View Full Version : Wisdom


SB_UK
01-05-12, 05:29 AM
Over the course of my 20,000 posts on-line, I have only found 1 point which needs to be made.

Why and How does a/the individual attain the defined state of wisdom ?

Wisdom carries with it a set of neurological changes which 'deactivate' the addictive propensity (an innate drive for neurochemical reward which damages the individual if allowed to persist)
eg the attraction to sugar, blood sugar elevation, nicotine, alcohol, money, power (physical or mental), sex (the material world desires/attachment to material world).

Why is this post appearing on an ADHD forum ?
Because ADDers (exactly as stated in the opening part to Hartmann's 'Edison gene' are predisposed to wisdom (explained elsewhere - more efficient (smaller - interconnected) structure of brain)).

The term which Hartmann uses is 'old souls nearing enlightenment' which neatly ties into the term enlightenment used in Buddhism.

A defined transition which shifts the pre-Buddha into Buddha.
The image which comes to mind of the Buddha (post-enlightenment, post-resurrection, post-wisdom) is of an individual who is happy just to be.

All that the Buddha has gained - is freedom from material world attachment.

It's not a big deal to understand this idea, I don't think.

It's harder to make the transition, though - the protocol required is mentioned below.

Hard to make the transition, particularly so when the world we live in appears to think highly of people who engage in material world desires (eg sugar, blood sugar elevation, nicotine, alcohol, money, power (physical or mental), sex (the material world desires/attachment to material world).

In our world - it's considered good to give/receive chocolates, it's considered good to give/receive large quantities of food (particularly carb-rich foods), it's considered 'cool' to smoke, you're considered anti-social if you don't drink alcohol, the guy with money is considered successful, people seem to want to bow down and worship the guy with more power (whether physical (eg beauty/bodybuilding prizes) or mental (Nobel prizes)) and the guy who gets the girls is considered more highly.

The individual who wants nothing other than to be in pair-bond and to have the basic minimum of heat and food is considered an absolute failure in this world; which is a particular shame - because that's pretty much the state which we're supposed to be aspiring to.

I'm trying to suggest that we've a society which encourages the very opposite reward system which evolution/God is telling us to pursue, where the ADDer with particular predisposition (because of the interconnected structure of our brain/mind) is *particularly* unable to comply.

We're particularly gifted in attaining freedom from the material world desire - given a small amount of self-directed education / pair-bonding (see thread in private section) and so cannot succeed in a world which worships reward system behaviours which, by virtue of our brain/mind, no longer motivate.

We are required to take medication (motivation in a bottle) to comply.

SB_UK
01-05-12, 05:37 AM
So what is this thread about ?

[1] Why and How does a/the individual attain the defined state of wisdom ?

In 1 simple sentence.

[2] Why become enlightened ?
- Because until enlightenment the individual is drawn to behaviours which will cause the individual/society harm.

[3] How to become enlightened ?
- Education by self-enquiry and Pair-bonding.

So what is this thread about ?

Do the three [1,2,3] sentences above make sense, because I haven't been able to find anybody who will admit to understanding them ?

I'm only after knowing whether the three sentences above can be understood - that is do they make sense ? Do I need to reword them ?

There's some sort of a block which appears to prevent people from admitting to understanding these three sentences - it's very strange.

SB_UK
01-05-12, 05:45 AM
Here's an image (attempting to express this idea without words - to make it easier to understand) which summarises the idea perfectly.

Transition - described in 3 words

need (-oholic) + wisdom -> bliss


Transition - described in pictures

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTTrD4X_BMirD0DaB3NDF-Qe3_TMvTSGBJIe2CPMwjnkHcwPSWxuQ .....+ wisdom-> http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQv9EPdJLmmZt780AEp70n7RaYly-1RGbDC4xQGA7rH0F_AiH9plg

SB_UK
01-05-12, 06:05 AM
So - bliss occurs with wisdom - when the individual overcomes the needs which prior to attaining wisdom, 'floats' the individual's boat
(eg to shop, to own, to have things, to have money, to have property, to have power over others, to eat addicting foods, to smoke, to drink alcohol, to take drugs, to boast ... ... ...)

There's no attempt to describe these behaviours as good or bad (the pre-wisdom behaviours) - they're simply there because there's a 'force' which keeps them in place.

That 'force' doesn't do the individual any good and doesn't do society any good - and it is best for the individual and society if the individual becomes wise as quickly as posible - for individual (society and future generation) wellbeing.

But of course - try telling an alcoholic that they're no longer able to buy alcohol for their own wellbeing and they will react badly.

The transition (to wisdom) needs to occur before the individual is divorced from the need (the material world attachments)
- thereafter they're free to heed rational advice.

The only soluton to alcoholism is to take away the motivation to drink alcohol.

The alcoholic who retains the motivation (love/desire) to drink alcohol will not be able to 'hear' your advice.

The love/desire of alcohol and the love/desire of money have the same neurochemical root - as do all of the material world love/desires (as described above - money/power/sex etc) ... ...

The love/desire part is the root of all evil.

This love/desire is the basis to original sin.

With wisdom the individual overcomes original sin and gains free will
- free will over his/her own actions.

The individual drawn to individual/society damaging material world desire (eg the private dentist who does too much treatment and damages healthy teeth just to make extra money now, and a little further down the line when further damage occurs) without any motivation for the object of their material world desire (in the case of the dentist - money) is free to heed the rational advice of others.

Is free to do what's right for the patient.

Introduce money and the same old problems occur.

See

If love/desire is maintained:
Smeagol + ring -> loss of life to love/desire -> Gollum -> premature death to greed

If love/desire is lost:
need (oholic) + wisdom -> bliss

Gilthranon
01-05-12, 06:05 AM
Didn't you answer your own question in your second message ?

SB_UK
01-05-12, 06:10 AM
Trying to make this idea as easy as possible to help


In less than 1 sentence

Hell -<- maintained -<- material world need/love/desire ->- lost ->- Heaven (wisdom/bliss)

In pictures

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lrs62yV5P71qg2kz4o3_400.jpg-<- maintained -<-http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTTrD4X_BMirD0DaB3NDF-Qe3_TMvTSGBJIe2CPMwjnkHcwPSWxuQ->- lost ->- http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQv9EPdJLmmZt780AEp70n7RaYly-1RGbDC4xQGA7rH0F_AiH9plg

SB_UK
01-05-12, 06:17 AM
Didn't you answer your own question in your second message ?
Do the three [1,2,3] sentences above make sense, because I haven't been able to find anybody who will admit to understanding them ?

But :confused::confused: I absolutely CANNOT answer this question by myself.

I can't find anybody who will admit to understanding the 1 idea which is being expressed in this thread and so I don't know whether the idea has been understood.

I can't know - until somebody says something like I understand the idea - this is how it needs to be reworded to make it understood by people (if it needs to be reworded) and this is what we need to do about it.

This is all there is to the idea:
The individual needs to make the transition to wisdom for the benefit of the individual/society and future generations.
The individual needs to understand why.
The individual needs to understand how.
Afterwards the individual is freed from desire and gains the capacity to think/behave rationally.

SB_UK
01-05-12, 06:38 AM
The problem is, is that this idea doesn't mean anything until somebody else understands it.

I don't know if anybody else understands it until they state that they understand it.

I can't state that they understand it for them.

I can state that I'll re-word it, simplify the idea, or even try to find other pictures etc to help convey the point - but I can't state that another person understands the idea, for them.

So - until that happens and somebody states that they understand the idea - I need to keep on repeating the idea.

However - what's the point in repeating the only important idea which exists if nobody is willing to state that they understand it or if it actually is not blanket understood (which surely is hard to believe) ?

If people are pretending not to understand the idea - then I need to know why - because it makes no sense.
If people don't understand the idea (truly) - then yes - I'll be very surprised - but at least if I know which part of the idea is difficult to understand - I'll be able to reword.

In effect the idea is as simple as

Pre-transition to wisdom
Feed material world desire (money,sex,fame,power) -> leads to -> Only meaningful definition (to man) of Hell
Post-transition to wisdom
Kill material world desire (money,sex,fame,power) -> leads to -> Only meaningful definition (to man) of Heaven

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTqL6AIMNCS_gVbb2VPxxbqL05ebx78V hQke7qvMd6NkivdX0hTeg-<- maintained -<-http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTTrD4X_BMirD0DaB3NDF-Qe3_TMvTSGBJIe2CPMwjnkHcwPSWxuQ->- lost ->- http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQeWzBqRd_b4w92RwrS0m9XrfzILi1Yh 8ZJtJ62Dr8D8cCkDSV1Vw

SB_UK
01-05-12, 06:48 AM
I'm getting so confused now that I'm making glaring errors in my posts.

In post 6 - maintained and lost should be in red and blue (respectively) and not in blue and red.

It's impossible to explain an idea when nobody seems to want to acknowledge that it exists.

What's deeply worrying is that I could find page after page expressing this exact same idea on the Internet - and I'm sure that somebody must be able to understand all of those more complex explanations of the basic idea -
- the basic idea being point [1] in post 2

[1] Why and How does a/the individual attain the defined state of wisdom ?

Noting that why and how are also explained in 1 sentence in points [2,3] in post 2.

-*-

So - I think that people are pretending not to understand points [1,2,3] -
what should I do ?

It's the single most important idea to man; all of humanity's problems can be solved conditional on point [1] being understood
- and nobody is willing to state that they understand the idea - so nothing can be done about unravelling the idea and seeing where it leads.

Incidentally - understanding the idea unravels a course of action.

The reason why I need to keep on plugging away at making this idea understood - is that everything that human beings do is dependent on this idea.

This idea (point [1]) is the starting point for the redefinition of society; no action can be taken until this idea is understood - because it dictates every thought/behaviour/action permissible (downstream).

Simplifying - this idea forms the foundation of a building.
Without the foundation in place, the building (society) can not be erected.
All attempts to erect a building (society) without the foundations (consequences of Point [1]) will fail.

Going mad - never had feelings of such intense paranoia as I'm having currently.

It's such a simple idea - what're people waiting for ?

SB_UK
01-05-12, 07:08 AM
Here's another attempt.

We are programmed with 1 set of instructions (which may harm us) until we escape the programming and adopt another set of instructions (which prevent us from harming ourselves).

We're encoded with an innate set of desires which must be overcome in order for us to be capable of rational thought.

Overcoming the innate desires (primitive desires) (material world desires) occurs through making the transition to wisdom.

The transition to wisdom requires a little self-directed enquiry (education which delivers understanding of the world around and how it works) and pair-bond formation (as in voles) - and is timed to occur at the female menopause - as part of the (metamorphic - like frogs and butterflies) human life-cycle.

So - construction of mind + neuroendocrine pair-bond formation -> completion of the human life-cycle (wisdom).

However - the mind needs to be constructed to edliver understanding - and not disconnected knowledge - which breaks the mind.
Simple marriage (the administrative procedure) does not guarantee pair-bond formation will occur.

Pair-bond formation explains away the subconscious creep of 'love' (the love story) into pretty much every popular book, movie and song
- explains why we appear to be obsessed with the subject of love.

-*-

In summary though - all that this post is attempting to achieve - is to find out whether point 1 is understood and if not, what I need to do to make it understood
- and if people are pretending not to understand the idea

- what do I need to do for them to stop pretending ?

The idea is there for the benefit of all people (things) current and (future generations)
- it's of no use to me.

I really don't understand it - and believe that I'm not going to be allowed access to a dentist (I'm in real pain at the moment) until somebody lifts the ban and acknowledges the idea.

Why do I think that I'm not being allowed to see a dentist before this idea is understood ?
Because the dentist provides the perfect example of original sin in society.

SB_UK
01-05-12, 07:16 AM
Health care is all about making profit from the sick.
Law is all about making profit from chaos.

Healthcare (particularly private) profits from sickness and the lawyer profits from discord.

Everybody knows all of this - I'm not too sure why I'm expected to repeat it.

Yesterday I was exposed to a dentist who wanted to do unnecessary work on a healthy tooth for a vast amount of money.
I know this because it transpired during the appointment that she was looking at an X-ray of the wrong tooth.
That's work which I have to pay for which will damage healthy tissue.

She's done a wonderful job of highlighting original sin.

Can we move on now ???

The pain I'm feeling, fear of 'healthcare providers' (operating for selfish reasons) etc should be a wonderful example of what happens when we allow greed to flourish.

The problems I'm having are partly due to seeing an NHS dentist just before - who performed work on the wrong tooth also - and then created more problems when trying to correct the problem; he was an NHS (cheaper) dentist - whereas the one I saw yesterday was a private dentist.

The NHS dentist obviously feels hard done by having to work for less money than the private dentist who performs much more work than is required for money; both the NHS (cheaper) and private systems are flawed because - the dentists aren't doing what they love.

When people choose paths which are motivated by only money (the love/desire of money) - the individual is broken by the love/desire - and they become callous.

The private dentist/doctor and lawyer are perfect examples of this idea; they profit from harm which befalls others.

The pain caused by these people can be significant.

Which of course is the point of this thread.

Hell <- feed <- greed -> starve -> Heaven
Heaven represents social reward
Hell represents selfish reward

Reward represents human motivation.

There are 2 motivations.

Human beings are supposed to be escaping greed at state wisdom and gaining access to a neural pathway which allows the individual (at wisdom) access to reward without greed.

The Buddha no longer wanted anything and would just sit there without a care in the world - meditating away.

That's the transition which we're required to make, in order to generate a group of wisdom which can navigate the species out from its current predicament and into sunnier climes.

Literally disabled here waiting for somebody to lift the ban and state that they understand the 1 idea which is expressed - perhaps 20 or so times over in this one thread, thus far, from differing perspectives.

SB_UK
01-05-12, 07:22 AM
So here's the idea again:
Hell <- feed <- greed -> starve -> Heaven

SB_UK
01-05-12, 07:25 AM
Here's the idea in Christianity

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sin

SB_UK
01-05-12, 07:26 AM
Here's the idea in Hinduism

http://vedabase.net/sb/7/10/8/

SB_UK
01-05-12, 07:32 AM
Note though that all that needs to be understood is that there's a very definite transition to wisdom which occurs and which frees the individual from needs/love/desires for any*thing* else.

If we imagine it to be transcending our 'physical' nature and attaining a state which because it has transcended its physical nature - no longer requires anything from the physical (material) world.

So - I believe that a basal level of food and heat are required - am guessing that the warm countries which define the transition to wisdom (the Buddha) supplied sufficient heat

- and judging by my appetite currently - an incredibly small amount of very basic foodstuffs appears to be all that is requried.

Maybe just vegetables and bread for a treat.

-*-

But having said all of that - the process of enlightenment doesn't mean that if a person cuts off your arms and legs that it won't hurt.

Of course it'll hurt.

And our problem right now - is that the health care and justice providers are profiting really quite heavily from your ignorance and from your misery -

- and no matter of enlightenment is going to stop teeth which have been badly drilled or fines of tens of thousands of pounds generated through legal technicality from hurting; yes - I've experience of both.

*Society* is in real trouble - and underlying the trouble is the basic idea in this thread.

Here's a well known version of the idea described in this thread:
The love/desire of money is the root of all evil.

Note though that this expression of the idea doesn't capture the scope of the idea.

It's the love/desire/need which defines the reward system of the pre-wise mind
- all motivations prior to wisdom activate the neurochemical pathway which is being referenced by love/desire in the phrase 'love/desire of money is the root of all evil'.

Please can somebody acknowledge it and then allow me to see a dentist who's capable of replace a filling or two from X-rays which clearly show the site of decay ?

stef
01-05-12, 07:36 AM
look - I'm at work and I can't read all of your posts in detail! but isn't this pretty much Buddhist ideas? argh I can't think of what i mean , it"s "something thao of something"! I gave this book to my husband.

well wisdom yes for full enlightenment - but society just doesn't work that way.
It's an ideal to achieve though. yet the "giving" of chocoaltes etc, well I think gifts are kind...

full reply on Sunday night! (I am at work now, for very wealthy people...rather irionic)

SB_UK
01-05-12, 07:40 AM
but isn't this pretty much Buddhist ideas?

Yes Buddhist - though also expressed in Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism also - probably elsewhere I don't really know much about other religions.

That's why I can't work out why people don't want to acknowledge a simplification of an idea which has been around for thousands and thousands of years
- and which most people should have heard of.

SB_UK
01-05-12, 07:44 AM
I can't read all of your posts

Only look at the 3 pictures in post 6 or point 1 in post 2 for a complete summary of the thread.

There is no more to the idea.:(

Here it is again:

Human being born to 1 reward system (primitive/selfish)
->- transition to wisdom ->-
Human being changes to Higher reward system (modern/social)

Unmanagable
01-05-12, 07:54 AM
I'm feeling what you're saying, but it took a while to get through all of your posts to respond. :)

I'm not confident in my ability to form sentences after being up all night, but I understand what you're saying and feel it as well. So I'll give it a shot.

I had a co-worker lose her son on christmas day - unexpected and sudden death. I've been helping with arrangements, expenses, etc. and am pi**ed at how much funeral homes, newspaers, etc. charge for death related expenses. I told the funeral director it seems folks can't afford to be educated, healthy, or dead. Meanwhile, you pay he!! for living.

I'm a state employee and witness unethical events on a damn near daily basis. In a system that is supposed to promote optimum independence, it's actually doing a whole lot more of fostering dependence.

Etc., etc.

The way I discovered the defined state of wisdom (if i'm even on the same track with ya' here) was mainly through suffering and gaining knowledge from those lessons learned. Inspiration often comes from desparation. That's a continual process. Ouch. Learn. Ouch. Learn.

It took a while to accept that all of those ouches were in some way connected to the good as well. Suffering and experience are often the how and the why because we don't know what the heck else to do by the time we reach that 'point' in our life of needing/wanting/knowing that you need to understand more and do more.

The only way I reached that point (after many failed attempts) was to tap into the mindfulness and meditation to go within to discover what I'd been doing without.


Am I anywhere close? :)

SB_UK
01-05-12, 08:28 AM
I think that you're describing becoming wiser as opposed to gaining wisdom.

We make the jouney to the transition exactly as you suggest - though the transition to the defined state of wisdom is noted only from the state of wisdom by the lack in motivation which the individual then feels to motivations, priot to wisdom, which attracted.

I'm trying to explain that prior to wisdom the individual's motivation is different to after wisdom.
After wisdom, one finds that one's motivation to engage in the behaviours which were once motivating is lost.

It's almost as if the individual becomes violently shunted into the desire to be in either the sleeping or walking meditative state throughout all of one's waking life.

Speaking with vocal cords becomes impossible.

Life switches into a permanent (during our waking hours) transcendental phase -
our minds (post-transition) are lost in daydream

- we don't (actively don't) want any of the material world desires (described above).

It's likely that this state might be considered lazy by the pre-wise mind
- it isn't lazy though

- it's a more organized structure of mind which can see the pitfalls which the pre-wise mind launches society into - and all because of the pre-wise mind being unable to see out from their (primitive) reward system.

So - yes - you're describing how it feels on the journey to the transition.
I'm trying to describe what it feels like after the transition.
Also trying to suggest that the transition isn't too obvious - and that it's best inferred by looking deep within oneself - at one's motivations - and trying to ascertain whether what once was motivating (eg the desire for money to buy some new thing) has disappeared.

So - the actual shift in motivations from 'on the go' to 'happy just to be'.

A transition which is lead to by exactly the type of experiences described in your post
- by observing and being personally appalled at the sorts of behaviour which people apply to others.

To be disgusted by other human beings -

the evidence continues to mount until at state wisdom - the mind changes and instead of disgust at eg the private dentist/doctor/lawyer/plumber/car mechanic profiting from your lack of knowledge - potentially harming you in the process of making more money (see private dentist example above - my experience from yesterday)

- the individual sees that the private dentist/lawyer/doctor are trapped in a reward system which they can't escape.

So - as such - the switch to wisdom brings with it an understanding of the nature of corruption (corrupt behaviour).

The dentist knows that I don't need the work which they're suggesting I requrie.
The dentist knows that root canal work will dramatically shorten the time before the tooth drops off.
The dentist probably has the smallest of beliefs that they're doing it for the best.
With the smallest of logical beliefs supported by the vast power of selfish greed - they attack their patients.

This is the point - at the defined state of wisdom - the individual is born again (resurrection) and gets to see the vicious nature of the pre-wise mind.

The vicious nature of the pre-wise mind, which is actually the innate nature of the pre-wise mind.

As the pre-wise mind grows wiser - the behaviour tempers
- it's not though until the transition to wisdom that their behaviour becomes enforcedly rational/moral.

We've a very great problem in society - because the vicious state of mind is part of the innate nature of the individual pre-wisdom -
and there's nothing that we can do about it -

particularly so if they feed the desire
- feeding the desire occurs by falling under the spell of money (the very high rates which the private doctor/dentist/builder/lawyer/plumber charge) ... ... ...

Being successful in attaining primitive reward - feeds the reward - sends the individual closer to Hell - prevents the individual from growing wiser

- from growing to the defined transition point at which wisdom becomes an innate character of the individual.

At the state of wisdom the individual is born again.

This is what the resurrection of Christ is meant to signify.

The resurrection of Christ is the exact same event as the enlightenment of Buddha.
The wisdom of Socrates occurs after resurrection/enlightenment.

Note though that there's a huge difference between growing wiser and the transition to wisdom/enlightenment/resurrection.

The enlightenment/resurrection were events - actual events - which occur over a very small period of time (perhaps instantaneous).

The important point is that the transition is hard to note - and is best inferred by examining the motivations of the individual
- the behaviours which motivate the individual to action

- when previously motivating behaviours cease to 'float' our boat and we begin life more like the Buddha - in a state of constant 'daydream' -

we've transcended material world desire (as reward system) and hit the spiritual state in which material world desires are no longer required, no longer motivate, no longer are required

- in which the individual is no longer able to comply.

Motivation requires a mechanism to keep it in place.

When that motivation is gone - we're no longer motivated.

SB_UK
01-05-12, 08:31 AM
So - yes

live - motivation set 1 - experience - pain - grow wiser - pair-bond - state wisdom - new motivation set 2


motivation set 1 - material world desires are requried to float our boat - activate our dop[aminergic system - for us to live

-> transition to wisdom/resurrection/enlightenment ->

motivation set 2 - spiritual state - happy just to be - we don't need to tickle our dopaminergic system with exogenous factors

-*-

Just going out to beg for the extremely expensive X-rays we had to pay for yesterday - to try and take them to find a dentist

will reply when I'm back.

SB_UK
01-05-12, 11:32 AM
So - the human life cycle

- we are born -> we live -> we learn -> we're defined by the primitive reward system -> we commence pair-bond formation (fall in love) -> upon pair-bond completion (timed to the female menopause) we gain wisdom -> we become defined by the social reward system

Note - wisdom doesn't occur without a mind which understands (some knowledge required) and pair-bond formation.

The Book of Wisdom (of Solomon) contains the 'Song of Solomon' which is just a plain old love story.
But there's nothing plain old about it.

The Book is an attempt to show the importance of pair bond formation to the transition to wisdom.

I haven't worked out whether wisdom is possible in the non pair-bonded state (eg monks in a monastery) and I haven't worked out whether same sex partners can form the pair-bond.
Both of these issues are mentioned in the pair bond thread in the private section.

Ideally the answer'd be yes - but for the time being I'm concentrating on what I know (from personal experience and reading) - taking in the majority's lifestyle (as advocated by religion) of one man/one woman.

SB_UK
01-05-12, 11:34 AM
There's a woman mentioned around Buddha, Christ and Socrates.

SB_UK
01-05-12, 12:01 PM
wow! Close to £5k work needs doing by a private dentist - shortly after getting the A OK no dental problems from an NHS dentist
- and then it turns out that the private dentist had made a mistake and was quoting on only 1 of the specific 3 teeth I'm having a problem with (that I went into the dentist to have X-rays of) ... ... ...
2 of the teeth they were quoting on were adjacent to the teeth I'm having pain in.

The species is $crewed and it's impossible to explain why because the basic message described in this post is impossible to relay on.

Either that or there's some kinda' consensus not to acknowledge it.

Very bizarre behaviour.

ADD hasn't any choice other than to stare straight into the heart of the problem
- because (as mentioned above) we're particularly predisposed (actually - we are) the solution.

Exactly as Hartmann states 'old souls nearing enlightenment' - simply a group of people with a structure of brain/mind which helps us to aspire towards / to think only globally logically consistent thoughts
- predisposed to making the transition to wisdom.

pechemignonne
01-05-12, 12:01 PM
Just FYI:

The Song of Songs (Song of Solomon) is a separate book from the Book of Wisdom (Wisdom of Solomon).

The Song of Songs is a lyrical poem. The Wisdom of Solomon is a series of prophetic and philosophical musings.

Although both are considered part of the "Wisdom" section of the Hebrew Septuagint, they are two separate books.

Whereas the Song of Songs appears in the Tanakh (ancient Hebrew holy texts - c. 450 BCE), the Book of Wisdom was written much later (c. 100-200 BCE), probably originally in Greek, and is clearly influenced by the Gnostics.

The Book of Wisdom is deuterocanonical, and therefore does not appear in Protestant versions of the Bible.

SB_UK
01-05-12, 12:10 PM
Do the three [1,2,3] sentences above make sense, because I haven't been able to find anybody who will admit to understanding them ?

The answer is no they don't make sense or yes they do make sense.
If they don't make sense then I'll try to express the idea in a different way.

Note - If they do make sense (if they can be understood (if the idea makes English sense)) then you don't have to agree with them.

I just want to know if the 3 sentences make sense - or maybe one of the sets of pictures.

Or if one of the sets of pictures isn't enough - feel free to read any of the perspectives offered in the rest of this thread to add weight to the pictures.

Here's another perspective.

The body takes 9 months to develop in the uterus.
The mind takes 35 years or so (timed to the female menopause) to develop - and for the individual (mind and pair bond dependent) to become wise (the endpoint of mind).

The endpoint of mind is described in the phrase - Vedanta (the end of knowledge) or by the idea of completing the Tree of Knowledge (of good and evil).

As soon as wisdom is gained (Hinduism - The end of knowledge - Socrates - 'I know that I know nothing' - Judaism - Completion of The Tree of Knowledge) we're gifted with escape from a mind which knows 'good and evil'.
Evil (extreme behaviours in an individual still caught up in original sin/the primitive reward system/selfish greed/ego eg the Head of the Scientologists, many of the deposed leaders of the Middle East, the recently deceased leader of North Korea) is seen as the consequence of a mind which is immature (not yet formed, not yet wise).

Understanding good/evil - we don't see those guys as 'evil' per se - born evil etc -
- we see the creation of evil through the power which an individual takes for himself over other people - a power which warps the mind away from wisdom/the social mindset and towards the primitive reward system of material world desires.

'Evil' occurs by environmental effects exerted upon an individual whilst they're building their mind - taking their mind away from an understanding of reality/giving themselves away in pair-bonding - towards developing a false sense of self (God delusion - as sported by many 'leaders' over history - their claims of a special divine nature) -
- as the individual tends towards the top of a hierarchical system in which other people below are meant to obey (tyrannical regimes) -
- the individual is forced to break their own mind.

It's easy to illustrate this idea using extremes (tyrannical leaders) - however this idea applies equally well to people who are motivated by money - particularly in UK - the private dentist who is allowed to set his own fees and choose the work he deigns necessary without fear of retribution.

The private dentist is no different to the mass murdering leader of a tyrannical regime from the perspective that they're both motivated by the primitive reward system (material world desire) - by money/power/sex - the material world desires.
As such - both classes are variations on evil.
On original sin.

Though the private dentist shouldn't feel bad - because they're joined by the private doctor, lawyer, builder, plumber
- anybody who gets to set their own fees -
anybody who's motivated by money
- anybody whose 'profession' feeds the material world desire.

There is no solution to this problem other than to shift to a system where people do not work for money.

Working for money IMPLIES ABSOLUTELY that you are still in the grips of original sin/selfishness/personal greed/material world desire.

Once enlightenment occurs the individual is not able to work for money (a material world desire) because the motivation is gone.

Because it's wrong
- and we become defined on having to do what's right.

SB_UK
01-05-12, 01:15 PM
wow, I get that. always wondered why i couldnt care less about money.

Thanks - do you see the consequence(s) of the idea ?

I'm suggesting 2 motivational systems - one immature, the other mature - with the immature (lower,primitive) reward system having been employed to define social infrastructure (the social infrastructure which we're forced to live in).

We're forced to live in a social infrastructure which is below us.

The more moral (actually by design at wisdom) cannot live to immoral rules.

Actually cannot - our minds won't let us.

The mind throws up a logical error - you must behave immorally to survive (use money -etc-) and you must not behave immorally.

It's as if we've a 'logical' war going on in our heads.

Do we survive physically ?
Do we survive mentally ?

Survive mentally and one cannot survive physically.
Survive physically and one cannot survive mentally.

It's an incredible (in a very bad way) problem.

No motivation to behave immorally to acquire the construct of money - absolutely required to survive physically (even basally).
In fact motivation to behave morally - which actively provides us with motivation not to behave immorally - not to acquire money - where money is absolutely required, even if only to survive basally - wood + vegetables in cold climates.

I can't resolve this problem without massive global societal change.

Blueranne
01-05-12, 01:19 PM
SB_UK, I thought I understood what you were trying to say initially, but as I kept reading, and as you kept trying to clarify, I started to get confused.

You said there is a big difference between the process of gaining "wisdom" and the event of "wisdom". I think you are looking at this wrong, or you represented it oddly. I've always thought of it in terms of darkness and light. There is only pure darkness and then varying degrees of light.... So, to me, it's all about the process.

Also, you were wondering why people won't acknowledge an understanding of what you are saying, well maybe it has to do with the word "wisdom". I think that word is going to initiate some defensiveness in people, especially with your impatience with receiving a response. Why do you need our response? Isn't sharing the knowledge enough? Just because people don't respond doesn't mean your message wasn't understood.

I'm sorry you had a bad experience at the dentist yesterday. What I've done in the past is to take advantage of "new patient" coupons, the kind that offer free x-rays and cleanings. Then use the coupons and shop for a dentist that you do feel confident in.

*******

I hope my response hasn't showed too much a lack of "wisdom". I suppose now you can correct my misunderstanding.

Gilthranon
01-05-12, 01:27 PM
[1] Why and How does a/the individual attain the defined state of wisdom ?

My apologies for just caring about that. The rest was filled with black symbols repeatedly put on repetitive white background... my mind kept wandering :)

There isn't a definitive moment where wisdom is obtained. This is relative. No limit exists. Since we merely use 40 % of our brain (and even that depends on sexes)

Test challenge : Define Black Matter and define gravity. Than define how the dimensions interfere with absolutely everything.

You know 'em - you have maybe not an absolute, but you've reached the limit of the universe.

Oh yeah - since they recently proved timetravel is possible by artificially manipulating dimensions in order to create a wormhole to travel and duplicate objects through an alternate universe and make it appear back in our universe again - help Einstein out of his misery and correct his string theories that seem to be misleading.

;)

Turbochica
01-05-12, 01:28 PM
I found this thread and am intrigued by it.
I must confess I cursory glance read a few posts. I want to write my comments without the influence of what has been written thus far. so bear with me if I am redundant or random or totally out of context with the previous discussion as I explore my thoughts on wisdom here.

Wisdom, how is that defined
wis·dom/ˈwizdəm/


The quality of having experience, knowledge, and good judgment; the quality of being wise.
The soundness of an action or decision with regard to the application of such experience, knowledge, and good judgment

experience
knowledge
good judgement


seems to me you need the combination of all three things to have wisdom. Leave one item out of the equation and it's not.


Attaining wisdom is a lifetime journey as is applying it to your life.


Wisdom should be sought after, like precious jewels to be mounted in the setting of our lives. or is wisdom the light that shines through us, the precious gem and brings out the sparkle, the clarity the facets of who we are?
is ignoring wisdom tantamount to letting dirt and grime cover the gem and lodge it self in the setting therefore making it dull and lifeless. Clean out the grime and let wisdom shine and show the sparkle and beauty again


Wisdom stands the test of time therefore strive to get wisdom.
thanks for reading this.
I will go back and read the thread now .



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Turbochica
01-05-12, 01:40 PM
All that the Buddha has gained - is freedom from material world attachment.
to me freedom from the material world attachment means not being a slave to the material and lust for it, and an unsatisfiable desire for more.

we are material human beings with very real physical needs, for food, sleep, exercise, community, relationships, therefore we can never divorce ourselves from the material, rather exhibit self control over it.

pechemignonne
01-05-12, 02:21 PM
to me freedom from the material world attachment means not being a slave to the material and lust for it, and an unsatisfiable desire for more.
Exactly. Freedom from extreme attachment makes sense to me, but rejection of the material world does not.

we are material human beings with very real physical needs, for food, sleep, exercise, community, relationships, therefore we can never divorce ourselves from the material, rather exhibit self control over it.
^^ This!

SB_UK
01-05-12, 02:39 PM
SB_UK, I thought I understood what you were trying to say initially, but as I kept reading, and as you kept trying to clarify, I started to get confused.

You said there is a big difference between the process of gaining "wisdom" and the event of "wisdom". I think you are looking at this wrong, or you represented it oddly. I've always thought of it in terms of darkness and light. There is only pure darkness and then varying degrees of light.... So, to me, it's all about the process.

Also, you were wondering why people won't acknowledge an understanding of what you are saying, well maybe it has to do with the word "wisdom". I think that word is going to initiate some defensiveness in people, especially with your impatience with receiving a response. Why do you need our response? Isn't sharing the knowledge enough? Just because people don't respond doesn't mean your message wasn't understood.

I'm sorry you had a bad experience at the dentist yesterday. What I've done in the past is to take advantage of "new patient" coupons, the kind that offer free x-rays and cleanings. Then use the coupons and shop for a dentist that you do feel confident in.

*******

I hope my response hasn't showed too much a lack of "wisdom". I suppose now you can correct my misunderstanding.

Hi! numbering the points
[1]
If you can see it as from
->- black through ->- shades of dark grey ->- {transition} ->- to white
- then that's all there is to the idea.

Growing wise (shades of grey).
Attaining wisdom (transition to white).

transiti/on

[2]
This idea needs to be understood by people for it to work.
Without verification by examination that the idea actually makes sense to the individual - the idea has not taken root.
Advantages to the individual are only gained through the idea taking root.
Advantages to the individual occur directly, but also indirectly by social change - explaining my interest in other people gaining benefit from the idea.

I'll gain indirectly as a body of will is generated which wants to see in a better world (more social world) -
- see the piece of work 'why more equal societies do better' by epidemiologists Wilkinson and Pickett for a scientific viewpoint.

The simple idea is that adoption of a social mindset benefits the individual (as they gain freedom from desire) ->- is a necessary prerequisite for the individual to want to bring about social change ->- from which others (all other people) benefit.

The idea only works if people understand it.

[3]
I've had bad experiences in the last 6 (consecutively) private and NHS dentists I've seen.
Poor work from the NHS - remarkable bills from the private sector.

We're given an insight - through examining the NHS dentist and private dentist of the consequence of people working for money.
The guy who is earning less is not happy and performs substandard work.
The guy who is paid for the amount of work he does - exaggerates the work needed for reasons of money.

Neither of these systems work because the dentist is not happy in his work.

The only acceptable solution and in parallel with a comment made to Namazu wrt medicine is to rediscover the Hippocrates oath and "prevention"
- we can prevent dental disease in the future by examining the historical record and defining when dental disease (the type of food stuff) entered the fossil record.

http://books.google.com/books?id=gLvDfla1Jp0C&printsec=frontcover&img=1&zoom=1&l=80

surprise surprise !!

The hideously hyperglycaemic agent.

From protein power (by husband and wife endocrinologists Drs. Eades) we don't actually need to eat *any* carbohydrate.

And what does carb intake lead to -> insulin -> fat deposition.

Epidemics of dental disease, diabetes and obesity wiped out overnight if somebody in our healthcare establishment 'd read the Hippocrates oath.

Prevention is far preferable to cure.

Epidemiology (whole human) is the most noble of medical research departments.

SB_UK
01-05-12, 02:46 PM
There isn't a definitive moment where wisdom is obtained. This is relative. No limit exists. Since we merely use 40 % of our brain (and even that depends on sexes)


Can I point you to point 1 in the previous post.

I'm suggesting that the transition to wisdom - exactly as we imagine the resurrection of Christ and the enlightenment of Buddha to be instantaneous events.

Though potentially instantaneous events which the individual might not be aware of - though becomes aware of through a motivational shift in the behaviour which the individual then exerts (described in more detail above).

Particularly of note eg in the case of Pirsig - is the shift into reclusion which occurs with the transition to wisdom.

It's that the motivational set has changed and the individual can no longer behave as he did before the motivational change.

The recluse bears striking similarities to the image which is brough to mind when we imagine the behaviour of the post-enlightenment Buddha.

The change (in motivational sets) is so great, that it is useful to describe the transition as death/rebirth (see Christianity).

The stories of Buddhism and Christianity are entirely complementary - more so are required to explain one another.

The enlightenment and The resurrection were events.

This is a really important point - perhaps the key point to be made.

The evidence I'm offering is the 'event' nature of The enlightenment and The resurrection - along with a mechanism (emergent evolutionary events)

- which just occur (in an instant) -

imagine crystallization (an event).

SB_UK
01-05-12, 02:55 PM
Test challenge : Define Black Matter and define gravity. Than define how the dimensions interfere with absolutely everything.


Not really interested in these any more - but something like - imagine phenomenological reality is moving in a circle through 24 positions -
ooooooo
ooooooo
ooooooo <- emergent structure 1 is at position red
ooooooo
ooooooo
ooooooo
ooooooo

ooooooo
ooooooo
ooooooo <- emergent structure 2 is at position red
ooooooo
ooooooo
ooooooo
ooooooo


- that we're shifting - as is all of reality through these various 24 positions -
the other 23 will appear empty.

You'd expect ~4% to be knowable and 96% to be unknowable (dark matter).

Gravity - the thread that connects Universal structure - a single fundamental interconnectedness which lies immediately below structure formation.

Imagine a buncha' balls made up from a piece of wire.
Imagine we only know the things which're made up from the piece of wire.

The piece of wire binds the entire structure together - is a fundamental interconnectedness - at the quantum interface.

Now imagine that each of those balls is a slinky turned into a circle consisting of 24 positions (exactly as shown in the image above) -
and imagine that every emergent structure (slinky) - involves a sequential shift through each of the 24 positions (exactly as shown in the image above).

Thereby
- in our constantly changing environment (of a collection of emergent structures) in which everything knowable is constantly changing -that is- cycling through the 24 positions
- whenever we look out 96% of the space out there will be incoherent.

Bound (connected by gravity) - but incoherent (dark).

That's all; any idiot with an imagination can work it out.

-*-

I may need to think about that last idea in this post - but honestly - not particularly interested any more.

Just interested in explaining wisdom.

Blueranne
01-05-12, 03:01 PM
SU_BK, shoot, I'm really trying hard to follow your logic, but you may have to start speaking in parables, as in real short stories, for me to understand what you are saying.

I still don't understand why you need verification of understanding for an idea to take root. I guess you find meaning in helping people gain wisdom? But, others growing more wise is independent of your meaning.

... Ok, I might have to readdress this thread later. I feel nearly brain dead at the moment.

SB_UK
01-05-12, 03:08 PM
I found this thread and am intrigued by it.
I must confess I cursory glance read a few posts. I want to write my comments without the influence of what has been written thus far. so bear with me if I am redundant or random or totally out of context with the previous discussion as I explore my thoughts on wisdom here.

Wisdom, how is that defined
wis·dom/ˈwizdəm/


The quality of having experience, knowledge, and good judgment; the quality of being wise.
The soundness of an action or decision with regard to the application of such experience, knowledge, and good judgment

experience
knowledge
good judgement


seems to me you need the combination of all three things to have wisdom. Leave one item out of the equation and it's not.


Attaining wisdom is a lifetime journey as is applying it to your life.


Wisdom should be sought after, like precious jewels to be mounted in the setting of our lives. or is wisdom the light that shines through us, the precious gem and brings out the sparkle, the clarity the facets of who we are?
is ignoring wisdom tantamount to letting dirt and grime cover the gem and lodge it self in the setting therefore making it dull and lifeless. Clean out the grime and let wisdom shine and show the sparkle and beauty again


Wisdom stands the test of time therefore strive to get wisdom.
thanks for reading this.
I will go back and read the thread now .



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experience
knowledge
good judgement

Yes - but with particular reference to good judgement.

Experience isn't enough.
Knowledge isn't enough.

Meadd823,Einstein - 'any idiot can know, the object is to understand'

To understand relates to the structure of mind (the mind having undergone the transition to wisdom) and ABSOLUTELY DEFINITELY -
good judgement arises as a consequence of this change in conformation of mind.

So - particularly yes to good judgement (with experience/knowledge) playing a supporting role.

Note though that wisdom is incompletely understood in the dictionary - and so to extend the idea of wisdom into a defined event which leads to a conformational shift in the mind is what I'm after.

The consequence of the conformational shift is the switch to enforced moral consistency/enforced morality/enforced logicality which brings with it good judgement.

Experience and Knowledge help us to grow wiser - which isn't the exact same thing as the transition to wisdom.

In the state of wisdom - the individual cannot act unwisely.
As the individual (in stark contrast) grows wiser - they're still able to act unwisely.

Wisdom is a defined state - within which, if we prefer to be negative about things, there is no escape.
You are stuck in the wise state - can no longer act unwisely.

SB_UK
01-05-12, 03:22 PM
to me freedom from the material world attachment means not being a slave to the material and lust for it, and an unsatisfiable desire for more.

we are material human beings with very real physical needs, for food, sleep, exercise, community, relationships, therefore we can never divorce ourselves from the material, rather exhibit self control over it.

[1]
Imagine somebody who doesn't drink alcohol, someone who drinks a bit and an alcoholic.
I'm trying to point at the transition to freedom from material world desire as resulting in a shift away from the desire to drink alcohol -
whereas your definition is more in line with the idea of being an individual who drinks alcohol in moderation.

After completely giving up alcohol - because I didn't want it - after taking dexedrine - I can see that my material world desire loss (satisfaction) with dexedrine - activation of my dopaminergic circuit -
didn't only stop me from becoming an alcoholic (definitely tending in that direction) -
- but actively made me repelled by the thought of drinking alcohol.

The motivation is lost - and with it the drive.
All human behaviours require motivation to keep them in place - without motivation (an active principle) - the individual just won't comply.

So - absolutely yes - in the case of the specific set of material world desires (described below) - we lose the attraction completely and so do not comply.

It's not that we reduce our salaries from ulra-high to medium - it's that we can't {earn,touch} money at all -
because the active love/desire keeping us motivated is lost.

The love/desire of money is the root of all evil.
Lose the love/desire of money and it's replaced by repulsion - it's not that we can earn an average salary after the transition - it's that we can't touch it at all
- because it's wrong.

Alcohol was only attractive (to me at least) because of its effects on my reward system
- the primitive reward system -

- when that reward system is transcended (or in the case of dexedrine - swamped) - there's no motivation to comply.

The reward system is optimally activated.

I could be convinced maybe ??? to try a small amount of alcohol if it's to develop a neural sense of quality - though the moving sound and image -
and the development of quality sensing machinery of the eye and ear -
appear (at least in my case) to have taken an unassailable lead on anything to do with the sense of taste.

[2]
Not all of those are material world desires.

I'm pointing to the generally selfishly rewarding reward system activators of money, sex, power, materialism, consumerism, thirst for more knowledge than others where knowledge is power ... ...

food -> basal levels of proper foods - not all foods eaten currently (see books - "wheat belly", "sugar - the bitter truth","protein power - zero carb intake required by man".
sleep -> not a material world desire
exercise -> not a material world desire unless it's profe$$ional only for profit or some Jingoistic exercise ~eg~ the Olympics.
community -> social structure formation is what this whole idea is about
relationships -> pair bond formation, child bond formation, (pair bond)n association (cf Jesus - love thy neighbour) is a major part of what this idea is all about.

SB_UK
01-05-12, 03:46 PM
SU_BK, shoot, I'm really trying hard to follow your logic, but you may have to start speaking in parables, as in real short stories, for me to understand what you are saying.

I still don't understand why you need verification of understanding for an idea to take root. I guess you find meaning in helping people gain wisdom? But, others growing more wise is independent of your meaning.

... Ok, I might have to readdress this thread later. I feel nearly brain dead at the moment.

The promised land lies through a door in the back of all of our wardrobes.
Sadly though - it requires all people simultaneously - at an agreed hour - to push back on the back of the wardrobe, for us *all* to enter.

Pushing on the back of the door of our wardrobes is used to describe a mind which gains understanding of the idea.

All of us pushing on the back of the wardrobe together is meant to describe the consequences occurring upon understanding the idea - on how people will collaborate together
- towards building the promised land.

As we build the promised land, we'll find that future generations will be gifted entry - thanks to their predecessors efforts of building a promised land for them to grow up in.

Future generations won't have the problems we're having of having to try and convince people that working {socially, collaboratively} is sensible -
- because that (in the approaching world) will be the default state in which we work.
Kids'll be trained in how to push on the backs of wardrobe doors and will no longer need to suffer the pain (of not attaining bliss and having one's material world desire remain in control over the self)
- the consequence of living one's life not knowing that that's (the pushing on the back of the wardrobe door) is what's expected
(and therefore not attempting the procedure).

The transition to wisdom will be easier for future generations - as long as we get our head around what *precisely* wisdom is.

Judaism's Book of Wisdom, Christianity's resurrection, Buddhism's enlightenment and Hinduism's 'freedom from material desire' (note - these are the only religions I know about - apologies to the others ... ... ...) are all pointing us to an event.

Wisdom occurring as a specific event.

An emergent evolutionary event - identical in timeframe to 'crystallization'.

It's just that it's logical models crystallizing within our neural structure.
The neural structure of ADDers has a propensity, because of its shape - to logical model (mental layer of abstraction) crystallization.

The mental layer of abstraction lies above the physical (neural) layer of abstraction.

It's a bit like the connection between hardware and software - that a faster chip (physical layer - neural layer) runs software (virtual layer - mental layer) quicker.

Saboit
01-05-12, 03:54 PM
Can anyone please explain to me in simpler terms what you are talking about

sarek
01-05-12, 04:16 PM
Can anyone please explain to me in simpler terms what you are talking about


I think the difficulty with understanding these things is that they are beyond what can be taught. It can only be learned as part of a personal journey which is different for everyone.

pechemignonne
01-05-12, 04:27 PM
I think the difficulty with understanding these things is that they are beyond what can be taught. It can only be learned as part of a personal journey which is different for everyone.
Some people are able to explain and discuss tremendously complex and abstract concepts.

I don't think that the subject of this thread is beyond comprehension, if we try to stick to clear writing where possible.

SB_UK
01-05-12, 04:31 PM
can anyone please explain to me in simpler terms what you are talking about
so what is this thread about ?

[1] why and how does a/the individual attain the defined state of wisdom ?

in 1 simple sentence.

[2] why become enlightened ?
- because until enlightenment the individual is drawn to behaviours which will cause the individual/society harm.

[3] how to become enlightened ?
- education by self-enquiry and pair-bonding.

so what is this thread about ?

do the three [1,2,3] sentences above make sense, because i haven't been able to find anybody who will admit to understanding them ?

i'm only after knowing whether the three sentences above can be understood - that is do they make sense ? Do i need to reword them ?

there's some sort of a block which appears to prevent people from admitting to understanding these three sentences - it's very strange.



12345

Abi
01-05-12, 04:34 PM
??

I can't see the posts you're in agreement with.

I understand and see the connection to the Turbo posts.

I don't know what you disagree with from Turbo's posts - but they make points which are entirely consistent with the points I'm making.

It's too hot here in the Southern Hemisphere for me to explain in detail.

I'll get back to you in June.

SB_UK
01-05-12, 04:37 PM
I think the difficulty with understanding these things is that they are beyond what can be taught. It can only be learned as part of a personal journey which is different for everyone.

The idea should be relatively simple to understand.

The feeling post-transition, exactly as Sarek writes, may need to be experienced to be 'believed'.

I'm only looking for the idea to be understood.

In the sense - explore this idea and determine whether it 'hangs' together.

There is no attempt to convince anybody whether it's true - the emphasis is on identifying flaws which can force rejection of the idea.

Blueranne
01-05-12, 05:55 PM
Note though that wisdom is incompletely understood in the dictionary - and so to extend the idea of wisdom into a defined event which leads to a conformational shift in the mind is what I'm after.


Apologies for taking this to PM but I feel more comfortable discussing this way...

Isn't the term you are looking for sanctification, the ultimate moment when works + grace combined to equal a perfected being?

Edit: oooops.... LOL Sorry all, I totally thought I was sending a pm. Wow, I really real slow today... Since it's out there I will keep it here unless a mod sees it appropriate to edit or delete.

peripatetic
01-05-12, 08:52 PM
So what is this thread about ?

[1] Why and How does a/the individual attain the defined state of wisdom ?

In 1 simple sentence.

[2] Why become enlightened ?
- Because until enlightenment the individual is drawn to behaviours which will cause the individual/society harm.

[3] How to become enlightened ?
- Education by self-enquiry and Pair-bonding.

So what is this thread about ?

Do the three [1,2,3] sentences above make sense, because I haven't been able to find anybody who will admit to understanding them ?

I'm only after knowing whether the three sentences above can be understood - that is do they make sense ? Do I need to reword them ?

There's some sort of a block which appears to prevent people from admitting to understanding these three sentences - it's very strange.


sb, *if* i understand your definition of wisdom in your thread start post, then the answer to your questions about understanding what you're saying is a "yes" from me.

now, *do* i in fact understand your definition of wisdom? tell me if this rephrase gets at what you're saying:

wisdom is herein used to denote not just an accumulation of knowledge, but more an orientation, the habitual ingraining of a "template" of sorts which becomes a prima facie guide for navigating life.

i know you're familiar with philosophical movements and i would suggest that what corresponds most closely is the virtue ethic. these words are, of course, so heavily connoted that that itself can be a distraction, but much like one cultivates, through action made repeatedly in pursuit so as to develop, the "character trait" of wisdom.

so now you tell me (acknowledging my examples might be a bit choppy--not to mention there are some aspects of the virtue ethic i can imagine you want to sharply differentiate your ideas from): do i understand what you're getting at? :D

peripatetic
01-05-12, 09:37 PM
so, this is, of course, predicated on my earlier post wherein i claimed understanding being accurate; i.e. only if i do actually understand is this criticism applicable, much less useful. but going with thinking i do understand, something that either obscures what you're getting at, or perhaps just a further thing for you to consider whilst contemplating your idea is this:

i think you make a misstep in framing the acquisition of wisdom as a fixed point.

now, perhaps that *is* what you'd intended, in which case i have other questions:D

but what i think you're talking about is something to which a "before" and "after" isn't applicable, or maybe those terms themselves need to be defined. what i mean is that i'm thinking you're talking about wisdom in a way that there wouldn't be a fixed point of acquisition. dare i say, i find the post i've quoted below to be too linear an explanation to get at the dynamic process. now i get that you're trying really hard to make your idea accessible and that oftentimes, i've observed in life, inclines us toward ....how can i say it? the discrete concept of transformation as having a before and an after.

but to look at your post below, here's the part where i struggle with your explanation:

So - bliss occurs with wisdom - when the individual overcomes the needs which prior to attaining wisdom, 'floats' the individual's boat

The transition (to wisdom) needs to occur before the individual is divorced from the need (the material world attachments)

here's why:

i'm not sold on the possibility of the first statement, and i disagree with the second. now, if wisdom is not as i was thinking you defined, disregard of course. however, i think what you've described is so much more process and something that you might recognize almost more in hindsight as having developed. like, the basis for action was this orientation/template that i've repeatedly put into practice such that now it's a part of how i respond, or makes possible x variety of responses.

my concern is not solely because i was thinking along the lines of something that would be a process, a dynamic one of acquisition/implementation/adjustment to the point of opening up access to viewing things with that in mind and also creating habits of thought processes, but also because i think there's a component of "maintenance". just as a habit or template can be "undone" or rendered obsolete, or a language you no longer speak can escape you if left unused, so, too, the process whereby one is enlightened seems to be subject to being "undone".

finally, i really just think, based on experience/observation only, that the lines between necessary conditions and effects are blurred. in other words, what happens first? we overcome a need/desire or we develop the means to let it go? i say neither. we develop our overcoming as we develop the means to release. like, there's this constant dialectic between the two that propels us forward and they only develop in conjunction with one another and as a result of each other such that in hindsight we may assign "before and after", but identifying the discrete moment creating before and after would be an impossibility since wisdom and release aren't static events, but practices.

wow, and on that quasi hegelian note, i'll hit submit;)

Bluerose
01-05-12, 09:49 PM
I'm with Sarek. We learn and we gain knowledge and we become wise, but wisdom is something else again. For me, it's wise to go on a personal, spiritual journey in search of wisdom. And I fully agree that it is almost impossible to define wisdom. Is it an inner knowing, an inner seeing, beyond this illusion that we call reality.

SB_UK
01-06-12, 05:45 AM
Apologies for taking this to PM but I feel more comfortable discussing this way...

Isn't the term you are looking for sanctification, the ultimate moment when works + grace combined to equal a perfected being?

Edit: oooops.... LOL Sorry all, I totally thought I was sending a pm. Wow, I really real slow today... Since it's out there I will keep it here unless a mod sees it appropriate to edit or delete.

From reading
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanctification
- I don't really know the term

- yes the term sanctification and the transition to wisdom are ***exactly*** the same thing.

So - sanctification is a synonym for the specific event or transition to wisdom.

Thanks for teaching me a new word :-)

tudorose
01-06-12, 06:00 AM
Ahh the meaning of life.

Enlightenment = wisdom gained through knowledge and experience. The inner peace achieved by seeing things for what they are and accepting how it is.

I think that would be a nice place to be.

SB_UK
01-06-12, 06:42 AM
sb, *if* i understand your definition of wisdom in your thread start post, then the answer to your questions about understanding what you're saying is a "yes" from me.

now, *do* i in fact understand your definition of wisdom? tell me if this rephrase gets at what you're saying:

wisdom is herein used to denote not just an accumulation of knowledge, but more an orientation, the habitual ingraining of a "template" of sorts which becomes a prima facie guide for navigating life.

i know you're familiar with philosophical movements and i would suggest that what corresponds most closely is the virtue ethic. these words are, of course, so heavily connoted that that itself can be a distraction, but much like one cultivates, through action made repeatedly in pursuit so as to develop, the "character trait" of wisdom.

so now you tell me (acknowledging my examples might be a bit choppy--not to mention there are some aspects of the virtue ethic i can imagine you want to sharply differentiate your ideas from): do i understand what you're getting at? :D

Yes - that sounds like it.

The formation of a structure from knowledge.

The event wisdom results in 'knowledge' stored (eg graphite - where adjacent planes are not connected) crystallizing into diamond (where all 'knowledge' held within the structure anchors itself).

In diamond - each carbon holds in place the rest of the structure.

In graphite - carbon sheets can move over one another.

The consequence of the metaphor (graphite -> diamond) shift within the mind
- that is the wisdom event or crystallization of logical models within the mind on the abstraction layer above the physical (neural/brain)
- is enforced moral consistency - through enforced logical consistency.

The individual's mind is forced to hold only consistent knowledge.

If the individual's mind is forced to be globally logically consistent - and that consistency is towards the survival of the species
- then that person (on gaining wisdom) is enforcedly moral.

The individual cannot thereafter act unwisely/irrationally/illogically from the perspective of survival of the species.

It's really important to note that the precursor state to wisdom can perform all of the same external behaviours as the wisdom state, and a lot more on top - because the pre-wisdom state is not constrained
graphite sheets can be physically pushed into a structure which looks like diamond - all adjacent sheets lined up
- almost the same - though not absolutely

- this is the same as politcial correctness versus innate moral consistency
- two similar structures - one behaving correctly because they think it's the right thing to do, the other because they're compelled to behave 'properly'.

- the important point though is that following the acquisition of wisdom - the individual gains neurochemical reward from acting wisely/rationally/logically from the perspective of happy survival of the species; explore this idea further below ... ...

wisdom is herein used to denote not just an accumulation of knowledge, but more an orientation, the habitual ingraining of a "template" of sorts which becomes a prima facie guide for navigating life.
This really sounds like the idea.
The important point, which I think you make, is that there's a shift in innate nature which (frankly) is a little bewildering.
What once was a motivational factor - no longer motivates.
The individual can be left (post-crystallization of logical models event) wondering what on earth they were thinking previously (when the individual was a victim of the primitive reward system).

Only through realising that the individual pre-wisdom was not in control of themselves (the reward system is our control structure) -
- that the individual did not have free will prior to wisdom
- does the individual make sense of their previous behaviour.

We're prisoners of the need for speed (neurochemical reward from exogenous factors) until we transcend the need for neurochemical reward from exogenous factors through making the emergent evolutionary event/crystallization of logical models within the mind/logical model equivalent of graphite -> diamond transition/resurrection event/renaissance event/become sanctified (thanks for the new term!) etc ... etc ... etc ...

1001 different words for the same transition.

Just a switch from material world desire to freedom from material world desire.

The material world desires are the sorts of behaviours which we perform to self-medicate - which when performed to excess (perhaps when performed at all) are damaging to individual and society.

A great example from Barliman and Gabor Mate - is of his description of his self-medication through overwork -> overpay -> over consumerism (Gabor Mate likes to buy stuff apparently).

Self-medication isn't only alcohol, drugs, risky behaviour, danger sports
- it also includes consumerism, materialism, overworking for money.

Overworking for species benefit with no expectation of material reward (see signature) - instead from social reward - knowing and gaining reward from a job worth doing (for the betterment of current and future generations) is the new motivational paradigm (post-wisdom event); actually - see below - may be able to simplify this idea to the new motivational paradigm as being transcendental meditation - a grand way of describing a very simple process.

Virtue ethics describes the character of a moral agent as a driving force for ethical behaviorSounds good.
At wisdom - one becomes wholly taken by the virtue ethic.
Enforced moral consistency with crystallization of mind.
Enforced virtue ethic with enforced moral consistency with crystallization of logical structure of mind (wisdom).

Thanks for teaching me a new term - I would though need to do quite a considerable amount of reading to know exactly how the term is meant to be used.
The 1 sentence copied from wikiP above totally covers it though.

The "character trait" of wisdomExactly - after the very specific event described in religion as the resurrection/enlightenment - the individual acquires the character trait of wisdom.

That's exactly exactly it.

At the state of wisdom - the individual is constrained to act wisely.
Acting wisely can be interpreted as 'enforced moral consistency'.

The individual has experienced a change in reward systems.

The new reward system represents not only a loss of the motivation which is tickled by the series of behaviours which we (ADDers) call self-medication -that is- alternatives to dexedrine ... ...
-but also it's active rejection.

What does that mean ?

We don't become agnostic to money - that is 'take it or leave it'
- we actively reject it.

Why do we actively reject it ?
After all - it's only a thing.

Looking at this question in more detail :
It's because underlying money - there has to lie a love/desire of money to motivate an individual to comply
- and that love/desire is the thing that we're trying to stamp out.

It's as if by supporting money in any way - we're selling alcohol to people who may become alcoholics.

The new motivational scheme (post-wisdom) sees the problem we've been having -
the love/desire of money is just 1 of the aspects of material world love/desire which make up the primitive reward system
albeit one of particular note - since it 'wraps' many of the others
- the primitive reward system connects to addictive propensity (which is why self-medication often occurs with addictive substances)

- and we see that it (money) - whilst maintained (the love/desire for money) - makes it next to impossible (the allure is too great) for an individual to discard the desire which keeps its acquisition in place.

Trying to explain this idea really simply.

Supporting money in the state of wisdom feels like we're injecting children with heroin -etc-
- they will become addicted and it'll prove harder (with time addicted) for the individual to be pulled out from the addiction.

So - yes - money is just a thing.

We're though looking at eliminating the *love/desire* of money as one notable example of the addictive mechanism; supporting money in any way gives the post-wise mind the feeling that it's addicting (causing to suffer) innocent children.

It's wrong.

-*-

[1] I'm pretty sure that you see the point - that the acquisition of wisdom is an event with a mechanism underlng it.
[2] That wisdom brings about a different world view.
[3] That this different world view is related to the mind becoming wholly logically internally consistent.
Note -> the graphite mind = Orwell's doublethink (thanks to Hadley Freeman from The Guardian for that connection)
[4] That once wisdom is acquired that the individual experiences a change in motivational systems.
[5] The transition can be considered a switch from material world desires to freedom from material world desire.

So - how does the individual acquire reward post-transition ?

Well - the Buddha seemed to be happy enough meditating all day - not talking.
We need to describe his state of mind.

How does meditation lead to reward ?
It feels like the mind is hitting an EEG frequency - maybe theta ?? (8 Hz) which resonates with some aspect of the world around
- where (from previously) - the principal node of the Schumann resonance is around 8 Hz.

Not absolutely sure where the feeling of 'reward' comes from (that's the precise mechanism) post-wisdom - but the transcendental state (transcending mind) (meditating) is all that the individual post-wisdom appears to need; using personal experience to concoct a rationale - could be an incorrect mechanism - that though doesn't mean that I'm describing the experiential feeling of the state inaccurately.

It's really important to note that the idea described here doesn't mean that when in this state (Buddhism's end to suffering with an elimination of the pleasure/pain paradigm)
- that pain caused by being savaged by a dentist doesn't hurt.

It does.

Tooth pain is particularly 'in your face'.

The solution to the problem of private healthcare is to use epidemiology to work out why we're having these problems and to prevent future recurrence of the problem by explaining why people eat too much sugar/blood glucose raising agents (self-medication,primitive reward system) and to accept that until people understand the problem and change their behaviour (can happen quickly)
- that we're going to need dentists only over the next few years -

- since problems will decrease ->- be eliminated as soon as the mechanism of prevention is understood and applied - that is - a hypoglycaemic or T2D diet)

- for some of us though it's too late.

It's difficult to call upon the goodwill of dentist, if the dentist is only doing their job for money (primitive reward system); perhaps social reward can be harnessed if the dentist realises that they're killing off the need for their discipline.
Perhaps it'll help if all people currently working for money open their eyes to the imminent collapse in fiat money.

The imminent collapse in money (the apocalypse) isn't occurring for any more significant reason than the global economic system only works when there's growth (where the global population is shortly to be thrown into reverse).

The population of Japan (the country leading the way) is set to reduce its population from 125 million now to 90 million in 2050.

The key primitive/material world paradigm of money can only work in a growing population (global) - since it requires population growth (growth in demand and hence growth in supply) to work; I'm simply suggesting that staring straight into the collapse of the key primitive reward system paradigm will awaken people who work for money to the imminent collapse in the motivational scheme which gets them into work each day
- will have them (hopefully the dentists) reaching around for an alternative reason to go into work -
will seize on this argument
- social reward - helping the species to become weaned off the need for dentists by supporting a system which enforces prevention of dental disease.

Of course - I'm only writing about the dentist because they're a particularly good example of people working for excessive amounts of money - well known so to do in the UK.
But the idea operates similarly with lawyers, medical doctors, vets, plumbers, builders ... ... any profession which works for money and not social reward

- ps only mentioning 'professions' which I have fallen victim to (their expression of original sin).

~PS~
Just thought - redemption is another synonym for Sanctification.

Saboit
01-06-12, 06:47 AM
It makes me wonder if you people are really adhd:)

SB_UK
01-06-12, 07:27 AM
Too many words!!
Just 1 sentence.

I'm trying to make the point that the label wisdom represents a defined event which we're meant to be striving towards making for our own benefit and for the benefit of society.

In post 2 there's an explanation in 1 sentence of why the transition is in our best interests.

People think that we're supposed to worship Jesus - we're not
- we're meant to emulate Jesus and undergo the resurrection (enlightenment) ourselves.

Religion is a D.I.Y. manual.

The point of this thread is to suggest that wisdom is a defined event and that before the event we cannot be labelled as in the state of wisdom and after the event we can be labelled by the state of wisdom.

Growing wiser is part of the pre-amble to becoming enforcedly wise
- but becoming wiser and carrying the label of in the state of wisdom are different states.

The unwise can become wiser.
At state wisdom - the individual cannot become wiser; they're fixed in the state of wisdom.

The individual in both states can continue to recruit knowledge.

Wisdom represents an orientation or relationship between knowledge stored within the mind.

The transition to wisdom isn't a sign that no more information can be recruited by the mind - it's a statement of the organization of the knowledge.

It's as if all knowledge is cross-referenced post-wisdom
- and so we're able to (just by using our minds) - identify inconsistencies.

It's impossible to do this using a 'graphite' mind
- because the planes slip slide generating so many 'holes' that the individual isn't driven mad by their existence.

The 'graphite' mind is a Belief System mind
- it isn't globally consistent - because it doesn't need to be.

That's why Orwell's 'doublethink' is a ubiquitous finding in politicians
- upon wisdom - 'doublethink' gives way to remarkable cognitive dissonance when required to accept conflicting (logically) viewpoints.

We're looking with wisdom at the transition from
Orwell's doublethink -> Psychology's cognitive dissonance.

Develop material world reward and we sink deeper into doublethink
- the individual (eg political tyrant) makes less and less logical sense.

Post-wisdom and mentally debilitating cognitive dissonance ours when we're forced to behave or think illogically to the tune of the then enforced moral (logical from the perspective of current and future generational happy survival) consistency of our minds.

SB_UK
01-06-12, 08:40 AM
so, this is, of course, predicated on my earlier post wherein i claimed understanding being accurate; i.e. Only if i do actually understand is this criticism applicable, much less useful. But going with thinking i do understand, something that either obscures what you're getting at, or perhaps just a further thing for you to consider whilst contemplating your idea is this:

I think you make a misstep in framing the acquisition of wisdom as a fixed point.

Now, perhaps that *is* what you'd intended, in which case i have other questions:d

but what i think you're talking about is something to which a "before" and "after" isn't applicable, or maybe those terms themselves need to be defined. What i mean is that i'm thinking you're talking about wisdom in a way that there wouldn't be a fixed point of acquisition. Dare i say, i find the post i've quoted below to be too linear an explanation to get at the dynamic process. Now i get that you're trying really hard to make your idea accessible and that oftentimes, i've observed in life, inclines us toward ....how can i say it? The discrete concept of transformation as having a before and an after.

But to look at your post below, here's the part where i struggle with your explanation:
so - bliss occurs with wisdom - when the individual overcomes the needs which prior to attaining wisdom, 'floats' the individual's boat

the transition (to wisdom) needs to occur before the individual is divorced from the need (the material world attachments).here's why:

I'm not sold on the possibility of the first statement, and i disagree with the second. Now, if wisdom is not as i was thinking you defined, disregard of course. However, i think what you've described is so much more process and something that you might recognize almost more in hindsight as having developed. Like, the basis for action was this orientation/template that i've repeatedly put into practice such that now it's a part of how i respond, or makes possible x variety of responses.

My concern is not solely because i was thinking along the lines of something that would be a process, a dynamic one of acquisition/implementation/adjustment to the point of opening up access to viewing things with that in mind and also creating habits of thought processes, but also because i think there's a component of "maintenance". Just as a habit or template can be "undone" or rendered obsolete, or a language you no longer speak can escape you if left unused, so, too, the process whereby one is enlightened seems to be subject to being "undone".

Finally, i really just think, based on experience/observation only, that the lines between necessary conditions and effects are blurred. In other words, what happens first? We overcome a need/desire or we develop the means to let it go? I say neither. We develop our overcoming as we develop the means to release. Like, there's this constant dialectic between the two that propels us forward and they only develop in conjunction with one another and as a result of each other such that in hindsight we may assign "before and after", but identifying the discrete moment creating before and after would be an impossibility since wisdom and release aren't static events, but practices.

Wow, and on that quasi hegelian note, i'll hit submit;)

So - looking at a specific transition (like a crystallization event) from the state of non-wisdom to wisdom
- where the transition reflects the organization of knowledge.
The same amount of knowledge is stored in the pre- and post- states
- it's just the method of organization which changes.

Kinda' like putting files scattered about on the floor into a filing cabinet (in alphabetical order); in the process eliminating identical duplicates and copies of the same document which are stored in differently labelled files
- with a pointer left (in the files that the duplicate information is removed from) - to the file in which the information has been retained.

So - connectivity leading to efficiency by re-use
- of logical models within the mind.

The change in topology is the specific transition to wisdom.

No additional knowledge is stored in the post-wisdom state mind, to the immediately precursor pre-wisdom mind
- all that changes is the relationship between the information.
Now, perhaps that *is* what you'd intended, in which case i have other questions:d
Does the section above the quote answer this question ?
... but what i think you're talking about is something to which a "before" and "after" isn't applicableIs applicable though isn't detectable without insight into one's motivations as the new structure of mind (more highly organized) beds in.
The 'before/after' idea is impeded by the event not being immediately obvious.

I think that the event might be associated with 'confusion' as the logical models melt and re-anneal, though it might also be associated with a 'gestalt' moment - a global 'gestalt' moment or really huge - aha!
I'm not too sure I've experienced gestalt -
- and have had so many periods of almighty 'confusion' that I can't remember one particular bout of confusion which stands out.

So - can I return to the idea of a before and an after (yes) - though where the transition isn't too obvious and is best observed by attempting to gain insight into a burgeoning loss of motivation in behaviours which once were motivational.

If we see this as a loss of the primitive reward system (the need for the dopaminergic system to be tickled by the factors which're mentioned above)
- then we see that there's a loss in the need for self-medication and also for medication.

That pathway (primitive reward system/dopaminergic circuit) no longer needs to be tickled, and as described above, we actively no longer want to tickle it (at least using the material world desire behaviours).

This was described by Stabile - 'as the epiphany event when the drugs no longer work'
- I think Stabile is describing either the individual or species-wide loss of the primitive reward system.

I'll find the link if you like - it's from 8 years ago, and easy to find because of his use of the term 'epiphany'.

I'm, generally, steering away from the idea that the species-wide loss of the primitive reward system might occur - though I can see how it might.
The discrete concept of transformation as having a before and an after. I think that emergent evolutionary events are defined as having a before and an after - for instance the speciation event which gave rise to man.
I think that emergence (a thing forming in which the whole is greater than the sum of the parts) requires a before and an after.

There was no Homo sapiens sapiens (mind) and then there was.
There was no crystal and then there was.

I think that this idea is referenced in 'quantum collapse'
- collapse results in the realm of possibilities collapsing into just one -
before there was no 'thing' and after collapse - the thing was brough into existence (an emergent event).

Emergent events are (I think) best characterized as before/after occurrences; when the new whole is formed - the component parts are subsumed into it and cease 'independent' activity.
A kinda' mechanism by which collaboration (of component parts) is forced.

It's possible to use this idea to see communication of a Theory of Everything as closing the loop hole left by the primitive reward system
- but I don't know how far to push this idea.

If we're all aware of the problems with material world desire (of their addictivity and inevitable effects of preventing us from attaining 'bliss')
- then will society change to stop dangling addicting substances (money,power) in front of people -
- or is there a more intimate connection (innate) which occurs with the opening and unravelling of a Theory of Everything - in current and future generations.

I'm not sure that it matters whether an individual is born with a destination in mind, or whether the individual is requried to be pointed in the right direction
- the same effects will be seen in both cases
- the individual arriving in the promised land

- and so I'll 'stop off' from considering this possibility (that ToE can close the loophole of original sin/the primitive reward system) for the time being
- it's not a necessary consideration and I just don't know.
so, too, the process whereby one is enlightened seems to be subject to being "undone".
I'm pretty sure that in emergent evolutionary events where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts
- that the whole cannot (then) be decomposed into the sum of the parts.
We're (I'm pretty sure - looking at the nature of the speciation of man) - looking at emergent structure formation completion.

So ... ... a very special case (to structures in phenomenological reality) of a transition which cannot be undone.

Each time emergence occurs - the new structure holds the component parts in place - the component parts are locked down - have lost their independence - have 'collapsed'
- though this shouldn't be considered an 'oh no - I'm constrained forever feeling' - it's more like an 'oh yes - I'm now free to wander about naked in the wide expanse of this newly defined internal reality'.
We develop our overcoming as we develop the means to release. This is exactly it.
One motivational system pushes the other one out.
Trying to suggest that we overcome material world desire behaviours because a new method of obtaining reward comes along
- one which is easy to acquire -
one which requires no other material world factors to acquire ... ...

the mind is enough.

Now what does it feel like to attempt formerly motivational material world desire activators ? afterwards
eg alcohol.
Completely overwhelmed.
In a bad way.
Too much stimulation ! Felt terrible - over sensitivity.

So - exactly as Peri states - yes - one motivational system shifting the other one out - where the shift may be one of massively increasing sensitivity to dopaminergic activation
- a massively increased sensitivity which can be handled using the senses, our CNS, our experiential state (meditation)
- one in which the effects of exogenous dopaminergic activation repel by overloading our now more delicate internal circuitry.

The transition to quality ?
Maybe.

Again - this is another idea which could well be true - I'm sticking though to the safe ground of simply suggesting that the specific transition event to wisdom (Buddha's enlightenment) brought with it an end in 1 motivational set (the material world desires) for another (sufficient activation of the circuit without exogenous factors).

So - from this post - is it definitely true that a Theory of Everything could close the 'origninal sin' loophole ? - Maybe (not sure) ... ...
- is it definitely true that the transition to wisdom results in an increased sensitivity to dopaminergic activation which we can handle without exogenous factors ? - Maybe (not sure).

Neither of those 2 considerations need be considered just yet though.

I'm absolutely sure (from personal experience) - that a transition occurs in motivational paradigm and that the new paradigm doesn't require anything of me (to obtain reward)
- whereas the previous paradigm was deeply demanding (of material world desire behaviours eg dexedrine).

The suffering (as Gautama Siddhartha tried many different methods) to enlightenment (as the Buddha appeared) transition is brought to mind.

Trying to point at Gautama's loss of suffering (pain/pleasure duality) upon enlightenment.

The shift in motivational sets is clear in Gautama and Buddha
- but is this specific event indicative of the transition from the pre-wise state to the state of wisdom.

In Hinduism - vedanta means 'the end of knowledge'
- I can see how the endpoint of knowledge would represent the birth of a completed structure of mind ... ...

I think that the transition to wisdom which occurs in this event - might better be characterized as a shift in motivational sets which are primary to the immediately secondary event of the transition to the state of wisdom.

I need to explain that again.

The key part of this idea is the individual entering the promised land (bliss).
The mind isn't really that important.
Completing the mind (attaining wisdom state) is useful - as it helps us to determine how to restructure society nicely
- however the 'selfish' element to the transition occurs from there being no further need for grasping behaviour (cranking the primitive reward system) for reward.

So - maybe the specific event of the transition to wisdom should be considered the transition of reward/motivational systems (as well as to the state of wisdom).
This last idea is simply pointing to the 'billing' which we give the idea.

Certainly in the resurrection and enlightenment - we're looking at re-birth (a motivational system change) and happy just to be (a motivational system change) (respectively) -
- and so continuing the trends of Buddhism and Christianity -
I'm more than happy to push the completion of mind to state wisdom event into the footnotes of the headline act 'A transitional event in motivational schemes from material world desires to reward from mere existence (the spirituality state)'.


Is that the point you were making ?

Really sorry - can't identify unambiguously the points which you're making - trying though :-)

pechemignonne
01-06-12, 08:45 AM
Isn't the term you are looking for sanctification, the ultimate moment when works + grace combined to equal a perfected being?
I assume that since you didn't delete the post, it is okay to respond to it even though you meant it as a PM?

Very good point, Blueranne. In terms of Christianity, sanctification is the penultimate human state. In Catholicism, this is the state achieved by saints. In many Protestant denominations, it is the state of being "saved".

In terms of Buddhism, it is the state of being a Bodhisattva.

But it seems that SB is arguing that one can go further, and emulate the gods themselves.

my concern is not solely because i was thinking along the lines of something that would be a process, a dynamic one of acquisition/implementation/adjustment to the point of opening up access to viewing things with that in mind and also creating habits of thought processes, but also because i think there's a component of "maintenance". just as a habit or template can be "undone" or rendered obsolete, or a language you no longer speak can escape you if left unused, so, too, the process whereby one is enlightened seems to be subject to being "undone".
But if you're talking about becoming Buddhas (and not just Bodhisattvas) and Christs (and not just saints), then it makes perfect sense.

A person seeking wisdom is a saint, a Bodhisattva, a seeker of enlightenment.

A person who has achieved the "state of wisdom" that SB is talking about no longer needs to seek, they just *are*.

It makes me wonder if you people are really adhd
I assure you, Saboit, this is what my ADHD looks like. I'm at work right now. Instead of entering time sheets, I'm writing about religion, a subject that I am very interested in. Your ADHD (and many other peoples') might hinder the ability to read and talk about academic junk. Mine hinders me in other ways.

Saboit
01-06-12, 08:45 AM
Holy crap I can't read this it's too muchI

SB_UK
01-06-12, 08:45 AM
I'm with Sarek. We learn and we gain knowledge and we become wise, but wisdom is something else again. For me, it's wise to go on a personal, spiritual journey in search of wisdom.

And I fully agree that it is almost impossible to define wisdom. Is it an inner knowing, an inner seeing, beyond this illusion that we call reality.

Paragraph 1 - definitely so.
Paragraph 2 - possible to define, quite difficult to know - possible to intuit by examining one's personal motivations.

Trying to make the point that the self-observed switch in an individual's motivations from classical material world desire behaviours to not
- is a sign of wisdom having (underneath the hood) having occurred.

So - absolute agreement if 'impossible to define wisdom' is being used in the 'for the individual to be sure' sense
- though I think that if 'impossible to define wisdom' is being used in the 'to define wisdom' linguistically
- then it can be defined.

Much like God.

Possible to define in words - Impossible to trap in a test tube.

SB_UK
01-06-12, 08:47 AM
In pain - off to get some clove oil from the chemists as a gum anaesthetic ... ...

- will continue in a few minutes.

pechemignonne
01-06-12, 09:10 AM
Holy crap I can't read this it's too muchI
I suggest that if you really want to read the thread, you can copy and paste it to a Word file, then break it into smaller paragraphs.

Then you can read one small section at a time.

That is what I did when I was in school and reading things that were really heavy. Also, I printed things out so I could read them on paper, that helps me a lot. Then I also underlined any words I didn't understand so that I could look them up, or if they were phrases or expressions I could ask someone what they meant.

If there's a paragraph in particular that you want explained, you can either post it here and ask for clarification, or PM me. I can't speak for other members, but I can tell you what I understand from what they say.

SB_UK
01-06-12, 10:50 AM
Ahh the meaning of life.

Enlightenment = wisdom gained through knowledge and experience. The inner peace achieved by seeing things for what they are and accepting how it is.

I think that would be a nice place to be.

Exactly - the meaning of life.

To attain enlightenment.

Such a really big deal.

The resurrection of Christ and the enlightenment of Buddha are 2 perspectives on the exact same event - to help explain a process which we're not blessed (at birth or as we grow) with any real insight into -

- because when it occurs - it occurs for the first time, there and then.

We're rather stumbling in the dark attempting to become enlightened/resurrected - and that's why it's necessary to revisit the process leading up to and the event itself using simple language which people (of today) can understand.

It's really just not that big a deal to understand - and even to experience.

The experience is akin to shedding a weight; the individual doesn't know that the weight is there until it's shed
- and so the experience isn't as one might think.

I don't know whether the subject can be made interesting enough to compete with a particularly rewarding computer game or film ... ...

- introducing this idea feels a bit like - 'well, I'm going to take away much of what you enjoy and leave nothing to replace it'
- it certainly feels that way, I'm certainly made to feel that way -

- it's hard for people to realise that 'much of what you enjoy' is simply an illusion

and life without 'much of what you enjoy' is so much better.

Liberty (freedom) is what is gained (the actual definition of liberty - the freedom which we all realise (under the hood) we seek)
- when we gain freedom from material world desire.

The freedom from material world desire gives rise to the individual entering the promised land - or Heaven.
Upon entering Heaven - the individual is free from the needs/love/desires (material world attachments only - money,power,sex,consumerism - the addictive 'oholic primitive reward system activating self-medication activities)

- and does not need anything else to 'float his/her boat'; becomes happy to live his/her life much as we imagine the Buddha to have lived his life - without the need for 'stimulation' - gaining all he needed from a transcendental meditative state of mind.

I have to admit I'd like to be able to transcend dental pain !!
Healthcare providers have to realise that as long as they work for money - they're no use to the patient.

-*-

I don't know - the idea is a big deal - though it feels like it's being greeted by apathy - as if boring - as if 'well suppose it's true - so what ? So I won't be able to enjoy the things which make life bearable now! Yeah and I really want to pay attention to that idea.'

Not sure how to proceed - the single most important event which man needs to make can't compete with the material world desires which the event seeks to free us from the need for; I have no mechanism for 'jazzing' up this idea - it's just a plain and simple method for rendering us sufficiently happy (from pleasure/pain ->to-> bliss).

SB_UK
01-06-12, 11:11 AM
It makes me wonder if you people are really adhd:)

ADHD has hyperfocus as a component.
We're able to focus intensely (actually easily) as long as our mind lets us (is interested in what we're concentrating on).

My mind tells me that there's only 1 idea worth spending some time exploring and communicating (see post 1); consequently, I can concentrate.

This one idea however seems to not want to be understood.

The idea again - there's a specific event or transition which can occur which results in an actual motivational shift; that event is described in Christianity as the resurrection and in Buddhism by enlightenment.

Resurrection is a good term to use - because it's as if we die and then are re-born - such is the importance of the motivational drive to the self definition of the person.

It's like we're driving from left to right and then we're driving from right to left
- everything we know as we look out the window of our car is defined by our motivational drive (which path down the street we've elected to take).

Enlightenment is a good term to use - because it's as if we are lightened (shed a load or burden) (see post above which defines the process as akin to shedding a load which we had no idea, up until shedding - that we were supporting).

SB_UK
01-06-12, 11:45 AM
Holy crap I can't read this it's too muchI

The resurrection of Christ and The enlightenment of the Buddha reference a fixed event, which *when emulated* by the individual - results in the individual attaining a 'blissful' mental state in which the individual is no longer drawn to the 'self-medication' list of {behaviours, drugs, chemicals -etc-} which activate the dopaminergic reward system.

The transition brings about freedom from the 'need for speed'.

We're escaping the need for dexedrine - but that, of course isn't why we're doing it - we're doing it for an other reason which actually results in us escaping the need for all of those behaviours which activate the exact same neural pathway which dexedrine activates.
The self-medication debilitating set of behaviours which gain their attraction to us, through activating the central dopaminergic circuit like dexedrine.

There's a bewildering number of stimulating behaviours/chemicals which operate through the exact same mechanism as dexedrine.

It's possible - given my experience of a loss in interest in music/imagery - as distracting / over-stimulating
- that these also operate (reward) like dexedrine through the central dopaminergic system.

I could be wrong in that last statement - it seems harsh !

For sure - cannot watch television, cannot play any computer game
- 'too much information' - overstimulating - disturbing.

Saboit
01-06-12, 12:27 PM
I am not sure, I have never hyperfocused to such an extent, I mean probably you have mild ADHD symptoms SB.

SB_UK
01-06-12, 12:35 PM
I am not sure, I have never hyperfocused to such an extent, I mean probably you have mild ADHD symptoms SB.

Honestly - it's as simple as finding a subject which your mind is interested in exploring.

I can't concentrate on a single other thing - not computer games, not movies ... ... would rather read a 1 minute IMDB synopsis or watch a 3 minute youtube gameplay excerpt to get the jist of a movie or game - rather than spend a couple of hours watching a film - or however long it takes to complete a game, these days.

The ADHD mind dictates its own agenda.

MeADD823 describes this as the ADHD mind having a mind of its own.

The mind of our own over-rules the applications which society teaches us we should apply our mind to.

We can't comply to procedures which - (and there's always a reason) - we're just not interested in.

mild ADHD ?
raging ADHD.

It's just that it doesn't come out (ADHD doesn't impede us) if we're running in the direction which our mind wants.

-*-

Right now - I'm trying to make the point that the resurrection/enlightenment (Christianity,Buddhism) event is meant to be imitated (Augustine, Kempis); that and absolutely strictly - Jesus and the Buddha were not meant to be worshipped.

As stated in 'The Life of Brian' - "I have come here to push you to think for yourselves".
The crowd, as we all know, though, were having 'none' of it ... ...
So what should we do now then ?

SB_UK
01-06-12, 12:47 PM
I don't really know what more to add.

I can write up hundreds and hundreds of pages on this subject by tomorrow morning if it'd help
- but there won't be any point unless there's a point.

The goal of this thread is to point to an event which we're meant to achieve in our lives in order to live a happy life.
As such - we're not actually living as human beings until that event is passed.

It's impossible to be human until we've thrown off the primitive reward system.

Just seen the exact same point made by St. Augustine (on wikiP).

Saint Augustine viewed the imitation of Christ as the fundamental purpose of Christian life, and as a remedy for the imitation of the sins of Adam.Original sin = the primitive reward system.

The point is - is that 'we burn in the fires of Hell' unless we overcome original sin
- where 'burn in the fires of Hell' should be seen in the same way as the greed of Gollum sending him to his fiery grave - in his quest to rescue the ring.

There is no controlling the primitive reward system - it's a beast which operates us (the definition of a motivation system) until we discard it -
- exactly as Frodo did - if (admittedly) kinda' reluctantly
- pointing us back to the difficulty in making an idea heard which seems as though it's going to make life dramatically less fun for the unlucky transition (to wisdom) victim (from a post above) post-transition.

That's just not it at all - though it may seem like it is.

The drink which we so enjoy is poison.

The ring caused the transition from Smeagol to Gollum - as if intoxicated (under the influence) of a poisonous (self-defeating) addiction.

Just reading about the new drug craze of 'krokodil' - we can see the force of the primitive reward system (human compulsion to the detriment of the organism) - when we see people injecting up into bodies where such is the decay to the individual that their bones can be fully exposed, from decay to the surrounding flesh around.
The motivation to behave in this way comes from the primitive reward system; it's just that powerful and cannot be controlled.

When overcome (post transition to wisdom) - as I've tried to suggest above - these addicting substances become unattractive (horribly over stimulating ?) and so the individual can't get close to addiction.
The attraction (exogenous addictive molecule/behaviour) can't get a firm grip on us; won't activate our reward system in a manner which produces any sense of pleasure.

We've overcome the pleasure/pain duality and entered a new paradigm (the promised land within) where 'bliss' is ours from simple existence in a particular state of mind (transcendental meditation - though it's not as hard as the big words sound) ... ...
it's effortless - the mind does the 'work' (the wrong word) for you.

There's a downside though - referencing the Kempis quote above - the loss of that motivational system takes away pretty much all of the motivation which is required to live a standard life in current Western society -
we're pushed into happy reclusion where a model for the life which attracts 'd be the Mount Athos community with pair-bonded couple allowed; separation isn't really an option.

Holy matrimony has a meaning - has a mechanism which 'binds' pair bonders together - unsurprising given this type of relationship's oft-occurrence in nature eg the meadow vs. prairie vole.

SB_UK
01-06-12, 02:07 PM
... and then for some formal statement that sugar/hyperglycaemic agents attract us by working through the exact same pathway as original sin.The findings of a series of studies directed by Dr. Bart Hobel of Princeton Univsersity found that the rats they studied exhibited all of the components of addiction in response to sugar: increased intake (binging), cravings, and relapse. These are not only behavioral observations, but actual changes in the brains of the rats, both in terms of neurotransmitter release (specifically, dopamine, which has been found to be a factor in other addictions), and an actual change in the structure of some of the brain receptors. http://lowcarbdiets.about.com/b/2009/02/23/is-sugar-addictive.htm

The attraction for sugar and shiny electronic gadgets is lost too
- at the transition to the defined state of wisdom.

SB_UK
01-06-12, 02:11 PM
... ... foods which aren't sweet but break down rapidly into sugars in our bodies, like bread. When corresponding with Dr. Hobel regarding this, he mentioned that [B]this would be worthy of study, but that, as always, funding is an issue. Anyone know any sources for $20,000 to study this?

This would be worthy of study because it's not just sugar but blood glucose level (elevation of) which activates the primitive reward system.

Blood sugar rush -> pleasure
Reactive hypoglycaemia to the hyperglycaemic spike of 'pleasure' -> pain

Transcend the pleasure/pain duality with the transition to wisdom.

The pleasure/pain principle operates principally through blood glucose sensing
- unsurprising that an essential pathway for organism survival was to prove to be the horse upon which all primitive reward activating molecules/behaviours gained purchase.

The goal's to get over the horse and not to sit proudly astride it.

Where getting over the horse should be taken to mean adopting a diet which a T2Diabetic can eat without problem -
allowing the body to synthesize blood glucose as it will -

- that is - not flipping our lid and pouring hyperglycaemia into our blood system.

SB_UK
01-06-12, 02:29 PM
I can't find any questions which remain in need of answering.

There are a few questions which I've laced throughout this thread which I'm not absolutely sure of the answer to - though the big questions which tie together an understanding of reality appear to have been answered to the satisfaction of my mind.

Would quite like to know whether the transition to wisdom is possible in the non pair-bonded state ? (the monk, for instance)

SB_UK
01-06-12, 02:59 PM
I have no model for enlightenment without pair-bond formation.

It's an evolutionary 'pat on the back' using lazy English.

The pair-bonded state is evolution's way of 'his will be done'
- continued evolution.
Of ensuring that evolution keeps on going ... ... ...

Of preventing men and women from segregating into all male and all female monasteries and convents and attaining the evolutionary pat on the back
- from not actually ensuring that evolution continues
- from living non pair-bonded/ completely celibate lives.

Darn
- the monastery life (non pair-bonded state) consigns the adherent to a life apart from God.

I wasn't expecting that idea to pop out.

That is some sacrifice - and I'm not sure that people'll be able to comprehend the magnitude of the sacrifice which they've made.

Why it's some sacrifice can be explained (if required).

Saboit
01-06-12, 03:11 PM
Okay so I tried reading ith again, are you saying wisdom is our capacity to forgo the materialistic world?
And what are those neurological changes you are talking about.

SB_UK
01-06-12, 05:06 PM
Okay so I tried reading ith again, are you saying wisdom is our capacity to forgo the materialistic world?
And what are those neurological changes you are talking about.
[1]
No - though I'm not too sure what you mean by the phrase.
We need a material world to survive on.

[2]
A freedom from the love/desire pathway referenced by the well known phrase - the love/desire of money is the root of all evil.

That love/desire is represented by a neural pathway (naturally - it has to be).

This pathway can be bypassed in the sense that this pathway can be made to no longer lead to the pleasant sense of reward which the pathway leads to us feeling, before the pathway is transcended.

Thereby by deactivating the control which this specific love/desire pathway has over us, we pull the roots of capacity for evil out from within our minds.

-*-

The love/desire [neural pathway] of money is the root of all evil.
Lose that specific love/desire [neural pathway] and one loses the root of all evil.

Note that it's not just a neural pathway which encodes the love/desire of money - but one of the love/desires it encodes - is the love/desire of money.

The love/desire neural pathway in this sense (to money) is used in posts on this thread by the term - "the primitive reward system" neural pathway.

Don't make the idea more complicated than the 2 sentences above; it's just that easy.

SB_UK
01-06-12, 05:48 PM
Still trying and *failing* to find any important unanswered questions.

What happens when we physically die ?
I have an answer - but it's really not important.
Our goal is to live (to undergo re-birth) and not to try and exist (the life before the transition to wisdom) for as long as possible by virtue of cosmetic surgery.

Are we going to colonise neighbouring planets (Stephen Hawking) ?
The rate of human population growth is tumbling - the human population will begin shrinking in the not too distant future
- so no - we're not on an exponential growth curve requiring additional planets to feed our need to procreate.
But once again - the answer to this question is - it doesn't really matter.

If we discover a way to colonise other planets in the far distant future - then maybe some people'll want to head off and live in a Space 1999 bunker on the planet
- though whyever they'd want to do that is beyond me
- when this planet can be as wonderful as we like - and by virtue of clever ecologically sound electronic technology - can be anything we want it to be.

Which isn't to suggest that we'll want anything from electronic technology after undergoing the transition.

After the transition - the individual just doesn't need anything to 'float' his/her boat.

-*-

I could just keep on scouring mindspace for big questions -
but the answer will be the same in all cases.

It doesn't matter.

All that matters is that people understand how to undergo the resurrection/enlightenment
- a state of mind which thereafter knows the answer to the questions which have vexxed the individual up until then
- and a state which carries with it freedom from the need for exogenous/external factors to 'float our boat'
- we're happy just to be

- exactly as we imagine the Buddha to be like post-enlightenment event

- with no further need to be anywhere other than wherever he is
- doing nothing particularly.

SB_UK
01-07-12, 05:22 AM
Does anybody understand why I'm stating that there is only 1 simple idea which all human beings must understand ?

Here's a simpler version (using colour) of the idea from the post above.

Well known phrase
A phrase which everybody knows = The love/desire of money is the root of all evil.

LOSE The love/desire [neural pathway] of money is..... The root of all evil.
LOSE The love/desire [neural pathway] of money is..... The root of all evil.
LOSE The love/desire [neural pathway] of money LOSE The root of all evil.

LOSE The love/desire [neural pathway] of money LOSE The root of all evil.

-*-

Does this sentence make sense to anybody ?

LOSE The love/desire [neural pathway] of money LOSE The root of all evil.

note - this is (as is every post I've written in this thread) - a re-wording of the first line from post 1
Over the course of my 20,000 posts on-line, I have only found 1 point which needs to be made.

Why and How does a/the individual attain the defined state of wisdom ?
Explanation

GAIN the defined state of wisdom = LOSE The love/desire [neural pathway] of money = LOSE The root of all evil.

I don't understand why people are able to 'understand' really hard things like the mathematics which people tell us is complicated, and this simplest of sentences
- which most people have used (themselves) various times throughout their lives
can not be admitted to be understood.

Is there any other question which exists (absolutely any other question which exists) which people need an answer to before they'll admit to understanding this idea ?

Saboit
01-07-12, 05:27 AM
I don't care much about money..

I think I am wisdomed.

Blueranne
01-07-12, 05:31 AM
SB_UK, you understand this subject on a level which no one else is even close to being, or who may not want to even go there. When I read your post in this thread it is information overload. I can't say that I am with you 100%, but I do see some truth and value to what you are sharing. I just think that people learn these types of things in a "line upon line" type of way.

SB_UK
01-07-12, 05:35 AM
This guy understands - but he's 2000 years long gone.

Saint Augustine viewed the imitation of Christ as the fundamental purpose of Christian life, and as a remedy for the imitation of the sins of Adam.

If he understands, then somebody should be able to understand some 2000 years and lots ands lots of understanding later.

Blueranne
01-07-12, 05:37 AM
This guy understands - but he's 2000 years long gone.



If he understands, then somebody should be able to understand some 2000 years and lots ands lots of understanding later.

You understand. :)

SB_UK
01-07-12, 05:52 AM
You understand. :)

But he understood and 2000 years later - there are no consequences to him having reached an understanding.

I mean - it's pretty much as if he needn't have bothered.

SB_UK
01-07-12, 05:57 AM
I want

- money
- babes
- cars
- food
- booze

I think I am un-wisdomed

But the point is that we're all unwisdomed until we become wisdomed.

The point is that we need to know why we want to become wisdomed and how to become wisdomed (that is - if we can be taught that it's a good thing to be wisdomed).

The points about becoming 'wisdomed as unappealing' (because it's almost as if we're suggesting that all of the 'things' people enjoy will become unappealing) leaves behind a sense - when expressed of - 'well what would we do with ourselves without the desire for the only things which keep us going in life ?'

Thing is - is that it's impossible to explain why it's better to be freed from the need to activate that pathway (the one which is responsible for the love/desire of money).

That pathway is a form of imprisonment.
The joy we experience when we tickle the primitive reward system (money,power,sex) is akin to a 10 minute stroll in the yard outside of our cell
- the rest of the time (23 hours and 50 minutes) we're 'holed' up in a cell.

Blueranne
01-07-12, 06:01 AM
But he understood and 2000 years later - there are no consequences to him having reached an understanding.

I mean - it's pretty much as if he needn't have bothered.

You are addressing a rather small groop of people. Your frustration is tainting your message. I would suggest more patience, at least here on the forums. Can you not have a discussion with the dentist and address your concerns with him? Bring attention to the scandal in other ways also like, word of mouth to friends and family, write the local news paper, file a complaint with the Better Buisness Bereau...

SB_UK
01-07-12, 06:27 AM
You are addressing a rather small groop of people. Your frustration is tainting your message. I would suggest more patience, at least here on the forums.
But I think that I could make an 8 year old understand this idea in less than 1 minute - I'm about to try and I'll describe what happens.

I need to understand why nobody is able to simply state - yes I understand this one idea and if this one idea is right (which it appears to be) - then we'll have to change society in a radical fashion
- most notably including the end of fiat money, end of individual ownership of property (land, house) and embrace disease prevention (not treatment).

That is - for people to work for a sense of social reward (or not at all) and not for selfish reward (money) - to have access/use of a house/land and not personal ownership (principle of Common Wealth) and finally to prevent disease - because the Theory of Emergence states that when the component parts of an emergent system (us) begin to fall apart
- we cannot put them back together.

We've a world in which we're trying to fix car crashes with sticky tape - the only solution to the problem is to prevent the car from crashing in the first place - by switching people over to ultra-safe public transport - trains etc - travelling at whichever speed or by whichever technology that can be guaranteed as safe ~etc~

Can you not have a discussion with the dentist and address your concerns with him? Bring attention to the scandal in other ways also like, word of mouth to friends and family, write the local news paper, file a complaint with the Better Buisness Bereau...None of that will work; I can explain in great detail why none of that will work.
The alcoholic won't give up alcohol if they're told that alcohol is provably bad for them.

Examples (just the first 6 problems which come to mind)

[1] I've the problem of proof - they've changed the notes to hide what was said at first appointment (when they chanced their hand).
[2] I've only covertly recorded appointments 2 + 3 - by which time, they've changed their stories - I have though recorded the change in mind.
[3] Clinical judgement allows them to hide behind - "well, I thought it was for the best".
[4] Make a stink - and future dentists will 'go after' you (we've had many problems with vets in the UK and France - in France, on one particular occasion, my wife's father didn't want to take it any further in case the vet harmed his dog (maliciously, intentionally) in the future through us making an official complaint about the treatment we've had with our dog
- the vet knew of the relationship between him and us.
[5] In the case of lawyers (definitely) - dentists also - you won't find one to go against another
- it's a club where they protect their own; it's 'them against us' - I seem to remember this being mentioned on one of the TED talks (will find the talk if I can - by English philosopher - ?? Alain de Botton ?? - on the subject of career allegiance on psyche)
[6] They're ALL at it - discovered through reading comments such as the ones used on site yesterday - and I repeat the I've had problems with the last 6 dentists I've had (a mix of NHS and private).
For balance - I think that 2 of the last 8 I've seen have been honest/competent.

Do I need to go on ?

I don't want to appear rude - but don't you think that your comments are naive ?

Private (maybe any - from my experience) healthcare (of humans and animals) provision is completely open to abuse - because when money is exchanged - and people work for money - the private healthcare worker will always go for the procedure which pays most.
That's kinda' the point of this thread.

The sad part is that the 'hard done by' public sector dentist already earns 4 or 5 times more than the average
- but that's just not enough

... ... it'$ never enough -<- that's the point of this thread.

To kill off the drive so that we're free to live socially.

Blueranne
01-07-12, 06:33 AM
I am just getting ready to sign off, but I will read and reply in a few hours.

I really admire your passion here. :)

SB_UK
01-07-12, 08:23 AM
I am just getting ready to sign off, but I will read and reply in a few hours.

I really admire your passion here. :)

I can continue describing the idea
- but there isn't any point in me continuing to describe the idea.

I need to work out, by asking other people, and relying on them providing an honest answer of what they think, of how they understand this idea ... ... ...

- but there appears to be a block which I'm absolutely positive has been artificially placed on people not to reply -
- it's a bit like the technique we're taught in counselling of reflecting questions back with questions and not answers -

eg 'The sky is blue'
'Do you think the sky is blue ?'

'Yes - I think the sky is blue, don't you ?'
'What kind of blue?'

'Oxford Blue'
'Not Cambridge Blue ?'

'Actually midway in between Oxford and Cambridge blue, how did you know ?'
'etc etc etc'

It's a useful technique to explore a mind - when the mind still has space for exploration.

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS5Ugc269CvC0F9Q88ZtzC4YAsQXvqaU 2aoV1asqslB_56yy2ZK8Xw9eUX5

So frustrated because I've just checked and an 8 year old child can understand all that I need for people to understand
- and yet ADDers - who should be ***well*** ahead of me! are playing some sort of game.

It's important to know when there's no further for us to travel, because it's at that point that the game ends.

I've still a couple of questions like
'Do shutters help to protect heat loss from a house ?' [WE'RE FREEZING]
and
'Is it relatively simple to clean one's own chimney with minimal specialist equipment ?' [WE'RE FREEZING]

- but they're really simple questions to answer.

Any remaining questions are really too trivial to even bothering with here:

'Is it possible to buy some shoes for walking, where the sole can be replaced by the owner without any specialist equipment ?' [MY SHOES WEAR OUT TOO QUICKLY]

'Is it possible to remove the gears on a bike so that it's made up of parts which any idiot can service without any specialist equipment ?' [THE GEARS ON MY BIKE SLIP]

... ... etc ... ...

I'm pretty sure I can find the answers on the Internet some place - and so ... ...

There isn't any further for us to go - I can't find any significant questions which need answering -

- each time I hear somebody say anything (on Radio 4) or write anything down (the 3 free broadsheet newspaper sites)
- I know the solution to problems raised -

- because every single question comes back to an answer which is provided through or by virtue of some aspect to the transition to wisdom.

Optimal Spiritual health.
Optimal Physical health.
Optimal Mental health.
Optimal Environmental health.
Optimal Animal health.
~etc~ ~etc~ ~etc~

Simply by defining the physiological life-cycle of the emergent structure (or emergent property) and sticking to it.
Simply - we've a mind - which is a structure which requires us to do what's most logical for survival of the structure (the mind is a structure which is shared by all members of the species) -
- the mind (the emergent property of the mind) is to do what's most rational for current and future generations.

Yes - this requires a little knowledge - but not that much actually - and mostly requires wisdom (completion of the structure) and the application of the structure (mind attribute wisdom) in re-shaping society (globally).

The simple truth is that we 'do it to ourselves' (each and every problem we report) and we can stop doing it to our selves by deactivating the drive which pushes us to act in such an anti-best interests of individual/society manner.

The drive is deactivated by making/completing the transition to wisdom
- where an individual's motivational system changes in its entirety
- so large a transition that it is has been termed the 'resurrection' by some, less dramatically - as the enlightenment by others.

Is it a big deal ?

Well - since it appears that it's not really that obvious when it happens - that is - that no t-shirt magically appears bearing the words 'I'm enlightened' - that it's, at least by one defintiion, not a big deal.

I don't know if people consider it a big deal -
Do people think that the resurrection of Christ was a big deal ?
Do people think that the enlightenment of Siddhartha was a big deal ?

Possibly unfair questions if people don't realise that these events were transitions which just normal human beings experienced ... ... and which (explaining why these stories were written down, passed around and were made to become quite popular)
- are meant to be emulated (copied).

- it's (the transition's) certainly a pre-requisite for species survival -
though it's hardly an event which competes with eg shooting up some drug in terms of absolute magnitude of experience experienced.

I guess there's a large jolt when somebody injects drugs
- whereas I'm suggesting that (and I could be wrong) - that the transition to wisdom isn't so 'clear cut' ?

I think I'm suggesting that the transition to wisdom can only be inferred by examining the nature of one's motivations -
see what once was motivational (the primitive reward desires) impossibly unrewarding .... ...

- though the possibility exists that I've gotten the nature of the transition wrong (a moment of confusion ? a 'gestalt') -
- I absolutely do know that the natural motivational shift (we can't do anything about motivational shifts - motivational shifts can (in stark contrast) do 'everything' about us) is the switch away from drugs/molecules/behaviours which motivate by operating through the dopaminergic system -
through giving us - when attempted - the feelings of over-stimulation.

Unpleasant over-stimulation - we leave the 'original sin' behaviours (factors which activate the primitive reward system) well alone.

They're no longer nice (rewarding).

SB_UK
01-07-12, 09:02 AM
God's an infinitely extending collection of little balls - all of which are rotating - but each of which is at different points in their cycle of rotation.
If we poke the soup with energy (Big Bang) - then that energy drives the balls to associate (evolve) - generating *structures* by a fixed evolutionary expansion
- and the world of structures (evolving) is the world (Universe) in which we inhabit.

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UNSTRUCTURE (ETERNALLY ROTATING,INFINITELY EXTENDING,UNSYNCHRONIZED)

->-

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STRUCTURE

->-

{}{}{/}{\}{}{}{}{}{}
{}{}{}{}{}{/}{/}{\}{\}
{}{}{}{}{}{/}{/}{\}{\}

->-

TO OUR PERSPECTIVE

/\
......//\\

NO APPARENT CONNECTION SINCE GOD IS UNKNOWABLE TO OUR PHENOMENOLOGICAL DUALISTIC PERSPECTIVE.

We live in the dualistic world of /|\ whereas God lies out of frame |.

We can see these 3 frames in the symbol om (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Om).
>>\
)
>)
)

We live in duality- the 2 keys are blue and pink
Symbol of the pope
(http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=pope+arms&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=M0IIT9m7JIbsOf6t_OUG&biw=1366&bih=634&sei=NkIIT8nCKoftOfzIsaUB)The two keys shown on all of these images (http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=pope+arms&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=M0IIT9m7JIbsOf6t_OUG&biw=1366&bih=634&sei=NkIIT8nCKoftOfzIsaUB)

Reality exists in trinity - the third key represents grey
Symbol of money, pawn brokers
The three keys are shown on all of these images (http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=pope+arms&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=M0IIT9m7JIbsOf6t_OUG&biw=1366&bih=634&sei=NkIIT8nCKoftOfzIsaUB#um=1&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB%3Aofficial&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=ubs&pbx=1&oq=ubs&aq=f&aqi=g10&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=44427l44932l0l45296l3l3l0l0l0l0l147l418l0.3 l3l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=ffe7aebedfb74be0&biw=1366&bih=634)

-*-

THE PHENOMENOLOGICAL UNIVERSE IS BUILT ON LOVE FROM THE GROUND UP - THE ASSOCIATION (AND EXPANSION THROUGH) BETWEEN BLUE + PINK
- THE EVOLUTIONARY EXPANSION.

Evolution occurs because energy must be contained by the fundamental substrate by evolutionary expansion (it has no choice - a water ripples when a stone is thrown in); the expansion has one commonality - combination (fixed hybridization) of male and female archetypes through God (see UBS symbol) -
- from the ground up

- these (male and female archetypes) representing the 2 waves of the standing wave matrix.

{}{}
{}{}

{}{/}
{}{}

{/}{\}
{}{}

{}{}{/\} -<- structure formed - back to the garden - hybridization between male/female leads to structure in resonant synchrony with the 'native' state of The Matrix (God).

{} and {/\} resonate <- male archetype forms because sufficient energy / female archetype forms if sufficient energy / female archetype gives birth / male-female bond giving rise to single structure which resonates with the structure (unknowable,God) from which we're composed.
An underlying out of frame Planck length standing wave matrix which evolves 'predictably' (to a pattern) to 'dissipate' energy.

Evolution guided by 'God'.
{} -> {/\} -> {//\\} -> {///\\\} -> {///\\\\}

As each structure forms (the brackets close around male-female archetype) - emergence occurs - the structure cannot be broken.

We don't need to consider the sub-atomic make-up of our hands to type
- that layer of abstraction is pushed past when another 'wraps' it.

Chemistry wraps Physics etc
- quark knowledge isn't required to understand acid + base -> salt + water.

SB_UK
01-07-12, 09:30 AM
But why bother with complex stuff like God ? Just yet ... ... ...

The idea which my 8 year old understands is enough.

There's no room for a solution (the question which the 8 year old couldn't answer) until the individual sees there's a problem (the 3 questions which the 8 year old can answer).

Consider it a request for 'support' from an ADDer on a support forum for ADDers ?

SB_UK
01-07-12, 10:21 AM
How would we do it ?
{{{PAUSE}}}
'don't know'


This thread explains how.

That's all.

I'm suggesting that the mechanism 'how' is the only 1 idea which exists which people need to grasp.

Not history, not maths, not how to sew, not where you'll find the light switch to your front room -

- nothing matters other than an understanding of why the transition to wisdom is essential -

- because everything we do - is dependent on the understanding which is thereby (post-transition) gained.

It's like wisdom is a computer simulation of life without any bugs in the code.
Without the wisdom 'code' - the simulation (human life) will 'crash'.

It's very easy to knock together some code, even quite complex code - though only the wisdom code (because it's logically consistent with current and future generation happy survival) is of use to us.

We're wasting our time running any program which isn't based on wisdom 'code' - where wisdom code is simply a logically consistent set of routines required for happy current and future generational survival

- and so can be questioned, when worked out -

- and when questioned - will deliver answers *always* which make sense - even if those answers are we can't attempt this procedure because we don't know for sure what the consequences'll be ... ...

SB_UK
01-07-12, 10:43 AM
As the Buddha (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/waytoend.html) (eg the link) stated and exactly as St. Augustine stated (eg in the thread above)

- the purpose of life is to put an end to suffering (~aka~ overcoming original sin).

This occurs following the transition to wisdom.

It's the only idea of importance.

It's the centre-piece of Buddhism and Christianity (enlightenment and resurrection)
- both of which are developments from earlier religions which have less of a focus on just 1 person (Hinduism and Judaism)
- though, the latter two of which also (unsurprisingly - because it's the only idea we need to understand)

- describing the process.

So - we've a very simple story which people haven't been able to understand, despite it being re-told time after time after time
- and we've a synopsis in 4 lines which my 8 year old basically understands

- and yet which nobody is able to acknowledge.

-*-

Would one expect an individual to be frustrated if every time he spoke
- absolutely every person he encountered replied with a nonsensical response ?

Nice day today ?
'flurb'

Shall I go out?
'Bllep'

It's deeply frustrating.
I'm not sure that any human being can support this level of abuse.

Is it some sort of game ?

My comments have become so self-evident now, that I feel as though I'm writing at so low a level as to be considered deeply patronising to the rest of the forum.

SB_UK
01-07-12, 11:02 AM
You see money isn't what it seems - to support money is to support the 'love/desire' which keeps it in place.

To support that 'love/desire' is to support the motivation which causes people harm by self-inflicted self-medication including the toxic set of cigarettes, alcohol, illicit drugs -etc-

- by supporting money (the construct's use in society) - the individual is keeping in place the motivation (love/desire for other activators of the pathway) which other people require (which drives people) to abuse with chemicals which activate that exact same neural pathway.

Keeping *money* alive (therefore the love/desire of money in others)
- keeps all of those behaviours which activate that neural pathway alive (alcohol, cigarettes,illicit drugs)

- the individual who condones money therefore is culpable for the broken lives and premature deaths of all people who fall victim to the pathway, which they're forced to maintain, due to inability to discard, because of social factors (social convention).

You can't make the transition to wisdom if you're feeding greed; by feeding greed this means - ramping up activation of the primitive reward system, instead of moving towards discarding it.

So - here's an image - one group of people are suggesting that we all eat 1 green ball a day. There are only enough green balls for 10% of the population.
There're enough yellow balls for everybody to have 1 per day (1 ball a day of any colour is enough to survive)
- the problem is that the 10% advocating green balls have laws in place which prohibit any other form of colour of ball ingestion.

Why ?

Because they like the position in the hierarchy - of being begged to, their toilets cleaned, their fields tended, their cars driven
- by the 90% who require the scraps of the 10%'s green balls to survive.

Note - out-competing other people and climbing the people hierarchy (power) activates the primitive reward system.

The 10% pay for the people with guns and so the 90% are unable to object using rational debate.

The 10% want to maintain inequality - where's the room for rational debate ?

Intentionally referencing back to the comment made on how to complain about private dentists making a killing -
- they're in it for the money
ONLY FOR THE MONEY
- they're far too fast, and know the loopholes within which they must hide in order not to be found out.

The silly sorts of comments that the materialist minority (consider in the same way as an alcoholic) come up with
->-
'If you want a fairer society - then you want communism - and you know how that turned out !'

SB_UK
01-07-12, 11:07 AM
OMG It even states it in the link!!
The Noble Eightfold Path
The Way to the End of Suffering


stage VIII. The Development of Wisdom (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/waytoend.html#ch8)

APSJ
01-24-12, 01:08 AM
On review, it was determined that this thread contained a great deal of debate of the OP which was not suitable to this section of the forum.

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As a reminder, the relevant guidelines for this section are as follows:


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Our goal is to offer a safe, supportive atmosphere for all members. We are a diverse group, coming from many different cultures, religions and backgrounds. It is important for us to remember and respect that. Therefore the following guidelines apply:

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SB_UK
01-24-12, 10:11 AM
If we look at this sentence.
I am all for the idea.
And I think you are right.
My Question is what is the language of collaboration?
Your quote is written in English.
Not all people speak English.
And they have their own language.
Opinion?

So:

Hasn't the United Nations nailed this problem ?
~s (http://www.unog.ch/80256EE60057CB67/%28httpPages%29/6198E1266DB7B16480256EF80049A2F2?OpenDocument)~ The Languages Service comprises one translation section for each of the six official United Nations languages (Arabic, Chinese, English, French, Russian and Spanish)....the 160 translators on the permanent staff of the Languages Service translate some 50 million words a year.Just 160 people to deliver 50 million words !!!
Who wants 50 million words ?
Wayyyyyy toooo much !

Alternatively:

Simple {{{whatever}}} because:

google translate english -> spanish

Si nos fijamos en esta frase.
Yo estoy a favor de la idea.
Y creo que tienes razón.
Mi pregunta es ¿cuál es el lenguaje de la colaboración?
Su presupuesto está escrito en Inglés.
No todas las personas hablan Inglés.
Y tienen su propio idioma.
Opinión?

and back again spanish -> english in blue

If you look at this sentence.
If we look at this sentence.

I am in favor of the idea.
I am all for the idea.

And I think you're right.
And I think you are right.

My question is what is the language of collaboration?
My Question is what is the language of collaboration?

Its budget is written in English.
Your quote is written in English.

Not everyone speaks English.
Not all people speak English.

And they have their own language.
And they have their own language.

Opinion?
Opinion?

-*-

Simply does it.

There's no need for difficult words.

'Sustainably generated food and shelter for all'
is enough to get the ball rolling.

Alternatively:

As well as -
'Pictures are worth a thousand words'

Alternatively (http://blog.mindshare.ie/2011/11/is-siri-the-babel-fish/):

Hasn't Apple's famous Siri managed to become the Hitchhiker's Guide's babelfish yet ?

mildadhd
01-24-12, 01:53 PM
So:

Hasn't the United Nations nailed this problem ?
~s (http://www.unog.ch/80256EE60057CB67/%28httpPages%29/6198E1266DB7B16480256EF80049A2F2?OpenDocument)~ Just 160 people to deliver 50 million words !!!
Who wants 50 million words ?
Wayyyyyy toooo much !

Alternatively:

Simple {{{whatever}}} because:

google translate english -> spanish

Si nos fijamos en esta frase.
Yo estoy a favor de la idea.
Y creo que tienes razón.
Mi pregunta es ¿cuál es el lenguaje de la colaboración?
Su presupuesto está escrito en Inglés.
No todas las personas hablan Inglés.
Y tienen su propio idioma.
Opinión?

and back again spanish -> english in blue

If you look at this sentence.
If we look at this sentence.

I am in favor of the idea.
I am all for the idea.

And I think you're right.
And I think you are right.

My question is what is the language of collaboration?
My Question is what is the language of collaboration?

Its budget is written in English.
Your quote is written in English.

Not everyone speaks English.
Not all people speak English.

And they have their own language.
And they have their own language.

Opinion?
Opinion?

-*-

Simply does it.

There's no need for difficult words.

'Sustainably generated food and shelter for all'
is enough to get the ball rolling.

Alternatively:

As well as -
'Pictures are worth a thousand words'

Alternatively (http://blog.mindshare.ie/2011/11/is-siri-the-babel-fish/):

Hasn't Apple's famous Siri managed to become the Hitchhiker's Guide's babelfish yet ?

I don't know much about the United Nations.

I don't remember ever learning anything in school about the United Nations.

You have picked up on my point.

And I had the same idea about the United Nations.

But left it out of the previous post.

I really haven't studied enough to make an opinion.

I wonder is the United Nations part of your ideas.

SB_UK
01-24-12, 02:44 PM
I don't know much about the United Nations.

I don't remember ever learning anything in school about the United Nations.

You have picked up on my point.

And I had the same idea about the United Nations.

But left it out of the previous post.

I really haven't studied enough to make an opinion.

I wonder is the United Nations part of your ideas.

As of your post :) yes.

Never really thought about the UN before today.

mildadhd
01-24-12, 10:21 PM
As of your post :) yes.

Never really thought about the UN before today.


In 1936, I declared that it was not the Covenant of the League that was at stake, but international morality. Undertakings, I said then, are of little worth if the will to keep them is lacking. The Charter of the United Nations expresses the noblest aspirations of man: abjuration of force in the settlement of disputes between states; the assurance of human rights and fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language or religion; the safeguarding of international peace and security.

But these, too, as were the phrases of the Covenant, are only words; their value depends wholly on our will to observe and honor them and give them content and meaning. The preservation of peace and the guaranteeing of man's basic freedoms and rights require courage and eternal vigilance: courage to speak and act - and if necessary, to suffer and die - for truth and justice; eternal vigilance, that the least transgression of international morality shall not go undetected and unremedied. These lessons must be learned anew by each succeeding generation, and that generation is fortunate indeed which learns from other than its own bitter experience. This Organization and each of its members bear a crushing and awesome responsibility: to absorb the wisdom of history and to apply it to the problems of the present, in order that future generations may be born, and live, and die, in peace.



SB_UK

Part of Haile Selassie I"s speech to the United Nations, Oct 1963

Thanks SB_UK for helping me make the connection by diligently expressing your opinion.


"humans may see but not perceive,

and hear but not understand,

least they return and be forgiven."-(some where in the bible)




I will research the United Nations.

I am going to start with the The League of Nations.



Let me know what you find interesting.

I would like to discuss parts in this Speech.

International Morality?

SB_UK
01-25-12, 09:03 AM
In 1936, I declared that it was not the Covenant of the League that was at stake, but international morality. Undertakings, I said then, are of little worth if the will to keep them is lacking. The Charter of the United Nations expresses the noblest aspirations of man: abjuration of force in the settlement of disputes between states; the assurance of human rights and fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language or religion; the safeguarding of international peace and security.

But these, too, as were the phrases of the Covenant, are only words; their value depends wholly on our will to observe and honor them and give them content and meaning. The preservation of peace and the guaranteeing of man's basic freedoms and rights require courage and eternal vigilance: courage to speak and act - and if necessary, to suffer and die - for truth and justice; eternal vigilance, that the least transgression of international morality shall not go undetected and unremedied. These lessons must be learned anew by each succeeding generation, and that generation is fortunate indeed which learns from other than its own bitter experience. This Organization and each of its members bear a crushing and awesome responsibility: to absorb the wisdom of history and to apply it to the problems of the present, in order that future generations may be born, and live, and die, in peace. All good.

So International morality as a supportive precursor to the 'mind' completing and individuals achieving innate morality.

Perhaps we can see the Internet (international morality) stepping into the place which National governments (power based on separation) should, but couldn't (for reasons of power warping the mind) take.

So, and just to add, that the wording implies (and that's fair enough) - that we need to do this (adopt that type of world) or else we'll suffer ... ... and although that's a fair statement (and one I use)
- the point that in that world, we won't actually want to engage in that type of (violent) behaviour, doesn't come through.

So - I really wouldn't seek to change any of his ideas - would just seek to mitigate the tone a little, away from the 'need or else (violence etc)' - to the 'dissipation of the motivation for else (violence etc)'.

Maybe it's a minor point.

We're actually looking at a species-wide awakening which can be considered as simply (since people won't like the term 'species-wide awakening') as the adoption of a mind which is capable of prioritizing 'need' based on 'suffering/pain'.

Greatest need reflecting behaviours which minimise greatest 'suffering/pain'
- with the add-on comment (exactly as I've qualified the paragraph from Selassie) being that the motivation to minimise 'suffering/pain' results in the path (in the individual) to bliss (happiness).

I think we covered this idea in the thread.

It's not all about making life as least onerous as possible - that (the path towards minimising suffering, actually in the realm of life) is simply the path into making life as much fun as possible.

Imagine 5 - 10 billion people working collaboratively.

Imagine how much fun that world could possibly be.

More fun than any individual 'll sample in a life-time.

And that's not even considering the novel property which we appear to have acquired - the equivalent of verbal communication to Homo sapiens sapiens
- we appear to have acquired a 'higher' level of human communication which operates by mind wandering contemplative thought in theta (EEG)
- though that last sentence should be discounted from the rest of the post, as it introduces a set of questions, which man being man, will lead to delays (whilst the idea is considered) to lines 2 and 3 of my signature.
intimately converged webs
Not such a big deal once one has a model for evolution which actually *expects* it ... ... ...

mildadhd
01-25-12, 03:00 PM
SU_BK

Are you familiar with the book "In The Realm of Hungry Ghosts" By Dr. Gabor Mate?

SB_UK
01-25-12, 03:15 PM
SU_BK

Are you familiar with the book "In The Realm of Hungry Ghosts" By Dr. Gabor Mate?

Exactly the point of this thread ... ... ...

Realm-Hungry-Ghosts-Encounters-Addiction (http://www.amazon.com/Realm-Hungry-Ghosts-Encounters-Addiction/dp/0676977405#reader_0676977405)
what is amiss with our lives that we seek such self-destructive ways to comfort ourselves?

mildadhd
01-25-12, 04:38 PM
Realm-Hungry-Ghosts-Encounters-Addiction


Originally Posted by Author's summary
what is a miss with our lives that we seek such self-destructive ways to comfort ourselves?


SU_BK

I live close to where the scene for this book occurs.

I walk through the alleys and streets.

And I see people with ADHD or some related illness.

Self Medicating or/and try to survive.

All of these adults where once children.


I saw on TV that France has higher tax rate because they provide more health services for a longer period of time for mothers and children.

I think they said a nurse even comes to the homes after the mother and child leave the hospital.

Thinking internationally is like making a new trail in deep snow.

SB_UK
01-26-12, 05:10 AM
In France they have no private/public divide dental system and all work has a fixed price.

In the UK we've the same dentist offering private and public work - and they'refree to set the prices they choose.

Thereby (in France) the dentist isn't at an advantage to recommend excess work (as happens in the UK's private system) or not to do enough work (as happens in the UK's national system).

In the UK - NHS dentists try to scare patients into going private (a service which most NHS dentists offer) for the benefit of the dentist.

Also - there's no protection which the individual can use to protect themselves against bad work, excess work or too little work (here) .... ... ...
clinical judgement allows the dentist to suggest as much or as little work as they wish ... ...

The healthcare system is broken and won't ever be fixed.

It can't be fixed.

There's no fixing an emergent system - it's greater than the sum of its parts - parts can't be grafted back and expected to behave even remotely as well.

We need to introduce a system of prevention.

To use epidemiology wisely to cut out the need for healthcare provision.

There are no mental or physical disease, cosmetic problems, premature aging problems, dental problems on Mount Athos.

Mount Athos does not have any healthcare system and is the healthiest place I've seen described.

Yes - it's single sex, but women are really not that different to men.

If perfect health is possible with that lifestyle for men - then looking at the one woman I know, who's much stronger than I am - then it'll work for women too.

We (she) delivered our third baby herself - the midwife didn't arrive (at our home) until after the baby was born.

She (my wife) is fine as long as I'm around; we don't need any nursing assistance - and as we 'break' - perhaps all that's required is a community of people in similar need (a physical version of this forum) to provide mutual assistance.

SB_UK
01-27-12, 09:36 AM
1. H2O2 to stop gum infections - small residue which remains triggers feelngs of stress - connection between aerobic respiration and stress
- of stress representing variation from simple aerobic respiration (excess 'oxidatives' represent deviation from homeostatic aerobic respiration).

2. Current healthcare works to mask (allow the damage to continue) and not to prevent underlying problem from recurring.
Current healthcare is similar to a carcinogenic, barely working toilet air freshener.

3. After having a filling placed right over a nerve !
Can feel that a zero glucose diet results in a reduction in pain - and sensitivity (to heat).

4. Problems (pain) from supposedly healthy foods - even small amounts - 5 raisins or 1 apple ... ...
High glucose sensitivity which translates to incredible pain sensitivity.

Switch off pain by stopping consumption of all carbohydrate.

The ultra-low blood glucose elevating veggies don't appear to activate pain
- for sure - 'protein power'.

5. Check out Barliman's idea about atlas subluxation because of birthing techniques by examining backs of children born by Caesarean section.

btw that type of birthing procedure just doesn't sound right ??

SB_UK
01-27-12, 10:56 AM
The across the board hypersensitivity (to any form of nervous stimulation) appears (surprise surprise) to be related to our inability for blood glucose elevating foods - maybe even an inability to consume carbohydrate {{{period}}} (allowing the body to make blood glucose by gluconeogenesis, as it sees fit) ... ...

- according to text 'protein power' we only need '70g protein + 10g fat' to tootle along.

- whey isolate and ghee fried green things ??

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSlxsE_kENW1Pevu8EZQzYEB-MkQDIWVvknxXHyFA83YoBIGRdCdg

'well, I may not look too clever'

Many doctors simply prefer the convenience of a C-section as opposed to spending many hours with a woman in labor, especially a first-time mother.

mildadhd
01-27-12, 03:56 PM
The across the board hypersensitivity (to any form of nervous stimulation) appears (surprise surprise) to be related to our inability for blood glucose elevating foods - maybe even an inability to consume carbohydrate {{{period}}} (allowing the body to make blood glucose by gluconeogenesis, as it sees fit) ... ...

- according to text 'protein power' we only need '70g protein + 10g fat' to tootle along.

- whey isolate and ghee fried green things ??

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSlxsE_kENW1Pevu8EZQzYEB-MkQDIWVvknxXHyFA83YoBIGRdCdg

'well, I may not look too clever'

Hi SB_UK

I have lots of questions about many posts.
That I haven't gotten to yet.
Ever see the documentary Corn?

SB_UK
01-27-12, 04:29 PM
1. H2O2 to stop gum infections - small residue which remains triggers feelngs of stress - connection between aerobic respiration and stress
- of stress representing variation from simple aerobic respiration (excess 'oxidatives' represent deviation from homeostatic aerobic respiration).

3. After having a filling placed right over a nerve !
Can feel that a zero glucose diet results in a reduction in pain - and sensitivity (to heat).

4. Problems (pain) from supposedly healthy foods - even small amounts - 5 raisins or 1 apple ... ...
High glucose sensitivity which translates to incredible pain sensitivity.

Switch off pain by stopping consumption of all carbohydrate.

The ultra-low blood glucose elevating veggies don't appear to activate pain
- for sure - 'protein power'.

paper (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1865501/)
Formation of hydrogen peroxide [10] as well as more general measurements of ROS generation [24] have been observed under high glucose conditions and are suggested to be responsible for high glucose-induced cell injury and/or death in non-neuronal cells. In primary dorsal root ganglion neurons, glucose (45 mM) rapidly induces a rise in ROS, and the toxicity induced by high glucose is blocked by inhibiting ROS induction [18].

paper (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8019908)
Inflammatory reactions induce the production of reactive oxygen species (ROS): the reverse sequence of these events is also true.


glucose
->-
neurone (in ADDer sensitive to glucose levels)
->-
ROS/H2O2
->-
inflammation
->-
pain

Our hypersensitivity is caused by our 'resistance' to exogenous carbs/sugar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diabetic_neuropathy

Diabetes and neuropathy.

SB_UK
01-27-12, 04:48 PM
Hi SB_UK

I have lots of questions about many posts.
That I haven't gotten to yet.
Ever see the documentary Corn?

'king corn' ?

"Corn is America's most productive and subsidized grain."So much starch ... ... ... itsa' all gotta' go.

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRJwm8CD_mD4anloYx7qxhs_Qp8UaruK CyUof_iwV4qFqLTzyThOw

DEFINITELY
- emergence of an aerobic animal (ADHD).

mildadhd
01-27-12, 05:13 PM
'king corn' ?So much starch ... ... ... itsa' all gotta' go.

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRJwm8CD_mD4anloYx7qxhs_Qp8UaruK CyUof_iwV4qFqLTzyThOw

DEFINITELY
- emergence of an aerobic animal (ADHD).





My basic understanding,

is that because the genetically modified corn is has more yield.

And is used for many purposes like human consumption (corn syrup) , feed for animals (cows), etc.

The bigger yield and use of corn is actually a big reason why things cost much less in the United States.

I can't remember the exact statistics but the cost of food in the United States is much less than the average cost of food in other countries,

leaving people in the USA with more income to spend on other stuff.

Without the genetically modified corn, food like hamburgers (cows are feed with corn) would cost more than now.


In regards to "change" I can't see any quick fixes for these issues.

Even if I agree with you.

Opinion?

SB_UK
01-27-12, 05:45 PM
In regards to "change" I can't see any quick fixes for these issues.

Opinion?

All Change with just 1 idea - ADHD.

The emergence of a new species which absolutely cannot eat (eg) starch.

We're metabolically more efficient - that stuff sets us on fire (literally) - incredible pain.

I'm immediately driven to joint (All of them including the spine), tooth/gum inflammation/pain, general atopy (particularly eczema, asthma) with just a little white flour.

Evolution is about to stamp its foot hard down on the profit-motive.

mildadhd
01-27-12, 07:12 PM
All Change with just 1 idea - ADHD.

The emergence of a new species which absolutely cannot eat (eg) starch.

We're metabolically more efficient - that stuff sets us on fire (literally) - incredible pain.

I'm immediately driven to joint (All of them including the spine), tooth/gum inflammation/pain, general atopy (particularly eczema, asthma) with just a little white flour.

Evolution is about to stamp its foot hard down on the profit-motive.


These are some questions/thoughts I have had.

Maybe in not all cases,

but there is definitely a heredity/environmental (epigenetic) factor in many cases.

Which effects overall development.


If we are talking about something like Metabolic Syndrome.

Person #1 has Metabolic Syndrome.

Person #2 has Metabolic Syndrome and ADHD.

I would think that person #2 with an underdeveloped Limbic System(ADHD),

would have more complications from Metabolic Syndrome and ADHD.

I think ADHD and Metabolic Syndrome are both very real.

But I don't consider them the same thing.


Opinion?

SB_UK
01-28-12, 05:51 AM
Good point.

The difference will involve (a) mind (b) mental stress (c) stress (general).

That the more efficient metabolic engine is shared by those who develop metabolic syndrome and ADHD - however, where development of mind, stress (general) and stress (mental) (academic pressure) 'help' to shift control of behaviour
from
limbic system determination
(the selfish directive - the primitive reward system)
->- to ->-
cortical system determination
(the social directive - since the social motivation of collaboration over competition - is rational).

-*-

The difference between ADHD/metabolic syndrome and metabolic syndrome - is that stress is required to bring out ADHD.

An individual under no stress with metabolic syndrome won't exacerbate their metabolic syndrome (by the [stress - reward] feedback loop - resulting in increased carb. (primitive reward system activating) behaviour).
Why comfort eat if the individual's comfortable ?

So stress (general), stress (mental) and mind.

Stress (general) -> results in our mind not fighting but receiving added impetus towards construction.

Stress (mental) -> once again resulting in a selection pressure towards construction of mind.

Mind -> as it observes an incompatibility between the life which society demands we live (primitive reward system activation of striving towards as much money, power and sex as possible) and the life which it wants to live (without any of that - as irrational) - increased stress is driven - driving development of mind yet further.

Mind populates brain - until mind completes - and the individual understands (pretty much) everything (wisdom - meeting of mind, minds, all minds)

- the basic story though - exactly as described by GBYR is of the rational mind (overlying the limbic system) wrestling control of behaviour from the limbic system

- to be compared with the Buddhist idea of 'right speech'

- the ADDer without tendency towards divisive, pointlessly subjective 'you're good and I'm bad' type behaviour (the limbic system is divisive - drives the individual towards victory over and not collaboration with all others) ... ... ...

- the ADDer with (as the more connected mind develops) a closer allegiance to mind (to cortical control over behaviour) - until at a meeting of (mind,minds,the collective mind)
- we experience a transition from tendency towards inability to evade the (enforced moral consistency) call of the (forming to now formed) thinking (moral/rational/logical from the perspective of wellbeing of the species)
->- to ->-
inability to evade the thinking mind.

SB_UK
01-28-12, 06:28 AM
More simply - what's the difference between ADHD/metabolic syndrome and metabolic syndrome ?
enforced limbic system devolution to the thinking mind

Selfish (with more efficient epigentic tendency to metabolism, particularly in neural connectivity in neocortex (therefore mind))
+
Stress/Mind
->-
Social.

Increased likelihood of the transition occurring in people subject to Stress (for instance being a racial minority)/Mind (being part of a racial minority which worships academic certificate acquisition).

Noting the previous point that an individual from multiple generations of malnutrition shifting to a land of plentiful carb availability
- would (once again) be placed at greater risk.

So - a convergence of risk factors in the population shifted from poor to rich world (generally for academic excellence)
- which highlights the pattern of evolution of the species.

Absolutely unsurprising, the generation of a more efficient metabolic engine.
Also unsurprising - given our frequent use of terms such as the 'renaissance'
- the generation (simultaneously) of a species with increased metabolic efficiency -
- with allegiance to one another (collaboration - formation of a social species).

The only shift required (from the perspective of mind) 'd be a shift from a graphite template to a tetrahedral template of logical structure of mind
- that is from a trigonal planar (sheets slide over one another - cognitive dissonance avoided - logical inconsistency supported) to tetrahedral (a single unified structure - top to bottom, and back again).

The development of a tetrahedral structure (growing wiser) does not become wisdom until the tetrahedral structure completes - Ouroborus.
Once complete - it pair-bonds (see definition of the geometric pattern to evolution - 3 pair-bond formation)
- resulting in (on completion)

social structure formation.

-*-

So - absolutely, limbic system (unthinking) devolution of power to the thinking mind.

The selfish imperative whih we're born into (original sin) is less binding over the ADDer - with our mind (its greater complexity in formation) - protecting us from falling into local belief systems.

Local belief systems are (as we see illustrated in the religious fundamentalist (though in any fundamentalism eg scientific)) are the basis to evil.

No division between people into 'good' and 'bad'
- even if the individual kids themselves into believing that their -ISM isn't about that (since it is)
is acceptable to the rational mind.

The mind which can perform that division (which is defined on its need to define division between people) - is not yet a mind.

That's a useful mechanism for defining the difference between Mind and No mind.

We don't have a mind, until that mind has wrestled control from the limbic system (selfish, primitive reward system, material world desires) over behaviour.

The mind which has wrestled behavioural control from the limbic system to the neocortex - can be identified through examination of the metabolic efficiency of the body

- mandating (without exception) an elimination of primitive reward system activators of blood glucose elevating agents

- a sensitivity to blood glucose elevation (foods + stress)

- with the mind reacting to blood glucose elevation - not through repulsion, but through bodily pain.

An increased sensitivity which results in (painful) hypersensitivity of peripheral systems to blood glucose elevation.

The association of nervous irritation (hypersensitivity of neurone to glucose) with inflammation.

~s (http://www.jimmunol.org/content/166/2/1285.short)~
Sensory nerve-derived neuropeptides such as substance P demonstrate a number of proinflammatory bioactivities ...

Opening the door to the basis to Multiple Sclerosis.

SB_UK
01-28-12, 09:51 AM
--ps-- undeveloped limbic system defined as a subservient (to mind) emotional (limbic) subsystem.

That is -

emotion (selfish) -> behaviour

In ADHD until wisdom transition cements pattern - the tendency towards:

mind (rationality) -> emotion (social) -> behaviour.

We're simply gifted in completing the transition; that's not the same as suggesting that we will though.

Failure to make the transition will result in ADDers requiring more reward than nonADDer from the primitive reward system
- meaning alas! increased capacity for doing evil.

Evil - definition - anti-social behaviour.

Transition:
anti-social (reward) -> social (reward)

Fail to make the transition to 'social' results in ADDer needing to make the transition 'hard' in the opposite direction.

Why 'hard' ?
Because to thwart a more interconnected mind requires more reward to comfort the stress than to thwart a less interconnected mind.
The ADDer's greater complexity of basic interconnecting logical structure as component of mind - generates more stress on anti-social behaviour - requires (primitive) more reward to balance the stress - generates even more stress - requires even more (primitive) reward

- slave to the primitive reward system activators of (money, sex and power) - the anti-social tendency forces the individual into ever more of these behaviours.

And the problem ?

How about -
Brandon is a successful, handsome thirty-something living and working in New York. He seems to have it all, but he also has a compulsive personality that has him feeling trapped. With a ferocious sexual appetite, Brandon survives on a diet of random physical encounters. Sometimes he pays, sometimes he finds satisfaction alone, but one way or another his desires need to be met.

'trapped'

'... ... one way or another his desires need to be met'.

SB_UK
01-28-12, 10:00 AM
We literally need to try in violent anti-social manner to combat our own mind's tendency towards doing the right thing.

In the process, we kill ourselves trying.

Current society (at its root - selfish (people whorship those with more money, power and sex than themselves) is the breeding ground for ADDer self-destruction.

The lower mind screaming at us to 'just do it' (sit on some conveyor belt somewhere)

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSon9MDwF4VBUZFRIimDyCPvjB7R36Ay JTjZZBoTmrxfcfSPSuw_g

- whilst the higher mind refuses.

http://i.istockimg.com/file_thumbview_approve/18618239/2/stock-photo-18618239-woman-says-no.jpg

geronimo !
... ... back to Rita
-> male -> female > male > female -> male -> female ->

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPclmNZh4kk&feature=related

SB_UK
01-28-12, 10:06 AM
1. Shifting to decaff coffee (to see if the acidity can be handled)

2. Reality can be imagined to be the outer ripple on a single stone thrown into a pond - undergoing (as shown here (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fd/Von_Koch_curve.gif)) - variation to complexity
- we can be sure (just as we desire deep down - that horrible feeling of boredom)
- that increasing complexity is more than built in
- it's demanded.

3. ~s (http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2078355,00.html)~The winters there last eight months of the year, and as Pavlova recalls, the young people are in a constant state of boredom. Most of them drink and few of them work, the same as in hundreds of towns and villages across Russia's frozen north. Besides her, Pavlova says there were about a dozen krokodil addicts she hung around with, including her brother. "Practically all of them are dead now," she says.4. An incentive for living ?
Evolution is a kinda' game which we're programmed to play - it's overwhelming interesting to wonder 'what next ?'

We'll discover over the next while an evolutionary adaptation over man - as significant as man is to bacteria.

So - a motivation for living - making the journey (a contribution) to an unimaginable better for future generations (species).

Breaking our ties with animal (the primitive reward system) is the largest hurdle we face - we're literally at the junction of abstraction levels
- in rendering the physical body as a completed abstraction layer
- just as the subatomic physics layer within us, is to us.

Lines 2 + 3 of my signature are enough to go most of the way towards closing off the (physical, animal) abstraction layer.

Continued evolution (in space (Stephen Hawking)) - at the level of mind - waves in the cavity between electrical swirls on the planet and ionosphere.

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTmzwbzA5NAl4bBiHvjwG8seRKRqs2Jh K0z4LB9bTO6-xWorcgc

{{{ radio head }}}

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JgZVgeA1Mw&feature=related

-> male -> female > male > female -> male -> female ->

love
- a divine geometry defining the evolutionary method.

Love will tear us apart again.

SB_UK
01-28-12, 10:36 AM
This idea's completely unassailable.

There isn't any way that I can break it.

Stephen Hawking's Theory of Everything is correct.
I know :-)
(method to the apparent madness of evolution)

SB_UK
01-28-12, 01:37 PM
Ever see the documentary Corn?

42:50
'feeding corn (starch) to cattle kills them' (for the meat industry)

This really is ALL wrong.

and

Ground wheat versus whole wheat for fattening pigs (http://www.amazon.com/fattening-Bulletin-Agricultural-Experiment-Nebraska/dp/B0008AD0ZO/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1327772170&sr=1-1)

-*-

Starch/sugar (the cause of dental decay also) is not a valid human (OR OTHERWISE) food.

-*-

Cows're as happy as they can be, eating grass.

SB_UK
01-28-12, 01:50 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foie_gras (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foie_gras#Fattening)

The feed, usually corn boiled with fat...Fattened liverHow stupid are human beings ?

The well known biochemistry of abuse to geese in the production of foie gras, is being repeated (precisely) in human beings.

All of the above is science at a truly trivial level.

http://www.patient.co.uk/health/Fatty-Liver-Disease.htm
However, all people with non-alcoholic fatty liver disease have an increased risk of developing cardiovascular problems such as heart attack and stroke.

SB_UK
01-28-12, 02:09 PM
Aspartame leads to pain also !

SB_UK
01-28-12, 02:38 PM
"In The Realm of Hungry Ghosts"

America.

Realm of the (nutritionally empty) plenty.

SB_UK
01-28-12, 02:40 PM
Your quote is written in English.
Not all people speak English.

Esperanto - A straight-up no nonsense second language for all people.

SB_UK
01-28-12, 02:51 PM
Originally Posted by wikiP/foie gras
The feed, usually corn boiled with fat...starch (sugar) (glucose) + fat (triglyceride)

In a large survey of healthy centenarians, a blood analysis showed that the only commonality which separated them from controls, was a low serum glucose and triglyceride (level).

Epidemiology again.

How easy is all of this ?

SB_UK
01-28-12, 03:14 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_health
"The fact that type 2 diabetes, a largely preventable disorder, has reached epidemic proportion is a public health humiliation."

Not quite - there's one itty-bitty aspect to man which we really need to understand before we accept humiliation.

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTl_HG5BBEPAqjGhyegZvVmniFvgPH3M e2D_INCGpZ4po_SookGLQ
... ...as in all fruit apples contain high amounts of sugar and if you consume too much it will send your insulin levels up.
There's this weakness see

mildadhd
01-28-12, 07:41 PM
Hi SU_BK,

Interesting!

If I remember correctly the meat from the cows that are feed corn have a much higher fat/body ratio,

then cows that are fed in pastures.

The cows that are fed corn also get bigger quicker.

Making things much more profitable.

And the burgers less healthy.

With long term health risks not taken into consideration.

Being honest, I eat that stuff.

Stopped for three years.

But did not no at the time how to get a good protein diet.

And returned to eating meat.

What you are saying is true in my opinion.

And I am going to try hard to get back on track.

My step son came home from school one a day a few years ago and had a great line that his teacher taught him,

"the whiter the bread, the sooner your dead."

As for the Untied States they do plenty of good things in the world and for Canada.(in my opinion)

So I don't want to sound like I am making a Anti-USA statement.

People in North America have a choice to eat or not eat these foods.

I know people who don't.

The stressed fast pace world we live in has a part in all of these issues.

Eating organically is very expensive.

I will try to do my best to make better choices in the future.

You make a lot of great points.

That I can't refute.

mildadhd
01-29-12, 03:27 AM
Musical Intermission :grouphug:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3TlLCm7V8g&feature=related

SB_UK
01-29-12, 09:59 AM
'that will burn this whole madhouse down'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wl5EqjtRuGU

SB_UK
01-29-12, 10:02 AM
'Crashing down
Crashing down my friends
Only love
Only love can win'http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gs97rwMahmw

SB_UK
01-29-12, 10:11 AM
American governmental policy of heavy subsidies to drive the poisonous allure of starch into the food supply.

'Break down the government walls'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RxD8unAxhU

SB_UK
01-29-12, 10:14 AM
'Burn down
Crash down
Break down'

'emergence of a species of proteinaceous(Krishna - whey, Christ - fish)phets' not opiate class protein (caseomorphin) not omega-6 fa and especially not sugar/starch

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRqRxrZ81tG5MvFMS-1M3SCNa92gSRJ1sxQV_92vtn4guXGVGbJ

SB_UK
01-31-12, 04:51 AM
paper (http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/bi952250b)
As an application, we show that N-type calcium channel inactivation is shifted reversibly toward negative potentials by synthetic detergents that decrease bilayer stiffness. Cholesterol, which increases bilayer stiffness, shifts channel inactivation toward positive potentials.I think that the body's cholesterol production (high cholesterol) is being driven by stress/diet affecting ionic gradients (wildly) - causing the body to need to churn out bucketloadsa' cholesterol to the cells of the body
- to alter membrane fluidity.

To alter the ionic gradients from blood all the way through to inner cellular organelle compartment.

-*-

Glucose, urea (from protein) and salt are the 3 key osmotically active components
- necessitating an elimination of hyperglycaemic agents, reduction in protein intake and removal of all processed food from our diet.

From Wisdom debate thread (#594)

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The association between hairloss and Metabolic Syndrome.

The poor poetry of the vogon, sontaran, banker, lawyer etc
- using words without meaning.

Metabolic Syndrome emerges most noticeably in those sensitive to glucose (not needing it as much) in an environment of plenty (particularly starch).

People (without mind, without wisdom) are on a trajectory from their 30's onwards to premature death following life to disease, unless people realise that they're being controlled
- and have no (rational) control over their behaviour.

The triumviracy of the neural system, blood system and muscle appears to be co-ordination for aerobic respiration (O2 in CO2 out) ... ... ....
the system optimizes to pure aerobic from anaerobic ... ...

Pure aerobic respiration becomes easily possible with the transition of reward systems (to wisdom) -
- because the attraction for blood glucose elevation is no longer there.

Personal experience - the taste of carbohydrate doesn't become unpleasant - what occurs though is a massive and IMMEDIATE increase in pain, inflammation, neural sensitivity to blood glucose elevation.

Hoping that Bengal gram chana dal flour can be used to make bread.

Otherwise fish + whey powder + green (hyperglycaemic vegetables) + spice + herbs (but not too much even of these)
- appear to 'work' - be edible without causing pain.

SB_UK
01-31-12, 05:12 AM
1. Fasting results in incredibly decreased joint pain and tooth pain (neural sensitivity, inflammation).

2. Only extremities of fingers and toes feel as though they're painfully vasoconstricted when cycling at zero degrees C.
cf. (eg from King Corn - the necrosis of fingers/toes in T2D).

3. I think that higher blood glucose than is required drives eg vasoconstriction
- so - just as we're used to blood glucose elevation with Sympathetic Nervous System activation leading to vasoconstriction
- I think that blood glucose elevation (diet) by itself can drive the mechanism
- vasoconstriction, as well as nervous activity (driving inflammation) ... ...

4. From 3. we have a triumviracy of nerve cell, muscle cell and blood (including immune cell) cell which appear to be working 'connected' in handling physiological homeostasis.
Fire (co-ordination (NERVE) burning fat
with
O2 in (blood system)
and
CO2 out (smooth/skeletal muscle)

5. So - a physiological system which is switching epigenetically from a less efficient anaerobic/aerobic mechanism to an efficient aerobic system
- the more efficient aerobic system wants to regulate its own blood glucose levels
- attempts to take this ability away (by food or excess stress) leads to a (particularly in ADDers at completion of pair-bonding) reactive attempt to restore optimal conditions -
driving pain (reactive neural firing / hypersensitivity in the ADDer) and inflammation (immune) (driven by a chronically firing nervous system through pro-inflammatory factor release).

6. The inevitability of the epigenetic changes resulting in optimization of the epigenome is seen in the three paths which we may take to the same destination
-1- blood cell - through eg meditation (yogic breathing)
-2- nerve cell - through building the global mind
-3- muscle cell - through engaging in high levels of aerobic exercise

All three simultaneously get us 'there' most effectively.

SB_UK
01-31-12, 05:27 AM
So ... ... the reason why all of 'this' has been difficult to get our heads around - is that we (human beings) have proven a moving target.

Different stages - if we compare people and also if we compare the same person as they age - of epigenetic modification - on the way towards completion in epigenetic modification (closure of the genomic evolution stage of man).

A variability in sensitivity to (most notably) - blood glucose elevation which tracks from low to completely resistant (the body trickling out basal levels thrugh gluconeogenesis) with epigenetic modification
- this transition (above) occurs in parallel with a switch in reward systems -
with the primitive reward system representing reward from blood glucose elevation ... ... ...

the final stage in the life-cycle of man occurs when we exit the primitive reward system for a higher reward system
- from selfish -> social reward system

- the body's biochemical engine is rendered 'complete' (described in a previous thread with GBYR - 'pared back' to a minimum essential balance) and requires only basal energetic supply to keep it in action -

- whilst the mind (meeting of minds as precursor to the species level of mind being achieved) takes over, as our new vehicle for evolution.

The human mind representing the most evolved (highest complexity) structure in the Universe - of necessity - the evolutionary proces closes off the 'physical world' (which it must do) - and then fields a new abstraction layer elsewhere - which it, itself must then form.

The transition from primitive reward system to higher reward system occurs as it's (the primitive reward system) supplanted
- as the process of a meeting of mind, minds, all minds (in that 'space') occurs.

We experience a switch in 'what floats our boat'.

We (ADDers) desire to maintain theta EEG (pure perfect aerobic respiration with low energetic input)
- we're (ADDers) not allowed to maintain theta EEG (in this world of compete for everything!!)

- we're (ADDers) born into the tendency to transcend mind (to attain theta - the ADHDer's 'hyperactivity' and the ADD-Ier's 'dream)
- but we're not helped into the population of mind (the brain is predisposed to, but still requires population by information - mind), which'll result in formation of a balanced structure of the individual's mind
- which'll allow it to pair-bond (the higher definition of love to be found in the book, movie, theatre, song lyrics everywhere)

- and so not helped (despite pre-disposed) to a higher 'reward' pathway -
we (particulalry ADDers) are required to over-crank the lower 'primitive' reward pathway to compensate (without realising)
- or maybe we feel greater stress heading in the wrong direction and so require greater levels of 'comfort' (primitive reward system activation) to allow us to function

- absolutely for sure, the use of dexedrine became essential to this mind to survive in that world out there -

- in the process (of searching for primitive reward system activation) commit acts of great evil (the pursuit of money, power, sex for ourselves exclusively - irregardless to the effects on others) against ourselves and society
- kill ourselves (of our own volition) to the diseases of Western (all of them) living in the process

(Mount Athos has none of these diseases )

and all because we're unaware of the existence, despite the incredible information {{{out there}}} pointing to its existence
- of 'where' we should be headed.

The switch from selfish to social state (How to acquire mind)
1. Understand the world around (simple with a model for evolution - 3 pair-bonds)
2. Pair bond (not as easy as it sounds - undergoing the administrative act of marriage isn't in any way near enough... ...)

A meeting of minds.

mildadhd
02-02-12, 11:41 PM
Hi SB_UK,

Hope everything is well.

I think you are right that some food causes irritation, inflammation etc.

I still haven't read all of your posts.

I wondered your opinion,

about Dr.Mates opinion,

and my translation/understanding of.

There is probably other options as well.

It is sensitivity,

not the disorder,

that is transmitted through heredity.

In most cases,

ADD is caused by the impact of the environment on particularly sensitive infants. -Dr.Mate, Scattered Minds, p59


Infants with an inherited ADHD sensitivity,

multiplied by lack of and/or impact,

of the environment,

equal ADHD.


or


Infants with an inherited ADHD sensitivity,

divided by lack of and/or impact,

of the environment,

equal ADHD.

-GBYR




Also what is your opinion about,


Metabolic Syndrome and ADHD,


Metabolic Syndrome can equal signs of ADHD and symptoms of Metabolic Syndrome

(ADHD + Metabolic Syndrome) can equal more severe (symptoms of ADHD + symptoms of Metabolic Syndrome.)

ADHD can equal signs of Metabolic Syndrome and Symptoms of ADHD.



Allergies and ADHD

Allergies can equal signs of ADHD and symptoms of Allergies

(Allergies + ADHD) can equal more severe (symptoms of Allergies + symptoms of ADHD)

ADHD can equal signs of Allergies and Symptoms of ADHD.

[/QUOTE]

SB_UK
02-03-12, 10:36 AM
PART 1 - GBYR

Excellent -

*yes* sensitivity to glucose (epigenetically sculpting an aerobic organism)

PART 2 - GBYR

- the triumviracy of nerve cell, haemoatopoietic (blood,immune) and muscle cell (metabolism)

metabolic syndrome - muscle (metabolism)
allergy - haematopoietic (blood,immune)
ADHD - neural

3 systems - hand-in-hand trying to maintain homeostatic conditions in an aerobic system
- homeostasis ensured by 'sucking' up excess factors (glucose) to activity
- deep susceptible to blood glucose level fluctuation - absolute desire to keep blood glucose levels basal (the body to do for itself)

- increased blood glucose from diet/stress result in those 3 systems displaying 'hyperactivity' -

hypersensitivity.

Hypersensitivity at the neural, muscular and immune levels.

Racing mind (but not in a good way), cramp, diseases of an overly active immune system (auto-immune,inflammatory,allergy); I have all of these problems and many more on top.

-*-

Summarising
It all makes sense - the ADDer is (simply) an aerobic organism with absolute requirement to keep blood glucose levels down.
We're over-clocked by blood glucose elevators
- resulting in a dramatically shorter life, characterized (in the shorter time that we have) - by disease.

ginniebean
02-03-12, 02:34 PM
http://vimeo.com/8665110

could not get this to show so here's a link.. enjoy!

SB_UK
02-03-12, 04:25 PM
http://vimeo.com/8665110

could not get this to show so here's a link.. enjoy!

After death, it is the Self that remains; the Self is immortal.

Inability to realize Brahman results in one being enmeshed in the cycle of rebirths. Understanding the Self leads to moksha

Thus having learnt the wisdom of the Brahman from Yama, Nachiketa was freed from the cycle of births.


Death and Death


Re-birth and Re-birth.


Words make things a lot more complex than they are.


Enjoyable lecturer ... ... ...

ginniebean
02-03-12, 05:53 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mst3fOl5vH0&feature=related

David Bohm on perception

mildadhd
02-03-12, 06:54 PM
http://vimeo.com/8665110

could not get this to show so here's a link.. enjoy!



Thanks Coach Bean!!!

I really enjoyed this video.

ginniebean
02-08-12, 03:19 AM
Where Spring, the lord of the seasons, reigneth, there the

Unstruck Music sounds of itself,

There the streams of light flow in all directions;

Few are the men who can cross to that shore!

There, where millions of Krishnas stand with hands folded,

Where millions of Vishnus bow their heads,

Where millions of Brahmâs are reading the Vedas,

Where millions of Shivas are lost in contemplation,

Where millions of Indras dwell in the sky,

Where the demi-gods and the munis are unnumbered,

Where millions of Saraswatis, Goddess of Music, play on the vina--

There is my Lord self-revealed: and the scent of sandal and

flowers dwells in those deeps.

KABIR

ginniebean
02-08-12, 03:19 AM
OH, thought I was in the poetry thread.. but this can go here.. oops