I would like to hear from others who have ADD and abuse their stimulant medications. I have ADD and was diagnosed at age 30 after I developed depression, anxiety and substance abuse. I have been on all the non-stim. treatments with poor results. I am on Adderall and it changed my life. It helps tremendously, but if I want to tweak out, I take a lot more then I should. I have two prescriptions for it as well. My daily as prescribed and my abused prescription. :confused:

You will find other discussions about this in this same forum. Of course the obvious solution is to get rid of one of your doctors
< grin >

Stimulants are really pretty bad to abuse, I'm sure you've heard the old addage "speed kills". Mostly I think that applies to shooting up or smoking meth or crack but still it is really hard on your body in excessive doses & you really want to be able to continue with the prescribed doses since it helps you so much so that's a great reason to get a handle on it now, it won't get any easier. I'm finally tackling my excessive drinking BTW.

AddieGirl2000,
I'm an addict (recovering) and I started taking Ritalin lately--the first abusable drug I've taken in over a decade. I have the urge to chase that pleasant coke-like buzz.

I've chased it once or twice and found myself sleepless, ragged and bad-tempered. So, I'm trying to keep a handle on it. The drug itself provides the feedback for me-- at least, up until now-- one never knows with the indelible dopefiend mind!

I have been physically addicted to opiates, barbituates and alcohol. Never into speed. However, I do see potential here with Ritalin.

I've had surgery two times in recovery and needed to take vicodan and other opiates for post-surgical pain. After two or three days on opiates, I go nuts without using more than prescribed! My wife sees an ugly personality change (she doesn't even realize its the narcotics), my friends ask me what's wrong with me ---notin' man. I obsess about the pills, as well. So, that's my limit, and a testy one at best. I've thrown them out at that point and put up with the lingering pain.

So, due to my former drug usage patterns and brain change, I can't use self-administered opiates theraputically, even if the doc says I can take them for a week.

Ritalin seems to help me greatly. I would hate to get into a new pattern of drug abuse, to find that I've destroyed my new found advantage.

I'm thinking of trying a time-released drug like Concerta, next. That would seem to have less abuse potential-- though I could always crush 'em up -- ha, ha --there goes the dopefiend within again!

BTW, double scripting is not a good idea, IMHO. For someone with a history of substance abuse, having one doctor control your meds is far safer than medicating yourself.

I feel for you.

Thanks for your input. Adderall truely works for me. SO, I gave it to my mother and she will dispense it to me for now. Infantile, but it is what I have to do to work on this issue. :o

SO, I gave it to my mother and she will dispense it to me for now. Infantile, but it is what I have to do to work on this issue


Good for you! Takes a lot of courage to give up control.

Very interesting Topic. Before i state some things, it seems that ADD sufferers have many topics and a vast array of topics that they suffer from, due to the fact that ADD is somewhat now more observed than years ago, STimulant drugs which are addictive and scheduled 2 are used for treatment, yet there are 6 types of ADD, and each type may have 10 different symptoms!.
THis is another reason why im very into ADD, medication, Natural remodies, Pharmacology, and the Physiology of the disease, and so on.

Addiction. THIs can be a catch 22 situation. Ill use my friend for example. He was a non stop heroin addict. Suffers from basically the same problems mentally I do, and I helped him out. NOW, here is where i want to clarify help him out. I Told him that a drug called suboxone has helped me kick my oxy habbit. Well after he tried numerious times to quit, he went to a special doctor about possibly trying the drug, and he was treated with it for opiate addiction.

Well, i should have known, but at the time, I really didnt know that suboxone could cause a "buzz" , and he started eating them , instead of 1 , more so 3-4 untill he just could not get a buzz any more. I dont mean to talk about this drug,but it leads up to adderall. So he asked me about adderall. I told him, well, suboxone helped the opiate detox, and some cravings, but adderall has helped me like unimaginable. I was not going to lie, and i told him that, being on both medications has eliminated my cravings or use of any opiates.
Well, he went to his doctor, and was diagnosed with ADD< which i know he has, on top of some serious depression. Well, In about 2 week, after being persribed 40mg of adderall, it was more like 100mg, then about 1 month, he was up to at least 3 20mg at a time 3 x daily. I tried to help him, even held his meds for him, because he did not want his mother to do so , well that turned into him flipping out because i was not home when he needed his meds, and this was like the next morning after i gave him what he demanded the night before, and i realized this is not a smart thing to do, but I did want to help him.

THe main topic he and I discuss is that yes, This adderall and suboxone has helped him stop using , for 8 months which he actually told me " i sorta helped him save his life", well i just said, take it for what its worth, now you have an adderall amphetamine addiction. HIs doctor had him on 80mg a day, and must have caught on after he was asking more benzos and more adderall, so he cut him to 60mg , which is the normal dose,but he wasnt too happy bugging me if he runs out. Well, i said, first you have to take your dose, normally, and If you abusine them, I will never give you any , in the first place, but thats basically drug seeking behavior.

Basically, from what I have read and such, 60mg of adderall, to maybe 90mg, which i take, but only 30mg every 6 hrs, never more at once, is high enought. Well your brain is not really prone to be receiving 120mg plus of adderall every day. Then the next day, you run out or what not, and your severely depressed. Or, the main thing is he or anyone else is chasing that high you get or buzz the first few days , and after you find out you cant get it, you lower your dose, and feel worse. Hes on a rollercoaster ride. BI polar is not the word.

My problem i ran into is staying up , like 30 hrs on some nights, which can screw your sleep pattern up , but sometimes, i can just go all night reading online, etc, and figure if i dont have to get up, and i dont drink or use, Oh well take another dose of adderall at mindnight or so, NOT doubled up, but instead of sleeping, take one to stay up. Then i find im a bit lethargic , depressed and sluggiish, even after taking adderall the next entire day when i wake up.

Well, My main point is , yes, everyones adderall , ritalin etc dose varies, from 10mg up to 120mg , but where the addiciton comes in is when you taking say 3 30mg tabs at once instead of every 6 hrs. Its a big difference, due to the fact, its basically wearing off by then. THen you start taking more , and you need xanax and Klonopin to calm down, then your opiate medication interacts with amphetamines ( in a good way), you get a sorta double wammy, from opiates and Dopamine reward pathway effect, so your brain is like ya, bring it on.

I have to say, Methamphetamine, and Oxycontin are probably a combonation which is so very addictive, because of the mass amount of VTA dopaminergic release, and MU opiate release . SO taking adderall and suboxone is in a way taking a small dose of each, but still does not mean its the same at all.


RBAC

I was an adderall abuser. I do in fact have ADHD and it was working great for about a year, then I had to bump my dose up b/c I wasn't getting the same effect. Then the higher dose (30mg) lasted about a year and then I asked to bump it up again. The doc wouldn't go higher so I just instead would take 2x30mg a day, run out in 15day, and just grit my teath and bear the next 15 days. Well, after two months of doing this I said enough is enough. I'm addicted and need to solve this problem. So I dumped 25 x 30mg pills down the drain and said I'm through with this crap. And that is honestly what it is. Adderall is an amphetamine which is a neurotoxin. Don't be fooled with how well it works. It's a substance that is addictive and will ruin your life. I used to work out for 9yrs straight 7days a week at least 1hr a day. The year I started adderall I no longer worked out every day. Why? I became lethargic after the drug wore off. I didn't yet realize this until recently though, so that's another reason I quit. Also, you know ectasy and speed? Well that's the same crap adderall is - i.e., a meth/amphetamine. Keep taking it for a few years and you'll actually be less intelligent than you were when you started. There's a lot of research on the negative PERM effects of meth/amphetamines but doctors keep perscribing them and people keep taking them and new people become addicted every day.

ozone990 (member.php?u=4259) would you post some links to information about the decreased intellegence while taking appropriate doses for ADHD please?
Cheers!

Ozone, everyone is entitled to their own opinions but at the same time everyone is different and are affected by drugs differently so don't discourage people that are looking for help and have found it with adderall. When you say you weren't getting the same effect what do you mean? That you weren't getting high as a mofo like you used too? If that is the case which, to some degree I am suspecting it is, then you weren't supposed to feel like that in the first place and maybe you weren't ADD. I have an extremely addictive personality and Adderall doesn't draw me in at all. I only take it to concentrate better, I have yet to have adderall make me feel speedy which is a good sign. Adderall takes care of my depression & anxiety and hopefully I will get to a dose that will help the ADD it self, I can already notice some subtle differences at the dose I am on and I am looking at my future in a new light.

Thanks for stating that so clearly bricktop.

I spent so much of my life struggling with addiction, but not now.

My experience has been that the stimulants have helped me take better care of myself than ever before in my 46 years.

Self care means more to me now than just not abusing various substances. I'm quite familiar with what life is like, when anything that can be addictive seems to some my way. Taking dex has been the best thing I've ever done to address my shortcomings with substance abuse.

well in australia some support clinics will dispense meds. This option was looked at for me but my location meant it wasnt an appropriate solution. Also you should / could concider going into a support group or somthing, where you can voice your concerns and get some advice about copeing methods and such. Also, might want to hint to your doc you have an abbuse problem / history and burn your other script.

just thaughts.

yes i would look into the clinic that could dispose it,,, cuz i have ABSOLUTLY abused addreall, and everything i could,, and tried number of meds,, addreall works the best though but that feeling to take more, at least for me was cuz when u come down it sucks and taking more is inorder, resulting in needing to take more and more... luckily i hit my bottom, and just kicked the addreall and tried all the other meds,, nothings worked,, so i went to a new doc ... told her everything,,, addreall worked best for me ... but the end of the med makes me crazy,, so to fix that ive taking a huge risk and allowed her to give to addreall again ... 30mgs in the morn ... 20mgs of ritalin around 4 or so ... seems to be woorking well ... i cant tell any of my friends im on it again,... that will lead to everrryone trying to buy em and me misusing,,, its working well i havent sliped yet amazingly and i think i wont,,, think about 2mesd

yeah, getting meds dispensed is a good idea. The benafit of having it done officialy is that firslt, its recorded, and secondly, there is no way in hell you can find them if you get desperat (like how you proly could withy your mom hiding them and doiing it). That is unless you want to tool up and burg a pharmacy or something. You might find you have to admit to your doc you have / had problems before this course of action will be taken, then again thats likely the best thing to do anyway.

Ozone, everyone is entitled to their own opinions but at the same time everyone is different and are affected by drugs differently so don't discourage people that are looking for help and have found it with adderall. When you say you weren't getting the same effect what do you mean? That you weren't getting high as a mofo like you used too? If that is the case which, to some degree I am suspecting it is, then you weren't supposed to feel like that in the first place and maybe you weren't ADD. I have an extremely addictive personality and Adderall doesn't draw me in at all. I only take it to concentrate better, I have yet to have adderall make me feel speedy which is a good sign. Adderall takes care of my depression & anxiety and hopefully I will get to a dose that will help the ADD it self, I can already notice some subtle differences at the dose I am on and I am looking at my future in a new light.I also agree that everyone is entitled to their opinions. I'll try to elaborate a bit on mine. When I said I was no longer getting the same effect from it, I simply meant that it was no longer working as well as it had before. I need to explain a little about myself first so that you can get an indication on what I mean by that statement. I decided to major in engineering because I was never really good at reading. I could never sit still for over 10 minutes, and when I tried I would fall asleep. This also goes for driving; when I drive for more than 30min I start to yawn. But even in engineering, reading the material would be troublesome because I would fall asleep. Though, I did manage to graduage with good grades. I then decided to take the LSAT and enter lawschool. But the major problem with this decision was that I could not read anything in great length (except a good novel) without being put to sleep or feeling the need every 10 minutes to get up and do something else. After considering all this for a bit I decided to get tested for ADD. After a battery of tests, I was diagnosed with ADHD. Once I got into lawschool, I started taking 20mg of Adderall when I was about to sit down and read my daily cases and it worked wonders. I could actually sit down for at least 6hrs and just read. I had no inclination to get up and do something else. Well, after about a year at that dosage, the 6hr time period gradually reduced itself... soon it was 4hrs, then 2hrs. So I decided to talk to the doctor about this and she perscribed 30mg. This did the trick and I was back at being able to sit down for about 5hrs again. Well, about a year has gone by and the time has dwindled down again to 2hrs.

This simply evidenced that I had a tolerance to at that dosage. So, I decided to try two 30mg tabs; one in the morning then another about 4-6hrs later. And wow, it worked again. I could again study for the majority of the day and actually get work done. Well, now we get into the side-effects. Granted, these exact side effects existed before when I was only at 20mg/day, but I just didn't notice them right away. It was only when I hit 60mg/day that they became amplified and I could say "Oh, that side-effect is caused by Adderall."

The first side-effect was lethargy. Like I stated in my original post; I used to work out 7day/week for 9yrs. But... once I started Adderall I gradually lost the "drive" to workout. Drive in this sense was not motivation, but rather the energy I used to have that would get me into the gym. Once I hit about 30mg/day, during the afternoon (which was 9hrs after taking Adderall) I was mentally drained. I was forced to take a nap a few times during the week just to regain my energy. Then once I hit 60mg/day I would sleep for incredible durations after the Adderall wore off.

The second side-effect is more long term which isn't noticable until you've been on Adderall for quite awhile; and that is neurotoxicity. As we all know, our brains have neurons in them. These neurons communicate with each-other through electrical impulses. When the electrical impulse occurs, a vesicle opens and releases a neurotransmitter. After the release, the neurotransmitter is broken down at the synaptic cleft into enzymes. Okay, now here is where the neurotoxicity occurs. This stimluation and release of the nerutransmitter followed by breakdown uses a lot of energy. And because of this, the neuron is vulnerable to oxidative stress. In order to produce energy, nerve cells have a large number of mitochondria. Energy production produces free radicals, which can damage the DNA within cells. Adderall is an amphetamine and amphetamines release Norephinephrine which is a neurotransmitter. So by increasing the neurotransmitter quantity in our brain we also increase the resulting oxidative stress upon our neurons. This is why many Ectasy and Cocaine users eventually get "dumb" (every time they use the drug they are inflicting massive amounts of oxidative stress on their neurons).

The third side effect is addiction. When a substance rewards you, but results in a tolerance buildup, the chance for addiction is severely high. For the first two years of taking it I wasn't "drawn" to take any more than my normal dose. I would take it in the morning, and my hyperactivity would vanish, and I would get my work done. But once the duration decreased, I decided to take more. Then this notion of taking "more" became a habit and I thus became addicted. I was lucky to realize this in merely two months after the onset of the addiction.

There are many more side effects from taking Adderall (i.e., amphetamines). Just goto pubmed.com and do a search. And metham's (Ritalin) aren't much better. So anyway, I don't want to undercut the benefit of these drugs, but I also don't want to overstate their value.

P.S.: My post would have no value if it didn't provide an alternative solution. Well, I am now on a non-toxic nootropic regimine when is working wonders for my concentration, but it still has not filled the "stay put" gap that Adderall had. I am looking into Strattera now though because that is a non-stimulant which is thus not habit forming. The effect should not be as noticable as Adderall, but it should still work. Also, a diet change and exercise and can do wonders. Send a reply if you'd like more information.

Just to clarify, Ritalin is not methamphetamine, it's methylphenidate. Ecstacy, AKA 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine is technically an amphetamine, but is *not* prescribed for ADD (or anything else) in the United States. It may be legal by prescription in other countries (Europe?), I don't know.

Ozone, I would like to compliment you on this last post, it was much more constructive while at the same time you voiced your concerns about Adderall. I would also like to apologize for being rude, I fully did not understand your whole situation until now. At the same time I had just started adderall the day before you posted and it left me somewhat discouraged and wondering if you were using it incorrectly. From all the information that I have collected from peoples' experiences on these boards to my doctors opinions and from medical web sites, I have not seen any evidence that adderall will nessicaraly have the same effects on others as it had on you. You seemed to build up a tolerance to it very quickly but on the other hand, a good friend of mine has been on adderall for 7 years now and with only one 6 month break during his senior year (to check in see if he could preform well with out it, he dropped from his 3.5 to below a 2.0) he has been at the same 60 mg/day since almost the beginning and because of adderall AND determination he made it into a great college. I am going to try and stay positive about the adderall that I have just started, today was great ADD wise and I can actually tell that the medicine is working because I read the book I just bought on TCP/IP protocol and understood EVERYTHING that I read with out reading it a normal 8 times.

P.S. Now let me get this strait, you said "Adderall is an amphetamine and amphetamines release Norephinephrine which is a neurotransmitter". Ok that makes sense I think ... so your saying the reason someone has ADD is because their neurotransmitter quantity is low/disfunctional any ways? If this is true then someone with ADD has had less "release of nerutransmitters followed by breakdown" which in turn would use less energy which in turn would release less free radicals in someone's non-medicated ADD brain compaired to a normal brains' free radical level. Would it not make sense then to say that when a moderate level of a stimulant is given to a person with ADD, making their brain behave more like a "normal" brain, a more than a normal level of free radicals is not produced because of an ADD persons' brain not doing the process of breaking down and sending neurotransmitters as much as it should in the first place? What am I not understanding?

This style of dialogue is inspiring to me. I can learn from it with ease. Thanks for contributing.
Cheers!

@bricktop

Hey again. Your deductions appear on the right track. I am not a doctor so I only know what I've read. But let's look at our evidence and ask some questions. ADD and ADHD are two different conditions. ADD deals with concentration; while ADHD deals with being able to "stay put". Dopamine is also a neurotransmitter and affects our ability to concentrate along with the reward system in our bodies. And just to clarify regarding the reward system; it's the system that makes us feel good when we do certain things. When you are about to eat a piece of cake, your brain releases dopamine and you feel pleasure, even before you take that first bite. So, it's logical to think that people with both ADD and ADHD have lower "release" of dopamine in their brains. And while I speak of dopamine, it's simply a precurser to norepinephrine which is the real cuplrit behind ADD/ADHD (I think).

Here is where I reach the limit of my knowledge. I plan to reasearch more, but only after my exams are over with. Remember how I said that during stimulation the vesicle opens and the neruotransmitter is released into the synaptic cleft? Well that's not the entire story because there is yet more that happens. When the neurotransmitter is released, two things are possible: (1) it is broken down into enzymes w/in the synaptic cleft; or (2) it is taken back - often called reuptake - into the neuron and no breakdown occurs. If reuptake occurs, then we do not feel the effects of the neurotransmitter because it was never broken down. I have no clue why reuptake would happen though in the first place; it seems silly to go through all the effort of stimulation + opening the vesicle + having the neurotransmitter travel up the neuron, only to be denied release like a cheap date (I'm sorry but that's pretty funny :p ).

My point in explaining all this is "I" am not sure what the problem with ADD/ADHD is... but I believe it could be one of two things: (1) people with the condition do not have enough norepinephrine in their brain to begin with; or (2) people with the condition have too much reuptake of norepinephrine and thus not enough is broken down. So, here is my gripe with Adderall and any other stimulant. It is correct to say that if people with ADD/ADHD released the normal amount of norepinephrine then there would be no excess oxidative stress placed on the brain; however, no one really knows what dosage of Amphetamines will produce that normal amount. I don't think it's possible to measure the level of one's norepinephrine output; though I do believe something similar is possible. Here is where my knowledge really gets hazy. When you are relaxed (another function of norepinephrine) your brain produces a higher content of alpha waves. So when you read or study it would be very beneficial to have a high amount of them. Well these types of electromagnetic (?) waves are measurable. So you could go to a neurologist and have your alpha wave output measured at various dosages of amphetamines and compared to a non-ADD/ADHD brain's alpha waves. But, that would probably cost a lot of money, and plus because we build a tolerance to this drug, it would be my guess that you would need to go for regular checkups to make sure that you maintain the proper dosage.

I have read though about a device which plays specific tones through earphones and makes your brain produce more alpha waves while you listen to it. Several people with ADD/ADHD have used it and said it works wonders. I was looking into it too. It's $350 and you'd need to pay some more money because you need to goto a neurologist so they can calibrate it for you. But if indeed it works, then it's a non-drug solution to our condition.

Before I give that a whirl, I'm going to try out straterra. Let me talk a little bit about that for a moment. Straterra is a NRI, which stands for "Norepinephrine Reuptake Inhibiter." Remember I mentioned the two possibilities after the release of a neurotransmitter? Either breakdown into enzymes so your body feels the effect of the neurotransmitter, or reuptake back into neuron? Well what Straterra does is block reuptake. At first this would seem like a great idea. I mean, reuptake is blocked so it's going to be broken down right? Well I don't know. Even the experts don't exactly know (I think). Everything your body does happens for a reason. Why does your body reuptake neurotransmitters? Is it simply because enough were released already? Meaning, let's say you go buy a car. If you're a person of average income and the car is a Dodge Neon costing about $15,000 you might feel pretty good when you buy it because everyone loves getting a new car. So here, your body will release norepinephrine giving you a pleasure sensation. Now, same scenario but instead of a Dodge Neon, the salesman really likes you and decides to sell you a Dodge Viper 2005 brand new for $15,000. Not only is that a really hot car, but it's an unheard of price! Wow, the norepinephrine should really be flowing through your brain. In this realm of unscientific conjecture, maybe some of the norepinephrine was reuptake'd back into the neuron, where in the viper scenario it was all released. Well, if that's simply why reuptake occurs (because the event isn't "that" pleasureable) then fine, Straterra should work perfect.

But... what if reuptake occurs for another reason. Let's say it occurs because for that portion of the brain, the maximum amount of norepinephrine has been broken down and no more is possible. Well if that's the case, then blocking reuptake will simply waste norepinephrine because it won't be broken down, and since it can't be reuptaken, future reserves of it will be lost.

So more info regarding this would be handy, but anyway... in my eyes (though it could be incorrect for my limited knowledge) Straterra appears worth a shot. By taking Adderall you never quite know what's the "perfect" level giving you a normal norepinephrine output. But Straterra should be safer because instead of simply pumping your brain full of norepinephrine, it's simply blocking reuptake of your current supply of norepinephrine. Oh, and this is all based on the assumption that people with ADD/ADHD have the same amount of norepinephrine in their brains, but not as much is released. So, I need to research a bit more and give it a shot and report some results.

P.S. This will probably be my last post or so for a week b/c I need to study for exams. But here is a nifty page to read. I haven't read it myself b/c I just found it. But it looks to have some great info on it.
http://web.indstate.edu/thcme/mwking/nerves.html

to my knoledge X isnt scripted legit in any country on the planet. According to a big book of drugs i once skimmed through anyway.