl would i? LOL)
unfortunately for me..i have to commute. and my problem is..the eyeglue problem...(thats what i've named it) when i'm in traffic, on an elevator etc..my eyes will unfocus (the traffic bit is when we're in gridlock guys, not at 60mpg ok?) and i'll space out a bit..my mind is active but not engaged with what is in front of my eyes or my body, its like only my mind is turned on...when i snap out of it..i dearly hope that my eyes haven't accidentally wandered into some man's eyes...that is SO UNCOMFORTABLE...i particularly hate it when its a bunch of men in the back of a truck, they really think you're hot for them if you accidentally stray and look into their eyes, and it makes me blush like a fever
and i literally have to call someone on my cell phone to rescue myself from the tension..its seriously anxiety producing..its kind of a silly thing and stupid, but its my reality. my next car will have the darkest grade tint that the law will allow, and my sunglasses are super dark now too..
my husband has informed me that i should at least pretend like i'm interested when he speaks to me.
he intentionally and assertively catches my gaze when my eyes are roaming and attempts to manhandle the whole process
it angers me but i don't mention it
he also double checks on what he's told me (which despite his paranoia i can usually cite verbatim)
i also have to close my eyes when making love..once my ex bf said that i should always open my eyes and drink it all in...but i just couldn't
i have to really concentrate on the feelings or i'm out of my body

Yes John Prine is a musician. Think acoustic country/hippy style.

I was talking to a client yesterday & felt him wanting eye contact when I noticed I was looking at his cheek maybe or something near his face but not in the eye. When I locked eyes, it was like being hypnotized (that intense) & I held it for only long enough to indicate I was not afraid (though I was) then moved back to a more ambiguous gaze where I'm more comfortable. I guess people think I'm being shifty, dishonest or something if I don't look straight in the eye but it's really freaky for me to do so. Maybe some of it has to do with self esteem, like they are staring straight into my heart.

most ppl describe me being high in integrity and very mature (i'm 29..so not that kind of mature! lol)
i have never in my life had an issue w/ ppl thinking i'm shifty or anything near that..i'm certainly not implying that about you
i just find it odd that you automatically think just b/c you don't prefer, or cannot, attend to the 'normal' eye contact scenario that ppl think you're shifty?
of course this is a cliche and oh yes if its a cliche it must be true...
but there are differences aren't there? btwn being akward or self concious, then looking like a guilty liar?

at least i hope so

I do not hold eye contact for any more time than it takes to suffice for the situation. I don't have much emotion around the amount of eye contact I make or don't make. I don't feel insecure when someone avoids eye contact, it's the exchange I'm interested in and that happens on lots of levels besides eye contact.

Paul I find it odd that you make those negative assumptions as well. Are you guilty of some kind of infraction of the rules of engagement? I would tend to doubt it but it's curious none the less that you would label it in such strong terms. Have you been repremanded for not making eye contact?

I heard a speaker and specialist talking about ADHD a couple of years ago. I'll have to look up his name. He suggested a better way to deal with with people like us and him was to let us have our distractions going on. I can so relate to f_wcomboadhd and the magazines and dark cover. I have to manage the amount of stimulation a bit or I get overwhelmed. Intense eye contact is like fireworks for me. I like it but I use it sparingly. It can give me more than I need.

I am so glad I don't have these negative emotions around eye contact. Have you guys been raked over the coals and now are too self conscious about it? Why feel guilty about it is what I don't get, but that's not me standing in your shoes now is it? Doesn't the "shifty" and "evasive" just come with your reticence in "not" making eye contact?

I stay very very busy normally if someone has stopped by and I want to remain focused. I go into high gear, washing dishes or whatever is handy to keep focused. If the conversation is engaging enough to entertain lots of my attention then it's ok for me to be still and have lots of eye contact. When it isn't that interesting to me I struggle to remain in the game and have recently taken to just walking away to the next task or activity that will help me stay on track. It's extremely rude of me but some of these people seem to be even slower on the social cue pick up than me!

If someone is hassling you for more eye contact or being so inconsiderate as to challenge your degree of attention ask them to write it down for you if they want to be sure you get the message. Maybe ask them if their perfect little selves don't have some short comming of their own that you might be able to return the favour with some jabs at their self esteem! Sheeshh.. that makes me hot... let me at him.. :D

Using eye contact for manipulation obviously occurs all around us but I find it dishonest. Preying on the weak or something. People that are vulnerable to it need the same respect we all need. It's just one more social consideration no? I'm getting a little bleak thinking about this. Our world is so aggressive and in the US so incredably violent that I wonder if raising my kids to honour these types of things is a disadvantage for them. Sad to think that it might be.

I have never seen anyone demand eye contact. That's weird. I'd be tempted to offer my socks and demand they put them on and keep them on the whole time we talk.. otherwise sod off!

I'm sure that the guilt or self consciousness you feel when in these situations draws some of the attention you are not looking for. I probably behave in similar ways as far as eye contact but yet draw none of those responses. I feel no shame for my degree of eye contact.

Please feel free to slap me as necessary. My ears and eyes are wide open. I remain willing to learn from you all. Please never take my bold statements as a sign that I'm unwilling to listen or learn. I'm interested in this.

"Conformity -- Proudly serving painfully boring
people since time began."

It's not *that* frightening or horrible to me but I do feel weird making direct eye contact (DEC). I never really thought about it that much. My mom said my eye contact is normal when talking to people & usually I don't notice.

Yes the manipulative thing is nasty. It's pretty commonplace in business relations. I'm perhaps traumatized by my brother and or father's aggression, frankly I don't recall if eye contact was a big part of that, maybe it's even repressed, who knows. I'll think about it. My brother was very very manipulative.

Maybe this is why boring people nag you & leave me alone. I am a master of deflecting attention & not being picked on due to living under the influence of my brother. Maybe I don't make enough eye contact when I'm nervous in a potentially manipulative situation. It's my way of maintaining control and if someone locks eyes with me it's like I've lost & must submit my will to them. How's that for some some freudian theories? Actually could be something that cognitive behavioral stuff could deal with. Maybe I don't have ADHD or not much & I really do need to keep working on that stuff. So can I add Social Anxiety Disorder to my diagnosis now? Ack, these kind of things are so ingrained in us from a young age. Me anyways.

I think you've hit on something. I'm a master of attracting attention. Well although I have the capacity now I don't display the talent like I used to. I'm quite manipulative or again, have the capacity to be.

The one boring person (BP) that I've let lapse and not encouraged into relations is an unknown but the other two are quite similar in some ways. I think it's maybe a competitive thing. Both these characters tend to look down their noses increasingly as I soften and change. Things that make me go hmmmm I'm getting a lot of those these days.

I sure think looking into the father brother connection would likely yield some dividends for you. You are so right about how embedded some of these things are. I take comfort knowing that it's taken some of them 40 or so years to settle into place so I needn't expect to change them over night. I have managed to change some core issues though and therefor know in my heart that it's possible.

Unwilling DEC would indeed signal defeat or submission. People demanding it is creepy. Just thinking about it gets my hackles up. I'm all ready with some smart remark in your defence.. heh silly I know.. your a big boy now.. Irrespective of the joking, I react to this with aggression. What kind of arrogance does it take to demand DEC of someone that's not comfortable with it? I've never heard of that before. Totally creep-ed out.
ian