View Full Version : Does adoption twin studies rule out abnormal environmental stressors?


mildadhd
03-15-13, 12:39 PM
Does adoption twin studies rule out abnormal environmental stressors?




Abstract
Considerable debate has arisen in the professional literature regarding the possibility
of increased psychological risk in adopted children compared with nonadopted
children. A selective review of the literature indicates that, although most adoptees
are well within the normal range of functioning, as a group they are more vulnerable
to various emotional, behavioral, and academic problems than their nonadopted
peers living in intact homes with their biological parents. Methodological problems
associated with adoption research are discussed, and a new conceptual model of
adoption adjustment is offered



http://futureofchildren.org/futureofchildren/publications/docs/03_01_12.PDF

mildadhd
03-15-13, 01:05 PM
(approx. 205:00)

The other research finding is the following and it is been found in every single study,

there is no correlation, between any trait of ADD and the adopted child and the people who raise them.

None.

If you think parenting is so powerful prove it. -Dr.Barkley


In my opinion,

I disagree with Dr. Barkley that "there is no correlation,

between any ADD trait and the adopted child and the people who raise them."

I disagree that there is "None".

I think there can be both good and bad parental influences,

between ADD traits and the adopted child and the people raise them.

In my opinion Dr.Barkley is totally underestimating the role of environmental influence in ADD traits,

and Dr.Barkley's view that there is "none" is incorrect.

(especially when discussing adoption occurring before the age of 4)(but not limited to)






.

SB_UK
03-15-13, 01:15 PM
Does adoption twin studies rule out abnormal environmental stressors?Twin studies as a measure of 'geneticness' have been used prior to epigenetic inheritance mechanisms being recognized.

Epigenetic inheritance completely confounds the heritability estimate (in twin studies) as a measure of classical 'geneticness'.

So - absolutely not to - adoption twin studies [do not] rule out abnormal environmental stressors?

The idea that's trying to be sold in MZ and DZ twin studies adopted and so reared apart - is that if the disorder appears in twins reared apart - that it's 'classically genetic' - whereas epigenetic changes in the last trimester/first three years of life (as you write) prior to adoption - will 'stamp' child epigenetically with a phenotype which'll be expressed in both situations.
Also - MZ pair will be exposed to similar levels of cortisol (so similarly epigenetically stamped) in relation to the DZ pair - and so epigenetic modification 'd superficially appear to indicate a classical genetic mode of inheritance.

SB_UK
03-15-13, 01:27 PM
Epigenetic stamping MZ pair in utero (last trimester) and during the first three years of life - would be expected to be similar in identical twins experiencing the same in utero environment - and the same level of stress (lack of attachment/attunement) to parent.

It's quite possible that DZ pair will be less similar.

It's quite possible that siblings will be even less similar.

Though where in all three cases - the broad similarity - 'd make siblings more similar - that for instance, seen in some other family.

All of which places epigenetic inheritance as 'stamping' the child in exactly the manner which the genetics community have taken to infer a classical genetic mechanism.

This is one of the most significant points which needs to be understood - to deconvolute the data mess we're currently in.

SB_UK
03-15-13, 01:29 PM
This subject is out there now.
Epigenetic Inheritance and the Missing Heritability Problem
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2710163/

Noting that even though the abstract suggests that epigenetics won't address the missing heritability problem - the final sentence in the abstract opens the door to the prospect.
The model highlights the need for empirical estimates of the persistence times of heritable epialleles.I've asked an epigenetics researcher who really would know the answer to this question - and he didn't know; the answer is not out there yet.

All down to epiallele persistence - where I'm pretty sure that the epialleles which're resulting in lower energetic requirement will persist -- that is - will be strongly selected for and retained - conferring increased survival likelihood as they will.

This one principle neatly allows us to transform the current data - into a form which aligns with the apparently highly heritable conditions of the common, multifactorial diseases - the diseases which pharmaceutical companies sniff around anticipating profit$.

SB_UK
03-15-13, 01:47 PM
http://www.nature.com/ng/journal/v41/n2/abs/ng.286.html

An intraclass correlation (ICC)-based comparison of matched MZ and DZ twins showed significantly higher epigenetic difference in buccal cells of DZ co-twins (P = 1.2 http://www.nature.com/__chars/math/special/times/black/med/base/glyph.gif 10-294). This nails the argument.

... ... suggesting that molecular mechanisms of heritability may not be limited to DNA sequence differences.

All of which places epigenetic inheritance as 'stamping' the child in exactly the manner which the genetics community have taken to infer a classical genetic mechanism.
Game over ?

eclectic beagle
03-15-13, 02:14 PM
Well, what I remember reading is that adopted children were more likely to display the personality traits of their biological parents, rather than the adoptive parents. I'm not sure if those studies dealt with twins or not.

I also remember that there was a study dealing with the effects of children who grew up with no stimuli, it was as if there neurons were weirdly stunted, and their brains never grew correctly.

So, I think profound environmental stressors can at the very least heavily mimic ADHD issues, but that the occurrences of them are obviously rare.

Dizfriz
03-15-13, 03:36 PM
In my opinion, I disagree with Dr. Barkley that "there is no correlation, between any ADD trait and the adopted child and the people who raise them." I disagree that there is "None".

I think there is some confusion here. Correlation is a mathematical relationship between different factors.

Here it is simple. You measure ADHD traits of the children and ADHD traits of the the adoptive parents and see if there is any mathematical relationship.

Agreement or disagreement is irrelevant, opinion is irrelevant; it is routine math.

What can be criticized is the selection of the traits or the measurement of them. Here, agreement or disagreement is possible but not the existence nor the validity of the correlations themselves.

What you may be misunderstanding is that correlation does not in any imply causation, that is a separate subject. All correlation tells is that there is or is not a connection and how strong that connection is but does not address what that connection is.


I think there can be both good and bad parental influences, between ADD traits and the adopted child and the people raise them.This is true with any family. That is why parent training is so successful in working with ADHD children.

In my opinion Dr.Barkley is totally underestimating the role of environmental influence in ADD traits, and Dr.Barkley's view that there is "none" is incorrect. (especially when discussing adoption occurring before the age of 4)(but not limited to)That may be but here he is comparing the mathematical relationship of the traits of the adoptive parents and the adopted children. The role of environmental influence is not relevant here. It is relevant in other aspects but not in this situation.

Hope this helps a little,

Dizfriz

lalapin
03-15-13, 03:37 PM
Yes, unless they coincidentally end up in places with similar stressors?

SB_UK
03-15-13, 03:48 PM
--- Still thinking about this idea ---

Not sure where this idea is heading ... ...
... ... just an idea.

[1] The nerve cell doesn't divide at all fast.
[2] The virus likes cells which divide fast - presumably because they rely on the cell's machinery for their own expansion.
[3] The virus will be the most primitive form of pathogenic assault (arising as it does - as a pre-life form).
[4] Under stress (which associates with cortisol - the stress hormone) - it'd make sense if cortisol could induce a global methylation pattern in cells which 'switch' a cell off - away from growth - and into maintenance mode - particularly attractive - given what we know of our cells only having a certain number of divisions open to them on account of telomere shortening at each division (exactly as demonstrated by the premature ageing of Dolly the sheep).
[5] So ... ... one of the reactions to stress - not only to protect the organism from lack of food availability (the key stress which life has experienced) - but also to protect the organism against viral assault (the second key stress which I guess life would encounter) -
- with (conveniently) - the same basic change - switching (through methylation) - the cell away from growth capacity and into maintenance phase 'd accomplish both goals.
[5] This 'd presumably switch the organism away from the ability to handle the growth foods - insulin/IGF-1 of glucose (hyperglycaemic foods) and protein (fast mobilized) ... ... and into a strange state in which these foodstuffs if ingested - 'd lead to the most horrible immediate reactive pain in all joints - particularly hands and feet - and the gums too.

Sensitivity in systems when growth is prevented through genomic epigenetic change.

--- Still thinking about this idea ---

SB_UK
03-15-13, 03:58 PM
What am I trying to get at ?
That stress 'whittles' away at the cells' genomes of the body - shifting them away from growth ability (growth phase) and into steady-state metabolism preferring (plateau phase) ... ...

That 'getting' those genomes fully methylated as quickly as possible is the goal - since ageing then slows to a trickle.

That this is a good thing - if we examine the alarming rate of cancers in this world - that is - that this basic process of switching off growth 'd be tremendously cancer-protective.

Thing is - you need enough - but not too much stress.

So the life on Athos will involve stress - but not too much.

We're suited to the stress of hours of aerobic exercise and limited food intake ... ... but can't handle chronic psych. stress of living in a world of money.

So - we need to stress the body through aerobic exercise, exercising the mind into understanding context, reducing food intake
- but need to escape the stresses of living life in a hierarchical structure, eating non-real foods (processed etc), using the mind in immoral contexts (eg law).

-*-

I'm simply recreating the lifestyle on Mount Athos more generally throughout the world - keeping the stresses they're exposed to - throwing out the stresses which they're free from
- in order to eliminate disease.

Trying to get a step closer to the connection between stress hormone and kicking the cell out of growth phase.

SB_UK
03-15-13, 04:04 PM
"Cortisone is a mitotic inhibitor"
abstract (1952)
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/path.1700880131/abstract

'The dose of cortisone to inhibit mitosis was sometimes so high'
... ... indicating that the effects of cortisone from day 1 conception (in utero - when the foetus is small) 'd be really very great.

That is - that cortisone exposure in utero will have a disproportionate effect on global genomic methylation patterns ?

mildadhd
03-15-13, 04:32 PM
Well, what I remember reading is that adopted children were more likely to display the personality traits of their biological parents, rather than the adoptive parents. I'm not sure if those studies dealt with twins or not.

I also remember that there was a study dealing with the effects of children who grew up with no stimuli, it was as if there neurons were weirdly stunted, and their brains never grew correctly.

So, I think profound environmental stressors can at the very least heavily mimic ADHD issues, but that the occurrences of them are obviously rare.

MentalNomad,


Your right there is some differences.

And they are important differences to recognize.

It also recognizes the importance of freedom of choice.

(This is a really important topic, I will come back to it.)



Parents emotional influences,

in the development of self regulation peak at age one.



ADD is sometimes called a lack of self regulation.


A tolerance that results in a lack of development

, many times due to over exposure,

of abnormal amounts of chemical(s),

over a period of time.



A physiological example of tolerance,

would be similar to the nature of cocaine tolerance.



When the brian slows the natural production of chemicals,

to reach homeostasis. (balance)

Due to an over abundance of the substance(s),

from environmental sources.




I know some children who where adopted,

who might not have developed ADD,

specifically because of the parental influence/understanding.



I think it averages out to be a 50 : 50 ratio,

"both thing".(environmental and genetical = Heredity)


There is mention of epigenetic evidence of chemical exposure,

that can result in a over sensitive individual from the beginning.

That can epigenetically skip a generation.


That takes the blame off the parents.


And we can discuss parental influences in neuroplasticity,

during the critical time of development of self regulation,

before the age of 4.

(Peaking at age 1)


Guiding children through this time in development,

past the critical time of brain development,

would be an enormous contribution to our societies.


We can't get ADD after the age of 7.


So the question is..

What period of parental influence is most important?

Especially if we are discussing a lack of self regulation,

and the critical time of brain development.












.

SB_UK
03-15-13, 04:32 PM
It just makes the most sense - that stress 'd arrest growth.
Because growth requires energy.

Under stress - switch off all non essential functions, batten down the hatches - and prepare to weather the storm; in a time of low food availability (Winter) - animals hibernate - 'switch off'.

And of course - there'd need to be a mechanism by which this process occurs.

By which stress takes the organism down from growth into basal aerobic functioning (maintenance mode).

[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Housekeeping_gene) Housekeeping genes are typically constitutive genes that are required for the maintenance of basic cellular function, and are expressed in all cells of an organism.
[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CpG_island) CpG islands typically occur at or near the transcription start site of genes, particularly housekeeping genes, in vertebrates.
[3] (http://mcb.asm.org/content/19/10/6690.full) De novo methylation of CpG islands within the promoters of eukaryotic genes is often associated with their transcriptional repression ... ...
[4] Switching housekeeping genes down to a basal minimum (through methylation) - surely'd make the cells basally active.
Basally functional ?
Stuck in maintenance mode - without any 'desire' (cellular machinery active) for growth/cell division.

I feel pain when I eat any 'growth' promoting foodstuff.

SB_UK
03-15-13, 04:47 PM
~s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immunosuppression)~ Cortisone was the first immunosuppressant identified ... ...

indicating that the body under stress hormone isn't trying to fight back - it's trying to switch off.

That stress hormone is attempting to switch the body off.

Where switching the body off can only mean (given we've only a finite number of cell divisions open to us) - slowing the rate of cell division (mitosis) to a snail's pace.

This idea clearly places those without restraint in their lifestyle (without stress to train back their genome) - at higher risk of cancer.

And we connect back round to the high rates of cancer in the Western world - and the absence of cancer on Mount Athos.

It's simply that people are having their cake and eating it - and their body is (without the methylation pattern from good, manageable stress (maybe from stress per se) cutting their genome back)
... ... overgrowing.

Cancer.

SB_UK
03-15-13, 04:58 PM
Back round to this idea:
~s (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1590266)~ Food restriction has its anti-aging action by reducing the intake of energy rather than a specific nutrient. <- good stress
... ... and of course - the ketogenic diet

~s (http://www.anorexia-reflections.com/ketosis-symptoms.html#axzz2NdzpPijn)~[1] no intake of carbs [and fast mobilized protein] as a result of diet, [2] starvation, or [3] during excessive exercise

Or all three :-) simultaneously.

-*-

What's the pattern here ?
A certain pattern of lifestyle which associates with ketosis appears to represent good stress - produces manageable stress (and stress hormone - cortisone) - epigenetically sculpts the genome into maintenance mode - extends life.

Definitely - that all works :-)

We've the cure to all disease, to healthy ageing ... ... to all of the other unpleasant aspects of life currently (high divorce rates, high crime rates, the existence of lawyers etc) ... ...

SB_UK
03-15-13, 05:03 PM
That is (the previous post) - that the vegan low carb diet mimics the state of ketosis in starvation - which drives the stress we need to sculpt our epigenome.

That is - we don't need to starve - there is a type of food [the MUFA-rich foodstuffs] which mimic the good stress inducing properties of starvation.

mildadhd
03-15-13, 05:23 PM
Yes, unless they coincidentally end up in places with similar stressors?



Considering that twins share the same womb for 9 months.

Also the amount and density of the receptors involved with ADD,

are determined mostly before birth. (but not completed)


And also the third trimester is the most sensitive trimester,

to be over exposed to abnormal maternal stressors,

and infants exposed to stressors during this prenatal time period ,

had a higher tolerance to stressor chemicals,

when measured during early life.


Prenatal over exposure to chemical stressors over a period of time is very possible.

Resulting in a over sensitive infant twins,

who never shared the same post natal environment.


Also consider the emotional pain the twins would experience,

after sharing the same womb for 9 months ,

then the twins are separated from each other,

forever after birth.

That would be very emotionally stressful for any infant.








.

mildadhd
03-16-13, 02:28 AM
Nature and Nurture.


..Familial clustering, as reported in the article, cannot distinguish between potential genetic and environmental etiologies.

While the authors are careful to describe the new data as familial, they nevertheless discuss them only in the context of a genetic etiology.

However, the reported high prevalence of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder among the children of manifesting adults is also clearly consistent with an environmental etiology.

We do not dispute the important contribution is of personality and temperament to behavior or the plausibility of a genetic component to attention deficit hyperactivity disorder.

However, we are concerned that the failure to consider potential environmental factors adds to the tendency to treat attention deficit hyperactivity disorder as an
exclusively neurological disorder that is to be treated solely through medication.

http://www.neuro.psychiatryonline.org/data/Journals/AJP/3659/451a.pdf



Diller, L., Tanner, J., & Weil, J. (1995). Etiology of ADHD: Nature or Nurture? [Letter to the editor]. American Journal of Psychiatry, 153.

SB_UK
03-16-13, 04:29 AM
However, we are concerned that the failure to consider potential environmental factors adds to the tendency to treat attention deficit hyperactivity disorder as an
exclusively neurological disorder that is to be treated solely through medication.

Sense at last.

SB_UK
03-16-13, 04:32 AM
Just plain getting confused now - is this idea mainstream now ?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17355398
We review a significant body of evidence from independent prospective studies that if a mother is stressed while pregnant, her child is substantially more likely to have emotional or cognitive problems, including an increased risk of attentional deficit/hyperactivity, anxiety, and language delay.
Animal models suggest that activity of the stress-responsive hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis and its hormonal end-product cortisol are involved in these effects in both mother and offspring. ... there is a strong correlation between maternal and fetal cortisol levels.

Need to find a link between post-natal depression in mother and ADHD in child - with post-natal depression as a marker for elevated cortisol levels in pregnancy ?

SB_UK
03-16-13, 04:38 AM
You reall have to hand it to medical research ... ... ...

... ...we found that postnatal depression was predictive of parent-reported ADHD.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21468666

SB_UK
03-16-13, 04:41 AM
It is suggested that extra vigilance or anxiety, readily distracted attention, or a hyper-responsive HPA axis may have been adaptive in a stressful environment during evolution, but exists today at the cost of vulnerability to neurodevelopmental disorders.This isn't quite true - it's not wrong - but there's something much more significant going on.
Stress hormone sensitivity (that type of hyper-vigilant behaviour associated with ADHD/the highly sensitive person) -

- is a sign of a shift in metabolism away from classical and into ketosis - as a more efficient, lower calorie requiring state - which is intended to maximise survival of child - in an environment which the 'stress' is signalling - indicates adverse external (ie lack of food availability) circumstances.

So - just straight stress sensitivity.

Back around to the idea of stress as leading to a positive adaption ... ... however - the positive adaption only goes so far.

So - what're the good stresses and what are the bad stresses ?

Simply examine the effects of various stresses on longevity.

Ketosis, intermittent fasting, large amounts of aerobic exercise, bursts of high intensity exercise, eating only greens/oil (stressful to many!) result in increased longevity in animal models

- however hierarchy (eg in the civil service in research by Marmot) - results in reduced longevity.

Key idea - good and bad stress.
The nature of a stress (as good or bad) can be nailed using epidemiology.
Good stresses increase longevity - bad stresses decrease life-span.

Accentuate the positive - eliminate the negative

... ... resulting simply in the conclusion that all disease and all of the problems the species suffers from
- arise through our current hierarchy-mandating societal infrastructure.

Collapse the agents of hierarchy (money + law) - and we'll eliminate disease.

SB_UK
03-16-13, 04:53 AM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21418379
While experimental data in Lig-offspring seem to be considerably biased, prenatal stress and postnatal overfeeding/rapid neonatal weight gain might be causally linked to a long-term deleterious outcome in growth restricted newborns.

[1] More efficient metabolism selecte for through pre-natal stress
[2] Increased desire for food (to favour survival)

But it all goes wrong - when child appears in a world where there's vast food availability.

S/he's been sculpted to live without food - and to chase food with vigour - being epigenetically sculpted into 'believing' that there's no food available in the world outside (the historical reason over life for a stressed gestational environment)

- only to find that there's plenty - s/he then (accordingly) eats ... ... and before you know it - full on Metabolic Syndrome.

A life from start to premature finish filled with pain.

SB_UK
03-16-13, 05:02 AM
What's the conclusion ?

ADHD is an evolutionarily selected for positive trait - which turns into a very negative trait in current society.
The same basic argument as used in 'The thrifty gene hypothesis'.

We need to apply the 'good' stresses and eliminate the 'bad' stresses across the board.

The good stresses 'll simply select for ADHD in a nice way - without disorder ... ... we'll experience a shift towards the more efficient metabolic profile of ADHD - with all of the health-promoting and longevity-promoting advantages which it provides
- but without the psych. stress (unmanageable) which turns the advantage into a disadvantage.

The bottom-line is that organisms with a mind - need to be able to align behaviour to morality.
There isn't any way for the mind to develop in any social scheme which requires inequality.

Inequality (human hierarchy) is immoral.

SB_UK
03-16-13, 05:14 AM
And finally ... ... noting the connection between ADHD and Syndrome X -

... to include the effect of low-carbohydrate meals [ketosis]: the disease states studied are generalized from traditional study of diabetes to include obesity and metabolic syndrome.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18370662

SB_UK
03-16-13, 05:15 AM
Take-home message - maximise the 'good' stresses - eliminate the 'bad' stresses.

Use epidemiology to define which is which.

Though it really is common sense.

Eat those greens (and little else !!!) whilst building a rational mind which knows morality.

Keep Satfat and Carb o'Hi from your door.

The devil.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSkSfsf1NIc3H4JLz0UJNjoHY5MFUFNQ kjmj4A0BZ4PuFqNDNyyrg

SB_UK
03-16-13, 05:19 AM
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSXESW0N2nf8DAxJipQjNF9VoVSSpZmt 0et9On2qLgYDKZhlgip <- metabolic syndrome

SB_UK
03-16-13, 05:23 AM
Eat those greens (and little else !!!) whilst building a rational mind which knows morality.
- within a societal context where others are doing the same

- *not* consistent with the maintenance of money and the subhuman legal system.

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQCoDlIK92i0KknRWJXSymypFyCtRLkq W2U-4sjIOFWHzeIMZGL

Look to the star (shaped head)
- the Buddhist vegan moral music-loving aerobic exercising strangely coloured prophet has the answer.
She isn't nor shall she ever be - motivated by money.
... ... just by the drive to do the right (moral) thing.

SB_UK
03-16-13, 05:59 AM
So - just 1 fundamental difference between ADDer and nonADDer.

Ketosis metabolism defined in ADDer type.
Sensitivity to blood glucose levels / stress hormone accordingly.
ADHD / ADD-I symptoms fired off when stressed (bad stress).

Core aetiology - altered metabolism requiring stress hormone sensitivity (we've blown past glucose elevation as our reward scheme)
Disorder triggered - by bad stress.

The disorder element of ADHD is entirely environmental/contextual.

Stress sensitivity is sensitive to stress.

Goal - eliminate bad stresses - maximise good stresses.

The fundamental bad stresses which lead to our disorder are simply related to being required to do the wrong thing (immorality).

Where the formation of human hierarchy through schemes (money and law) represents the fundamental problem
- and where it becomes clear why throughout history - it has been the struggle for equality/freedom (tied concepts) which represent the commonality between the various violent uprisings which have been seen through history.

Thing is - is that equality (absence of human hierarchy) can only be fixed by a global scheme.

One which eliminates money and law as the key factors in determining human functioning.

Money and law (ownership) necessitate human hierarchy - we can't maintain them and arrive, simultaneously, at a properly social environmental framework consistent with morality (that which we (ADDers particularly) need) - in order to stave off disorientating disorder.

SB_UK
03-16-13, 06:04 AM
Perhaps also to add (from Peripheral) that a sensitive system is able to obtain social reward (actual activation of our reward system) from social behaviour.

So - continuing on the post from above - of us blowing past blood glucose elevation for 'kicks' (into ketogenic metabolism)
- we're still required to get those 'kicks' (reward) from somewhere

- and exactly as is proven by the studies on the pair-bonding vole
- we're predisposed to getting our required reward from social behaviour.

The emergence of a social animal - ADD.

If we allow ourselves to be, by eliminating the current global societal infrastructure of inequality nece$$itated.

SB_UK
03-16-13, 06:06 AM
Not too sure that I can improve on this story.

It's complete.

SB_UK
03-16-13, 06:45 AM
Even more simply.

1. Timed to the point of inflection on the exponential phase of the human population growth curve uppawards is a speciation event which is gives rise to a new species - ADDer-type.

2. Sole difference between ADDer-type and previously is our reliance on ketogenic metabolism (ketogenic metabolism selected for reasons of increased survival likelihood).

3. This key change requires sensitivity to the metabolic hormones.

4. In the presence of excess stress - our sensitivity to these hormones is lost - and we experience tolerance / resistance syndromes.

5. The reward we're able to obtain from social interaction (see Peripheral/Panksepp) is lost and we're forced into using exogenous material world factors for reward; this blunts yet further our reward system - resulting in a negative spiral downwards to addiction.

6. This basic pattern describes the addictive personality ... ... the addictive personality is simply more sensitive (metabolically) - resulting in more readily developing tolerance/resistance - and becoming hooked on addictive substances.

However ... ...

7. Born in this state - we also must factor construction of mind (very easy to construct given just 1 basic model of a normal distribution with start, middle and end held together by resonance describing reality in its entirety) and pair-bond formation with partner, child ... ...

8. Trying to suggest that the tolerance/resistance which we're potentially born into can be overcome through mind and pair-bonding later on in life.

9. So - the combination of mind/pair-bonding results in the addictive propensity being actively shed and the restoration of a sensitive system in which social reward can activate our neurochemical needs.

We don't actually need to suffer any disorder through the switch to ketogenic-only metabolism - just need to change our environment such that we may access the appropriate foods, develop mind and pair-bond ... ... and we've a potentially sensitive system from day 1 conception to death - which survives from start to finish alongside a social reward scheme - which from start to finish is material world detached.

That is - that we can prevent the addictions (to the wrong foods, money, ownership, power) from occurring in the first place - and make the transition to a new species - without disorder and pain - from start to finish.

We do though need to eliminate systems which keep human hierarchies in place.

The hierarchies which aren't designed to assist people in climbing onto your back - and are instead concerned with keeping people down.

SB_UK
03-16-13, 06:51 AM
So - pair-bond completion (timed to the female menopause) can re-adjust us away from dependence (on material world factors) and into a state in which our boat is floated (exactly as seen in the pair bonding vole) - by virtue of nothing more than that pair-bond existing in place.

It appears that pair-bond formation appears to demand - in the years leading up to it - a kinda' ascetic honing of the sensitivity of the systems - that is - re-establishment of sensitivity which the pair-bond 'll 'seal' the deal through then activating (rewarding) the individual through.

Making this entire story (of all of human suffering) ... ... a love story - a love story in which love conquers all.

Ultimately - though - it needs a mechanism to operate - and that mechanism of love is (surprise surprise) through the 2 pleasure axes of dopaminergic and opioid systems - the two axes in which we find all of the illicit drugs of addiction.

SB_UK
03-16-13, 07:03 AM
No disorder on any level if we're all allowed to obtain food and shelter, develop mind and pair-bond without need to behave immorally (without anybody charging you) in/for the process.

Mother (of ADDer), then - will not be stressed - will not send kiddy down what could be the route to addiction.

So - it goes without saying that


a zero energy home for all is simple to envision,
that our lower food requirements (vegan low cal) are relatively simple to avail to all people,
that construction of mind can be performed by simply illustrating that one pattern of eg 3 fermions (in a normal distribution) to 1 boson across the abstraction layers,
... ... and where pair-bonding will of course, come naturally.

It's gotta' be that :giggle: simple.

I realise it shouldn't have taken quite so long :o to get to that conclusion.

-*-

Stress state (bad) addicts (tolerance/resistance) [in an entirely bad way] the (particularly) newly emergent population of ADDers; born addicted in an inhuman world of adverse psychosocial stress felt by all people within a hierarchical society.

Climbing out takes a little mind and a whole lotta' pair-bonding.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eOx3MBUS6k

SB_UK
03-16-13, 07:30 AM
A social organism (ADDer type) requires a flat structure.

Not negotiable.

Under a model of reality of autonomous assembly to complexity by pattern (creation, evolution) - there is no way for anything (any person) to consider themselves better than any other thing (and definitely person).

Chemistry isn't better than physics - just a little more evolved.

3x6 isn't better than 2x6.

SB_UK
03-16-13, 07:38 AM
The cure to all of our problems is a fair (equalizing) global societal infrastructure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unnatural_Causes:_Is_Inequality_Making_Us_Sick

ConcertaParent
04-11-13, 01:22 AM
What Dr. Barkley said is, "The knowledge your child possesses - what they know - is clearly a function of exposure in the environment but their traits, abilities, make-up and personality is not. So the idea that we design these kids and we can get rid of their ADHD needs to be abandoned."

While there is some correlation between the biological parent and child, the studies show that there is no correlation of traits with an adopted child. While adoptive parents can influence the child's environment and become good shepherds, they cannot engineer the ADHD or other inborn traits out of the child.
I disagree with Dr. Barkley that "there is no correlation, between any ADD trait and the adopted child and the people who raise them."

Tyler Durden
04-11-13, 08:00 AM
There are 2 perspectives, some people have the perspective of after the car crash and others are looking at the bigger picture, how such a car crash can be mitigated against or even prevented. These 2 perspectives need to both be understood. Barkley's concerns are ONLY after the car crash, and hence you cannot get the whole picture just by understanding Barkley.

There is no way that you can prove if anyone succeeded in "engineering adhd" as you put it, out of a child, as if this was really the case then nobody would be any the wiser, the disorder would likely not exist in the first place. Timing is crucial in development and prevention CANNOT be proved. We CANNOT go back in time, slightly alter environmental variables and test the outcome in behaviour to see how specific environmental variables alter genetic expression, unless you are testing the same genetics over and over again you will learn very little.

But a twin study is a population of 2, you are conducting 1 experiment using the same genetics twice, you are going to struggle to find anything conclusive from that. With another set of twins you are introducing a whole new set of environmental and genetic variables, it is a totally seperate experiment. If you bring up similar genetics that developed in a similar environment for the first 9 months then ofcourse there are going to be certain similar traits. This however in no way precludes the role of environmental stressors.

If you look at the bigger picture, Dr Barkley makes unnecessarily sweeping statements on the basis of ambiguous studies, but his motives are aligned with dealing with those after the car crash, not how such a car crash could be prevented, and that is where the tension arises. Dr Barkley is of the opinion that the car crash can in no way be mitigated against or prevented, the car crash is a foregone conclusion.

He therefore irrationally discounts environmental variables in the outcome to a large extent as they are of far less relevance after the car crash.

But discounting those variables has far reaching consequences, as you are not only affecting those who have had their car crashes, you are affecting those yet to have a car crash.

Yes there is a significant genetic component and there is a window of opportunity but the meaning of genetic influence is twisted as epigenetics are testament to expression is mutable and by definition they are responses to historical environments, not independent of them, and this is especially the case with behaviours that are DIRECT responses to environmental variables.

The humans genome developed over billions of years we have altered our environments drastically over the space of the last hundred or so years, the difference in time scale is massive, yet as now have the technology so we can create our own environments we can therefore also make environments that fit our genetics far more effectively and positively, disorders are effectively the result of a bad environmental fit.

Tyler Durden
04-11-13, 08:06 AM
Society has backwards priorities.

Mothers should be prioritized.
Human well being should be prioritized.

Instead it is the other way round, both are marginalized .

Mothers eat into profits with time off.
Employees eat into profits the better the conditions/pay etc they require.
etc.

All these factors are exacerbatory.

All of this adds up to a downward spiral, the neglect of mothers and children, and the development of an increasing number of mental disorders, the problem will only get worse in such a system, the question is how do you reverse the trend.

Additionally you get factors such as

Products eat into profits the better their quality (therefore inferior quality)
Repeat purchases are REQUIRED (therefore planned obsolenscence,
temporary 'cures'/maintenance/ infinite demand creates profit,

permanent solutions to the problem you profit from must be prevented AT ALL COSTS.
etc. etc.

You do not solve a problem such as this by ignoring the reason it exists in the first place.

You do not solve a problem like this by attempting to describe it in detail in the way Dr Barkley does.

You solve a problem like this by understanding WHY the problem exists in the first place and understanding how to mitigate and ideally prevent it.

But prevention that cannot be easily proven has no a profit motivation, it is in fact counter intuitive to a profit motive, and there you have your catch 22.

mildadhd
04-11-13, 11:58 PM
What Dr. Barkley said is, "The knowledge your child possesses - what they know - is clearly a function of exposure in the environment but their traits, abilities, make-up and personality is not. So the idea that we design these kids and we can get rid of their ADHD needs to be abandoned."

While there is some correlation between the biological parent and child, the studies show that there is no correlation of traits with an adopted child. While adoptive parents can influence the child's environment and become good shepherds, they cannot engineer the ADHD or other inborn traits out of the child.


What time period of brain development are you discussing about?

mildadhd
04-13-13, 01:36 PM
What Dr. Barkley said is, "The knowledge your child possesses - what they know - is clearly a function of exposure in the environment but their traits, abilities, make-up and personality is not. So the idea that we design these kids and we can get rid of their ADHD needs to be abandoned."

While there is some correlation between the biological parent and child, the studies show that there is no correlation of traits with an adopted child. While adoptive parents can influence the child's environment and become good shepherds, they cannot engineer the ADHD or other inborn traits out of the child.

Hello,

What are the "ADHD or other inborn traits" that you are discussing about? Could you or Dr.Barkley provide some evidence of these "ADHD inborn traits"?

midnightstar
04-13-13, 03:18 PM
In answer to the OP, I don't think it should rule them out (whether it actually does or not I don't know because I'm not clever enough to know), all I can do is post my understanding of it. As far as I understand, they take abnormal stressors into account because in order to get an accurate understanding they need to take everything into account.

This is merely my understanding, if I'm wrong then I'm wrong and I don't mind getting corrected :)

mctavish23
04-13-13, 04:54 PM
THIS IS ABSURD.

How can you REALLY know if it does or not, without reading the bloody research first ?

This is like trying to create your own alternative reality, based on an internet poll.

The world, and the scientific method, doesn't work that way.

mctavish23

(Robert)

malaka
04-13-13, 05:09 PM
I totally agree with mctavish23

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlNw5ZuDYsk

Tyler Durden
04-13-13, 05:54 PM
THIS IS ABSURD.

How can you REALLY know if it does or not, without reading the bloody research first ?

This is like trying to create your own alternative reality, based on an internet poll.

The world, and the scientific method, doesn't work that way.

mctavish23

(Robert)

Some of us are growing weary of this same tired old rhetoric.

Believe it or not most people posting on this forum have more than likely read at least some research.

WHAT SPECIFIC RESEARCH ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

Not once have you linked to some conclusive piece of evidence, or some some supposedly conclusive study you seem to purport to exist.

Please stop saying "read the research" and actually link the research you are speaking of for once.

'Put your money where your mouth is', so to speak.

Lunacie
04-13-13, 06:14 PM
Some of us are growing weary of this same tired old rhetoric.

Believe it or not most people posting on this forum have more than likely read at least some research.

WHAT SPECIFIC RESEARCH ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

Not once have you linked to some conclusive piece of evidence, or some some supposedly conclusive study you seem to purport to exist.

Please stop saying "read the research" and actually link the research you are speaking of for once.

'Put your money where your mouth is', so to speak.

It doesn't matter who posts what research - you say it's not good enough.
I think you're being told to look for the research yourself since you're the
only one who knows what you're actually looking for.

Tyler Durden
04-13-13, 06:17 PM
It doesn't matter who posts what research - you say it's not good enough.
I think you're being told to look for the research yourself since you're the
only one who knows what you're actually looking for.

I'll make this easy not to misinterpret then.

What is this research that is capable of ruling out environmental stressors?

Please provide a link.

It really is VERY simple.

If the research is not sufficient to rule out environmental stressors then i will say so, if it is then brilliant we have an answer!

I am not going to just accept conclusions based on flimsy or significantly ambiguous evidence.

Lunacie
04-13-13, 06:28 PM
That's right, it's very simple. Look for and read some research yourself.

People have posted links and you've dismissed them as worthless without
even reading them. I don't know if anyone will go to the bother anymore.

Tyler Durden
04-13-13, 06:29 PM
That's right, it's very simple. Look for and read some research yourself.

People have posted links and you've dismissed them as worthless without
even reading them. I don't know if anyone will go to the bother anymore.

Where are the links in this thread?

The reason this thread exists is because people are looking for just ONE adoption twin study that manages to rule out environmental stressors.

But not ONE link has been given to support that it can.

Do you not understand how this does not really support an answer of "YES".

It is nothing more than an opinion without the science to back it up.

Yet 3 people decided to answer "YES" without providing any justification.

There is no doubt SOME more obvious/less ambiguous environmental variables will be able to be discounted, but the question is can it completely RULE OUT abnormal environmental stressors.

Tyler Durden
04-13-13, 06:53 PM
Epigenetic effects are more similar in identical twins than fraternal twins.

Lunacie
04-13-13, 06:54 PM
I just took a few minutes to browse back through this thread as I didn't
remember the OP asking for more than yes/no and maybe a discussion.
The reason I didn't remember it was because it's just not there.

There was no demand from the OP to provide any "justification" for
personal opinions.

immabum
04-13-13, 07:06 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Study_of_Identical_Twins_Reared_Apart
http://web.archive.org/web/20120227061723/http://www.psych.umn.edu/courses/spring05/hicksb/psy3135/bouchard_1990.pdf

Do I get a cookie?
Can I take a little credit for your
"I do understand that epigenetic influence is possibly of less significance than I would have presumed" in the other epic thread? Haha jk ...it was fun :)

Oh. Personally I avoided this section before 'theoretical/philosophical' ...but since the the party got shot down in the other forum- I had to find where everyone went!

Tyler Durden
04-13-13, 07:13 PM
I think you get cookies every time you log on to a site, enjoy! :)

Can you explain how epigenetic effects can be identified or ruled out as I see no reference there? (using a quick word search)

n.b. Emphasis on the word POSSIBLY!

immabum
04-13-13, 07:47 PM
Oh I just wanted a cookie for posting a link to an article.
Bonus cookie for an article talking about how twins reared apart ended up with similar personality traits.

-I already talked about the inconsistency of measuring DNA methylation patterns,no current standards/moving target analogy in our other thread. Don't use a word search -use your memory of our previous discussions (well...sorry we all got a bit side tracked-but it's in there)

immabum
04-13-13, 07:54 PM
I don't think anyone here is ruling out epigenetic effects. As I mentioned before its a n interaction effect from both the env and genes, so it would take a percentage from both. Eg instead of 80/20 gene:env it could be 70/15/15 gene/epigene/env -also with changing proportions according to age.

Tyler Durden
04-13-13, 07:54 PM
I do remember you saying it, but i did not understand what you meant, you are saying methylation and histone modification cannot be effectively measured because they are "moving"?

immabum
04-13-13, 07:59 PM
Remember my serum sodium level analogy? It's not a stagnant number in our body. It changes daily.
Well you're really into this stuff. Just read up on the feasibility/consistently of it being tested on a large scale. If you have, you already know the issues of degradation/methylation shifts/lab standard differences etc right?

I just skimmed the previous pages and I remember why I avoided this section. See ya on the science side :)

Tyler Durden
04-13-13, 08:03 PM
Let me get this straight...

You are saying genes are constantly being turned off and amplified?

Would there not be a way to measure the deviation?

The way i see it is alterations in genetics must occur via epigenetic processes, which is why i figure this should be the focus, everyone has a single ancestor etc. ( i just remembered why i mentioned the living fossils!)

mctavish23
04-13-13, 08:33 PM
REALLY ? What Research ?

The research referred to, on the twin studies which form the base for the study of the

effects of the environment on ADHD. You know the same one's that have been ignored

by both you and the OP, yet continue to be superficially alluded to in multiple threads;

yet never actually read ? THOSE DATA.

tc

mctavish23

(Robert)

namazu
04-13-13, 08:39 PM
Let me get this straight...

You are saying genes are constantly being turned off and amplified?

Would there not be a way to measure the deviation?
This kind of thing has actually been done in some situations, for example in looking at different cancers.

However, to my knowledge, it generally requires taking tissue samples from the affected area, since different cells in the body (despite sharing the same basic DNA, unless there are de novo mutations) have different epigenetic profiles.

I'm not sure it would be very easy to take brain tissue samples...

For some proteins, it may [?] be possible to look at the expression levels using, say, fluorescent dyes and some sort of imaging system, but that wouldn't necessarily help pinpoint where a possible epigenetic change is occurring (in the gene(s) for the protein? in regulatory genes elsewhere? in some precursor?).

It would be cool to be able to look at epigenetic changes in real-time.

As for the comment re: alterations in genetics occurring via epigenetic processes... There's limited evidence at this point of cross-generational transmission of epigenetic markers.

However, there is ample evidence of differences in allele frequency (i.e. genetic sequences itself) that are believed to be related to selective pressures in different populations. (For example, the often-used example of sickle-cell alleles in populations with ancestry in malaria-endemic areas.)

But it does seem plausible (almost certain) that some genotypes may be more or less susceptible than other genotypes to particular forms of epigenetic modification under different kinds of environmental conditions, and I would think that could contribute to fitness at the phenotypic level, so in that sense, it may be possible for epigenetic effects to mediate (in part) the natural selection of certain genotypes. I'll have to see what I can dig up about this.

Tyler Durden
04-13-13, 08:45 PM
REALLY ? What Research ?

The research referred to, on the twin studies which form the base for the study of the

effects of the environment on ADHD. You know the same one's that have been ignored

by both you and the OP, yet continue to be superficially alluded to in multiple threads;

yet never actually read ? THOSE DATA.

tc

mctavish23

(Robert)

Still no epigenetic reference?

Some friendly advice.

Maybe if instead of repeating the same thing over and over again (which must get tiring), you could just save yourself further time and trouble and just insert the link?

Tyler Durden
04-13-13, 09:01 PM
This kind of thing has actually been done in some situations, for example in looking at different cancers.

However, to my knowledge, it generally requires taking tissue samples from the affected area, since different cells in the body (despite sharing the same basic DNA, unless there are de novo mutations) have different epigenetic profiles.

I'm not sure it would be very easy to take brain tissue samples...

For some proteins, it may [?] be possible to look at the expression levels using, say, fluorescent dyes and some sort of imaging system, but that wouldn't necessarily help pinpoint where a possible epigenetic change is occurring (in the gene(s) for the protein? in regulatory genes elsewhere? in some precursor?).

It would be cool to be able to look at epigenetic changes in real-time.

As for the comment re: alterations in genetics occurring via epigenetic processes... There's limited evidence at this point of cross-generational transmission of epigenetic markers.

However, there is ample evidence of differences in allele frequency (i.e. genetic sequences itself) that are believed to be related to selective pressures in different populations. (For example, the often-used example of sickle-cell alleles in populations with ancestry in malaria-endemic areas.)

But it does seem plausible (almost certain) that some genotypes may be more or less susceptible than other genotypes to particular forms of epigenetic modification under different kinds of environmental conditions, and I would think that could contribute to fitness at the phenotypic level, so in that sense, it may be possible for epigenetic effects to mediate (in part) the natural selection of certain genotypes. I'll have to see what I can dig up about this.

Thankyou Namazu, that all makes sense! i generally have a 'macro' view of things not particularly well suited to certain aspects of biology, Richard Dawkins was probably the only real biology influence i had before coming on the forum, it is good for me to learn from those more knowledgable in this area such as yourself, i find I tend mix influences from different disciplines but that can also sometimes be a benefit in some regards.

immabum
04-13-13, 09:35 PM
Let me get this straight...

You are saying genes are constantly being turned off and amplified?

Would there not be a way to measure the deviation?

The way i see it is alterations in genetics must occur via epigenetic processes, which is why i figure this should be the focus, everyone has a single ancestor etc. ( i just remembered why i mentioned the living fossils!)

Oh Tyler...come on now. You're talking to a guy with a science background.
Of course I'm not saying that. Gene expression (turning on/off) happens all the time. You go on a low iron diet -you're iron related gene expression is going to change. Anyways 2nd cookie for me!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2964366/

You can word search the line "Epigenetic modifications are variable and depend on cell type, differentiation state and hormonal and environmental conditions.4 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2964366/#b4-0350366) In other words, every individual neuron could have distinct patterns of DNA methylation or histone modification in their genome"

Thats what I mean by moving target.


In regards to the focus of research...i'm kind of confused, seeing as in the other genetic thread the 'epigenetic consortium' was bashing my interest in DNA testing and specific alleles -yet epigenetic research wants to know which genes are methylated/activated/silenced. So you can't really have the best of both worlds. Are you interested in deducing the genes responsible for ADHD? Or do you only care about measuring the pattern/quantity of methylation? I'm guessing you care about 'gene expression' -which you can't really understand until you know which genes are affected first. Then you can look at the inherent mechanisms that modulate that expression---THEN you can further refine it by looking at methylation patterns and wondering why this 'adjusts the adjuster' (you can google gene expression regulation)

We already discussed its significantly reduced relevance to us (as adults) vs childhood. So ya....maybe thats why people aren't jumping up and down over this.

Tyler Durden
04-13-13, 09:55 PM
Oh Tyler...come on now. You're talking to a guy with a science background.
Of course I'm not saying that. Gene expression (turning on/off) happens all the time. You go on a low iron diet -you're iron related gene expression is going to change. Anyways 2nd cookie for me!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2964366/

You can word search the line "Epigenetic modifications are variable and depend on cell type, differentiation state and hormonal and environmental conditions.4 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2964366/#b4-0350366) In other words, every individual neuron could have distinct patterns of DNA methylation or histone modification in their genome"

Thats what I mean by moving target.


In regards to the focus of research...i'm kind of confused, seeing as in the other genetic thread the 'epigenetic consortium' was bashing my interest in DNA testing and specific alleles -yet epigenetic research wants to know which genes are methylated/activated/silenced. So you can't really have the best of both worlds. Are you interested in deducing the genes responsible for ADHD? Or do you only care about measuring the pattern/quantity of methylation? I'm guessing you care about 'gene expression' -which you can't really understand until you know which genes are affected first. Then you can look at the inherent mechanisms that modulate that expression---THEN you can further refine it by looking at methylation patterns and wondering why this 'adjusts the adjuster' (you can google gene expression regulation)

We already discussed its significantly reduced relevance to us (as adults) vs childhood. So ya....maybe thats why people aren't jumping up and down over this.


Great Link, thanks!

Yeh we had slightly different perspectives on things, but i think we resolved our differences, generally I am not so concerned with consequences for myself, more so future generations.

I never got a chance to read that thread you will have to link it to me.

(now to finish reading the link)

mildadhd
04-13-13, 11:19 PM
REALLY ? What Research ?

The research referred to, on the twin studies which form the base for the study of the

effects of the environment on ADHD. You know the same one's that have been ignored

by both you and the OP, yet continue to be superficially alluded to in multiple threads;

yet never actually read ? THOSE DATA.

tc

mctavish23

(Robert)


Seriously McTavish?

Being totally honest.

I am having a really hard time understanding your approach to discussing the topics,

over the last few thread topics?

And am having a hard time focusing when I try and read many of your posts?

I am still blown away by what you think I read,

and what haven't read?

Are you a professional mind reader to?

Maybe I missed the posts?

Could you provide some links , post # or something?

I do miss posts sometimes,

I was really busy this past week.

And wasn't around much.

Being the Opening Poster you are referring to,

could you clarify what information I missed so I can get back to you with a reply?

.

ConcertaParent
04-14-13, 09:50 AM
Thanks for the study links. I found out the hard way that despite much better environmental conditions, early interventions and two loving parents, our adopted child continues to have the ~30% developmental delay typical of ADHD.
The relevance of the studies pertained to the importance of heredity as a determining factor in shaping our physical appearance, mental acuteness, preferences, personal characteristics, and personality. Researchers found the similarities between twins raised in separate homes with different parents to be remarkably strong. The research gives significant weight to the importance of genetics as a key factor in determining physical appearance and attributes, as well as personalities and inherent abilities. This research has inferred correlations for all children raised outside their genealogical, biological, and ancestral groupings.
:
Children who are orphaned, fostered, or adopted may have certain behavior or inheritable traits activated by certain environmental factors or adopted parents, but only within the limitations of their genes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Study_of_Identical_Twins_Reared_Apart
http://web.archive.org/web/20120227061723/http://www.psych.umn.edu/courses/spring05/hicksb/psy3135/bouchard_1990.pdf

Tyler Durden
04-14-13, 11:03 AM
The child also inherits environmental/epigenetic traits from the BIRTH mother.

This is where the confusion comes in.

"heredity" is not a well defined term. (officially it is solely genetics)

The presentation of genes is defined by environmental factors.

Presentation is all that really matters.

As there are environmental / epigenetic components to all genetics it is logical to assume there are also potential points of intervention.

AnneSoCal
04-14-13, 11:04 AM
Thanks for the study links. I found out the hard way that despite much better environmental conditions, early interventions and two loving parents, our adopted child continues to have the ~30% developmental delay typical of ADHD.

I'm also the parent of an adopted child with AHDH-PI. He's been with us since he was born (we took him home from the hosptial). He's now 14, just recently diagnosed as ADHD-PI and has been in a stable, loving home from day one. Good neighborhood, very good schools, lots of family nearby and pretty much the same lifestyle as his peers.

Now, since we did an open adoption, I have a LOT of information on his biological family. He has two full siblings, one of whom is autistic and one who is, how should I put this....a pot head. His birthmother is college-educated, single (although all three boys have the same birthfather) and from what I could tell, a pretty nice woman in an unfortunate situation.

Our son's birthmother was not married to the birthfather and went through a lot of stress during her pregnancy. I've often wondered how those nine months of stress affected my son and his pre-natal development.

Aside from his ADHD-PI, he is a very well-adjusted kid with a very close group of friends, plays basketball, has a great sense of humor and is just a "normal" kid. I don't know if his ADHD is due to environmental factors (i.e., being adopted, our parenting skills, etc.) or genetic factors (stressed out mom, autistic sibling, etc.), and I honestly don't care. All I know is that we were lucky enough to become his parents and my husband and I will always do whatever we can to make sure he's happy and sucessful, including accepting the ADHD diagnosis and dealing with it and helping him in every way any parent would.

Lunacie
04-14-13, 11:44 AM
I'm also the parent of an adopted child with AHDH-PI. He's been with us since he was born (we took him home from the hosptial). He's now 14, just recently diagnosed as ADHD-PI and has been in a stable, loving home from day one. Good neighborhood, very good schools, lots of family nearby and pretty much the same lifestyle as his peers.

Now, since we did an open adoption, I have a LOT of information on his biological family. He has two full siblings, one of whom is autistic and one who is, how should I put this....a pot head. His birthmother is college-educated, single (although all three boys have the same birthfather) and from what I could tell, a pretty nice woman in an unfortunate situation.

Our son's birthmother was not married to the birthfather and went through a lot of stress during her pregnancy. I've often wondered how those nine months of stress affected my son and his pre-natal development.

Aside from his ADHD-PI, he is a very well-adjusted kid with a very close group of friends, plays basketball, has a great sense of humor and is just a "normal" kid. I don't know if his ADHD is due to environmental factors (i.e., being adopted, our parenting skills, etc.) or genetic factors (stressed out mom, autistic sibling, etc.), and I honestly don't care. All I know is that we were lucky enough to become his parents and my husband and I will always do whatever we can to make sure he's happy and sucessful, including accepting the ADHD diagnosis and dealing with it and helping him in every way any parent would.

Parenting does not CAUSE ADHD. It can make it more or less severe though.
At this point, genetics seems to be the most probable cause of ADHD, but
stress can also play a part in how severe the impairment is.

Have you had a chance to read through the information in Dizfriz's Corner? (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60130) It's a great resource.

mildadhd
04-14-13, 12:51 PM
I'm also the parent of an adopted child with AHDH-PI. He's been with us since he was born (we took him home from the hosptial). He's now 14, just recently diagnosed as ADHD-PI and has been in a stable, loving home from day one. Good neighborhood, very good schools, lots of family nearby and pretty much the same lifestyle as his peers.

Now, since we did an open adoption, I have a LOT of information on his biological family. He has two full siblings, one of whom is autistic and one who is, how should I put this....a pot head. His birthmother is college-educated, single (although all three boys have the same birthfather) and from what I could tell, a pretty nice woman in an unfortunate situation.

Our son's birthmother was not married to the birthfather and went through a lot of stress during her pregnancy. I've often wondered how those nine months of stress affected my son and his pre-natal development.

Aside from his ADHD-PI, he is a very well-adjusted kid with a very close group of friends, plays basketball, has a great sense of humor and is just a "normal" kid. I don't know if his ADHD is due to environmental factors (i.e., being adopted, our parenting skills, etc.) or genetic factors (stressed out mom, autistic sibling, etc.), and I honestly don't care. All I know is that we were lucky enough to become his parents and my husband and I will always do whatever we can to make sure he's happy and sucessful, including accepting the ADHD diagnosis and dealing with it and helping him in every way any parent would.


I would describe myself a lot like your son.

The intention of this thread is to understand abnormally stressful circumstances that may be involved.

I was not diagnosed til I was 35.

Before I knew what ADD was I developed lots of my own ways of coping with ADD.

As I get older some physical coping mechanisms I used successfully, are not an option any more. (arthritis)

And understanding how stress effects me and how my brain works really is helping me develop new coping mechanisms.

I also think understanding how abnormal stressors may have affected my early brain development before I was born is important to be aware of,

helping me understand from a physiological perspective.

I am happy to hear you considered stressful circumstances in the adoption before birth.

My understanding is that it is possible for prenatal exposure to abnormal chemical stressors,

can have a role in the development ADD.

Imagine what yours son's ADD might be like if he was not lucky enough to be adopted into your open minded loving home/family at birth.

I was very lucky to have had similar circumstances as your son.

Awesome stuff, I am very happy for him and your family.

.

mildadhd
04-14-13, 01:17 PM
Thanks for the study links. I found out the hard way that despite much better environmental conditions, early interventions and two loving parents, our adopted child continues to have the ~30% developmental delay typical of ADHD.

Concerta Parent,

It is possible that stressor chemicals on the biological mother had a role in your child brain development before birth.

There is also other possibilites like epigenetic factors that where pasted on from previous generations, etc.

Parents aware that ADD children are stress sensitive is meant for educational purposes.

Nobody is recommending trying to engineer the ADD out of the child.

I am recommending to be aware of a stress sensitive child for treatment purposes.

I think it is so important.

The 30% rule is a guide,

but under the right conditions,

some people with ADD can even excel or at least have a easier go of things.

It is all about awareness.

If I have ever made you feel like I was blaming you for your child ADD,

I would like you point out the fact so I can rephrase my words.

It is important to be aware of the affects chemical stressors can cause.

sarek
04-14-13, 03:32 PM
We've had to intervene in this thread again. One more warning to keep your responses strictly factual.
If that proves impossible this thread will be permanently closed.