View Full Version : Reward Seeking (Branch from Norepinephrine and “High” Motivational Salience)


SB_UK
03-03-13, 05:50 AM
Split from thread Norepinephrine and “High” Motivational Salience
(http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141232)

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0003044
... ... that selective prefrontal norepinephrine depletion abolished the increase of norepinephrine release in the medial prefrontal cortex induced by exposure to appetitive (palatable food) or aversive (light) stimuli independently of salience.

... indicating that prefrontal noradrenergic transmission determines approach or avoidance responses to both reward- and aversion-related natural stimuli Thanks - interesting.
Almost as though it's suggesting that this system determines our reaction to good and evil - can abolish the emotional reaction to good and evil - potentially pathologically ... ... however - it's easy to see how abolition of the distinction between good and evil might make the world a better place.

Light is aversive ?

That's interesting - hated light (like Abi) up until the last couple of years - at which point I began to feel more than the attraction for sunlight ... ... only! the attraction for sunlight.

[see original post (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1453526&postcount=5) for more in depth look at the science related aspects of this].

So - what's the connection ?

Adrenaline (motivation) as we try and construct the mind (ascend and transcend the Tree of knowledge of Good and Evil)
As we ascend we're 'locked' within a model of reality of Good and Evil.
->-
Food (rewards) and Light results in an aversive response
->-
We'd expect this pattern to disappear upon transcending this system ... ... no particular attraction to food ;) and attraction to light :) ... ...
->-
Insulin/IGF-1 is of particular importance to the developmental stage (of body/mind) and calcium is a notable secondary messenger in insulin functioning.
->-
calcium levels are high in milk - intended as food only in infancy (not that that's what we do) - resulting in growth.
Growth is good - too much growth is a very bad thing.
->-
We're locked into growth-mode as long as the attraction to food (food producing reward) remains - and so are in a growth trajectory up until completion of mind.
->-
Light aversion (growth permissive), protein, dairy, meat, starch, sugar are all intrinsically rewarding (until completion of mind) ... ... which isn't good - because we don't want to supply the body with factors which support growth - when there's no growth left in the system.

The profile of diet which we're attracted to mirrors mother's milk (calcium, high protein, high sugar high fat) ... ... until completion of mind - resulting in early and widespread diabesity.

-*-

At its root - the mind isn't building in countries with intense educational schemes.
What's happening is that people are being created with some great speciality in a tiny, tiny, tiny area - which isn't what makes a mind - the mind needs to be able to cross the entire mindcape ... ... not learn a specific dialect of klingon.

-*-

However - and a little difficult to get one's head around - this pattern of resistance is occurring to a backdrop of the entire system (loss of the reward/aversive response) dying out with proper education - and terminating at wisdom.

That is - upon ascent of the Tree of knowledge of good and evil - there's nothing which the individual sees (intrinsically) as good (palatable food) or evil (eg Abi's light).

-*-

So - 2 angles - we require balance of the aversive/reward system - gradual diminuition until it 'dies' out ... ... where the ADDer - through hosting a stress response pushes the balance in the opposite direction - taking the ADDer ever further from transcending the system (requiring sensitivity to the systems) in the presence of resistance syndromes to elevating levels.

SB_UK
03-03-13, 06:03 AM
Trying to summarise

Why is certain food denoted by the individual as rewarding (palatable) ?
Why is light recognized by the individual as aversive ?

There has to be a mechanism.

The mechanism is - that the individual is in 'growth' mode and remains in 'growth' mode until both the body and mind are built.

'Growth' mode remains engaged (in the strict perspective of the mind) as long as the individual (his/her perception of the world is seen in terms of 'good and 'evil')
- as long as there's a mechanism (this noradrenergic mechanism) keeping that perspective in place.

Upon gaining a mind - both the aversive/reward aspects of this system are lost.

So - we've the conflicting directions of ADDer through resistance syndrome to stress hormones and neurotransmitters seizing ahold of aversive/rewarding stimulation and not being allowed to let go of these factors (with mind)
- this (the loss of the aversion/reward system) representing the key neurological change which occurs upon wisdom/enlightenment.

Described previously as transcending the pleasure/pain (pleasure requiring pain paradigm) (pleasure (reward), pain (aversion)) for a state of mind of bliss
... ... ... if society so allows the mind in that state to be left alone.

The meaning in life is to transcend the perception of good and evil ... ... after which - you're free; no need to be the President of USA, the Olympic champion in the 100m, to become a millionaire, to be a member of fashionable society ... ...

... ... all of those aspirations are empty and will not bring any sense of reward.

When asked if David Rockefeller had made enough money --- Rockefeller responded 'when I've made just a little more ...'

Always, just a little more.

The goal is to lose the entire 'artificial' reward system paradigm - releasing a primitive (the materialist) grip on free will ... ... and ... .... permitting the individual the experiential state of bliss.

We're imprisoned by that desire for stuff (money,power,fame,ownership) - which so allures.

SB_UK
03-03-13, 06:16 AM
So ... ... the overwhelming overlap between stress and stimulation - leads to the stress sensitive ADDer becoming resistant to stress-related hormones/neurotransmitters - requiring larger levels to excite us.
And all of this to a backdrop of the need to go in the opposite direction ... ... as we're (ADDers) scaling up the stimulation required (to resistance syndrome) - the mind (if it's building - which it's very hard to do as one reactively seeks stimulation) - seeks to take us in the opposite direction - to transcend the entire reward/aversion paradigm [also reactively].

Developing both resistance (through chronic stress exposure) and sensitivity (development of mind) simultaneously.

If we see this as travelling both forwards and backwards at 30 mph - then we'd 'go' nowhere ... ... however - the mind (being the higher emergent property) is much stronger (as it builds) resulting in it taking us forwards faster than material world attachment can take us back ... ... resulting in (at its core) - the addictive propensity (which ramps up in ADDer without luxury of mind)... ... resulting in ADDer self-destruction to self-medication.

SB_UK
03-03-13, 06:22 AM
We're perhaps required to identify whether we're eating the wrong dliet.

Fast catch-up growth in Syndrome X'ers (which never stops leading to diabesity) is a sign that we are.

However - there is only one solution to this problem.

The Syndrome X'er/ADDer are reacting exactly as one would expect under stress - reaching for stress-relief ... ... leading to resistance syndromes in stress hormones/the stimulant system

... ... ... the sole solution to the emerging problem is to eliminate the stress which people feel ... ... by offering all people on the planet a zero energy home and sufficient food as a birth--right - by people doing for themselves.

We'd thereby decouple the need for money from survival - resulting in the only key stress which people are subject to - which is unmanageable.

SB_UK
03-03-13, 06:26 AM
So - it's true that we can connect eg endocrine imbalance (stress hormone resistance syndromes) leading to SNS/PNS imbalance leading to Insulin/IGF-1 (growth mode engaged) hyperactivity to the problems we face ... ... ... improper mental development, immune system and neurological system hyperactivity, societal collapse ... ... ...however there's no way of solving these problems without complete global re-definition of societal infrastructure - decoupling the need for money from happy survival.

We have all the science and technology we require to make it happen.

And so what're we waiting for ???

SB_UK
03-03-13, 06:42 AM
key point - convergence between stimulation and stress hormonal and neurotransmission systems - elevated hormonal / neurot. production - in stress/stimulant sensitive cohort resulting through negative feedback in resistance syndromes which have us reaching for stimulation in a bottle in order to engage/motivate.

Thing is - is that we're being stressed out attempting to engage in pointless (go nowhere) endeavours ... ... and so it's unsurprising that we react in this way.

AD(H)D - stress* sensitivity in an unnecessarily stress-ful worldEliminate the immoral, pointless, 'go nowhere' behaviours which society forces us into engaging in ... ... and we're good to go.

Our disorder is completely contextual and results from the immoral (not in the best interests of the species) materialist paradigm (money/legal system) (as desribed above - that which we're attempting to escape ... ... with mind) dictating behaviour.

Abi
03-03-13, 11:13 AM
sb,

if enlightenment is reached and reward is no more, wont a person be bored and miserable?

because there would be no pleasure, yes?

so i would not get pleasure from a good meal or some good whiskey or a TV show or sex...

what happens to people in a pleasureless existance?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBcoo8i33L0

VOltaire
03-03-13, 11:24 AM
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0003044
Thanks - interesting.
Almost as though it's suggesting that this system determines our reaction to good and evil - can abolish the emotional reaction to good and evil - potentially pathologically ... ... however - it's easy to see how abolition of the distinction between good and evil might make the world a better place.

Light is aversive ?

That's interesting - hated light (like Abi) up until the last couple of years - at which point I began to feel more than the attraction for sunlight ... ... only! the attraction for sunlight.

[see original post (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1453526&postcount=5) for more in depth look at the science related aspects of this].

So - what's the connection ?

Adrenaline (motivation) as we try and construct the mind (ascend and transcend the Tree of knowledge of Good and Evil)
As we ascend we're 'locked' within a model of reality of Good and Evil.
->-
Food (rewards) and Light results in an aversive response
->-
We'd expect this pattern to disappear upon transcending this system ... ... no particular attraction to food ;) and attraction to light :) ... ...
->-
Insulin/IGF-1 is of particular importance to the developmental stage (of body/mind) and calcium is a notable secondary messenger in insulin functioning.
->-
calcium levels are high in milk - intended as food only in infancy (not that that's what we do) - resulting in growth.
Growth is good - too much growth is a very bad thing.
->-
We're locked into growth-mode as long as the attraction to food (food producing reward) remains - and so are in a growth trajectory up until completion of mind.
->-
Light aversion (growth permissive), protein, dairy, meat, starch, sugar are all intrinsically rewarding (until completion of mind) ... ... which isn't good - because we don't want to supply the body with factors which support growth - when there's no growth left in the system.

The profile of diet which we're attracted to mirrors mother's milk (calcium, high protein, high sugar high fat) ... ... until completion of mind - resulting in early and widespread diabesity.

-*-

At its root - the mind isn't building in countries with intense educational schemes.
What's happening is that people are being created with some great speciality in a tiny, tiny, tiny area - which isn't what makes a mind - the mind needs to be able to cross the entire mindcape ... ... not learn a specific dialect of klingon.

-*-

However - and a little difficult to get one's head around - this pattern of resistance is occurring to a backdrop of the entire system (loss of the reward/aversive response) dying out with proper education - and terminating at wisdom.

That is - upon ascent of the Tree of knowledge of good and evil - there's nothing which the individual sees (intrinsically) as good (palatable food) or evil (eg Abi's light).

-*-

So - 2 angles - we require balance of the aversive/reward system - gradual diminuition until it 'dies' out ... ... where the ADDer - through hosting a stress response pushes the balance in the opposite direction - taking the ADDer ever further from transcending the system (requiring sensitivity to the systems) in the presence of resistance syndromes to elevating levels.


sb,

if enlightenment is reached and reward is no more, wont a person be bored and miserable?

because there would be no pleasure, yes?

so i would not get pleasure from a good meal or some good whiskey or a TV show or sex...

what happens to people in a pleasureless existance?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBcoo8i33L0
Life isn't about a reward or a prize! I have found enlightenment and pleasure when I adjusted my moral compass and realized it wasn't about me anymore.

SB_UK
03-03-13, 12:56 PM
Life isn't about a reward or a prize! I have found enlightenment and pleasure when I adjusted my moral compass and realized it wasn't about me anymore.

Exactly.

We're happy when me ceases to be about :scratch: me.

SB_UK
03-03-13, 01:03 PM
sb,

if enlightenment is reached and reward is no more, wont a person be bored and miserable?

because there would be no pleasure, yes?

so i would not get pleasure from a good meal or some good whiskey or a TV show or sex...

what happens to people in a pleasureless existance?

It feels like as soon as we lose the 'pleasure' the 'pain' vanishes too ... ... and we're left in bliss :D.

(without the need to do anything other than breathe)

The goal in life is to become a happy mitochondrial vessel - all that the mitochondrion wants is a bit of fat and oxygen - and an outer vessel which has some nice usage (aerobic exercise for instance) for its ATP
... ... driving mitochondrial biogenesis and more of the little chaps into action.

SB_UK
03-03-13, 01:07 PM
a good meal or some good whiskey or a TV show or sex...
All gone - and you won't miss 'em.


The stimulation from all of these pursuits was a placeholder (for reward) in on mind completion/pair-bond formation (whereupon we get to attain reward either alone or via pair-bond).

SB_UK
03-03-13, 01:10 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBcoo8i33L0

:lol:

Fear dies too.

That trailer's silly.

Why'd someone commit suicide and then try and come back to life ?

Please don't:thankyou: answer that question.

SB_UK
03-03-13, 01:21 PM
It feels like as soon as we lose the 'pleasure' the 'pain' vanishes too ... ... and we're left in bliss :D.

(without the need to do anything other than breathe)

The goal in life is to become a happy mitochondrial vessel - all that the mitochondrion wants is a bit of fat and oxygen - and an outer vessel which has some nice usage (aerobic exercise for instance) for its ATP
... ... driving mitochondrial biogenesis and more of the little chaps into action.

A good question to ask 'd be why on earth did we have to go through all of this reward-seeking stress-courting behaviour to get through to (and finally!) being able to sit still in a happy place - doing nothing other than making water.

To which the answer to that question 'd be that this whole evolutionary thing needs to occur in stages - to climb from early emergent to highest emergent layer - one layer at a time ... ... and that we're in the process of putting our highest emergent property (man as a social species) into place
... ... after which, I'm hoping - no more self-harm through self-medication and premature death to chronic disease will be seen.

In fact - I know that the social species will not suffer the pain of current existence - we're simply guilty of stressing one another out into overt disease - through failure to realise what we're all (transcending material attachment from enlightenment through pair-bondingx2 through social species formation) about.

VOltaire
03-03-13, 01:45 PM
Exactly.

We're happy when me ceases to be about :scratch: me.

Taking the focus not health off yourself and allowing others to be benefit is the greatest gift I personally have ever recieved, Too mundane????

mildadhd
03-04-13, 05:29 PM
SB_UK,

This is very interesting,

could you put a Physiology Explanation of your posts, in the Science Section?

With a link to the Meditation and Spirituality Section?

It would fascinating to see the translation.

I really appreciate your step by step in depth explanations, and questions.

Even if you could put a few key physiology terms, both, macro and micro or neither. (no requirements, what ever you think best)

No stress if not possible.

I am way behind on researching all the information you present anyway.

It is fun looking at the whole system and part systems.

I never read about Buddha before, but I get the feeling from others, Buddha was a Physiologist?





i!i

Abi
03-04-13, 07:04 PM
Moderator Note

could you put a Physiology Explanation of your posts, in the Science Section?

With a link to the Meditation and Spirituality Section?

I would like to refer the participants on this thread to the ADDF guidelines regarding religious posts:

From the main ADDF guidelines:
Banned Topics:
* The main focus of ADD Forums is to provide a safe supportive place for people affected by AD/HD, and other co-morbid disorders. To do this, sometimes we must limit the scope of the permitted topics, to foster such a supportive environment.

* We have had issues arise here that have prevented this from happening - primarily members voicing their opinions about religious and political matters. While everyone is allowed their own opinions, there really is no other way to prevent such issues from "disturbing the peace", except to keep these things completely out of the ADD Forums in the first place.

* It is against ADD Forums Guidelines to discuss religious and political matters on the ADD Forums.

The Meditation & Spirituality section was created for the purpose of allowing members to discuss how their spirituality helps them with dealing with their ADHD and/or how ADHD impacts their ability to practice their spiritual rites and duties.

From the Meditation & Spirituality Guidelines:
This section is here to offer a place for members to discuss meditation and spirituality as a means of treating and/or managing their ADHD or other disorders.

Our goal is to offer a safe, supportive atmosphere for all members. We are a diverse group, coming from many different cultures, religions and backgrounds. It is important for us to remember and respect that. Therefore the following guidelines apply:

*The bashing of other religions, groups or individuals is not permitted.

*Evangelism is not permitted in this section. Share what has encouraged you, don’t sell it.



While ADDF moderators will not remove every link to a Medit. & Spir. thread from a thread elsewhere on the forums, any member who does this excessively will be deemed guilty of evangelising and have such links removed.

The no-religion-outside-of-the-M&S-section rule applies because, as stated in the main forum guidelines above, ADDF members form a diverse group, subscribig to any one of a variety of religions or paths, or none at all. Members who post on the main boards should not have to be bombarded with links to material of a religious/spiritual nature that may not be in line with their own beliefs.

Thank you for your consideration.

-Abi

mildadhd
03-04-13, 09:15 PM
Sorry wasn't trying to push any buttons,

SB_UK and other members really help me learn a lot about the relationship between different factors.

Not sure where I was going, with all this.

A comparison would be kind of like learning values of carpentry from a person with Christian out look. (I hope that makes sense)

I don't know, just really like how SB_UK uses physiology to describe things.

Its kind of like watching American Football, with so many factors going on at one time.

Keeps the mind busy.

mildadhd
03-05-13, 12:47 AM
This information is science about the reward system.

I made a mistake.


I think I misunderstood what SB_UK is saying.

It is about motivation and the reward system.

That is what I think he talking is about.

On a physiological level that I could not comprehend.

I was researching information specifically about the opening post research,(original)

and they started using words, that SB_UK uses that I actually had no idea about previously ,

except from from SB_UK and a few other members.

And assumed I was buddhist,

I don't even know if SB_UK is buddhist,

or what a Buddhist is?

I was wrong to comment.

This is science.

I was wrong.

Sorry SB_UK.


Understanding the physiology of the reward system.

Requires using words like monetary and good and bad etc.

I was assuming he was discussing religion or spirituality or.....??

that I don't know enough about and I should never have commented about.

Sorry for assuming SB_UK!

That's what SB_UK posts seem to be about!

The reward system, but I didn't have a clue.

I learn a big lesson today.


Peripheral

.