View Full Version : Dextroamphetamine to Desoxyn – Equivalent Dosage?


Vito, ADDer
04-17-12, 03:42 AM
I'm about to switch from dextroamphetamine tablets (which aren't currently available) to Desoxyn (brand, not generic meth) until the dex tablets are available again.

What I want to know is whether anyone who has direct (not hearsay) experience with both dextroamphetamine and Desoxyn can give me an idea of equivalent dosage between the two meds. That is, how much Desoxyn does it take to obtain the same effectiveness as a given dosage of dex? For example, I've seen one post wherein someone who was taking 45 mg. of dex per day needed only 20 mg. of Desoxyn to get the same effectiveness.

OK...there's one data point. That's the kind of information I'm looking for.

Qualifiers:


I realize that everyone's chemistry is different, so I don't expect that anyone else's experience is necessarily going to be the same for me. What I'm looking for is multiple inputs from folks with hands-on experience to see whether there's a general pattern of dosage equivalency. For example, is it generally true that you need less Desoxyn to get the same effectiveness as dex?



Obviously, my question only applies to folks who have found both meth and dex to be reasonably effective for them, with no adverse side effects.



Any information I get from this inquiry will be used as a general guide ONLY for estimating the amount of Desoxyn I'm likely to need for a 30-day supply, not for determining initial dosage. The dosage is something I'll determine empirically, starting with a single 5 mg. tab and gradually ramping up until I find an effective dosage.

Thanks!

tambourine-man
04-17-12, 03:59 AM
I'm about to switch from dextroamphetamine tablets (which aren't currently available) to Desoxyn (brand, not generic meth) until the dex tablets are available again.

What I want to know is whether anyone who has direct (not hearsay) experience with both dextroamphetamine and Desoxyn can give me an idea of equivalent dosage between the two meds. That is, how much Desoxyn does it take to obtain the same effectiveness as a given dosage of dex? For example, I've seen one post wherein someone who was taking 45 mg. of dex per day needed only 20 mg. of Desoxyn to get the same effectiveness.

OK...there's one data point. That's the kind of information I'm looking for.

Qualifiers:


I realize that everyone's chemistry is different, so I don't expect that anyone else's experience is necessarily going to be the same for me. What I'm looking for is multiple inputs from folks with hands-on experience to see whether there's a general pattern of dosage equivalency. For example, is it generally true that you need less Desoxyn to get the same effectiveness as dex?



Obviously, my question only applies to folks who have found both meth and dex to be reasonably effective for them, with no adverse side effects.



Any information I get from this inquiry will be used as a general guide ONLY for estimating the amount of Desoxyn I'm likely to need for a 30-day supply, not for determining initial dosage. The dosage is something I'll determine empirically, starting with a single 5 mg. tab and gradually ramping up until I find an effective dosage.

Thanks!

I didn't find much difference between the two strength wise. I went from 40mg of Dexedrine to 30mg of Desoxyn and noticed I seemed to be missing... about 10mg a day. But Desoxyn is also far more subtle. It is a much trickier conversion than you would expect. Desoxyn is, IMO, a superior medication but dosing a full day with 5mg tablets takes a lot of work.

Vito, ADDer
04-17-12, 11:27 AM
...Desoxyn is also far more subtle. It is a much trickier conversion than you would expect. Desoxyn is, IMO, a superior medication but dosing a full day with 5mg tablets takes a lot of work.tam-man:

Thanks for replying pronto, amigo.

Actually, I have no expectation, so I appreciate any inputs on the subject. As for the dosing, yeah...if the equivalency is a 1:1 match, then dosing a full day with 5 mg. tabs is going to be a pain in the butt. My normal dex dosage is 15 mg. every 6 hours, administered as one 5 mg. tab and one 10 mg. tab. (I know...it's weird, but there are no 15 mg. tabs, and the 5+10 thing works. Can't argue with success.) Anyhow, I work at the computer all day, so I can pretty easily set a timer that gets in my face every 2 hours and says, "Take your meds!" Besides, this is only a temporary thing until the dex tabs become available again. I can live with it.

I'm off to see the medicine man this morning. I'm going to ask him to write two scrips—one for Desoxyn brand and one for generic meth tabs—so I can do an A-B comparison.

Thanks again!

tambourine-man
04-17-12, 03:04 PM
At doses lower than 15mg Desoxyn seems much weaker than Dexedrine. At higher doses it begins to show its true colors as the strongest of the stimulants.

Vito, ADDer
04-17-12, 06:40 PM
At doses lower than 15mg Desoxyn seems much weaker than Dexedrine. At higher doses it begins to show its true colors as the strongest of the stimulants.Well, I ended up with a prescription for 100 tabs. Assuming the effective dosage is equivalent (that is, 1:1, Desoxyn to Dexedrine), each dose will be 15 mg.

But it's not at all clear that 15 mg. of Desoxyn will be the best dosage for me. In discussing it with my doctor, he pointed out that "the pharmacodynamics of methampetamine HCl are different from those of dextroamphetamine"—an assertion that squares with my earlier experience with Desoxyn (13 years ago). The doctor said, "Keep an open mind. You might find that, say, 15 mg. is best for the first morning dose, and then 10 mg. every 4 hours thereafter is more effective than 15 mg. every 6 hours."

There's certainly precedent for that in my experience, and it's all the more likely because the only currently available form of Desoxyn is not an extended release delivery system. (Remember the old Desoxyn Gradumet™ tablets? An inert plastic matrix that dispensed the medication over an extended period...smooooth! Sadly, Gradumet™ is extinct now. :mad:)

Anyhow, I have learned not to make any assumptions about what dosage is going to work for me. I'm going to start with 5 mg., and then ramp up until I hit the right dosage. But I do understand that you're only relating your own experience with Desoxyn, not necessarily what will work for me, and for that I'm grateful.
:thankyou:

tambourine-man
04-19-12, 12:46 AM
Well, I ended up with a prescription for 100 tabs. Assuming the effective dosage is equivalent (that is, 1:1, Desoxyn to Dexedrine), each dose will be 15 mg.

But it's not at all clear that 15 mg. of Desoxyn will be the best dosage for me. In discussing it with my doctor, he pointed out that "the pharmacodynamics of methampetamine HCl are different from those of dextroamphetamine"—an assertion that squares with my earlier experience with Desoxyn (13 years ago). The doctor said, "Keep an open mind. You might find that, say, 15 mg. is best for the first morning dose, and then 10 mg. every 4 hours thereafter is more effective than 15 mg. every 6 hours."

There's certainly precedent for that in my experience, and it's all the more likely because the only currently available form of Desoxyn is not an extended release delivery system. (Remember the old Desoxyn Gradumet™ tablets? An inert plastic matrix that dispensed the medication over an extended period...smooooth! Sadly, Gradumet™ is extinct now. :mad:)

Anyhow, I have learned not to make any assumptions about what dosage is going to work for me. I'm going to start with 5 mg., and then ramp up until I hit the right dosage. But I do understand that you're only relating your own experience with Desoxyn, not necessarily what will work for me, and for that I'm grateful.
:thankyou:

How's it going friend?

Vito, ADDer
04-19-12, 10:56 AM
I won't know until I get my hands on the meds.

Evidently, I was completely clueless about the nearly universal disdain for methamphetamine. After I got the prescription, I started calling around to all the pharmacies to check pricing. I assumed none of them actually had any in stock, and that turned out to be correct. However, I was not prepared for what happened next. Two pharmacies quoted a relatively low price per 100 tabs ($316 and $319), but cautioned me that there was no guarantee they could get it.CVS Pharmacy
Me: "HUH?!? What does that mean?"

Them: "We don't know whether our distributor carries it."

Me: "So...call them."

Them: "We can't. We have to actually send them the prescription. Then they'll tell us whether they can supply it."

Me: "How long will that take?"

Them: "Two or three days."

Me: "Just to find out whether I can get the prescription filled?"
Them: "Right."

Me: "I don't think so...but thanks anyway."
Wal-Mart had basically the same story, except that they didn't even want to order it. "Even if the distributor has it, they might not send it to us." "Why?" "Because there's an allotment. They can't exceed it...(blah, blah, blah)..." I got the impression that they just didn't want to be bothered with it.

Two other pharmacies had virtually identical prices (Walgreens $379; Costco $382). Walgreens seemed reluctant to order it, but they didn't say there would be any problem getting it. Costco was very matter of fact. "If we get your prescription by three o'clock we'll have it in two days."

Well, I couldn't get my prescription there by 3:00 p.m. So, that added a day. I won't have the meds until tomorrow.

tambourine-man
04-19-12, 03:21 PM
I've gotten mine at Wal-Mart. They can and will order it. Don't take any bs from them.

Vito, ADDer
04-19-12, 04:19 PM
I'm not sure that the availability, policies, and documentation requirements are the same in every state. This is California, where there is a corollary to Murphy's Law that goes something like, "If any process, procedure, or interaction that could normally be handled in a simple way can possibly be burdened with enough layers of bureaucracy that no one will even try to do it any more, it will."

I don't think they want to admit that they don't want to handle all of the additional paperwork for meth meds required by the clowns in Hackramento, so they make up stories about "allotments", or how long it takes to get the meds, just to discourage folks from asking for then.

These Wal-Mart and CVS pharmacists are on salary. They're employees, not proprietors. They get paid the same no matter what, so they're not going to go out of their way to do any extra work if they don't have to. They don't set pricing policy, so they can't charge more and get paid more. They have no incentive to be helpful. The question is not whether I can demand that they order the meds; rather, the question is whether I even want to give my market support to someone like that in the first place. The answer is "No."

Of course, the people at Costco are on salary too, except that I've been a regular customer there since before they were Costco (when they were Price Club)—which totals something over 20 years. The people there know me. They're not going to give me a bunch of bull.

Sure, the price is higher, but at least I'll have my meds. I'm not inclined to try to cope with my own ADDled neurochemistry while some uncooperative people reluctantly or resentfully drag their feet...er, assuming they'll actually get the meds in the first place. I got the very clear impression that the people at CVS and Wal-Mart did NOT want to order the meds, and were likely to simply sit on my scrip for a few days and then tell me, "We can't get them."

I'm already running on no meds because of the dex shortage. I just want to get back in the saddle as quickly as possible. This detour into Desoxyn is temporary...or, at least I hope that's the case. We'll see.

tambourine-man
04-20-12, 12:21 AM
I'm not sure that the availability, policies, and documentation requirements are the same in every state. This is California, where there is a corollary to Murphy's Law that goes something like, "If any process, procedure, or interaction that could normally be handled in a simple way can possibly be burdened with enough layers of bureaucracy that no one will even try to do it any more, it will."

I don't think they want to admit that they don't want to handle all of the additional paperwork for meth meds required by the clowns in Hackramento, so they make up stories about "allotments", or how long it takes to get the meds, just to discourage folks from asking for then.

These Wal-Mart and CVS pharmacists are on salary. They're employees, not proprietors. They get paid the same no matter what, so they're not going to go out of their way to do any extra work if they don't have to. They don't set pricing policy, so they can't charge more and get paid more. They have no incentive to be helpful. The question is not whether I can demand that they order the meds; rather, the question is whether I even want to give my market support to someone like that in the first place. The answer is "No."

Of course, the people at Costco are on salary too, except that I've been a regular customer there since before they were Costco (when they were Price Club)—which totals something over 20 years. The people there know me. They're not going to give me a bunch of bull.

Sure, the price is higher, but at least I'll have my meds. I'm not inclined to try to cope with my own ADDled neurochemistry while some uncooperative people reluctantly or resentfully drag their feet...er, assuming they'll actually get the meds in the first place. I got the very clear impression that the people at CVS and Wal-Mart did NOT want to order the meds, and were likely to simply sit on my scrip for a few days and then tell me, "We can't get them."

I'm already running on no meds because of the dex shortage. I just want to get back in the saddle as quickly as possible. This detour into Desoxyn is temporary...or, at least I hope that's the case. We'll see.

You nailed it. You can either be insistent or go to
A mom and pop place. Either way you shouldn't be disappointed in the med, just realize that it takes more patience and effort to find the right dose and is very subtle.

Vito, ADDer
04-20-12, 02:29 PM
tam-man:

Well, as it turned out, I got the meds yesterday after all. I called Costco on the off-chance that they were able to fill the scrip, and...ZAH!! "It's ready." Cool.

I'm not sure what method you use for determining the correct dosage, but I use science. (It's a birth defect; I'm a physicist. :D) Snap judgments are useless. Unless there are some absolutely unacceptable side effects (which I usually know for certain within two dosage events), I turn myself into a lab rat, and let science run its course. I document everything. It's just data. None of it constitutes actual information until I have a chance to review it later in light of the perspective that can only come from experience accumulated over time.

The effects of any medication are dependent on so many factors—diet, stress, other medications, day-to-day changes in body chemistry, fatigue, physical activity...etc.—that it's just silly to reach any quick conclusions based on a couple of data points.

The first criterion is, "Does this stuff work?" I already knew that Desoxyn works, based on my initial experiences in finding an effective medication 13 years ago. I never pursued it into fine-tuning the dosage because I could tell immediately that I preferred the way Dexedrine worked. So I went back to Dex. Well, Dexedrine (or even generic ER caps) isn't an option now (for me) because it's just too expensive; and dextroamphetamine tabs...well, they work fine, but they're not available due to the shortage.

So, I'm doing the lab rat thang with Desoxyn. I did one dose yesterday, and my second dose today. So far, I can understand what you mean when you say it's "subtle". Compared to dex, its effect seems to ramp up much more gradually. And even at the peak, the feeling is very different from the way I feel with dex.

Anyhow, it's premature to be blathering about my observations now. I don't want anyone to take them as facts. When I've determined what's the right dosage for me, I'll post my experiences in detail, in case they're of any use to anyone else.

Massari
04-20-12, 03:13 PM
I'm about to switch from dextroamphetamine tablets (which aren't currently available) to Desoxyn (brand, not generic meth) until the dex tablets are available again.

What I want to know is whether anyone who has direct (not hearsay) experience with both dextroamphetamine and Desoxyn can give me an idea of equivalent dosage between the two meds. That is, how much Desoxyn does it take to obtain the same effectiveness as a given dosage of dex? For example, I've seen one post wherein someone who was taking 45 mg. of dex per day needed only 20 mg. of Desoxyn to get the same effectiveness.

OK...there's one data point. That's the kind of information I'm looking for.

Qualifiers:


I realize that everyone's chemistry is different, so I don't expect that anyone else's experience is necessarily going to be the same for me. What I'm looking for is multiple inputs from folks with hands-on experience to see whether there's a general pattern of dosage equivalency. For example, is it generally true that you need less Desoxyn to get the same effectiveness as dex?


Obviously, my question only applies to folks who have found both meth and dex to be reasonably effective for them, with no adverse side effects.


Any information I get from this inquiry will be used as a general guide ONLY for estimating the amount of Desoxyn I'm likely to need for a 30-day supply, not for determining initial dosage. The dosage is something I'll determine empirically, starting with a single 5 mg. tab and gradually ramping up until I find an effective dosage.
Thanks!

It's about 1:1. The only difference is that desoxyn requires a little more self-control than dex. If you never used dex in an unhealthy way, you should have no problem switching to meth but you should expect the tentation to abuse it go up by about 30% compared to dex.

tambourine-man
04-20-12, 10:54 PM
It's about 1:1. The only difference is that desoxyn requires a little more self-control than dex. If you never used dex in an unhealthy way, you should have no problem switching to meth but you should expect the tentation to abuse it go up by about 30% compared to dex.

I'd have to disagree with here. I found Desoxyn to be the least tempting of abusable stimulants. They come exclusively in 5mg tablets and are very subtle at doses below 20mg (I never exceeded that amount). I'm certain they are exceptionally euphoric in recreational doses, but a recreational dose for a non-tolerant individual is about 50+mg. Seasoned tweakers will use 500+mg in a single injection.

Most pill poppers would prefer Adderall. Desoxyn is just too complicated to acquire and abuse.

relax21
04-21-12, 12:42 PM
It's about 1:1. The only difference is that desoxyn requires a little more self-control than dex. If you never used dex in an unhealthy way, you should have no problem switching to meth but you should expect the tentation to abuse it go up by about 30% compared to dex.

I agree with tambourine-man. I find there is no temptation to abuse methamphetamine (unless that's what someone's intent is for acquiring a script, if so they'll be disappointed). If anything, the temptation to abuse drugs goes down 30%.

If one truly understands methamphetamine, they'll know it isn't a drug to be abused, it's a drug to be respected. The effects are very dose dependent (different from amphetamine), and abusing meth by any means would suck as far as I'm concerned.

Vito, ADDer
04-21-12, 02:49 PM
It's about 1:1. The only difference is that desoxyn requires a little more self-control than dex. If you never used dex in an unhealthy way, you should have no problem switching to meth but you should expect the tentation to abuse it go up by about 30% compared to dex.Massari:

Thanks for your reply. I'm only a couple of days into my evaluation of meth, but I do have some initial observations on the effects of the medication.

So far, I have found that a 15 mg. dose is very effective, which is the same dosage I was taking with dex. That corroborates the 1:1 ratio you reported (and what tambourine-man's initial reply (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1286566&postcount=2) essentially stated). But its pacing is very different from dex. Depending on whether or what I've eaten, dex usually takes effect within about 30-45 minutes, whereas with meth the onset of noticeable effect is much more gradual; it takes almost twice as long. When the doc told me the pharmacodynamics of the two drugs are very different, he wasn’t kidding.

The peak effect on today’s morning dose was more intense than in any previous dose. I suspect that’s because I deliberately ate very little (4 ounces of yogurt, 8 ounces of Yunnan tea), just to see what would happen. The effect of the medication is quite different on an empty stomach followed by very little food. I wouldn’t say it’s unpleasant, but it convinces me that I definitely do NOT need to take a higher dose than 15 mg. This is quite potent enough.

My concentration is excellent, but it’s not the same as with dex. Actually, I think the effects of the same dex dosage (15 mg.) are less peaky. For me, dex seems to come up to full effect more quickly, and then hold there, falling off quite rapidly after 6 hours. So 15 mg. every 6 hours is just right. It doesn’t look like it’s going to work the same way with these little 5 mg. meth tablets. I’m probably going to end up taking smaller doses more frequently in order to level the peaks. I suspected that might be the case.

Regarding the potential for abuse, in my case it’s practically non-existent. I have no interest in “recreational” use of CNS stimulants. Life’s already complicated enough without adding pharmaceutically aberrant behavior to the mix. ;)

Massari
04-24-12, 01:07 PM
I'd have to disagree with here. I found Desoxyn to be the least tempting of abusable stimulants. They come exclusively in 5mg tablets and are very subtle at doses below 20mg (I never exceeded that amount). I'm certain they are exceptionally euphoric in recreational doses, but a recreational dose for a non-tolerant individual is about 50+mg. Seasoned tweakers will use 500+mg in a single injection.

Most pill poppers would prefer Adderall. Desoxyn is just too complicated to acquire and abuse.

The methyl group added on the amine provides no further improvement to dexamphetamine because dexamphetamine fits the receptor perfectly and doesn't need a mthyl. The addition of a methyl group causes stuff to stretch, for an induced fit and often binds to other things too which adds to the spirituality of the experience.

That's why you are more relaxed and comfortable because the induced fit allows for spiritual connections that a perfect fit doesn't allow:

"Methamphetamine and amphetamine were given to Allied bomber pilots to sustain them by fighting off fatigue and enhancing focus during long flights. The experiment failed because soldiers became agitated, could not channel their aggression and showed impaired judgment.[89] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methamphetamine#cite_note-history-88) Rather, dextroamphetamine (Dexedrine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dexedrine)) became the drug of choice for American bomber pilots, being used on a voluntary basis by roughly half of the United States Air Force (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Air_Force) pilots during the 1991 Gulf War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Gulf_War)"

In other words, it's less efficient but in a good/bad way because it provides a "better trip". It's a sort of trade-off so the 1:1 is an average because the ratio changes depending on what your goal is. If you are looking to go on a trip, meth is much more efficient than dex.

relax21
04-24-12, 09:17 PM
"Methamphetamine and amphetamine were given to Allied bomber pilots to sustain them by fighting off fatigue and enhancing focus during long flights. The experiment failed because soldiers became agitated, could not channel their aggression and showed impaired judgment.[89] Rather, dextroamphetamine (Dexedrine) became the drug of choice for American bomber pilots, being used on a voluntary basis by roughly half of the United States Air Force pilots during the 1991 Gulf War"

In other words, it's less efficient but in a good/bad way because it provides a "better trip". It's a sort of trade-off so the 1:1 is an average because the ratio changes depending on what your goal is. If you are looking to go on a trip, meth is much more efficient than dex.

What does this wikipedia cited source have anything to do with this thread?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you're twisting the truth by saying d-amphetamine was more useful for American bomber pilots during WWII than was d-methamphetamine or d,l-amphetamine. This is a prime example why wikipedia is not a good source and how the truth gets muddled.

tambourine-man
04-24-12, 10:38 PM
[QUOTE=Massari;1290577]The methyl group added on the amine provides no further i

So... American G.I.s faired better than Nazis... methamphetamine has no potential benefits over dextroamphetamine?

Hmm...

I think this is about as logical as that someone who takes methamphetamine is a Nazi. I'm going to need some more substantial evidence here.

relax21
04-24-12, 11:57 PM
To be as brief as possible:
Amphetamines were used during WWII by the Allies and the Axis. The Allies used amphetamine primarily (trade names Benzedrine, Dexedrine), whereas the Axis used d-methamphetamine (trade names: Pervitin, Philopon, Isophan) produced by pharmaceutical companies in Japan and Germany.

Methamphetamine and amphetamine pills were distributed to military servicemen to help them overcome fatigue from sleeplessness (not to provide them with a trip or spiritual connection*). In the German Army, methamphetamine was dispensed to soldiers in 3 mg - 6 mg doses orally to provide alertness only when sleeping was not a viable option. If dire, 12 mg of methamphetamine would be dispensed (two 6 mg doses spread out) to fatigued German soldiers to sustain up to 24 hours of wakefulness. Amphetamines were dispensed to American soldiers and pilots in the same manner, they were prescribed 5 mg - 10 mg doses at once to help sleep deprived soldiers, and were not to exceed 20 mg in a day.

*Intravenous administration of methamphetamine at 20 mg or higher may cause a so called "spiritual connection"; not low oral doses.

Vito, ADDer
04-25-12, 04:28 PM
Day 7: After considerable experimentation and tweaking, the meth dosage that's working best for me is 5 mg. every two hours. It's the closest approximation to my response to dex. I still consider dex a better medication (for me), but at least I've got the meth working. It's a temporary measure anyway.

I tried 10 mg. and 15 mg. doses, but they were far too "peaky". The 15 mg. dose turned me into a chatterbox and it definitely felt like "speeding". I have no use for such effects. My sole purpose in taking ADD medication is to optimize my focus and motivation. Meth does that well enough, but only in the smaller, more frequent dosage described above.

So, the meth-to-dex equivalency has turned out to be essentially 1:1, but only at a dosage of 5 mg. every two hours—not at 15 mg. every 6 hours, which is my usual dex dosage. It's the same average dosage, but the devil is in the details.

The meth is not without side effects. For one thing, it seems to be far more important to make sure I maintain my blood sugar level. On Day 4 (when I was trying a 15 mg. dose), I had an attack of acute hypoglycemia—severe dizziness, sweating, and queasiness bordering on nausea. Not fun. I was OK after eating, but it knocked me down for about 75 minutes. There were other factors, so I'm not "blaming" it exclusively on the meth, but I do think that it messes with my metabolism more than dex does.

It's still vastly superior to no meds at all, but I'll be glad when dex becomes available again. For one thing, the cost of meth tablets is much higher than the equivalent amount of dex tabs. What's more, meth is not listed in the formulary for the only insurance policy I've been able to find that covers ADD meds. For those reasons alone, it's not a cost-effective treatment in the long run.

But there's an even greater concern—one that I became aware of only recently: cumulative neurotoxicity, especially in combination with stress. Relatively recent research (meaning, within the last five years) indicates that methamphetamine usage can cause oxidative cellular damage, glutamate dysfunction, and ATP depletion, which compromises mitochondrial function.

The key factor is stress. Apparently the neurotoxic effects are greatly amplified under stress. (...oops, so much for meth usage under combat conditions. Looks like dex is a much better choice in a high-stress environment.) Fortunately, I'm not subject to high levels of stress, and I manage my psycho-emotional state with music and meditation. So, I'm not particularly worried about having to use meth temporarily. But the potential for neurotoxicity is one more reason why I wouldn't choose it as an ADD medication for my own long-term use.

relax21
04-25-12, 05:37 PM
The key factor is stress. Apparently the neurotoxic effects are greatly amplified under stress. (...oops, so much for meth usage under combat conditions. Looks like dex is a much better choice in a high-stress environment.)

Perhaps this is why the Germans and Japanese lost WWII :p But in all seriousness, amphetamine or methamphetamine taken under stressful conditions on top of lack of sleep is never a good idea. Methamphetamine has a proven track record of being the most superior stimulant for increasing wakefulness, but dextroamphetamine is a close second. Nowadays, methamphetamine is frowned upon in the medical community and is not indicated for Narcolepsy any longer (it's a shame).

But the potential for neurotoxicity is one more reason why I wouldn't choose it as an ADD medication for my own long-term use.

I don't know what studies you've read, but if you could send me the links via PM it would be appreciated. I've never read any studies that states low oral doses of methamphetamine daily cause neurotoxic effects. Typically, lethal doses of methamphetamine and amphetamine (used by drug addicts) are what cause neurotoxicity. Amphetamines like Dexedrine have just as much risk to become neurotoxic when abused for long periods of time and in higher than recommended doses. So, if you're worried about neurotoxicity from using Desoxyn (as prescribed) you should be just as worried about neurotoxicity from using Dexedrine (as prescribed). But I'm just letting you know there's nothing to worry about. I've read in medical literature of people who've taken 80 mg - 100 mg of Dexedrine (orally) daily for 15 years with no neurotoxicity, and people who've taken 80 mg - 100 mg of Desoxyn (orally) daily for over a decade with no neurotoxicity.

From what I gather it's "safest" to use no more than 60 mg of methamphetamine and/or amphetamine daily, although most people won't get any permanent negative effects from doses under 100 mg.

Bottom line:
Unless you're injecting, snorting, plugging, smoking your entire months prescription of Desoxyn or Dexedrine, neurotoxicity shouldn't be of any concern.

Vito, ADDer
04-25-12, 08:26 PM
relax21:

As I said, I'm not worried. I don't think my usage fits the conditions necessary for the meth to have neurotoxic effects. Nevertheless, I'm not going to use meth except as a backup when dex becomes unavailable.

Part of my hesitation about meth is due to the fact that there is some research that suggests that meth usage has adverse effects with increasing age. At least that's what I recall...I've looked at a lot of stuff in the past few day. I'll try to find it again.

I was surprised at the research that singled out meth. Like you, I was under the impression that in the kinds of doses usually prescribed for ADD, meth and dex should be equally benign as to their potential for neurotoxic effects. I've read one report (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7869099) that says "methamphetamine...is equipotent to dextroamphetamine in producing behavioral stimulant effects", although the same report shows very clearly that the two drugs behave very differently with respect to certain neurotransmitters. Apparently it's those differences that, coupled with stress, create the potential for neurotoxicity.

Caveat: I haven't normalized the doses to human body weights. Many lab experiments are notorious for using doses in mg/kg that, when adjusted for human body mass, would unquestionably constitute abuse. In that case, I agree that neurotoxic effects might not be applicable to much lower dosages. My concerns are based on the qualitative determination, coupled with the uncertainty about the effects of chronic usage, especially as I enter the "senior zone". ;)

Anyhow, I'll dig up the links and send them via PM later today.

Vito, ADDer
04-29-12, 02:19 PM
Update, Day 11: The 5 mg. every 2 hours dosage is working OK for my focus, but my motivation seems to have been slipping a bit over the past couple of days. Naturally, that makes me wonder, "Am I developing a tolerance to the medication?"

So, I've done some preliminary research on methamphetamine tolerance. As it turns out, the mechanism by which meth tolerance is effected isn't well understood. The issue is compounded by the fact that some cases apparently develop reverse tolerance.

Of course, methamphetamine tolerance is a well-known phenomenon, but all of the studies address much larger doses than what I'm taking. As far as I can tell, there are no studies at all on the development of methamphetamine tolerance at such low doses.

Eventually, I came across the now-legendary post (on a certain recreational drug use forum) that has been quoted and re-quoted ad nauseum as though it were fact — a post that made all sorts of undocumented claims about things that inhibit meth tolerance. One of the most persistent of those claims is the one that touts magnesium supplements as a tolerance inhibitor...although it could just as easily be increasing the assimilation (and therefore the potentiation) of the drug via increased pH in the GI tract (...you know...similar to the effect of Milk of Magnesia, an antacid.)

Anyhow, it's too early to tell whether there's any kind of tolerance effect happening here. It would be unwise to reach any conclusions based on a couple of data points. If I notice a steady decline in my focus or motivation over the course of, say, 1 to 2 weeks, then I might suspect that I'm developing some tolerance. But at this point, it's not even a reasonable speculation...more like a musing. :scratch:

Sickle
05-14-12, 03:22 AM
when I called about that option in my area, two of the techs at two chains threatened to call the cops for trying to buy drugs... one laughed and hung up on me, most said we won't even order that because of potentially being robbed, (like, I, the only one with an rx in the area would announce it nor do the supplies of opiates carry any more risk) but the only pharmacy that carries generic focalin which has had ups and downs with back orders on that and I am the only one around that takes that form in high quantity rx's so they knew me and said they would need to see the rx before ordering it in that specific amount.

my insurance mail order does 90 day supplies in the mail...

karbouris
05-14-12, 01:29 PM
Day 7: After considerable experimentation and tweaking, the meth dosage that's working best for me is 5 mg. every two hours. It's the closest approximation to my response to dex. I still consider dex a better medication (for me), but at least I've got the meth working. It's a temporary measure anyway.

I tried 10 mg. and 15 mg. doses, but they were far too "peaky". The 15 mg. dose turned me into a chatterbox and it definitely felt like "speeding". I have no use for such effects. My sole purpose in taking ADD medication is to optimize my focus and motivation. Meth does that well enough, but only in the smaller, more frequent dosage described above.

So, the meth-to-dex equivalency has turned out to be essentially 1:1, but only at a dosage of 5 mg. every two hours—not at 15 mg. every 6 hours, which is my usual dex dosage. It's the same average dosage, but the devil is in the details.

The meth is not without side effects. For one thing, it seems to be far more important to make sure I maintain my blood sugar level. On Day 4 (when I was trying a 15 mg. dose), I had an attack of acute hypoglycemia—severe dizziness, sweating, and queasiness bordering on nausea. Not fun. I was OK after eating, but it knocked me down for about 75 minutes. There were other factors, so I'm not "blaming" it exclusively on the meth, but I do think that it messes with my metabolism more than dex does.

It's still vastly superior to no meds at all, but I'll be glad when dex becomes available again. For one thing, the cost of meth tablets is much higher than the equivalent amount of dex tabs. What's more, meth is not listed in the formulary for the only insurance policy I've been able to find that covers ADD meds. For those reasons alone, it's not a cost-effective treatment in the long run.

But there's an even greater concern—one that I became aware of only recently: cumulative neurotoxicity, especially in combination with stress. Relatively recent research (meaning, within the last five years) indicates that methamphetamine usage can cause oxidative cellular damage, glutamate dysfunction, and ATP depletion, which compromises mitochondrial function.

The key factor is stress. Apparently the neurotoxic effects are greatly amplified under stress. (...oops, so much for meth usage under combat conditions. Looks like dex is a much better choice in a high-stress environment.) Fortunately, I'm not subject to high levels of stress, and I manage my psycho-emotional state with music and meditation. So, I'm not particularly worried about having to use meth temporarily. But the potential for neurotoxicity is one more reason why I wouldn't choose it as an ADD medication for my own long-term use.
Thats also symptoms of CNS overstimulation.

Vito, ADDer
05-14-12, 01:38 PM
Thats also symptoms of CNS overstimulation.
...er, when you say "that's", exactly which "that" are you referring to? You quoted a rather large post. Precisely which part of the post are you saying reports symptoms of CNS overstimulation?

retupmock
05-15-12, 10:24 PM
I've also found the dosing to be similar to dextroamphetamine. My max dose on the dex was 10mg twice a day, and it seems to be about the same with the methamphetamine. Though I do have to say, at 5mg and 10mg, methamphetamine is almost too sedating. Pretty sure I could fall asleep if I went to lie down. The great thing I've found though is no "crash" and the anxiety associated with it that I would commonly get on dex, and especially Adderall.

Vito, ADDer
05-16-12, 12:25 AM
I've also found the dosing to be similar to dextroamphetamine. My max dose on the dex was 10mg twice a day, and it seems to be about the same with the methamphetamine. Though I do have to say, at 5mg and 10mg, methamphetamine is almost too sedating. Pretty sure I could fall asleep if I went to lie down. The great thing I've found though is no "crash" and the anxiety associated with it that I would commonly get on dex, and especially Adderall.
See now, that post just perfectly illustrates why it is utterly useless to make absolute assertions about what kind of an effect any give medication is going to have for all people.

The condition wherein a CNS stimulant sedates the subject is called the "paradox effect", because that's not what a stimulant is supposed to do in "normal" humanoids. But ADDers are special humanoids. ;)

For my part, the medications have effects that are almost exactly the reverse of retupmock's experience. No amount of methamphetamine can sedate me; the more I take, the more wired I get. On the other hand, dextroamphetamine in excess of about 20 mg. just knocks me out.

Anxiety-wise, I get quite anxious on meth. It's tolerable, but not ideal; whereas dex provides smooth and mellow motivation and focus. Nevertheless, both medications work for me at an average dosage of 5 mg. every two hours...the difference being that I'm limited to 5 mg. doses of meth, whereas the ideal dosage of dex for me is 15 mg. every 6 hours, taken as one 5 mg. + one 10 mg. in either ER cap or IR tablet form (generics).

As far as Adderall is concerned, nothing about it worked for me. It was a drag from start to finish. But I know that some folks swear by it, and more power to them.

You've just got to figure out what works for you, and go with that.

retupmock
05-16-12, 12:49 AM
See now, that post just perfectly illustrates why it is utterly useless to make absolute assertions about what kind of an effect any give medication is going to have for all people.

The condition wherein a CNS stimulant sedates the subject is called the "paradox effect", because that's not what a stimulant is supposed to do in "normal" humanoids. But ADDers are special humanoids. ;)

For my part, the medications have effects that are almost exactly the reverse of retupmock's experience. No amount of methamphetamine can sedate me; the more I take, the more wired I get. On the other hand, dextroamphetamine in excess of about 20 mg. just knocks me out.

Anxiety-wise, I get quite anxious on meth. It's tolerable, but not ideal; whereas dex provides smooth and mellow motivation and focus. Nevertheless, both medications work for me at an average dosage of 5 mg. every two hours...the difference being that I'm limited to 5 mg. doses of meth, whereas the ideal dosage of dex for me is 15 mg. every 6 hours, taken as one 5 mg. + one 10 mg. in either ER cap or IR tablet form (generics).

As far as Adderall is concerned, nothing about it worked for me. It was a drag from start to finish. But I know that some folks swear by it, and more power to them.

You've just got to figure out what works for you, and go with that.

Absolutely. These medications are very idiosyncratic. But I do find similarities between my experiences and other people's experiences. For example, T-man's experiences very much match my own. Another thing I'd like to add is that methamphetamine is very very mild, at the doses that I'm taking. Perhaps I'll try 15mg and 20mg to see what effect that has on focus, concentration, and motivation, but so far, it's not motivating or physically stimulating, which is actually perfect for me, since the concentration and focus is what I'm looking for. From my experience, I can't stress enough how there is literally no come down. I've had caffeine crashes worse than this.

One thing I'm curious about, is that stimulants, including Desoxyn, seem to make me not want to socialize, at all. Normally, I have an endless stream of jokes and sarcastic comments to make during conversations, but stimulants almost make me not want to talk. I just feel like I have nothing to say. Wondering why this happens.

Vito, ADDer
05-16-12, 02:09 PM
...One thing I'm curious about, is that stimulants, including Desoxyn, seem to make me not want to socialize, at all. Normally, I have an endless stream of jokes and sarcastic comments to make during conversations, but stimulants almost make me not want to talk. I just feel like I have nothing to say. Wondering why this happens.
I dunno...maybe that's your idiosyncratic version of the "paradox effect". :D

It sort of worked that way for me at the dosage I finally settled on as being the most effective. The reason I say "sort of" is that it wasn't so much that I didn't want to talk; rather, I was just intensely focused on my work, and there was no need to talk.

But that definitely was not the case with larger doses. The first 15 mg. dose of Desoxyn I took in my recent bout with the medication turned me into a motormouth. Even a 10 mg. dose had me doing the chatterbox thang. My best results were with one 5 mg. dose every two hours. With six of those doses, I was able to maintain a pretty even level of motivation and focus for 12 hours. Despite the relatively minor side effects I described in my previous post, I was in big-time productivity mode.

Anyhow, it's good to know that I now have a backup medication I can use successfully if affordable dex ever becomes unavailable again. The thing is, based on the prevailing cultural prejudice against methamphetamine, it seems more likely that meth will become extinct before dex does. :( That really would be a shame. It's definitely a useful medication under the right conditions.

retupmock
05-17-12, 08:39 PM
My best results were with one 5 mg. dose every two hours. With six of those doses, I was able to maintain a pretty even level of motivation and focus for 12 hours. Despite the relatively minor side effects I described in my previous post, I was in big-time productivity mode.

Anyhow, it's good to know that I now have a backup medication I can use successfully if affordable dex ever becomes unavailable again. The thing is, based on the prevailing cultural prejudice against methamphetamine, it seems more likely that meth will become extinct before dex does. :( That really would be a shame. It's definitely a useful medication under the right conditions.

Entertaining the notion that Desoxyn's duration of action is about 4-6 hours, I would think that using 5mg every two hours would cause a significant overlap, akin to having peak effects similar to a 10mg dose, for at least part of the time period.

What is the difference between the peak effects of a single 10mg dose, and the overlap (that I hypothesize exists) from taking two 5mg doses, 2 hours apart?

Vito, ADDer
05-17-12, 10:46 PM
Entertaining the notion that Desoxyn's duration of action is about 4-6 hours, I would think that using 5mg every two hours would cause a significant overlap, akin to having peak effects similar to a 10mg dose, for at least part of the time period.

What is the difference between the peak effects of a single 10mg dose, and the overlap (that I hypothesize exists) from taking two 5mg doses, 2 hours apart?
Your premise is based on the assumption that a 4-6 hour duration of effectiveness is universally applicable to all humanoids. That's simply not the case. It's certainly not true in my case. Everyone is different.

We're not talking about 50 mg. doses, where it's likely true that anyone who takes it is going to be speeding his brains out. We're talking about threshold amounts to optimize focus and motivation. I tried 5 mg. at intervals of 1 hour, 1.5 hours, 2 hours, 3 hours, and 4 hours. More frequent than 1 dose per 2 hours was too much; less frequent than that wasn't enough.

I wouldn't presume to say what would work for anyone else. I'm just reporting what worked for me. :D

retupmock
05-18-12, 06:19 PM
Your premise is based on the assumption that a 4-6 hour duration of effectiveness is universally applicable to all humanoids. That's simply not the case. It's certainly not true in my case. Everyone is different.

We're not talking about 50 mg. doses, where it's likely true that anyone who takes it is going to be speeding his brains out. We're talking about threshold amounts to optimize focus and motivation. I tried 5 mg. at intervals of 1 hour, 1.5 hours, 2 hours, 3 hours, and 4 hours. More frequent than 1 dose per 2 hours was too much; less frequent than that wasn't enough.

I wouldn't presume to say what would work for anyone else. I'm just reporting what worked for me. :D

Understood.

karbouris
05-21-12, 03:28 PM
...er, when you say "that's", exactly which "that" are you referring to? You quoted a rather large post. Precisely which part of the post are you saying reports symptoms of CNS overstimulation?

>The meth is not without side effects. For one thing, it seems to be far more important to make sure I maintain my blood sugar level. On Day 4 (when I was trying a 15 mg. dose), I had an attack of acute hypoglycemia—severe dizziness, sweating, and queasiness bordering on nausea. Not fun. I was OK after eating, but it knocked me down for about 75 minutes> This! lol.

ManInBlack
09-15-12, 02:54 AM
Hey there! I don't post on here very often, but do read the forums quite a bit. Anywho: Since 2003 I have been prescribed, in order: adderall 15mg Xr, 15mg ir, Dexedrine brand Spansules 15mg, Dexedrine brand 5mg (I sure miss those!), Barr Dex. 5mg (crap), Barr 10mg ER (crap) [circa 2004, when the pharmacy didn't have GSK in stock], Mallinckrodt dex ir (miss those too, they were just as good or better than GSK), Penid (Korean Ritalin while studying abroad and my Dex prescription ran out), Focalin 5mg brand, "tried" Vyvanse and Concerta, Desoxyn 5mg brand, and now generic Desoxyn.

After GSK and Mallinckrodt stopped making 5mg tabs I was put back on Barr tablets. They are nowhere near the quality, akin to buying generic "Great Value" brand food at Wal-Mart. So I asked my doctor to switch to Focalin, figuring it would be similar to GSK since it is the D isomer and Penid make me feel crazy. This was a mistake; a month of my life was literally wasted. It felt like I was on cocaine that lasted for 5 hours. Mind racing, thoughts scattered everywhere. Horrible stuff for me. So I finally asked my doctor of 6 years to try Desoxyn. He said "okay" without hesitation.

I stopped at Walgreens and the tech was a jerk, saying it would take 2 weeks to get. Following this I went right to CVS and they were very friendly and the tech said "We'll have it Monday" (this was a Saturday night I believe).

Oh the anticipation! A legal prescription to the evil "Meth" that fills the nightly news! Oh, and I do not abuse my medications. Except when my first doctor, combined with my initial enthusiasm and the stress of freshman year in college, granted my request for 3x15mg GSK spansules + 2x5mg GSK tabs or 55mg/day. I did push the limits to see how this stuff would affect me, sometimes taking 2 days worth at a time. In retrospect, I can not see the logic in that. It let to OCD and social anxiety. ANYWHO...I switched doctors and for the next 8 years stayed at the 25mg mark.

That's my background with ADHD meds. So, back to the topic. Upon taking my first dose of Desoxyn it felt as if the fog lifted off my brain. I was clear headed, had controlled focus, in that I was able to choose what to focus on instead of being locked into one thing on Dexedrine. It was such a change and my enthusiam led my older brother to switch to it from his Adderrall 20s he'd been taking for 10 years.

The main differences In Desoxyn and Dexedrine (the GSK 5mg tabs that were around for over 60 years)
- Onset: Desoxyn gradually "sneaks up" on me, as opposed to the kick of Dexies. It's almost like a time released version. Very little physical agitation and very sedating. If all the stigma of methamphetamine didn't exist this would be a first line med instead of adderall. Generic Desoxyn is basically the same for me (I was switched to it unknowingly by CVS mail order when the generic was released).

It lasts much longer than amphetamine and d-amphetamine; I rarely take the 25mg I am prescribed. 10-20 is more than sufficient. In fact, over the years I had nearly 4 months of extra Desoxyn left over. This never happened th Dexedrine. Unlike Dexedrine I never have days where I need to take an extra amount to get enough focus (as in taking 40mg while prescribed 25 during times when I need to get a project done, etc). Of course this is all subjective, but both my older brother and I agree D-amphetamine is about 2/3 the strength of Desoxyn in terms of focus. It's much more CNS affecting than anything else out there

Vyvanse is close to the subtleness of Desoxyn but not quite there. And if Vyvanse is taken after 11 AM I can forget about sleep that night.

There are no downsides to Desoxyn FOR MYSELF although I do miss the enthusiastic focus of the original Dexedrine tablets. Well, the cost. I pay $30 for my 90 day script (450) Desoxyn generic but the form says "Your insurance saved you $750 (or so)" so I can not imagine taking it without insurance...

IMO Dexedrine has much more abuse potential than Desoxyn and pharmaceutical levels (100mg or less) BUT I can see why it is abused on the black market. Much more can be taken with less peripheral side effects compared to Dexedrine. This is why Dexedrine was abused much more than methamphetamine tablets during the first amphetamine craze of 1935-1972. We've all heard of the famous ones: Johnny Cash, Elvis, The Beatles, Judy Garland and on and on who all took Dexedrine even when Desoxyn and other methamphetamine preparations were available. Dexedrine was marketed as an anti-depressant (aka it makes one happy aka high) whereas methamphetamine was directed towards obesity. Maybe it also has to do with it being a patent-less drug since it was first synthesized in 1919 by a Japanese fellow.

As far as WWII and the US military goes: Germany was the only country to not take amphetamines after platoons of men were being captured by russians carrying no ammunition. Psychosis caused them to fire at imaginary enemies and Hitler banned it (although his doctor was giving it to him every day unknowingly). The US believed Benzedrine increased morale and was one of the keys to winning the war. The Japanese used it to increase morale as well, but their definition of morale was never surrender.

If you search the net there is a document current USAF pilots must sign consenting to the use of "Go Pills" and "No-Go Pills" aka Dexedrine and Ativan. Oh the government hypocrisy. In fact this was part of the controversial case of 2 US soldiers who bombed a group of Canadians on accident in Afghanistan.

Apologies for the odd format of this post. I am typing on my iPad and it's a bit awkward!

Blackstar
01-14-14, 04:44 AM
Whoa. Pricey.

Obetrol
02-05-14, 08:48 PM
I think Desoxyn as a prescription medication is totally unneccesary and should be taken off the market. With Dextroamphetamine IR 10 mg tabs, and Vyvanse up to 70 mg available no one really needs Desoxyn. An old medical book from 1963 I have says that Desoxyn and D-Amphetamine differ only slightly in degree. CNS stimulant effects of Desoxyn are slightly greater and cardiovascular action is slightly less than amphetamine. The standard doses of Dex or Desoxyn are the same, 5 mg or 10 mg two or three times per day. The old book also says desoxyn is used for treatment for alcoholism, and amazingly it used to be sold as a 20mg/mL solution for injection and also an elixir!

The reason street stimulants are so much stronger is that the mg levels users ingest are 10-1000 times of the pills. But, D-Amphetamine is probably superior for ADD because it increases dopamine in the prefrontal cortex, which is an action that reduces euphoria since it limits dopamine input to the Nucleus Accumbens but the prefrontal cortex helps you get work done and maintain self control and appropriate decision making. Desoxyn is devoid of this natural break on euphoria from the Nucleus Accumbens and Desoxyn's greater action on serotonin release does not help ADD symptons, but probably increases euphoria. Also, the boiling point of D-Amphetamine is so high that it cannot be smoked unlike D-Methamphetamine. But, Desoxyn should cross the blood brain barrier sooner and start working earlier than D-amphetamine.