View Full Version : Unrefreshing sleep, early waking insomnia, fatigue - a possible reason


avjgirsijdhtjhs
09-08-12, 02:23 PM
Quoting a couple posts on some stuff I found recently so that more people people might see it.

http://oi49.tinypic.com/33wvbq9.jpg

Another possibility (from here (http://www.clinical-depression.co.uk/dlp/understanding-depression/understanding-depression/)):

http://oi45.tinypic.com/dp8pro.jpg

What dreams do

If you are, or have been depressed, you may have noticed that you ruminate, or worry a lot during those periods. Typically, these ruminations are emotionally-arousing as they are carried out using 'All or Nothing thinking' (more on this later in the section) and a negative bias. That is, you have a thought and you feel unpleasant after it - anxious, angry or helpless.
The trouble with this sort of emotional arousal is that it doesn't do anything. The thought creates the emotional reaction (usually anxiety or anger) and that's it.
What this does is leave an uncompleted 'loop' in the brain's limbic (emotional) system.
Normally, the emotion would be 'played through' by action being taken. For example: You think "That's a tiger in the bushes", feel anxious, then run away. The cycle has been completed. Or, someone annoys you, you shout at them, and the cycle is completed.
(By the way, we are not advocating the 'playing out' of anger as a therapeutic technique. All that does is makes people more angry!)

But what happens when the cycle doesn't complete?

When these emotionally arousing introspections remain incomplete at the onset of sleep then the brain needs to 'do something' with the emotional 'loops' that have been started.
What it does is create scenarios that allow those loops to complete. We call them dreams. The dream acts out, in metaphor, a situation that will allow the emotional loop to be completed and therefore 'flushed' from the brain. In other words, an imaginary experience whose pattern resembles the 'real life' one enough to create the same emotional reaction.
Normally, this does its job, and everything stays in balance.
However, because you do so much more ruminating, or introspecting, when depressed, the brain has to increase the amount of dreaming you do. And before long you are:


Spending too much time in dream sleep (Rapid Eye Movement - REM) and missing out on physically-rejuvenating Slow Wave Sleep.
Depleting your hormonal system with extended night-time emotional arousal.
Exhausting your 'orientation response' - a crucial brain activity that allows you to change your focus of attention and so motivate yourself. It is also a key part of concentration.

Depressive thinking styles mean more arousal

Depressive thinking styles will tend to cause more negative emotional arousal, and therefore more dreaming. This extra dreaming is to try to 'clear the brain' for the next day, but because our negative arousals are excessive when depressed, our natural rhythms find it hard to cope with this "over-dreaming":

Why is over-dreaming bad for me?

Basically, because dreaming is hard work.
Dreaming itself is not a restful activity. Dreaming is called 'paradoxical sleep' because brain wave patterns are similar to those of the brain when completely awake.
Dreaming is a state of arousal.
As far as much of your brain is concerned, your dream is real. So adrenaline and other stress hormones in your system will be active in the body.
This is a double edged sword, because over-dreaming, as well as using up these hormones and energy, is actually making it harder for the body to make more. As you try to flush out the incomplete emotions, you spend more time in REM sleep, and therefore less time in deep sleep, when your body should be recuperating in preparation for producing these hormones for the next day.
So if you are over-dreaming you're not resting but flooding your system with adrenaline and other stress hormones. If most of your sleep consists of dreams, your body and mind will begin to feel very tired during the day. Depressed people often report that the worst time of day is first thing in the morning.
Sometimes a depressed person may start waking up early in the morning and not be able to get back to sleep. This may be a way of the body trying to cut down on over-dreaming in order to try and lift depression.
This depletion is also why depressed people often feel at their worst first thing in the morning.
As the day progresses, their hormones replenish themselves and their energy levels increase, and they are better able to motivate themselves.

Been doing some reading. Looks like worrying needs to be cut down on in order to cut down on excessive (and non-refreshing) worry(and maybe other emotional arousal)-driven REM sleep (expectation theory of dreaming (http://www.scribd.com/doc/16075687/Dreaming-to-Forget-The-REM-state-is-at-the-core-of-being-human-)) and get enough refreshing stage 3 and 4 deep sleep to wake up refreshed and energetic and motivated, and that important wants (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Givens#Description_of_the_Human_Given_Approa ch) (and needs like this stuff (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs) i figure, especially towards the bottom of the pyramid because those are potential huge sources of worry) are one of the biggest sources of worry. Or at least those are my thoughts at the moment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MA3Pc22WmwQ

avjgirsijdhtjhs
09-18-12, 01:10 PM
I've been looking for something other than SSRIs and other prescription drugs that might help with getting more deep\refreshing sleep.

Click here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serotonin_syndrome) for info about a possible complication of combining 5-HTP with serotonergic drugs.

http://oi46.tinypic.com/34e5449.jpg

avjgirsijdhtjhs
09-20-12, 02:47 PM
I've been looking for something other than SSRIs and other prescription drugs that might help with getting more deep\refreshing sleep.

Click here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serotonin_syndrome) for info about a possible complication of combining 5-HTP with serotonergic drugs.

http://oi46.tinypic.com/34e5449.jpg

I took a one hundred milligram capsule of 5-HTP about 15-20 minutes before bed on each of the last two nights and didn't notice any kind of anything from haven taken it.

Tonight, the green LED alarm clock will be turned off. I'm not expecting that this will do it, but I read some stuff today about how green light should be avoided at night (because of it's effect on melatonin), and how red is preferable for nighttime use, so it's worth a try.

avjgirsijdhtjhs
09-25-12, 03:04 PM
Same stuff as in the first post, but with explanation and elaboration.

http://oi45.tinypic.com/13zz4w8.jpg

stuff (http://www.lift-depression.com/lift-depression/)

The page that the depression cycle pic is from. (http://www.lift-depression.com/sleep-depression/the-cycle-of-depression/)

Click on the "needs" in the column that's on the left side of this page (http://www.lift-depression.com/our-needs/review-your-emotional-needs/) ("security" through "meaning and purpose"), that the creators of the list termed "Human Givens" for explanation and elaboration on them.

Fuzzy12
09-26-12, 08:45 AM
Avj. I feel for you. I hate feeling tired all the time. No amount of will power, motivation, etc. can help if you are physically tired.

The only anti depressant that didn't make me stupidly tired was Sertraline. Venlafaxine was the worst. I couldn't keep my eyes open. Cymbalta is better but it still makes me very tired.

I've read something similar about dreaming and depression. I dream a lot (I think) and I've always got pretty bad nightmares. Always have done and I've never really had much of refreshing sleep. And I do feel worst in the morning. Funnily enough if I nap for a few hours in the day (which I hate) I actually feel so much better.

I'm not sure if you've tried flax seeds to help you with your energy levels. When I used to have a big of ground flax seeds on my breakfast cereal it used to work wonders for my energy levels.

Hope you find something that works for you. it sucks being tired all the time.

avjgirsijdhtjhs
09-30-12, 07:48 PM
Looks like hypothyroidism, chronic fatigue syndrome, and fibromyalgia can also screw up deep sleep.

pic (http://oi48.tinypic.com/k4y39c.jpg)

book link (http://books.google.com/books?id=AV_7ltX0WEAC&pg=PA339&lpg=PA339&dq=%22unrefreshing+sleep%22+hypothyroidism&source=bl&ots=vSics5ukyc&sig=2pQ4RWRZ4DUbhhRXPRbTjM2Xw-k&hl=en&sa=X&ei=rtJoUPO0PKLn0QH1uYDIDQ&sqi=2&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22unrefreshing%20sleep%22%20hypothyroidism&f=false)

hypothyroid thyroid CFS fibro fog apnea stage stages 3 three gamma 4 four delta hashimoto hashimotos hashimoto's thyroiditis autoimmune adrenal insufficiency depression atypical

avjgirsijdhtjhs
11-01-12, 05:00 PM
I've never done a 24 hour cortisol test (or any kind of cortisol test for that matter), but I wonder if chronic early waking insomnia in people that are stressed with important things to worry about might be caused by an increased pre-waking rise in cortisol during the night. And maybe the difficulty or inability to fall back asleep after waking too early is exacerbated by a stronger cortisol awakening response (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22652338).

pic 1 (http://oi50.tinypic.com/2w7r13q.jpg)

pic 2 (http://oi48.tinypic.com/30bdwl3.jpg)

So if a person's early waking and inability to fall back asleep is caused by excess cortisol, then maybe trying to dampen the rise might help. I've tried taking a half gram time released Vitamin C (http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200304/vitamin-c-stress-buster) pill (with an 8 hour release claim) at bedtime a few times in the past, hoping it might stop my waking too early, but it didn't, although that may just be because no more (or a negligible and ineffective amount of) Vitamin C was still being absorbed.

One thing I haven't tried though is taking Vitamin C as soon as I wake in the morning. Maybe taking a half gram time released Vitamin C pill and an instant release Vitamin C pill (possibly chewed, or two instant release pills with one chewed and one not chewed, in addition to the time released pill) (or some other cortisol lowering supplement) immediately upon waking might help with falling back to sleep.

Or maybe it won't help, even if perhaps elevated cortisol is the cause of both the person's waking too early and the inability to fall back asleep, but those are my thoughts though.

SweetCode
11-02-12, 09:01 AM
I've never done a 24 hour cortisol test (or any kind of cortisol test for that matter), but I wonder if chronic early waking insomnia in people that are stressed with important things to worry about might be caused by an increased pre-waking rise in cortisol during the night. And maybe the difficulty or inability to fall back asleep after waking too early is exacerbated by a stronger cortisol awakening response (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22652338).

pic 1 (http://oi50.tinypic.com/2w7r13q.jpg)

pic 2 (http://oi48.tinypic.com/30bdwl3.jpg)

So if a person's early waking and inability to fall back asleep is caused by excess cortisol, then maybe trying to dampen the rise might help. I've tried taking a half gram time released Vitamin C (http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200304/vitamin-c-stress-buster) pill (with an 8 hour release claim) at bedtime a few times in the past, hoping it might stop my waking too early, but it didn't, although that may just be because no more (or a negligible and ineffective amount of) Vitamin C was still being absorbed.

One thing I haven't tried though is taking Vitamin C as soon as I wake in the morning. Maybe taking a half gram time released Vitamin C pill and an instant release Vitamin C pill (possibly chewed, or two instant release pills with one chewed and one not chewed, in addition to the time released pill) (or some other cortisol lowering supplement) immediately upon waking might help with falling back to sleep.

Or maybe it won't help, even if perhaps elevated cortisol is the cause of both the person's waking too early and the inability to fall back asleep, but those are my thoughts though.

Stims and benzos may cause sleep to not be deep enough , Stims for obvious reasons and benzos for acting in the same receptors of alcohol (If you ever had an hangover you know how sleeping can be not deep enough).

Cortisol (which gets really high if you are stressed) cuts the efficiency of many of body functions including sleep , since it exists to make you ready for fight or flight , if you have high levels of cortisol you only will sleep when totally tired and will awake as soon as possible.

Try taking some omega-3 , you should feel calmer during the day and should help to reduce cortisol levels, you can also try meditating before sleep.

For me the best way to relax is a cigar , a glass of bourbon and watching the sky trying to not think in anything... although nicotine and alcohol are bad for resting sleep , it's the best way to me in order to feel relaxed and if I don't smoke too much and don't drink too much (usually I drink really little like 25ml), I get really relaxed.

Find your own way of relaxing , don't try anything too exciting or interacting like videogames , you can try watching a movie , reading a book , listen to a soft song with the lights out , you should be able to feel easy going after the "relaxing session".

Vitamin C is over-rated IMHO , if you're not eating well enough just take a multivitamin pill, it'll be way better.

You can also try valerian root but for me it don't work well (gives me strong vivid nightmares).

avjgirsijdhtjhs
11-27-12, 08:00 PM
Well I guess that first off, I'll start off with a disclaimer, with it being: I'm VERY new to this, so I might be wrong on some of this stuff.

Pulse Oximeters (a little device that clips on the tip of your finger) with recording ability can be helpful in figuring out whether you've got apnea or not. They can pretty much rule in apnea, but supposedly, they can't rule it out, since it's possible to have cessations in breathing without having much of a drop in O2 saturation percent (see next paragraph).

I ordered the cheapest recording pulse oximeter that I could find (the Contec CMS50D+ (<------ note the plus symbol) for $44.29 shipped) about a week and a half ago and got it yesterday. In the afternoon and early evening, both yesterday and today, and having not eaten any food so far that day on each day, my O2 saturation percent number while sitting at the computer was always either 98 or 99 during the few couple minutes or so long periods of time I used it, and even during several 45 second breath holds, my O2 saturation percent number never went below 98, and sometimes stayed at 99 before, during, and in the few seconds following the breath hold. Also, later last evening during the few couple minutes or so long periods of time I used it, and after having eaten at least one meal so far that day, my O2 saturation percent numbers were a little lower - more like 95 and 96, and maybe as low as 94, and as high as either 97 or 98, and when I did a few 45 second breath holds, my O2 saturation percent numbers still wouldn't drop by more than one.

I should also note that:

1 - purposely wiggling my finger in the oximeter does NOT make the O2 saturation number suddenly go up or down (not even a change of as little as one percent O2 saturation), or cause anomalies in the heart rate monitor function (although my heart rate is always slightly varying).

2 - Removing my finger from the light beam IMMEDIATELY causes the screen with my O2 saturation and pulse rate to disappear, and a "finger out" error on the screen.

From what I recorded last night, as displayed on the included software (http://oi50.tinypic.com/avmsex.jpg), it looks like apnea might be my problem, although I'm not 100% sure.

Joker_Girl
11-28-12, 09:29 PM
i have so much trouble getting to sleep and staying asleep. it is really getting depressing.

Last night i was tired by 11 and tried to go to bed, but i tossed and turned til 2:30, and then was up til like 4:30. I didnt want to drag myself out of bed at 8.

My medicine doesnt work right when i am not rested.

Almost every night it happens. I have been taking Unisom, or Benedryl, whatever i have around....but it doesnt work very well, a lot of times i still cant sleep, or i will wake up at like 3 am. I will always feel very hung over the next day if i take Benedryl.

My husband takes Ambien. Every night. He sleeps like a baby. Within a half hour of lying down. I am always jealous. Sometimes, when i am desperate to sleep, i will beg him for one. It works almost immediately. A few times, i have just snitched one.

I will be very tired in the day, and if we come home for lunch i will fall asleep in the chair rather than eating.

No matter how tired i am, i still struggle almost every night.

I dont want to tell the Dr. They have given me Vicodin, for my knee, that i am having surgery on in three weeks. They give me Celexa for depression. They gave me Xanax for a week or so after my dad died, but i never requested or needed any more of those. I dont care for those. They make me so loopy and tired. I take Ritalin for ADHD.

The therapist has suggested i ask about getting something for sleep, but i just cannot ask. I am on an antidepressant, a schedule III med (Vicodin), and a schedule II med (Ritalin). I am not abusing these, and the Dr is not particularly concerned as far as i know. I take the Ritalin exactly as prescribed or even less. I take the Vicodin only when the pain is bad, and only a small amount. I will stop it when it is fixed.

So what i am saying is i am already on two meds that are watched, i cannot ask for another.

Is there any over the counter sleep aid i might try? I try Unisom, Benadryl. Ive tried Melatonin and Valerian Root, and some other herbal remedies. Ive got Chamomille tea i try some nights. Are there any others?

Are there any completely non addictive sleep meds?

Trust me, i have no desire to get baked on them or feel effects the next day. I would just like to get at least 6 hours sleep most nights, and to not have it take hours of tossing and turning.

scrambled86
11-28-12, 10:11 PM
Joker Girl - I can totally relate (3am here now!)

I don't know what over the counter medications you have available over there but I've tried various things with little success.

Hope someone has some good advice that can help you or you can decide within yourself if seeing your doctor is a good idea for you.

avjgirsijdhtjhs
03-02-13, 02:46 PM
Having to pee at night as an indicator of sleep disordered breathing (http://oi47.tinypic.com/2zp4105.jpg) (apnea, hypopneas, upper airway resistance syndrome).
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What sleep apnea looks like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1QyJu9Zt4s
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Neurologist Stasha Gominak on sleep and Vitamin D - part 1 of 5:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7cbBB1c0IM
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an oral dose of melatonin actually reduces the amount of stages three and four sleep by around 40 percent (http://www.quantadynamics.com/research/sleepmelatonin.htm)
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he research team discovered that two principal melatonin receptors, known as MT<sub>1</sub> and MT<sub>2, </sub>played opposite roles in sleep regulation. "We discovered that MT<sub>1</sub> receptors act on rapid eye movement (REM) sleep and block non-REM sleep, while MT<sub>2</sub> receptors favour non-REM sleep, also known as deep sleep," explains Dr. Gobbi, who is also an associate professor of psychiatry in the Faculty of Medicine at McGill. "Specifying the role of MT<sub>2</sub> receptors in melatonin represent a major scientific breakthrough that may designate them as a promising novel target for future treatments of insomnia. This discovery also explains the modest hypnotic effect of the over-the-counter melatonin pills, which act on both conflicting receptors." (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/12/111213190019.htm)Using the drug called UCM765, developed in collaboration with a group of chemists, under the leadership of Professor Tarzia in Urbino and Professor Mor in Parma, Italy which selectively binds to the MT2 receptor, the researchers observed an increase in the phases of deep sleep in rats and mice. Most importantly, UCM765 acts in a brain area called the reticular thalamus, which is the main driver of deep sleep. "This new molecule, contrary to traditional treatments for insomnia, increases deep sleep without destroying the "architecture" of sleep. In other words, it increases the duration of deep sleep while keeping the REM sleep episodes the same," says Dr. Gobbi. (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/12/111213190019.htm)
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Check out your sleep architecture\stages with a Zeo Sleep Manager (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140100).
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UARS RERA snore snoring snores peeing urine urinate **** leak bladder wake waking insomnia disorder disorders