Hi all, and a hello to the mediator, havent talked to you in a bit.

But I would like to share a story which can go both ways. A friend of mine, who i met about 1 year ago, was a drug abuser, and could not stop using dope and oxys. But i was not really informed of his cocaine use.

Well, after a few months on suboxone and Adderall, I mentioned to him that, these two drugs especially adderall had dramatically helped me and I basically have no intentions of using, my life has improved, self esteem, social ability to a point, and i havent drank in a year and or have done oxys in about 6 months. Now, He found a doctor, basically he got perscribed adderall because he was buying them from some guy and gotten to like them. So now, he is clean, doesnt use drugs like cocaine or heroin, and i know for a fact, BUT on the other side hes abusing Adderall.

I tell him over and over, and i sorta feel bad, yet good in a way , that i helped him or advised him about this drug and he doesn use dope and has no cravings and all that. But I cant say hes a full bloan adderall addict, but hell snort em from time to time, take 2 and take more than he is suppose to. Lately because he knows I get 90 mg a day and he is starting on only 20mg a day, he basically wont leave me alone for them. He gets in a panic when he runs out. or when he knows hes gonna run out. I did "help" him out once or twice because due to the fact now he is persribed adderall and he really really was like almost going to use, so i gave him a few to hold him over till his appointment, which was wrong but if he didnt have a script or perscribed them, i would have not ever done so. But hes abusing them. THats allhe cares about because he claims it helps him so much, his life is great, motivated and happy, and does well in school and has money now. So in a way its a good think but a bad thing.

He takes, about on average 40-60mg a day, but his doc only started him at 20mg. 2x daily, but his first day of his script he did take about 7 of them, but claims he didnt do that since. but little things you can tell . I mean, 2 times he lyed to me or was trying to just get adderall, and when his phone number comes up on my phone, its never talk , its maybe 5 minutes of talk then , oh please can you geive me 1or 2. I tell him no, he emails me, ****ed off , a few times threatened me, not in an assautive way, but he said if ever ever ran out, and needed 2 he would not help me, or he would actually say this or that to come to my house. Well anyone one from hine site could say, well lock your doors, dont call em, and this and that, but i want to help him. I even told him id hold his meds, and he agreed. Well, he lied, he said his mother had them, but he did.

Now im sure this kind of thing happens alot, esp with drugs like cocaine oxys esp, heroin but adderall even though is a drug and abusive, he did turn his life around. But if he runs out before his appointment, he said basically hell end up using or just go do cocaine. He knows ABout Ritalin and cocaine are similar and his othe rbuddy is giving him a script of ritalin. Now i know he snorts about 5 or 6 30mgs a day because of the cocaine like effect. But even adderall is similar in a way i fyou think about it. So woud a friend rather see another just go use , or if needed a few extra adderall, would cause him not to, and stay on track.

Then i think of myself. Being i never did cocaine, but mainly opiates which are different than cocaine, and amphetamnes, has really helped me to a point where the problems i do have are minor like staying up sometimes all night, but i never take a double dose. I may have taken 45mg but 30 is the limit. Now he wants me to research because he knows im inot all the brain stuff, and try to come up with something to boost adderall back up so he can baasically get that feelling back. I went through it, actually asking people on here and other boards but since about 3 months ago, im doing well , not worried about Feeling effects, but my add is null and bascially subsided. But i know, 8hrs after taking my dose, i feel it come back, I get slightly depressed, antisocial, and just either take another one or go to sleep. So there are some issued but i feel the good outweight the bad. I myself never snorted adderal, nor took double the dose, Im perscirbed 90mg 30mg 3x daily, and i have taken an extra dose say on a saturday night to stay up later.. But i didnt party , just went out and had a good time, and was in a good awake mood. I dont think thats abuse. BUt he is, and im not sur e if he will just learn his lesson that if he keeps doing what hes doing, hes going to run out, and I promised not to ever give him anym re after finding out this.

He has a severe addiction. He has walked out of rehabs, hates meetings, and he still used while he had an opiate implant to block opiates, he did cocaine and drank. So, now hes alot better, but he must stop this abuse. ITs very hard, because i feel bad in a way, but i dont. Iv noticed, though when you have any abusive medication or drug, you seem to have alot more "aquantiences" But if you thnk about it, there mostly using you for drugs if you give them it. THen when i denied giving him any more, and i only have him like a few to help him for 3 days till his appoint, he thinks ill help him now and he can just do whatever but now, hes lying to me, emailing me acting ****ed and nasty because i refuse to help him , and i know he would not help me, because one time! i really just needed something a while back and he boned me, but he was using.

So no matter that drug, you never know who is trying to be your friend once they find out you have a nice medication regiment. And the worst thing is, if i were to say support him , for just an example, he got pullled over and he didnt have a persciiption per say, YOu know hes telling on you. Not that he ever did or threaten me but you help someone out and they turn on you once you ownt or cant help them out. Its sad, even my best friend, had done so , never called me for 2 months, then found out i had something he wanted and boy he calledme and called me, and ended up coming here. Now i have went to his home a few times, not for narcotics but just to say hi and would not answer the dooor.

ONe thing that I feel now, mentally. Im alot stronger, and i really dont let things bother me , I care but I dont go to extremes. Yet 2 yrs ago, when i was using, I had a friend, who drank alot but stopped hanging with me because of my drug use. But he insisted alcohol was not bad, even though he got 2 duis and did a flip on me.

I just wanted to share this , i m not writing this to "talk about my personal problems" because its not a problem anymore, just would like to know if anyone has had similar expeiences esp with adderall or perscription drugs. I dont mean being a drug dealer, then doing that life, more like, good friends, helping them out, lending them some money if they needed it, and i made sure not for drugs,, but had good times hanging out, then behind your back the next day talking so much that the town i live in, word gets around. Next think you know , stories get messed up and your the bad guy.

But if you lock your doors and become a loner, well thats bad, if done it for 6 months and didnt work. Dont even ask about women! please. My luck is better when i was using! lol no all serious, just shows the more you try to help someone, they get worse.

I bet everybody has had or knows someone who's had some kind of experience where they want to help a friend, but don't want to be an enabler. I've seen it happen, and it sucks. It's a real catch-22.

What this guy needs to do is be straight with his doc. I'm sure the doc already knows he's an addict. If 60 or 90 mg a day is what it takes for him to stay off the harder and more dangerous drugs, then he might go along with it. Or, he might have a better idea. Who knows.

I'm guessing this story ends when you finally tell the guy "No more," and he never comes around again. At least, that's where I'd end it. Otherwise, you're right, it's a feedback cycle, try to help, he gets worse, comes back for more, etc. There's no winning.

He can't even be straight with himself much less his doctor.

First what needs to happen is all the people around him, well meaning as they may be, need to quit propping him up and let him fall to his death if necessary.

So many people are taken aback by that kind of statement but it's a fact. While someone remains in a position that they are unwilling to entertain ideas of action that lead to change all the advise in the world only prolongs the grief.

I'd have met my point of no return much sooner and probably more safely and with less damage had the people around me not been enabling my destruction.

All of us would love to save people from their own self destructive behaviour but the truth is that it has to come from within. We want to give advise maybe or are sought out for advise. Eventually we all have to choose life over death or put up with the consequences.

Our only chance to help is in the quality of our own salvation. By example we might lead the way to a more skilled self care.

Action is highly under utilised while learning more instead, is abused to the fullest.

It is a vicious circle that plays itself out in many other even less attractive arenas. We must take responsibility for ourselves to reap the rewards of showing someone the lightness that comes with conviction. Once again I'm reminded that nobody can peddle my bike but me.
Cheers! Ian

Ya your are correct . I dont think hes going to die, because hes not lilke popping 10 at a time, but moresoe, hes abusing them, and thinking wow these mad me so much better and i dont use dope. But I know he uses coke when he can and that i know one day he will do both and fiind out his heart explodes.

Plus hes too nice to me when he wants something, esp adderall,, like oh man, please your a good guy and this and that. Well when i say no, im a ***ing ******. THIS and that. Boy i want to smash him but violent wont do or solve anything.

Just the fact is mainly as i said, I told him he has the qualities or displays some ADD characteristics, and run it by the doctor. Well HIS DOCTOR DIDNT give him a test!!. NO add test. NOW im thinking ONE thing. If this is true, and i find out, well I may just fee like calling his mother to help him. He called me when he "suppposedly got the ADDERALL" Now I know he Had like 2 pills he showed me one time, but maybe he just bought them off the street, and told me this big bull crap line he got a script, SO i would give him like loads of mine. THats like big time DRUG Behvior. Well he claims he gets his refill today and Ill have really see buy some "unique questioning" Like asking him what do the pills look like again or show me a receipt so i know your have them legally from a doctor , if not i wont be seen near him if he illegally has them on him.

I just thought of this, because whywould his doctor not give him any test. He probably said no because he might have thought i would ask him about the test and he would be like oh no what is it?? BUt im not sure if doctors are required to give a ADD test. Or can they just assume by there statements that patients give them and say ok heres 10mg 2x daily of adderall. Maybe, but who knows.

Thanks for advise'
M.R

Mind, You really need to read Ian's post again...


[itschaotic]He can't even be straight with himself much less his doctor.

First what needs to happen is all the people around him, well meaning as they may be, need to quit propping him up and let him fall to his death if necessary.

So many people are taken aback by that kind of statement but it's a fact. While someone remains in a position that they are unwilling to entertain ideas of action that lead to change all the advise in the world only prolongs the grief.

I'd have met my point of no return much sooner and probably more safely and with less damage had the people around me not been enabling my destruction.

All of us would love to save people from their own self destructive behaviour but the truth is that it has to come from within. We want to give advise maybe or are sought out for advise. Eventually we all have to choose life over death or put up with the consequences.

Our only chance to help is in the quality of our own salvation. By example we might lead the way to a more skilled self care.

Action is highly under utilised while learning more instead, is abused to the fullest.

It is a vicious circle that plays itself out in many other even less attractive arenas. We must take responsibility for ourselves to reap the rewards of showing someone the lightness that comes with conviction. Once again I'm reminded that nobody can peddle my bike but me.
Cheers! Ian[/QUOTE]

and please don't hate me for my honest questions...or do I guess I can handle it

But what are YOU getting out of this relationship?

Do you feel superior to this 'friend' because he sounds like a whining, user waste-oid of a friend to me.
So I'm asking myself what would keep me in a relationship with someone 'like this'?

I'm lost dude-- I don't understand why you keep yourself open to someone who sounds like they use folks for their prescriptions.

At the very least, from a very coda-personality person to another YOU ARE NOT helping this friend by helping him.

Please accept this internal (probably mirrored) viewpoint from someone who is living the CODA enabling life-style but trying so very hard to change before I turn my daughter into a very hard-case using street person.

HI, carol, its complicated, i dont have too many friends, because since iv been sober, im not nearly a bar hound, i dont go out so i have like 2 or 3 friends. Two of them are addicts, like me, now both of them are getting or one of them has adderall, and my best friend is getting his next week. BUT they do have and display ADD characteristics, especially Drug use. I luckily was never into speed, but still it doesnt mean i cant become an amphetamine addict. But I would suspect someone like him would abuse amphetamines because of his cocaine use. I was more of a GHB, and OXYcontin, both have downer type feeling, but at first give you energy, but lilke a calm feeling. Mainly it has to do, with SOcial Phobia and Depression.

If i were to break it down, or pretend i was talking to this doctor who was some Psychoneuropsychiatrist, and I told him for 1 hr how and why I use. Well, I would tell this so called expert, THat the reason i use drugs is to become happy, get up and go out, socialize , like that alcohol buzz, but 10x the mood boost. Thats GHB. THe mental addictiveness it gave me, which not many people abuse it, but the ones who do, are so addicted the bottle never left my side for 3 yrs. After injesting it, in 20min, you feel this oncoming sence of peacefulness, and a teary eyed happyness. NOw if you ever felt that teary eyed happy feeling, like i get once in about 4 yrs LOL, thats like g. Thats why Dr Ward Dean, Wrote that book and had alot of people use it as a prozac and alcohol alernative. I didnt start by that book, but in 1999 i went to flordia, and orlando was infested with exacty and ghb. I mean, THese two drugs are MIND very strong mind and mood altering, unlike Dope cocaine, which are to a point will make you happy but not nearly like extacy and GHB. Then when you stop using it, you are so depressed, that you wanna just lay in bed and some people get suicidal, from the excess dopamine from ghb. Extacy is like 2 days later, scientists show a slide of the serotonin neurons, and while the person is using ex, it looks like a big ant hill army of seratonin flooding the synapse, and then 2 day later, you can could on your fingers the seratonin N>T> I mean this is not exact , but the point is, I believe these two drugs, def are potent dopamine and seratonin meds, but have no opiate properties, and dont release the Dopamine as much as amphetamines. ALthough they act throug other systems like releasing this much, then holding back that amount, so its really chemically confusing.

BUt back to addiction, and friends. Ya, Ijust got a bit curious yet its a very catch 22 situation. Personally. If i know 100 percent I would use if I had to stop adderall and Suboxone, by say next month, because i was abusing them, but not like Oxys or G, i rather would stay on the Adderall. Addiction also can be worse with certain drugs, like heroin and cocaine because you will do anything for that hit of the pipe and bag. So thats where robberys, burglarys and theft comes in.

THere is not to many problems with adderall, I know there has been, but not nearly like The H and Coke. But thats no way to judge it , i know. But so far, I personally am so much better, and dont worry about the next guy and what he saying about me, i feel better, and one great think , there is GREEN in my wallet! I remeber i couldnt even get apack of cigaretts for 3 days due to my habbit.

Now iv read staterra is causing liver or kindey problems in some. Boy whats next. But if you think about it, Staterra, And I believe the minor arthritis medication that has been in the news is like causing alot of health risks, but you dont see much of the shedule 2 drugs besides oxys which is usually involved in crime.

NOw they are banning Andro products. Im pretty up on them, and I still dont know all about every one these companies put out. BUt ill tell you guys a fact, that 2 of the Products were exactly the same potency and acted like steroids! BUt they got it by the FDA. Now ephedra, is banned, ProHormones are and will be banned, L-Tryptophan, and whats next. It seems that these drugs can cause problems, but you dont know how much business one like GNC or any health store looses by these bans. It just seems like when a drug or substance really works, they ban it and make it illegal so they could increase drug sales. JUSt for example, IM going to name like 5 substances and next to it the real drug and basically there similar or the same, now banned and there is a drug just like it.

L-Tryptophan -- Prozac 1989
GHB - 1999 ILLEGAL SCHEDULE I ( sold in GNC in 1997)
Ephedra ( banned last year ) Still have merida and all those wieght loss drugs that are basically in the amphetamine family like ephedrine.
PRoHormones LIke 1- AD, or 1-Testosterone Ether Very VEry close to pure Testosterone steroids Deca.

Well THere will always be a black market, because i can get any one of these meds , besides GHB, which is a bit hard, and im glad it is!! But there has been many many people who benifited from ephedra, Pro-Hormones , and L-Tryptophan, Now what do you think most of these people are gonna do? Ya go get PROZac, PHEN PHEN type drugs which are similar, and Use STEROIDS!

JUST MY THOUGHTS THANK YOU GUYS

charlie you seem to have come a long way in a short time. You must be pounding the books and or meetings. It's quite clear to me that you have a much more inspired relationship with this type of encounter than I do now. I am buoyed by that knowledge.


MindResearcher.
I sometimes hate myself for posting with this type of information. It's been on my mind since I posted my last entry in this thread. I failed to mention that one needn't disengage.

Detaching from the emotional expectations while remaining compasionate is what's required. Any advise you might offer the addict is just wasteful in many ways. At all times, ones own well being needs to be a priority. Addicts eat anyone that offers themselves up as fodder. People are generally good and well meaning. Addicts like myself (in remission) fed on that good will for years and it kept me doing the same thing. I'm a con and I'm good at it most addicts.

My actions not my words are the only thing of merit. I heard none of the words when I was using and when I did I was not open to the ideas. Often I became resentful.

The biggest mistake I see happening is advice giving. When others gave me advise I always had someone to blame when it didn't work out.

Practise talking to someone where you offer no opinion as to what the other should be doing. Couching it in terms like.. "If it were me... " is still part of the problem though. Responding with "what do you think is right?" or "I don't know, what do you think is best?" might make the relationship into something more honest.

charlie you inspire me. I know now that your daughter is being granted the keys to adulthood in a manner that may be violent and dangerous. Your efforts will be tested to degrees you never dreamt but your daughter will know honesty and love. Love like there is no tomorrow and you will at worst be left with an open mind and a full heart. Your daughter will know the way by the path you follow. I would will her the courage if I could. She is lucky but she might not know it now but she will know it even if you don't hear it from her. Courage.

There is so much we can do besides take a pill, it's just not as easy.
Cheers! Ian.