View Full Version : Do you know a Vulnerable Narcissist?


Blueranne
03-06-12, 04:26 PM
http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~w535680/Zeigler-Hill,%20Clark,%20&%20Pickard%20(2008).pdf

http://college.sapir.ac.il/sapir/dept/hrm/katedra/Besser_Priel_(2010b).pdf

http://www.sakkyndig.com/psykologi/artvit/dickinson2003.pdf

"The closet narcissist is more likely to be described as having a deflated, inadequate self-perception and greater awareness of emptiness within.*The closet narcissist seeks constant approval from others and appears similar to the borderline in the need to please others. These people are fighting delusions of insignificance and lost value and are trying to re-establish their self-esteem through grandiose fantasies and self-reinforcement.*"
- Copied and pasted from various wiki definitions

Does anyone know someone in real life with this subtype of Narcissism? I've been curious about Vulnerable Narcissism for quite some time. My dad could easily fit most if not all of the descriptors I've found. I don't think its right of me to try and pin a diagnoses on those in my life, that not what Im tring to do, but since personality trates fit onto spectrums and since a PD is an abnormally extreme personality trate or trates, well, this is where my interest lays. I'm just curious, I guess.

TheChemicals
03-06-12, 04:56 PM
Not sure...everything i read or hear nowadays sounds like myself.

daveddd
03-07-12, 09:11 PM
yes,

plus the vulnerable narcissist is very close to the avoidant personality disorder

some says its the same

some call it covert narcissist

ive also read quit a bit of literature that considers this symptom cluster, a disorder with a neurological cause

it is usually adhd(hyperactive ) plus depression, social anxiety and general anxiety symptoms

ginniebean
03-07-12, 09:33 PM
I don't really know enough to say but my mom does seem to fit the description althought not entirely. She is very vulnerable to criticism.

Blueranne
03-07-12, 09:51 PM
My symptoms that are similar to the vulnerable narcissist fluctuate with my bipolar symptoms. But in my father his personality is most generally very similar to the symptoms in some of those links.

I'm assuming that treatment for the vulnerable narcissist has a better chance of working than the full blown narcissist.

And from what I understand, the vulnerability part is not always noticeable, the narcissism is what is used to cover up the vulnerability. So basically people that would have this diagnosis appear to be complete ********, but really are very insecure and in their head blame everyone else for everything... So yeah, I see what you are saying daveddd.

trishcan
03-07-12, 10:18 PM
Vulnerable narcissistic personalities are aware of their hypersensitivity
within relationships, expecting others to meet their needs and
fearing others will fail to respond to them. When the latter occurs, these
characters often become ashamed for needing anything from others in the
first place. For individuals, relationships would be experienced with fear to
the degree that they highlight the individual’s vulnerability and sense of inadequacy
vis--vis his or her entitled expectations.

Do I know one? I am one.

trishcan
03-07-12, 10:44 PM
Really, though... I'm curious, now.

Questions


Is the central distinction between BPD and NPD the presence or absence of empathy? Or is there more to it than that?
Can people with BPD also have an exaggerated sense of self-importance, a la NPD?
I'm hung up on the expectations aspect of relationships for those with this variety of NPD. I strongly relate, to the point where I feel inclined to eliminate all other possibilities. Everyone fails me, always. As much as I'd prefer not to admit it, the shame of needing people is, and has been for as long as I can recall, a significant theme in all of my relationships. It's also been responsible for the systematic destruction of each of those relationships. Is there another (clinical) explanation for this?
I don't consider myself overtly manipulative. At the same time, I do things, in relationships, that feel instinctual but I recognize are guided by pretty twisted lines of thinking. The sorts of things that I guess would fall under the umbrella of always trying to be a step or two ahead of others. Looking at a relationship like a game of chess, being ever strategic to defeat my opponent before he/she has a chance to disappoint or reject me. While there may, at one time, have been a great deal of thought involved in that, it now happens whether I wish it to or not. I don't know if I've conditioned myself to behave this way in relationships or if it's just the way I naturally approach people, which is a terrifying thought. Are these patterns narcissistic tendencies or something less sinister?

ginniebean
03-07-12, 10:52 PM
I love my mom very much, and I know just what her condition has cost her, she wasn't diagnosed until much later in life and now they don't even talk about real treatment but rather maintenance.

She's still looking for treatment, and at the same time she still puts up barriers to it, that too is part of the condition. To me it feels like invisible walls of glass that surround her, she can see out, I can see in but she's alone in those glass walls, decorating it to soothe herself and oblivious to how the outside of that glass feels or operates.

Try and break down those walls to get to my mother, the thicker they become.

ginniebean
03-07-12, 11:11 PM
Really, though... I'm curious, now.

[
I'm hung up on the expectations aspect of relationships for those with this variety of NPD. I strongly relate, to the point where I feel inclined to eliminate all other possibilities. Everyone fails me, always. As much as I'd prefer not to admit it, the shame of needing people is, and has been for as long as I can recall, a significant theme in all of my relationships. It's also been responsible for the systematic destruction of each of those relationships. Is there another (clinical) explanation for this?

I don't know the answer to question 1 or 2 as I don't know about borderline as much as I'm aware of the others.

I don't think I can offer you anything in the way of a clinical explanation but I'd be willing to talk about it actually, I would really like to.

I see this shame in my mother, and it's painful to see, she doesn't admit it, except occaisionally. It comes out as an extreme defensiveness and denial and when that happens I know I've stepped into it and have to back off.

We have had very intimate and frank discussion about her experience but only when she feels comfortable that there is no judge that it's possible to explore these areas she feels so tender and humiliated by. I will also say that those time are capricious, perhaps related to the ups and downs of her condition.


I don't consider myself overtly manipulative. At the same time, I do things, in relationships, that feel instinctual but I recognize are guided by pretty twisted lines of thinking. The sorts of things that I guess would fall under the umbrella of always trying to be a step or two ahead of others. Looking at a relationship like a game of chess, being ever strategic to defeat my opponent before he/she has a chance to disappoint or reject me. While there may, at one time, have been a great deal of thought involved in that, it now happens whether I wish it to or not. I don't know if I've conditioned myself to behave this way in relationships or if it's just the way I naturally approach people, which is a terrifying thought. Are these patterns narcissistic tendencies or something less sinister?
[/LIST]


I've often felt that people with NPD are instinctive in their ablity to read people, I don't know if it's a conditioned defence that long ago became second nature. Maybe it's both, human beings are predators, some more so than others but it exists in all of us.

Is our animal nature sinister? I am reluctant to use that term. My mom has gravely hurt others in her seeking to be loved and accepted in her completely unrealistic way. It's interesting to me that you use the word 'sinister' because I sorta see this in my mom, she's made of her condition a monster under the bed type scenario that if I look it will be SOOOO BAD and SOOO terrifying, mostly to face the shame of it, or that she feels surrounding it. The only way my mother has been able to look, to speak of it has been in those moments when there is no judgement and then in discreet amounts. For her, looking inside is terrifying and something to be avoided.

I wish she could see herself thru my eyes, because she's a lovely person stuck in her own world.

daveddd
03-08-12, 12:45 AM
My symptoms that are similar to the vulnerable narcissist fluctuate with my bipolar symptoms. But in my father his personality is most generally very similar to the symptoms in some of those links.

I'm assuming that treatment for the vulnerable narcissist has a better chance of working than the full blown narcissist.

And from what I understand, the vulnerability part is not always noticeable, the narcissism is what is used to cover up the vulnerability. So basically people that would have this diagnosis appear to be complete ********, but really are very insecure and in their head blame everyone else for everything... So yeah, I see what you are saying daveddd.

as far as treatment compared to malignant narcissism, yes this has a better outcome

while the narcissistic traits are still ego syntonic, these people are more likely to enter into treatment for axis 1 dx

also several studies have shown that these particular symptoms may even respond to ssris or maois

the vulnerable narcissist also resembles an old diagnostic term of hysteroid deprerssion

Ginniebean,

in response to your theory of the vulnerable narcissists ability to read people, that makes sense

in studies the vulnerable narcissist( not malignant/psychopath), has actually proven to have MORE empathy than the average person(like supposed asperger subjects do), as well as more feelings of guilt and anxiety

they respond in the 'personal distress' model of empathy, in other words, others feelings are too much to handle and cant be differentiated from their own

this is thought to be related to their extremely high EDR response during eye contact, which is why gaze avoidance is a symptom

and why its thought to be neurological

the patients are also thought to be temperamental babies, sensitive to the environment

daveddd
03-08-12, 12:52 AM
Really, though... I'm curious, now.

Questions


Is the central distinction between BPD and NPD the presence or absence of empathy? Or is there more to it than that?
Can people with BPD also have an exaggerated sense of self-importance, a la NPD?
I'm hung up on the expectations aspect of relationships for those with this variety of NPD. I strongly relate, to the point where I feel inclined to eliminate all other possibilities. Everyone fails me, always. As much as I'd prefer not to admit it, the shame of needing people is, and has been for as long as I can recall, a significant theme in all of my relationships. It's also been responsible for the systematic destruction of each of those relationships. Is there another (clinical) explanation for this?
I don't consider myself overtly manipulative. At the same time, I do things, in relationships, that feel instinctual but I recognize are guided by pretty twisted lines of thinking. The sorts of things that I guess would fall under the umbrella of always trying to be a step or two ahead of others. Looking at a relationship like a game of chess, being ever strategic to defeat my opponent before he/she has a chance to disappoint or reject me. While there may, at one time, have been a great deal of thought involved in that, it now happens whether I wish it to or not. I don't know if I've conditioned myself to behave this way in relationships or if it's just the way I naturally approach people, which is a terrifying thought. Are these patterns narcissistic tendencies or something less sinister?


this describes cluster Bs in general, which i believe avoidant should belong to

the empathy part i mentioned above

there has been a particular phenotype of interest that is said to be borderline /covert narcissist/ avoidant

as for preventing relationship rejection, it fits http://books.google.com/books?id=r8OaELnHG6UC&printsec=frontcover&dq=distancing&hl=en&sa=X&ei=FTpYT9qcKcO60QGBuoCdDw&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=distancing&f=false

ginniebean
03-08-12, 01:14 AM
they respond in the 'personal distress' model of empathy, in other words, others feelings are too much to handle and cant be differentiated from their own




Wow, I think I just learned something big here! Makes total sense.

daveddd
03-08-12, 01:18 AM
Wow, I think I just learned something big here! Makes total sense.

http://books.google.com/books?id=KLvJKTN_nDoC&pg=PA199&dq=personal+distress+empathy&hl=en&sa=X&ei=jUBYT6LTAYHb0QHWwcTODw&ved=0CDkQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=personal%20distress%20empathy&f=false

daveddd
03-09-12, 09:35 AM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10320415

this was the adhd , depression etc phenotype i was taking about that is thought to lead to avoidant personality disorder

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12839099

this is one of the studies i found linking vulnerable narcissism and avoidant

ive read much more to validate it as well

shamrock
03-10-12, 03:21 AM
There is a lot of good info on psych forums .com

They cover all the personality disorders.

mrs. dobbs
03-14-12, 12:07 AM
i wonder if there's a relationship between the self-abandoning avoidant type/behavior and the self-abandonment of narcissism and the dissociation of borderline and or C-PTSD?

trishcan
03-14-12, 12:15 AM
i wonder if there's a relationship between the self-abandoning avoidant type/behavior and the self-abandonment of narcissism and the dissociation of borderline and or C-PTSD?
That's ultimately my question. I have the behavior. I can't say where it comes from, though C-PTSD and BPD are generally widely overlapping, anyway.

mrs. dobbs
03-14-12, 12:21 PM
yeah, this would bring together several threads-- one of which you originated, another about depersonalization which you posted in and another that shamrock posted about avpd subtypes.... along with what's been written about the cause of narcissistic complexes-- an exiled self.

so maybe at the core, there's some trauma-based self-abandonment mechanism that results in one of more of the various flavors of cluster b. i also have paranoid personality behaviors, and those are pretty narcissistic *and* dependent, i find. but that's because i keep locating myself in others ('they're out to mess me over/they're laughing at me') due to self-abandonment-- something that truly annoys me... because it like in narcissism, it assumes that others are extensions of me. the use of others as mirrors is the use of others as a self in lieu of the self i can't or am too ashamed/terrified to find and use.

and since there can be both significant trauma associated with undiagnosed add & childhood, and an overlap in brain dysfunction with add (e.g. inattentive and self-abandonment) i guess there's also that.

and you picked up on that i feel more comfortable discussing these things as behaviors rather than personality types. :)

personally, i am relieved to see the 'vulnerable narcissist' type because i have been convinced that i have narcissistic traits without the malignant or empathy-less part. if anything, i can be too empathic and personalizing and find this to be terribly egocentric and dysfunctional... inserting myself into others' emotions and reactions.

Electra2
03-25-12, 08:30 PM
Im thinking about all those who grew up with AD/HD
(or just as well other things,the point is,its makes the person different )
and were hurt dealing with kids that did not understand,
and isolation were not an issue...
Like, if parents couldnt stand seeing a child so...different and misbehaved,lonely...
and forced them outside to play with the others,where they where in turn rejected
/laught at/ bullied/ made fun of / critized so much...
how painfull that must have felt...no where to hide...
the only option is to face it,all the time...feeling rejected and wierd,blamed for things not their fault,feeling hate and failure...

I wonder what happend to those who couldnt take it anymore.
Those who where pushed back outside to face and cope with the "IRL."
I think it might lead to a lot of bad stuff...probably at least a lot more self hate...
and " not very social behaviour ", in one way or another,specially towards sertain people...!!
I think of a narsisisst like a person who becomes...Superman.:cool:
(wannabe)
Im not sure if they need to believe in it so much as they need to feel like it.
(grandiousity)
I asked a person behaving like that,they said failure was never an option for them
when they grew up,it was not accepted.
That sort of makes me doubt genetic theories.

shamrock
04-02-12, 08:16 AM
I am not allowed to post a link but if you go to the psych forums . com and look at the narcisstic pd section. There is a thread called covert narcissists and the dating game. There is a really good discussion about vulnerable narcissists there.

Sir5r1
04-20-12, 12:18 AM
My wife has BPD. What I suggest is looking at the DSM-IV it explains a lot but there are plenty of BPD folks with NPD Tendencies and there's a lot of overlap between the cluster B PD's as a whole.

Everyone is different. So much so that the proposed DSM-V actually has placed severity based on the degree someone has these characteristics.

ADHD people are on a continuum as are most every other disorder.

Interesting fact though there are lots of NPD/BPD couples it's a complimentary disorder situation.

The Other combination that's complimentary is BPD/ADHD.

Blueranne
05-12-12, 02:21 PM
Here is another link that I found very interesting.

http://www.examiner.com/article/borderline-personality-disorder-males

pechemignonne
05-12-12, 02:45 PM
Here is another link that I found very interesting.

http://www.examiner.com/article/borderline-personality-disorder-males
When did you meet my ex-boyfriend?

:p

Sir5r1
05-12-12, 05:21 PM
When did you meet my ex-boyfriend?

:p

See BPD/ADHD. We are attracted to each other!

23 years of this type of relationship for me.

pechemignonne
05-12-12, 05:27 PM
Not everyone with BPD is the same, I'd wager.

My ex was abusive and the relationship was a terrible experience for me.

But I'm glad that you found a way to make your relationship work! :)

K-Funk
06-27-12, 02:57 PM
oh no, I'm scared that this is me!!!! I have the worst self esteem in the world and constantly feel inferior. When people tell me that I'm actually OK it only very temporarily numbs the pain and I always need more.... I thought I was empathetic but maybe I'm just a narcissist at heart locked into a world of shame and the constant search for approval!!!!

Blueranne
06-27-12, 03:38 PM
I kind of think of PDs in the same way that I think of horoscopes. To some extent it can be easy to pull symptoms out of the diagnostic criteria and be able to see ourselves or others in that discription. But of course that doesnt mean that a PD diagnosis is correct.

avjgirsijdhtjhs
06-27-12, 03:54 PM
Here is another link that I found very interesting.

http://www.examiner.com/article/borderline-personality-disorder-males

Her site is gettinbetter.com (http://gettinbetter.com/articles.html). It has tons of awesome BPD articles, and also articles on other stuff that I can't comment on because I haven't read many of them.

Blueranne
06-27-12, 03:56 PM
Cool thanks! I'll check it out tonight. :)

avjgirsijdhtjhs
06-27-12, 04:00 PM
Cool thanks! I'll check it out tonight. :)

I wasn't aiming that directly at you, Blueranne, just an FYI. :)

Oh, and I also just realized that Shari Schreiber didn't write the article that you linked. She was just quoted at the top of the article and I mistook it for her having written the article.

K-Funk
06-27-12, 04:13 PM
I kind of think of PDs in the same way that I think of horoscopes. To some extent it can be easy to pull symptoms out of the diagnostic criteria and be able to see ourselves or others in that discription. But of course that doesnt mean that a PD diagnosis is correct.

yeah, I even took that two hour big ***** personality disorder official pysch assessment and I didn't come away with anything so maybe I'm imagining it. I tend to do that alot. :o

Blueranne
06-27-12, 08:22 PM
I wasn't aiming that directly at you, Blueranne, just an FYI. :)



I didn't nesicarily think you were directing it specifically to me. I was just saying thanks for the link and contributing to the thread. :)

Electra2
07-09-12, 08:29 PM
I kind of think of PDs in the same way that I think of horoscopes. To some extent it can be easy to pull symptoms out of the diagnostic criteria and be able to see ourselves or others in that discription. But of course that doesnt mean that a PD diagnosis is correct.
Have you ever tried to compare each starsign to each personality disorder ?

Daydreamin22
09-02-13, 11:10 PM
All of the egocentric/narcissistic people I know are in good places and one of them is ruthless about keeping her reputation. The other one enjoys tormenting. That's about all I have to say about them.

janiew
09-03-13, 12:23 AM
Not sure how closet vs in your face narcissism is different. I was raised by an in your face npd and she had a hollow core of insecurity. See what I mean?

Daydreamin22
09-03-13, 12:36 AM
Not sure how closet vs in your face narcissism is different. I was raised by an in your face npd and she had a hollow core of insecurity. See what I mean?

Yes.. My boss was so in your face. I was in the room with her all day long. I couldn't think straight because I wasn't used to it.