I've been to counsiling for a long time and all my counsilors tell me that romantic love is real but not an indicator that a love will be long lasting nor
that they would be a good mate at all.

I don't believe in romatic love anymore. My heart doesn't do flip flops or make me giddy. Yes I went through so much but I look at relationships very pratically, if you know what I mean. I feel broken. My ex husband wants to get back together with me. I feel comfortable with him and don't mind kissing but when I think about moving back together I feel my joy of life being sucked out. Have I gotten a cold heart?

Have you ever heard this one:

Whatever you believe, you are right.
This means that if you believe romantic love doesn't exist then you are right, it doesn't, in your life. Does this make you wrong? No! You are welcome to believe and feel whatever you wish.

The real trick is to decide what you want to believe and feel that would make your life work the best for you....then consistently practice this belief.
What you now believe obviously ins't working for you. Perhaps it's time to wish for something new and wonderful and believe this will work for you.

It starts by being silent and bringing yourself to a place where there are no thoughts, feelings, sights, sounds, just silence and almost "invisibility". Once there ask out loud for what you really want and see it as though it is happening now. Believe this will happen with your whole being and do this daily. It will happen.

P.S. You get what you focus on: Make sure you ask specifically for what you want. Asking for what you DON'T want will get that instead. A SIMPLE example, saying "I don't want it to rain today" will get you a rainy day. Instead say, I want a sunny dry day.

Have I gotten a cold heart?
Cold and broken or worn out are not the same thing. Love ends.

That's the bitter truth most people don't want to tell you. This doesn't mean it cannot be renewed again later on when you feel more complete in yourself. Recently an important scientist wrote this in answer to the question about what scientists believe in that cannot be proved. I think it is pretty eloquent:

"True love.

I've spent two decades of my life studying human mating. In that time, I've documented phenomena ranging from what men and women desire in a mate to the most diabolical forms of sexual treachery. I've discovered the astonishingly creative ways in which men and women deceive and manipulate each other. I've studied mate poachers, obsessed stalkers, sexual predators and spouse murderers. But throughout this exploration of the dark dimensions of human mating, I've remained unwavering in my belief in true love.

While love is common, true love is rare, and I believe that few people are fortunate enough to experience it. The roads of regular love are well traveled and their markers are well understood by many -- the mezmerizing attraction, the ideational obsession, the sexual afterglow, profound self-sacrifice and the desire to combine DNA. But true love takes its own course through uncharted territory. It knows no fences, has no barriers or boundaries. It's difficult to define, eludes modern measurement and seems scientifically woolly. But I know true love exists. I just can't prove it."

Those are the words of David Buss, author of a book called The Evolution of Desire.

Heres my 2 cents. Romantic love gets 2 people together, but comes and goes according to life and health. True love is an act of will. You will not always FEEL "in love" but if you ACT in love, the feelings will return. We put waaaaaaay to much merit in "movie love" Do I sound boring? Im not, Im happily married for 20 years, and still in romantic love. (depending on the time of day :D)

I think you are right moonlily. I've known only two couples who I felt had achieved true love and I would say that what set them apart was an ongoing decision not just of committment but devotion. Devotion is sort of an old-fashioned word. It is indeed a decision. I don't think is can ever happen by accident.

Of course it goes without saying that each of the people of those two couples were people worth being devoted to. No point in casting one's pearls before swine.

I've been to counsiling for a long time and all my counsilors tell me that romantic love is real but not an indicator that a love will be long lasting nor
that they would be a good mate at all.

I don't believe in romatic love anymore. My heart doesn't do flip flops or make me giddy. Yes I went through so much but I look at relationships very pratically, if you know what I mean. I feel broken. My ex husband wants to get back together with me. I feel comfortable with him and don't mind kissing but when I think about moving back together I feel my joy of life being sucked out. Have I gotten a cold heart?
No. You don't have a cold heart.
My opinion, from what you have said, is that this is not what you want/need right now. It may be just that you are not ready; that the timing is not yet right. But that sinking feeling is telling you to give this more time before you go there. Maybe you need to reestablish your "self" and recreate your own space...
Just my opinion.
Hugs and best wishes.

I don't believe in true love, or soulmates, or pre-destined relationships but I am a hopeless romantic. Go figure!

Yes, I'm jaded, yes, I'm bitter, and hell yes I still love. (or at least I think I do)

Is it real? I dont know. I dont even care anymore all I know is that it hurts like hell and I don't want it in my life anymore. Unless of course it's directed at an inanimate object.

"Romance is mush stifling those who strive." Lush life is a classic tune and speaks some wisdom for me.

I have never been much on romance except in the classic use of the term. But love/romance is not me. I'm a big believer in love though but I believe it to be a verb not a noun.

It's an action and something to be given away. I've been fortunate enough to have found a partner that participates in that dialogue. We've been married 19 years.

I'm not one for hanging on either. When we were married we took on another last name that means "Thou mayest" giving each other permission to be gone if it's not working. Talk about romantic! ehhe An idealist? Oh... maybe!

My gut almost never lies to me in matters of the heart. If it isn't feeling right then I would not run with it. Life is too short and the pain of separation too strong to waste a minute there.

With guys I call romantic love "thinking with the little head". We all know that's not where men shine particularly brightly.

Keppig you don't have a cold heart. You have a heart that has learnt to protect itself. Time is the only healer for me on that one. Some day I hope you are able to risk the pain again. When it works, there is nothing quite like it but it must be the toughest thing to practise once into a loving relationship. It's always an evolution if it's still a living thing.
Hugs. Ian

Choral Rhedd,

thanks for sharing such thought and emotion provoking words. i am going to read that book.

i believe in true love and soulmates, i just agree that it takes an act of constant will, and a great deal of determination to ensure that the world doesn't snatch it away from you.

Ah, true love -- soulmate -- the idea is "romantic". The notion uplifting -- if this one doesn't work, it just isn't the "one" waiting for me out there, somewhere. . .

The ex removed. . . I am familiar with that one. Also removed is the constant day to day dealing with the reasons the ex is ex. In the long run, and hopefully we are all in this for the long run, happiness is the important thing. Rich, poor, alone, together, sick (well, you get the idea -- the general unending list of possible life-states). . . what we are or what we are doing doesn't matter unless we are happy. Thinking about or worrying about "will we be happy?" in the future without this or that socially normal or accepted thing -- a wife/husband, child, our own home, etc... -- doesn't count as not being happy NOW. I have trouble doing this myself, so I know it isn't easy, but the socially rewarding technique for us is to indulge procrastination where relationships are concerned. If I hadn't gotten married because it seemed time to, I wouldn't be divorced (I also wouldn't have a wonderful 9 year old boy I have to remind myself) -- my current girlfriend has been hanging on for over a year. She is pretty, affectionate, young (I am still amazed she wasn't even BORN when startrek (original) was on TV), but I don't know if she is happiness. There are problems, and I am trying to be content with a wait and see how things go attitude. She isn't content with that, and if it weren't for her knowledge that pressing me into a further commitment would probably mean losing me, she would be going medevil on my butt with full force coercion. The problem with waiting is worrying -- if she gives up, or gets fed up, am I losing my last shot at happiness? Will there ever be anyone else able to tolerate my dirty sparkplug personality? Well, I have to honestly answer these worries -- I am happy now. I will hold my wanderings to the paths that show the glow of satisfaction and comfort. There is too much strife and worry in this life to add to it haphazardly. Sadness and challenge will always come -- that's life, but the road I will always travel will be the one I know. Everyone knows how comforting it is to have a familiar place -- the area where you grew up, your family's home -- a clearing in the woods, camped at as a youth -- a familiar street leading somewhere pleasant. . . and how subtlety disturbing it is when that place vanishes. Let the direction of your life be your familiar place, and try not to veer from it's arms. If you meet someone while traveling who seems to like hanging out with you as you go down your chosen path, then perhaps soulmates are possible.

"The ex that wants to get back together but you don't really give a flip only you don't want to be alone the rest of your life" doesn't sound to me like a companion in happiness. That ex would probably wind up an exexex eventually, and you'd have a lot of calendars with the days colored black in your past.

Or not...

I agree with the notion that love is decision...lust is an emotion. Love is a decision that gets us through the emotions. Romatic love in MY word is a flowery way of saying lust,,h0rney.... The fact you feel the joy of life being sucked from you when you think about living with ex?? Well he is an ex for a reason!!!! Remeber the reason before you move in as going back will probaby be a harsher reminder!!!!

I agree with the last reply. He is not an ex for nothing plus the fact that you feel like life is being suck out of you at the thought of going back..
I have been alone for 7 yrs , i started not dating because i am not really good at relationships and i am finding out right now that adhd may have something to do about it. And all these years i thought they were the jerks LOL..just joking.
I feel now ready to want to start to date again, hopefully i wont injure anyone LOL in the process.. 7 yrs is a longggggggg time to be alone if you know what i mean jelly bean. But i will behave i am sure ( Never). I love myself enough now to be able to really open up and be honest about who i am and more importantly who i want to be with. I am not this young woman who started dating a trillions years ago. I do not need a relationship and it makes all the difference to me. i want to experience the whole nine yard this time. and i will not accept any less. I want to be courted, taken out ect.. So my 2 cents, take time out alone learn to find where YOU feel good.

Digitl

Thanks you all! You all gave me things to think about. A worry that things won't work out is definitely on my mind. I do know who I am and love who I am. When we were married before he used to criticise my behaviors I felt I had to be someone else not me. I've been myself ever since he left and I like that. Maybe my intuition is telling me to not go there again with my ex. I wish I would stop questioning my own decisions!

Kassie, this is even more complicated than the variety of answers here makes it seem.

Much of the advice is well grounded, like the idea that you determine your own path, perhaps in ways that seem impossible and therefore mystical.

But we strongly disagree with Buss, on just about everything he writes. (We believe he's trying to stem the tide, define us the way he wishes we were. Tough luck, David.)


True love does exist.

It's not buried in chance, or in looking at how we can adjust to or overcome our primitive nature. It's not exactly new, but it certainly is recent, and we’re only now beginning to reach the point where we can understand it and stop messing it up.

It doesn't depend on others; it's inside you.

Many people experience it, which Buss misses because he doesn't know what he's looking for. (He set out to study mating, and he does a pretty bad job of that, too. He doesn't even come close to correctly understanding desire, and that's what the book's about. Geeze.)

But few of us that experience it can express very well what we do, or what we have with the ones we soar with. Some of us (like that knuckle head Ian)(grin) are isolated enough that they don't realize that they did it.

(The last time we read something Ian wrote, Kay laughed and said exactly that. "That knucklehead, he doesn't see how in love with her he is.")

The reason that it's difficult to speak about is that much of it is new, and lots of it can’t be described with the words we were given. Kay and I have spent years looking at exactly that, as an adjunct to our research into gender differences in human communications.

So we (as usual) have various scientific-type explanations for bits of it, which we talk about cautiously from time to time. The only place we have ever discussed it in depth is here, in the forums.

And even then, there is occasionally a kind of multi-level barrier to some bits, only because of the need for a common experience to validate the discussion. Kay and I can't just tell you what we did to jump over a particular problem of hers when we were teenagers, because there isn't any way to tell it that would make sense written out.

I can tell you this, though: whatever you thought I was referring to, it's certain that you're wrong.

Even if you had the same experience, it would be difficult to recognize that fact by what you write in a post. We can say that whatever it was, it was the biggest present we ever gave ourselves, as big a present as anyone has ever received, IMO.

It was significant and validating in ways that find a purchase in whatever we do; it is the cornerstone of the best parts of our research, the source of a kind of certainty that allowed us to dismiss other people's efforts to come between us, and so on.

And it certainly all came about as a result of true love. True love does exist, various bits of it can be defined scientifically (we've been discussing them in another thread recently), and yet it is still as purely mystical as it always has seemed.

The practical bits that Buss is missing are the same bits he misses consistently in his work. He is completely wrong about human mating strategies, how they are defined, how they work. It's not his fault, he's a normal, and he's a great champion for them, too.

It wouldn't hurt anything to read his book; ideas aren’t really dangerous. But when he says true love's rare, cover your ears and yell, "BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH I CAN"T HEAR YOU!" real loud.

Ian's closer to correct with his 'little head, big head' philosophy. But that's just one practical view, taken by a dad; as I said, he's got the rest of it right, too, from what we’ve read. (And think about the example that he's setting for his kids.)

And that's probably as good a way to think about it as any: you can't really mess it up, and although you might periodically be so focused on one point or another that you miss seeing it, it's still there to explore whenever you want.

You're not burned out, it's not over for you, there isn't anything permanently broken or bent. You might be tired, but your ability to experience true love is intact, we’re sure of it.

As long and intense and true as it's been for me and Kay, we nonetheless have had to walk through some places that nobody would ever want to go.

But we're still here, and sometimes it was actually easy. When we think rationally about it, we say it's mainly because we could reach back to the things we experienced together early in our relationship, and find the truth amid overwhelming confusion.

The real truth, the bigger truth is, it's just true love, and it isn't actually a part of the stuff that beats us down. We soar; how nasty and gritty things are on the ground can't really affect that.

John Lennon said, "Life is what happens while you're making other plans," and that goes double for true love, at least for the foreseeable future. True love is about soaring; the hurting is about some other thing we persist in working at despite ourselves.

You still have your piece in there, no matter what else is going on. How you use it is your choice, depending only on the path you happen to choose, and the people that choose a similar path.

Now, if you were going to set out to write a really serious book about it, you might get sidetracked pretty bad…

Wow!!!!!!!!!!!

Hi Stabile,

Haven't read Buss's book myself, although it sounds like it might be a good read based upon the sample of writing I quoted. He seems capable of writing a coherent sentence. He even seems capable of stating that he can't quite define true love and that it defies science's attempts to quantify it. Here is the only part of the quote that comes near to a definition:

". . . But true love takes its own course through uncharted territory. It knows no fences, has no barriers or boundaries. It's difficult to define, eludes modern measurement and seems scientifically woolly. But I know true love exists."

In your post you seem to object to how he defines true love. You must therefore have access to a text where he defines it more explicitly. So how does he define it and what our you objecting to in your definition.

Sorry, but this is not at all clear to me from you post.

Regards,
Coral

Hate the short edit time. Rereading I see that my nest to the last sentence should have read: So how does he define it and what are you objecting to in his definition.

Cold and broken or worn out are not the same thing. Love ends.

That's the bitter truth most people don't want to tell you. This doesn't mean it cannot be renewed again later on when you feel more complete in yourself. Recently an important scientist wrote this in answer to the question about what scientists believe in that cannot be proved. I think it is pretty eloquent:

"True love.

I've spent two decades of my life studying human mating. In that time, I've documented phenomena ranging from what men and women desire in a mate to the most diabolical forms of sexual treachery. I've discovered the astonishingly creative ways in which men and women deceive and manipulate each other. I've studied mate poachers, obsessed stalkers, sexual predators and spouse murderers. But throughout this exploration of the dark dimensions of human mating, I've remained unwavering in my belief in true love.

While love is common, true love is rare, and I believe that few people are fortunate enough to experience it. The roads of regular love are well traveled and their markers are well understood by many -- the mezmerizing attraction, the ideational obsession, the sexual afterglow, profound self-sacrifice and the desire to combine DNA. But true love takes its own course through uncharted territory. It knows no fences, has no barriers or boundaries. It's difficult to define, eludes modern measurement and seems scientifically woolly. But I know true love exists. I just can't prove it."

Those are the words of David Buss, author of a book called The Evolution of Desire.
Coral, I happen to agree with this. I also agree with Ian where he states that love is a verb. I'm not so sure I agree when Ian states he is not a romantic lol..!
To my understanding, Buss is stating that Love is in reality a mere exchange of word for "lust". That is my take on the first part you have quoted.
Most people in early phases of a realationship "think" they are in love; whereas in reality, they are merely in lust, which never lasts the test of time.

Lust is a cheap imitiation of the true love.

True love? True love can even exist without the sexual aspect, or when the sexual aspect is removed. The "true love" will remain intact. It can span decades of seperation, but it remains like a fire on one's heart. Never diminishing, never losing it's spark. It has nought to do with sex. The sexual aspect of true love is a mere addition, a physical display. To the two people involved, it is not the priority but rather the bi-product of the true love.

Just my 2 cents :)

Keppig... two cents from me:

I've heard and experienced that the initial "romantic" love you feel in a relationship will NOT last. For a relationship to survive the wearing off of it you need to "replace" that love with another kind of love...

That's not to say that you cannot still do romantic things for each other. After 6 years with Mrs. Clam, I've finally started to buy her flowers every so often for no reason at all. :D

But it took a long time to sink in, and wouldn't have happened if we hadn't come to terms with our relationship no longer having that new car smell, if you see what I mean.

RhapsodyInBlue, it's not that I'm not a hopeless romantic. I'm just not much for romantic love. I expect we are just quibbling over semantics here.

I beg to differ in the use of terms like "forever" or "always". Without the ongoing active use of the verb, love dies a natural death and I move on. PU and I remain free (in our idealism at least) to move on when the process is not longer a dialogue.

There are worse things than death.

Like clam, it took me a long time to trust in the little touches of romantic love. I distrusted them all and rejected them categorically. Now I'm afraid I've set a bad model for my daughters with big and little gestures that could be misconstrued as "mush". :D

Ian

I am very much a romantic. Rest assured romantic love is real. Post modernism would have us believe otherwise, but they have nothing but a quite debatable philosophical base to rest their case on. I think they are boobs. That's just me though.

The scientific evidence on the evolutionary psychology front, seems to confirm not only the logical reason why "Crazy romantic love" should exist, but neatly explains how it came about, and why in spite of it being a result of selfish genes that individual organisms who are not at all aware of the games genes play in designing them are not necessarily selfish. Romantic love is very much a reality, and thank God for that!

Ian, from what I know of your relationship with your spouse (through your own words), you are very much a romantic. :-) Romance is in the bond, not how you express it. I think you and your spouse have a very realistic relationship and I respect both of you enormously.

In my case, my emotions, unregulated as they are, are quite intense. I fall in love with someone and I stay there. I avoid getting too close to people for that very reason. Because it isn't something I can turn on and off like a switch and putting things behind me is consequently very difficult (although not impossible) for me. The fact is, if my ex were not being so cooperative and downright friendly in our divorce it would have down massive damage. As it is, I have been able to move on and have made the emotional transition from romantic feelings to friendly ones. Doing so still involved having to forgive her for all the hurts, but being as she did it for me it made it easier. Most importantly I met E-girl, who is all the evidence I need for the existence of romantic love. I think the switch just got flipped again. :-)

And a good thing that all is too because we got you back here with some zing back in your voice!
Cheers! Ian

Zing is a good thing. :-)

Hey, Coral Rhedd:

We understood it right anyway. Actually, I misread it the way you meant it.

We have a paper by Buss that's the source of the core arguments in his book. I dragged it out yesterday, and I'll go over it again on lunch and be more specific about what he's saying.

But it won't be such a big deal. Almost always, it ends up being an 'AD/HD vs. normal' kind of thing, where we've identified a mechanism in our research that he's overlooked, or minimized, or just plain missed.

And I can tell you up front, I'm certain that it's about how he treats the primitive strategy. If I recall correctly, even though he argues vociferously in support of the idea that totally different versions of the primitive strategy developed in females and males, he's missed completely the mechanisms that provide ways for males to effectively force females into primitive behavior without exposing them to too much personal danger.

If that sounds a bit like we're talking about the 'R' word, we are. The interesting and important bits are all about how the whole thing works on the female side, what the experience is and the effect it usually has on her. If Buss had correctly described the nature of the female experience, the entire world would have sat up and noticed.

It's a difficult subject, and even more difficult to get publishers interested in. We've thought a lot about it, and still don't have a good way to bring our understanding of it to the public's attention. Oh, well. We’re still working on it.

* * * * *

(Re)Turning to subject, and the rest of the posts:

That's why we feel it's important to recognize the role of your individual path in the big picture. Your universe only converges with that of another if you are truly walking the same way, with the same intentions, so your paths remain converged.

This yields a great litmus test for the truth of a relationship, something that ideally wouldn't be necessary. The need is dictated by the persistence of impulses associated with our primitive mating strategy, and the mechanisms that have arisen to allow us to be 'switched' between the primitive and modern strategies without seeing any inconsistency in our behavior.

In other words, we're all blind by design, and so we need a tool, something to verify whether our experiences are due to true love, or something else masquerading as true love. We usually call it 'the line of your life', and you can find a pretty good description about halfway down in our post here (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=59566#post59566).

(I'll tack the gist of it on the end of this post anyway…)

What's cool is how virtually everything mentioned here so far fits in neatly, even when someone doesn't exactly see how. (Ian, we're staring in your general direction again…) This is a first; usually, there's a real break between hard opinions based on arbitrarily incorporating primitive behaviors (as 'natural'), and the rest of us who see a higher path.

Ian's actually describing the whole principle as well as Kay and I ever have, how you have to find your true line, independently of anyone else, and must remain true to it if you expect love to be true.

We just have more confidence than he does that he and his wife are doing just that. After all the time they've traveled together, they're likely to always end up in the same place no matter what. As long as they keep going their individual ways, of course…

--Tom and Kay

* * * *


Before Kay and I worked out our own common models (so we could talk about these things), we had to have a way to deal with this, a mental picture of our relationship that always shone through, no matter how loud the social noise around us.

Part of the problem is the infatuation/in love/just plain love thing some of you alluded to. We not only wanted a way to tell the forest from the trees, we wanted a way to easily tell the different kinds of trees apart.

So after endless iterations, here’s what we use:

Imagine a life in which you commune with nature, living where you can work outdoors and follow your heart in your free time. Every morning you rise before dawn, walk a mile and a half up a steep trail that is too craggy for most, and sit on a broad flat rock almost at the top of the highest local peak. You watch the sun rise, and then go back down, recharged for the day ahead.

One morning, just at the sun’s first flare, a person you’ve never laid eyes on before steps off the trail and takes a seat on the rock beside you. A person of the opposite sex. Without a word, the two of you watch the sun come up, and then get up and walk back down to face the workaday world, also without a word.

This happens every day for the next few months; sometimes you arrive first, sometimes the other, and now you nod at each other in a comfortable way in the morning, and when you pass each other in town.

You know nothing about this person, not even a name or the sound of his/her voice. But in some other ways, you know everything important that there ever will be to know. Whatever life that person has had, when they are living near that peak, they have the impulse and drive to find that flat rock and watch the sunrise. An imposter might manage to drag themselves up there a time or two, but after a few weeks things are clear.

You know everything about what it takes in a person to be on that mountain at sunup, and you know that the two of you share that understanding. And each of you knows surely that the other knows, too.

How could any two people ever be closer than this, to know each other’s minds and hearts? And how does it come to be, other than as I described it? We think of it this way, too: each of you on that mountain has a life stretching out behind you, a long, continuous line through time, a reason for each gentle curve and sharp twist, decision after decision, each building on the last; a sense of the sense in every moment leading you to that moment on the mountaintop.

For me and Kay, this is love. These lines of your lives, for this perfect moment, take the same identical path, so close to each other as to be indistinguishable. And as the line of your life stretches out into the future, it’s trivial to see that you and the other will be together as long as your lines don’t diverge.

There are many reasons that they might, but you can tell in an instant if a diversion is bogus, even if it’s in your own line. And you don’t have to always be face to face, either; it’s the lines that are together. One or both of you can turn to look away with perfect confidence. It no longer matters if you can see the difference between the two strategies, or how the mechanisms of the primitive strategy can catch us unawares. The problems and confusion from things like infatuation are gone forever.

All you have to do is look to your line, at anytime. Meet somebody new? If you can’t see the path their line took to run along yours, or one has a sudden kink, or is missing altogether, look out!

Wonder if that significant other is really the one, even though he/she doesn’t give you the emotional depth you crave? Look at your lines. If they’re running along together just fine, then the depth is there; it’s just a problem of expression. Together, you can overcome that.

If your friend/lover/spouse’s line has been smack on top of yours all along, then you can be sure they truly love you, and that you’re equally true.

As for real diversions, like when the summer job ends and one of you has to return to school, it’s just as easy to see what you should do. There’s no reason for either of you to feel or fear resentment, or wonder about what might have been, or if one or the other is getting enough to balance whatever’s been given up.

What you get is to keep the lines running along together, and if that’s what you each want, then there isn’t any tradeoff. There’s just life, and you live it together.

And besides, the sun rises everywhere, eventually.

Maybe a bit off topic but when discussing Buss, and Stabile mentioning male/female strategy: How would that be translated in homosexual relationships.

In my humble opinion love is one of those words that is very subjective and is strictly open to personal interpetations. We learn about it from our families of origin and then by our own experiences.

Romantic love can be defined as purely physical feeling of attraction and desire or possibly as an erroneous way of describing an idealogical (sp?) view concept?

True love what is it? also open to subjection. Is it love that outlives the "lust" is it love that exists independant of lust as in the love for a child, sibling, etc. Is it love that lasts forever, can true love exist in the short term. Some of the problems I see in trying to define "true" love

then the soul mate thing... also in my opinion, I believe they are not limited to sexual relationships. To me they are souls that are a part of our many lives.. but that can only work for those people that believe in that type of thing. ;)

I've been to counsiling for a long time and all my counsilors tell me that romantic love is real but not an indicator that a love will be long lasting nor
that they would be a good mate at all.

I don't believe in romatic love anymore. My heart doesn't do flip flops or make me giddy. Yes I went through so much but I look at relationships very pratically, if you know what I mean. I feel broken. My ex husband wants to get back together with me. I feel comfortable with him and don't mind kissing but when I think about moving back together I feel my joy of life being sucked out. Have I gotten a cold heart?
I feel you and me have much alike in many ways. I have been dealing with my ex wanting me back. I feel comfortable being around him, making fun, spending time, and goofing off.. Just .. the intimacy .. for me is not there .
It must be extremely difficult for him though being we are temporarily in the same home. I don't like the thought and wont kiss him. Not even on the cheek. I feel like love for him has gone down the drain because of my feelings towards intimacy with him. I am not sure if I have become cold hearted. I feel though that love hurts. I finally found someone.. or we found eachother.. and when that happened it was a great begining as friends. I fell in love with him .. but it was not returned. Well, not really anyway. I am in a rut in my emotional state. That person I fell in love with is still in my life due to his purity of heart and honesty. I feel his is jaded and very bitter and still holds that in due to his past relationships. Not sure and I really don't like to guess. I know that I thought we were made for eachother.. is there really true romantic love. I am so romantic.. severly.. heh heh.. It is a weakness. I am not sure it is a good one at all....
Not sure .. if there is real love.. I want to believe in soul mates.. in twins.. you know of the heart.. just can't .. especially now.
My ex.. I feel is having to deal with what he put me through. he cheated that is why I left and I stayed for too long before leaving. Now he feels heartbroken and I could care less..
I do however fear being cold hearted .. towards anyone.

Let me preface this by stating I'm 45 and have never married. This doesn't mean I've never loved or experienced any of the endless variations on the theme. It does mean I've observed others and myself and opted out of the "zenith" expected in a relationship, which is marriage. I've traveled this path for several reasons and have been lucky enough to find a therapist in this neck of the woods with whom to discuss my views and actions, or inactions as some might perceive. I'll chat with her this next week and try to uncover any underlying issues I may not be facing. It will be hard, but I'm going to try and perhaps I can report back.;)

The point of mentioning a therapist is I don't see people work on themselves in relationships BEFORE they get married. I look at nearly every couple I know and don't crave or covet one bit of what I see. I have an average size social circle consisting of nearly all couples. Many of these I've known for 15 or more years. In almost every case, I know for a fact that either one, or both have commited horrible acts against the other. Some have caught their partner or know of their doings and some don't or pretend not to know. I've found this action starts right on the first date.

I understand we all want to make a good first impression but most individuals outright lie on the first few dates. Then, when the relationship strengthens or grows, they never come clean and instead reinforce the falseness. Why go into anything like this? I don't get why it's more popular to deceive and stay in a relationship, than to honestly exit stage left. Also, social traditions seem never questioned and are just followed no matter the cost.

I understand that my particular ADHD diagnosis has the fact that I question traditions, laws, and rules as one of it's traits. I understand I may be overzealous, but I currently live smack dab in the Bible belt and am astounded by the lack of thought given to love, relationships, and marriage. It's very common for a woman in her early 30's to have been married four or five times. Even more stunning is the popular perception that unmarried individuals must have something "wrong" with them. When I go out with a woman, I'm usually somewhat familiar with her marital record. In conversation on her past, (which they always bring up) I'll casually ask what split the union or caused the decention. The breakup is blamed on the other participant every time with no introspection done at all it seems.

How can people hate so bitterly a person with whom they once stood in front of friends and God in a ceremony of unity and devotion? Then, how can they do it again and again and again? It's like it means nothing. Seemingly, it DOES mean nothing, so I'm opting out.

We ADHD people work hard to make our lives better. I'm trying too, but it seems that to be in any type of relationship of any length, one must pretend to believe that which is not true, and profess untruths of ourselves. I'm not getting this at all.

I'll end my soapbox stand by stating that I very much believe in love and would like to personally enjoy the experience. However, I want honesty, trust, and love to be real and cherished, not tossed aside like yesterdays shoe fashion. I don't think most realize that what we are speaking of here, is work. Make yourself better daily and most other things will get better too. Work. No one wants to work.

Zippy: exiting stage left

zippy.....i agree with you completely. i was married ten years and the break up of that, though it was my decision and one that absolutely had to be done, remains the worst failure of my life. i believe in the vows one takes upon marrying.

i can say this, though, my ex will always be one of my dearest friends in this world. he is the father of my children, and i believe that to denegrate anything about him, is telling my children that half of who they are is just as bad. i am stunned that this practice seems to be the norm. it bothers me tremendously.

and i can also say honestly, that our relationship didn't fall apart because of him. it fell apart because of us. i cannot understand why people so easily do just what you described......blame it all on the other party. i have never done that in my life, and to his credit, neither has my ex.

we are parents and we are friends, and if a marriage has to end, it seems to me that that's the way it should do so.

as for true love and soulmates, i think i said in my first post on this thread that i want to believe it can happen. i know the possibility exists. but like you, i simply don't believe there are many out there who are willing to be honest and genuine, and most of all, do the work that is required to make sure you don't drift apart.

zippy.....i agree with you completely. i was married ten years and the break up of that, though it was my decision and one that absolutely had to be done, remains the worst failure of my life. i believe in the vows one takes upon marrying.

i can say this, though, my ex will always be one of my dearest friends in this world. he is the father of my children, and i believe that to denegrate anything about him, is telling my children that half of who they are is just as bad. i am stunned that this practice seems to be the norm. it bothers me tremendously.

and i can also say honestly, that our relationship didn't fall apart because of him. it fell apart because of us. i cannot understand why people so easily do just what you described......blame it all on the other party. i have never done that in my life, and to his credit, neither has my ex.

we are parents and we are friends, and if a marriage has to end, it seems to me that that's the way it should do so.

as for true love and soulmates, i think i said in my first post on this thread that i want to believe it can happen. i know the possibility exists. but like you, i simply don't believe there are many out there who are willing to be honest and genuine, and most of all, do the work that is required to make sure you don't drift apart.
I feel the same about my ex.. just that he loves me and wants me back and I dont have the same feelings in return. I never thought it would be that way and I am and have always been afraid of becoming cold hearted.

i really don't believe it's possible to become cold hearted when and if the right person comes along, with whom you can build that relationship that we've all referred to here.

my ex wanted me back too, but i was not and am not in love with him, and frankly, i believe the only reason he did want me back was because of the children. i understand that philosophy......but it isn't a reason to stay together. at least not as far as i'm concerned. we can be friends easily. living together and trying to have an intimate relationship is simply an impossibility.

i really don't believe it's possible to become cold hearted when and if the right person comes along, with whom you can build that relationship that we've all referred to here.

my ex wanted me back too, but i was not and am not in love with him, and frankly, i believe the only reason he did want me back was because of the children. i understand that philosophy......but it isn't a reason to stay together. at least not as far as i'm concerned. we can be friends easily. living together and trying to have an intimate relationship is simply an impossibility.
This is an understatement in my case.

itschaotic-RhapsodyInBlue, it's not that I'm not a hopeless romantic. I'm just not much for romantic love. I expect we are just quibbling over semantics here.

I agree. I am not much for the general use of the term "romantic love". We are discussing semantics.

I beg to differ in the use of terms like "forever" or "always". Without the ongoing active use of the verb, love dies a natural death and I move on.

Perhaps one has to live, or have lived, this type of love to speak of it? It can, and does, still remains active as in the verb "love".

PU and I remain free (in our idealism at least) to move on when the process is not longer a dialogue.

I totally agree with this concept.

There are worse things than death.

Far worse.

Like clam, it took me a long time to trust in the little touches of romantic love. I distrusted them all and rejected them categorically. Now I'm afraid I've set a bad model for my daughters with big and little gestures that could be misconstrued as "mush". :D

I am the type that would give up all the flowers, chocolates, and all of that mush to be wrapped in the warmth of true love. For me, and this is only imo, flowers etc, do not equal true love. But bring me home a few prawns? That's romance:D

Seriously, romance is the continutity of the active verb "love", imo.

Ian

Another great point brought up by several members!

What is the deal with people wanting to get back together? Is it like pain and we just can't remember or recall the feeling?

Along with multiple marriages here, it's very common for people to have remarried the same individual. Most I've dated, have approached me at some time after our romantic relationship had ended, and inquired or suggested giving it another try.

I think that behavior mirrors that on the posts below. Once again, good, healthy relationships are work and sacrifice that ends up making you feel great! It seems however, most would rather take the path of least resistance and go back to the status quo of laziness and misery.

Again, I'm left in the dark on this one. I just don't understand people wanting to repeat their actions, especially if melicious behaviour was involved.

Good Points Zippy. Sometimes I think that some people cannot not be in a relationship. They would rather be in an unhealthy relationship than on their own.

I have no idea why people would want to keep a path of laziness and misery going, and that factor eludes me. Perhaps many do not realize that a great relationship will not work like a Soap Opera, and yet I feel that a greater percentage "think" the beginning phase of a new relationship is how is should be all the time.

These types I feel are the ones that relationship hop. Almost addicted to the first feelings of "love/lust", but never allowing a relationship to blossom into true love.

Like you, I don't know why people repeat unhealthy actions. Totally illogical.

I am definately with you guys.. I analized my life, (which I do very often these days) and found I was in a rough and idiotic pattern. My personal point of view...
I am super happy I woke up but need freedom from the "ex". I was entering and repeating my lust for love, sex, touch, all the attention .. only temporarily .. knowing my ex was cheating on me at that time. It was stupid and I couldn't understand for the life of me why I didn't get "myself" out of that hole!
Now I am out but still struggling in ways.
The good thing is that this time, I am just staying abroad and not going back under. I don't ever intend to again either!

You know what I think is not romantic and I just don't understand why people do it because it is a real turn off for me -- postmortems of past relationships on first dates. Please give me some insight here as to why people do this and how to make them stop it.

Here's is my problem: I am asked out. I am looking forward to an evening of casual conversation, some mild flirting, and a discussion of common interests. What do I get instead? THE HISTORY. Some guy tells me about every woman in his past. How he was screwed over and how he hasn't gotten over it and he doesn't know if he ever will.

Then why is he out with me and dragging his baggage behind him. Not cool. I know I am I kind sympathethic person. I know I have a sweet face and big honest eyes. I know men can think of me as a friend. But why oh why must I hear all that gloomy stuff? I'll have time for it down the road when we know each other better.

This behavior is soooo unromantic. Don't people have any boundaries anymore? I want fun and instead I get the first date equivalent of The Springer Show.

What is the deal with people wanting to get back together? Is it like pain and we just can't remember or recall the feeling?

Along with multiple marriages here, it's very common for people to have remarried the same individual. Most I've dated, have approached me at some time after our romantic relationship had ended, and inquired or suggested giving it another try.


Glad you brought this up Zippy. I actually have some theories about this one.

It is no accident we are attacted to the people we are attracted to. Often I think we are pulled to people who represent unresolved issues in our past.

I once read (don't know if it is true or not) that most people tend to choose mates with the same personality traits as their mother. This indicates to me that people are dealing with unresolved nurturance issues. In other words, we are looking for someone to solve our problems. Here's the kicker: If Mom never gave us what we needed, let's say encouragement, we will team up with someone from whom we hope to get encouragement who has absolutely no capacity to be encouraging. In other words, we try to fill the hole of that childhood anguish. This would explain why people return to the same husbands/wives/lovers. They are trying to get closure.

We simply cannot accept that the only one who can give us what we are missing is ourselves.

While love is common, true love is rare, and I believe that few people are fortunate enough to experience it. The roads of regular love are well traveled and their markers are well understood by many -- the mezmerizing attraction, the ideational obsession, the sexual afterglow, profound self-sacrifice and the desire to combine DNA.

But true love takes its own course through uncharted territory. It knows no fences, has no barriers or boundaries.

I've discovered the astonishingly creative ways in which men and women deceive and manipulate each other. -Unfortunately, there are many people who equate these undesirable factors with 'true love'. I think 'true love' is too much effort for most people, and I have, recently, found that it tends to be one sided (which is a moot point). I'm going to stick with just 'regular like' from now on. I don't believe in 'true love' anymore, let alone 'regular love' in personal relationships. I'm not willing to give it, nor am I willing to even think of it anymore. So if I generally 'like' someone, that's good enough for me, but it's the only effort I'm willing to exude in personal relationships now. I'm handing the 'love' ball to someone else -permanently, to figure out how it bounces.
Nova

My number one criterion is respect. I like lots of people, but my deep down honest-to-god-wow-I-really-respect-a-guy is hard to come by. I look for moral integrity. I am not talking about religious faith here. I am talking about someone who has thought deeply about what he values and about what is right and wrong and, most important, fair play toward others. If a man doesn't treat others well, he won't treat me well either.

While love is common, true love is rare, and I believe that few people are fortunate enough to experience it. The roads of regular love are well traveled and their markers are well understood by many -- the mezmerizing attraction, the ideational obsession, the sexual afterglow, profound self-sacrifice and the desire to combine DNA.

But true love takes its own course through uncharted territory. It knows no fences, has no barriers or boundaries.

I've discovered the astonishingly creative ways in which men and women deceive and manipulate each other. -Unfortunately, there are many people who equate these undesirable factors with 'true love'. I think 'true love' is too much effort for most people, and I have, recently, found that it tends to be one sided (which is a moot point). I'm going to stick with just 'regular like' from now on. I don't believe in 'true love' anymore, let alone 'regular love' in personal relationships. I'm not willing to give it, nor am I willing to even think of it anymore. So if I generally 'like' someone, that's good enough for me, but it's the only effort I'm willing to exude in personal relationships now. I'm handing the 'love' ball to someone else -permanently, to figure out how it bounces.
Nova
This is so well expressed, and I wish we could echo it, but we can't.

But it isn't unreasonable at all. Ferreting out the truth about this subject is like following the hole the worm comes out of. Down below it's twisted and dark, and you have to wonder how it is we can even talk about it.

How could we know to how to speak about something that we're not supposed to see at all?

The answer is we're all changing, ADDer and normal alike. The whole point of relationships is (in a way) being transformed, and the idea of true love (which isn't really very old) is part of it.

What 'it' is, we are all in the process of working out. Kay and I have often stated that our research leads us to conclude that we're experiencing a speciation event, and we believe that we've just recently seen evidence that we've all just passed the cusp.

True love I alive and well, and it's pretty common. It's just beginning to get straightened out for the whole species.

So waiting a bit wouldn't hurt. Things are happening faster than we thought possible.


My number one criterion is respect. I like lots of people, but my deep down honest-to-god-wow-I-really-respect-a-guy is hard to come by. I look for moral integrity. I am not talking about religious faith here. I am talking about someone who has thought deeply about what he values and about what is right and wrong and, most important, fair play toward others. If a man doesn't treat others well, he won't treat me well either.
Funny thing about that. What we do with our brains, the thing that we can now do differently, gives us a far more direct connection to the real nature of our existence and the physical reality that surrounds us.

In other words, our common model of reality is becoming less relative (and uncertain) and more absolute, and the result is what we've termed "a kind of enforced moral consistency".

So looking for moral integrity gives you a quick and reliable take on whether someone has developed the same kind of internal logical structures you have. It lets you estimate whether another person has the ability to get up above the debris left over from the primitive strategy.

And you don't have to develop a way to talk about things we aren't supposed to see before you can use it.

--Tom and Kay

Stabile, could you please define "true love" as you see it? :)

I think romance is a part of love but it is not the 100% of the pie. that is the mistake alot of people make i am afraid.

Exactlllly. that is it romantic love is more than just romance.

Stabile, could you please define "true love" as you see it? :)
Ah, that would be the trick, wouldn't it?

We can define what the elements are, and we can talk about what some of the experiences are like. But the gestalt is a little elusive, if only because we don't have linguistic models for it in our common reality.

Which is what we're in the process of developing, here by doing this, and in many other ways as well.

As far as what we can say, it involves a special bond that changes the two people that share it. It seems to arise by accident, because the path of your life and your lover's life seem to meet and run along together.

But it also seems as if it couldn't possibly be accidental, as if inevitable destiny forged the bond. There is much that is mystical, on many levels. Kay and I can communicate telepathically, literally, and we occasionally do it on levels that we can't describe, because by definition they are outside the reality we all share.

There will never be a way to talk about them, as long as this is what talking is. But I could tell you what happened, if I thought it would make any sense and this was a bit more private.

Nothing about explaining what I could about these things would reproduce the experience, no matter how poetic I managed to be.

So instead, Kay and I set out to explain how communication between people works, first the kind we're doing here, and then the thing we do that is related to true love.

We're beginning to develop a way to talk about the technical details, what happens inside our brains when all this goes on, the telepathy, true love, the whole thing.

But technical details aren't ever going to encapsulate the true nature of true love, regardless of how accurate and true they are. And the interesting thing about them so far is that they don't preclude the mystical aspects of true love at all; instead the details pinpoint and validate exactly where the mystical aspects hide out, as it were.

There isn't any lack of a sexual side to true love, either, and so some of us can define it by the very special ways that we find we're able to express ourselves this way. And these things are (of course) impossible to talk about in the same way that Kay and I can't describe adequately the ways that we communicate directly without words, or what we do when we're doing that.

SB_UK has pointed out in another thread that there is a special aspect of intimacy that has to do with the convergence of how we understand ourselves, each other, and the world we inhabit.

That's just another way of saying our common reality models; in this sense, intimacy involves having a special shared model with another person, one that is much closer and more precisely congruent than the one everyone shares, that enables us to communicate with words.

The connection between this narrowly defined higher form of intimacy and true love is at the emotional level (Duh!). We could legitimately define true love as the experience of living in this special converged state of intimacy with another.

The purpose of our shared reality model is to allow us to communicate. Obviously, the more closely your shared reality matches that of your lover, the better you're able to communicate, whether through words, emotional experience, or physically.

Which is (of course) the reason that true love is associated with a kind of special quality of the physical act of making love. But if such a special quality is possible, then the potential for it must exist in all of us. The physical mechanisms must be implicit in our physiology and ordinarily unrecognizable.

The implication is that there is a whole world out there that we don't normally touch, even though it's never more than a hairsbreadth away. In that context the thing we gain through true love is the ability to go out there and communicate, and that's what defines it.

As I said, technical details aren't very revealing, or satisfying, either. There is still a profound question of who and why that only comes more sharply into focus with understanding them, and maybe that's what we’re really looking for anyway.

* * * *

If that sounds like we're saying we know it when we see it, or you'll know it when it happens to you, it's not really like that at all.

But there are valid reasons that it might look that way, mainly having to do with how we define our own reality using the same abilities that allow us to begin to address these questions in the first place.

We are able to logically connect the aspects of our reality on a deeper level than possible when interpreting life's experiences the normal way. When we look at something, we can see what normals see, and more.

And obviously, it doesn't work the other way; it's not like we have one point of view, and the normal take is just different. But the language languishes behind, and we can't talk about it nearly as well as we understand it.

So sometimes, it sounds like we’re implying you'll know it when you see it. But it's really just this: we're all still trying to find ways to speak about it, but we don't see any reason to deny we understand it, at least a little bit.

--Tom and Kay

The bottom line in this thread is that everyone is confused about what love is what it is not, etc....doesn't matter if your ADD or not.

I agree with the post with the guy in the boat (as a picture) lol cant remember your name sorry.
People have a hard time taking what is theres, bad or good. Bad most particular.
I too need honesty in my life, and need to surround myself with people who are not afraid to go and do some soul searching once in a while. I have never been married cause i never felt ready to commit for the rest of my life with the men i have been with. For different reasons that are pretty clear to me. I did have kids tho with them, because i always wanted kids as far as i can remember. I have never put down any of my ex to the kids EVER, because as you said at one point i did love them enough to have a relationship and have a kid with. Ok to not lose track of what i was trying to say., ( sigh). I am an authentic person , what you see is what you get . I have a strong self of integraty, what i am in front of you i will be even if you are not there. I have taken 7 yrs off any relationships , because i knew i needed to know myself and love myself first before i could ever get a chance at a good relationship. Now i am ready and very excited to start this new experience.

Digitl who wonders if the dating world is ready for her :D

cameron, I don't feel confused at all, fortunate yes.
Ian.

The bottom line in this thread is that everyone is confused about what love is what it is not, etc....doesn't matter if your ADD or not.
Can't agree because I don't think there is one absolute truth about love. Opinions vary. But a variety of opinions does not necessarily mean there is confusion. Sometimes there is just honest disagreement. I do think people are more likely to find what they want however if they know what they are looking for. ;) This is why each individuals own definition and clarity improves that person's chances

I was born confuzzled. Love has nothing to do with that. I know exactly what true love is, and why it exists. At least I have an answer that works for me, and, frankly, it's a quite plausible one with evidence on the scientific side to support it. If anyone's interested I'll be happy to provide it.

The answer to whether or not it exists is rather common sensical I think. Myths that are clearly incorrect about how people tick don't generally persist. The fact that the major detractors from the existance of romantic love these days are the Post modernists, ought to be enough evidence by itself that it exists. Post modernists are more bad philosophers than scientists, or poets. Their interpretations are ridiculous and their art is plain ugly. A consequence of keeping ahead of the common man in "sophistication" with the advent of mass media. That's just my opinion of course. I'm sure a post modernist could "deconstruct" it to discover I'm only on about corn flakes. Anyway, rant complete.... Have a beautiful day!

In short, my answer wouldn't do much more than raise more questions for many of you.... Maybe we need to reformulate the question?

Well we did get sort of a general agreement that romantic love (giggly tingly flowery stuff) may not be real but that true love (huge committment) is. It might be worth departing from the romantic assumptions to actually discuss what works and what doesn't.

I will throw one strongly held and hard won opinion: Love is for grownups. Most people who marry younger than 21 are simply not emotionally prepared for the challenges.

The answer to whether or not it exists is rather common sensical I think. Myths that are clearly incorrect about how people tick don't generally persist. The fact that the major detractors from the existance of romantic love these days are the Post modernists, ought to be enough evidence by itself that it exists. Post modernists are more bad philosophers than scientists, or poets. Their interpretations are ridiculous and their art is plain ugly. A consequence of keeping ahead of the common man in "sophistication" with the advent of mass media. That's just my opinion of course. I'm sure a post modernist could "deconstruct" it to discover I'm only on about corn flakes. Anyway, rant complete.... Have a beautiful day!
Because of deconstructionism I almost didn't get my graduate degree. For the longest time I simply could not get my head around it. Finally I figured out it was a game and figured out how to play it well enough.

That's more a consequence of "Real life" being for grownups I think than "True love" being for grownups.

I Qualify this by saying that in cultures where the age of maturity is somewhat lower than it is in our society 21 might well be considered a seasoned adult. It's all about when people are exposed to the "adult world" whatever that means where you are.

Because of deconstructionism I almost didn't get my graduate degree. For the longest time I simply could not get my head around it. Finally I figured out it was a game and figured out how to play it well enough.

Oh, it's a game all right. LMAO!

"Romance is mush stifling those who strive." Lush life is a classic tune and speaks some wisdom for me.

I have never been much on romance except in the classic use of the term. But love/romance is not me. I'm a big believer in love though but I believe it to be a verb not a noun.

It's an action and something to be given away. I've been fortunate enough to have found a partner that participates in that dialogue. We've been married 19 years.

I'm not one for hanging on either. When we were married we took on another last name that means "Thou mayest" giving each other permission to be gone if it's not working. Talk about romantic! ehhe An idealist? Oh... maybe!

My gut almost never lies to me in matters of the heart. If it isn't feeling right then I would not run with it. Life is too short and the pain of separation too strong to waste a minute there.

With guys I call romantic love "thinking with the little head". We all know that's not where men shine particularly brightly.

Keppig you don't have a cold heart. You have a heart that has learnt to protect itself. Time is the only healer for me on that one. Some day I hope you are able to risk the pain again. When it works, there is nothing quite like it but it must be the toughest thing to practise once into a loving relationship. It's always an evolution if it's still a living thing.
Hugs. Ian
This is good stuff!

Especially this part
I'm a big believer in love though but I believe it to be a verb not a noun.
I think I have felt this way all of my life and not known how to express it. Thanks for making it clear to me.

That's more a consequence of "Real life" being for grownups I think than "True love" being for grownups.

I Qualify this by saying that in cultures where the age of maturity is somewhat lower than it is in our society 21 might well be considered a seasoned adult. It's all about when people are exposed to the "adult world" whatever that means where you are.Maybe people in cultures where everything is sort of programmed in and they don't have to think about this stuff much are actually happier.

Here is what is tough: This is the one area where you are not supposed to make mistakes -- especially if you are a woman. Everything else has an acceptable learning curve. If you approach these matter more experimentally, you run the risk of being called a s - - t. Let me offer a cross generational example. When I married a woman was supposed to be a virgin and I was. I married at nineteen and it was a terrible mistake but because getting divorced was "bad" I lived with my terrible mistake for seventeen years.

I brought my daughter up very differently. I wanted her to feel free to experience more of life before making a serious committment. At 22 she has lived with three men altogether. She left the first young man because incompatibility problems. She left the second because he was a cheat and a liar and a user. The third man is a bit older than she is and makes good money and this is giving her lots of time and freedom to "find herself." My friends are quite shocked. (And they are not religious conservatives either.) Here they see a young woman utterly exercising her choices when it comes to men but her very freedom makes them quite uneasy. These friends of mine are feminists. They are all for equal pay but not for equal play.

Frankly I don't understand why the one thing society expects most of us -- settling down to marriage as a viable economic unit and producing children -- allows young women no practice time.

Hi all, I have been reading Women with ADD and I wonder if the reason I don't believe in Romanitic love is because I don't understand the whole social thing of dating. I either say too much or nothing on dates, and I'm so terrible with talking to people I don't know well. At the last hockey game I was at (Company Event), there were two really nice guys who work in another office of my company, and when they said hello to me, I couldn't think of anything to say but "Great Place isn't it?!) I never felt so unattractive and it wasn't because of anything they said but how I felt inside.
This book really has open my eyes!

^ dating sucks. plain and simple. Before I go out on a date I make it clear to the other person that I don't have some hidden agenda meaning "no strings attached" if it goes further than that. Or that I'm not looking for some deep meaningful relationship as friendship is what I'm after. I date frequently and have found that when one or both parties are meeting with the pretense of carrying on with some type of relationship whether it be long or short term the conversations go in a different direction and it's just not "cool hanging out conversation".
Then again, you should always be yourself and if the other person is right for you they'll appreciate your conversation no matter how long or short they are.
I'm no expert though, I've had some really bad dates and some fantastic ones. Neither which have ended in some meaningful relationship though, those just kind of happen.

Although I have a faith in love but what many of these post deal with not love but trust. I have to trust an individual to allow them to become close to me emotionally, spiritually, with physicial limits. It was hard for me to understand when I first head it but trust issues begin with self. I love one of my daughters and we are fairly close. We have gone through trials, pain tears, never mind years, we worked through not only our own emotions but each others emotions. I would trust her with my life before I would trust her with a carton of ciggeretts, or a pound of cholocate. I know her limits, and am not stupid about it.

Can't agree because I don't think there is one absolute truth about love. Opinions vary. But a variety of opinions does not necessarily mean there is confusion. Sometimes there is just honest disagreement. I do think people are more likely to find what they want however if they know what they are looking for. ;) This is why each individuals own definition and clarity improves that person's chances
I so agree with this.

What i would like is a kind honest gental understanding patient reasonably attractive man. he does'nt have to look like a movie star (but he cannot be ugly either) but just enough.

The bottom line in this thread is that everyone is confused about what love is what it is not, etc....doesn't matter if your ADD or not.
Actually, if we sounded confused, it's our mistake. We're not at all confused, and there are several others among us that are certain the same way.

What's difficult is using words to talk about it. Words carry an implicit tyranny of scope; we can only talk about those things that we all know, and we all know everyone else knows.

This is a new subject, really. We aren't all sure what everyone else knows, yet, and some aspects of true love can't be described with language as it is currently structured, because it's limited in dimension as well as scope.

I think that's what you mean, yes?

But we certainly know what it is…

--Tom and Kay

If you were closer Tom & Kay I'd be hugging you. :) I get a physical thrill reading things like that. Goose bumps.. I love this place.

"Talking about music is like dancing about architecture".
Steve Martin

It is cool, isn't it? We don't go 24 hours without at least one discussion involving it.

Actually, I guess we're saying that we're cool – the community as a whole. It does fill a space…

We sure like these people.

--Tom and Kay

Stabile, I want to thank you for your response to my question. I have never seen the theory of love explained so eloquently. Thank you!

I don't believe we are all confused either. I think our perceptions may differ, but the end goal remains the same.

There have been some truly beautiful posts in this thread, and each has shown their own way of perceiving love. :)

"Romance is mush stifling those who strive." Lush life is a classic tune and speaks some wisdom for me.


Life is too short and the pain of separation too strong to waste a minute there.

When it works, there is nothing quite like it but it must be the toughest thing to practise once into a loving relationship. It's always an evolution i.

Ian,

this is something I actually needed to hear.. Something I always tell myself. I would not know to tell another because I am not one to say I am perfect and I could be wrong.. ya know?

I don't want to waste time on a min of pain anymore.. what was done is DONE and what happened .. it happened.. past tense .. no more.. that is it!
That is something many I know can not percieve. I am not sure your pretense on this matter actually, but I feel as though I have been able to forgive my own as well as other's mistakes but I need to keep going. No chances left for repair just adjustment for future. Am I being insensative? Not sure.. I know how I feel. I want to keep going. I am hearing many say, "practice is key". offf! what a headache .. but you know.. I am so willing to do this..I too feel it is always going to be an evolution..
And yes.. I feel .."when it works there is nothing quite like it"...

*thumbs up*

The more detached I can be and remain compassionate the better. I'm glad my comments struck a chord for you.

Resentment and blame are killers. The universal principles remain useful to me. Patience, tolerance, forgiveness all provide me with a way out of a negative cycle.

These principles are easier to access for me if I regularly touch base with some quiet calm time. I do this twice a day. It's wonderful to face those with whom I've been impatient or frustrated and know that I can let it go and move on.

In this way I avoid being just the flip side of the same coin and secure a place on a path that won't have the same mistake repeating for me endlessly.
Cheers! Ian.

Ian,

Thanks for the words.. and yes they help.
I just really hope I can comply with the entirety of giving myself some down/calm time.. i think I need it. I am starting to feel more at ease with every task that I have gotten done these past couple of days. I want this to show with the fact that I am wanting to give someone love for real and entirely. I have found a great compassionate friend and hope that one day it can be what "works" as you put it.. who knows but I juts want to be able to give only what is felt correctly.. wait... is there a correct way to give? Can anyone give comments... I know more but want opinion..

Romantic love is a gigantic crock of BS that we're all "expected" to find and have every day. No, it's not real. Reality is, initial attraction dies and if you are lucky is replaced with something sort of substantial, but nowhere near what "romantic love" is hyped up to be.

Then again, I'm wicked jaded by life so you might not want to listen to me if you're of the faint hearted variety!

I couldnt take the time to read through all that but they say people with adhd tend to fall in love much quicker due to it raising dopamine levels in your brain, i found that fascinating and from my past experiance i tend to fall in love toooooooo quick.

Does anyone know if thats for real ?!

I couldnt take the time to read through all that but they say people with adhd tend to fall in love much quicker due to it raising dopamine levels in your brain, i found that fascinating and from my past experiance i tend to fall in love toooooooo quick.

Does anyone know if thats for real ?!
There is a thread on this.. but I am the same.. but I have also realized it and I have kept my distance. I only let go one time in my recent months.. finally after a long and harsh relationship with my ex I decided I could let go and fall in love.. I thought it was too soon. May have been.. but I found the greatest friend I have ever encountered in this. Not sure I can say I regret it at all. I am sure though(after much thought and analization of the matter) that I did fall completely and I am still alone. But in this I found it to be REAL.

I couldnt take the time to read through all that but they say people with adhd tend to fall in love much quicker due to it raising dopamine levels in your brain, i found that fascinating and from my past experiance i tend to fall in love toooooooo quick.

Does anyone know if thats for real ?!
We were just talking about this today.

We believe that it has to do with our ability to 'see' an arbitrary course of action in complete form, and carry it out.

In other words, we can see a path that makes sense, is logically coherent, and we can arbitrarily walk ourselves down it.

The problem with this is twofold. Firstly, in the past (and for normals still true) this truly was the essence of honest commitment. Thus, there is a historical imperative that can be used to argue we should do it, just because we can see the possibility.

(That argument can be a tough one to resist, because it appeals to honesty. If we're honest, we'll admit we can see a logically correct possibility, that it does exist.)

Secondly, and most importantly for us ADDers, arbitrary is not nearly good enough. 'Seeing' a coherent logical path doesn't make it true, only correct.

This attitude creates problems, because we no longer settle for what used to be a good enough excuse for a lifelong commitment. But it also gives us a way out, because we can be honest about things that are possible and logically correct without compromising our honest understanding that they don't truly represent where we want to go with our lives.

Correct doesn't do it for us anymore; we're better than that, now. There are millions of ways to live, all of them correct in a way, but only one holds truth for you.

And that's the only one we can live with. Call it AD/HD or just social progress, that's what seems to be happening.

Given that there are millions of people cruising around out there for whom this is not the way, we're all going to have to put up with some confusion and resentment for a while. Their best argument, the fact that we know it would be possible to do what they want, that it would even be logically correct, is rapidly turning to ashes in front of their eyes.

But that's strictly their problem, as long as we don't give in and accept an arbitrary relationship that isn't true for us.

So hang in there, and strive to be personally honest. We're living proof that it's worth any amount of effort and frustration.

--Tom and Kay

BTW: While all that in our previous post might indeed have some relationship to dopamine levels in the brain, it isn't in any way a direct causal link. That idea needs to be put to rest, sooner rather than later if we have our way.

Looking at dopamine levels is sort of like looking at the amount of oil in the crankcase of an engine to decide if the vehicle attached carries strawberries or bananas.

You might be able to tell if the vehicle is a truck or a passenger car with a certain degree of reliability, but the thing you really want is a peek at the bill of lading.

The amount of oil is a distantly derivative measure of the 'truck-ness' of the vehicle; the possibility that, if it is a truck, it might hold a certain kind of fruit isn't really strongly indicated.

And the most obvious thing might be this: there is no way to declare that a vehicle with less oil in the engine is somehow deficient, even if it never has any fruit aboard. It just doesn't relate, and the same logic applies to comparing dopamine levels in normals and ADDers.

If there's really a difference, it's an accidental feature of something totally different going on underneath. It just doesn't mean a thing.

--Tom and Kay

Ian,

Thanks for the words.. and yes they help.
I just really hope I can comply with the entirety of giving myself some down/calm time.. i think I need it. I am starting to feel more at ease with every task that I have gotten done these past couple of days. I want this to show with the fact that I am wanting to give someone love for real and entirely. I have found a great compassionate friend and hope that one day it can be what "works" as you put it.. who knows but I juts want to be able to give only what is felt correctly.. wait... is there a correct way to give? Can anyone give comments... I know more but want opinion..
My experience with this is that it's a skill that responds to practise. I'm only a beginner and as I accept the process I become better able to implement the practise.

Your aim is high and that's admirable. Go easy on yourself as you build up your skill set. I'm so hard on myself that I tend to interfere with my ability to progress for all the hits I take over not being somehow better than I am. It's ludicrous and inappropriate. I am who I am and beginning at all is best with a healthy dose of authenticity.
Forgiving myself is so hard.


Looking at dopamine levels is sort of like looking at the amount of oil in the crankcase of an engine to decide if the vehicle attached carries strawberries or bananas.

Tom & Kay - Do you sell t-shirts? ;)

Ian

Thanks Ian and Tom&Kay you are most informative.. all of you give good opinion and to know this is comming from experience makes it much easier to take in.

Ian,

I have noticed that I aim too high... I guess that is one of the other details that urks me. I don't want to end up pushing anyone away now or later that I really want to please even though I know from inside my heart I don't want to change anyone or change for anyone else. I mean yes, I can be there and make room for someone else.. always be a friend and love with all of me .. definately a huge heart full of romantic antics.. lol

but I am full of worries that I may fall into changing before I know it. As to say I may notice AFTER the fact that I finally get into the relationship. I want to be sure I don't end up hurting anyone. I don't feel my friend or anyone in my life deserves this. For many in my life are superb beings that can not see in themselves what I have..

comments?

The problem with describing why we're seeing this stuff is that it doesn't say what we should do about it in any specific and practically useful way.


…I have noticed that I aim too high... I don't want to end up pushing anyone away now or later that I really want to please even though I know from inside my heart I don't want to change anyone or change for anyone else…

…but I am full of worries that I may fall into changing before I know it. As to say I may notice AFTER the fact that I finally get into the relationship. I want to be sure I don't end up hurting anyone. I don't feel my friend or anyone in my life deserves this. For many in my life are superb beings that can not see in themselves what I have…
That uncertainty is a big problem, and it doesn't help much to point out that feelings like this show how completely we've transcended the old ways of thinking.

We weren't around the first time this happened (to our oldest ancestors), but I imagine it always feels similar to this. We gain an ability that allows us deep new insights into ourselves and our social circumstances, and by definition we're cast adrift: the old models don't work anymore, and we can't develop new models to guide us until after we have some experience with it.

So our job is to focus on that, what the new models should be like. We're stuck with it, and it can really s**k, but the upside is we’re getting to set the pattern for relationships for the next (insert long time here).

We can tell you something about the process, having been through it without any anesthesia. Kay and I were awake and aware of what we were trying to do, because we knew what it was about before we started (for reasons that aren't important to go into right now).

The easy part is figuring out how to think about it, the actual model. We've talked about our version of it in several posts, and it's perfectly adequate for the job. (We're talking about the line of your life model that we mentioned earlier.)

It's just a model, so any equivalent way of formulating it is just as good. Make up any story you want; like I said, that's not the hard part. The real difficulty is integrating it into your view of reality, accepting it as a natural way to instinctively respond to social situations, or evaluate your own (or someone else's) circumstances.

And when we say difficult, we really mean it. Go back and read Ian's posts; they don't exactly hint at a pretty little perfect fairy tale, do they? From what we've read so far, Kay and I can probably one-up anyone's stories.

We're all ready to shoot ourselves in the foot when we try to do this sort of thing; there isn't any kind of adaptation that is possible, for many practical reasons. The biggest roadblock is a monumental miscalculation of how strongly the old instincts affect our judgment, even when we're warned and aware of it.

So you should all expect a rocky transition. I don't think there is any way to avoid it, if these mechanisms are to be strong enough to function correctly. We still like the line of your life model, because it's fairly accurate, and it’s also orthogonal. It functions (in a sense) at right angles to the problems that arise from the transition, and they don't interact too much. Things may get messy, but the model stays relatively clean.

It also works. You just start by trying to see the principle in action, in your own life and the lives of everyone around you, everyone you've ever known. Sooner that you might expect, you'll begin to interpret behavior in terms of the new model, and some things, like cable TV soft porn (for example), begin to look really silly.

You'll also be buffeted by your emotional reaction to seeing the situations of people you care for in terms of your new model, made doubly difficult by the fact they often don't see any problem at all.

And so it goes, on and on. It took Kay and me two intense years and three more or less bumpy ones, and we had already been (happily) together for more than twenty-five years. The truth is, it would probably be easier to do alone; the problem with that is that it usually requires two people to figure out there's really something substantial to deal with.

And it does seem to be less of a problem for our kids; if our theories are correct, it should be getting a lot easier with every new generation. But they haven't really gone cold turkey yet. They're nice, generous, warm hearted people, but to an extent they're still riding on the backs of our efforts to bring them up right.

Doing it is worth any effort, as we said before, and we gave our boys that spirit, too, so we’re not worrying about them. It's certainly possible, inevitable in terms of the species itself. We just happen to be the lucky individuals that get to enjoy the wild ride.

So: there's the way out, the cure for uncertainty, and what we need to do is focus on hashing out the details of the new models that we want to use, over and over until they begin to seem like second nature.

(Keep posting. Post a lot. Post the same things over and over. It works for us…)

Occasionally, when we were stuck in some really dark place, Kay used to say, "We're doing this so other people don't have to." We could ask Ian if he doesn't harbor a similar suspicion; I suspect there's a deep truth to it.

If Kay's vision is true (if we weren't just hallucinating from lack of sleep), maybe it won't be too bad for y'all after all. Maybe all we need to do now is talk about it, keep talking about it, and try.

--Tom and Kay

Thanks Ian and Tom&Kay you are most informative.. all of you give good opinion and to know this is comming from experience makes it much easier to take in.

Ian,

I have noticed that I aim too high... I guess that is one of the other details that urks me. I don't want to end up pushing anyone away now or later that I really want to please even though I know from inside my heart I don't want to change anyone or change for anyone else. I mean yes, I can be there and make room for someone else.. always be a friend and love with all of me .. definately a huge heart full of romantic antics.. lol

but I am full of worries that I may fall into changing before I know it. As to say I may notice AFTER the fact that I finally get into the relationship. I want to be sure I don't end up hurting anyone. I don't feel my friend or anyone in my life deserves this. For many in my life are superb beings that can not see in themselves what I have..

comments?
I've never mastered the art of making omlettes without breaking eggs.. let me know how it goes.. ;)

Fear of change just isn't in my nature I don't think. It is through change that I learn. If I do nothing, I make no mistakes. I sat in that limited position and nearly died from the consequences. Now I are less about controling all the details and try to enjoy the ride.
Cheers! Ian.

Occasionally, when we were stuck in some really dark place, Kay used to say, "We're doing this so other people don't have to." We could ask Ian if he doesn't harbor a similar suspicion; I suspect there's a deep truth to it.


More and more I feel like we all live in the same soup. If someone is a little salty we all become a little more salty. I try and add the spice in good faith. Sometimes I add good things to the flavour sometimes not. Overall the soups tasting pretty good thanks to such great the cooks with whom I swim. :D
Cheers! Ian

Ian, you are such and awesome help lol
superb might I add
lol
Thanks for the words. I definately believe you have a good point. I even think a close friend of mine stated the same himself. About change.. being a good thing. I want to learn how to accept this change.. I am starting to with my own personal dilemas but.. well I guess I am learning to let go. I am not going to be selfish.

Please don't forget to feed back in here with what you learn along the way. I'm not quite baked yet and could use the input. :)
Cheers! Ian

I definately will let everyone know. I am feeling as if things have definately changed with me and the one person I called my best freind. I still feel he is my closest but I was/ am so madly in love with him that being friends makes it difficult to move ahead. I started to notice myself wanting to show him that we were alike in more than average ways and wanting to be at his side always. knowing that I want to be able to move along with my own life as well as him his. And still meet in the middle once in a blue to spend some time. I was loosing focus.. bad huh? I am not sure but I feel good knowing I am accomplishing what I have focused on as my personal goals and it makes everything else in my life sort of balance you know? well I will keep posting..

Ian and Charismasdream, you two brought up a point to me. I have been so unselfish in my past relationships so much so that I got trampled on. I then went to the other extreme and lost out in my last relationship. Its a balance. I have remember, relationships need Patience, tolerance, forgiveness to make a lasting love. I really believe that. On both parts of the relationship.

I believe you have good points Keppig.. very good and you are superb to notice your good points. keep that with you always. I believe we never loose out though. I feel we just learn. I am hurting on a daily basis to tears that fall and smiles that are piercing with their hidden agenda. It is my curse to love too much I think .. heh heh
but you know... I don't ever want to change me. :D