View Full Version : marsha linehans biosocial model of BPD, resembles a couple current ADHD constructs??


daveddd
05-27-13, 11:31 AM
http://books.google.com/books?id=LoQhNOrUnkYC&pg=PA106&dq=core+pathology+of+borderline+personality+disord er+the+emotion+dysregulation+hypothesis&hl=en&sa=X&ei=NXujUZKDC7O80AHVgoHwBw&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=core%20pathology%20of%20borderline%20personality %20disorder%20the%20emotion%20dysregulation%20hypo thesis&f=false

seems similar

atSWIMtooboreds
05-27-13, 12:59 PM
http://books.google.com/books?id=LoQhNOrUnkYC&pg=PA106&dq=core+pathology+of+borderline+personality+disord er+the+emotion+dysregulation+hypothesis&hl=en&sa=X&ei=NXujUZKDC7O80AHVgoHwBw&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=core%20pathology%20of%20borderline%20personality %20disorder%20the%20emotion%20dysregulation%20hypo thesis&f=false

seems similar

Huh, really? Emotional dysregulation has always seemed like one of the less pervasive ADHD in what I've read.

daveddd
05-27-13, 01:01 PM
Huh, really? Emotional dysregulation has always seemed like one of the less pervasive ADHD in what I've read.

adhd symptoms?


barkleys current model is based of it

daveddd
05-27-13, 01:04 PM
and further into the book,the 'inborn emotional sensitivity and reactivity' coupled with invalidation and environment, seem very close to what ive seen described as gabor mates construct

atSWIMtooboreds
05-27-13, 01:26 PM
and further into the book,the 'inborn emotional sensitivity and reactivity' coupled with invalidation and environment, seem very close to what ive seen described as gabor mates construct

I know nothing about Mate's writings, but if they've been faithfully presented by their adherents on this board, there's not much value to them.

Barkley's model seems to include difficulties with emotional regulation as a subpart or symptom, but the main problem is executive function generally. That will include a lot of things that are not related to emotional regulation (perception of time, ability to switch attention, facility with physical direction, etc.). Moreover, though, Barkley makes clear that ADHD dysregulation is a problem in which emotions which are not inappropriate to a situation are outwardly manifested to an inappropriate degree. With BPD and the other Cluster B disorders, however, not only are the emotions not sufficiently internalized, I think they are also often situationally inappropriate. BPD is essentially a problem in which people experience rapidly cycling emotions whose power dwarfs their own sense of self. It is like bipolar disorder, but the moods are not as long-lasting and not as cleanly divided into "high" and "low". Most of all it should be associated with frequent and often inexplicable psychological pain. With ADHD, though, like I was saying before, the problem is more that normally feelings are abnormally poorly controlled. But we have abnormally poor control over everything, so that should come as no surprise.

daveddd
05-27-13, 01:41 PM
im not sure which theory of cluster b personalities you are referring to (standard DSM?), but there arent any that have been proven, same with ADHD

marsha linehams biosocial view of BPD, involves emotional regulation issues that are identical to ADHD, difficulties in inhibition,executive function difficulties , and cognitive along with attentional difficulties

along with a strong genetic component

i find her theory interesting and relevant only because she created DBT(mindfulness), which is becoming an increasing topic of interest around these boards and ADHD treatment in general

so i think you may be disagreeing more with my preferred view of cluster Bs , (biosocial) than the point i attempted to make with the thread

atSWIMtooboreds
05-27-13, 01:51 PM
im not sure which theory of cluster b personalities you are referring to (standard DSM?), but there arent any that have been proven, same with ADHD

marsha linehams biosocial view of BPD, involves emotional regulation issues that are identical to ADHD, difficulties in inhibition,executive function difficulties , and cognitive along with attentional difficulties

along with a strong genetic component

i find her theory interesting and relevant only because she created DBT(mindfulness), which is becoming an increasing topic of interest around these boards and ADHD treatment in general

so i think you may be disagreeing more with my preferred view of cluster Bs , (biosocial) than the point i attempted to make with the thread

Oh, okay. Yes, it sounds like you're right: it's BPD we're disagreeing about, not ADHD.

It's worth noting that almost any psychological disorder will have some common difficulties: behavioral problems, for example (since that's the only way these things can be diagnosed), and executive functioning problems. That's one reason why I think Barkley's view of ADHD is a bit underspecified.

daveddd
05-27-13, 01:53 PM
it just seems some of the current adhd theories are just recycled models with a name change

Simenora
06-10-13, 09:14 PM
I can assure everyone, as a severe combined type ADHD with a BPD daughter, aspects of BPD are very different than ADHD. Yes we all suffer emotional regulation issues but the BPD is inappropriate emotion versus mere increase of volume of reaction.

daveddd
06-11-13, 05:48 AM
I can assure everyone, as a severe combined type ADHD with a BPD daughter, aspects of BPD are very different than ADHD. Yes we all suffer emotional regulation issues but the BPD is inappropriate emotion versus mere increase of volume of reaction.

severe combined type myself

BPD sister

the aspects are not that different, its been shown several times recently in studies


the emotional aspects are actually only different in level of severity

i have to go with linehan (the creator of the only succesful bpd treatment) when she says adhd (or similar neurological disorders) were found in a extremely high (much higher than chance) amount of her cases

daveddd
06-11-13, 06:01 AM
but that doesnt mean if you have ADHD, you are BPD

its more they come from the same place(at least a common sub type of BPD)

i would think being they are both highly genetic, that you would agree?

being your situation

daveddd
06-11-13, 06:11 AM
its odd too

if you go back and do some reading from the 1980s

several doctors concluded that this type of BPD was a result of a disorder called 'minimum brain dysfunction '

Fortune
06-11-13, 06:23 AM
If you have ADHD, you have a greater chance of having a cluster B disorder than someone without ADHD, at least per all of the relevant studies I've looked into.

That is, unless you're also autistic, in which case the curve is more toward cluster A or C.

daveddd
06-11-13, 06:45 AM
yes, i think thats the case

but with Avoidant teetering on both

daveddd
06-11-13, 06:50 AM
that is until you add the very important unemotional/callous subtype to any of the cluster Bs

then the correlation with ADHD becomes negative

daveddd
06-11-13, 07:27 PM
Rereading this i need to explain myself better, then Ill leave it be.

ADHD is not BPD, i know that, actually I'll just stick to cluster Bs.

Barkley describes the ADHD infant as having a negative temperament, difficult to console, and sensitive to the environment. Thats because with ADHD comes intense and stronger than normal emotions and or empathy (this has been shown in brain scans as well). I think we all know that much.Now take either a severe case, or a case affected by an event (hence the high rates of PTSD in both disorders ), or even a string of negative events. These intense emotions, coupled with the inability the self regulate can become overwhelming and flooding.

So Ego defense mechanism number one kicks in(personality disorders are just a group of defense mechanisms). The intense negative emotions are cut off from cognition. Meaning the ability to identify, express and regulate them go away. (alexthymia type 2, similar to an autistic shut down)The thing is the visceral feelings stay. Without the ability to resolve, or regulate them they get stronger and stronger.So they have these continuous negative emotions building, but without being able to identify what it is.

They may think of it as a dark force, or tension, leaving them unable to rest, sleep, concentrate, experience joy or basically function, always leaving them on edge,(what is thought of as an inappropriate reaction, isnt to them, not like bipolar at all) and overly dramatic.

So these feelings need to come out. They need to be regulated. So the mind will externalize them into self destructive behavior. Eating disorders, cutting, drugs, acting out and most of your cluster B defense mechanisms.

I see the need to separate this ADHD rooted cluster B behavior (impulsive/reactive), from your unemotional/ callous cluster B behaviors (no remorse, no guilt, no anxiety, basically your sociopath) They are reactive and impulsive. They DO feel guilt. At extraordinary levels, they just dont identify with it.

Thats where the mindfulness DBT comes.

Identify, accept. and regulate emotions..

So ADHD isnt BPD, but it plays a very important role in the development of the most common subtype of it. Its not a separate entity all together.

atSWIMtooboreds
06-11-13, 07:50 PM
Dave, I completely agree with you here in your description of ADHD, and a whole lot of what I don't like about ADD personally is having these things cooped up inside me that I don't really know how to interact with or get out. But I still disagree about the BPD and situation-appropriateness, as I mentioned before. In addition, I think you're not giving quite enough attention to the cognitive impairments associated with cluster-B disorders. You described ADHD individuals as highly empathetic. I don't think anyone would describe cluster-B individuals this way; actually, empathy seems to be one of their "blocks" most of the time.

Fortune
06-11-13, 08:05 PM
Based on Simon Baron-Cohen's tests (but through studies done through other people) people with BPD appear to be empathically oversensitive. This is just as impairing as not having empathy.

You are correct that there are cognitive impairments associated with personality disorders, above and beyond the dysfunctional defense mechanisms.

daveddd
06-11-13, 08:10 PM
no most people would not find cluster Bs empathetic, not the unemotional/callous subtype

for something easy to find you can search unemotional/callous type of ASPD(cluster b and thought to be the male BPD)

but a very specific group of patients continue to surface with these cluster B traits

they use the same cluster B defense mechanisms, but for a totally different reason

you can even check out robert hare's 'secondary psychopath '

they are impulsive, reactive, they cant regulate their emotions and experience unbearable amounts of guilt and anxiety

i can add some things about the cognitive profiles in the patients as well

daveddd
06-11-13, 08:25 PM
also in barkleys most recent book he mentions kids with ADHD are 11 times more likely to have ASPD due to their predisposition to stronger negative emotions

so thats what about 5.5 of the 6 %

the other .5 percent are your unemotional/callous

janiew
06-11-13, 09:56 PM
If you've ever been around people with BPD vs. ADHD, there are huge differences - which is not to say the conditions can't be comorbid. I think I read that a high percentage of people with BPD have ADHD, but not the other way around.

Generally speaking, people with bpd blame, project, lie, cheat, push/pull in relationships, self-harm, threaten suicide as a manipulation tactic, threaten significant others with restraining orders, engage in domestic violence, etc. There is a driving fear of abandonment and at the same time a fear of intimacy. They also feel empty and have no identity. They are a huge ball of immature defense mechanisms and they usually never have a clue that they have BPD. They think they're fine and everyone else has the problem. And if someone told them, they'd deny it. It is way more pervasive and difficult to treat than ADHD. I would not say they are empathetic but they can definitely read people.

In my experience, people with ADHD may experience emotional dysregulation but it's more reality based even though it's heightened. They may experience impulsivity but again I think it's different.

As a person with ADHD, my emotional dysregulation, impulsivity, and inattention cause me anxiety. I was not happy with it and it led me to therapy seven months ago and then to the P-doc who diagnosed me last month. For me, learning what is wrong with me and putting a name to it has been freeing and is leading to greater self-acceptance. And the Adderall helps me with all that.

DBT for BPD is to teach mindfulness of emotions and prevent self-harm. Mindfulness for people with ADHD is to create awareness and concentrate on what we're "doing" more than what we're "feeling" - at least in my experience.

There is a huge difference between those with ADHD and those with BPD - assuming the person isn't comorbid with both.

This is an interesting thread.

Simenora
06-12-13, 12:19 AM
Dave, I completely agree with you here in your description of ADHD, and a whole lot of what I don't like about ADD personally is having these things cooped up inside me that I don't really know how to interact with or get out. But I still disagree about the BPD and situation-appropriateness, as I mentioned before. In addition, I think you're not giving quite enough attention to the cognitive impairments associated with cluster-B disorders. You described ADHD individuals as highly empathetic. I don't think anyone would describe cluster-B individuals this way; actually, empathy seems to be one of their "blocks" most of the time.


Yes I completely agree about situational appropriateness. I have seen my daughter take an over dose because I told her not to hit her brother in the head with a steel toed army boot. She percieved that as me loving him more than her. She also took an overdose because she got behind on homework, something easily rectified with some discussion. I don't know if all bpds are like this but mine is. Emotion completely inappropriate to the situation

Fortune
06-12-13, 12:33 AM
I would not say they are empathetic but they can definitely read people.


I pulled this bit out because the rest strikes me as accurate.

Empathy is the ability to read people. There are two kinds - cognitive empathy (the ability to model what other people are thinking) and affective empathy (the ability to perceive others' emotions).

The study I read indicated that at least some people with BPD have heightened affective empathy, but that this heightened sensitivity to others' emotions made their cognitive empathy significantly less accurate.

janiew
06-12-13, 01:10 AM
I pulled this bit out because the rest strikes me as accurate.

Empathy is the ability to read people. There are two kinds - cognitive empathy (the ability to model what other people are thinking) and affective empathy (the ability to perceive others' emotions).

The study I read indicated that at least some people with BPD have heightened affective empathy, but that this heightened sensitivity to others' emotions made their cognitive empathy significantly less accurate.Fortune, you are right. I am probably referring to the BPD inability to sympathize, though they may be empathetic to some degree. However, I question if they are not stronger on the cognitive empathy side rather than affective empathy. Why? Because they have to mirror people who they are in relationships with because they lack identity. Their ability to mirror is incredible.

Then I question if their affective empathy because they misread a lot of situations and project their own feelings and experiences onto others. This might also be related to the manipulation aspect.

I might be totally off base here. I am not a professional and I am basing it on my experience with BPD people and people with BPD traits.

What do you think?

Fortune
06-12-13, 01:49 AM
I think that their cognitive empathy is probably impaired because of the tendency to misread and read too much into other people's actions. I also do not think that a hypersensitive affective empathy is more accurate, necessarily. It may be overwhelming and thus less accurate.

janiew
06-12-13, 02:32 AM
Yes, I think they are less accurate in their empathetic experience / reasoning due to the immature defense mechanisms and fear of rejection and intimacy.

Sounds like you have experience with people with bpd. As I do. Some people very close to me have significant narc and bpd traits and I still love them. They would be quicker to write me off than vice versa. It's weird.

If you are in a relationship with one, there are many things that can be done to improve communication and relationship skills. Even one sided things on the part of the non-bpd person.

If anyone is interested, I will be happy to share.

daveddd
06-12-13, 06:30 AM
Yes I completely agree about situational appropriateness. I have seen my daughter take an over dose because I told her not to hit her brother in the head with a steel toed army boot. She percieved that as me loving him more than her. She also took an overdose because she got behind on homework, something easily rectified with some discussion. I don't know if all bpds are like this but mine is. Emotion completely inappropriate to the situation

yes, just like i mentioned , completely inappropriate to us

but what youre describing is not at all like random mood swings of bipolar

it is a whole new level of overreacting, but it is still overreacting to an event

daveddd
06-12-13, 06:31 AM
I think that their cognitive empathy is probably impaired because of the tendency to misread and read too much into other people's actions. I also do not think that a hypersensitive affective empathy is more accurate, necessarily. It may be overwhelming and thus less accurate.

that is the reason

it becomes to overwhelming, therefore attunement is lost

daveddd
06-12-13, 06:38 AM
If you've ever been around people with BPD vs. ADHD, there are huge differences - which is not to say the conditions can't be comorbid. I think I read that a high percentage of people with BPD have ADHD, but not the other way around.

Generally speaking, people with bpd blame, project, lie, cheat, push/pull in relationships, self-harm, threaten suicide as a manipulation tactic, threaten significant others with restraining orders, engage in domestic violence, etc. There is a driving fear of abandonment and at the same time a fear of intimacy. They also feel empty and have no identity. They are a huge ball of immature defense mechanisms and they usually never have a clue that they have BPD. They think they're fine and everyone else has the problem. And if someone told them, they'd deny it. It is way more pervasive and difficult to treat than ADHD. I would not say they are empathetic but they can definitely read people.

In my experience, people with ADHD may experience emotional dysregulation but it's more reality based even though it's heightened. They may experience impulsivity but again I think it's different.

As a person with ADHD, my emotional dysregulation, impulsivity, and inattention cause me anxiety. I was not happy with it and it led me to therapy seven months ago and then to the P-doc who diagnosed me last month. For me, learning what is wrong with me and putting a name to it has been freeing and is leading to greater self-acceptance. And the Adderall helps me with all that.

DBT for BPD is to teach mindfulness of emotions and prevent self-harm. Mindfulness for people with ADHD is to create awareness and concentrate on what we're "doing" more than what we're "feeling" - at least in my experience.

There is a huge difference between those with ADHD and those with BPD - assuming the person isn't comorbid with both.

This is an interesting thread.

i agree with a lot of this

other than your view of comorbid

ADHD involves a negative temperament that can make you vulnerable to cluster Bs

there is no coincidental comorbid there

there are different sub types of BPD, the ones with ADHD all present the same

they are not unemotional or callous, at least interpersonally, although they may appear to be

and DBT for ADHD is very much about focusing on emotion as well

atSWIMtooboreds
06-12-13, 06:52 AM
i agree with a lot of this

other than your view of comorbid

ADHD involves a negative temperament that can make you vulnerable to cluster Bs

there is no coincidental comorbid there

there are different sub types of BPD, the ones with ADHD all present the same

they are not unemotional or callous, at least interpersonally, although they may appear to be

and DBT for ADHD is very much about focusing on emotion as well

I think we all agree that there are some links, but structurally, don't you think there are enough differences to suggest that, insofar as the constructs look the same, it means they're not sufficiently detailed? What I mean to say is - emotional dysregulation seems to look different in BPD and ADHD. So you would agree that the constructs ought to take account of that difference, right?

daveddd
06-12-13, 06:57 AM
yes, i know BPD is not ADHD

but i firmly believe that a lot of BPD cases(certain types) are underlayed by ADHDc

and that should be accounted for

and it is by quite a few, another neurological model
http://books.google.com/books?id=mF2poNOgOGkC&pg=PA5&dq=neurodevelopmental+borderline+personality&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ZXV4UcCoAceRqwH9mIGIAw&ved=0CEMQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=neurodevelopmental%20borderline%20personality&f=false

sorry its hard to get to exact pages of books i read, i cant copy the purchased versions

atSWIMtooboreds
06-12-13, 07:10 AM
Okay, that I don't think I'll dispute. Actually, it makes sense to me. I think you know that I tend to have views that are, broadly, genetic/neurochemical/neurological about ADHD: in my view, ADHD is "deeper down" than BPD, and so it makes sense that it could be a cause or some sort of underlying influence in BPD cases. I mean, so many of us have developed social issues resulting from the reception of our ADHD in later years. My understanding of BPD is that it's often traced to attachment issues. So similarly negative reception of ADHD in parents, if it's early enough in development, could presumably lead to BPD.

But this isn't the same as the models looking the same. I think it's really important to note that ADHD has elements that are not necessary for BPD, and that BPD has elements that are at least add-ons of some sort to the emotional dysregulation in ADHD. Take, for example, "affective instability", as mentioned in the book you linked. For an ADHD adult, affective instability could mean something like being short-tempered or getting easily frustrated due to attention issues: you have a greater need for someone to get to the point, or to speak sensibly, or something, and so you flip out a little more than usual about stuff like that. For a BPD adult, affective instability means things like the parent earlier in this thread mentioned: threatening to hurt yourself, screaming and wailing in public, little to no sense of boundaries in romantic relationships, interpersonal black and white thinking (the important people in your life are either God or Satan to you), etc. This is not a subtle distinction; these are very different sorts of behaviors, and the theory does need to accommodate them.

I think I've mentioned this before, at least in other threads, but I'm an ADHD adult who has had multiple BPD romantic partners in the past, so my judgment may be a little bit skewed. I don't think anybody will feel slighted by my post, but I apologize if somebody does; it's very clearly colored as much by my experience as by my knowledge of the academic literature.

daveddd
06-12-13, 07:12 AM
If you've ever been around people with BPD vs. ADHD, there are huge differences - which is not to say the conditions can't be comorbid. I think I read that a high percentage of people with BPD have ADHD, but not the other way around.

Generally speaking, people with bpd blame, project, lie, cheat, push/pull in relationships, self-harm, threaten suicide as a manipulation tactic, threaten significant others with restraining orders, engage in domestic violence, etc. There is a driving fear of abandonment and at the same time a fear of intimacy. They also feel empty and have no identity. They are a huge ball of immature defense mechanisms and they usually never have a clue that they have BPD. They think they're fine and everyone else has the problem. And if someone told them, they'd deny it. It is way more pervasive and difficult to treat than ADHD. I would not say they are empathetic but they can definitely read people.

In my experience, people with ADHD may experience emotional dysregulation but it's more reality based even though it's heightened. They may experience impulsivity but again I think it's different.

As a person with ADHD, my emotional dysregulation, impulsivity, and inattention cause me anxiety. I was not happy with it and it led me to therapy seven months ago and then to the P-doc who diagnosed me last month. For me, learning what is wrong with me and putting a name to it has been freeing and is leading to greater self-acceptance. And the Adderall helps me with all that.

DBT for BPD is to teach mindfulness of emotions and prevent self-harm. Mindfulness for people with ADHD is to create awareness and concentrate on what we're "doing" more than what we're "feeling" - at least in my experience.

There is a huge difference between those with ADHD and those with BPD - assuming the person isn't comorbid with both.

This is an interesting thread.

one last important thing , again i have a BPD person in family as well , it is very common in ADHD families, and hopefully we can understand them better

what to us is viewed as manipulative, may not be to them

the most immature and powerful defense 'projective identification ', may appear manipulative, but is a desperate attempt to communicate a powerful and scary feeling the person has, yet they cannot identify or express

daveddd
06-12-13, 07:17 AM
Okay, that I don't think I'll dispute. Actually, it makes sense to me. I think you know that I tend to have views that are, broadly, genetic/neurochemical/neurological about ADHD: in my view, ADHD is "deeper down" than BPD, and so it makes sense that it could be a cause or some sort of underlying influence in BPD cases. I mean, so many of us have developed social issues resulting from the reception of our ADHD in later years. My understanding of BPD is that it's often traced to attachment issues. So similarly negative reception of ADHD in parents, if it's early enough in development, could presumably lead to BPD.

But this isn't the same as the models looking the same. I think it's really important to note that ADHD has elements that are not necessary for BPD, and that BPD has elements that are at least add-ons of some sort to the emotional dysregulation in ADHD. Take, for example, "affective instability", as mentioned in the book you linked. For an ADHD adult, affective instability could mean something like being short-tempered or getting easily frustrated due to attention issues: you have a greater need for someone to get to the point, or to speak sensibly, or something, and so you flip out a little more than usual about stuff like that. For a BPD adult, affective instability means things like the parent earlier in this thread mentioned: threatening to hurt yourself, screaming and wailing in public, little to no sense of boundaries in romantic relationships, interpersonal black and white thinking (the important people in your life are either God or Satan to you), etc. This is not a subtle distinction; these are very different sorts of behaviors, and the theory does need to accommodate them.

I think I've mentioned this before, at least in other threads, but I'm an ADHD adult who has had multiple BPD romantic partners in the past, so my judgment may be a little bit skewed. I don't think anybody will feel slighted by my post, but I apologize if somebody does; it's very clearly colored as much by my experience as by my knowledge of the academic literature.

yea i know the differences, the title was referring to some recent ADHD constructs that have popped up

they same to copy linehans BPD version


isnt it weird that so many people on here have had relationships with BPDs ???

atSWIMtooboreds
06-12-13, 07:20 AM
yea i know the differences, the title was referring to some recent ADHD constructs that have popped up

they same to copy linehans BPD version


isnt it weird that so many people on here have had relationships with BPDs ???

Yes... Well, they sure know how to keep our attention, don't they! :lol:

But I guess what I would say is that, to the extent that the ADHD versions do mimic the BPD construct, so much the worse for those theories of ADHD. They shouldn't; the emotional issues are not the whole story for ADHD, and they're very different anyway.

daveddd
06-12-13, 08:34 AM
Yes on the surface the emotional regulation issues are different

Due to the use of defense mechanisms. Brought on by an outside force

But the issues with self regulation and emotional sensitive (neurologically speaking ). Are one in the same


The cognitive issues exist the same in the impulsive type bpd as well

I have info on that as well

This is the same as how Barkley says ADHD causes the aspd in several cases

The presentation in women is just different

atSWIMtooboreds
06-12-13, 08:40 AM
But the issues with self regulation and emotional sensitive (neurologically speaking ). Are one in the same

Is this right? I know, for instance, that the amygdala is supposed to be much more reactive in borderline patients, and that it's actually supposed to be smaller in ADHD patients.

daveddd
06-12-13, 09:06 AM
The amygdala is overreactive in the same way (according to brain scans)

Same with aspd(not the callous unemotional. Theirs are under reactive )


This is mainly only shown while viewing negative faces. With the test fortune mentioned

atSWIMtooboreds
06-12-13, 09:19 AM
The amygdala is overreactive in the same way (according to brain scans)

Same with aspd(not the callous unemotional. Theirs are under reactive )


This is mainly only shown while viewing negative faces. With the test fortune mentioned

Interesting, thanks. Obviously I need to do some more research! :D Thanks as always for bringing up an intriguing perspective.

sarahsweets
06-12-13, 09:46 AM
I was diagnosed with adhd at age 5 and BPII at age 16 and they were very different.

daveddd
06-12-13, 11:01 AM
Yea. 90% of people with bipolar will meet the criteria for ADHD

The relationship is fairly obvious there But I was referring to borderline personality

janiew
06-12-13, 11:56 AM
DBT for ADHD is very much about focusing on emotion as well

I haven't had DBT for ADHD. I am working on mindfulness with my psychologist and the focus is more physical the way we're doing it. He recommended two books on it that I am in the process of reading. Jon Cabot Zinn and Bhante Gunaratana.

daveddd
06-12-13, 12:07 PM
Yea. Another member recommended one of those too

I'm trying to start it

But things choose me to read them more than I can choose to read things

janiew
06-12-13, 02:16 PM
My psychologist told me to start by relaxing my tongue and my thumbs and that the rest follows in line, to feel the effects of gravity on the body, and to pay attention to breathing. Work up to focusing on three reps of 10 in breathing. Baby steps for the busy mind. :)

daveddd
06-13-13, 07:13 AM
http://books.google.com/books?id=A9WvSX6yxRwC&pg=PA37&dq=diathesis+stress+model+millon&hl=en&sa=X&ei=hRy1UcLPJ4bxqQGDkYGwCg&ved=0CD8Q6AEwAzgK#v=onepage&q=diathesis%20stress%20model%20millon&f=false


if you scroll down one page you can see the interaction of intense emotion i was talking about, maybe it explains it better than i could

daveddd
06-17-13, 05:22 AM
i can understand the need to separate ourselves cluster Bs, its a scary thought

but the amount of cluster B behavior justified lately around here as being ADHD is quite a bit

which fits well with this theory of the interplay between the 2

Fortune
06-17-13, 05:23 AM
i can understand the need to separate ourselves cluster Bs, its a scary thought

but the amount of cluster B behavior justified lately around here as being ADHD is quite a bit

which fits well with this theory of the interplay between the 2

Say what now?

daveddd
06-17-13, 05:36 AM
all im saying is the ADHD symptom cluster seems to be expanding greatly, and it seems we have the ability to assign symptoms to ADHD if we dont like the alternatives



remember the old adage.....if you meet the criteria.....

Fortune
06-17-13, 08:22 AM
all im saying is the ADHD symptom cluster seems to be expanding greatly, and it seems we have the ability to assign symptoms to ADHD if we dont like the alternatives

remember the old adage.....if you meet the criteria.....

That's an adage?

I mean, do you have any examples of this?

daveddd
06-17-13, 08:56 AM
I won't single anyone out. No

daveddd
06-17-13, 09:45 AM
Ok I added the adage part


But Barkley says about ADHD. If you meet the criteria. You have it


The self harm talk eating disorders. Those are all cluster b traits. Being attributed to ADHD

Which I agree with. Severe adhdc leads to in several cases clusters b defenses

It was the point of my thread

Fortune
06-17-13, 04:34 PM
Neither self harm nor eating disorders are strictly cluster b traits. They're features that are assocated with BPD, but you still need other features to meet the criteria for BPD. The association is more broad than cluster B and extends well outside the boundaries of personality disorders.

janiew
06-17-13, 05:22 PM
Based on my experience with people with bpd, it comes back to defense mechanisms. Adhd not so much. Self awareness is important and neither group is known for it for different reasons.

daveddd
06-17-13, 05:23 PM
Yes but most doctors will call those cluster b traits

daveddd
06-17-13, 05:26 PM
Splitting. Black and white thinking. Projection. All get thrown around as ADHD traits as well


I can't see how they can be neurological

Fortune
06-17-13, 05:38 PM
Yes but most doctors will call those cluster b traits

I am somewhat dubious of this. In my discussions with doctors recently, I've found that many are reluctant to refer to cluster B possibilities without a lot of information to go on because such a label can cause significant problems for clients.

Splitting. Black and white thinking. Projection. All get thrown around as ADHD traits as well

I can't see how they can be neurological

I seem to recall reading about how traumatic brain injury can cause black and white thinking. It's also common with autism, which is considered to be a neurological disorder.

Projection is a dysfunctional defense mechanism that is common for personality disorders in general, but it is something people without personality disorders do as well.

Splitting is definitely something I've only seen referenced as specifically related to personality disorders.

atSWIMtooboreds
06-17-13, 05:38 PM
Splitting. Black and white thinking. Projection. All get thrown around as ADHD traits as well


I can't see how they can be neurological

What do you mean? What else could they be?

daveddd
06-17-13, 06:29 PM
they are psychological

daveddd
06-17-13, 06:31 PM
I am somewhat dubious of this. In my discussions with doctors recently, I've found that many are reluctant to refer to cluster B possibilities without a lot of information to go on because such a label can cause significant problems for clients.



I seem to recall reading about how traumatic brain injury can cause black and white thinking. It's also common with autism, which is considered to be a neurological disorder.

Projection is a dysfunctional defense mechanism that is common for personality disorders in general, but it is something people without personality disorders do as well.

Splitting is definitely something I've only seen referenced as specifically related to personality disorders.

yes, it is common in autism, probably part of what fortune mentioned about autistics being prone to cluster A and Cs

Fortune
06-17-13, 06:53 PM
they are psychological

Black and white thinking can be caused by traumatic brain injury.

daveddd
06-17-13, 06:58 PM
ok, one thing, one rare exception

daveddd
06-17-13, 07:10 PM
i guess my question is then, fortune

do you have any theories or information on why a lot of adults with ADHD(especially who werent dx as children) develop a lot of the same unhealthy coping mechanisms as cluster Bs

although for different reasons?

and what may help them?

because ultimately thats what im looking for

Fortune
06-17-13, 07:16 PM
I don't think it's a rare exception. There is a reason that black and white thinking occurs with autism, ADHD, and traumatic brain injury - and it's not because the people who have the first two conditions must necessarily also have disordered personalities. Depression can result in black and white thinking. It's also helpful to distinguish different kinds of black and white thinking. In autism, it's part of concrete thinking common among autistic people - this is how it works with TBI as well, and fits the overall pattern of autistic symptoms resembling various forms of TBI without being TBI. Autistic concrete thinking does not typically involve splitting.

I think that explicitly labeling behaviors as clear examples of personality disordered behavior at all times is a really terrible direction to go. Just because a behavior is common among people with particular personality disorders doesn't mean that the behavior is a hardcoded sign of a personality disorder, and it really shouldn't be labeled as such.

I am also uncertain that one can so easily say "this is psychological but not neurological." I mean, where, precisely, does one's psychology originate? Can you have minds without brains?

Fortune
06-17-13, 07:25 PM
i guess my question is then, fortune

do you have any theories or information on why a lot of adults with ADHD(especially who werent dx as children) develop a lot of the same unhealthy coping mechanisms as cluster Bs

although for different reasons?

and what may help them?

because ultimately thats what im looking for

I think that growing up with untreated ADHD is a recipe for disaster for most people. Coming out of it healthy and well-adjusted seems like a fairly difficult task. The behaviors you describe taken in isolation shouldn't be considered part of a personality disorder and shouldn't be concretely categorized as "cluster B." They may often point to axis I disorders such as depression, anxiety, or PTSD.

I think that the best thing for people to do is undergo thorough evaluations or at least therapy, and also be willing to work on these problems rather than find ways to blame them on other things. Dialectical behavioral therapy and cognitive behavioral therapy (mindful or otherwise) may be quite helpful in resolving some of these things.

While people with ADHD seem to be more likely to develop cluster B personality disorders, this doesn't reflect a majority or even a large minority of people presenting with these disorders.

daveddd
06-17-13, 07:28 PM
what are personality disorders to you?

do you believe they are their own illnesses? each type a separate illness?


say for example a very large group of a specific disorder (lets go with ADHD) meet the criteria for a certain cluster of PDs

but then you take that same group of ADHD people, and use a dimensional trait chart for that same cluster of PDs and the results are overwhelmingly more than the general population

would you still not be curios on linking the two in order to HELP not label anyone

specific groups from each disorder maybe

because there are very clear differences when you add sociopathic traits to cluster Bs, so im not talking about them

daveddd
06-17-13, 07:30 PM
I think that growing up with untreated ADHD is a recipe for disaster for most people. Coming out of it healthy and well-adjusted seems like a fairly difficult task. The behaviors you describe taken in isolation shouldn't be considered part of a personality disorder and shouldn't be concretely categorized as "cluster B." They may often point to axis I disorders such as depression, anxiety, or PTSD.

I think that the best thing for people to do is undergo thorough evaluations or at least therapy, and also be willing to work on these problems rather than find ways to blame them on other things. Dialectical behavioral therapy and cognitive behavioral therapy (mindful or otherwise) may be quite helpful in resolving some of these things.

While people with ADHD seem to be more likely to develop cluster B personality disorders, this doesn't reflect a majority or even a large minority of people presenting with these disorders.

actually linehan found up to 80 percent of her BPD patients with neurological disorders (ADHD epilepsy then developmental coordination disorders)

daveddd
06-17-13, 07:34 PM
I think that growing up with untreated ADHD is a recipe for disaster for most people. Coming out of it healthy and well-adjusted seems like a fairly difficult task. The behaviors you describe taken in isolation shouldn't be considered part of a personality disorder and shouldn't be concretely categorized as "cluster B." They may often point to axis I disorders such as depression, anxiety, or PTSD.

I think that the best thing for people to do is undergo thorough evaluations or at least therapy, and also be willing to work on these problems rather than find ways to blame them on other things. Dialectical behavioral therapy and cognitive behavioral therapy (mindful or otherwise) may be quite helpful in resolving some of these things.

While people with ADHD seem to be more likely to develop cluster B personality disorders, this doesn't reflect a majority or even a large minority of people presenting with these disorders.

thats my issue

both sets of people have extreme difficulties when when in their specific treatment type

i know this personally, as well as throughout literature

so instead of the word blame (thats a little black and white) i was thinking, exploring the interaction, to assist the large amount of people who werent helped by what you think is the ideal solution

Fortune
06-17-13, 07:35 PM
That's going the other way, though: It's like a significant majority of people with bipolar disorder (I forget the exact number) meet the criteria for ADHD, but the reverse is not also true. 80% of people with BPD may also meet the criteria for ADHD, but that doesn't mean that the number of people with ADHD who also have BPD is anywhere near that high. The research I have read doesn't even suggest that.

Fortune
06-17-13, 07:37 PM
thats my issue

both sets of people have extreme difficulties when when in their specific treatment type

i know this personally, as well as throughout literature

so instead of the word blame (thats a little black and white) i was thinking, exploring the interaction, to assist the large amount of people who werent helped by what you think is the ideal solution

I don't think that a large amount of people have even had access to what I think is the ideal solution.

As far as the blame crack goes, I guess I'm out of this thread.

atSWIMtooboreds
06-17-13, 07:42 PM
they are psychological

I think Fortune said this, but I'm not sure there is anything psychological that isn't neurological. I mean, we all have brains, and that's where our minds are. Features of our minds are ipso facto features of our brains. Right?

daveddd
06-17-13, 07:50 PM
I think Fortune said this, but I'm not sure there is anything psychological that isn't neurological. I mean, we all have brains, and that's where our minds are. Features of our minds are ipso facto features of our brains. Right?

ok i get that


do you really not know the difference in what im talking about



all you have to do is read these threads for a day and see the struggles people have even after their... correct treatment modalities , i guess?

i see it here, and daily in my life

daveddd
06-17-13, 07:59 PM
That's going the other way, though: It's like a significant majority of people with bipolar disorder (I forget the exact number) meet the criteria for ADHD, but the reverse is not also true. 80% of people with BPD may also meet the criteria for ADHD, but that doesn't mean that the number of people with ADHD who also have BPD is anywhere near that high. The research I have read doesn't even suggest that.

yea, and took a look around here

id say bipolar is pretty important around here

a significant amount of still impaired adults suffer a lot of the same issues as cluster Bs

atSWIMtooboreds
06-17-13, 08:14 PM
ok i get that


do you really not know the difference in what im talking about



all you have to do is read these threads for a day and see the struggles people have even after their... correct treatment modalities , i guess?

i see it here, and daily in my life

Sure, but - the fact that treatment isn't 100% effective doesn't justify making a hard distinction between neurology and psychology, I don't think.

daveddd
06-17-13, 08:18 PM
Sure, but - the fact that treatment isn't 100% effective doesn't justify making a hard distinction between neurology and psychology, I don't think.

i wasnt looking for any distinction

the interactions is all, the hows and whys