View Full Version : Dual N Back - Working Memory


madadder
07-28-12, 08:00 PM
I am very curious to know how fellow ADHDers are at this game. There have been studies showing that practicing this game actually improves working memory and the improvements are transferable to other real world applications, like reading, mental math, or even conversations. They say that with most brain games, you simply get better at the brain game and don't really improve your mind.

I started yesterday, and I have a difficult time with D2B (D = Double stimuli, sound and visual. 2B = Remembering 2 turns back). I'm at about 60-75% average while sometimes it forces me down to D1B. I did get a good enough score on D2B to move on to D3B, but I got a whopping 0% on that one :). I've incorporated this game into my morning routine along with cardio exercise, meditation, and studying.

The average improvement during a study was D5B after 19 days, 20 sessions a day. They also say that your ability in this game correlates to your IQ to a certain degree.

If there is interest in this game I will post on my improvements with this game and if I see any improvement in my working memory or not. I would love to hear about others who try this game themselves and see if it helps your working memory.

http://cognitivefun.net/test/5 - Dual n back test

http://www.gwern.net/DNB%20FAQ - Dual n back FAQ

madadder
07-28-12, 09:18 PM
I just took the IQ test linked in this forum: http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87902

I scored 115. It's the first one I've taken and I feel like I could have done much better. I plan on taking the Mensa Home Test after, or, if I can achieve D6B or D7B and seeing how my score improves. I know the scoring criteria between the two are different, but it works for my baseline.

fracturedstory
07-28-12, 10:10 PM
Any brain training is good. I'm not sure how it benefits ADHD in the long term, memory wise but short term when playing a game that involves memory, addition and thinking logically it improves it. Thing is I never keep practising it to know it'll do for sure.

I suppose I can try those exercises and see how I do.

keliza
07-28-12, 11:26 PM
I barely got through 30 seconds of the demo before I was so overwhelmed that I had to quit. I didn't even try taking the actual test, the demo itself was enough to turn me off. I could try to focus on just the audio or just the visual, but the two together was too much.

I am really stressed out with everything going on in my life this weekend, though, so maybe I will try it again in a week or so once things settle down. Maybe then my attention span won't be completely fried out just by trying to juggle my daily tasks and to-do's!

ConcertaParent
07-29-12, 03:15 PM
Another study found that doing DNB only two days a week for 40 minutes was better than every day for 20 minutes. I was trying DNB for my ADHD child, but decided to do a commercial program seven days a week during the one-month subscription.
The average improvement during a study was D5B after 19 days, 20 sessions a day.

Flip_Horrorshow
07-29-12, 11:29 PM
lol 22.62% correct, I really didn't understand what they were asking for. And typical ADD sorta kicked in. :lol:

Your next test will be decreased to 1-back

oneup
07-30-12, 05:15 AM
I like brain games that make me feel smart...dual and back just makes me feel dumb, and very confused.

There's the one mode that is really kinda easy, or was for me, but then it switches to the other mode...after 3 games of scores along the lines of 70/15 100/20 85/10, I gave up. Maybe it gets better with practice (and not playing while tired)? Usually I do decently well on brain games too...very discouraging game though that dual n back.

madadder
07-30-12, 09:19 AM
It's something you just have to keep trying no matter how bad you do. At first I found it ridiculously hard, even at D2B. After a few days I'm able to do D3B. Then, something clicked all of the sudden and I was able to do D3B with ease and I got 91%. I didn't do anything special, I just kept trying and it got easier. I'm keeping a log of my improvement and so far each day has shown an increase in accuracy %. I am medicated, btw, but still in the earlier stages of strattera. So perhaps after I'm fully titrated up i'll show more improvement.

I'd like to see more people try this, it can be good for you

eclectic beagle
07-30-12, 11:30 AM
I barely got through 30 seconds of the demo before I was so overwhelmed that I had to quit. I didn't even try taking the actual test, the demo itself was enough to turn me off. I could try to focus on just the audio or just the visual, but the two together was too much.

I am really stressed out with everything going on in my life this weekend, though, so maybe I will try it again in a week or so once things settle down. Maybe then my attention span won't be completely fried out just by trying to juggle my daily tasks and to-do's!

I think there was a study done that doing one or another was as effective as doing both. Dual N Back has its criticisms, that's not to devalue it completely.

madadder
08-02-12, 11:32 PM
I've continued to play and am improving slightly. Today it was just a little bit easier than before. For some reason my brain was just able to keep up with D3B for the most part unlike before. I wasn't so overwhelmed by it today. It is frustrating, but that frustration is your brain sweating and improving itself. I've also noticed that when I meditate, exercise, play dual n back, and study in the morning. I am a much more coherent throughout the day. I'm more fun to talk to, ideas pop up more in my head, I don't run into dead ends in conversations as much and have leading questions for people more often, and I've actually made a stronger relationship with a co-worker just within the last few days because of my change. The only problem is getting to bed early enough to do these things in the morning! If I'm too tired in the morning it just doesnt happen lol. A couple days I failed to do my routine in the morning, and I return to my old deer in the headlights, awkward self =(.

Day 1: D2B avg 70
Day 2: D3B avg 49
Day 3: D3B avg 62
Day 4: D3B avg 68
Day 5: D3B avg 66
Day 6: Not played
Day 7: D3B avg 73 - 5 games

madadder
08-09-12, 09:24 PM
My doctor switched me to concerta and I took my first dose today. There have been many benefits throughout the day, but I got my first 100% correct on 3 back today.

Edit: make that 2 100%'s and 75% at 4 back

jhank26
08-09-12, 09:50 PM
I am a much more coherent throughout the day. I'm more fun to talk to, ideas pop up more in my head, I don't run into dead ends in conversations as much and have leading questions for people more often, and I've actually made a stronger relationship with a co-worker just within the last few days because of my change. The only problem is getting to bed early enough to do these things in the morning! If I'm too tired in the morning it just doesnt happen lol. A couple days I failed to do my routine in the morning, and I return to my old deer in the headlights, awkward self =(.

Same deal with me. I'm doing meditation, then Dual N Back, then study. But I'm having the same sleep issues. I'm going to start exercising to see if that wakes my brain up in the morning, along with going back on coffee. Sucks, I just kicked my habit too :( I've even cut back on the Adderall in the afternoons and nights, but still my brain kicks into overdrive about 5 p.m. If I was like this the whole day I'd have cured a cancer by tomorrow night. Have you tried to Dual N Back when you're tired? I still feel improved, just not as confident and quick in my responses.

Anyway started using this program last year consistently for a few months. I felt like it actually did help my working memory. Stopped when college started, and I have gone back to it because I am increasingly worried about my short term memory. Since I am on summer break I can do 10 minutes in the morning, 20 minutes at night. Only been doing it for a week, but got decent results. I've gone from a daily average of 3.75, max of 4.2 to 4.25 daily average and a max of 4.75. I started at D3B at 60% and today I'm at D5B 70%.

I also do the hardest NY Times sudoku online and try to get under 10 minutes which I consider for me to be good, and under 20 is acceptable.

madadder
08-09-12, 10:02 PM
Wow that's very quick improvement. What were you doing with dnb last year before you stopped? I read a post from someone else who had quit for a year or so and then resumed as well. He quickly rose back up to where he had left off before. What website do you use for dual n back? I was just looking through these forums and I noticed a couple of things that caught my attention. Have you heard of the Dore program? Or neurofeedback?

jhank26
08-09-12, 10:18 PM
What were you doing with dnb last year before you stopped? I read a post from someone else who had quit for a year or so and then resumed as well. He quickly rose back up to where he had left off before. What website do you use for dual n back? I was just looking through these forums and I noticed a couple of things that caught my attention. Have you heard of the Dore program? Or neurofeedback?

That may have been me posting about it. Truthfully, I worked everyday for around 4 months and I think I was doing a little above where I am now, maybe up to 8 (barely) for a max, average was 7. For around the last 9 months or so I have been working on it probably about 2 days a month if I'm lucky. It's just something I know I should be doing, but don't or get distracted (It's almost like I got ADHD or something:). I got a Mac now so I'll have to dig the other computer out of storage and check the scores. I just went here and downloaded it. http://brainworkshop.sourceforge.net/#tutorial

Going to check out Dore right now. Neurofeedback has got me excited, the only problem is of course $ and time. College does not help with either of those till much later. Probably the quickest I'll get there is if I start doing research myself.

madadder
08-09-12, 10:36 PM
Yea. Thanks for the link. I'm going to check that out, because I see people posting their scores of 3.75, etc., and I never know what that means. I'm going to see if my insurance will pay for neurofeedback. I don't know how much Dore costs, and I don't know if you have to go to one of their centers initially or not. I just found out about it a few minutes ago. Apparently it works by improving the cerebellum (the skills center) which is closely tied to the cerebrum (thinking part of the brain). Supposedly, when you improve the cerebellum it makes learning easier and more efficient.

I'm skeptical, and the Dore thread on these forums has like 2,000 posts and I couldn't find any posts clearly outlining their improvements. I'd spend more time investigating, but I have to get an assignment done tonight :P.

madadder
08-09-12, 11:00 PM
And yet another thing to add to the list of possibilities is the Chadd support group. As I continue to look there seems to be more and more support available for people with ADHD that I never bothered to click on before.

http://www.chadd.org/