View Full Version : What truly frightens me about the "environment" we live in


mctavish23
03-16-13, 11:34 PM
INTRO :

Greetings. I hope I got your "attention" on this one (no pun intended),

because this subject is truly frightening to me; personally and professionally.

I know we've been talking about "environmental" factors and ADHD, so I'm

certain this will invoke many excellent responses.

I mentioned this briefly a while back (?), in a similar discussion, but it was

only in passing, and no one seemed to pick up on it. so here goes ...

(THREAD TOPIC) :

WHAT TRULY FRIGHTENS ME ABOUT THE "ENVIRONMENT" WE LIVE IN IS ...

THE EFFECT OF TECHNOLOGY ON (RE-WIRING) THE HUMAN BRAIN.

I first encountered this at the MN Psych Association's Annual Convention

several years ago, and it scared the hell out of me. Since then, I've read

several mainstream magazine articles, with similar professional references.

Here are the one's I just brought home from the office, so hopefully ya'll

will check these out for yourselves :

Scientifc American (August / September 2006) "THE TEEN BRAIN;"

National Geographic (Oct. 2011) "THE NEW SCIENCE OF THE TEENAGE BRAIN;"

Newsweek (July 16,2012) "I CRAZY."

What you'll find, and this should not come as any great surprise, is that the

tremendous impact of technology, is reportedly being found to actually "re-

wire" adolescent brain circuitry. Keep in mind, this is NOT my area of

expertise, but it makes (common) sense to me.

Knowing the level of sophistication among FORUM members, I'm hoping for an

excellent discussion. Meanwhile, I've saved my MPA notes (somewhere) in my

office, and will (try) and look for them.

Thanks for taking the time to consider this thread.

tc

mctavish23

(Robert)

ana futura
03-16-13, 11:50 PM
Ooh, great subject! I do think technology has "rewired" me to an extent. I grew up without the internet, I first had it in my home around age 21. I think the more exposure I have to it, the harder it is for me to maintain external motivation. Why try to stimulate my brain with enriching activities, when clicking on things all day long gives me such satisfaction? The same goes for cell phones and IM. Before those things it was nintendo.

The sense of reward I get from true accomplishement pales in comparison to the instant gratification I get from clicking on things constantly.

My father without a doubt had ADHD, but he was much more economically and educationally successful than I have been. I often wonder if it's because he grew up without the simple distractions I have become addicted to. Later in life he discovered tetris, and he became a full blown addict- spending hours a day playing it. I bet if he had grown up today, he would have accomplished far less in his life.

It's not just that the time spent in the virtual world robs you of time in real life, it's that the more time you spend there, the less satisfying real life becomes.

Drewbacca
03-17-13, 01:31 AM
Internet = ADHD Hamster Wheel. I can't find escape velocity... the environment may not have caused *MY* ADHD (I can't speak for yours, but I'm sure someone will) but it certainly has made it nearly impossible to deal with.

mildadhd
03-17-13, 01:40 AM
What you'll find, and this should not come as any great surprise, is that the

tremendous impact of technology, is reportedly being found to actually "re-

wire" adolescent brain circuitry.

-McTavish





I would start the discussion by understanding the SEEKING System.




(Approx. Video Timeline 1:33)

..The infant has a urge to explore the world,

reaching out, if there is something interesting,

like a mobile, starts playing with it,

it's the SEEKING System that does all that activity.. -Prof. Jaak Panksepp

(See video link below)




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5smTLCKkUA4[/QUOTE]

Rebelyell
03-17-13, 01:49 AM
advanced offshoot of MK ULTRA /Monarch program?

SB_UK
03-17-13, 07:03 AM
I think the point that this summary from the other thread we've running currently, is:

http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1459823&postcount=64

In summary then
We can eliminate stress and think clearly given the context of a moral global societal infrastructure.
If we don't - then all of the 'things' we think about drive the stress response.
If we've a moral global societal infrastructure - then we can settle in logically/morally consistent daydream state thinking, representing a meditative stress-less state - in which the fruits of our thought may be translated into action.
Currently - the drive is in sending the globally logical/moral mind into the daydream/dissociative state (where it doesn't think) for reasons of stress-relief.
However - it's not that it can't think in this state - it's that the globally logical/moral mind cannot find any solutions to the problems which're reported in a logically flawed societal infrastructure - and armed with the knowledge of this fact - forces itself into silence.
We're not (in this current world) dissociating to think (as we may do) - but dissociating not to think - for thinking can't get us out of the mess we're in.
All that can get us out of the current mess - is a new global societal infrastructure where the material world is shared between all of us.
In this land of equality - we'll be able to use our mind in daydream state ... ... to (and simply) make it better.- is that what is truly frightening (causes the stress response) in people with or tending towards a mind which is globally logically consistent - in a societal infrastructure which is fatally flawed - is everything.

-*-

Very simply - there isn't a thought which global logical consistency can have in this current world which does not fail to elicit stress.

Currently playing in my mind:
[1] How do I fix a motherboard with problems occurring in individual components ? <- stress (financial concern)
[2] How do I assess heat output from graphics cards to get a computer which is less likely to fall apart ? <- stress (discovering info which may not be discoverable)
[3] But why not get used to throwaway culture and getting a new computer every 2 years <- stress (environmental concerns)
[4] But why not throw away my computer <- stress (life (with kids that like computer games) has become computer dependent)

All of these problems are solved by having a robust computer where the server/network perform all of the heavy lifting, where there's just 1 motherboard built with a machine (communal) which allows us to perform component exchanges, where we can recycle 100% of the components if required, where we're all able to access one of these low component machines for nothing, where we simultaneously eliminate the escalation in OS and computer languages - since only 1 of each is necessary.

IE by prevention of the problems (eg [1-4]) from appearing in the first place.
The problem with the completed mind of ADHD is that it feels pain in engaging itself in any solution to a problem which doesn't actually (won't ever) work; the completed ADHD mind simply can't motivate to 'solutions' which worsen the overall problem.

No mind should be able to ... ... but, of course, human beings don't actually have a mind, until the transition to wisdom - which cannot (if it does ever) occur prior to middle age.

SB_UK
03-17-13, 07:13 AM
When using the mind in thought elicits a stress reaction - regardless of what one thinks about ... ... then there's a significant motivation to re-orientate society into a form where painful stress is not fired off - so readily - by virtue of existence and use of mind.

There's only 1 way to do this - to generate a global village where equality is enshrined and where wage slavery is (accordingly) eliminated.

That's all.

All that Internet technology represents is quicker than average access to information.
It's just a filing cabinet which we can all access simultaneously - saves us the bother of having to pop to the local library.

It's simply accelerating the rate at which we can construct a globally logically consistent mind - and so is a good thing.

However - it's the globally logically consistent mind which changes society accordingly - and then (the individual) happy - which is the point.

The point is to be happy - and this is prevented by life in a society in which through money and law - (human) hierarchy is maintained.

SB_UK
03-17-13, 07:25 AM
Just to re-iterate - I could post 10,000 (the first 10,000 ideas) which come to mind - all of which cause stress - over a few minutes.

They would all be solved by generation of global village without money/legal system (ownership) and in which hierarchy in ownership of the physical world is banished.

-*-

Underlying ADHD is a new metabolic system which is predisposed to ketosis.
The change requires hormonal sensitivity to be retained.
Cortisol is one of the hormones which sensitivity is definedd to.
This sensitivity is particularly easy to disrupt (standard negative feeback) - where stress disruption of the ROFC appears to be key in ADDer kid being born to the 'hunger'.

The basic change (to favouring ketosis) is a good thing.
The 'hunger' which is developed through stress hormone exposure in the stress sensitive - is completely avoidable.

Given a properly human societal infrastructure which doesn't result in stress (stress hormone) from being so readily expressed.

And back around we come to ... ...

They would all be solved by generation of global village without money/legal system (ownership) and in which hierarchy in ownership of the physical world is banished.

SB_UK
03-17-13, 07:28 AM
We (particularly ADDers) are predisposed to life in a flat structure.

Technology is the great equalizer - because it helps people (if they choose to use it as we do) - to understand the world around them - (a fast track into completion of mind) -
- from which point people are able to see the logic to the need for global societal restructuring -
and support it.

In fact - can do nothing else with their time other than make it happen.

Support restructuring of society globally - game over - live life morally - avoid stress - be happy.

For 'to be happy is the point to life'.

-*-

The constant arousal of the ADDer (completed mind) - when thinking - is unavoidable - since all considerations are logically stressful - in the absence of a fair societal infrastructure.

-*-

So inherited character - evolutionarily selected more efficient metabolism (blood glucose/stress hormone sensitivity).
Stress exposure to stress hormone sensitivity deranges reward system.
More sensitive ADDer child driven into addiction.
Solution:
They would all be solved by generation of global village without money/legal system (ownership) and in which hierarchy in ownership of the physical world is banished.

TygerSan
03-17-13, 10:01 AM
The thing that I find fascinating is the advent of 3-D technogy like TVs and gaming systems. The Nintendo 3Ds has a warning on it to limit time for children under 6.

I can't help but wonder what research says about binocular vision development between, say, 3 and 6.

Amtram
03-17-13, 10:03 AM
To get back to what mctavish was actually talking about, it's definitely a concern, but I don't know for certain if it's limited only to the developing teenage brain. Each generation has its own new technology (new clothes, new music, new fads and interestest) but we're aware of technology because, I think, it has advanced so quickly.

Those of us who grew up without it, but still find ourselves overly engrossed in it, can see that in some cases the predilection for "re-wiring" already exists. We're focusing on it because we were looking for an entertaining timesuck anyway.

As for teens, I'm not entirely sure that the dependence on technology is 100% as detrimental as a lot of us old farts may think. It's a completely different way of relating to the world and to other people from what we've had in the past, but so was every new form of communication. The kids who get totally absorbed in the technology to the exclusion of the outside world get a lot of press, but I see my teens and their friends using it to augment their social interactions rather than replace them. They actually spend more time socializing with the people they know in real life via technology than they would without it.

This isn't to say that we shouldn't be concerned about the people for whom technology addiction is a problem. That problem is real. But if all of a generation is being shaped by a change like this, then it's in line with the normal course of societal change. Just because we don't like it doesn't mean it's bad!

mildadhd
03-17-13, 10:17 AM
QUOTE=TygerSan

I can't help but wonder what research says about binocular vision development between, say, 3 and 6.


Thanks, interesting stuff, I haven't studied binocular vision before.

Although I remembered the words in this chart, (when I read your post).

According to this chart about the critical time of development, binocular vision peaks and wanes around the age of 3.

(The chart gives a good idea, although, I have seen more up to date charts but I can't find them at the moment,

if anyone might know of more up to date information or additional information on the topics is also appreciated)


http://www.aare.edu.au/01pap/Image57.gif


.

dvdnvwls
03-17-13, 11:40 AM
They would all be solved by generation of global village without money/legal system (ownership) and in which hierarchy in ownership of the physical world is banished.

Maybe - if that pipe-dream was accessible in the first place - but that's politics and not really addressing the effect of computers on people's lives.

SB_UK
03-17-13, 11:46 AM
Maybe - if that pipe-dream was accessible in the first place - but that's politics and not really addressing the effect of computers on people's lives.

'Snow crash virus' explains how.
by Neal Stephenson.

Given global economic system crash (imminent) - there will be no technology to consider.

The economic pages of the key papers over the last 5 years describe this collapse.

SB_UK
03-17-13, 11:49 AM
The book describes how 'an idea' may change the human mind - in a way that the individual is unable to resist.

The idea translated to this current point in our evolutionary journey - is that there's no point in anything human beings do until a flat structure of equality (see Chomsky on anarchy) is accepted as the global governing paradigm.

But you could always sequence the gene of the lesser spotted parakeet and expect that to result in an end to suffering.

dvdnvwls
03-17-13, 12:01 PM
This is all still politics - would you be willing to talk about what this thread is about instead?

SB_UK
03-17-13, 01:45 PM
This is all still politics - would you be willing to talk about what this thread is about instead?

Post 14 explains the effects of tech on mind by way of a book written by a science fiction author.

Post 15 translates Neal Stephenson's idea into our current reality.

ana futura
03-17-13, 01:50 PM
This is what the articles are about- addictive behavior. They aren't talking about "tech and the mind", they are talking about what a constant flood of dopamine has the potential to do to our brains. It IS frightening.

We may appear to be choosing to use this technology, but in fact we are being dragged to it by the potential of short-term rewards. Every ping could be social, sexual, or professional opportunity, and we get a mini-reward, a squirt of dopamine, for answering the bell. “These rewards serve as jolts of energy that recharge the compulsion engine, much like the frisson a gambler receives as a new card hits the table,” MIT media scholar Judith Donath recently told Scientific American. “Cumulatively, the effect is potent and hard to resist.”

Recently it became possible to watch this kind of Web use rewire the brain. In 2008 Gary Small, the head of UCLA’s Memory and Aging Research Center, was the first to document changes in the brain as a result of even moderate Internet use. He rounded up 24 people, half of them experienced Web users, half of them newbies, and he passed them each through a brain scanner. The difference was striking, with the Web users displaying fundamentally altered prefrontal cortexes. But the real surprise was what happened next. The novices went away for a week, and were asked to spend a total of five hours online and then return for another scan. “The naive subjects had already rewired their brains,” he later wrote, musing darkly about what might happen when we spend more time online

SB_UK
03-17-13, 01:52 PM
Politics is the art or science of influencing people.

When anybody does science it's to find some idea which influences the way people think.

So - 'we found that all people with red jumpers die 15 minutes after putting them on' is a scientific conclusion which would lead to all people burning their, as yet, unworn red jumpers.
The idea of an idea is to influence people.

There's no point in any idea which isn't there to have some effect.

There's no effect without influencing people.

In this sense - all ideas (particularly the key ideas) are there to influence people - and so all ideas are 'politics'.

ana futura
03-17-13, 01:54 PM
The brains of Internet addicts, it turns out, look like the brains of drug and alcohol addicts. In a study published in January, Chinese researchers found “abnormal white matter”—essentially extra nerve cells built for speed—in the areas charged with attention, control, and executive function. A parallel study found similar changes in the brains of videogame addicts. And both studies come on the heels of other Chinese results that link Internet addiction to “structural abnormalities in gray matter,” namely shrinkage of 10 to 20 percent in the area of the brain responsible for processing of speech, memory, motor control, emotion, sensory, and other information. And worse, the shrinkage never stopped: the more time online, the more the brain showed signs of “atrophy.”

:eek:!

SB_UK
03-17-13, 01:59 PM
Tech (particularly as we're using it) allows interactive education.

You're allowed to disagree as long as you can explain why.

That's how it differs from classical educational schemes where you're expected to accept without application of critical faculties.

SB_UK
03-17-13, 02:17 PM
..The infant has a urge to explore the world,

reaching out, if there is something interesting,

like a mobile, starts playing with it,

it's the SEEKING System that does all that activity.. -Prof. Jaak Panksepp

(See video link below)

Exactly correct.

Tech just helps us to seek the answer more quickly.

Where the answer is the generation of an active desire to form a global hierarchy-less society.

The next step in human evolution - a soceital infrastructure which is ADDer-permissive.

We're 'stupidity' sensitive - we're sensitive to societal level practices which're not in the best interests of people.

SB_UK
03-17-13, 02:23 PM
Politics is the art or science of influencing people.

When anybody does science it's to find some idea which influences the way people think.

So - 'we found that all people with red jumpers die 15 minutes after putting them on' is a scientific conclusion which would lead to all people burning their, as yet, unworn red jumpers.
The idea of an idea is to influence people.

There's no point in any idea which isn't there to have some effect.

There's no effect without influencing people.

In this sense - all ideas (particularly the key ideas) are there to influence people - and so all ideas are 'politics'.

ana futura
03-17-13, 02:23 PM
Exactly correct.

Tech just helps us to seek the answer more quickly.

Where the answer is the generation of an active desire to form a global hierarchy-less society.

But you are missing an important element. Yes, tech does help us seek the answer more quickly.

But the studies referenced in this article -
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2012/07/08/is-the-internet-making-us-crazy-what-the-new-research-says.html
suggest that something else is happening as well. The rapid way in which tech allows our brain to accesses information is actually changing the physical structure of the brain- for the worse.

Please read at least one of the articles so you understand why McTavish posted them in the first place. There is much more going on here.

SB_UK
03-17-13, 02:25 PM
But you are missing an important element. Yes, tech does help us seek the answer more quickly.

But the studies referenced in this article -
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2012/07/08/is-the-internet-making-us-crazy-what-the-new-research-says.html
suggest that something else is happening as well. The rapid way in which tech allows our brain to accesses information is actually changing the physical structure of the brain- for the worse.

Please read at least one of the articles so you understand why McTavish posted them in the first place. There is much more going on here.

Please summarise the point that you think I'm missing.

I could well be missing it - I just don't know until you tell me (just a clue if the rules are that you're not allowed to answer me directly) in a simply worded sentence.

You may be referencing physical changes to match the switch into an active desire for social living ... ... is that it ?

ana futura
03-17-13, 02:27 PM
Please summarise the point that you think I'm missing.

I could well be missing it - I just don't know until you tell me in a simply worded sentence.

The rapid way in which tech allows our brain to accesses information is actually changing the physical structure of the brain- for the worse

Have you read any of the linked articles? They don't just cite one study- they cite dozens. The newsweek article starts off talking about a man who had a psychotic break because he spent too much time on twitter.

mildadhd
03-17-13, 02:51 PM
This is what the articles are about- addictive behavior.

I agree.

Addictive behavior,

a lack of self regulation.

Very important to consider.

Thanks.




i!i

Amtram
03-17-13, 02:51 PM
Unfortunately, the tendency of the general public is to believe that this kind of incident, by extension, applies to all people who use technology. . .ergo, technology is bad. The Daily Beast/Newsweek article sneaks that assumption in, as well, citing studies from more than a dozen years ago that establish a link, but not directional causation, between the technology and disorder.

Addictive behaviors come in many different forms, and there are usually things that will predispose some people to become addicted. What's surprising here is not that people become addicted to some kind of technology, but that it causes changes to the brain. However, I'd be wary of attributing the addiction to the technology without knowing if there would be an addiction to something else in the absence of technology.

SB_UK
03-17-13, 03:17 PM
The rapid way in which tech allows our brain to accesses information is actually changing the physical structure of the brain- for the worse

Have you read any of the linked articles? They don't just cite one study- they cite dozens. The newsweek article starts off talking about a man who had a psychotic break because he spent too much time on twitter.

What's the conclusion ?

The rapid way in which tech allows our brain to accesses information is actually changing the physical structure of the brain- for the worse.

Surely if it's for the worse then we need to shut the internet down.

Why's there any room for debate ?

Personally - I couldn't care less about the Internet now.
Though it did serve its purpose.

Just accelerating human evolution by getting people to talk.

ana futura
03-17-13, 03:21 PM
To expound on what you said Amtram-

The author of the newsweek article infers a link between the rise in ADHD diagnoses and the rise of the internet.

The assumption there is that using the internet leads to ADHD. Now that's silly. BUT- suppose what's really happening are that people who are sub-threshold, just barely managing to hang on, are being pushed over the edge by their internet addictions? So the technology isn't bad per se, but to a vulnerable population it can be quite harmful.

I made it through my undergrad degree okay. Right after I graduated, I got internet access at home. My life changed dramatically, almost over night. Now there was this huge time suck, right there, and I simply couldn't pull myself away from it. Before the internet I would eventually accomplish what I needed to do, but since, it's almost impossible. It has without a doubt made several of my ADHD behaviors much worse. Much like an alcohol addiction would have made those behaviors worse.

SB_UK
03-17-13, 03:27 PM
It has without a doubt made several of my ADHD behaviors much worse. Much like an alcohol addiction would have made those behaviors worse.

So you believe that the Internet is doing bad things to the human brain/mind and shutting it down is one way of preventing continued deterioration in the brain/mind ?

Do you think that that's going to happen ?

SB_UK
03-17-13, 03:38 PM
This tech was introduced in the newspapers a few days ago.

We're about to enter 'always on' territory.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRvr4iM0Z98wssanrNGVQKIO32bOKEDf TYgNmuZCkD-HPEzHCxIGA

Only global economic collapse 'll stop it.

I think people 'd better hope that the wiring changes we're seeing is change for the better - because it's not going to be reversed.

ana futura
03-17-13, 03:48 PM
So you believe that the Internet is doing bad things to the human brain/mind and shutting it down is one way of preventing continued deterioration in the brain/mind ?

Do you think that that's going to happen ?

No and no. I believe that the internet has the potential to be incredibly damaging to vulnerable populations (ADHD'ers being one). And there is no doubt that the changes happening to them are not positive.

No one is going to shut it down, nor do I want to see it shut down- it has many positives, some of which you've already pointed out.

But we do need to take the threat to vulnerable populations seriously.

One way of doing that is by educating people, training them to learn to recognize addictive behavior.

It's a lot like alcohol. Alcohol is harmless in moderation- and maybe even beneficial. But to some vulnerable populations it is deadly.

We need to think- is it wise to ask students with ADHD to submit all of their papers over the net? Probably not.

We must accept that this technology can be extremely damaging to certain populations, and make allowances for them. Encouraging moderation is key- for everyone.

And it's probably not a bad idea to take the ipads away from the 5 year olds.

Amtram
03-17-13, 04:06 PM
Of course, my question would be - are these addictions actually more prevalent than other addictions because there are more addicts, or because these addictions are more publicly visible? IOW, would the technology addicts be addicted to something else that they had to do in secret if this more socially acceptable addiction weren't available?

ana futura
03-17-13, 04:10 PM
Of course, my question would be - are these addictions actually more prevalent than other addictions because there are more addicts, or because these addictions are more publicly visible? IOW, would the technology addicts be addicted to something else that they had to do in secret if this more socially acceptable addiction weren't available?

For myself, I really don't think so. I was educated about drug and alcohol addictions, I knew what the warning signs were, and I knew that I should be careful and moderate my intake (having alcoholism run in my family)

But I knew nothing about the addictive potential of the internet. It snuck up on me. And now it is almost impossible to shake, no matter how hard I try. Addictions are easiest to deal with when you avoid getting one in the first place. Had I known in my twenties what I know now, I would have moderated my intake.

And the internet is just super freaking addictive- it is the perfect drug.

Twackycats
03-17-13, 04:13 PM
On the note of tech inducing stress based on societal structure.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is episodic or intermettent stress.
The stressor in this case is harmless in itself. The body's reaction may be problematic in unfortunate circumstances.
What I'm getting at is Physiological Toughening. I'll drop a quote here:

"Physiological Toughening is concerned with the third category of stressors, intermittent stressors. Intermittent stressors are the most variable in duration, alternating between periods of stress and calm. If an intermittent stressor is viewed as a challenge, it may improve one's physiological resistance to stress by causing repeated, periodic increases in sympathetic arousal which conditions the body to better withstand subsequent stressors."
http://www.csun.edu/~vcpsy00h/students/stress.htm

SB_UK
03-17-13, 04:18 PM
For myself, I really don't think so. I was educated about drug and alcohol addictions, I knew what the warning signs were, and I knew that I should be careful and moderate my intake (having alcoholism run in my family)

But I knew nothing about the addictive potential of the internet. It snuck up on me. And now it is almost impossible to shake, no matter how hard I try. Addictions are easiest to deal with when you avoid getting one in the first place. Had I known in my twenties what I know now, I would have moderated my intake.

And the internet is just super freaking addictive- it is the perfect drug.


Personally - over the last little while - I've begun to find the Internet as irritating as the television (which we haven't switched on for years).

The only advantage it offers to me personally - is the ability to make a point out of real-time.

Though - there're only so many times that one can repeat one point (-> hierarchy-less society or bust <-).

I'm going to stick with my original point that they way many of us use it - is as an educational tool - which most likely alters the brain in some way - but only towards 'social' animalness.

My personal view is that it doesn't really matter if we're required to change a little (physically) in order to set into a frame of mind which allows us to be happy social animals ... ... what's important is that we make the transition to doing the right thing (realising a hierarchy less society)
- and whatever it takes (however the brain is required to change to allow that to happen)

- is whatever it takes.

-*-

Tech just fast-tracking downstream consequences of 'proper' (moral) education; fast-tracking an individual's development of a rational logical model / mind.

The spirit of true education / teaching ... ... enquirer (student) lead.

ana futura
03-17-13, 04:27 PM
Personally - over the last little while - I've begun to find the Internet as irritating as the television (which we haven't switched on for years).

The only advantage it offers to me personally - is the ability to make a point out of real-time.

Though - there's only so many times that one can repeat one point.

For me it's not about content- I find much of the content irritating as well.

It's the pattern of click > something new! > dopamine

I get stuck in a loop, and I can't break out of it.

I go online to look at my course syllabus, and I get sidetracked, and then 4 hours are gone. It happens over and over again. I hate it, it's ruining my life, and I can't stop myself. If I lived by myself I would not have access, but my partner needs it for work. I've tried several times to articulate to her how having internet in the home is like letting an alcoholic live in a bar, but she simply does not get it.

I'm fine when on vacation or when camping, but as soon as I come home it's back to the old. I don't know what to do, it truly is ruining my life.

And unlike with alcohol or drugs, ADHD meds don't help, in any way. I find they often make it worse.

SB_UK
03-17-13, 04:29 PM
Perhaps it's necessary to look at what specifically the individual is doing on the computer ?

I guess I can understand that if they're using those online gambling sites - then it's just plain old gambling addiction using a computer
... ... is that the sort of addiction you mean ?

SB_UK
03-17-13, 04:30 PM
It's the pattern of click > something new! > dopamine

I get stuck in a loop, and I can't break out of it.


Can you give a few examples ?

I only ever look for what I want to know ?

The 'hit' I get - is answering a question which I want answering.

Nothing else.

SB_UK
03-17-13, 04:33 PM
So - if there's a link to something I don't know ... ... but don't want to know ... .. I don't click.

The phrase - taken from wikipedia, I think - is "when the student is ready - the teacher will become apparent".

ana futura
03-17-13, 04:38 PM
Anything at all. A new post on facebook. A new reply on here on a thread I've been looking at. "Shopping" for things on amazon, ebay, or craigslist that I won't even buy. I just look for things, and put them in my cart. I spend hours doing this stupid crap.

And "looking for things I want to know" is dangerous as well. I'll come across an interesting article, then I've spent 2 hours "researching" things I've learned in the article. But it's all worthless junk- like I'll learn on the news about an incident of cannibalism, then I start researching cannibalism, then disease you can get from eating human flesh, then mad cow disease. I don't even eat meat!

It goes on and on. And I have crap I want to be doing! Like going for hikes, or my homework, or working on one of my myraid home improvement projects. I like doing those things, and I find them so satisfying. But instead I just get stuck in this procrastinatory time suck.

ana futura
03-17-13, 04:42 PM
It's hard to explain to people who don't deal with addiction themselves. Others always say "Well, just stop, don't do that thing you don't want to do." But it is so much harder than that. I can't simply stop, believe me I would if I could. It's a chemical addiction, it has nothing to do with a desire for knowledge. It's about dopamine, pure and simple.

SB_UK
03-17-13, 04:53 PM
I go online to look at my course syllabus, and I get sidetracked, and then 4 hours are gone.

-- because that's (looking at a syllabus) boring ??

Right now I'm meant to be filling out a form or two - but I'm not doing it and am typing here because it's less boring.

It's not an addiction - it's just less dull.

I've noticed that when I've something unpleasant to do - that when I've something even more unpleasant to do
- that the just plain unpleasant thing becomes attractive.

Note - though I'm not suggesting that there's any need for the unpleasant thing that's less unpleasant to be pleasant.

SB_UK
03-17-13, 05:00 PM
Anything at all. A new post on facebook. A new reply on here on a thread I've been looking at. "Shopping" for things on amazon, ebay, or craigslist that I won't even buy. I just look for things, and put them in my cart. I spend hours doing this stupid crap.

That's interesting - I really can't look for anything I don't specifically want, want to know ... etc ...

TygerSan
03-17-13, 05:29 PM
ADHD meds don't help, in any way. I find they often make it worse.

ADHD meds made things *so* much worse for me. I'm a great computer programmer on them; I did great, extensive, yet focused research for my thesis on them. . . and actually read most of the papers I looked up all the way through, multiple times.

What I could not do was sit down and write a coherent page without going back and compulsively researching the heck out of every single reference.

I loved the focus, but controlling where it went was as big of a problem as ever. (I have to say that I do tend to have problems transitioning off of meds as well, but the meds made it even harder).

ana futura
03-17-13, 06:05 PM
-- because that's (looking at a syllabus) boring ??

Right now I'm meant to be filling out a form or two - but I'm not doing it and am typing here because it's less boring.

That's really not the case for me- I love my classes, and once I get started, I really do enjoy doing my readings and writing papers. It's just so hard to start because there's no instant gratification.

I'm in grad school, for a field I really like, this isn't the mindless drudgery of high school I'm battling. But still, the satisfaction I get from school is a delayed gratification- it takes a while to get a sense of accomplishment from it. With the internet, it's an instant hit of chemicals. It seems like the more I get used to that hit, the less satisfaction I get from "real life" rewards.

And if I must procrastinate, why not do it with something I like- like going for a bike ride? I love biking, but I find I can rarely drag myself away from this machine to go do it.

ana futura
03-17-13, 06:13 PM
I loved the focus, but controlling where it went was as big of a problem as ever. (I have to say that I do tend to have problems transitioning off of meds as well, but the meds made it even harder).
Yes, ditto. MPH meds like focalin seem to be a little better than amphetamines, but not by much.

mctavish23
03-17-13, 11:52 PM
Keep In Mind,

I am talking about what Newsweek has called a "reactive psychosis," and

used the example of a young man named, Jason Russell. While I don't have a

definite opinion on that particular instance, I do believe that the premise is a

sound one. This thread is about internet addiction, the impact of constant

video gaming, and texting. One of the things the Newsweek article pointed

out was that "The average teen processes an astounding 3,700 texts a

month (p.26)." THAT's what I'm trying to talk about. :yes:


u r welcome :cool:

ana futura
03-18-13, 12:32 AM
Keep In Mind,

I am talking about what Newsweek has called a "reactive psychosis," and

used the example of a young man named, Jason Russell. While I don't have a

definite opinion on that particular instance, I do believe that the premise is a

sound one. This thread is about internet addiction, the impact of constant

video gaming, and texting. One of the things the Newsweek article pointed

out was that "The average teen processes an astounding 3,700 texts a

month (p.26)." THAT's what I'm trying to talk about. :yes:


u r welcome :cool:

I guess where the teen part is relevant, is that adults don't seem to be that prone to tech addictions, unless there is something else going on (in my case, ADHD.) I imagine Jason Russell had something else going on as well.

While I know a fair number of adults who spend "too much time" online, I don't think they are held hostage by their behavior the way I am.

With this generation of kids though, it's different. My 5 year old nephew is glued to a screen every time I see him. He is completely enamored by the computer and his ipad. Every free second he has he spends it playing a game. What is this going to mean for him when he grows up? Is he being trained to respond exclusively to this constant stream of dopamine? His brain is still developing- what impact will this have?

I am really concerned about the amount of screen time kids get- it's gone way beyond "tv rots yer brains"

When it comes down to it, I don't think we as a society are taking the potential danger seriously enough. We all think it's "common sense" to encourage kids to play outside and put down their phones, but the truth might be that tech is too powerful for that. I believe we are looking at something with more addictive potential than alcohol or nicotine, yet many of us are under the impression that it's relatively harmless.

Amtram
03-18-13, 12:58 PM
There's actually a physiological basis behind addiction, and there are other reasons to spend too much time attached to technology besides being addicted to it. We throw the term "addiction" around a little bit too casually, and it loses its meaning and impact.

I was thinking about this and the way I and my younger daughter use technology, even as opposed to the way my husband and older daughter do. As I pondered, I found myself agreeing with Barkley for the first time ever that there's such a thing as "perseveration" with ADHD. I would not describe my or DD#2's attachment to the internet and games as an addiction, nor does it (for me) usually create the experience I categorize in myself as hyperfocus.

Most often, it's done without much thought, and its biggest attraction lies in it being easier than doing tasks we'd prefer to avoid. No matter which way I look at it, I wouldn't characterize simply spending a lot of time texting or web surfing or gaming as an "addiction." There are other characteristics of addiction that go well beyond just doing something a lot.

ana futura
03-18-13, 01:07 PM
Well, I get agitated when I can't use the computer. I think about the internet when I'm not on it. And I have sabotaged my life in multiple ways because I can't drag myself away from it.

Every day when I get up I tell myself- You're not going to touch that today. You are going to make breakfast and go for a walk. It never happens.

I forego eating for it. My relationship with my partner is strained because of it.

That's an addiction. I often wonder if the reason I call it an addiction, and others do not, is that I am aware of the behavior and I dislike it. I really do not want to be doing it. It brings me no joy. It might be just as difficult for others to stop, but because they like the behavior, they won't call it an addiction.

The one thing that's not addiction like about my behavior is that once I am removed from the temptation completely (camping) I am fine. But as soon as I am back in an environment with computers again, I have to use them. I don't even know what I'm looking for sometimes, I'll just try to think up random things to search.

Maybe it's just an ADHD self soothing behavior gone out of control, but it does function in my life in the same manner as an addiction, and when the temptation is completely removed I do much better (like I eat breakfast, and I'll leave the house)

I was so much more productive and happy when we had a power outage.

Amtram
03-18-13, 01:26 PM
See, that sounds much more like an addiction.

ana futura
03-18-13, 01:37 PM
I propose you and DD#2 engage in an experiment- go one whole day with no phone, internet or video games.

You can't rely on external means of prevention- like you can't leave the house all day without your phones.

You must have internet and phone access, and the only thing to prevent you from using them is your will power. You may procrastinate in any other way- go for a walk, read a book, knit, clean your grout, whatever.

Try to notice every time that you think about the internet/ phone/ computer. Watch yourself and see if you find yourself being pulled towards it.

If I did that, I would notice a frequent pull towards the computer. Eventually I always cave. The only way I can not go on is if I rely on external means- like shutting off the router.

silivrentoliel
03-18-13, 01:44 PM
I can't read through all this at the moment... but I wanted to say two things...

1- I don't think technology has "rewired" anything... it's more like it's tapped into our constant need for stimulation. It was created with the idea of having everything at our fingertips and being able to have it quickly... which is exactly what an ADHDer prefers. So, rewired? No. But I don't know exactly what I'd call it.

2-

Quote:
The brains of Internet addicts, it turns out, look like the brains of drug and alcohol addicts. In a study published in January, Chinese researchers found “abnormal white matter”—essentially extra nerve cells built for speed—in the areas charged with attention, control, and executive function. A parallel study found similar changes in the brains of videogame addicts. And both studies come on the heels of other Chinese results that link Internet addiction to “structural abnormalities in gray matter,” namely shrinkage of 10 to 20 percent in the area of the brain responsible for processing of speech, memory, motor control, emotion, sensory, and other information. And worse, the shrinkage never stopped: the more time online, the more the brain showed signs of “atrophy.”
:eek:!
I may be missing the entire point of this little blurb, but I disagree. There have been numerous instances where those who play video games have been involved in studies with the armed forces or various other types of science/military stuff and it's been proven time and time again that they have faster reflexes, better problem solving abilities, and a better sense of "thinking outside the box" (which kinda is the same as problem solving, but not really).

No, I don't have references, but Google is a marvelous tool.

I do, however, think that the generation of kids growing up with all this technology is mentally being crippled by the same technology. An NT child isn't developing the executive functions, hence mimicking an ADHD child, and the ADHD child is not even having to attempt to try to mimic their NT counterpart, thus learning coping skills (be they valuable or invaluable).

SB_UK
03-18-13, 01:55 PM
You may procrastinate in any other way- go for a walk, read a book, knit, clean your grout, whatever.


I prefer all of those things to surfing the Internet.

Bit rusty on kitting though - truth be told - never was very good at it.

Found the daydream state came far too easily when knitting - and off 'she' went... ...

SB_UK
03-18-13, 02:04 PM
play video games

Hate video games too - always have done - apart from the really simple ones like Space Invaders - and even them - for only a few minutes at a time.
There's too much going on in the video game, generally.

No sense of reward - just as you 'lose' - you start again - right from the beginning.

My wife describes the video game as totally unrewarding.

I thought that being easily overwhelmed by information (sensory) was a hallmark of ADHD.

I like empty - absence - perfect calm.

~s (http://gettinbetter.com/ADD.html)~ ADHD'ers are often flooded by stimulation, which easily prompts sensations of overwhelm. When overwhelm occurs, it's like an electrical overload that 'short circuits' our brains, and causes a mental system shut-down that can feel paralyzing (and depressing).Something a bit strange going on here.

mildadhd
03-18-13, 02:32 PM
I think that early development (before the age of 4),

has the most impact on if a person is going to have a stronger addictive personality.

From a lack of self control perspective. (that Seeking, searching feeling for something that "feels missing")

If there was a time period that we can help support healthy development of implicit self regulation.

And lessen the chances of a person developing a addictive personality, it is before the age of 4.

Just like ADD.(this is why so many ADDers have trouble with addiction)

Though through ADD, is not the only way a person can develop commorbidities,

like anxiety, depression, and addiction.

It is one very common way.

I was told by professionals in the Addictions field personally,

(besides what I heard and read in Dr.Mate's Books and Video's )

that they think about 50% of all substance abusers are ADD,

in the Down Town EastSide Vancouver.

(where a large population of people suffer from serious addiction).


I think all people have addictive personalities.

The SEEKING System,

a combination of conditions (both internal and external) during during early years of self regulation,

and abnormal environmental stressors,

are major contributing factors in people who suffer from serious addiction.


We all have addictive natures to varying degrees.

A major factor is personal self control (or lack of self control).


As well emotional pain.


People with lack of self regulation and other conditions,

are more prone to sooth themselves by self medicating,

with addictive behaviors (like computers, television, etc.) and addictive substances.


This is ruff, need to learn to express myself better.

.

Amtram
03-18-13, 03:15 PM
Hey, ana - I'm agreeing with you! No, daughter and I have no trouble going without if there's other interesting stuff to do. It happens all the time. What she and I are experiencing with technology wouldn't meet the criteria for addiction. But technology addiction is a real thing, and it's a real addiction. Media portrayals of any X number of hours spent on the computer per day or per week as an "addiction," though, does a disservice both to people who are actually addicted and those who really aren't.

ana futura
03-18-13, 11:12 PM
Hey, ana - I'm agreeing with you! No, daughter and I have no trouble going without if there's other interesting stuff to do. It happens all the time.

Oh, I know, and I believe you when you say you aren't addicted. I still think you should try the test though. Just as a mindfulness exercise to observe how you feel when you purposely cut yourself off.

My own addiction just crept up on me. I didn't used to think it was a big deal at all, but now it seems almost pathological. I wasn't even comfortable calling it an addiction until I tried to go without it. Only then did I realize how bad I'd become.

meadd823
03-21-13, 08:43 AM
What truly frightens me about the "environment" we live in




Easy stupidity . . .. the problem being it doesn't appear to be going any where any time soon .

Crazy New research (http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2012/07/08/is-the-internet-making-us-crazy-what-the-new-research-says.html)

Now the Korean government is funding treatment centers, and coordinating a late-night Web shutdown for young people. China, meanwhile, has launched a mothers’ crusade for safe Web habits, turning to that approach after it emerged that some doctors were using electro-shock and severe beatings to treat Internet-addicted teens.

Holy mother of a frog
How about we find a treatment for doctors who think it is okay to severely beat any one then worry about the kids on-line access.

The notin that a society who worries more about a teens access to the internet than it does physically abusive professionals sees my brain as inferior or not normal isn't really a bad thing.



If I want to blame my problems on some one I look in the mirror not on the web, at the bottom of a bottle, in a syringe not on a credit card .


Before I bang my head against the computer desk, run naked down the road {but never before my morning cup of coffee} I just want to make one simple point - I see SB not as having trouble understanding the physical changes in the brain being discussed in the article but of the automatic assumption that the physical changes are bad simply because they are changes - seesh . . . .

It would seem to me that a majority's manner of present day brain wiring as basically being non-productive in interactive collaboration because it too focused on separation and segregation between various groups based upon physical features and material status symbols where as the internet opens up the possibility of global increased focus on connectedness, social contribution and collaboration.


Maybe the all mighty frontal cortex {executive function} isn't needed in a non-heirichial society based upon ideas as opposed to acquisition so it's shrinkage isn't necessarily a bad thing.


Zaa flip side and welcome to dyslexic ADHD :D


Okay now for that cup of coffee . .. .

meadd823
03-21-13, 09:14 AM
Am I the only one who noticed that every one sighted in this article is the author of some book or another - I guess my internet addicted brain spots virtual fertilizer as a result of the decreased amount of grey manner in my non-executive posterior

- If I write a book on moronic reasons to use research dollars can I be sighted as an expert on morons in the next article?


I'm not buying it -

Case Western Reserve University correlated heavy texting and social-media use with stress, depression, and suicidal thinking.

I have stress depression and suicidal thinking and I rarely visit my own facebook page and I haven't text more than four or five times in my entire life - The feature is disabled on my cell phone which is by the way just a cell phone. When I leave my house my computer stays here - I can't see any thing on those tiny little phone screens , my husband thinks phones should be for phone calls and my mom's arthritis makes texting from a phone key pad impossible so we have never even had the texting feature. . .-


For her book Alone Together, MIT psychologist Sherry Turkle interviewed more than 450 people, most of them in their teens and 20s, about their lives online. And while she’s the author of two prior tech-positive books, and once graced the cover of Wired magazine, she now reveals a sad, stressed-out world of people coated in Dorito dust and locked in a dystopian relationship with their machines.

~Underlining in quote added by me -

This lady is playing both side of the field who in the hell does she think she is kidding!


http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s206/tlr823/my%20personal%20graphics/sos-1.jpg


Maybe stress, depression and suicidal thinking is part of being human and these "experts" just want to use the latest wave of scare mongering to sell books!!!

SB_UK
03-22-13, 06:09 AM
I think that early development (before the age of 4),

has the most impact on if a person is going to have a stronger addictive personality.

From a lack of self control perspective. (that Seeking, searching feeling for something that "feels missing")

If there was a time period that we can help support healthy development of implicit self regulation.

And lessen the chances of a person developing a addictive personality, it is before the age of 4.

Just like ADD.(this is why so many ADDers have trouble with addiction)

Though through ADD, is not the only way a person can develop commorbidities,

like anxiety, depression, and addiction.

It is one very common way.

I was told by professionals in the Addictions field personally,

(besides what I heard and read in Dr.Mate's Books and Video's )

that they think about 50% of all substance abusers are ADD,

in the Down Town EastSide Vancouver.

(where a large population of people suffer from serious addiction).


I think all people have addictive personalities.

The SEEKING System,

a combination of conditions (both internal and external) during during early years of self regulation,

and abnormal environmental stressors,

are major contributing factors in people who suffer from serious addiction.


We all have addictive natures to varying degrees.

A major factor is personal self control (or lack of self control).


As well emotional pain.


People with lack of self regulation and other conditions,

are more prone to sooth themselves by self medicating,

with addictive behaviors (like computers, television, etc.) and addictive substances.


This is ruff, need to learn to express myself better.

.

Agree with entire post.
Having trouble with understanding - 'self regulation' idea.
Query - insensitive reward system, blunted through stress exposure ?
No ?
reason - no/lesser reward therefore bad reaction eg the smoker's behaviour when he goes too long without - no other concerns matter.

Goal in life - transcend that reward system - equates to transcending blood glucose elevation as 'stimulant'.
Overcoming need for speed (stimulation).
Replacement - stimulation via mind in meditative state.

SB_UK
03-22-13, 06:13 AM
I have stress depression and suicidal thinking and I rarely visit my own facebook page and I haven't text more than four or five times in my entire life - The feature is disabled on my cell phone which is by the way just a cell phone. When I leave my house my computer stays here - I can't see any thing on those tiny little phone screens , my husband thinks phones should be for phone calls and my mom's arthritis makes texting from a phone key pad impossible so we have never even had the texting feature. . .

Same here - except no phone (I don't talk).
Strange immune condition hands and feet - can't type on little touchpads.
Small screen hatred.

ps - brevity through bike accident damage.
pain! pain!
As if there wasn't enough pain before.

SB_UK
03-22-13, 06:16 AM
Easy stupidity . . .. the problem being it doesn't appear to be going any where any time soon .


Exactly - my opening point on this thread.

I can't have a thought without discovering that it (the problem which it points to) is solved by a higher concern (Einstein paraphrase - 'no problem is solved on the same level of consciousness on which it is created').
All problems are solved in a world of equality.

SB_UK
03-22-13, 06:29 AM
Don't you think that result of internet - communication with like-minded in all countries of world simply stifles/extinguishes the -ism (ego) and builds the equality (we're all just the 'same') modulated mind ... ... ... presumably something like control to species wellbeing concerns and reduced individual-centricity
- something like formation of a flat network structure of mind
- reward through this new network structure
... ... is occurring ?

Similarity between ROFC in nasty addiction and what we're seeing - ('social addiction') - is activation of reward system - bad in former, good in latter case.

Just ideas.

SB_UK
03-22-13, 06:59 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbitofrontal_cortex
The orbitofrontal cortex (OFC) is a prefrontal cortex region in the frontal lobes in the brain which is involved in the cognitive processing of decision-making.

Slowing down here.

What determines our decisions ?

Our belly (material world) - selfish concerns
versus
Our mind (virtual world) - tendency, as it builds towards social concerns

The mind (eg psychopath) can tend towards selfishness ... ... but towards completion/upon completion - I don't think that it's a big deal to suggest that species wellbeing (and not satisfaction of an individual's greed) is what defines decision-making.

SB_UK
03-22-13, 07:12 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prefrontal_cortex
The most typical psychological term for functions carried out by the prefrontal cortex area is executive function. Executive function relates to abilities to differentiate among conflicting thoughts, determine good and bad, better and best, same and different, future consequences of current activities, working toward a defined goal, prediction of outcomes, expectation based on actions, and social "control" (the ability to suppress urges that, if not suppressed, could lead to socially unacceptable outcomes).

Keeping it really simple.

Do you eat that piece of cake or not ?
Do you help that man or not ?

The decision is basically 'me me me' (ego) versus 'you as me'.
So - selfish versus social reward battling it out.

They both need to activate reward circuitry or they wouldn't influence behaviour.

Obviously eg eating a cake does (selfish, material world reward).

How does social action activation do it ?
I think it's obvious to all here that it does.

But how?

Why does helping somebody else produce reward ? for the person who is helping.

What's the mechanism ?

someothertime
03-22-13, 07:20 AM
Hahaha! Soon laptops will be camouflaged as tree's to reconnect us with the natural world!!!

SB_UK
03-22-13, 07:23 AM
Conclusion (http://www.measuringbehavior.org/files/2012/ProceedingsPDF%28website%29/Special%20Sessions/Social%20Behavior%20and%20communication%20From%20M ice%20to%20Primates/Vanderschuren_et_al_MB2012.pdf) here gives mechanism.

What else could it be ?

But still not satisfied.

Need a 'Tyler Durden' idea which makes the neural mechanism of social interaction (I'd sugggest to man with mind - social interaction meaning written communication which seeks to answer questions) evident.

Of course - re-iterating that the 'meaning of life' - is to be happy, which means transcending mind.

Meaning - that social play is geared towards just 1 goal - taking the individual towards a concept of reality which makes sense.

Is the individual being rewarded by their own mind which constructs by virtue of social enquiry ? or is it simply the act of enquiring (ie being social for social's sake) that matters ?

I'm very much more attracted to the idea of open-minded people building their own minds - resulting in an elimination of their own material world attachment (blood glucose elevation/stimulation) and subsequent happiness.

Can't pay attention to anything which doesn't lead towards that goal - my own personal understanding of reality in my own (my own mind) terms - where everybody else must do similarly.

SB_UK
03-22-13, 07:31 AM
You have no idea how much I hate anatomical terms ?
The inferior frontal cortex should be in about the same place as the right orbito-frontal cortex ? shouldn't it ???

Inferior frontal cortex houses mirror neurones.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_neuron
Further experiments confirmed that about 10% of neurons in the monkey inferior frontal and inferior parietal cortex have "mirror" properties and give similar responses to performed hand actions and observed actions.The obvious answer 'd be that the social mind 'd be able to derive reward from 'being' the person who they're mirroring - and so feeling the reward that they do - as they feel reward.

I can explain this idea again - if you like.

The idea of actually feeling somebody else's reward by 'mirroring' them.

Hmmm... ... a mighty fine mechanism would that be.

The idea feels right.

SB_UK
03-22-13, 07:45 AM
So... ... ... I think that the reward system of the wise is feeling the reward (through the mirror neurone system) which others actually feel.

That's nice, isn't it ?

A thoroughly nice way of activating the reward system.

What does the other person need to be doing, to activate their reward system ?
Well - in the pre-wise there's a tendency to activate reward in a bad way (eating cakes, winning in competition) ... ... and I get no reward when I see my kids eating cakes or beating other children ... ...

but I think we can all see where reward can apply in a personal sense - where competition (ie others losing or the individual self-harming) 'd come into play.

Making something that they're proud of, for instance.

Or perhaps the reward simply comes from seeing them progress towards their own freedom - that is when we see their mind develop towards wisdom - asking the right questions - developing a mind of their own - which, in time will result in their own liberation.

SB_UK
03-22-13, 07:58 AM
"Many neurons in the anterior cingulate gyrus (ACCg) respond both when monkeys choose a drink for themselves and when they choose to give a drink to another monkey," Platt said. "One might view these as sort of mirror neurons for the reward system."http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2012-12/du-dtg122112.php
This finding, in macaques that have only a very distant common ancestor with us and are "not a particularly prosocial animal," suggests that "this specialized social circuitry evolved a long time ago presumably to support cooperative behavior," Platt said.

CITATION: "Neuronal reference frames for social decisions in primate frontal cortex" Steve W.C. Chang, Jean-François Gariépy, Michael L. Platt. Nature Neuroscience, Dec. 24, 2012. Doi: 10.1038/nn.3287

Definitely - social reward from seeing another rewarded.
Only reward which a human being 'll find satisfying - is completion of mind - making the splurge of data we're born into - placed into context - within a mind which understands it.

SB_UK
03-22-13, 08:13 AM
ACCghttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anterior_cingulate_cortex
The anterior cingulate cortex (ACC) is the frontal part of the cingulate cortex, that resembles a "collar" form around the corpus callosum. It ... play[s] a role in a wide variety of autonomic functions, such as regulating blood pressure and heart rate, as well as rational cognitive functions, such as reward anticipation, decision-making, empathy and emotion.

LEFT -- corpus callosum -- RIGHT [material world - selfish reward system]
LEFT -- ACCg --- RIGHT [virtual world - social reward system]

SB_UK
03-22-13, 08:19 AM
Make this idea simpler.

Anterior Cingulate cortex (gyrus) appears to be the centre of reward derivation in social organisms.
It functions like the 'mirror neurone' and can transmit reward experienced in another into reward felt by the individual themselves.

Being human is all about transcending the material world (the need for stimulation / blood glucose elevation) and entering the social reward paradigm - where the individual takes personal reward from another's sense of reward.

It seems as though the individual's sense of reward (and the sense of reward felt in the 'mirror') needs to be derived from some social behaviour.

-*-

To be properly human is to be happy when we help others to help all others.

SB_UK
03-22-13, 08:37 AM
What truly frightens me about the "environment" we live in
- is therefore the use of the primitive (material world) and not the higher (social) reward system by human beings.
At wisdom - there's an irreversible transition into social reward system (I am pretty sure that our entire reward might come from others)
- and we're left in rather a sticky situation.

Cos we can't get social reward if the majority are hell-bent on eating one another's heads.

Yes - people are motivated towards beating other people in competition (that produces a sense of reward for them)
- but the completed mind cannot help itself from screaming out 'but why are you doing that to yourself ?'
- nobody (not even you) benefits ... ... not really.

Amtram
03-22-13, 01:16 PM
I don't see how any of this ties in with the topic of how technology addiction (not just overuse, but addiction) produces similar functional differences and structural differences in the brain to substance addictions despite no actual substance being introduced to the body.

SB_UK
03-22-13, 01:30 PM
Summarise the only point people need to understand

You're trapped if you want stuff (money,power,title,certificate,prestige etc).
The goal is to escape that trap.
When escaped - the feeling is of that feeling of relaxation (large breath out - relaxation) permanently.
Background arousal (fear) melts away.

You no longer need to prove anything.

Which is just as well - because nobody can prove anything.

We're just an evolutionary few steps on from the subatomic particle
- and our task is to orientate ourselves
- just as the subatomic particles did

- into a species.

SB_UK
03-22-13, 01:34 PM
I don't see how any of this ties in with the topic of how technology addiction (not just overuse, but addiction) produces similar functional differences and structural differences in the brain to substance addictions despite no actual substance being introduced to the body.

Technology most commonly used for social interaction.

Social species formation through co-opting the circuitry of addiction.

Compulsive morality.

'll be unbreakable - it's a completely sustainable addiction - because the body does it all for itself.

Only way of ensuring that none of us go rogue - clamp us in using the overwhelming power of addiction.

SB_UK
03-22-13, 01:47 PM
Put simply - with an understanding of reality - our eyes open to the importance of synchronizing efforts with all other people.
As this happens - there's a sort of 'trust' which is put in place between people.
Any benefits people receive - they try to pay back.
They're given a few free youtube music videos, songs, a few comic books (lots of reward!) and they want more ... ... but not to feel like a slacker - they know they must contribute.
Each individual contributes 1 piece of information ... ... and before you know it - there's 10 billion bits of rewarding information available.

We're now activating the reward system through social means.

SB_UK
03-22-13, 01:50 PM
I appear to be compelled into suggesting that this addiction (social addiction) is so much better (obviously) - than searching for drugs, money, power etc... ... but that even this addiction (all addictions) melt away when the individual's mind forms - and s/he's then free without need for any of that.
Personally - I just want to be in the sun.

No formal reward required.

So - the problem up until formation of mind - is addictive propensity.

And social addiction is so much better a placeholder for the individual until s/he hops over into the enlightened state.

The great advantage of the Internet over physical interaction ... ... is that there's something about physical interaction which encourages hierarchy (gang leader), and discourages thinking (no time) ... ... rewards 'doing' and not thinking.

SB_UK
03-22-13, 02:20 PM
Also compelled to suggest that because no substance is involved - no negative feedback - no resisance/tolerance in system - making transition to enlightenment reward system activation possible.

Easy transition possible.

From social addiction to enforced moral consistency alone under the sun someplace clean.

Social addiction kinda' takes the place of asceticism ?

maybe??

-*-

So social info addiction which through info accumulation leads to overcoming social addiction (basic addictive propensity) at enlightenment.

Job done painlessly ?

mildadhd
03-22-13, 02:37 PM
I don't see how any of this ties in with the topic of how technology addiction (not just overuse, but addiction) produces similar functional differences and structural differences in the brain to substance addictions despite no actual substance being introduced to the body.

In my layman.

Considering that the organism is built around the primary emotional systems, (and not the other way around)

might help you to understand the connection between physical addictions and behavioral addictions.

The effects are more different.

The affects are more similar.


This is ruff but I am working on understanding and explaining the information better in the future.

mildadhd
03-22-13, 03:17 PM
SB_UK,

In regards to brain development.

I am not sure if hierarchy is the culprit.

I am wondering if not recognizing the natural hierarchy,

in brain development is what needs to be addressed,

to promote better understanding of the subjects.


The more ancient SEEKING, FEAR, ANGER are the 3 primitive primary emotional systems.

And other less ancient primary emotional systems "grew" out of them, (natural hierarchy?)

in relation with natural rewards and punishments found in the world.


The frontal cortex and limbic system are (the top and middle of the totem pole)

But this is not where ancient primary emotional systems begin.

They begin in the lower brain stem areas. (bottom of the totem pole)

I agree that hierarchy is involved,

but I think it is the human misconception about hierarchy,

and not the natural hierarchy itself that needs to be reconsidered.


Example.

Without a strong foundation at the bottom of the totem pole,

how can the top of the totem pole ever be strong?

The healthy development of the "higher" totem pole (self regulation),

depends on a healthy development of the "mid and lower" totem pole (emotional foundation).


I am working on explain this layman better, in a more evidence based manner in the near future.

I might not reply to this thread before I am able. (Have all the material in front of me but need to reread)

SB_UK
03-22-13, 03:28 PM
the connection between physical addictions and behavioral addictions.


We need an addiction (reward system activation) to something which has no withdrawal.

No pain to pleasure.

That's possible only in frame of boson.

To drop the duality and enter monism.

The fermion represents standard phenomenological reality.

Frame of boson projects phenomenological (fermion space) reality.

What's actually real - is not what's 'real' to us.
And so boson space'd be the frame of action of a 'maker'.

The 'maker' has 1 property - evolution 'by numbers' to informational complexity in itself.

It itself has its own evolutionary progression as attribute.

Meaning that we're all connected and constructed from Godstuff - where the goal (to return into boson space) is simply to realise all of this.

Whereupon - you're free.

The same basic mechanism though should scale via triplets to take in a species.

To get to a stage where we're a social species.

We really should be able to get to that place - the transition appears to have occurred effortlessly in the animal kingdom.

Upon social species formation - reward will be obtained just through existence - 'nothing to get hung about, strawberry fields forever'.

-*-

That's nice - generation of a social species by doing nothing other than thinking about it collectively.

Actual novel social impulse generation (Stabile - frame of boson) - surrounding the consciousness construct which represents the human species.

You're happy (in this setting) just through plain existence from birth to death.

At least - in a fair societal infrastructure.

Making ADDers a social organism - and our apparent problems with addiction - merely a consequence of an inhumane societal infrastructure (money and law) which surrounds us - and compels us to do harm.

Not good is that - 'd drive the stress sensitive to drink and worse ... ... which is exactly what we observed.

'We are the lotus kids. So better take note of this. For the story ... ...'

mildadhd
03-22-13, 04:02 PM
We need an addiction (reward system activation) to something which has no withdrawal.

No pain to pleasure.

That's possible only in frame of boson.

To drop the duality and enter monism.

The fermion represents standard phenomenological reality.

Frame of boson projects phenomenological (fermion space) reality.

What's actually real - is not what's 'real' to us.
And so boson space'd be the frame of action of a 'maker'.

The 'maker' has 1 property - evolution 'by numbers' to informational complexity in itself.

It itself has its own evolutionary progression as attribute.

Meaning that we're all connected and constructed from Godstuff - where the goal (to return into boson space) is simply to realise all of this.

Whereupon - you're free.


I never heard of boson and fermion space before, interesting,

although I will need some time to research the information more to understand better.

(not sure if we are agreeing or disagreeing LOL)(but I don't mind disagreeing)


I don't think what ever the reward activation is,

is the primary issue,

whether it is cocaine or a deck of cards...


What ever the reasons for underdevelopment of the brain systems (that experience the withdrawal),

that benefit from the short term benefits,

of what ever the addictive substance/behavior is the issue,

in my opinion.

Can't motivate a person with punishemnts

Can't motivate a person with rewards


Motivation comes from healthy emotional self brain development.

Healthy brain development is dependent on a healthy emotional environment.

This involves both ADD and Addiction,

and is why they are closely associated.


I hope to soon better explain this information better,

I could be making slight mistakes in explaining the information,

and appreciate any criticism, opinions.

I appreciate the practice discussing and learning about the information.

SB_UK
03-22-13, 04:09 PM
The pleasure/pain duality of addiction is the generic method which is used by 'creator' to ensure creation.
The deal is - to get over addiction (pain) - you gotta' push its evolutionary imperative.

Very clever.


Lotus symbolises purity because it grows out of dirty swampy water, yet it emerges pure, clean, and unattached.
- though the dirty swampy water did (at least over the last 50 years) turn almost solid.

Funny that the Higgs Boson was postulated around 50 years ago also.

SB_UK
03-22-13, 04:21 PM
What ever the reasons for underdevelopment of the brain systems (that experience the withdrawal),

that benefit from the short term benefits,

of what ever the addictive substance/behavior is the issue,

in my opinion.

Can't motivate a person with punishemnts

Can't motivate a person with rewards

Motivation comes from healthy emotional self brain development.

Healthy brain development is dependent on a healthy emotional environment.

Anything that makes addiction worse makes the individual less able to 'break free'.
Stimulation (blood glucose elevation) rewards.
Anything that stimulates hitches a ride on this mechanism.
In ADDers - we experience pain - pain drives us to stimulation/stimulant.
I'm in pain at the moment and yesterday and today have eaten carbs - after a long while without.

The goal is to escape that stimulation/narcotic - blood glucose elevation/reduction cycle of reward.

I have found that building mind increases the body's sensitivity to stimulation - it's rejected; can no longer take stimulant type foods / behaviours.

All makes sense.

Mind switching reward systems away from duality into a singular state of bliss (even blood glucose).

However - as I've found in the last 2 days - pain does really thrown you off.

Physical pain - currently - but it'll go - in stark contrast to - ... ... chronic psych. pain from being forced to use one's mind in immoral practices - definitely.
I, personally, just can't concentrate / motivate to anything that my mind states is pointless/immoral.

-*-

What's my point ?

I don't think that in a happy societal infrastructure - that people will need anything to be happy.
That within a social species in a happy societal infrastructure - that we won't require motivation to achieve anything, to feel happy (post-achievement)
- will just be happy through 'plain' existence.

This idea makes sense - because I've not been able to find any achievement (on the planet) which I can imagine achieving and which'd reward.

Achievements - sports, academic, purchases etc just leave this empty feeling of 'and that's it is it then ?'

mildadhd
03-22-13, 04:25 PM
The pleasure/pain duality of addiction is the generic method which is used by 'creator' to ensure creation.
The deal is - to get over addiction (pain) - you gotta' push its evolutionary imperative.

Very clever.


Lotus
- though the dirty swampy water did (at least over the last 50 years) turn almost solid.

Funny that the Higgs Boson was postulated around 50 years ago also.


I will need to research the information to understand your replies better.

I think we agree that that freedom of choice promotes brain development throughout life.

(especially before the age of 4.) (but not limited to)

I will be reading this and other threads but might not reply for a bit.

Thanks for the relationship/discussion.

Some of the topics you discussed today and before are part of the material I am reading,

I am not attempting to discuss certain areas at the present time til I understand them better,

but appreciate you bring the topics up for later discussion.

SB_UK
03-22-13, 04:40 PM
freedom
(especially before the age of 4.) (but not limited to)

Sounds good.
Confinements appear to have repercussions on mind.

Military style enforcement of systems on people of any age - cripples them.

Their minds are forced to operate behaviour in line with foisted protocols.

Not individually developed through a personal enquiry into natural science, morality and reality.

What truly frightens me about the "environment" we live inThe number 1 TED video - is 'why schools kill creativity ?'

Educational philosophy lacks intelligence.
freedomto think for oneself(especially before the age of 4.) (but not limited to)

Amtram
03-22-13, 08:28 PM
The point is that if an addiction is created, and that absent the introduction of a substance there are physiological changes in the brain, there is going to be a problem with withdrawal. This has absolutely nothing to do with society or morality or enlightenment, but with the neurological basis of addiction.

The physical difficulties directly related to substance withdrawal are specific to the substance. They may mask the fact that there is physical and mental pain created by withdrawal itself. So if a person is addicted to something that isn't chemical, it doesn't mean that withdrawal is easier - it simply isn't complicated by substance-specific discontinuation symptoms.

Addiction by its very nature removes freedom of choice. Addiction causes its victims to pursue it even when it stops providing the pleasure that it did initially or requires higher and higher amounts of exposure to provide pleasure. It ceases to be reward-seeking behavior and metamorphoses into equilibrium-maintaining behavior. It transcends our normal systems of reward and deterrence.

For quite some time, we've studied changes in the brain that go along with addictive behaviors - but they've been related to or attributed to the chemistry of the addictive substance in many cases. Over time, common changes have been recognized in the brain that are shared regardless of the substance involved. mctavish's original concern was that these changes that are shared by substance-addicted brains regardless of substance are being observed in people who show signs of addiction despite their addiction not involving a substance.

This is significant in that it demonstrates that addiction is a neurological problem that doesn't necessarily require a chemical introduced into the body to trigger it. It means that we must begin to acknowledge that people who are addicted must be treated for addiction, regardless of what that addiction is.

We can't pooh-pooh their addictions as failures of willpower or weakness of character or lack of intelligence just because a substance isn't involved. We need to take them seriously and help them instead of giving them pep talks and platitudes, because as addicts, they will not be able to simply fix themselves if their addiction has altered their brains.

mildadhd
03-22-13, 10:49 PM
So if a person is addicted to something that isn't chemical, -Amtram


Amtram,

All Addictions are "chemical".


Less obvious but no less physiological are the effects on the brain of self-stimulating behaviors.

The gambler and the sexaholic,

the compulsive shopper and the man or woman who insists on skiing uncharted glaciers are all looking for the same hit of dopamine and endorphins that the ingestion of substances gives the drug addict..


..Those of us with attention deficit disorder love dopamine and endorphins.




Gabor Mate M.D., Scattered, Addicitons and The ADD Brain, p 298.


See thread link:

http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1462844#post1462844

ana futura
03-22-13, 11:05 PM
The point is that if an addiction is created, and that absent the introduction of a substance there are physiological changes in the brain, there is going to be a problem with withdrawal. This has absolutely nothing to do with society or morality or enlightenment, but with the neurological basis of addiction...

Thank you for this post Amtram. For me I feel like a rat who has been trained to push a certain button and receive juice- it's totally chemical. I'm not hiding from or wallowing in anything.

My addiction just snuck up on me- all of a sudden I noticed that I was feeling strong cravings for this thing, that I didn't want to have. Cravings that I wasn't even aware I could get. It's similar to how many people describe nicotine.

Perhaps when I did let it start getting out of control I was looking to cope with some sort of lacking in my life- but that's gone now, and the addiction remains.

ana futura
03-22-13, 11:08 PM
Amtram,

All Addictions are "chemical".



I understood Amtram to mean addictions to external chemicals vs. internal.

mildadhd
03-22-13, 11:34 PM
I understood Amtram to mean addictions to external chemicals vs. internal.




The physical difficulties directly related to substance withdrawal are specific to the substance. They may mask the fact that there is physical and mental pain created by withdrawal itself. So if a person is addicted to something that isn't chemical, it doesn't mean that withdrawal is easier - it simply isn't complicated by substance-specific discontinuation symptoms. -Amtram


Behavioral addictions are also addiction to "chemical" substances.

The behavioral addict is after a chemical hit of dopamine

just like a person who uses nicotine is after a chemical hit of dopamine.

A behavioral addict is addicted to something chemical.

Just like the substance addict.

Amtram said behavioral addiction is not chemical.

I agree with Amtram that behavioral addiction is as addictive and substance addiction.

Because behavioral addiction is also "chemical".


Examples


A hit of dopamine can come from cannabis or from bungie jumping.


A cocaine addict is after dopamine and endorphins,

and so is a gambler.

SB_UK
03-23-13, 05:22 AM
The point is that if an addiction is created, and that absent the introduction of a substance there are physiological changes in the brain, there is going to be a problem with withdrawal. This has absolutely nothing to do with society or morality or enlightenment, but with the neurological basis of addiction.

The physical difficulties directly related to substance withdrawal are specific to the substance. They may mask the fact that there is physical and mental pain created by withdrawal itself. So if a person is addicted to something that isn't chemical, it doesn't mean that withdrawal is easier - it simply isn't complicated by substance-specific discontinuation symptoms.

Addiction by its very nature removes freedom of choice. Addiction causes its victims to pursue it even when it stops providing the pleasure that it did initially or requires higher and higher amounts of exposure to provide pleasure. It ceases to be reward-seeking behavior and metamorphoses into equilibrium-maintaining behavior. It transcends our normal systems of reward and deterrence.

For quite some time, we've studied changes in the brain that go along with addictive behaviors - but they've been related to or attributed to the chemistry of the addictive substance in many cases. Over time, common changes have been recognized in the brain that are shared regardless of the substance involved. mctavish's original concern was that these changes that are shared by substance-addicted brains regardless of substance are being observed in people who show signs of addiction despite their addiction not involving a substance.

This is significant in that it demonstrates that addiction is a neurological problem that doesn't necessarily require a chemical introduced into the body to trigger it. It means that we must begin to acknowledge that people who are addicted must be treated for addiction, regardless of what that addiction is.

We can't pooh-pooh their addictions as failures of willpower or weakness of character or lack of intelligence just because a substance isn't involved. We need to take them seriously and help them instead of giving them pep talks and platitudes, because as addicts, they will not be able to simply fix themselves if their addiction has altered their brains.

"Many neurons in the anterior cingulate gyrus (ACCg) respond both when monkeys choose a drink for themselves and when they choose to give a drink to another monkey," Platt said. "One might view these as sort of mirror neurons for the reward system."

This comment is consistent with the references above on 'social reward' through the anterior cingulate cortex (gyrus) being our ideal method of obtaining reward
- and physiological/behavioural addictions subverting the sensitivity of the system - requiring more exposure to the 'substances' (chemical/informational) of physiological/behavioural addiction

- and less capable of reward system activation through 'socail reward'.

So - a car is given a fuel allowance of 1 sustainable gallon of vegetable oil daily - which is enough fuel to allow the driver to get as far as he desires.
He then modifies his car to increase its fuel requirements.

The sustainably generated 1 gallon of vegetable oil now is no longer sufficient.

He steals his neighbour's gallon - modifies his car yet further ... ... until he's required to steal the fuel supply of his entire town and instead of a car - is driving around in a wholly unnecessary HGV.

Summarising
Social reward is the only sustainable reward which does not induce tolerance in the machinery (of otherwise) - addiction.

If everybody tuned to social reward - everybody'd be working towards everybody elses' wellbeing - that world could be amazing.

The equivalent of the Internet (so much to see and do) *without* $charge$
- though in the real world.

In the 'real' world - nothing is available for free.

Days out 'for free' can only be spent in expensive shopping malls.
But if you're not yet wise - an expensive shopping mall will drive 'you' mad in desire.
And if you are wise - then you won't be able to visit any such place.

What a mess!

-*-

So - activation of reward is essential for survival.
Barliman has referenced a transgenic model knock-out for an essential component of 'reward' in which the animal could not even motivate to eat food right in front of animal's face.
Activation of reward (the mechanism of action of ALL addictions (bad)) must occur sustainably (without inducing tolerance).
I'm pretty sure that 'social reward' (exactly as described above in the monkey) is the only way of doing that.
Behavioural addictions which society pushes (eating lots,gaining money,fame,Uni certificates etc) all blunt the reward system.

Now - can we call 'social reward' an addiction ? (referencing Amtram)
It activates the same basic pathways as addiction.
But but but - it won't lead to blunting of the system/resistance/tolerance ... ... and so where it may be called 'addictive' (ie you're drawn to it) - I don't think it's addictive (more formally) (see Amtram-Ana Futura earlier in this thread.)

SB_UK
03-23-13, 06:16 AM
Basic points


You need reward - but the mode of access to that reward is defined.
The mode of access to that reward must steer us away from behavioural/physiological addictions - which ties into religion's (had a nice dexcription of Islam's attitude to drugs in A&E a couple of days ago) general view.
The basic neurological mechanism which allows us to obtain social reward ("mirror neurons for the reward system") appears to greatly pre-date the emergence of modern man.
We must be able (if animals are able) to obtain reward through this system from a relatively early age.
It'd be nice to suggest that since 'social reward' and self-awareness [~animals passing mirror test (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test#Animal_species_capable_of_passing)~] are paired functions - since these properties are gained at about the same time - and the suggestion that self-awareness is only possible if the construct observing self is 'higher' than material self -that is- that the mind is at a hierarchically higher viewpoint than body.
Now - what's the problem with obtaining only social reward - well - you're dead without food ... ... (see Barliman transgenic expt) - there has to be a motivation (throughout growth) for the individual to eat.
This represents the need for stimulation (blood glucose elevation) - which runs in parallel with growth (ending upon completion of mind).
So - we've a material world reward system (primitive) required to drive us (mind) to completion and a social world reward system (higher) - where one (primitive) is meant to fade out from birth to 'wisdom' and the other (of the mind/social mind/social species/collective ability to pass the mirror test around 18 months of age is meant to take over).
So - two essential reward systems (blood glucose elevation and social reward) in place - where the consequence of completing mind and shifting wholly to social reward - unsurprisingly manifests itself as a resistance to those previous stimulations (types of food which raise blood glucose) to which we were drawn.
Higher reward can be obtained through mind alone upon completion (eg enlightened prophet) or it can scale further in triplets (mother-father-child) to generate a species in the 'same' basic place.
I can't find anything motivational to do in the planet we're in - the sole aim appears to be to drive a switch in society to a happy, sustainable, hierarchy-less one.
Now - I think that in that world - that there won't actually need to be anything that we're (referencing ADDers particularly) required to do, to be happy - since I can see that I don't need anything to succeed in to be sufficiently happy.
What ADDers do - is fall victim to addiction through stress destroying our sensitive social organism reward machinery.
So - are we also required to engage in the battle between primitive and higher reward mechanism - I think not, in a fair societal infrastructure.
In a fair societal infrastructure - we won't be stressed - will be fine - and will stay within our new physiological bounds of ketogenic metabolism/aerobic exercise punctuated by bouts of exercise 'to exhaustion'.
So - pure existence being sufficient for us (ADDers) to exist happily - with the requirements for our physiological functioning being, and simply, those factors which research shows increases longevity (exercise, proper organic MUFA vegan low carb ketogenic diet, stretch yoga, etc) and being someplace on the 'do no harm' spectrum [socail reward activation] - where 'doing as much species-level good as possible' sounds like a plan.

Summarising
Then - how do we obtain reward without inducing tolerance in that neurochemical system ?


2 basic system in place at birth (shared with the animal kingdom)
- [a] blood glucose elevation and [b] social reward.
[A] Maintain ketogenic diet in [B] an environment without stress to stabilize blood glucose levels - and [C] avoid all of the behavioural/physiological addictions (Gabor Mate describes these (the drive for money,power,ownership,status,pinnacle in hierarchy) - alongside the classical behavioural/physiological ones), to avoid inducing tolerance in the 1 underlying neurochemical addictive mechanism.
At completion of mind addictive propensity lost - and individual shifts entire focus for reward from primitive (blood glucose) onto higher (social) reward system.
No tolerance inducing addiction can, any longer, affect us - stimulation appears to induce an aversive reaction.
The higher reward system can reward an individual (eg the prophets of Eastern religion) - but that's not much use to a species - though can scale in triplets (involving pair-bonds) to 'protect' a species.
Generation of a social species.
Where - the children of that species find themselves in a happy place, regardless of achievement - as long as they're allowed to maintain physiological bounds see POINT 2 above.

SB_UK
03-23-13, 06:32 AM
Where's the hole in this idea ?



The idea places ADDer as novel type - fixedly social and perfectly functional in a hierarchy-less society (hence signature).
We know that there's a mechanism for ADDer receiving reward in this mode.
We all know that there's nothing worth achieving ('To aspire to becoming the next President of America' isn't motivational - when our greatest minds (Chomsky,Greer) are screaming out our need to abolish government by elite).
What's worth achieving is simply a removal of any parts of global infrastructure which prevent equality - though it's difficult to call this motivational - it's simply necessary to allow Point 1.
So - will ADDers still need to complete mind in order to kill of primitive reward system addictive propensity ?
Yes - but that's not hard.
ADDers still need to undergo enlightenment (have our primitive reward system activation remain necessary) - however - that's not a problem as long as we're not inducing tolerance in the system by engaging in all of the behavioural/physiological addictions (Gabor Mate describes these (the drive for money,power,ownership,status,pinnacle in hierarchy) - alongside the classical behavioural/physiological ones), to avoid inducing tolerance in the 1 underlying neurochemical addictive mechanism.
However - in a world without psychosocial stress - in a world of equality - we won't be driven, nor have the option (in many cases) to follow the path of those truly addictive mechanisms.
As we realise - the core impulse driving people into stress-relief and then addiction is stress - and this is eliminated in a hierarchyless world, where equality is 'enforced'.

So - what you appear to be saying is that ADDers are perfectly fine in a fair societal infrastructure - can gain what reward we/they need in a fair societal infrastructure
- exactly as you'd expect from a social species
... ... however, that, it all goes wrong - when we force ADDers to behave immorally.

Increasing tendency to morality (with mind) cannot do enforced immorality.

SB_UK
03-23-13, 06:42 AM
Problem - when reality is this simple to understand (just 1 basic progression ((3 fermions -> boson) -> 3 fermions to ... ... ) - and if ADDers are born into fixed blood glucose levels (resistance to stimulation)
- then it's hardly as if the construction of mind is that big a deal any more.

The model of reality which groups prior to ADDer have been working towards, is in place
- mostly solved by the physicist of the 20th century.

What are you trying to suggest ?

That the whole abstraction layer of mind is moot to ADDer - it's just not very difficult to work out where we came from - and where we're going.
What we are ... ... how we came to be it ... ... and how we're developing.

Meaning ?
That ADDers have transcended the classical aim in life of acquiring mind (wisdom) - for generating an actual social species.
That is - that pouring knowledge into mind to generate enlightenment - isn't that big a deal any more.
We're being motivated to (via double pair-bond) to form the species level structure.

Struggled with this idea for a while now - the relationship between mind and pair-bond - where I think the answer appears to be that enlightenment is a precursor in pair-bond formation - mini-social structure formation - which can scale - and which when it envelops the species - results in the species being happy without the need to achieve anything.

But do we have to work towards this - or will it simply happen.

I think it'll simply happen in a fair societal infrastructure - the social organism is just that - they don't have to work towards being social - they're defined as such.

And what then ? for ADDers.
Reward from the pursuit of quality ?

Is that social ?
Electronics generating a high quality music reproduction device and musicians generating high quality music to put onto the device.
Electronics and music given away for free.
Sounds social.

So - are you suggesting that you are now addicted to ever mounting informational quality ?
That is - that there's an 'addiction' to quality.

That's an interesting question.

SB_UK
03-23-13, 07:01 AM
The social organism/species gains sufficient reward from behaving socially.
It's enough.

OK - so what do you want ?
Nothing other than the sun.

So - why don't you want informational quality ?
Just don't seem to need anything other than the sun.

So - has the species hit a brick wall and is no longer evolving ?
That doesn't sound likely - since 'creator' is evolutionary imperative and we're clearly surfing the wave-front of creation.

Not good enough - where's there scope for evolution in a social species - ADDer ?
Well - this is a little speculative - but it would be nice (and very social) - if people'd all go off and develop their own experience (jumping out of an aeroplane, painting a picture, playing in an orchestra)
- and people could simply slip into the experiential perspective of the person.

That human beings are evolving towards sliding completely into the experriential perspective of another person.
Being the person (in real-time) - being another person in real-time.

That'd be a very social and very attractive next stage of evolution for man.

And the nice thing about it is - that we'd all want all the rest of us to be as good as they can be - for purely social 'selfish' reasons of hitching a real-time ringside 'first person' experiential perspective in on his/her special 'kung fu'.

Just trying to work out whether that's possible.

To feel what another is feeling by 'mirroring' ... ... ... why not ?

But - just to return to McT's basic point and a thoroughly uncontroversial idea - and simplifying right back.

Summary

1. Addiction is bad.
2. Reward system activation is essential.
3. Need activation without tolerance - where only social reward can achieve that goal.
4. Social reward cannot be obtained in a stress*ful world of inequality.
5. All that then happens - is the stress-sensitive (to blood glucose variation) 'lotus children' break.

*

One of the common underlying biological dysfunctions found in virtually all children with chronic illnesses is something known as “immune dysregulation.”Chronic stress (http://www.apa.org/research/action/immune.aspx) (tolerance to cortisol) does that.

SB_UK
03-23-13, 09:20 AM
So - & finally ... ... What truly frightens me about the "environment" we live in is everything.

We need total replacement of the current global $ocietal infrastructure for another - one which eliminates human hierarchy.

One quark is the 'same' as (of equivalent importance to) the next quark ... ... so must it be for man.

Equality as root to alleviation of suffering.Liberty (freedom (from addictive propensity) = 'free will') occurs soon after.

Fraternity ('enforced moral consistency') - then a fixed attribute of man.

liberté, égalité, fraternité->- to ->-égalité, liberté, fraternité

Amtram
03-23-13, 10:51 AM
Addiction is not the same as reward. You can't associate normal reward reactions with addiction and propose that they work the same and will respond to the same stimuli and be just as easy to alter.

And ana was spot-on - mctavish was talking about addiction to things that were not chemicals introduced into the body.

The topic was that addiction to playing video games or addiction to websurfing or addiction to social media produced the same changes to the cerebral cortex that addiction to chemical substances like cigarettes or alcohol or drugs did. The chemicals in question were the ones being put into the body, not the ones being produced by the body.

Addiction is nothing like pleasure. Someone who is addicted to something is not pursuing it to fulfill a desire, and cannot simply leave off to find something more positively gratifying. ana futura made a very good point earlier about testing your ability to step away from the computer (or the phone, or the game system. . .) She stated, and I believe that you will find other people who are truly addicted to something in agreement, that it is actually physically painful to do this, and that there is no simple substitution that will distract from this pain or reduce it. She also said, and again, other addicts will concur, that she doesn't get on the computer because she really, really loves it so much that it gives her pleasure. It's a compulsion. The pleasure derived becomes less and less the more you indulge in the object of your addiction.

Changing society is not going to change addiction. It's unrelated, and completely disconnected from the topic of this thread. "being drawn to" something is to addiction as healthy diet is to anorexia. i.e., you can't compare normal reward/aversion responses to addiction. Addiction completely subverts these normal responses.

SB_UK
03-23-13, 10:52 AM
The difference was striking, with the Web users displaying fundamentally altered prefrontal cortexes.

http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/v16/n2/full/nn.3287.html
In this network of received (OFC) [FRONTAL CORTEX] and foregone (ACCs) [ANTERIOR CINGULATE CORTEX] reward signaling ... ...Social organism formation by strengthening ACCs and weakening OFC ?

A reward system for a social species which is actually wired to the phrase -
'better to give than to receive'.

-*-

Actual central changes required in social species formation - changes centre on the mechanism of derivation of reward.

SB_UK
03-23-13, 11:07 AM
Changing society is not going to change addiction.

It's unrelated, and completely disconnected from the topic of this thread.

~s (http://alcoholism.about.com/cs/alerts/l/blnaa32.htm)~ Human research to clarify the connection between alcohol and stress usually has been conducted using either population surveys based on subject self-reports or experimental studies. In many but not all of these studies, individuals report that they drink in response to stress and do so for a variety of reasons. Studies ind icate that people drink as a means of coping with economic stress, job stress, and marital problems, often in the absence of social support, and that the more severe and chronic the stressor, the greater the alcohol consumption ... ... Eliminate stress (by changing societal infrastructure) - eliminate the need for stress-relief.

Job done ??

Amtram
03-23-13, 11:11 AM
Every addiction starts off with pleasure. Gradually, the addict needs more and more of the stimulus to experience pleasure. As it continues, the motivation ceases to be the pursuit of pleasure and becomes the avoidance of pain (from withdrawal or from facing the issues the addiction helps the addict avoid, or from fear of not knowing how to cope without the stimulus.) This is the common progression of addictive behaviors, whether related to substances or not.

SB_UK
03-23-13, 11:35 AM
I just can't see the need for reaching out for 'pleasure' in the absence of pain/stress.

In much the same way that we don't eat when we're not hungry.

It feels like pleasure is the two-faced twin brother of pain.

Overcome one, overcome the other.

Funny how alluring pleasure [addictive] can, though, be.

Amtram
03-23-13, 01:00 PM
I just can't see the need for reaching out for 'pleasure' in the absence of pain/stress.

In much the same way that we don't eat when we're not hungry.

It feels like pleasure is the two-faced twin brother of pain.

Overcome one, overcome the other.

Funny how alluring pleasure [addictive] can, though, be.

So, you can't see anyone playing a musical instrument except as an escape from pain? Nobody wants to call friends on the phone because they enjoy conversation, only because it's an escape from stress? People try new foods not because they like experiencing different flavors, but because they're avoiding something unpleasant? If we didn't hate bad weather or being indoors, we'd never take a walk on a warm, sunny day? That seems pretty extreme.

meadd823
03-23-13, 01:14 PM
I would like to as gently as possible ask that consideration be given to those who need their information in a semi-concise manner. If you want your posting to be read by ADDF members who are actually seeking to understand what it is you are saying please do your best to condense your ideas so they can be digested by the average ADDF member {and dyslexic moderator}.


Too much information thrown about to quickly often serves to dilute any points you are trying to make. Information over load has created conflicts, accusations and thread derailments.


While posting and interaction is at the heart of our support community so is consideration for your fellow members. Interaction requires no less than two participants otherwise one is merely talking to themselves.



Ohh I almost forgot:

Please stay on topic. This is about our physical / social environment / emotional reactions to technology additions and I have allowed for other side discussions such as the physical chemical changes of other types of addictions and the difference between pleasure seeking, pain avoidance as they apply to development of addictive behaviors because I see them to be relevant but please folks can we remember this discussion is about technology addiction and it's effects on the human brain.

Spiritual discussions will be split off and moved to the appropriate section.

Okay now I am done - I think

SB_UK
03-23-13, 01:17 PM
So, you can't see anyone playing a musical instrument except as an escape from pain? Nobody wants to call friends on the phone because they enjoy conversation, only because it's an escape from stress? People try new foods not because they like experiencing different flavors, but because they're avoiding something unpleasant? If we didn't hate bad weather or being indoors, we'd never take a walk on a warm, sunny day? That seems pretty extreme.

Thinking ... ... I don't yet know the answer to this question.

Can we derive pleasure from something without developing addiction ?

If we look at the image of 'enlightenment' - there's no desire for pleasure from speaking, eating, playing an instrument [your examples].

However ... ... I think that sun exposure may be physiologically required.

I don't think that it's possible to escape the need for a basal level of food and the sun (UV,heat).

SB_UK
03-23-13, 01:22 PM
[1] I'm trying to get the point out - that addiction is bad, but that reward system activation is necessary.
[2] I'm trying to make the point that what is addictive - far transcends what we think of as addictive - drugs, alcohol etc.. and takes in the drive for money, ownership, power.
[3] I think I'm trying to make the point that 'giving without receiving' is the one mechanism of reward system activation which does not induce tolerance.

meadd823
03-23-13, 02:49 PM
The splint- off portions of this thread can be found here (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142474)

I decided to keep both threads in this section as opposed to moving the other to the spiritual section as it really isn't a spiritually supportive discussion but more in line with the purpose of this section

While this thread is to discuss technology addiction as it pertains to changes n the human brain along with related off shoots mentioned in the last moderator post , the portions dealing with certain actions often associated with religion but are not necessarily religious in and of themselves {ie meditation} and their effects upon behaviors, human brain biology, ect. .. is to be discussed in the portion split off and hyperlinked above.


It is my hope that by splitting the two discussion all parties involved can enjoy the freedom to pursue topics of interest without denying other member the same right via derailing this thread.

As per Usual


*** Should you have any questions concerns or complaints regarding any moderator actions please do so via private message to avoid derailing this thread ***





. . .

mildadhd
03-23-13, 04:50 PM
social rejection



(p 150) There is no addiction center in the brain,

no circuits designated strictly for addictive purposes.

The brain systems involved in addiction are among the key organizers and motivators of human emotional life and behavior;

hence, addiction's powerful hold on human beings.

Three major networks are involved...the opioid apparatus,

the dopamine system (which performs incentive-motivation functions)

and the self-regulation system in the cortex, or gray matter.

The defining molecules of the opioid apparatus are the brain's "natural narcotics"--endorphins.




(p 154-155) Anatomically, physical pain is registered in one part of the brain,

the thalamus,

but its subjective impact is experienced in another part,

the anterior cingulate cortex, or ACC.

The brain gets the pain message in the thalamus,

but "feels" it in the ACC.

This latter area "lights up", or is activated,

when we are reacting to the pain stimulus.

And it's in the cortex--the ACC and elsewhere-

-that opiates help us endure pain by reducing not its physical but emotional impact.



A recent imaging study showed that the ACC also "lights up" when people feel the pain of social rejection. (*11)

The brains of healthy adult volunteers were scanned as they were mentally participating in a game and then suddenly "excluded".

Even this mild and obviously artificial "rejection" lit up the ACC and caused feelings of hurt.

In other words,

we "feel" physical and emotional pain in the same part of the brain--and that in turn,

is crucial to our bonding with others who are important to us.

In normal circumstances,

the emotional pain of separation keeps us close to each other when we most need that closeness.


Gabor Mate M.D., "In The Realm Of Hungry Ghosts", p154-155

SB_UK
03-23-13, 05:54 PM
we "feel" physical and emotional pain in the same part of the brain [ACC]

That's interesting.

Amtram
03-23-13, 05:56 PM
There doesn't need to be an "addiction center" in the brain for addiction to exist. There are changes in the amygdala and the hippocampus in addiction. There are changes in dopamine and norepinephrine levels in addiction.

SB_UK
03-23-13, 06:18 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotional_self-regulation
Emotional self-regulation means how an individual responds to emotion.

Sufficient evidence in multiple studies has correlated emotion regulation to particular patterns of prefrontal activation.These regions include the orbital prefrontal cortex, the ventromedial prefrontal cortex, and the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex. Additional brain structures that have been found to contribute are the amygdala and the anterior cingulate cortex.

FC and ACC again.

SB_UK
03-23-13, 06:28 PM
The thing is - is that I can't see the need for pleasure (dopamine) eg blood glucose elevation / stimulation and I don't feel pain (social exclusion) either.

Am perfectly happy to be without stimulation and without any physical social contact - in fact - detest physical social contact (excluding pair-bonded partner).

Dislike stimulation - detest physical social contact.

I think people usually like stimulation and a physical world social life.

mildadhd
03-23-13, 07:05 PM
The thing is - is that I can't see the need for pleasure (dopamine) eg blood glucose elevation / stimulation and I don't feel pain (social exclusion) either.

Am perfectly happy to be without stimulation and without any physical social contact - in fact - detest physical social contact (excluding pair-bonded partner).

Dislike stimulation - detest physical social contact.

I think people usually like stimulation and a physical world social life.



Interesting.

I have the feeling I am more the opposite in some ways?

I do like privacy?

Will need to try and eat something next time I hurt myself.

See what happens?

Some people have to much and some people have to little.

I guess nobody is the exact same either?

Experiences and predisposition?


I want to but have a hard time with anxiety.

.

.

mildadhd
03-23-13, 07:51 PM
There doesn't need to be an "addiction center" in the brain for addiction to exist. There are changes in the amygdala and the hippocampus in addiction. There are changes in dopamine and norepinephrine levels in addiction.


The the whole brain and body would be affected in addiction in some way.

Environmental cues have a huge influence in relapse (memory)

As well as social stress, emotional pain etc.

Primary Emotional systems involves lower, mid and higher brain.

Just like ADD.




.

someothertime
03-23-13, 08:18 PM
Compulsion to addiction is linked with our ability to process emotion....most notably, our ability to soothe ourselves.....which from my understanding, is largely related to the nurturing process in infancy

ana futura
03-23-13, 08:29 PM
Compulsion to addiction is linked with our ability to process emotion....most notably, our ability to soothe ourselves.....which from my understanding, is largely related to the nurturing process in infancy

Yes, but compulsion to addiction is a different thing than addiction.

This study found that socially isolated rats were more prone to addiction, and that their addictions were harder to break.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/01/130123165040.htm

But you can still create a chemical addiction in any person or animal through repeated exposure to a substance.

The point of this discussion, is that the dopamine produced in our brains by our interactions with the web can lead to a very simple, physical addiction to dopamine release, even when there are no compounding social factors. It is about exposure and quantity.

True, people who are socially isolated are more likely to expose themselves to huge amounts of screen time in the first place.

But in my opinion, the main issue here is not what initally drives people to their behaviors, but what is it about some behaviors that make them harder to break than others.

I really like hanging out with my cats, and I seek solace in them when I am sad. I am not however, chemically addicted to them.

ana futura
03-23-13, 08:33 PM
Many things appear to have "addictive" potential, but some have more innate addictive potential than others. The internet appears to be at the top of the addictive potential heap, right there with nicotine and crack (no joke).

In other words: the internet, like a pack of cigarettes or lots of cocaine, lets you just sit in a room and repeatedly trigger reward chemicals that, back in the environment of our evolution, you could trigger only with more work and only less frequently. That's why an internet habit, like a cocaine habit, can reach dysfunctional levels.

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/09/why-we-all-have-internet-addiction-genes/262112/

Amtram
03-23-13, 08:34 PM
From PLoS blogs, A "Kindling Model of the Development of Addiction" (http://blogs.plos.org/mindthebrain/2012/12/06/a-kindling-model-of-the-development-of-addiction/) which explains the connection of addiction with the amygdala. And, from the same author, an explanation of addiction as an extreme of a normal function, but not a disease (http://blogs.plos.org/mindthebrain/2012/11/12/why-addiction-is-not-a-brain-disease/), loaded with useful links in the text as well.

The action described is very much like the norepinephrine and reward salience that ana futura posted in another thread - the desensitization of dopamine response results in extreme salience for the object of the addiction, turning a want into a craving.

From the second article (hyperlinks disabled, but visit the article to see them):

I won’t try to summarize all the terms and concepts used to define addiction as a disease, but Steven Hyman, M.D., previous director of NIMH and Provost of Harvard University, does a good job of it. His argument, which reflects the view of the medical community more generally (e.g., NIMH, NIDA, the American Medical Association), is that addiction is a condition that changes the way the brain works, just like diabetes changes the way the pancreas works.

Nora Volkow M.D. (the director of NIDA) agrees. Going back to the NIDA site, “Brain-imaging studies from drug-addicted individuals show physical changes in areas of the brain that are critical for judgment, decisionmaking, learning and memory, and behavior control.”

Specifically, the dopamine system is altered so that only the substance of choice is capable of triggering dopamine release to the nucleus accumbens (NAC), also referred to as the ventral striatum, while other potential rewards do so less and less. The NAC is responsible for goal-directed behaviour and for the motivation to pursue goals.

mildadhd
03-23-13, 10:10 PM
I think that these topics would best be understood in a discussion primarily about brain development before the age of 4.


"The motor responses of smiling can be activated via the hypothalamic outflow to the brain-stem nuclei serving in control of muscles of expression."


-The Physiology Coloring Book: Kapit/Macey/Meisami, (Nervous System) Emotions, Instinct & The Limbic System, p 108.

Tyler Durden
03-23-13, 11:12 PM
Freed yet enslaved by technology, irony knows no bounds.

SB_UK
03-24-13, 06:47 AM
Specifically, the dopamine system is altered so that only the substance of choice is capable of triggering dopamine release to the nucleus accumbens (NAC), also referred to as the ventral striatum, while other potential rewards do so less and less.
Exactly.
Take the path to addiction (on any level) and the path from primitive (growth permissive - blood glucose elevation - stimulation) to higher (social) (reward system activation by higher, social means) just cannot occur.

The point I'm making is that we need a social global societal infrastructure to welcome people into the end-point of the human life-cycle of transition from primitive to higher reward system.

The societal infrastructure must be in parallel with social reward system - to allow us to fall into it.

It's really very difficult to obtain reward from social existence - if everybody one encounters sees you as the main course in their next Sunday roast.

SB_UK
03-24-13, 06:55 AM
I think that these topics would best be understood in a discussion primarily about brain development before the age of 4.



-The Physiology Coloring Book: Kapit/Macey/Meisami, (Nervous System) Emotions, Instinct & The Limbic System, p 108.

Since Ana Futura is talking about an actual addiciton.
It follows that anything that makes addictive propensity more striking would apply.
And it certainly seems as though (from the idea of stress deranging the ROFC - a key neuroanatomical localization of the primitive reward mechanism (ie 'receiving' not 'giving')) ... ... would apply here.

However - addiction can presumably be forced at any age - dependent on level of stress/pain - the individual is put under.

The earlier ... ... presumably the more deranged the machinery - the more the 'vicious sycle' is embedded in mind.

SB_UK
03-24-13, 07:05 AM
Freed yet enslaved by technology, irony knows no bounds.

I think that we're being freed by social interaction (using technology) rather than technology itself.
The ability to shift out of real-time communication and to reference comments is essential for me - and so the importance of technology shouldn't be understated.
Also - needs to be mentioned that technology (serving a very special purpose) will actually - when it has served a specific purpose - cease to matter so much.

Thing about hardware which I can't stand is our inability to re-hash it ... ... that is to machine a replacement part and slide it onto the motherboard.
Hate dependency on black boxes.
This 'dependency' is lessened in software - where we manufacture 'words' with requirement only for mind ... ... however! ... ... software without hardware ... ... just thinking - could live with the dependency if the hardware is very specially constructed - bullet proof? future proof? fully recycle-able? low power consumption? infinitely upgradable without manipulation? ... ...
Hate black 'hands off' boxes.

Software's elegant ... ... hardware's so very stone age :-).

I'm looking to throw away everything (techy etc) - and can do it - as soon as the 1 idea in congealed blood red from falling on your face on top of Francis Crick (below) is understood.

So - we're freed by rational, moral, social communication using technology ... ... with liberation resulting in freedom from all sorts of things - including technolgy - since there's an end-point to completion of mind (what social communication achieves) - the 'world' of people become your 'accessible' teachers.

Imagine - in the real world - spending time trying to drill down on just 1 word being used in a sentence (eg relationship,disorder)
- the lack of precision in the word - in real-time location ... is lost - to a flood of other words.

It's great being able to reference every single idea expressed.

It's great that an idea takes longer to express (in writing rather than speech) - making (through economy of effort) - the individual drill down, as concisely as possible on what s/he's trying to say.

-*-

The summary of what I'm trying to say (over the last 10 years) is that inequality in societal infrastructure is the fundamental causative agent in human suffering (disease, disorder etc ... ... ...)
Correct that - and all else (an alleviation of human suffering) - will follow.

100% environmental - the ailments of man.

someothertime
03-24-13, 07:09 AM
I see web-surfing is masturbation of the mind... perhaps many studies on masturbation / sex addiction can add to your argument / understanding?

Our society created a value system that attempted to regulate harmful ( excessive - indiscriminate ) sexual behavior. The web has prevailed in a time where communal value systems continue to degrade and it's use ( abuse ) is generally performed solely.

How can one self regulate without an accompanying value system? What if any positive impacts will we see in the evolutionary wiring of the human brain from discussed behaviors?

SB_UK
03-24-13, 07:46 AM
I see web-surfing is masturbation of the mind... perhaps many studies on masturbation / sex addiction can add to your argument / understanding?

Our society created a value system that attempted to regulate harmful ( excessive - indiscriminate ) sexual behavior. The web has prevailed in a time where communal value systems continue to degrade and it's use ( abuse ) is generally performed solely.

How can one self regulate without an accompanying value system? What if any positive impacts will we see in the evolutionary wiring of the human brain from discussed behaviors?

Can't we simplify by putting all addictive behaviours eg harmful ( excessive - indiscriminate ) sexual behavior under 1 general heading ?
No matter which we choose - they're all convergent on the same basic neurochemical system (reward) to counter (chronic) pain/stress.
I'm questioning whether it's helpful to list out each and every addictive behaviour.
It's the same basic underlying solution to all.

The web has prevailed in a time where communal value systems continue to degrade and it's use ( abuse ) is generally performed solely. That's interesting - hasn't the web gained traction (virtual society formation) just as real world society interaction has died out.

So - people generally bemoan the loss of community - but what we're actually observing is transition from local into global community.

Local community no longer cuts it - to a mind which is making the leap from local to globally connected network.
Global village construction (societal infrastructure) via global internet to assist in generation of a globally connected system network of mind (of man).

Now that sounds like it's a bit wooo! ... ... but ask anybody here ... ... if it's possible to live anywhere on the planet without being affected by neighbouring communities and we'll all state no - everybody is affected by everybody else - the awareness that this is true heralds the individual shifting into a model of reality for existence which is 'global' rather than 'local' in scope ... ...
what I'm trying to suggest is that the common-sensical statement that we can be affected by anybody else in the world ... ... rather than the precursor - we can only be affected by anybody else within our localized tribe ... ... reflects an underlying change in the scope of mind
- from 'local centric' to 'global centric'
- reflecting - an underlying network structure forming in order to support this notion.

Of course - this idea extends to take in all animals can affect us all, all Universal events can affect us all ... ... all reflecting the generation of a shared model of understanding of reality (between all people) which sees interconnectedness in Universal phenomenology.

That is - that we can infer from the shifting nature of our world-view - that the structure of mind which confers world-view must be changing accordingly from local parochial to fully connected Universal in scope.

Summarising
The Internet is a tool which over a relatively small type results in fast-tracking human evolution by assisting us to converge on a model of reality in which we see that there's interconnectivity underlying all Universal phenomena.
It's very difficult - given this vision - to pursue a life of aspiring to be the workfloor supervisor in a cardboard box factory, to earn just that little bit more money to affort a Ford Focus GHIA instead of a GLS.
All ridiculous - all just another face of addiction (to materialism in this case).
Understanding our context sweeps aside the (alluer of the) addictive haze operating through subverting the primitive reward mechanism - and opens the door to reward through social reward mechanism.

As demonstrated in the higher primates - the social reward system of - 'it is better to give than receive' - achieving activation of our own reward system (giver) via the mirror reward neurones of the Anterior cingulate cortex.
As Francis Crick suggests - this transition of primitive to social reward system occurs in line with the acquisition of free will.

To be properly human is to seize the new (higher,social) reward system.

It's lovely.