View Full Version : Chronic Pain and how to recuperate?


MellyFishButt
04-07-13, 12:12 AM
Hi folks dealing with chronic pain. A few of you have given me some wonderful suggestions and I wanted to share something that I started doing yesterday that really helped.

Swimming!

None of the professionals had suggested it but kept telling me that I needed to go about my daily life and to stop when I had pain. The problem was that I have pain 24/7 now. It's still not diagnosed and frankly nobody seems to care about that detail except for me.

My issue is severe muscle tension near my thoracic spine, possibly a bulging disc. The pain radiates across my sacrum, tailbone, hips and nerve pain down my legs, and has started affecting my neck and shoulders this week. There really is no position that relieves it, including laying down. I am taking pain meds, muscle relaxers, NSAIDs along with my mental health arsenal. None of these are helping. So I thought of the one way I could build strength without putting weight on my spine and it worked. In fact, its now the only time I don't have pain. Not even a little bit! :)

Just wanted to share for those who are stuck in that same 'in a lot of pain and its not going away' cycle.

sarahsweets
04-07-13, 06:27 AM
hey melly, have you thought about some yoga too? it doesnt have to be some crazy birkram(?) yoga where you you do it in 100 degrees,but a decent yoga class lets you work at your own pace. It helped me recover from a surgery and helps make your as* look sexy.

MellyFishButt
04-07-13, 12:02 PM
I'm all about my *** lookin' hot in some jeans!! I have and I hate yoga. With the passion of 10 fiery hells. BUT, I know I need to do something. I think I am going to stick with swimming 3-4 days a week and then adding yoga. The main issue right now is anything that is upright so as long as I can build some core while I am swimming I think I should be able to handle it in a few weeks. Thanks Sarah. :) What was your surgery?

Kunga Dorji
04-07-13, 09:59 PM
Hi folks dealing with chronic pain. A few of you have given me some wonderful suggestions and I wanted to share something that I started doing yesterday that really helped.

Swimming!

None of the professionals had suggested it but kept telling me that I needed to go about my daily life and to stop when I had pain. The problem was that I have pain 24/7 now. It's still not diagnosed and frankly nobody seems to care about that detail except for me.

My issue is severe muscle tension near my thoracic spine, possibly a bulging disc. The pain radiates across my sacrum, tailbone, hips and nerve pain down my legs, and has started affecting my neck and shoulders this week. There really is no position that relieves it, including laying down. I am taking pain meds, muscle relaxers, NSAIDs along with my mental health arsenal. None of these are helping. So I thought of the one way I could build strength without putting weight on my spine and it worked. In fact, its now the only time I don't have pain. Not even a little bit! :)

Just wanted to share for those who are stuck in that same 'in a lot of pain and its not going away' cycle.

I have had similar issues for years.
The first big breakthrough was correction of a malaligned joint between the neck and the base of the skull.
That fixed the headaches and got rid of most of the "ADD fog", but I had residual low back (sacral area) and right thoracic (paraspinous) pain.

I had attributed it to osteoarthritis in the thoracic spine and to pain from a severe old disc injury at the base of the spine.

I came across some information about sacro-occipital chiropractic in late January, went for an assessment, and have just completed 7 weeks of intensive treatment.

The pain was coming from a sprained and loose sacro-iliac joint, which in turn caused a scoliosis in my spine - manifesting as an excessive hunching of my thoracic spine and pain in the area of the upper right paraspinous muscles.

The result is now- minimal pain, and a much less marked stress response (the spinal curvature was directly activating my stress response by acting on sympathetic nerve tracts in the spinal cord, and directly irritating sympathetic ganglia (clusters of nerve cells) that lay close to the malpositioned areas in the spine.

I work as a doctor- and the official line has always been that all this chiropractic stuff is nonsense, but clearly I now disagree. It is so clear to me now that most of the thrust of standard medical management of back pain completely misses some of the most important causative mechanisms.

The swimming you are doing will help strengthen your core, but I have also been advised to do plenty of walking, and yoga or pilates, and later some upper body weights.

My long experience with back pain (started age 23- now 51 years old) is that the wrong exercise can be very troublesome when there is an underlying structural issue.

immabum
04-08-13, 12:46 PM
Assuming the sinister stuff has been investigated (no fever,chills,night sweats weight loss? No change in bowel/bladder function?)
- you could consider trigger point injections. If the pain is shooting/burning/neuropathic in nature -could consider gabapentim/low dose tca. Have you tried traction?

In regards to chiro- it has shown efficacy for low back pain. Carotid artery dissection and stroke from a loosened neck plaque scare me- so if you're older I would be aware of those risks.

MellyFishButt
04-08-13, 01:42 PM
I'm 33 so no worries there!

I have to say that two days after swimming and my lower back had dissipated some. The neck not so much but I am hoping its just a stress response.

My plan is to swim for this month and then add yoga next month. I'm hopeful that this does the trick. If I don't find any long term progression by May 15, I will likely go the shot route. Im a little scared of chiro, i admit. My biggest fear is that its something serious and life-long and that correction needs to happen now but nobody is bothering to diagnose. :(

immabum
04-08-13, 07:11 PM
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/chirostroke.html

Low odds but never in the clear -youngest pt was 21.

Kunga Dorji
04-08-13, 07:46 PM
Assuming the sinister stuff has been investigated (no fever,chills,night sweats weight loss? No change in bowel/bladder function?)
- you could consider trigger point injections. If the pain is shooting/burning/neuropathic in nature -could consider gabapentim/low dose tca. Have you tried traction?

In regards to chiro- it has shown efficacy for low back pain. Carotid artery dissection and stroke from a loosened neck plaque scare me- so if you're older I would be aware of those risks.

Actually in Canada it is now regarded as the treatment of choice.
Incidence of significant adverse events is extraordinarily low compared to Western Medicine.
Current techniques are extremely gentle and forceful manipulations are very rarely used.

Most treatments consist of low impact, well localised pressure on the tendons of critical muscles, allowing a re-set of Golgi pressure/tension receptors within those tendons, and unlocking the muscular tension that maintains the "subluxations" and abnormal postures.

Any good current chiropractor should be able to reference the risks of any treatments they use- in fact those risks were referenced in a consent form that I signed prior to treatment.

immabum
04-08-13, 08:22 PM
Sorry...the neck manipulations? Or chiro for the back?
Neither is 1st line treatment of choice from a MD. Can it be used together ? Sure.

Not that Cochrane reviews ever gives a solid thumbs up for anything...but even this sounds
Pretty weak.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20393942

If anything physiotherapy/OT interventions are going to lead to better functional outcomes vs chiro and would be referred beforehand.
-Oh btw I have nothing against chiros, I know they benefit many patients (as do massage therapists and acupuncturists )

Kunga Dorji
04-09-13, 04:15 AM
Sorry...the neck manipulations? Or chiro for the back?
Neither is 1st line treatment of choice from a MD. Can it be used together ? Sure.

Not that Cochrane reviews ever gives a solid thumbs up for anything...but even this sounds
Pretty weak.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20393942

If anything physiotherapy/OT interventions are going to lead to better functional outcomes vs chiro and would be referred beforehand.
-Oh btw I have nothing against chiros, I know they benefit many patients (as do massage therapists and acupuncturists )

Nowadays neck manipulations are rarely done- techniques have gone well past that. Low impact, precision, focal deliveries of force to a particular point are much more usual.

immabum
04-09-13, 05:04 AM
Nowadays neck manipulations are rarely done- techniques have gone well past that. Low impact, precision, focal deliveries of force to a particular point are much more usual.

Sure. Litigation can be a powerful motivator.
Although LBP is a complex entity, I just wanted to point out that chiro is not the treatment of choice in Canada (of course it can aid in the management plan)
Chiro services are minimally covered province to province and have suffered funding cuts in the past.

Could be different in Australia *shrugs*

sarahsweets
04-09-13, 06:08 AM
Another hot as* boosting option is zumba...I swear...

I'm all about my *** lookin' hot in some jeans!! I have and I hate yoga. With the passion of 10 fiery hells. BUT, I know I need to do something. I think I am going to stick with swimming 3-4 days a week and then adding yoga. The main issue right now is anything that is upright so as long as I can build some core while I am swimming I think I should be able to handle it in a few weeks. Thanks Sarah. :) What was your surgery?

Kunga Dorji
04-09-13, 07:07 AM
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/chirostroke.html

Low odds but never in the clear -youngest pt was 21.


Remember that the Committee Against Quackery was set up in the 60s by a group of doctors. It was later to be found to be behaving in an anticompetitive manner and the American AMA lost a major legal case in which they were found to have behaved in an anticompetitive manner.
The Book The Medical War Against Chiropractors documents all this in great detail.

I quote:P115:

After eleven years of legal wrangling after two trials in the District Court and one in the Appellate Court, the Wilk et al v.AMA et al. antitrust lawsuit on September 25, 1987, Judge Susan Gerzendanner issued a 101 page opinion that affirmed that the AMA had violated Section 1 of the Sherman Act.
Yet the residue of the illicit manipulations of the "Committee against Quackery" persists even today in outdated attitudes which have been found to be not compatible with current science.

Quackwatch is very much like an organisation we have in Australia called "Friends of Science in Medicine"- they start from a fixed point of view and assemble bits and pieces of old information to provide a case for a position they have already settled upon.

immabum
04-09-13, 05:06 PM
"Actually in Canada it is now regarded as the treatment of choice."

-Well like most things in medicine...you have to be able to back up your statement. Otherwise its just your opinion/anecdotal evidence/baseless.

Oh I agree QW just like Wikipedia is not perfect-but its a pretty damn good site(albeit a bit dated now). Its a non profit organization which offers free medical information to the public. Yes it is biased against 'snake oil' cures and a lot of 'homeopathic' stuff but it links evidence based articles for the general consumer to read.
I wouldn't knock a website that does way more good than harm.

There are people out there who flock to the newest 'antioxidant supershake',chinese lead laden herbal remedy or Mexican chelation therapy because of anecdotal evidence. Heck some folks think that drinking daily doses of hydrogen peroxide will actually cure their cancers and make them young/healthy(oxygenation therapy -if you don't know about it...read up on it -pretty interesting actually:) ).

Now before you dismiss it, please tell me what counterwebsite can you show me that doesn't have its own agenda(selling its product/book/pop up ads everywhere) that nicely summarizes actual research articles in a similar manner? (By the way quackwatch also links to Natural Medicines Comprehensive database if you wish to pay for good information.)

Alternative medicine is huge in America. They make big bucks (wiki MonaVie or Extenze,) with very little to substantiate their claims. They can forward their agenda through big bucks/financial backing and people just lap it up.

The bad sentiment towards chiropractors originates from the actual roots/theology behind their practice. The 'innate intelligence', 'vitalistic', metaphysical 'science that it originally was based on didn't help their field in the eyes of MDs. Extrapolating subluxation theory to treating every single condition in the body ranging from cancers-->low back pain confused the matter. These days chiros have a better reputation and on occasional will be referred to by a family doc because they've backed off their 'we cure everything' stance and now tend to focus on the techniques that have some evidence behind them.

Physiotherapists also were granted the ability to perform spinal manipulations a while back in Canada(if they wished to). More tools and a wider scope of practice is why they are seen and referred to before chiro/massage/alternative medicine.

Fortune
04-09-13, 06:17 PM
I did a lot of research on the whole neck/stroke thing in relation to chiropractice (is that a word?) last year, and it goes well beyond Quackwatch trying to build a case I was able to independently confirm much of what is written on that Quackwatch page.

immabum is also accurate in that a lot of "alternative" medicine in the US is based on sweeping claims and minimal evidence.

I also do not think it is accurate to point to a case that happened 26 years ago as evidence as to how Quackwatch operates and what its intentions are now. This seems to be a bit of poisoning the well, or maybe guilt by association.

Abi
04-09-13, 06:19 PM
chiropractic.

Fortune
04-09-13, 06:22 PM
"in relation to chiropractic" doesn't work.

Abi
04-09-13, 06:32 PM
does too. chiropractic is a noun as well.

Fortune
04-09-13, 06:41 PM
It sounds wrong. I like "chiropractice"

Abi
04-09-13, 06:45 PM
:giggle:

Joker_Girl
04-11-13, 05:47 PM
Oh my hon I had no idea you were in such pain! I am sorry! :(

I am glad the swimming helped!

I have had good luck at the chiropractor when I pulled my back out before, BUT I have no underlying problems with my back. My knee is what hurts on me. Sometimes my back will be sore, if I sleep wrong, or move something heavy, or something like that. But the underlying structures of my spine and vertebrae are not damaged.

Could having it popped cause more damage? I don't know, but I suppose.

Do you need to have surgery? If so, I hope you will get it soon. I am going to get knee replacements, if these synivisc shots don't help. I've had scopes and cortisone injections and all kind of mess. He said they will replace them if it doesn't help, and I am only 41.

I hate when someone hurts and they are all like, "Oh you are too young."

Too young for what? To hurt? Why should someone spend the next twenty years in pain? I'm tired of Aleves and Vicodin and BS.

"If we fix it, we'll just have to do it again in 25 years."

"So?"

I'm sorry you hurt, I hope you are better soon, and I'm glad the swimming helped.

Kunga Dorji
04-25-13, 06:53 AM
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/chirostroke.html

Low odds but never in the clear -youngest pt was 21.

Very low odds, much lower than the odds of adverse events from medical events:

[quote]
(from http://chiropractors.asn.au/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Community&Template=/CM/HTMLDisplay.cfm&ContentID=12609
see the neck adjustment fact sheet on that page:

In the 2001 version of Current Concepts in Vertebrobasilar Complications following Spinal
Manipulation, Dr. Allan G. Terrett assumed a risk of stroke of one in 2,000,000 patient treatments
based on a comprehensive review of the existing literature concerning the incidence of stroke
following neck adjustment7.
Research recently published in the Canadian Medical Association
Journal reports the risk at one in 5,000,000 patient treatments8.
In 1996, the journal Spine,
published “Manipulation and Mobilization of the Cervical Spine: a systematic review of the literature ”9 in which the risk of stroke was stated to be between one and two per 1,000,000 treatments. These estimates are far below the risks commonly associated with many other medical and pharmaceutical interventions10.

refs:
7
Terrett AG. Current Concepts in Vertebrobasilar Complications following Spinal Manipulation. Des Moines, Iowa: National
Chiropractic Mutual Insurance Company, 2001.
8
Haldeman S, Carey P, Townsend P, Papadopoulos C. Arterial dissections following cervical manipulation: the chiropractic experience. Canadian Medical Association Journal 2001; 165(7): 905-906.
9
Hurwitz EL, Aker PD, Adams MH, Meeker WC. Shekelle PG. Manipulation and Mobilization of the Cervical Spine: a systematic
review of the literature. Spine 1996; 21(15): 1746-1759.
10
Rothwell DM, Bondy SJ, Williams JI. Chiropractic manipulation and stroke: a population-based, case-controlled study. Stroke
2001; 32(5): 1054-1060.

[quote]

Sadly the issue here is intellectual quackery- not therapeutic quackery.
(but that is a whole other argument).

Blanched Dubois
04-27-13, 07:08 AM
Hi folks dealing with chronic pain. A few of you have given me some wonderful suggestions and I wanted to share something that I started doing yesterday that really helped.

Swimming!

None of the professionals had suggested it but kept telling me that I needed to go about my daily life and to stop when I had pain. The problem was that I have pain 24/7 now. It's still not diagnosed and frankly nobody seems to care about that detail except for me.

My issue is severe muscle tension near my thoracic spine, possibly a bulging disc. The pain radiates across my sacrum, tailbone, hips and nerve pain down my legs, and has started affecting my neck and shoulders this week. There really is no position that relieves it, including laying down. I am taking pain meds, muscle relaxers, NSAIDs along with my mental health arsenal. None of these are helping. So I thought of the one way I could build strength without putting weight on my spine and it worked. In fact, its now the only time I don't have pain. Not even a little bit! :)

Just wanted to share for those who are stuck in that same 'in a lot of pain and its not going away' cycle.


Yeah being in water is the only thing relieving some of my pain from severe spinal stenosis undiagnosed for years and worsened by hatha yoga

i got off the pain meds...wanted to get back on but the ADD was the worst of my life. Just got back on med for that...mainly so clueless about these pain dr's....the neuro's want to operate but i'm too scared cus i'm not always in pain until end of day, or when ptsd hits hard...stress is da killer....

i'm finding out that chronic pain management is something really twisted...maybe i need to find a private dr and pay first like i had to do with my pdoc...and i'll bill my insurance cus i guess you gotta pay thru the teeth to find good care?? i'm sorry i'm in pain...lack of sleep

Blanched Dubois
04-27-13, 07:18 AM
"in relation to chiropractic" doesn't work.

i think i'm lucky im not paralysed from the neck down. Chiro's are great if you get one that does the xrays or looks at your catscans/mri's cus if you go and start treatment without a good exam like I did?? You end up being told you're going to be in pain the rest of your life or need neurosurgery...

i went to chiro's for years as I thought I had tension in my neck and it would get stuck....i was freaked by that but never thought to go to a Dr for a real diagnosis as i didn't feel pain and it was a mild annoyance and not anything i couldn't deal with by taking aspirin - and an occaisional joint at night before bed.

since i'm no longer smoking weed cus i left wa state where it was affordable and legal, and got off pain meds after an altwaters cleanse that did get rid of my inflammation alot....the neck back is so bad....i spent the last 2 yrs mostly in bed....suffering with add ptsd and unable to speak

i cannot believe how much this is like a full time job i never wanted or accepted lol

maybe i need to get a referral to a great pain specialist or try accupuncture?

cannot do chiropractic ever again - but i did try Cranial Sacral with a master and it was so relaxing but so expensive and billing insurance co's is more than i can stand...

about the years of chiro? i only had ONE guy adjust my back that felt SO good...it was like nothing i've ever felt....well one thing but..,,

jus sayin'

Asylum
04-27-13, 07:03 PM
I'm glad you've found some relief - I really hope someone give you a diagnosis!

immabum
04-28-13, 03:04 AM
Sadly the issue here is intellectual quackery- not therapeutic quackery. (but that is a whole other argument).The odds actually range from 1 in 100,000 to 1 in 5 million -->funny enough both studies were conducted by chiro groups. The latter study far more cited for obvious reasons.
I won't belabor this point- frankly the best quote I've read so far sums it up the best:

“The potential for catastrophic events and the clear absence of unique benefit lead to the inevitable conclusion that manipulation of the cervical spine should be abandoned as part of conservative care for neck pain.”

We get older. Our stroke risk goes up regardless. Vertebral disc dessication, disc herniation, bony spondylosis, osteophytes, uncovertebral joints with decreased ROM etc etc. End result is decreased ROM with more bony instability. Toss in thickened atherosclerotic plaques, decreased arterial compliance ---and you still believe there is no increased risk associated with these pop pop 'controlled' manipulations? Younger patients with neck pain often have been in some sort of recent traumatic incident-eg MVA. Perhaps their neck trauma could have resulted in an intimal injury with small clot propagation. Seeing a chiro soon after the initial insult could allow this clot to dislodge could it not? (see one of the bottom links)

I find it somewhat comical that your Chiro Assoc. paper spends half page detailing ADLs associated with increased stroke risk due to activities such as exercise, tai chi and yawning - to rationalize how safe neck manipulations are.

What it boils down to is the non-superiority of chiro neck manipulations over more conservative approaches such as exercise/massage/physio/ROM etc. The anecdotal 'OMG chiro made me feel better for a week!' is balanced by the 'OMG my chiro gave me a debilitating stroke' stories. The difference is the potential for severe harm -with little efficacy to back up their treatments.
To give handouts to elderly patients telling them that their risk of stroke is probably higher with yawning or yoga/exercise vs neck manipulations is ....'manipulative' to put it nicely.

Since you like to reference the CMAJ here are some more articles for you:
http://www.cmaj.ca/content/166/6/794.1.full
http://www.cmaj.ca/content/163/1/38.full.pdf
A letter in response to your CMAJ article
http://www.cmaj.ca/content/166/10/1253.1.full

Anyways no need to continue this chiro exercise. People have the right to spend money on whatever they want. If it 'works' for them...great. If they want to go to Mexico for chelation therapy why not.

I find this situation analogous to dentists who deny any added health risk due to mercury in amalgam fillings or BPA/estrogenic exposure with composite fillings/dental sealants. In the end...they need to protect their own interests. ( / ) $

tudorose
05-10-13, 04:47 AM
Traditional medicine is dangerous. And if you've actually spent a significant part of your life in chronic pain the alternative treatments appear a hell of a lot more safe than taking prescribed opiates and risking ending up in the substance abuse section of the forum.

Kunga Dorji
05-12-13, 11:20 AM
Traditional medicine is dangerous. And if you've actually spent a significant part of your life in chronic pain the alternative treatments appear a hell of a lot more safe than taking prescribed opiates and risking ending up in the substance abuse section of the forum.

The hard truth is that the risks associated with traditional medicine are radically higher than those associated with complementary medicine- especially in the US- where there is a real issue of over-intervention associated with medicolegal considerations

And, Tudorose, you are right- the interventions associated with pain clinics are particularly prone to be troublesome- such as a few i have seen in my time:
A woman prescribed such high doses of opiates that she had an ileostomy due to opiate induced megacolon, then multiple episodes of abdominal adhesions, then finally became so stressed that she developed osteoporosis due to endogenous cortisol secretion- and had so many spontaneous fractures that she became confined to a nursing home in her mid 40s was the worst.
However- I have seen many failed epidural injections, spinal cord stimulators.

The chiropractor I am seeing uses almost entirely interventions involving precisely delivered low force shocks to the tendons of the muscles in spasm on the back, combined with specific exercises to mobilise and strengthen, and other specific exercises design to refire neural circuits that have become altered by the effects of chronic pain-- very impressive and progressive results. The low force shocks affect the Golgi pressure receptors in the tendons and cause the tendons to re-set that muscle's preferred tension and degree of contraction- a neat trick.

In fact- she is working from a functional neurology approach, and keeps suggesting to me that I should shift from Medicine to chiropractic, as I am likely to find it more intellectually satisfying. She has a point, but the thought of all that study gives me the horrors at my age!

Blanched Dubois
05-12-13, 06:40 PM
i'm struggling with the whole question of what to do about the real pain in neck and upper back muscles that strikes hard at times with ADD meds especially. I might be too far gone and close to dead because I have NO idea of the state of my bones, anything. I have Lyme Disease and need an LLMD - here - and have done nothing but know it. First things first...so i'm dealing with a lot..have limited funds, no credit cards and can't outlay anymore cash this or next month for 'non traditional care' - what to do?

I just posted on this i think...I don't know...everyday is at times better or worse but ultimately much better now that I'm back on ADD meds with great pdoc and counseling, and this forum. Before this I was in bed, miserable, etc etc.

Any suggestions? This is one i've been really stuck on. For 2 yrs now. I feel it's time I addressed it. Thanks - reading thru this thread knowing we're all different...i'm needing to try something i can do to relieve the pain besides a hot tub that's not private and i'm open to suggestions of all kinds. I noticed this topic is the one I dread the most for some reason.

sarahsweets
05-13-13, 11:03 AM
I just read this so have no http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1910028,00.html with it but if you can get tumeric in capsule form its supposed to help with chromic pain.
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/19/the-doctors-remedy-turmeric-for-joint-pain/
http://www.doctoroz.com/blog/mao-shing-ni-lac-dom-phd/4-herbs-natural-pain-relief

tudorose
05-14-13, 01:04 AM
I went to see an osteopath today and he's given me a DVD on neurocranial restucturing. Has anyone heard of this?

I know they say it can help ADHD but I'm not expecting that. All I'm looking at it for is to correct some structural defects that could be contributing to my overall pain levels (like TMJ).

Interested in hearing your opinions.

SB_UK
05-14-13, 08:10 AM
[a] Pain/Lethargy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=d_OrCKcjamo

Mod Edit: Please google nutritionfacts fibromyalgia raw vegetarian diets

Turns out that people with chronic widespread pain syndromes tend to eat pretty crappy diets
Fibromyalgia engulfs patients in a downward, reinforcing cycle of unrestorative sleep, chronic pain, fatigue, inactivity, and depression, so they tested whether a mostly raw and actually vegan diet would significantly improve fibromyalgia symptoms. And boy did it. This is the standard survey designed specifically to measure the impact of fibromyalgia on a person's life. At the beginning of the study they were doing pretty bad. By two months though they were doing significantly better. And by the end of the study, at seven months the whole curve had entirely shifted. Significant improvement in each one of these measures. In summary, a diet intervention using a mostly raw, pure vegetarian diet produced dramatic improvements in FMS symptoms. When this study was reviewed in Current Rheumatology Reports, the editor noted that it had the most impressive results of any of recent fibromyalgia treatment study, for example 3 times the improvement that the Mayo Clinic was reporting for their fibromyalgia program. Back pain

[B]Mod Edit: Please google nutritionfacts cholesterol and lower back pain

SB_UK
05-14-13, 09:21 AM
When it comes down to the question of what we can eat ... ... stick with freshly prepared low GI organic vegetables - minimally, if at all - cooked.



No cholesterol (artery blocking),
No longer chain saturated fat (pro-inflammatory),
No endotoxins (all animal products but also processed vegetables acquire endotoxin) (highly pro-inflammatory),
No omega-6 fatty acids (pro-inflammatory and prone to oxidize),
No carbs that affect blood glucose levels (pro-inflammatory through Insulin/IGF-1),
Low quality protein (doesn't drive Insulin/IGF-1 levels up through BCAAs),
No lectins (antigenic),
No arachidonic acid (only in animal products),
High in anti-oxidants

Anything that can accompany low GI veggies ?
Maybe a small amount of sprouted/soaked nuts/seeds ? (don't know yet)
A small amount of cold pressed MUFA-rich oil (EVOO) ?
And -finally- currently experimenting with MCT oil ... ... though EVOO should be able to substitute for it.

So ... ... ... back around to the idea of low GI multi-coloured, minimally prepared vegetables + supplementation from a MUFA-rich cold-pressed oil.

Take-home message dietary induced - inflammation, inflammation, inflammation !

Natural (lectin, omega-6 oils -> in grains, legumes, nuts and seeds) is not always good.

SB_UK
05-14-13, 09:27 AM
described ... eg ...

You know the pain also, don't you ?

Definitely - I experience pain typing too (finger pain).
Had to stop cutting vegetables and playing the guitar - too much pain involved.

And the problem I'm describing really does mimic RA,CFS; was diagnosed as a seronegative spondylarthrpathy - and as for the tiredness ... ... it feels like life in a stress induced lethargy.

I don't really know anything about RRV.

I'm now pretty sure - after instant pain on vinegar (that was pain!) and decaffeinated coffee - that acid/alkaline balance is also important.

All pushing me violently towards vegetables + vegetable protein + olive oil / ghee

- but only the base minimum required to survive.
http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1253065&postcount=71

Noting that ghee is taken away by virtue of obserrvations (subsequent) of connection between sat. fat (endotoxin/cholesterol) and inflammation.

- Leaving -

low GI veg + EVOO - where low GI veg appears to be quite high in protein - as are nuts/seeds - which I'm currently testing for suitability post-soaking ... ... would be nice if they are.

SB_UK
05-14-13, 11:16 AM
paleodietlifestyle.com/are-nuts-and-seeds-healthy/Nuts and seeds apart from macadamia - which is too expensive to buy - are out, I guess.

5g of omega-6 intake in just 25g (<- that's nothing) of your average nut/seed !!!

And wonder seed omega-3 doesn't appear to be so useful in generating the omega-3 biochemicals we require!!

Time to put all of your eggs in just 1 basket - the 'green' vegetable.

In terms of conventional nutrients (vitamins, minerals, proteins, carbs, and fats), we cannot find another vegetable group that is as high in vitamin A carotenoids, vitamin C, folic acid, and fiber as the cruciferous vegetables. As a group, the cruciferous vegetables are simply superstars in these conventional nutrient areas. whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=btnews&dbid=126

Noting:
ADHD: An inflammatory condition (http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/in-the-zone/201107/adhd-inflammatory-condition)
The link between ADHD and obesity.Such a diet is one that is very rich in vegetables with limited fruits, adequate in low-fat protein, low in grains and starches, and very low in omega-6 fatty acids found in common vegetable oils and virtually every processed food & [NUTS AND SEEDS].

SB_UK
05-14-13, 11:35 AM
Such a diet is one that is very rich in vegetables with limited fruits, adequate in low-fat protein, low in grains and starches, and very low in omega-6 fatty acids found in common vegetable oils and virtually every processed food.

Such a diet is one that is very rich in vegetables [ADDED - YES]
with limited fruits [ADDED - YES - BERRIES/DRIED LOW GI]
adequate in low-fat protein [ADDED - FROM VEGAN SOURCE - ? HEMP,RICE,PEA PROTEIN OK IF PURIFIED ?? - next on list to check]
low/absent in grains and starches [ADDED - YES - AND LEGUMES - ELIMINATED FROM DIET]
and very low in omega-6 fatty acids found in common vegetable oils and virtually every processed food [ADDED - YES - AND NUTS/SEEDS ELIMINATED ALSO]

Suggestion - low GI veg (all), MUFA CP oil, MCT oil, Vegan protein (isolate) ... ... or just green vegetables, if minimalist is desired.

<- Chronic Pain and how to recuperate?

SB_UK
05-14-13, 12:14 PM
yay!

silverhydra.com/2011/04/a-primer-on-protein-powders"no lectin/gliadin content and non-allergenic"

... ... and for good measure ... ... (thepaleodiet.com/paleo-basics-2/qa-pea-protein-milk-chocolate-and-artificial-sweeteners/)

Pea protein powder is not the same as a whole pea/legume. Pea protein, as the name implies is a concentrated protein product (usually 75-85%), with very little carbohydrate or fat remaining. As such, they contain very little if any “phytates, saponins or lectins”. Also, some pea proteins are produced by soaking the raw peas in water for a long time first (which would further remove “antinutrients”) and then extracting the protein in a low heat process, thereby preserving the quality of the amino acids.Note (http://jn.nutrition.org/content/139/1/1.long):
Suggestion - low GI veg (all), MUFA CP oil, MCT oil, Vegan protein (isolate) ... ... or just green vegetables, if minimalist is desired. Don't substitute MCT oil with EVCO - as EVCO contains lauric acid - which is inflammatory eg "Consistent with these data, lauric acid, but not DHA, activated costimulatory molecules (e.g. CD40, CD80, CD86) and cytokines in bone marrow-derived dendritic cells (BMDC) (35 (http://jn.nutrition.org/content/139/1/1.long#ref-35)). FFA were reported to trigger JNK signaling via TLR2/4 activation in murine macrophages (RAW264.7) and BMDC"

Also -

SB_UK
05-14-13, 12:46 PM
oops!

Also -

-- just to re-iterate and because of mention of DHA - ditch linseeds.
"The body’s mechanisms to elongate ALA (flax seeds) to EPA and DHA are very inefficient and ALA forms of omega-3 fats are not good sources of omega-3 for us."

SB_UK
05-14-13, 12:57 PM
so eg

... pain and its relationship to systemic inflammation (http://www.painjournalonline.com/article/S0304-3959%2810%2900669-X/abstract)


Inflammation was assessed using C-reactive protein (CRP).
Pain positively correlated with CRP.



Take-home message dietary induced - inflammation, inflammation, inflammation !

Amtram
05-14-13, 01:24 PM
If your pain is coming from a clearly physical cause (like pain in the spine or a joint because of pressure on a nerve, degenerative conditions that affect bone or cartilage or other support or cushioning, arthritis, or an injury) then developing muscles that support that part of the body can actually relieve some of that pressure, which is why mild exercise and/or physical therapy are first-line treatments for those. Depending on your own personal situation, exercise may be the only treatment you need - as long as you keep up with it.

I have some mild but troublesome scoliosis and the beginning of cartilaginous degeneration because of age in my back. 15 years of chiropractic did nothing. Yoga helped a lot, but the PT exercises I was finally given have kept it in check for 10 years. Any time there's a twinge, I go back to them, and it costs nothing and fixes things within a couple of days.

When I developed pain in my shoulder and x-rays revealed arthritis, I went right to PT. Unless I move in exactly the wrong way AND do it too quickly, I'm pain-free.

Building up the right muscles puts some separation between the bones, which relieves the pressure on the nerve. Physical problem, physical solution.

SB_UK
05-15-13, 08:01 AM
Still feeling around a little ... ... ...

... ... the higher your insulin levels, the more your body is stimulated to make increased levels of arachidonic acid.
[source 2 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16002802)] "Whey proteins have insulinotropic effects and reduce the postprandial glycemia in healthy subjects."

So we've omega-6 + insulin (from high GI carbs and/or fast mobilized, high quality protein - noting they (protein + carbs) operate synergistically (to drive insulin levels up) - from Eades and Eades, Protein power."

So - omega-6 (everywhere) + carbs (everywhere) + protein (everywhere) -> lead to -> inflammation.

However - protein in the absence of omega-6 and carbs - 'd reduce blood glucose levels (via insulin).

Where's this idea heading ?

Separate protein (vegan powder) from omega-6 [eliminate if possible - but separate from protein and carbs if not] and carbs [stick to low GI - but if we can't separate from omega-6] ... ... ... or ... ... ... the ketogenic diet minus omega-6 and foods registering a GI 'd be optimal.

The ketogenic diet - low GI fruit and veg, MCT oil, MUFA oil and vegan protein would lift insulin levels ... ... [muscle building] ... ... but not much (insulin levels) - and in the absence of higher GI carbs (eliminating grains and legumes) and omega-6 ... ... the insulin would serve to keep blood glucose levels down ('reduce postprandial glucose levels') - driving ketone bodies into the sytem, through necessity - to power the brain - and in the total absence of omega-6 fatty acids (a large number of foods eg nuts, seeds, the majority of oils) and direct arachidonic acid intake (eliminate ALL animal products including dairy/eggs) - we'd not be able to mount an inflammatory (-> pain,lethargy) reaction -

- because the essential raw materials of inflammation - omega-6, arachidonic acid and insulin - wouldn't be available in unison.

-*-

Same conclusion - Suggestion - low GI fruit/veg (all), MUFA Cold-Pressed oil, MCT oil, Vegan protein (isolate), herbs + spices ... read off list of alkalizing foods... or just green vegetables, if minimalist is desired. ROS = -minus = acid ... ... acids are oxidizing agents - mitochondrial by-products are strongly oxidizing/acidic
anti-oxidants absorb -minus = + = alkaline

Alkaline ash is a natural anti-oxidant ... ... presumably ??

Cooking (oxidizes) destroys anti-oxidants.

Generally believed that anti-oxidant levels protect the body - so food intake 'd be the list commonly quoted throughout the internet - fruit and veg.
Noting that legumes, grains, nuts and seeds aren't generally to be found on the alkalizing side.

Finally - to mention that endogenous anti-oxidant levels are under the control of glutathione - which is wiped out by stress.

Where - there is only 1 real $tress to man ... ... ...
source (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15936251) mild stress generally increases glutathione levels- however - chronic unmanageable stress - ie having to break one's own sense of morality in order to earn money - it's impossible to be moral and to earn money -

eg source (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11182537) Glutathione depletion, lipid peroxidation and mitochondrial dysfunction are induced by chronic stress in rat brain.In an immoral society - you're not human unless you're dying prematurely - to inflammation, pain and lethargy.

SB_UK
05-15-13, 08:21 AM
Chronic Pain and how to recuperate?

So the secret to a long and painless life is manageable stress.

Life without much food, regular fasting, austere foods - minimally prepared, living to the letter of the highest level of morality, frequent exercise, cold exposure ... ...
<- perfectly manageable stress

Anything to do with money, societal hierarchy, inequality, omega-6 fas, animal products (even dairy and egg ??query whey protein??) and carbs with a non negligible GI index ... ... are eliminated - as unmanageable stresses.

SB_UK
05-15-13, 10:36 AM
wikiP/cortisol

Cortisol consistently causes serum alkalosisCortisol stimulates gluconeogenesis (formation, in the liver, of glucose from certain amino acids, glycerol, lactate and/or propionate) and it activates anti-stress and anti-inflammatory pathways.

Manageable and not un-manageable stress.

Chronic stress wipes out cortisol sensitivity - deranges anti-inflammatory processes - opens the door - particularly when not in ketosis, and eating to acidic pH ash foods - to cortisol insensitivity - inflammation -> pain -> lethargy (CFS).

Correcting diet isn't enough - we also need to generate a society without unmanageable stresses by eliminating money/inequality of man.

SB_UK
05-15-13, 10:40 AM
So ... ... ... we can simply consider the body to be one aerobic reaction.
Such is the enormity of the problem of handling the process of oxidative phosphorylation ... ... that we're required to remain on the alkalizing side of pH 7.0 - natural alkaline anti-oxidant capacity to neutralize oxygen free radicals/acidic waste of the electron transport chain.

Cortisol plays a major part in this process - happiest in ketosis - happiest when we're running in the alkaline side of pH 7 ... ... however - cortisol sensitivity is lost to unmanageable stresses -
the single unmanageable stress which we encounter - is the stress of having to live to a system which mandates inequality in man.

That's not moral - and when one tries to align oneself with money, establishment 'ways' - one fails - because it's contrary (supporting human hierarchy and not equality) - to the prime directive of man (mind).

Amtram
05-15-13, 12:04 PM
Ergo, if you're suffering from chronic pain, it's because you're an immoral person. Got it.

SB_UK
05-15-13, 03:36 PM
Ergo, if you're suffering from chronic pain, it's because you're an immoral person. Got it.

moral

This kinda' idea - Researchers from Ohio University found that levels of a protein that rise in response to inflammation, called C-reactive proteins, increase when a person is asked to think about a negative and stressful event. - 'cept thinking rationally about money, immoral workplace endeavours and immoral societal infrastructures is so much more stressful than thinking about a negative/stressful event.

It's an unamangeable stress ->- leasds to ->- inflammation.

Thing is - is that you can't just stop yourself thinking about money - in this world.
And anybody with a mind 'll be sent into deep stress when thinking about this, the most immoral of human constructs.
So - can't not think about it - because money's required to survive - must think about it - which, to anybody with a mind - brings on feelings of stress - which're compounded when we see that to earn it requires - an additional level on top of immorality (ie addicting a population - cigarettes, alcohol, fast food etc) ... ...

So - taking the research study referenced above - we've a direct connection between human inflammation and psych. stress.

Our big problem is that stress is handling 2 systems - mental (immoral) stress and physical (lack of access to food) stress - is great at handling lack of access to food - but not plentiful access to food under psych. stress - our body/mind/brain goes haywire - demands food (thinking the body's in physical stress) - compounds the mental stress with physical stress - the mental stress mounts - driving physical stress to climb ever higher - it's a complete nightmare -

having mental and psych. stress operating convergently upon cortisol.

SB_UK
05-15-13, 04:02 PM
All over the internet ... ... ...
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/04/120402162546.htm
A research team led by Carnegie Mellon University's Sheldon Cohen has found that chronic psychological stress is associated with the body losing its ability to regulate the inflammatory response. Published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, the research shows for the first time that the effects of psychological stress on the body's ability to regulate inflammation can promote the development and progression of disease.That's all there is to it.

Anybody with a mind will be under chronic psych. stress in this current societal infrastructure.

Chronic psych. stress -> Chronic Inflammation > Chronic physical stress -> Eating hyperglycaemic foods (increased insulin levels), animal-based products (increased insulin, arachidonic acid, omega-6 levels) -> Worsening chronic physical stress -> Worsening chronic psych. stress -> Back to start.

Abi
05-15-13, 04:09 PM
Moderator Note

Hi everyone.

Just a reminder to note the title of the thread and the contents of the Orighinal Post... ways of DEALING with chronic pain.

The purpose of this thread is to discuss methods of dealing with chronic pain, NOT the real or imagined causes of said pain.

Please try to stay on topic. Members are welcome to make their own threads if they wish to discuss the aetiology of pain in greater detail. Thanks :)

SB_UK
05-15-13, 04:11 PM
chronic Pain and how to recuperate?Realization that there're 2 components to pain - the classical model (physical stress) and the new model (psychological stress) -
that both are capable of driving inflammation/pain/lethargy etc -

- that psych. stress isn't handled by the body's reaction to physical stress - and worsens, quite considerably - any psych. stress with additional phys. stress ... ... the road to complete breakdown in all physiological systems.

Solution - to understand this idea - to change societal infrastructure to a fair system - one in which money isn't required to survive - and then to eat as we know we should - vegan ketogenic.

Scientific proof offered in this presentation:
http://nutritionfacts.org/video/plant-based-atkins-diet/

A low-carb diet based on animal sources was associated with higher all-cause mortality in both men and women, whereas a vegetable-based low carb diet was associated with lower all cause and cardiovascular diease mortality rates.

Blanched Dubois
05-16-13, 04:22 PM
Realization that there're 2 components to pain - the classical model (physical stress) and the new model (psychological stress) -
that both are capable of driving inflammation/pain/lethargy etc -

- that psych. stress isn't handled by the body's reaction to physical stress - and worsens, quite considerably - any psych. stress with additional phys. stress ... ... the road to complete breakdown in all physiological systems.

Solution - to understand this idea - to change societal infrastructure to a fair system - one in which money isn't required to survive - and then to eat as we know we should - vegan ketogenic.

Scientific proof offered in this presentation:
http://nutritionfacts.org/video/plant-based-atkins-diet/

nah i respectfully disagree with the diet ....what I do agree on is that there must be a barter system designed to augment the failing financial system currently- and i almost died from becoming a vegan....so - there is some care needed not to have a one fit one all idea that would fit all different inhabitants of da planet
'my 2 cents...or is it 3?

Blanched Dubois
05-16-13, 05:49 PM
ok i like Qigong for keeping shapely no impact body mind healing ancient technique

and pilates with a great instructor...i love a dancer's body....cus i love dancer's bodies

:)

tudorose
05-16-13, 06:45 PM
I know for me diet has a big impact. I try to eat organic as much as possible and defo no dairy. The biggest pain triggers for me are stress as the number 1 and then overdoing it and diet. Each person has their own food triggers and the only way to find out is through an elimination diet. I never even contemplated that dairy could be a trigger until I did the elimination diet.

At the moment with the pain I'm in I've been trying to use mind control. Last night was the first time it worked enough for me to not have to take the codeine/ibuprophen tablets. I am acutely aware of how dangerous these can be long term.

Sometimes epson salt baths sometomes help. I also use skins compression wear and more recently tommie copper who make compression gloves that can even be used in the office.

Fortune
05-16-13, 06:46 PM
Everyone has a theory about how to treat chronic pain. Most of those theories are wrong.

Of course, when they give you their alternative-but-not-working treatment advice and you either don't take the advice or you do but it predictably doesn't work, then it's somehow your fault for being in pain and not fixing it to their specifications.

oneup
05-16-13, 07:14 PM
Most important thing is finding a accurate diagnosis. -->rehab -->treatment --> recovery...or get stalled in a constant state of rehabbing the injury/ condition. But that's still better than nothing.

Without an accurate dx only thing they can due is try to treat your symptoms, or make you feel bad so you go away (or tell you its all in your head :P). Unfortunately once you get diagnosed with "chronic pain", it is very hard to get an accurate diagnosis...it's sorta doctor code for "I don't know, I can't find anything wrong with you".

But if you have a chronic injury even, and accurate diagnosis, then you can find some kind of real treatment (physical therapy, surgery, drugs, whatever).

Abi
05-16-13, 07:26 PM
(physical therapy, surgery, drugs, whatever).... herbalist, acupuncturist, witchdoctor, chiropractor.... :D

Blanched Dubois
05-16-13, 08:36 PM
i fired my pain management dr here in fl - and decided to white knuckle it on my own - they wanted me to sign an agreement that stated i wouldn't smoke any whacky weed so I turned around and left - mainly cus they also never got me to a neuro for an update i haven't had on my 'severe' stenosis c2-c7 since 2010
just want me to take shots I've never taken and never will
they gave me a pee test for not wanting to take pain pills daily or need a script or 'check up' monthly so i walked out even when the gal threatened me if i didn't sign to kick me out
i went home and drafted a stern letter about going to my home in WA where it's legal and in my medical file if they ever cared to actually read the whole thing lol where it shows my license to smoke or eat or grow that whacky weed that grows in nature
and i closed by saying it's better than being an addict with u as my pusher...but that i don't do it here cus it is illegal
....suffering blows....what else is there to do anyway? lol
k i'm out dinner - cheers y'all, glad we're all suffering like besterds together

Kunga Dorji
05-17-13, 12:49 PM
Realization that there're 2 components to pain - the classical model (physical stress) and the new model (psychological stress) -
that both are capable of driving inflammation/pain/lethargy etc -

- that psych. stress isn't handled by the body's reaction to physical stress - and worsens, quite considerably - any psych. stress with additional phys. stress ... ... the road to complete breakdown in all physiological systems.

Solution - to understand this idea - to change societal infrastructure to a fair system - one in which money isn't required to survive - and then to eat as we know we should - vegan ketogenic.

Scientific proof offered in this presentation:
http://nutritionfacts.org/video/plant-based-atkins-diet/

There is much more to it than this model suggests:
There are a series of feedback loops to overcome:

1) Attending to the local mechanisms that cause and sustain pain:
IE A back problem can lead to lost of minor facet joint subluxations.
These, in turn cause muscle spasm and trigger points. Trigger points are knots of tense muscle. They are so tight that they build up lactic acid that increases local pain and spasm. Also muscles with trigger points are often shorter and weaker than they should be.
Pain causes a stress response and the increased sympathetic response then feeds into the locus coeruleus in the brainstem, causing outputs of increased metabolic rate, increased perception of pain and incresed vigilance.
Then the lack of sleep causes a decline in the capacity of the thalamus to gate out biologically relevant stimuli.

The whole package leaves one overtired, irritable and in increasing pain, then becoming unemployable- then suffering a barrage of physical symptoms.

Chronic stress then causes adrenal depletion and that triggers its own loop of dysfunction.

All of this, including the central pain sensitisation, is remediable- but it is tricky to unravel all the problems at once.

Kunga Dorji
05-17-13, 12:52 PM
i fired my pain management dr here in fl - and decided to white knuckle it on my own - they wanted me to sign an agreement that stated i wouldn't smoke any whacky weed so I turned around and left - mainly cus they also never got me to a neuro for an update i haven't had on my 'severe' stenosis c2-c7 since 2010
just want me to take shots I've never taken and never will
they gave me a pee test for not wanting to take pain pills daily or need a script or 'check up' monthly so i walked out even when the gal threatened me if i didn't sign to kick me out
i went home and drafted a stern letter about going to my home in WA where it's legal and in my medical file if they ever cared to actually read the whole thing lol where it shows my license to smoke or eat or grow that whacky weed that grows in nature
and i closed by saying it's better than being an addict with u as my pusher...but that i don't do it here cus it is illegal
....suffering blows....what else is there to do anyway? lol
k i'm out dinner - cheers y'all, glad we're all suffering like besterds together

The stern letter is a good idea.
It WILL be read, if you manage to include the word "negligence" in the first centre.

Doctors have their own attention deficits- but the N word cures most of them.

tudorose
05-18-13, 05:46 AM
Here are a couple of links that DH found for me.

http://www.hospicenet.org/html/without_meds-pr.html

In relation to the first one that said that moderate amounts of alcohol can be used, I think that depends on the type of pain. If you have something like fibrolyalgia or CFS then I think that's a bad idea.

Fortune
05-18-13, 05:48 AM
Yeah, alcohol does nothing for my FMS.

SB_UK
05-21-13, 09:05 AM
There is much more to it than this model suggests:
There are a series of feedback loops to overcome:

1) Attending to the local mechanisms that cause and sustain pain:
IE A back problem can lead to lost of minor facet joint subluxations.
These, in turn cause muscle spasm and trigger points. Trigger points are knots of tense muscle. They are so tight that they build up lactic acid that increases local pain and spasm. Also muscles with trigger points are often shorter and weaker than they should be.
Pain causes a stress response and the increased sympathetic response then feeds into the locus coeruleus in the brainstem, causing outputs of increased metabolic rate, increased perception of pain and incresed vigilance.
Then the lack of sleep causes a decline in the capacity of the thalamus to gate out biologically relevant stimuli.

The whole package leaves one overtired, irritable and in increasing pain, then becoming unemployable- then suffering a barrage of physical symptoms.

Chronic stress then causes adrenal depletion and that triggers its own loop of dysfunction.

All of this, including the central pain sensitisation, is remediable- but it is tricky to unravel all the problems at once.

Small presentation here explaining away back pain as a consequence of eating an animal product based diet.

Mod edit: Please google nutritionfacts cholesterol and lower back pain

It's more than possible that the problems we're facing with out backs are amplified by inflammatory reaction/animal-based saturated fat/animal-based cholesterol etc
- that is that blood vessel occlusion in particularly hard working zones (lower back, heart, brain) - are the areas which report problems.

So - we look at the eg back - see that there're anatomical issues there - but it's not the issue - it's the pro-inflammatory milieu which is bringing out the issues (pain).

So - this is exactly the argument I'm using versus genetic inheritance of diseases with an apparent heritable component - the argument being that lifestyle exacerbates the individual to such an extent that inherited differences expose themselves.
Exactly as in the case of the back - chasing the specific minor genetic differences in the case of disorders with an apparently heritable component - represents running down a blind alley - because it's the pro-inflammatory diet / unmanageably stressful lifestyle [respectively] - both of which operate via cortisol - which're to blame ... ... chasing back manipulation and specific genomic defects [respectively] - aren't ever going to correct the fundamental basis to eg back pain, complex disorders ... ... and pain/stress generally.

Human beings aren't built badly - we 'break' because of the lives we lead - I'm pretty sure that the one golden bullet cure to solving human sickness is simply re-instating cortisol sensitivity - by eliminating unmanageable stress at the level of societal infrastructure (removing money) and diet - switching to a (raw) vegan (ketogenic) diet ... ... I think that animal-based diets are out - because of this type of research:
Mod Edit: Please google nutritionfacts exogenous endotoxin theory
The endotoxemia (bacterial toxins in the bloodstream) that follows a meal of animal products and results in inflammation and stiffened arteries may come from the food itself rather than from one’s own gut bacteria.

So - we've a terribly pro-inflammatory diet and a terribly pro-inflammatory (stressful) lifestyle.
What happens is (!!!) inflammation.
Inflammation appears to be the commonality underlying the majority of diseases sweeping Western lifestyles.

(http://nutritionfacts.org/video/the-exogenous-endotoxin-theory/)

SB_UK
05-21-13, 09:08 AM
There are a series of feedback loops to overcome:
Chronic stress then causes adrenal depletion and that triggers its own loop of dysfunction.


:-) By taking the first and last line of your post - we generate my last post.

So - correct negative feedback based on heightened cortisol levels - and return from cortisol resistance to cortisol sensitivity - restore body's anti-inflammatory power (cortisol is an anti-inflammatory) - restore body's capacity to dampen out pointless inflammation - eliminate pain.
With inflammation and pain being such close bedfellows.

One hormone - cortisol - and our insensitivity to its operation - through heightened exposure - I'm 99.99% sure - is the aetiological basis to the diseases of Western living.
It has to be as simple as that.

And the funny (not haha!) thing is - is that people can't see their own level of stress - because they've never had a period without it - and so believe that state of stress to be the normal state.

SB_UK
05-21-13, 09:34 AM
So - the idea's as simple as:

Stress leads to cortisol production.
(Chronic) cortisol production leads to Cortisol resistance.
Cortisol resistance (as a mineralocorticoid and glucocorticoid) prevents bodily pH maintenance.
A body which isn't being restored immediately to the correct pH level - is a body which isn't far from inflammation/pain.

The idea's all over the internet: eg " Use a pH Test To Help Defeat Pain and Inflammation" - which, of course, doesn't make the idea correct - but, it at least makes the point - that other people have had the same idea.

Sadly - their conclusion appears to be to alkalize with products 1,2,3 etc ... ... but I don't think that'd work.
It's a bit like trying to pH a solution with a broken pH meter - and hoping that if you slosh some alkali in - the pH that is attained 'll be correct.
Thing is - that it may be better than nothing - but there is no substitute for the pH meter being fully operational.

For that we require a societal infrastructure which doesn't result in chronic stress (so an elimination of money) - and then (and only then) the use of a certain profile of foods (ketogenic vegan) which have been scientifically proven to result in minimal changes to blood pH - we aren't required to 'trouble' cortisol (which results in metabolic alkalosis) - because we're in alkaline territory, if we stick to a green veggie diet.

So - no cortisol production through a fair societal infrastructure [because you're not stressed].
No cortisol production through a lovely green diet [because you're not driving acidic ash production].
No cortisol production - through electing for a particular type of exercise (anaerobic extreme drives us into acidic territory) [because you're not driving lactic acid production but are driving hyperventilation which results in metabolic alkalosis].

It would be interesting to see :-) how the body could develop cortisol resistance in the close to absence of cortisol production - observed through following this profile of lifestyle.

It's also important to note - how much info - the internet around (including classical scientific lit) seems to suggest that anti-oxidants are good.
Surely - an alkaline bodily pH 'd be the ultimate anti-oxidant.

Why ? 'cos those nasty acidic reactive oxygen free radicals 'd just be slurped out of existence in an invariant alkaline milieu.
No more of chasing food with high anti-oxidant levels - or at least chasing those foods secondarily to establishing the body's ultimate defence (an alkaline pH) against free radical formation ... ...
we're given insight into the dominant model of fighting ageing (the free radivcal theory) - and that through generation of a fair society (one in which there is no hierarchy) - we can slow down agein - at least to the extent that the individual does not fall to sickness prior to dropping down dead.

We're all gonna' die - that isn't a problem - the problem is living a life of pain prior to death - and that - thanks to the inflammatory reactions which kick off in childhood (allergy,asthma) - and which extend their reach with age - is exactly what we're doing.

Kunga Dorji
05-21-13, 09:45 AM
:-) By taking the first and last line of your post - we generate my last post.

So - correct negative feedback based on heightened cortisol levels - and return from cortisol resistance to cortisol sensitivity - restore body's anti-inflammatory power (cortisol is an anti-inflammatory) - restore body's capacity to dampen out pointless inflammation - eliminate pain.
With inflammation and pain being such close bedfellows.

One hormone - cortisol - and our insensitivity to its operation - through heightened exposure - I'm 99.99% sure - is the aetiological basis to the diseases of Western living.
It has to be as simple as that.

And the funny (not haha!) thing is - is that people can't see their own level of stress - because they've never had a period without it - and so believe that state of stress to be the normal state.

I could not agree more- and the last line really hits the nail on the head.
This is the science behind boiling a frog live without him hopping out of the pot before it is too late.

SB_UK
05-21-13, 10:09 AM
I'd argue that for children - the effects of food and then education (you will pass those exams!) gives rise to heightened stress / stress hormone resistance.
And that in adults, of course ... ... the king of stresses is securing sufficient money to exist followed by food.

That is - that the diseases of inflammation at all ages - can be explained away by the different profile of stresses which an individual is exposed to - and all because of the monetary based economy which we live in.

Pro-inflammatory foods to kids -<- cheapest and so heavily advertised/sold
No tolerance of learning disabilities -<- you will reach a certain standard by a certain age and go to a University to do a mathematical discipline - or you will never have money.
Stress of money (to adult) -<- you will do what you're told at work, or you will not be able to keep up mortgage repayments/pay your food bill.
Pro-inflammatory foods for adults -<- healthy foods take time to prepare ... ... who has time ?? around the 6am - 8pm workplace (including travelling).

-*-

So in answer to the question of this thread of the origins of chronic pain ?
The monetary based economy is the answer.

Stress hormone resistance -> pro-inflammation / pain

SB_UK
05-21-13, 10:18 AM
The (current!!) thought going around my head is ... ...

[1] Cortisol (or rather being chronically stressed) bad
[2] Cortisol results in metabolic alkalosis - and so MUST be a sign that metabolic acidosis is bad ie that we're stressed when 'acid' which is why stress hormone comes along and tries to knock us back into alkalinity.
[3] Identify what results in metabolic acidosis to eliminate cortisol production (wherever possible) - so that cortisol resistance cannot occur.
[4] Restore cortisol sensitivity - dampen whole body inflammation - eliminate systemic pain.

Cortisol serves to make us more alkaline - so alkaline we should try to be.
We thereby turn into an alkaline anti-oxidant reaction vessel (without the need of cortisol's services) which protects us from mitochondrial free radical production.

That's such an easy solution - and has all been described on-site by qinkin previously.

SB_UK
05-21-13, 10:27 AM
Don't really like any of the websites which tell us how to alkalize - we should just need functional cortisol (ie not be chronically stressed) and any old 'natural' diet/profile of exercise.

There's only so much of liquidized chlorella, wheat grass and celerified broccoli that a man can stand ... ... and it's not cheap stuff - not affordable by the average person.

SB_UK
05-21-13, 11:05 AM
Surely the fact that steroid analogues of cortisol are used across the board in the majority of diseases of Western living is an obvious sign that people are cortisol resistant - and so the body needs a hand.

Once again - that would seem the obvious conclusion.

SB_UK
05-21-13, 01:02 PM
no.1 medication - nexium "which reduces acid secretion through inhibition" in the stomach where - "MayoClinic.com recommends stress management techniques to control anxiety and stress to treat GERD."


Man is under stress - and is blind to it.

SB_UK
05-21-13, 02:22 PM
Video quoting research on (http://nutritionfacts.org/video/potassium-and-autoimmune-disease/)

vegan diet -> potassium enriched [green veg] -> elevated glucocorticoid [to handle potassium] -> anti-inflammatory -> beneficial versus pain/RA/psoriasis

Is that what you'd expect in cortisol resistance syndrome ? [living in dumbo world where only money matters and where only psychopaths get on]

I guess increased endogenous cortisol 'd be the same (ie beneficial) as administering a cortisol analogue drug ... ... but the real goal 'd be re-instating cortisol sensitivity.

eg (http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/28/5/1240.full) There seems to be a reluctance to use higher doses of insulin for a variety of reasons (7 (http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/28/5/1240.full#ref-7),8 (http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/28/5/1240.full#ref-8)). This reluctance is based in part on the knowledge that after 200 units insulin/day, the dose response to further insulin administration is attenuated The basic problem with pouring more and more hormone into a system in which resistance is occurring - is that we'll reach a point where more hormone just won't do anything.
So -- maybe elevating GC 'd work via K - and maybe it's an important strategy in man ... ... but only when man is in the un[chronically]$tre$$ed state.

-*-

But the video states that RA patients have low GC levels (rather than GC insensitivity) - which is a major discrepancy and also - using K to drive up cortisol runs against the basic idea (above) of trying to work towards keeping cortisol usage low.
However - maybe we're free to use cortisol as we wish - in eating any natural food/any exercise type we like - as long as psych. stress (the need to be immoral through earning money) is eliminated.

Some place hidden in that idea 'd be the line between manageable and unmanageable stress.

Manageable stress makes us better (employing cortisol) ... exercise, cold exposure, fasting, vegan diet, extending ourselves beyond ourselves.
Unmanageable stress (handling money/behaving immorally) just breaks us in two.

Abi
05-21-13, 02:49 PM
Thread closed for moderator review.

================================================

Thread Re-opened.

Would all contributors please take note of the following:

1. Please note that linking to commercial websites {inclueding websites that have online stores associatd with them} is not allowed.

2. Please take note of my previous note on this thread - we are discussing ways to combat chronic pain.

I'm making a call and stating that all discussion of both the sources/aetiology of pain as well as discussion of preventative measures is out of bounds for future posts in this thread.

Please limit discussion to how to treat existing pain, and nothing else.

Failure to comply will result in post deletion and the possible issuing of infractions.

Edit: If you wish to discuss anything other than *treatment of pain*, you are, of course, welcome to make a separate thread :)

tudorose
05-22-13, 12:28 AM
Over the last 4 months when things have been really bad I've been taking nurofen plus. Never more that 2 doses in one day and not every day but still a signicant amount compared to normal. Anyway the doc checked my blood pressure and it was 144 over 99. Ibuprophen causes elevated blood pressure. High blood pressure increases inflammation and puts you at risk of cardiovascular disease. Now I really need to find some alternative pain relief :(

APSJ
05-22-13, 07:38 PM
Moderator Note

This thread has run far afield of the topic as set forth in the original post:


Hi folks dealing with chronic pain. A few of you have given me some wonderful suggestions and I wanted to share something that I started doing yesterday that really helped.

Swimming!

None of the professionals had suggested it but kept telling me that I needed to go about my daily life and to stop when I had pain. The problem was that I have pain 24/7 now. It's still not diagnosed and frankly nobody seems to care about that detail except for me.

My issue is severe muscle tension near my thoracic spine, possibly a bulging disc. The pain radiates across my sacrum, tailbone, hips and nerve pain down my legs, and has started affecting my neck and shoulders this week. There really is no position that relieves it, including laying down. I am taking pain meds, muscle relaxers, NSAIDs along with my mental health arsenal. None of these are helping. So I thought of the one way I could build strength without putting weight on my spine and it worked. In fact, its now the only time I don't have pain. Not even a little bit! :)

Just wanted to share for those who are stuck in that same 'in a lot of pain and its not going away' cycle.

Some off topic posts have been removed.

Additionally, recognizing that members appear interested in continuing a discussion of the sources of physical pain, recent posts on that topic have been moved to a new thread here:

http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145535

Please confine discussion in this thread to the original topic, as per the prior moderator note in this thread:


2. Please take note of my previous note on this thread - we are discussing ways to combat chronic pain.

I'm making a call and stating that all discussion of both the sources/aetiology of pain as well as discussion of preventative measures is out of bounds for future posts in this thread.

Please limit discussion to how to treat existing pain, and nothing else.


I understand that discussions naturally drift from their original topic, and it can be easy to lose track of a thread topic, and may seem tedious to start a new thread when discussion drifts from it.

Please keep in mind however that this is a support and information forum for people with ADHD and related conditions. As such, threads here are not just conversations between individuals, they are also sources of information to both members and guests looking for answers to difficult questions.

Given the volume of information on this site (over 1.4 million posts), thread titles and topics are a critical means of locating relevant information. It is for this reason that we must insist members comply with our guidelines requiring posts to be responsive to thread topics. As this is the second moderator note in this thread asking that posts remain on topic, further off topic discussion here will result in permanent thread closure and/or the issuance of warnings or infractions that may affect posting privileges.

It is not our intention to stifle any discussion of topics appropriate to the forum, but we do ask that if a discussion in a thread leads you to want to discuss a new related topic, you do so in a new thread.

tudorose
05-23-13, 07:15 AM
Has anyone heard about using magnets for pain relief and if so does it work?