View Full Version : Separation distress is only the gateway to depression


mildadhd
02-06-13, 11:47 PM
Affective neuroscience of the emotional BrainMind: evolutionary perspectives and implications for understanding depression


Separation distress is only the gateway to depression

The acute GRIEF response may need to be supplemented by other neuroaffective changes before individuals cascade into sustained depressive lassitude and despair. Cytokines that promote sickness feelings (eg, Interleukin 1) and endogenous inflammatory cascades have been proposed as possible causal vectors; both may operate, in part, by diminishing SEEKING arousals.46 A sustained depressive phenotype may arise when diminished SEEKING urges allow the behavioral manifestations of GRIEF (the “protest” phase of separation distress) to diminish. This need not mean that the intrapsychic pain of GRIEF also disappears. Indeed, if the psychic pain is sustained, the dysphoria of diminished SEEKING could further elevate negative affect. Thus, depressive affect may start with psychological pain (GRIEF, with concurrent SEEKING arousal) followed by “giving up” (consisting of sustained psychic pain, accompanied by the lethargic anhedonia of diminished SEEKING).

Diminished brain reward in preclinical models of depressive states is well established,47 but it is not yet clear how this happens. A promising candidate is elevated dynorphin activity along SEEKING circuitry. Indeed, dynorphin mediates the negative affect arising from loss in competitive social encounters.48 Again, this suggest that severe depression may be optimally counteracted by medicines that reduce both social-loss induced psychic pain and depleted SEEKING resources; low-dose buprenorphine can counteract both through its mu-opioid agonist and kappa-receptor antagonism effects. Addictive tendencies are markedly reduced since higher doses block mu receptors which blunt opioid tolerance and escalating addictive dosing.

Thus, although negative affective changes in the opioidand oxytocin-driven attachment and affectional systems may be the pivotal precipitants of psychological pain that is the entry point for a depressive cascade, it may be diminished SEEKING that pushes the system into a sustained clinically significant dysphoria. This scenario does not exclude the potential contribution of other biogenic amine imbalances in depression - changes in overall brain arousal can reinforce the above affective changes. Because of the affective complexity and diversity of depression, many variants on these basic themes can be envisioned, yielding many subtypes of depression. It would be premature to try to relate the emotional primes to the various subtypes - anxious, agitated, etc - but to simply indicate that FEAR overactivity may contribute to anxious forms, while the GRIEF separation-distress system might contribute more to melancholic forms, while selectively diminished SEEKING may contribute to those forms where agitation is not prevalent.

The critical point is that detailed clarification of dedicated emotional-affective circuits in mammalian brain should allow us eventually to invest in more direct affective strategies to understand and treat depression as well as other psychiatric disorders accompanied by imbalanced affective states.10 This may be a substantial advance over generalized stress models, for it is easier to envision how to focus on changes in specific brain emotional circuits rather than more global stress-induced brain changes. Affective circuit perspectives also coax us to consider the potential benefits of strengthening various positive emotional systems to promote affective homeostasis. For instance, therapeutic approaches that promote the positive hedonics of social CARE and PLAY systems may increase treatment options that could yield better outcomes than existing therapies.

To develop this last theme a little further, when we develop antidepressants that can rapidly and specifically promote desired affective rebalancing, we might consider developing complementary psychotherapeutic approaches where clinicians explicitly seek to utilize the power of positive affective systems of clients' brains. For instance, the “power of PLAY” in adult psychotherapy remains largely unused, although preclinical benefits for childhood problems such as excessive impulsivity have been documented.49 Considering that PLAY can promote the expression of various neurotrophins like brain-derived neurotrophic factor,50 and insulin-like growth factor 1,32 it is to be expected that playful interactions, just like exercise, may have antidepressant effects, and the resulting neuroplasticities may reinforce better and longer-lasting psychotherapeutic benefits. Affective neuroscientific thinking suggests many other new avenues for medicinal developments since all primary-process emotional systems seem to have unique neuropeptidergic controls.51


(See full link below)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3181986/

amberwillow
02-06-13, 11:59 PM
I enjoyed reading that. Thank you for posting.

The description of reduced Seeking behaviour reminds me very much of my husband's depression. I would love to see play therapy methods trialed. I've found games to be very important teaching tools in my various occupations.

Drewbacca
02-07-13, 02:22 AM
One thing that has always driven me crazy about biology papers is that they read like a secondary language...

It's a bit easier to follow if you read the abstract first.
Cross-species affective neuroscience studies confirm that primary-process emotional feelings are organized within primitive subcortical regions of the brain that are anatomically, neurochemically, and functionally homologous in all mammals that have been studied.

Emotional feelings (affects) are intrinsic values that inform animals how they are faring in the quest to survive. The various positive affects indicate that animals are returning to “comfort zones” that support survival, and negative affects reflect “discomfort zones” that indicate that animals are in situations that may impair survival.

They are ancestral tools for living - evolutionary memories of such importance that they were coded into the genome in rough form (as primary brain processes), which are refined by basic learning mechanisms (secondary processes) as well as by higher-order cognitions/thoughts (tertiary processes).

To understand why depression feels horrible, we must fathom the affective infrastructure of the mammalian brain. Advances in our understanding of the nature of primary-process emotional affects can promote the development of better preclinical models of psychiatric disorders and thereby also allow clinicians new and useful ways to understand the foundational aspects of their clients' problems. These networks are of clear importance for understanding psychiatric disorders and advancing psychiatric practice.

Drewbacca
02-07-13, 02:25 AM
FWIW, I think it is very important to look at these evolutionary factors... especially in relation to depression and anxiety. Thanks for sharing!

mildadhd
02-07-13, 02:37 AM
FWIW, I think it is very important to look at these evolutionary factors... especially in relation to depression and anxiety. Thanks for sharing!

I wonder what ADD would be like without anxiety or depression or addiction?

Would ADD even exist?

dvdnvwls
02-07-13, 03:22 AM
I wonder what ADD would be like without anxiety or depression?

Would ADD even exist?
I'm not exactly sure what you mean. I'm seeing this on the level where it's a silly question; of course when I'm neither anxious nor depressed I still have ADD. I know exactly what ADD is like without those things. But clearly you must mean something else.

mildadhd
02-07-13, 03:28 AM
I'm not exactly sure what you mean. I'm seeing this on the level where it's a silly question; of course when I'm neither anxious nor depressed I still have ADD. I know exactly what ADD is like without those things. But clearly you must mean something else.


I am very serious.( but to each their own)

I am also curious...


1)What is your ADD like without anxiety, depression or addiction?

2)How did you develop your ADD?





.

Drewbacca
02-07-13, 04:41 AM
I wonder what ADD would be like without anxiety or depression or addiction?

Would ADD even exist?

I get what you are saying... and I think that it would still exist. I do believe that it is an independent disorder/thinking-style/whatever-you-want-to-call-it.

I don't really have a position on what it is, I just know that it IS.

I can only speak for my own perception. With me, the depression and anxiety contribute at least as much as my ADHD to the challenges faced in life. But, I can't say with any certainty that the depression and anxiety aren't a result of ADHD.

Are they independent? Does one cause the other? I have no clue. But, I do think it varies from one person to another. My suspicion has always been that there are several different disorders masquerading as ADHD.

I'm not going to jump to a conclusion that ADHD is developed from the other two, but I can certainly see the benefit of eliminating anxiety and depression (if possible) in order to see what we are left with (if anything). But still, I expect it to vary case by case.

dvdnvwls
02-07-13, 04:53 AM
I am very serious.( but to each their own)
I was aware that you were serious and would like to know how I was misunderstanding the question.

dvdnvwls
02-07-13, 04:54 AM
2)How did you develop your ADD?
How did you develop your chin?

mildadhd
02-07-13, 05:01 AM
I get what you are saying... and I think that it would still exist. I do believe that it is an independent disorder/thinking-style/whatever-you-want-to-call-it.

I don't really have a position on what it is, I just know that it IS.

I can only speak for my own perception. With me, the depression and anxiety contribute at least as much as my ADHD to the challenges faced in life. But, I can't say with any certainty that the depression and anxiety aren't a result of ADHD.

Are they independent? Does one cause the other? I have no clue. But, I do think it varies from one person to another. My suspicion has always been that there are several different disorders masquerading as ADHD.

I'm not going to jump to a conclusion that ADHD is developed from the other two, but I can certainly see the benefit of eliminating anxiety and depression (if possible) in order to see what we are left with (if anything). But still, I expect it to vary case by case.




I think it depends on whether we are talking about...

1)Anxiety and Depression (and Addiction) interfering with early development resulting in ADD for the first time?

or

2)Anxiety and Depression (and Addiction) as the results of living with ADD?


I think Anxiety and Depression (and Addiction) have roles in both #1 and #2

In my experience anyway.


There may be other factors that I am not including,

that might involve mine and other people's experience.



Like the type of support the individual may or may not have in early life,

individual sensitivity, epigenetic factors, stress etc.

but even these topics seem like they could be related to anxiety and depression (and addiction)


.


.

mildadhd
02-07-13, 05:27 AM
How did you develop your chin?


Does everyone with a chin also have ADD?




.

Jeweller
02-07-13, 02:35 PM
I think it depends on whether we are talking about...

1)Anxiety and Depression (and Addiction) interfering with early development resulting in ADD for the first time?

or

2)Anxiety and Depression (and Addiction) as the results of living with ADD?


I think Anxiety and Depression (and Addiction) have roles in both #1 and #2

In my experience anyway.


There may be other factors that I am not including,

that might involve mine and other people's experience.



Like the type of support the individual may or may not have in early life,

individual sensitivity, epigenetic factors, stress etc.

but even these topics seem like they could be related to anxiety and depression (and addiction)


.


.


I see your point.

This is the reason I have been somewhat skeptical about ADD as a lifelong 'neurological disability'.

But from what I understand, it is just like every other psychological 'disorder'.

Social Anxiety for example, can be reduced to anxiety and learned behavior, maybe even depression. But it is still a neurological imbalance.

OCD / Perfectionism is similar to ADD in some ways, it is also linked to anxiety and maybe depression. But is is still a neurological imbalance.

If you are genetically predisposed to have any of these conditions, then you can say that you are born with it since they cannot be 'cured' but can be treated. (not sure about ocd)

I'm not sure what started first: ADD, social anxiety or OCD. Or if one offset the others or if they all developed from a neurological imbalance.

I think I was born this way because it feels like an innate part of me. But you can never be sure. I like to look at ADHD critically, but sometimes I feel that is is hard to keep questioning something that you want to move past. I would like it if more scientific research was made possible so that at least I could have closure, know for a fact what I have, what caused it and what I can do about it rather than all these open ended questions.

But I enjoy these questions despite this :) And having these debates in my mind is something I find myself doing naturally.

Sorry if this was irrelevant. I think it is interesting that you are thinking critically about certain things.

Spacemaster
02-07-13, 03:53 PM
I'm going to come back to this thread, once I've read the whole article. I have bookmarked it actually, because it is really interesting, thanks!

I don't know if my ADHD and depression/social anxiety/addictive tendencies are linked genetically, or what the scientific explanation really is, but I do know that my ADHD exacerbates those problems greatly! I'll get back to this thread, I like it

dvdnvwls
02-07-13, 04:16 PM
Does everyone with a chin also have ADD?
No - not necessarily even everyone with ADD has a chin - but as far as anyone can tell, the development process of chins and ADD is the same one, namely pre-natal development. There is speculation that ADD may have some of its development after the person is born, but since at this point it's pure speculation and I'm not a clinical researcher, I'm not yet all that interested in it. Certainly not interested in taking the speculation as true and trying to build a system of knowledge on top of such a shaky assumption.

SquarePeg
02-07-13, 05:36 PM
I wonder what ADD would be like without anxiety or depression or addiction?

Would ADD even exist?
I think so, my son for instance doesn´t have anxiety or depression but he does have adhd, he is 14.

My daughter was developing anxiety and depression between the ages of about 13 to 16 because of undiagnosed ADHD, since her diagnosis and therapy and now meds, this has lessened considerably although she seems to have irrational anxiety persisting.

mildadhd
02-07-13, 05:49 PM
No - not necessarily even everyone with ADD has a chin - but as far as anyone can tell, the development process of chins and ADD is the same one, namely pre-natal development. There is speculation that ADD may have some of its development after the person is born, but since at this point it's pure speculation and I'm not a clinical researcher, I'm not yet all that interested in it. Certainly not interested in taking the speculation as true and trying to build a system of knowledge on top of such a shaky assumption.


I am willing to learn with you,

if you want to pick a point in the discussion,

that you would like to learn more about?

I am far from knowing the information inside and out.

although that is my intention.(someday)



.




.

mildadhd
02-07-13, 05:59 PM
I'm going to come back to this thread, once I've read the whole article. I have bookmarked it actually, because it is really interesting, thanks!

I don't know if my ADHD and depression/social anxiety/addictive tendencies are linked genetically, or what the scientific explanation really is, but I do know that my ADHD exacerbates those problems greatly! I'll get back to this thread, I like it


Spacemaster,

I am just learning the material as well.

But it "flows" well with my personal experiences.

Take your time,

I am really happy that your interested.

Their are a few topics that I am trying to figure out that I would like to discuss in the future with anyone interested.

Trying to figure out where to start,

looking forward to future discussion.

looking forward to learning from your insight.



.

mildadhd
02-07-13, 06:36 PM
I think so, my son for instance doesn´t have anxiety or depression but he does have adhd, he is 14.

My daughter was developing anxiety and depression between the ages of about 13 to 16 because of undiagnosed ADHD, since her diagnosis and therapy and now meds, this has lessened considerably although she seems to have irrational anxiety persisting.


My experience is close to your daughters,

including the irrational anxiety persisting.

(Side Note: For me changing to a Slow Release improved irritablility,
I am not a doctor talk to your doctor)

Except I was diagnosed about age 35.




Some questions I am working on is...

If a person is born with a sensitive nature.(temperament)...


1)How much "anxiety" and/or "depression" and/or "addiciton" is the infant experiencing already at birth, because of a extra sensitive nature(temperament)?



2)How much would be being born with an extra sensitive nature (temperament),

anxiety and/or depression and/or addiciton,

"shape"/"interfere"/"affect" with the early brain development of the prefrontal cortex,

after birth that is not yet complete.(til about at least the age of 3-10.)(general idea)(brain keeps developing/changing through out life but is much less effected by experience from a developmental view , than in early life)



3) what difference would there be if this gateway anxiety and/or depression and/or addicition was accommodated during different stages of early development,

by the primary caregivers,

verse not accommodated by anyone?





gateway distress anxiety and/or depression and/or addiciton, (during critical time of development, when brain organs develop for the first time)?

verses

after gateway influence (implicit function has already mostly developed) anxiety and/or depression and/or addiciton (after the critical time of development has past)?


There is so much more to this topic,

first time I have ever tried to spicifically express these topics here at ADDF in this manner.

but I will start there.

Let me know if I don't make sense.

.

daveddd
02-07-13, 06:51 PM
this all hasnt processed for me yet

the inborn temperament you mention has been an interest of mine though

mildadhd
02-07-13, 07:21 PM
this all hasnt processed for me yet

the inborn temperament you mention has been an interest of mine though


Hi Daveddd,

I am gald you are considering the topics.


One major factor I am working on is,

(I will try and express in general, might need more explanation.)


When the brain develops for the first time.

Gateway Period

It might be helpful to look at the topics from a "ground up approach" (lower, middle, higher)

Before the brain is developed from at least birth to about the age of 3.(in regards to implicit function)

the brain grows from the "ground up", when developing for the first time


After Gateway Period

it might be helpful to look at the topics from both "top down approach" (Higher, Middle, Lower brain),

after the age of 10 the brain systems have mostly developed for the first time, ( I'm over simplifying for explanation)

as well as the ground up approach (Lower, Middle , Higher brain), in regards to therapy.






There are many different stages in human life,

the earlier the age,

the more sensitive human infants are to environmental experiences.

The brain grows about 90% of the adult size before the age of three.

Then slows dramatically as we age, (compared to earlier years)(but never stops)


Consider eyesight,

if a child doesn't see light by the age of 5 (or so)

the neurological parts will never develop,

there are critical times of development.


The areas of the cortex,

also have a critical time of development,

except as well as light...(heat)

there is "outside" senses like touch, eye contact, smell, emotion etc.

That shape self regulation.(missing any of these senses could result in impilict anxiety(unconscious daily function involving subconscious reaction though out life),

depending on some factors like nature/temperament at birth.


If a human infant is not touched/picked up after birth,

the baby will stress himself to death.(death by anxiety)


Mammals are totally dependent on there parents in early life.

Our brains complete development in a use dependent fashion.


And in early life we actually have twice as many receptors as needed.

We shape our brain in interaction with the environment (neural pruning)

Keeping the synapses we use,

and trimming the synpses we don't use.


I want to clairify that I am not a professional,

(I could be making mistakes, this is not my theory by my interpretation of other peoples theory)

but enjoy learning about the topics,

any crictism/insight/revue related to understanding the material better is appreciated.




.

daveddd
02-07-13, 07:26 PM
one interesting thing about that

i remember reading in more than one place, that a specific neurological syndrome

that was highly correlated with adhd

had an underlying problem with synaptic pruning

mildadhd
02-07-13, 07:52 PM
one interesting thing about that

i remember reading in more than one place, that a specific neurological syndrome

that was highly correlated with adhd

had an underlying problem with synaptic pruning



I am interested in learning more,

was it metabolic syndrome?

I am not sure,

but have read a little about metabolic syndrome.

I have wondered if ADD and metabolic syndrome are the same thing?

They seem very similar and are both as impairing.

Not sure though.

Some people compare metabolic syndrome to type 3 diabetes.

It wouldn't hurt to treat myself for both.




.

mildadhd
02-07-13, 07:58 PM
I think so, my son for instance doesn´t have anxiety or depression but he does have adhd, he is 14.

My daughter was developing anxiety and depression between the ages of about 13 to 16 because of undiagnosed ADHD, since her diagnosis and therapy and now meds, this has lessened considerably although she seems to have irrational anxiety persisting.


Question,

Son diagnosed earlier(accommodated earlier in life)

Daughter not diagnosed until later (accommodated later in life)

Do you think this might partly explain why your son has less anxiety than your daughter?

I understand if you don't reply about personal family topics.



.

daveddd
02-07-13, 08:04 PM
i didnt want to put it off topic, because i was only somewhat sure it was on topic

http://books.google.com/books?id=qf6c6EbI3n4C&pg=PA157&dq=synaptic+pruning+fragile+x&hl=en&sa=X&ei=bD8UUa2HHMS7ygGUmoHwAg&ved=0CEsQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=synaptic%20pruning%20fragile%20x&f=false

and if you read 'the involvement of the premutation carriers '

http://books.google.com/books?id=4BFhpwuaBYMC&pg=PA197&dq=fragile+x+premutation+adhd&hl=en&sa=X&ei=qj8UUfTGJaSwyQHw7ICoAw&ved=0CFEQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=fragile%20x%20premutation%20adhd&f=false

it better explains that recent studys indicated that people with the premutation often present with adhd with social issues and anxietys, while not being intellectually disabled or presenting with any physical mutations


interestingly infants with the premutation often are extra sensitive to the environment

mildadhd
02-07-13, 08:29 PM
i didnt want to put it off topic, because i was only somewhat sure it was on topic

http://books.google.com/books?id=qf6c6EbI3n4C&pg=PA157&dq=synaptic+pruning+fragile+x&hl=en&sa=X&ei=bD8UUa2HHMS7ygGUmoHwAg&ved=0CEsQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=synaptic%20pruning%20fragile%20x&f=false

and if you read 'the involvement of the premutation carriers '

http://books.google.com/books?id=4BFhpwuaBYMC&pg=PA197&dq=fragile+x+premutation+adhd&hl=en&sa=X&ei=qj8UUfTGJaSwyQHw7ICoAw&ved=0CFEQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=fragile%20x%20premutation%20adhd&f=false

it better explains that recent studys indicated that people with the premutation often present with adhd with social issues and anxietys, while not being intellectually disabled or presenting with any physical mutations


interestingly infants with the premutation often are extra sensitive to the environment


I am not sure if it is the exact same thing or not.

I am interested in studying the topics more and learning more.


I don't think you are off topic,

I think you are on topic.

but you have added a bunch of more subjects to thread,

that should be considered,

that I didn't try to explain,

only for simplicity sake.

That being said,

there is a bunch of health issues that could be related to inborn temperament,

that effect people with ADD,(due to sensitivity)(the sensitivity is cause in regards to ADD)(and not the other way around, without ADD)


In the past it was to hard to discuss internal chemistry related to ADD,

but now that people are acknowledging that blood glucose levels do effect the function of the Prefrontal cortex function,

it is much easier to explain/understand.


There is lots of other internal body chemistry (substances) as well as insulin, and blood sugar, cortisol, etc...


(SB_UK has a strong understanding of human physiology, hormones/neurotransmitters)

that are also related and affect the same brain systems related to ADD.


The prefrontal cortex is connected to many "jobs",

including the Autonomic Nervous System (example excitory and inhibition function)(fight, freeze or flight stress response systems) etc.

that seem to be related to abnormal function of the prefrontal cortex and the ANS.


(Barliman has a strong understanding of ANS function as well as many other alternative body functions and mediation treatment),


It would be good to see all the different functions of the ANS on paper

it seems that people vary in impairments,

it would be interesting to understand why we have subtle differences.

They all seem to be realted to the Prefrontal cortex in some way,

all though I am not sure if this is a meeting point,

or if there is another brain organ or brain organ systems involved in the underdeveloped of prefrontal cortex,

or if the problem is in the prefrontal cortex?

I am guessing it is more an over reaction due to environmental experience + temperament at birth involving the whole brain, (during early development)

But being honest I don't know.

I am babbling better stop here.

Let me know if you disagree,

I don't mind being wrong,

just want to know.

Thanks for the fragile x information,

I will need to learn more.


,

daveddd
02-07-13, 08:39 PM
I am not sure if it is the exact same thing or not.

I am interested in studying the topics more and learning more.


I don't think you are of topic,

but you have added a bunch of more subjects to thread,

that should be considered,

that I didn't try to explain,

only for simplicity sake.

That being said,

there is a bunch of health issues that could be related to inborn temperament,

that effect people with ADD,(due to sensitivity)(the sensitivity is cause in regards to ADD)(and not the other way around, without ADD)


In the past it was to hard to discuss internal chemistry related to ADD,

but now that people are acknowledging that blood glucose levels do effect the function of the Prefrontal cortex function,

it is much easier to explain/understand.


There is lots of other internal body chemistry (substances) as well as insulin, and blood sugar, cortisol, etc...

(SB_UK has a strong understanding of human physiology, hormones/neurotransmitters)

that are also related and affect the same brain systems related to ADD.

The prefrontal cortex is connected to many "jobs",

including the Autonomic Nervous System (example excitory and inhibition function)

that seem to be related to abnormal function of the prefrontal cortex and the ANS.


(Barliman has a strong understanding of ANS function as well as many other alternative body functions and mediation treatment),


It would be good to see all the different functions of the ANS on paper

it seems that people vary in impairment,

it would be interesting to understand why we have subtle differences.

They all seem to be realted to the Prefrontal cortex in some way,

all though I am not sure if this is a meeting point,

or if there is another brain organ or brain organ systems involved in the underdeveloped of prefrontal cortex,

or if the problem is in the prefrontal cortex?

I am guessing it is more an over reaction due to environmental experience + temperament at birth.

But being honest I don't know.

I am babbling better stop here.

Let me know if you disagree,

I don't mind being wrong,

just want to know.

i find it strange we can vary in impairment

but have the same type of language disorders , that almost seem to match cognitive styles

daveddd
02-07-13, 08:44 PM
i dont disagree

mildadhd
02-07-13, 09:00 PM
I see your point.

This is the reason I have been somewhat skeptical about ADD as a lifelong 'neurological disability'.

But from what I understand, it is just like every other psychological 'disorder'.

Social Anxiety for example, can be reduced to anxiety and learned behavior, maybe even depression. But it is still a neurological imbalance.

OCD / Perfectionism is similar to ADD in some ways, it is also linked to anxiety and maybe depression. But is is still a neurological imbalance.

If you are genetically predisposed to have any of these conditions, then you can say that you are born with it since they cannot be 'cured' but can be treated. (not sure about ocd)

I'm not sure what started first: ADD, social anxiety or OCD. Or if one offset the others or if they all developed from a neurological imbalance.

I think I was born this way because it feels like an innate part of me. But you can never be sure. I like to look at ADHD critically, but sometimes I feel that is is hard to keep questioning something that you want to move past. I would like it if more scientific research was made possible so that at least I could have closure, know for a fact what I have, what caused it and what I can do about it rather than all these open ended questions.

But I enjoy these questions despite this :) And having these debates in my mind is something I find myself doing naturally.

Sorry if this was irrelevant. I think it is interesting that you are thinking critically about certain things.


Jeweller,


I think it is totally relevant,

in my opinion it can be more sensitive (predispostion) for some,

and more environmental for others.

although they both involve genes and environment to varying degrees.


What I am focusing on in this tread is the difference between,

developing brain organs for the first time,

and brain organs that are already developed.


Even if a person has a sensitive temperament,

their may be the option in early life to lessen and accommodate the severity,

genotype consist of gene alleles "options",

which gene alleles are expressed

also depends on the interaction with the environment.

Changing or accommodating the environment may help avoid expression gene alleles related to stress response.

( I will try and find a research example for easier understanding)

These might be normal stress responses that might become permenant in more sensitive individual.(especially if not accommodated and primary care givers are unaware of the effects of sensitivity of early brain development.

Similar to the OP title about depression,

the sensitive temperament is only the gateway to ADD,

early accommodations may lessen the severity or even maybe prevent the expression of gene alleles related to ADD.


I think it is worth at least exploring,

Thanks for your interest.

Your insight is always appreciated.



.

mildadhd
02-07-13, 09:22 PM
i find it strange we can vary in impairment

but have the same type of language disorders , that almost seem to match cognitive styles

I have no doubt ADD is very real,(what ever it is called)

and also very complex.

People react differently to environmental expereinces as well.

Some people internalize hyperactivity,

other people externalize hyperactivity .

Is is just one example of many factors,

that might result in slight differences.

Over time.

I don't think even the cause of the sensitivity temperament is the same for all people with ADD.

There are similar genes related to ADD that we may have in common but we all don't have all the exact same ADD genes in common,

if there was we could do a test for these genes and call it ADD.

Some of us might have all three symptoms at diagnoses,

hyperactivity, impulsive and inattention

but some only have 2 out of the 3 symptoms.

And like the example above about hyperactivity,

there is more than one hyperactivity can present itself.

It depends on the reaction (which I think is also related to the individuals environment)

In my opinion,

there is no doubt of environmental influence on gene expression.( sensitivity (temperament)predispositon or not)

Side note Genes are involved both ways,( predisposition or not) while interacting with the environment.


But there are also other epigentic factors that may contribute to individual expression,

like chemical exposure, (which can even skip generations, without being expressed)

There is many variables.

That could account for slight differences.

Some we may be able to control, others we may not.


The point is that there may be some things we can do,

although being honest,

I think the greatest things we can do are in early life,

but that doesn't mean ADD adults can't improve,

just not at near the rate that a child might be able.


.


.

mildadhd
02-08-13, 03:18 PM
i find it strange we can vary in impairment

but have the same type of language disorders , that almost seem to match cognitive styles


Daveddd,

I want to thank you for posting the information about Fragile X Syndrome.

Even if they are not the same,

it does seem important to compare the two ADD and FXS.

Might help provide some insight about both ADD and FXS.

It would be interesting to create a thread for comparison.

But I am not confident in my understanding of FXS at this time.

Interesting stuff.

I also wonder how easy it is to misdiagnose one for the other?

I wonder if telling them apart is easy as a fasting glucose test?

My Dad had type one diabetes and he had similar signs to ADD,

but the signs of ADD went away if he had good management of blood sugar levels and insulin.

I am also curious to know if I eat like a type one diabetic and test/regulate my blood sugar levels,

would help improve ADD symptoms,

because high and low blood sugar does effect our ADD as well.

But not to the extremes of diabetes if I understand correctly.


I do plan to ask my doctor.








Peripheral

daveddd
02-08-13, 08:03 PM
not to sure about diabetes

my mom is type 2 i believe (managed by diet), and has always been a very healthy eater

but always stressed

FXS is one of several genetic neurological disorders that have attention deficits, impulsivity, and hyperness

it just happens to be the most researched, so its the easiest to find info and books on

basically the pre-mutation carriers do not present with mental retardation or physical mutations(although relatives may), so its not very often that a psychiatrist will even mention it

it has consistent psychiatric phenotype

basically ADHD(normally 'severe' cases), social anxiety, expressive language disorders, mixed and matched mood disorders and some autistic behaviors

http://books.google.com/books?id=U4gbXgolqB8C&printsec=frontcover&dq=fragile+x+syndrome&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cpEVUfGUL4GCrAGtqYHIAQ&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAQ

here is a newer book on it

anything more we can put elsewhere or in a new thread i imagine

daveddd
02-09-13, 02:39 PM
I think it depends on whether we are talking about...

1)Anxiety and Depression (and Addiction) interfering with early development resulting in ADD for the first time?

or

2)Anxiety and Depression (and Addiction) as the results of living with ADD?


I think Anxiety and Depression (and Addiction) have roles in both #1 and #2

In my experience anyway.


There may be other factors that I am not including,

that might involve mine and other people's experience.



Like the type of support the individual may or may not have in early life,

individual sensitivity, epigenetic factors, stress etc.

but even these topics seem like they could be related to anxiety and depression (and addiction)


.


.

do you believe that anxiety and depression are part of the inborn temperament

do you think the inborn temperment is genetic and present at birth?

sorry, sometimes without yes or no's things just dont resonate properly with me

id like to continue the conversation

mildadhd
02-09-13, 07:03 PM
do you believe that anxiety and depression are part of the inborn temperament

do you think the inborn temperment is genetic and present at birth?

sorry, sometimes without yes or no's things just dont resonate properly with me

id like to continue the conversation


I agree these topics are to interdependently complex for one yes or no answer.

Great question.

It might be easier,

if we think of development happening in stages.


( I am unsure if I am using "gateway" in a proper scientific manner, that is specifically used by Dr.Jaak Panksepp in the OP quote

but I like the way he expresses the "gateway" like it is a separate stage, instead of one conclusion about the WHOLE topic)


More realistic to the actual fact, in my opinion.(will explain more in the post about "stage" after birth)



(any information I present about stages is not completely accurate,

and very general for this discussion,

experts have more specific names and more specific time ranges for different stages of human development,

I have not studied them specifically yet).




The stage before birth.

The number and density of synapses,

involved with the brain are mostly determined before birth,

but they lack external environmental stimuli for complete development in humans.(most specifically the higher brain (cortex))

This happens after birth. (lets save information the applies to the "stage" after birth for a different post.)



Focusing on prenatal effects in utero.(before birth)

Research has shown that these incomplete receptors involved with the prefrontal cortex can be interfered with by abnormal amounts of stress,

before birth, with the last (3rd trimester) being the most sensitive to environmental stresses.

a sensitive nature (temperament) could be a result of this exposure to abnormal stress.


There is also epigenetic effects like chemical exposure in utero that could result in a sensitive nature (temperament)

What is very interesting about the influence of epigenetic effect as a result of chemical exposure,

is that this type of interference can skip generations,

meaning that grandparents exposure to certain chemicals,

can skip the parents,

and be expressed in the grandchildren.

(this is my favorite example because it avoids all the dispute of blame and fault)

So epigenetic effects could result in a sensitive nature (temperament) even before birth.

(there are probably many types of epigenetic effects that could result in a more sensitive nature (temperament),

this is just one general explanation.


Another example could be oxygen deprivation, that could result in a sensitive nature (temperament)etc.


I would say that yes because of the reasons above,

a sensitive infants reaction could be more sensitive at birth.


For clarity,

I would like to discuss the stage after birth in the next post.


(I can present research upon requests about any topics in this thread,

I am also not a professional and my use of scientific terms may need some correction,

so please ask for clarity,

I don't claim to know everything,

but I am confident in the general idea.)


Any questions, thoughts, insight before I post about the stage after birth?


.


.

daveddd
02-09-13, 07:11 PM
by sensitive temperament , do you mean overstimulated/over aroused /hypervigilant?

mildadhd
02-10-13, 01:58 AM
by sensitive temperament , do you mean overstimulated/over aroused /hypervigilant?


I think you are very close,

I looked up hypervigilant and I think it fits good, (I am not 100% sure yet)

Overstimulated/over aroused/aroused,

might fit better as a response to having a sensitive nature (temperament)?

I'm not 100% sure, will need to review the topic of arousal/over arousal.

You could be right, lets come back to this question.


I would like to compare opinions before I come to any conclusions




The derivation of sensitivity is from the Latin word sensir, "to feel".

Degrees of sensitivity reflect degrees of feeling.

Of the various Oxford Dictionary definitions of sensitive,

it will be useful to keep three in mind.

Each is exquisitely apt as a description of the ADD child:


1. Very open to or acutely affected by external stimuli or mental impressions.

2. Easlily offended, or emotionally hurt.

3. (As of an instrument) responsive to or recording small changes.


The word has another connotation,

that of being empathetic,

respectful of other people's feelings.

The two meanings may coexist in the same individual,

but not in every case.

Some of the most sensitive people in terms of how they react may be the least mindful of the feelings of others.



Some human beings are hyperreactive.

A relatively negligible stimulus,

or what to other people would seem negligilble,

set off in them an intense reaction.

When this happens in response to physical stimuli,

we say the person is allergic.

Someone allergic to, say, bee venom may choke,

wheeze and gasp for air when stung.

The small airways in the lungs may go into spasm,

tissues in the throat may swell,

the heartbeat may become irregular.

His life may be in peril.

The nonallergic person,

had she been stung by the same bee,

would experience no more than a momentary pain,

a welt, an irritating itch.

Was it the bee sting that sent the first victim into physiological crisis?

Not directly.

It was his own physiological responses that brought him close to death.

More accurately, it was the combination of stimulus and reaction.

The precise medical term for an allergy, for this hyperreactivity,

is hypersensitivity.




People with ADD are hypersensitive.

That is not a fault or a weakness of theirs, it is how they were born.

It is their inborn temperament.

That, primarily, is what is hereditary about ADD.

Genetic inheritance by itself cannot account for the presence of ADD features in people,

but heredity can make it far more likely that these features will emerge in a given individual,

depending on circumstances.

It is sensitivity, not disorder, that is transmitted through heredity.

In most cases, ADD is caused by the impact of the environment on particularly sensitive infants.




Sensitive is the reason why allergies are more common among ADD children than in the rest of the population.

It is well known, and borne out again and again in clinical practice,

that children with ADD are more likely than their non-ADD counterparts to have a history of frequent colds,

upper respiratory infections, ear infections, asthma, eczema and allergies,

a fact interpreted by some as evidence that ADD is due to allergies.

Although the flare-up of allergies can certainly aggravate ADD symptoms,

the one does not cause the other.

They both are expressions of the same underlying inborn trait: sensitivity.

Since emotionally hypersensitive reactions are no less physiological than the body's allergic responses to physical substances,

we may say truthfully that people with ADD have emotional allergies.





Almost any parent with an ADD child,

or any adult living with an ADD spouse,

will have noticed in the ADD person a touchiness, a "thin skin".

People with ADD are forever told that they are "too sensitive" or that they should stop being "so touchy."

One might as well advise a child with hay fever to stop being "so allergic"


All quotes from:

-Gabor Mate M.D., Scattered, (Emotional Allergies), p 58-59.




Side Note: One thing I have often heard from friends and family is that I "care to much". (hypersensitivity?)

(Opinions appreciated.)


.

daveddd
02-10-13, 10:04 PM
that sounds about right

i believe the inborn temperament your talking about spills into the BAS and its thought we have enhanced empathy

mildadhd
02-10-13, 10:09 PM
that sounds about right

i believe the inborn temperament your talking about spills into the BAS and its thought we have enhanced empathy


What is the BAS?

daveddd
02-10-13, 10:28 PM
sorry BIS, BAS is the reward system
http://books.google.com/books?id=cQjx7BARaqQC&pg=PA339&dq=empathetic+processing+behavioral+inhibition+sys tem&hl=en&sa=X&ei=NlYYUZmLH9K0qAHZnYGADg&ved=0CFgQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=empathetic%20processing%20behavioral%20inhibitio n%20system&f=false