Gack!
So I finally work up the courage to ask this sweet young lady out (only took me a few months) and I get the 'sure. But I'm only looking for a friend right now' thing. Ack... I mean, I know that's not the death of possibility and I'd rather start as friends anyway but wouldn't it be nice to have someone excited to have you ask? I've worked through my 'cant be loved' garbage and my 'I dont have anything to offer' garbage but is it unreasonable to want someone to be as excited about you as you are about her?
*Sighs* Well, the adrenaline's coming back down so I don't feel quite so whacked out but now what? I haven't had many relationships in the past, and none where I asked her out 'classicly', except today. I recognize it's not a big deal either way but I so rarely meet women I really have any interest in that I always feel soo much pressure to make it work.
Am I just way out here? This dating thing never made much sense to me...
Mostly just blowing off steam... Mostly... :D

The thing is that the more you want it the harder it is to get. So let it go and just get on with your life. If and when you get yourself in a position where you are content without.. it'll be there right when you no longer need it, but I'm guessing you'll still want it and all will be good. There is so much to do and regrets are nasty!

It's a weird game but it works every time.

The less interested you are the better. Get a life and live it. The rest follows.

Women generally are interested in confidence and security. These can't be bought but they can be earned. It's all part of growing up. I think it's sad there aren't better mentors for guys as they come of age. There are some for women but most of the models (for behaviour) for guys are way lame.
Good luck and don't forget to take it easy.
Cheers! Ian.

I call that "the Treatment." Welcome to the new world of having a platonic friend!

The thing is that the more you want it the harder it is to get. So let it go and just get on with your life. If and when you get yourself in a position where you are content without.. it'll be there right when you no longer need it, but I'm guessing you'll still want it and all will be good.
Maybe that's what this lady is doing. Act like you don't want it, don't appear desperate, weed out the losers and be left with a genuinely nice guy.....I married my best friend and after ten years of marriage he still is, so I guess it works.

but just in case she's a cold-hearted manipulative b*tch try to enjoy your times out and not be a sucker (gah...you're right, the dating thing is wierd :confused: )



Well I was no help.
Try to have a good time, K?

What's the "Treatment"? I really would like to know, lots of my guy friends who I game with use that term. It sounds like a negative thing. What is it?

The Treatment is very simple: "I don't want a relationship, I just want to be friends."

Now, that can be delivered many ways..."I don't want to risk our friendship..." "I can't deal with a relationship now..." "I think you're really great, but I just want to be friends..." "I'm not interested in a relationship with you right now..." "I just don't feel that way about you, but I want to be your friend." "I like what we have right now, don't you?"

It's generally pretty nasty, because it means you're practically done. It translates to "I will keep you around and keep you as a friend, even though you want more." It's terrible, because it puts the man in a position where he still has to be a friend, because he doesn't want to lose the friendship of the woman he loves, but, at the same time, he can't get what he ultimately desires, which is a loving relationship.

It's much more difficult than normal rejection to "move on" from, and it's much more painful because the girl will be going on as usual, while you can neither move on, seek outside relationships, or ever get what it is you actually want...

The Treatment is bad. It's like the worst thing for men.

It translates to "I will keep you around and keep you as a friend, even though you want more."
Yup. This is classic and I've seen it countlessly (both personally and observed). It seems to be a defense mechanism in most girls to both hold onto something they value (a friendship) but still pursue what they want (the dangerous, confident man). I've had many female friends over the years. Some were romantic interests that did precisely this.

The problem with it is most of the 'nice guys' have been abused by women holding out for someone more what they're looking for and (we) end up stuck hearing about how much she wishes she would stop ending up with jerks. I've been there, desperately hoping she'd suddenly see me as the man of her dreams, etc... I've known many a guy to fall into the support role of the 'friendship' for years. years... and the girl keeps on going on perfectly willing to pretend there's no tension, no heartache. A friend of mine (female actually) says this is having the benefits of a intimate relationship without the costs.

That isn't fair. In fact, it's selfish... Ladies, your 'friends' you've been dragging along so you have something to cry on deserve better treatment. Either take them as serious potential mates (you already know they can be supportive and loving) or let the relationship go and, although it'll hurt them too, they'll heal and move on finally and maybe have a chance at a real relationship. When they're just hoping for you there's never a chance...

Men, we deserve better. If she isn't accepting you for who you are and have a real interst in becoming more intimate (emotionally, mentally & physically) then understand she's deliberately hurting you. She's not stupid. Not unaware. Most women are very intuitive about such things... She's just closing her eyes to it and pretending it's not that bad. After all, she thinks, her needs are being met so why shouldn't yours be too?

I once spent years hoping, praying, that one young lady, my best-friend at the time would grow to love me. She did, but not romantically and she once told me she wished I just wouldn't want more so we could just be friends. I thought that was pretty crappy. That finally woke me up to this idea and I realized I didn't deserve to be treated like that. When I extricated myself it hurt her too (Not that I was mean about it but most girls don't seem to understand how unfair this is) and ultimately destroyed the friendship. Yes, I miss the intimacy somedays, that's a big part of what I want in a relationship, but the cost was too great. To subvert my feelings and my desires was incredibly painful and destructive.

I, personally, am not OK with 'just being friends'. Of course I said, 'OK' to this young lady but unless she renews interest, I'm not going to sit there and pretend I don't have an interest or want more. I'll be pleasant and decent but not chase this sillyness.

Not to say I'm against male-female friendships. I think they're great and critically important to a stable person but the few I have are specifically kept a certain distance. I believe men and women are built to connect and if we draw too close one or both, invariably, develop feelings for the other so I'm very careful about who I allow in. I know I'll get flack for that.
Mostly just a chance to rant... But it's my thread, darn-it. ;)

< /$.02 >

Just wanted to add to this....

When I met my wife almost 14 years ago, she was not looking for a relationship. She was working out of a dead-end engagement and was not in the market. Since we had similar interests and enjoyed each other's company, we hung out a lot. Although neither one of us were looking for a serious relationship, one snuck up on us anyhow.

I am all in favor of people socializing as friends before persuing a deeper realtionship. Because we were friends before we were lovers, many obstacles (including my ADHD) were overcome that otherwise might have ruined everything. If you want a solid relationship - you must be friends before expecting more.

For what its worth,
David

Just wanted to add to this....
If you want a solid relationship - you must be friends before expecting more.


Yeah, this is true...the Treatment is not being a friend with a girl. It's been told "No relationship, let's just be friends." It can be done even after being a friend for a long time...my best friend just gave me the Treatment, for instance.

a point from the estrogen side of the fence ;)

i've told boys and men that i didn't want a serious relationship, but that we could be friends. and although they said o.k. to this proposal, they didn't mean it. they still wanted something more from me, something i was *very* clear about telling them wasn't available.

i felt betrayed when each one broke that bond of friendship because they didn't listen to me. instead, they wanted what they wanted. if they had been honest with themselves and me from the beginning they would have said, "a friendship isn't what i'm looking for. goodbye."

eventually i realized that a friendship with a man who wanted me to be a girlfriend wasn't fair to either of us.

i've been on the other side of this too. when my boyfriend and i broke up (his decision) but he wanted to remain friends. i tried, but, when he started dating again, it just hurt too much to remain friends. but, the girl he dated *after* me, well.... *we* are friends to this day! funny how life works.

that said, i was pretty darn fed up with men and had written the whole bunch off. for one summer my girlfriend (the one i mentioned up there ^ ) and i swore that this summer would be a man-free summer. the plan was to just relax, have fun, and not worry about looking for love.

you may have guessed that by the end of the summer we were both dating the men that we would later marry.

i later found out that my husband had a similar attitude the summer we met. he had decided that *this* was the summer when he'd just have fun and make friends. he did *not* want a girlfriend. heh. :)

this happens more often than can be believed. when you stop looking, that's when love finds you.

i don't know if this is even anything that you'll be able to relate to, but, it's what is true for me.

good luck,
wheezie

lots of fun stuff to get into here!
i met my husband and we both knew instantly that this was IT IT IT IT IT
and i'm still with him (sneaking up on 12 years!!..i'm not thirty yet yay)
anyway
i find that chaotic's expression of this whole deal to be pretty truthful, yet i can definitely see the boy's stories of the treatment for the 'nice guys'
but this actually happens on both sides of the street. i've spent many a night on the phone talking to one of my single girlfriends about how they ought to invest in their own lives and love will come.
but its a paradox isn't it?
you must invest something to get it...yet you feel that you mustn't want it for it to occur.
that's the thing about love.
but YES. when its the IT
both will be excited about it...its just a matter of WHEN
that happens.

I'm going to side with wheezie on this one. If friendship isn't what you want then don't say it is yet keep persuing the other. I'll admit that guys and girls alike think "let's just be friends" is a polite way of saying "no, you're not my type". So for the person to say "let's just be friends" but not mean it is just as bad as being on the receiving end and accepting it without meaning it. Did you guys follow that, because that was a challenge for me to keep straight.

Dating is phony. "The Bachelor" and "The Bachelorette" are phony. Creating a false reality in order to woo (there's a word that's gone out of style) a significant other is reserved for Hollywood. I've never heard of it happening in real life. The warm fuzzies from a perfect romantic evening do not make a relationship. It can certainly earn you brownie points for another get together, but somewhere along the line, sooner more than later, you have to be in touch with each other's reality. The relationship cannot stay superficial or shallow, the blinders and rose-colored glasses have to come off. What is the absolute worst thing about this person, and can I live with that? Do I want to stick by them in the best and worst of times? Only a best friend will do that. You can be only a best friend and not a lover, but you can't be only a lover and not a best friend and do that.

Honesty about our expectations with ourselves and the other is just about the most respectful thing you can do for all concerned.

I went out with a man. Just a couple of dates, nothing serious, and ultimately I decided he was not for me. I told him this when he called again. Guess what he said? "Well can we just be friends."

I told him no. He was outraged that I would not let him down this easy way. Sometimes people simply get what they seem to ask for. If a man doesn't have friendship feelings toward a woman, why pretend. Seems to me like more honesty is better for both men and women.

On the other hand, one of the best guy friends I ever had was a guy I ended a lover relationship with. He kept hanging on. I promised nothing. Eventually he found a very nice woman and married her. As far as I know, he still keeps in touch with every ex he ever had. Letting go is not his forte.

I finally dumped him as a friend because I could not stand to see the way he treated his wife. Since we were "friends" he felt free to confide all his marital transgression to me. Faithfulness was not his forte either.

if they had been honest with themselves and me from the beginning they would have said, "a friendship isn't what i'm looking for. goodbye."
Ya know, this is an excellent point. When a woman says "I don't want a romantic relationship with you. Would you settle for a friendship?" there would be an honest discussion and she would deserve honesty in return. From what I've seen, however, most women aren't willing or don't know how to be that honest. Most of the time, she doesn't want to hurt his feelings and says something like, 'not interested in a relationship right now.' Of course, that may be accurate for some of them, during my 'treatments' I usually hang around hoping that 'right now' will be over sometime after she learns how cool I am. (:D)

Usually, however, she hasn't been completely honest and ends up dating some other guy soon after. When I find out she's dating again it only hurts more. I'd rather hear "I don't have any interest in you." which might sting, than "I don't want a serious relationship, but we could be friends." not simply because I want more, but because, at some point, she likely will want a serious relationship and then mayhaps not with me.

Your point still stands, however. It is appropriate for the man to respond honestly in his capacity to be friends. It is also appropriate for the woman to set reasonable expectations for the guy, telling him what she honestly thinks and what may be a possibility in the future.

Though, who of us can honestly take that much honesty?...

Usually, however, she hasn't been completely honest and ends up dating some other guy soon after. When I find out she's dating again it only hurts more. I'd rather hear "I don't have any interest in you." which might sting, than "I don't want a serious relationship, but we could be friends." not simply because I want more, but because, at some point, she likely will want a serious relationship and then mayhaps not with me.

Your point still stands, however. It is appropriate for the man to respond honestly in his capacity to be friends. It is also appropriate for the woman to set reasonable expectations for the guy, telling him what she honestly thinks and what may be a possibility in the future.

Though, who of us can honestly take that much honesty?...
I think some of what we are seeing in this thread may reflect a difference in semantics.

What does a woman mean when she say she doesn't want a "serious relationship?" I could simply mean that she isn't willing to commit to sex yet in the current relationship. Let's face it, men will push and women will delay.

Even the word 'friends' has plenty of ambiguity. There are friends who regularly avail themselves of each others bodies for fun and convenience and have no interest in long term committment. There are friends who stand by each other through thick and thin but have no interest in each other as sex partners. There are 'friends' who are really more acquaintances. There are far more nuanced meanings of the word 'friends' than there are of the word 'lovers.' To avoid the ambiguity, people need only define their terms.

So why don't they? :)

Probably because once they make themselves clear what is open ended becomes finite.

I know that I have dated men I was not initially that physically attracted to. I had hopes that I could overcome my shallower nature and appreciate these men for the fine guys they really were. In all my life (I ain't young.) this only happened once. Usually, I kept trying and trying to see these guys romantically. Now, older and wiser, I have decided that, for me anyway, if the initial spark isn't there that probably means it never will be.

There is a fascinating book that talks about the different ways people love, classifying their natures as manic (oh yes!), eros, ludic, storagic, pragmatic, and agape. If people are a poor match in these areas then nothing good happens.

Take the manic: Ohmigod! I have never met anyone like you. I cannot bear not to be together every single minute. Allow me to sacrifice myself on the altar of your love.

Take the ludic: Love should be fun. It's playing. And sex is the major reason for this playing, the flirting, this toying with love. But no way do I want to feel strangled or settle down.

Now suppose the manic lover meets the ludic lover. Can we predict anything good from this romantic pairing? I think not.

this happens more often than can be believed. when you stop looking, that's when love finds you.


exactly.

my friendship with a certain girl was just hanging out all the time. eventually, we both realized we had similar interests, ideas, etc. after a while, it was like 'we should be together'. and taking things super slow as she is in the process of getting out of her current relationship, getting/finding work, and getting her own place.

patience/waiting is difficult, but often times worth the wait.

I enjoyed reading you're points Coral, and Eyeforgot..insightful stuff!

Thanks Cameron. :)

To add more testosterone into the mix, I'd like to say my part on it, and why it's generally not so much a good thing for us either way...

First, as I said, the Treatment can be delivered a couple ways. The worst way is "I'm not ready for a relationship right now, but we can be friends." The reason it's evil is pretty obvious...it says "right now." What this does, effectively, is tell the guy "at this moment I'm not ready, but I might be in the future." Now what is the guy supposed to do? He's in love with this person, supposedly, so he's almost got to continue to hope and pursue...however, he probably doesn't have a chance. It's now the worst for the man when the woman soon moves on to another person...that's one of the greatest hurts possible.

Now, as far as other "let's just be friends" parts...there's a reason the guy might not change or back off...not all men are trying to get sex. Not all relationships need to be sexual. So the guy might not be just trying to get some sex when he moves for a relationship. Some of us may actually be in love. I was very much in love with the person who so recently gave me the Treatment...and now, I'm still not sure what to do. She's my best friend, so I can't really stop being her friend, but it's hard not to have feelings for her, especially so soon after I was in love with her.

It's very frustrating, and an almost impossible situation. I don't know how to behave, because up until now, she's been my best friend who I love and intend to have more with, and now she's just sort of my best friend...there's a major change, and it's hard to adjust...this is especially concerning the fact that she's gone back to her ex-boyfriend, so I feel awkward engaging in any behavior that may or may not be flirty...

So before women go saying that men just don't know how to be friends, I feel it's important to point out that maybe it's just hard for us to adjust to a change, when we may very well have deep emotional feelings for the girl in question...

Also, "I don't want a relationship right now" is the worst cover ever, because it gives false hope. False hope is terrible, because when it turns out that it wasn't "I don't want a relationship right now," but actually "I don't want a relationship with you"

For instance as how much it hurts, my friend just asked me to help her with all kinds of things, and I did, and she was very happy...and I love her when she's happy...the way she acts and her non-verbal language and the way she talks and looks and everything when she's happy is what first made me like her...and so here I am, knowing that no matter how happy, no longer how long, no matter what I do, I will never have that...

...and that hurts. It hurts to just be friends when you're in love with someone, and it hurts even more when you know that somebody else out there has everything you want, and you are forever "just a friend."

Hi KMiller,

What I am hearing is that you are really hurting. I looked at your profile and I not only saw a photo of an attractive young man (if you don't mind a compliment from someone your Mom's age :) ) but who also has varied interests and whose posts here indicate that he is also sensitive and intelligent. I also saw that you are 18. I am surmising that the young woman who hurt you, who has gone back to her old boyfriend is probably around the same age. If your friendship with her predates the breakup with the boyfriend, then what you are probably dealing with is rebound behavior on her part.

In other words, did she look to you for support and comfort after the breakup? If she did and then actively made her relationship to a romantic thing, then you are dealing with thoroughly human behavior that involves bad judgement. As a friend, she should have spared you the hurt that her indecision has caused.

If it continues to hurt you to be around her then perhaps you should get some distance. You could tell her you want a little time off from the friendship itself, emphasizing that this is to help you gain perspective and that this does not mean that you never want to be friends again.

What you really want to avoid is a situation that is on again/off again. It is simply best not to get romantically involved with people that are already involved. Look for opportunities to keep yourself busy and meet other people. This will help you to heal.

Why is the fact that of this young woman's age relevant? Because at this age, especially if they are away from home for the first time, both men and women begin to test the power of their attractiveness. They are trying to figure out where they fit in terms of the qualities (intelligence, wit, beauty) that they can bring to a relationship. Sometimes this need to test one's power gets put ahead of things like patience, kindness, and fair play. Some people improve and begin to treat the opposite sex fairly and some people just keep testing. We call these latter people things like players, Don Juans, or femme fatales. I am not saying your friend is one of these but it pays to be aware and to protect your own heart.

All the best to you,
Coral

My friendship with her does not predate the breakup. I met her because she moved into my dorm immediately following the breakup. Furthermore, I wish she would have rebounded. I was not the fallback guy, unfortunately. I wanted to be. I tried to be, but she wouldn't even start a relationship with me. I tried to have a relationship, and instead was made a platonic friend.

Now, as far as ages and such go, yes, I know I'm young, inexperienced, and blah blah blah I don't know what the future holds. I hate that. I hate waiting for the future. The fact of the matter is, no matter what the future holds, I am not the future. I am the present. So if I am not happy, then it doesn't matter what the future holds, because I'm present Keith, not future Keith.

As far as getting distance...yeah, distance might be a good thing, but it's a little hard, since I have a class with her and live less than 30 feet from her.

I'm sorry Keith. It was not intention to offend you. I guess I misunderstood you. I thought you meant that she led you on.

Don't worry Coral, it's alright, I'm not offended.

...and I did, and she was very happy...and I love her when she's happy...the way she acts and her non-verbal language and the way she talks and looks and everything when she's happy is what first made me like her...and so here I am, knowing that no matter how happy, no longer how long, no matter what I do, I will never have that...

...and that hurts. It hurts to just be friends when you're in love with someone, and it hurts even more when you know that somebody else out there has everything you want, and you are forever "just a friend."
Boy have I been there... And it's exactly my basis for the distance in male-female relationships I spoke of. Dang, man, wish I had something to offer other than it sucks... And it hurts. And even years after, when I have no contact with my 'ex-best-friend' I still get pangs.

I'm not sure what the 'right' answer is from there. Or even the 'best' but, as I've been processing this one, myself, I think I'm forming some new ideas on relationships, etc. I'm thinking now that, in order to be honest with her and myself, I should have approached her knowing I was worthwhile and a good choice and laid it out. I should have expressed my feelings (Which she knew) and told her that, tho I love her friendship, I can't keep hurting every time she chooses to be with someone else and I need to either fill that role in her life or move on. Clean, friendly, painful perhaps, but honest. Sitting there for years (like 6+) only damaged me more and walking away without talking about it didn't give me closure and I'm sure was incredibly painful for her. (I never thought about that before....:( )

So, tho I don't know what your situation is exactly, I've at least felt some of the same pain and have come far enough to suggest a few things. An open discussion with her with reasonable boundaries (no more movies, lunches, etc.) or termination of the friendship if she cannot consider and enter into a mutually-fullfilling relationship. Sure, you get warm-fuzzies when she's happy. You want that for her forever. (That's love. Platonic or romantic) But her happiness at the cost of your continual demise is self-destructive.

If she can't be with you cause you're cool enough to be her best-friend, maybe she's broken. The hard part there is we can't ever fix anyone but ourselves. No matter how much we love them...

Just my perspective... Hope something helps...

The fact of the matter is, no matter what the future holds, I am not the future. I am the present. So if I am not happy, then it doesn't matter what the future holds, because I'm present Keith, not future Keith.

from my perspective, keith. that statement is the *only* truth that there is. i'd only add for myself that i am not the past wheezie either.

why is this significant? well, it may not be for you. but, if it is. then, that realization that the only thing you can be happy with is what *is*, right now. that's it. there is nothing else. no guarantee. none. and, even *if* she loved you back, there still is no guarantee that it's forever. and, if you're not happy right now, then that's what you're giving up on. the chance to be happy, *right now.*

does this make any sense??? it's not a philosphy i can apply to myself right now. too much baggage. but, being right with the moment and letting the rest come is what i think of as "happiness."

for what it's worth,

w.

another thought .... are you feeling like you'll never be happy because you aren't happy now? or are feeling like you don't care about "someday" because you *want* to be happy now?