I keep reading all these posts with people saying how while on Add medication their Motivation is so much better and how much they get done . Isn't this the effect that stimulants have on just about everyone ADD or not . Now that I am off medication getting motivated is the main thing I miss and if I need to exercise clean house study or just about anything that I have trouble motivating myself to do I always wish I had my ADD meds . I guess what I am saying as I read how people who are not ADD react to stimulants it seems that is the same as those of us who are ADD .

Give a ADD student a stimulant and it helps them in school ... Give a non ADD student a stimulant and it helps them in school ... Give a ADD person a stimulant and it helps them get organized and motivated ... Give a non ADD person a stimulant and it helps them get organized and motivated . Give a ADD person a stimulant and it helps them workout and loose weight . Give a non ADD person a stimulant and it helps them workout and loose weight . And on and on ...
I guess I just want to start taking Adderall or Ritilan or Dexedrin again ... and I am defiantly ADD and have been since I was a child . I just now question the whole idea that we need this drug any more than the non ADD people who it does the same thing for . I think many of us who are ADD have trouble with motivation but taking a drug that helps with motivation may be going at the symptom and not the problem . I think when I am off the meds and must really work on the things that help my ADD i get better becuase my skills at dealing with ADD get better . When I was on the meds I got better when I took a pill but my ADD was only better on the pill becuase I did not need to develop skills to control the ADD the pill did the work for me .
I think it is possible to get much better if we learn to control ADD without medication but it takes a lot of work and you must motivate yourself and not rely on the pill to do all the work . I know this concept is not going to be popular with a lot of people and I ask . Is it not popular becuase it is just easier to take a pill or .... Or is it not popular becuase you really think you do not have the power within yourself to do on your own what the pill is doing for you .

Looking back at almost 7 years on a stimulant and how it gave me this artificial motivation that I became dependent on ... I am starting to think I cheated myself out of the skills to do on my own what the drug was doing . Now that I have been off for a year I can motivate myself to do anything the meds motivated me to do if I want it bad enough I just had to develop new skills Skills I always possessed but never used until I did not have the pill . I just wanted to share this with you becuase if a Dr had said to me I could have gotten much better without drugs and taught me skills to get better I would have chosen the drug free way .

Again as I look back on it the Dr gave me the pills becuase it was the easy thing for him to do ... listen to me talk and write out a script instead of really helping me get better . Like a diet you only keep the weight off while you are on the diet if you go off the diet the weight comes back . The ADD only gets better when you are on the pill when you stop the pill the ADD comes back . With weight if you work hard and change your habits and lifestyle the weight stays off becuase it is a lifestyle change that is permanent . With ADD I also think if you work hard and change your habits and lifestyle the ADD really gets better and stays better becuase it is a true lifestyle change that is permanent .

Isn't this the effect that stimulants have on just about everyone ADD or not....I guess what I am saying as I read how people who are not ADD react to stimulants it seems that is the same as those of us who are ADD.
Ummmm......No. Not true at all, actually. Someone on stimulant therapy who does not NEED stimulant therapy will not react the same way as an ADHDer on a prescribed med in proper dose. Anyone taking stimulant meds that doesn't require them is generally stealing someone's rx, buying it from them illegally, or is on crack, cocaine, or God knows what else. I would hardly find anything I "read" about the positive effects they have as being from a reliable source.

Give a ADD student a stimulant and it helps them in school ... Give a non ADD student a stimulant and it helps them in school ... Give a ADD person a stimulant and it helps them get organized and motivated ... Give a non ADD person a stimulant and it helps them get organized and motivated . Give a ADD person a stimulant and it helps them workout and loose weight . Give a non ADD person a stimulant and it helps them workout and loose weight . And on and on
Ummmm......No, again. Give an ADHD student a prescribed stimulant and it helps them do better in school. Give it to a NON-ADHD student and watch as they freak out with anxiety and think they're going to have a heart attack, get a major headache, and quite possibly act more spastic than any ADHDer ever did. Yes, I've actually seen it. The paragraph above is completely out of the realm of anything even close to proven scientific research.


I guess I just want to start taking Adderall or Ritilan or Dexedrin again ... and I am defiantly ADD and have been since I was a child . I just now question the whole idea that we need this drug any more than the non ADD people who it does the same thing for . I think many of us who are ADD have trouble with motivation but taking a drug that helps with motivation may be going at the symptom and not the problem.
You question the idea of meds...yet you want them. OK. Makes me think, say.......addiction problem? Do you see the contradiction in thought?? I would personally love not to have to take my meds. No, they don't "cure" the "problem." FYI, many of the drugs you likely take on a daily basis don't "cure" the "problem." Ever taken a cough drop? Ever taken a decongestant? Ever taken a pain reliever? Why? They weren't curing the "problem" either. Your hypothesis here reminds me of the evangelist dude who told my deeply spiritual mother she could cure her own Multiple Sclerosis if her heart and mind were really in the right place! Your line of thinking here is just about equally incredulous. But incredulous is a surefire way to get me to LMAO so perhaps I should thank you for the diversion.


I think when I am off the meds and must really work on the things that help my ADD i get better becuase my skills at dealing with ADD get better . When I was on the meds I got better when I took a pill but my ADD was only better on the pill becuase I did not need to develop skills to control the ADD the pill did the work for me.
Interesting. Again, you think you were a better person, gaining more and more skill off your meds....but want them back...As for the pill doing all the work so that you didn't need to, I can tell you for certain that my meds are necessary...HOWEVER, they don't do anything to make me a better, more skillful, more insightful, learned person. Same is true for anyone else here. Any progress we make is because we DON'T rely on meds to "do the work." Do you understand that at all? I'm almost wondering if you really AREN'T ADHD because I find your ideology so impossible to believe coming from someone who has dealt with the utter anguish of this.

I think it is possible to get much better if we learn to control ADD without medication but it takes a lot of work and you must motivate yourself and not rely on the pill to do all the work . I know this concept is not going to be popular with a lot of people and I ask . Is it not popular becuase it is just easier to take a pill or .... Or is it not popular becuase you really think you do not have the power within yourself to do on your own what the pill is doing for you.
If you thought that for real, you wouldn't want your meds back. Period on that score. As for the question of being powerless within oneself to make change....I could give you a spiel that would blow your hair back on that one. I could tell you of people here who have overcome more difficulty because ot the POWER WITHIN THEM than you would clearly be able to comprehend. Personally, I don't cower to obstacles. Not before meds, not after. And while your comments might be funny to me, I haven't struggled with near the amount of wrongdoing and injustice due to my ADHD as many here. You words have the potential to hurt those who have dealt with the stereotypical, judgmental, abusive behavior that sometimes, make that A LOT of the time, comes with ADHD.

Looking back at almost 7 years on a stimulant and how it gave me this artificial motivation that I became dependent on ... I am starting to think I cheated myself out of the skills to do on my own what the drug was doing . Now that I have been off for a year I can motivate myself to do anything the meds motivated me to do if I want it bad enough I just had to develop new skills Skills I always possessed but never used until I did not have the pill . I just wanted to share this with you becuase if a Dr had said to me I could have gotten much better without drugs and taught me skills to get better I would have chosen the drug free way.
Just my opinion, but a post such as yours would not have come from someone who had actually had any real ADHD realization or enlightenment. Honestly, it's much more akin to the spouting done by those who have no idea what ADHD is in the first place. Do you think, btw, that my mom could "cure" her problem using your theory? Please do tell if so. I would LOVE to know the secret.


Again as I look back on it the Dr gave me the pills becuase it was the easy thing for him to do ... listen to me talk and write out a script instead of really helping me get better . Like a diet you only keep the weight off while you are on the diet if you go off the diet the weight comes back . The ADD only gets better when you are on the pill when you stop the pill the ADD comes back.
My Doc isn't like that at all.....must be that I'm just so charming to talk to. And guess what? If you've got strep throat and don't take antibiotics that'll come back too. If you've got high blood pressure and don't take your meds, it comes back. If you've got cancer and don't take the chemo or radiation....it AIN'T going away on it's own....If you had any such condition what would you do then?

With weight if you work hard and change your habits and lifestyle the weight stays off becuase it is a lifestyle change that is permanent . With ADD I also think if you work hard and change your habits and lifestyle the ADD really gets better and stays better becuase it is a true lifestyle change that is permanent .
WOW!!!!!!! I agree with you on something. Good physical fitness is an important part of a healthy lifestyle. Let's see.....Monogamy is a lifestyle, too. There are lots of different lifestyles. ADHD isn't a lifestyle. And if people actually read this entire post of yours, THAT"S WHY IT"S GOING TO BE "unpopular."

Hmmm I was going to comment on this thread...but \heh Free done it for me..I dont think i can improve on that.

FREE GIVES DRAGA A BIG HUG.

I KNOW IT ISN'T EXACTLY AS GOOD AS A DINNER INVITATION FROM JOSH.....BUT IT'S THE BEST I CAN DO.

;) :)

Yep, I think all the major points got covered!
What bothers me about "Mee's" point of view is the contention that the stimulant is some sort of cheat that makes life easy. Rather it levels the playing field - with stimulants we are more like "normal" people with regards to procrastination, focus, willpower, etc. Most of use ADDers - especially those who have been diagnosed later in life - bristle at the words "if he/she would/could only work harder" since we've been hearing it most of our lives, so to hear it from someone who claims to be "one of us", especially when put in the form of "you should quit taking pills and just work harder", is galling to say the least!
I don't question "Mee's" right to an opinion and to express it freely, and the choice to take or not to take medication is a personal decision - to each his own - but I do not like the "Holier than thou" attitude.

greg,

my thoughts exactly. well....you know.....the short, readable version!!!! LOL!!!!

FREE GIVES DRAGA A BIG HUG.

I KNOW IT ISN'T EXACTLY AS GOOD AS A DINNER INVITATION FROM JOSH.....BUT IT'S THE BEST I CAN DO.

;) :)


Just the thought of entertaining the notion still does not compare to a big hug from a friend :)...Can I get an AWEEEE :D

Just the thought of entertaining the notion still does not compare to a big hug from a friend :)...Can I get an AWEEEE :D


AWWWEEEE!!!!!:) :D

I just found that that the stimulants that gave me so much relief in the beginning but after a few years started to loose their effectiveness and the side effects started to cause problems . Most of the post I read here seem to be from people who have been on stimulants for only a few years . My problems with side effects started to get bad after many years of building up tolerance to these drugs and having to take higher doses as time went on . Just was wondering if anyone has experienced the same thing .

P. S. Gregster I understand what you are saying and do not mean to come off the wrong way ..... I just found that the side effects of many years on these drugs started to take its toll , and they did not work like they did in the beginning once I would build tolerance .

Free, thanks for saying it for me.

Mee, could you be more specific about the side effects so we can get a better understanding of your comments? I was told that "tolerance" means "addiction".

tolerance is constant need to raise the dose to get the same effect ..... is there no one here who has experienced this

This is from the Merck Manual of Diagnosis and Therapy:
“Two concepts contribute to the definition of drug dependence: tolerance, which describes the need to progressively increase the dose to produce the effect originally achieved with smaller doses, and physical dependence, a state of physiologic adaptation to a drug, manifested by a withdrawal (abstinence) syndrome. In a withdrawal syndrome, untoward physiologic changes occur when the drug is discontinued or when its effect is counteracted by a specific antagonist that displaces the agonist from its binding site on cell receptors. Physical dependence does not accompany all forms of drug dependence.”

When I read articles like these ...


http://www.ucsbdailynexus.com/news/2005/8847.html

http://www.channelcincinnati.com/health/4176899/detail.html

where non ADD people seem to be getting the same benefits as I do for things like studying it seems that these drugs give non ADD people an edge also ...... am I allowed to make observations like this on this board ...

Oh, Mee,
These are articles in the media. The expert who assessed and observed me before and after medication, and then made his diagnosis of ADD, told me that everyone benefits a little by stimulant medication. People like me benefit a LOT with medication and in specific ways. I, too, asked about "tolerance" as I had heard this about stimulants and he told me the same information that I quoted from the Merck Manual.I do not "speed" on Ritalin, I calm down - the paradoxil effect. Coffee does not keep me awake at night. In fact, one of the old questions for potential ADDers was, "How much caffeine do you consume each day?", as in self-medication.

In for a penny . . .
I also don't get "high" on Cannabis. When I was given a dose of morphine for extreme post-surgical pain I did not get drugged or feel "high", just pain free and alert.

I became concerned and confused by media reports about the street use of stimulants and asked an expert. He explained that the non-ADD recreational use of Ritalin is as an enhancer with other drugs at much larger doses than normal, therapeutic doses. Have you read any media reports that add that little bit of information?

When I read things like The first time I really experienced it was my freshman year," said an area college student who wished to remain anonymous.


The student, whom we'll call Joel to protect his identity, admitted his misuse of the drugs and told News 5 how they made focusing and accomplishing everyday challenges much easier.

"For example, if I felt like cleaning the house, this place would be so clean that you'll see it glow," he said.

Joel started using Ritalin when a friend with a prescription offered it to him.

"I'm afraid it's real common," said Dr. Richard Heyman, a drug abuse expert.

Heyman said it's not surprising that people without prescriptions try to get their hands on the medicine, because it works.

"Used in a situation in which a person needs like a sudden help to learn something or study something or stay focused, they probably are effective," Heyman said.

Heyman said using Ritalin and Adderall occasionally in order to study or focus on a task is probably not all that harmful, even for those without a prescription.

I start to feel that these drugs give non ADD people the same benefits . I think back to the Dr.'s saying how stimulates work different on people with ADD from the reports of people using these drugs to study ... clean their house .... to give them focus .... etc .. etc ... it seems that is not the case .

. . . everyone benefits a little by stimulant medication. People like me benefit a LOT with medication and in specific ways.
Sorry, Mee, but this is getting boring. My stimulant must be wearing off.

Free wrote ....Ummmm......No. Not true at all, actually. Someone on stimulant therapy who does not NEED stimulant therapy will not react the same way as an ADHDer on a prescribed med in proper dose. Anyone taking stimulant meds that doesn't require them is generally stealing someone's rx, buying it from them illegally, or is on crack, cocaine, or God knows what else. I would hardly find anything I "read" about the positive effects they have as being from a reliable source.

Ummmmm, then why is stimulant medication banned from Olympics? Answer=because it enhances performance. Stimulants also help people in many professions. Truck Drivers ues them, performers use them, and yes, even adolescents use them to get A's in their exams. Non ADD Kids. It's all over the web on forums, just like this one. Are they not to be believed? I read of one where a 20 yr old said he was about to fake ADHD to get Adderall.

Ummmm......No, again. Give an ADHD student a prescribed stimulant and it helps them do better in school. Give it to a NON-ADHD student and watch as they freak out with anxiety and think they're going to have a heart attack, get a major headache, and quite possibly act more spastic than any ADHDer ever did. Yes, I've actually seen it. The paragraph above is completely out of the realm of anything even close to proven scientific research.

So that's why my daughter took all those Amphetamines and got straight A's? And NO ONE could have been more relaxed on them than she was. Hyper? Yes. But no more than anyone I have observed on here. No, she did not have ADHD.


You question the idea of meds...yet you want them. OK. Makes me think, say.......addiction problem? Do you see the contradiction in thought?? I would personally love not to have to take my meds. No, they don't "cure" the "problem." FYI, many of the drugs you likely take on a daily basis don't "cure" the "problem." Ever taken a cough drop? Ever taken a decongestant? Ever taken a pain reliever? Why? They weren't curing the "problem" either. Your hypothesis here reminds me of the evangelist dude who told my deeply spiritual mother she could cure her own Multiple Sclerosis if her heart and mind were really in the right place! Your line of thinking here is just about equally incredulous. But incredulous is a surefire way to get me to LMAO so perhaps I should thank you for the diversion.

Ok Free, you allude to Mee as having a drug problem. Perhaps your "fighting" for the use of these drugs, which on autopsy is going to show that you took Amphetamines, whether you like it or not, could lead me to the same conclusion?


Interesting. Again, you think you were a better person, gaining more and more skill off your meds....but want them back...As for the pill doing all the work so that you didn't need to, I can tell you for certain that my meds are necessary...HOWEVER, they don't do anything to make me a better, more skillful, more insightful, learned person. Same is true for anyone else here. Any progress we make is because we DON'T rely on meds to "do the work." Do you understand that at all? I'm almost wondering if you really AREN'T ADHD because I find your ideology so impossible to believe coming from someone who has dealt with the utter anguish of this.

If no one relies on the meds, then why take them? So many posts on this forum state "I have just started taking **insert stimulant** and I feel so normal". What is normal???????? How would an ADD'er "know" what normal is when normal has never been experienced? LOL*** No ADD'er would know the difference between normal and high. Including MYSELF! And find it grossly unfair to accuse anyone of not being ADHD because they don't take meds. One can't get much more anguish than being beaten to a pulp for not being NORMAL as a kid! Been there, done that. I am finding your statements in total favor of stimulants to be slightly illogical. Am I totally against them? No. Especially for children to get them through school while at the same time they receive behavior therapy. Then it's time to come off the walking stick, and try it alone. That is ONLY my opinion.


If you thought that for real, you wouldn't want your meds back. Period on that score. As for the question of being powerless within oneself to make change....I could give you a spiel that would blow your hair back on that one. I could tell you of people here who have overcome more difficulty because ot the POWER WITHIN THEM than you would clearly be able to comprehend. Personally, I don't cower to obstacles. Not before meds, not after. And while your comments might be funny to me, I haven't struggled with near the amount of wrongdoing and injustice due to my ADHD as many here. You words have the potential to hurt those who have dealt with the stereotypical, judgmental, abusive behavior that sometimes, make that A LOT of the time, comes with ADHD.

If you could tell such spiels, then why not look around the forum and give the same tokens to those of us that have done it, succeeded, and continue our lives in an appropriate manner, all without the aid of meds? Or don't they count?

Just my opinion, but a post such as yours would not have come from someone who had actually had any real ADHD realization or enlightenment. Honestly, it's much more akin to the spouting done by those who have no idea what ADHD is in the first place. Do you think, btw, that my mom could "cure" her problem using your theory? Please do tell if so. I would LOVE to know the secret.

Your Mom has a physical disease that is horrific. ADHD up against what your mom suffers is a moot discussion. I won't even go there. My heart goes out to your Mom.

My Doc isn't like that at all.....must be that I'm just so charming to talk to. And guess what? If you've got strep throat and don't take antibiotics that'll come back too. If you've got high blood pressure and don't take your meds, it comes back. If you've got cancer and don't take the chemo or radiation....it AIN'T going away on it's own....If you had any such condition what would you do then?

Strep throat means a 10 day course of anti-biotics. High Blood Pressure would depend on the cause, and meds are NOT always the answer. Cancer? Yes, treatment, but not long term.


WOW!!!!!!! I agree with you on something. Good physical fitness is an important part of a healthy lifestyle. Let's see.....Monogamy is a lifestyle, too. There are lots of different lifestyles. ADHD isn't a lifestyle. And if people actually read this entire post of yours, THAT"S WHY IT"S GOING TO BE "unpopular."

I never realized that this forum is a popularity contest. My bad. But then again, I never cared for "popular". Mee made some valid points. You flamed him good and proper for an "opinion", and one that is worthy of us ALL looking at.

I shall now sit in the "unpopular corner". I kind of prefer it. :D

You do not find people here who have been on these drugs for 10 or 20 years there is a reason for that . Again I am not here to upset anyone ... I just wanted to tell you about the other side .... the side the Dr 's probably do not tell you . RhapsodyInBlue I know you know what I am talking about firsthand becuase of your husband and I am happy you have him back .

This is my first post, so hi to everyone. I am 37 and 20 years ago I dr. prescribed me ritalin but I gave it to my friends for recreational use. Now 20 years later I've been diagnosed recently with ADD and this past week have been on 10mg at day of ritalin. One of the things that really strikes me is that now I sleep like I have never slept for 10 years. Even on ritalin I take 15 minutes naps in which I'm in another planet. Even when I wake up in the morning, after an 8 hour sleep, I have to come back from a very deep sleep. I would like to know if anyone has similar experience...thanks!!

Mee, I second all Free said, and I might add, you need to study neurotransmitters and the way the brain works from non-biased sources. You really dont have a good picture of what ADD is biochemically.

Mee, I second all Free said, and I might add, you need to study neurotransmitters and the way the brain works from non-biased sources. You really dont have a good picture of what ADD is biochemically.

__________________


Please be more specific

Most of use ADDers - especially those who have been diagnosed later in life - bristle at the words "if he/she would/could only work harder" since we've been hearing it most of our lives, so to hear it from someone who claims to be "one of us", especially when put in the form of "you should quit taking pills and just work harder", is galling to say the least!

. . . and I've got the report cards to prove it!

Ummmmm, then why is stimulant medication banned from Olympics? Answer=because it enhances performance. Stimulants also help people in many professions. Truck Drivers ues them, performers use them, and yes, even adolescents use them to get A's in their exams. Non ADD Kids. It's all over the web on forums, just like this one. Are they not to be believed? I read of one where a 20 yr old said he was about to fake ADHD to get Adderall.


Vik, do you remember that thread about the radio station who was putting false propaganda that ADHD is fake because that kid was NON ADD and givin stimulants..there is a medical reason people with ADHD take meds hon..

help ppl in professions...it's called Coffee.....Kids in school non ADD on stims to get an A on a test.....Kids who can concentrate and can dont have the same problems as ADD kids now need stimulants to pass the same test :confused:




[color=navy]If no one relies on the meds, then why take them? So many posts on this forum state "I have just started taking **insert stimulant** and I feel so normal". What is normal???????? How would an ADD'er "know" what normal is when normal has never been experienced?

Normal- conforming with or constituting a norm or standard or level or type or social norm; not abnormal. Since ADHD people are criticized and being told what is accepted in society to function AKA BE LIKE THEM..Maybe that is how some of us know....or maybe another thing....normal as feel the same way as before...not better or worse but the same as before...we feel normal meaning we feel the same.


LOL*** No ADD'er would know the difference between normal and high.


Hmmmm....I been both..trust me there is a big diff:p

If you could tell such spiels, then why not look around the forum and give the same tokens to those of us that have done it, succeeded, and continue our lives in an appropriate manner, all without the aid of meds? Or don't they count?


I do from the bottom of my heart congradulate all those who can deal with their ADD without medication....I myself wish I could, but been there...done that..and unfortunatley I found out I can't because I happen to have a plethora of chemical embalances in the nogin and not being able to notice things and my rash impulsive behavior is exactly what landed me on disability today, and the way I was when I was off meds that same inabilty to see things clearly almost cost me my life.(U know what I am talkin about Vik)...So there ya have it...some people can live without medication and thern there are some of us who can't ..That's just the way it is


Your Mom has a physical disease that is horrific. ADHD up against what your mom suffers is a moot discussion. .

Both conditions are incurable, hard to deal with and mostly need medication to control, both medical...the degree of severity does not change significance....how is that moot, sweetie?


I never realized that this forum is a popularity contest. My bad. But then again, I never cared for "popular". Mee made some valid points. You flamed him good and proper for an "opinion", and one that is worthy of us ALL looking at.

I shall now sit in the "unpopular corner". I kind of prefer it. :D

How about this Vik, babay, Mee made some points..then Free made her points...You made your point....and now I have made mine....both two sides of the story and we each had our say...that is what a forum is for is it no? We all have our different opinions and I know the guidelines say that each opinion deserves respect, but come on...we're adults..respect for others should be a given. Nothing to do with popularity..it has to do with speaking our minds. Hugs Shugga!

Ummmmm, then why is stimulant medication banned from Olympics? Answer=because it enhances performance. Stimulants also help people in many professions. Truck Drivers ues them, performers use them, and yes, even adolescents use them to get A's in their exams. Non ADD Kids. It's all over the web on forums, just like this one. Are they not to be believed? I read of one where a 20 yr old said he was about to fake ADHD to get Adderall.

You need to reread paragraph one. These people are abusing a drug, the dosage of which is impossible to determine, the purity of which is impossible to determine, and furthermore, they are breaking the law. Someone taking ADHD medication PROPERLY is hardly trying to ENHANCE their sprint time so as to win a gold medal. The more likely scenario goes like this.....they take their meds so as to keep a job, so as to pay their bills, so as to hopefully save some extra money, so as to even BUY a ticket to WATCH the track and field event at the Olympics (personally, though I am a runner myself, I would much prefer to jet off to a musical event......but I'm trying desperately to hang with you here)......all of the above depends of course, on whether they can keep their *** in gear long enough, not lose their train of thought, and actually REMEMBER to go catch the stinkin' PLANE that would deliver them to the Olympics in the first place. Basically, you proved my first point. Thank you.


So that's why my daughter took all those Amphetamines and got straight A's? And NO ONE could have been more relaxed on them than she was. Hyper? Yes. But no more than anyone I have observed on here. No, she did not have ADHD.

Given your stance, I don't see why you put her on the horrible drugs to begin with. Surely that was a typo. And frankly, my other thought is that you should really give your daughter more credit. Ever think maybe she's just a smart kid? For her sake I hope you didn't mention you thought it was the chemical which deserved the kudos. The child needs the kudos a heck of a lot more.

Medline Plus Medical Dictionary in concert with Merrriam-Webster.....

HyperActive-more active than is usual or desirable.
Relaxed-to slacken or make less tense or rigid, to relieve from nervous tension.
Reread YOUR paragrah here. Doesn't make logical sense.


Ok Free, you allude to Mee as having a drug problem. Perhaps your "fighting" for the use of these drugs, which on autopsy is going to show that you took Amphetamines, whether you like it or not, could lead me to the same conclusion?

I hope my autopsy DOES show that I was on "these drugs." The only way it won't is if I do something as stupid as STOP TAKING THEM!!! As for my "fighting" for the use of "these drugs" you need to reassess your comprehension here. For people who do not have ADHD, I am clearly on the record in MANY places as being against it.....as far as "fighting" for the AVAILABILITY of stimulant medication for those who suffer the debilitating effects that can arise from ADHD, and advocatiing for a better understanding of the condition itself.....YOU'RE DAMN STRAIGHT I DO, and by the way, I'M PROUD OF THAT. You want to think I have a drug problem? Well, OK....so do the unenlightened people who actually believe that ADHD is but the latest fad disease for adults who have nothing better to do.


If no one relies on the meds, then why take them? So many posts on this forum state "I have just started taking **insert stimulant** and I feel so normal". What is normal???????? How would an ADD'er "know" what normal is when normal has never been experienced? LOL*** No ADD'er would know the difference between normal and high. Including MYSELF! And find it grossly unfair to accuse anyone of not being ADHD because they don't take meds. One can't get much more anguish than being beaten to a pulp for not being NORMAL as a kid! Been there, done that. I am finding your statements in total favor of stimulants to be slightly illogical. Am I totally against them? No. Especially for children to get them through school while at the same time they receive behavior therapy. Then it's time to come off the walking stick, and try it alone. That is ONLY my opinion.

Normal is when you can function at a level that allows you to do the tasks required on a daily basis. If you find that illogical so be it. I never once "accused" anyone of not being ADHD because they don't take meds. I happen to KNOW people in just that situation...people who are suffering tremendously for the most part, because they NEED meds and therapy and cant afford EITHER.


If you could tell such spiels, then why not look around the forum and give the same tokens to those of us that have done it, succeeded, and continue our lives in an appropriate manner, all without the aid of meds? Or don't they count?

I never said anyone didn't count. Again, reread. I have no interest in whether you manage your ADHD without meds or not. If someone can, great. HOWEVER, if someone can't.......it doesn't mean they are headed down the road to drug addiction or are somehow weaker and less willing to "work." You've written more posts that flat-out startle me in terms of the quite obvious Attack MO, that I sometimes have wondered if you forgot this was not an anti-ADHD forum. You think your life is appropriate...Well that's a good thing. It's your life. I know my life is appropriate. Whatever the hell that really refers to.

Your Mom has a physical disease that is horrific. ADHD up against what your mom suffers is a moot discussion. I won't even go there. My heart goes out to your Mom.

My mother does have a horrible condition. However, though you are certainly the last person I would discuss her with, it is relevant in terms of the fact that she has dealt with the very skepticism ADHDers have faced, even in dealing with an ACCEPTABLE disease. People in this forum have been made to feel so much guilt over the course of YEARS of ignorance that it pains my every cell to see posts such as yours that, if seen by someone who didn't know better than to research or question it, would find yet one more reason to consider themselves a failure. My mother, by the way, a very learned woman, has a deep understanding of her daughter's ADHD and frankly, if I showed her the posts here, would likely give you an earful herself. She may have MS, but she's spuky as heck.


Strep throat means a 10 day course of anti-biotics. High Blood Pressure would depend on the cause, and meds are NOT always the answer. Cancer? Yes, treatment, but not long term.

Facts are facts. If you have a condition that requires medication and you do not take the medication, the condition will return. My mother, btw, had cancer too. Personally, I found the 6 month time period during which they had to poison her body in order to heal her to be quite long-term, thank you. My uncle has been on high bp medicine for years, so as to keep from stroking out before his grandchild learns to know him. Strep throat....my son once took antibiotics for ten days. Came back. 10 more. Came back. IV antibiotics. Came back. Another round.....finally gone. Seemed like a hell of a lot longer than ten days to me..oh wait, that's because it WAS. Felt like an eternity. Should I mention a friend I had with a simple case of mono....did the treatment. Came back. More treatment. Found dead in her bed one morning. No complicating factors. The 10 day antibiotic theory doesn't fly so well around here. Truth of the matter is that IF a person has something that REQUIRES medicinal treatment, the course of which you cannot definitively predict ahead of time, it darn sure isn't going to go away on it's own barring Providential intervention, which I happen to believe in. However, IF a person chooses and can deal with NOT GOING with medicinal treatment....go for it.

I never realized that this forum is a popularity contest. My bad. But then again, I never cared for "popular". Mee made some valid points. You flamed him good and proper for an "opinion", and one that is worthy of us ALL looking at.

Reread. MEE brought up the popular term. I didn't flame him at all. I READ his post because I DO think people can differ in opinion. I'm a journalist. I deal with people whose ideology I disagree with on a daily basis. I responded to MEE in a perfectly reasonable way. That you viewed it through a lens darkened with negativity is not something I find particularly surprising. I think I mentioned, I've read your replies to others. And as for popularity...it's a funny thing. I've never once sought it in my life. I spent too much time thinking I could change the world. I still do. And guess what, I'm now quite the popular chick around these parts. Just ask the beaten women, the homeless families, the impoverished elderly, AIDS victims......all of whom I've worked with and/or written about. Just ask the local politicians and business men who don't want to get TOO CLOSE to that stuff, but hey, would sure like to benefit from it somehow if possible. If I cared about popularity my first post on this forum would have been who I'm related to and who I know. People are affected by things such as that ADHD or not. Therefore, that's all it would have taken. I choose the harder route......because I don't give a **** about popularity. I give a **** about being real.

I shall now sit in the "unpopular corner". I kind of prefer it. :D

And I shall remain in my little spot....perfectly comfortable in the knowledge that when I do indeed leave this world, Amphetamine-user tag hung on my toe....I will have made a large enough difference in the lives of hurting people, regardless of the guts I had to muster in the effort, to know beyond a doubt I hadn't wasted all my time.

Ok, now, you're going to have to forgive me but I am actually not even going to edit this post for spelling/grammatical errors. Doesn't seem worth the effort.

Although I am not currently on my medications, of my own choice and the fact that I have other conditions to worry about, I think that people have a right to use medications (or not) to aid them in functioning in their daily lives.

I was often accused of being on drugs when Iwas younger because I didn't act like 'normal' kids. One moment I would be bouncing around the classroom, the next suddenly fall asleep because I was not stimulated enough. My ADD affected my moods, my social skills, as well as my learning. I often wonder how it would have been if my father would have let me be on Adderall when I was younger ... but that is neither here nor there.

In my adult life, when I was on adderall, I wouldn't say I felt normal. For me it was more like ... peace. For ONCE in my life, my mind and my body was at peace. My thoughts were not flying by me at 2,000 mph, they were finally going about 75 mph. I could actually focus on a task and finish it without my thoughts taking over (random and odd ones) and leaving the task in the waste basket - never to be seen from again.

To each there own. Everyone has different things that work for them, that might not work with someone of the same gender and age with the same diagnoses.

so ... I guess what I am saying (sorry for rambling) is that everyone has their *own* way of dealing with AD/HD.

Thanks for your time.
That is my 2 cents .... for what it is worth.

- Ane -

Vik, do you remember that thread about the radio station who was putting false propaganda that ADHD is fake because that kid was NON ADD and givin stimulants..

http://www.worldtalkradio.com/category.asp?cid=181

She is not saying ADHD does not exist she is just exposing the over-diagnosis of ADHD and the over use of drugs for this condition ( especially when children are concerned } . If you listen to the Show Segments in Exposing the Fraud of ADD you will see she has people who represent both sides to just about every topic . Please listen to her show before you put her down . After you listen to the different segment please come back here and give us your review again take the time to listen to her it will surprise you .


here is another page .......
http://www.anniearmenlive.org/psychiatric_drugs.htm

[/color][/font]

You need to reread paragraph one. These people are abusing a drug, the dosage of which is impossible to determine, the purity of which is impossible to determine, and furthermore, they are breaking the law. Someone taking ADHD medication PROPERLY is hardly trying to ENHANCE their sprint time so as to win a gold medal. The more likely scenario goes like this.....they take their meds so as to keep a job, so as to pay their bills, so as to hopefully save some extra money, so as to even BUY a ticket to WATCH the track and field event at the Olympics (personally, though I am a runner myself, I would much prefer to jet off to a musical event......but I'm trying desperately to hang with you here)......all of the above depends of course, on whether they can keep their *** in gear long enough, not lose their train of thought, and actually REMEMBER to go catch the stinkin' PLANE that would deliver them to the Olympics in the first place. Basically, you proved my first point. Thank you.




Given your stance, I don't see why you put her on the horrible drugs to begin with. Surely that was a typo. And frankly, my other thought is that you should really give your daughter more credit. Ever think maybe she's just a smart kid? For her sake I hope you didn't mention you thought it was the chemical which deserved the kudos. The child needs the kudos a heck of a lot more.

Medline Plus Medical Dictionary in concert with Merrriam-Webster.....

HyperActive-more active than is usual or desirable.
Relaxed-to slacken or make less tense or rigid, to relieve from nervous tension.
Reread YOUR paragrah here. Doesn't make logical sense.




I hope my autopsy DOES show that I was on "these drugs." The only way it won't is if I do something as stupid as STOP TAKING THEM!!! As for my "fighting" for the use of "these drugs" you need to reassess your comprehension here. For people who do not have ADHD, I am clearly on the record in MANY places as being against it.....as far as "fighting" for the AVAILABILITY of stimulant medication for those who suffer the debilitating effects that can arise from ADHD, and advocatiing for a better understanding of the condition itself.....YOU'RE DAMN STRAIGHT I DO, and by the way, I'M PROUD OF THAT. You want to think I have a drug problem? Well, OK....so do the unenlightened people who actually believe that ADHD is but the latest fad disease for adults who have nothing better to do.




Normal is when you can function at a level that allows you to do the tasks required on a daily basis. If you find that illogical so be it. I never once "accused" anyone of not being ADHD because they don't take meds. I happen to KNOW people in just that situation...people who are suffering tremendously for the most part, because they NEED meds and therapy and cant afford EITHER.




I never said anyone didn't count. Again, reread. I have no interest in whether you manage your ADHD without meds or not. If someone can, great. HOWEVER, if someone can't.......it doesn't mean they are headed down the road to drug addiction or are somehow weaker and less willing to "work." You've written more posts that flat-out startle me in terms of the quite obvious Attack MO, that I sometimes have wondered if you forgot this was not an anti-ADHD forum. You think your life is appropriate...Well that's a good thing. It's your life. I know my life is appropriate. Whatever the hell that really refers to.



My mother does have a horrible condition. However, though you are certainly the last person I would discuss her with, it is relevant in terms of the fact that she has dealt with the very skepticism ADHDers have faced, even in dealing with an ACCEPTABLE disease. People in this forum have been made to feel so much guilt over the course of YEARS of ignorance that it pains my every cell to see posts such as yours that, if seen by someone who didn't know better than to research or question it, would find yet one more reason to consider themselves a failure. My mother, by the way, a very learned woman, has a deep understanding of her daughter's ADHD and frankly, if I showed her the posts here, would likely give you an earful herself. She may have MS, but she's spuky as heck.




Facts are facts. If you have a condition that requires medication and you do not take the medication, the condition will return. My mother, btw, had cancer too. Personally, I found the 6 month time period during which they had to poison her body in order to heal her to be quite long-term, thank you. My uncle has been on high bp medicine for years, so as to keep from stroking out before his grandchild learns to know him. Strep throat....my son once took antibiotics for ten days. Came back. 10 more. Came back. IV antibiotics. Came back. Another round.....finally gone. Seemed like a hell of a lot longer than ten days to me..oh wait, that's because it WAS. Felt like an eternity. Should I mention a friend I had with a simple case of mono....did the treatment. Came back. More treatment. Found dead in her bed one morning. No complicating factors. The 10 day antibiotic theory doesn't fly so well around here. Truth of the matter is that IF a person has something that REQUIRES medicinal treatment, the course of which you cannot definitively predict ahead of time, it darn sure isn't going to go away on it's own barring Providential intervention, which I happen to believe in. However, IF a person chooses and can deal with NOT GOING with medicinal treatment....go for it.



Reread. MEE brought up the popular term. I didn't flame him at all. I READ his post because I DO think people can differ in opinion. I'm a journalist. I deal with people whose ideology I disagree with on a daily basis. I responded to MEE in a perfectly reasonable way. That you viewed it through a lens darkened with negativity is not something I find particularly surprising. I think I mentioned, I've read your replies to others. And as for popularity...it's a funny thing. I've never once sought it in my life. I spent too much time thinking I could change the world. I still do. And guess what, I'm now quite the popular chick around these parts. Just ask the beaten women, the homeless families, the impoverished elderly, AIDS victims......all of whom I've worked with and/or written about. Just ask the local politicians and business men who don't want to get TOO CLOSE to that stuff, but hey, would sure like to benefit from it somehow if possible. If I cared about popularity my first post on this forum would have been who I'm related to and who I know. People are affected by things such as that ADHD or not. Therefore, that's all it would have taken. I choose the harder route......because I don't give a **** about popularity. I give a **** about being real.



And I shall remain in my little spot....perfectly comfortable in the knowledge that when I do indeed leave this world, Amphetamine-user tag hung on my toe....I will have made a large enough difference in the lives of hurting people, regardless of the guts I had to muster in the effort, to know beyond a doubt I hadn't wasted all my time.

Ok, now, you're going to have to forgive me but I am actually not even going to edit this post for spelling/grammatical errors. Doesn't seem worth the effort.
http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14656

I apologize, but due to the nature of the topic in the above thread, I cannot answer to all of your post at this time.

[QUOTE}Given your stance, I don't see why you put her on the horrible drugs to begin with. Surely that was a typo. And frankly, my other thought is that you should really give your daughter more credit. Ever think maybe she's just a smart kid? For her sake I hope you didn't mention you thought it was the chemical which deserved the kudos. The child needs the kudos a heck of a lot more. [QUOTE/]


Your conclusion that Viktoria put her non-ADHD daughter on amphetamines, is grossly offesive to both Viktoria and myself.:mad: :mad: :mad:

Her teenage daughter obtained the amphetamines illegally in the schoolyard.
Re-read Viktoria.s original post!!!

Where does Viktoria ever state, that the drugs were obtained and supplied to her daughter by Viktoria herself?

My wife was not even in the same country at the time these events took place.

So is this how Adderall effects your logical thinking process skills, at the dosage your on?

So is this how Adderall effects your logical thinking process skills, at the dosage your on?


It is not just Adderall it is sometimes a cocktail of many drugs ... coffee and stimulants all day ... an anti depressant and maybe a benzo thrown in to take the edge off ... all in the name of medicine ... and the real danger is the logical thinking process goes south and your whole personality starts to change .

I think that most people that are here are really smart and responsible about the way they are using these drugs for their ADD but there are many who or on the road to hell on earth ( if they are not there already ) with the way they are using these drugs . I do not think people want to hear stories about the dark side of where this stuff can take you but I wish I had read it before I got in trouble and that is why I started this a a few other threads .
I feel so bad I started a thread that ultimately hurt someone as loving and gifted as your wife .

AM,

A simple statement to that effect would have clarified the situation. Be angry if you like but I merely quoted Vik, as did at least one other person. My point has more than been made on this thread, so has yours, so has hers......

To return to the original point of discussion, I do wish that I could manage without medication. What drugs like Adderall do to increase free radical production is one of the reasons I feel this way. I know Adderall will make me old before my time.

But I cannot ignore the importance of the quality of that time. I simply cannot make a living without the help of Adderall. On Friday and Saturday, I took a drug holiday and it took me 2 hours to pay one simple bill. Locating paper, stamps, the bill, the payment arrangements, and the note I had written to myself about how to correctly pay the bill was a 2 hour hassle. As a result, I was frustrated, depressed, and beating up on myself.

I tried Ritalin some years back and it was not helpful. Adderall makes a tremendous difference in my mental functioning. If I can spend less time doing things like paying bills, I can spend more time talking to my friends, reading a good book, or enjoying a hobby. I can be more productive with my work in a helping profession and thus I am more useful to others.

We each of us have to weigh individually what our options are. I am currently choosing medication as one of the stategies among many that I use to cope with ADD. I may change my mind at a later time. For instance, I took the med holiday because I wanted to get some more creative type stuff done. This succeeded very well. I thought up a great name for a nonprofit I am involved in establishing. I hope the name I thought of will help garner funding for the nonprofit which will establish a drop in center for the mentally ill.

Drop in centers across the nation have become a motivating political force for improving treatment and rights and recovery options for people with mental illness. One of the growing philosophies is to make them consumer-driven -- which means that people with mental illnesses will be responsible for all operations and decision making.

Isn't the power to effectively decide for ourselves the medical and nonmedical treatment we will use important for us all? Mentally ill or not.

That was a good post Carol, Mee what I meant about you needing to study the brain can be mainly attributed to one basic line "the whole idea that we need the drug any more than a non-add'r, to accomplish the same thing. This tells me you do not understand the deficency that ADD'ers have of chemicals dopamine, norenephrine and sometimes to some degree seratonin. A non- diabetic would also sometimes get his insulin up with the addition of more insulin, but that doesnt negate the importance of the diagnosed diabetic NEEDING insulin. I do not understand why people let the horrible abuse of these drugs lessen the importance or need of some who need them to function. You seem to be of a belief that even ADD'ers "use" these to enhance performance, not to function at a healthy level. Do you know the damage that untreated ADD has the potential to cause? Being diagnosed at 40, I do. Years of low self esteem, missed opportunities and even damaged relationships. I fear to know even crimes that have been committed or abuse that has happened due to the frustration of untreated ADD. Long term stress also has serious health concequences. Also, you say both ADD'ers and non do better on tests, housework ect. This makes them equal?? How simplistic! I have been "energized" on steroids (prescribed) and excess caffeine, and got a LOT done, but at a great cost, extreme letdown fatigue, soreness and more. Its not the same. I really do respect your thoughts, but you must realize on many come here as a place of safety, away from judgement. So you need to be prepared for the onslaught of "opinions" You might enjoy the books "driven to distraction, and the newest one, delivered from distraction. They are very up to date.

moonlily

I was just making the point that amphetamines enhance performance and give ADD and non ADD people for the most part the same effects . And I do agree ADD people may need those enhanced performance abilities more than non ADDers . I was just lead to believe by the medical community that the cure to my ADD was in a pill .... and when those pills started to lose their magical power and when I developed tolerance to those pills thats when the trouble began . In the beginning what I call the honeymoon stages it was great and I thought I had found the cure to my ADHD . Years later when I had to increases the dosages and change the drug over and over I realized that the pills did not cure my ADHD and these pills were causing problems much worse than the original ADHD had caused and at that point the pills were not even helping the ADHD that much .

After many years on high doses of stimulant for my ADHD I started to develop problems from the side effects .... Depression ... anxiety all things I never had before .... but now had becuase of years of hight doses of stimulants that was for my ADHD . Then the doctors said they could fix those problems also with a pill ... antidepressant for the depression ........ benzodiazepines for the anxioty and so on . Soon I developed a tolerence to these drugs and those needed drugs to be increased . I went from a drug free guy who had ADHD to someone who was on 3 different types of dangerous drugs with a personality that was turning me into a person who now was completely dependent on narcotics . I am happy for those who can take these drugs and it does not turn ugly but for me it did . And as I read the posts here I can see many who are headed to the same hell I was in and some who are already there but are just in denial , I feel for them and just thought I could help by telling people where these drugs took me . moonlily you say many come here as a place of safety. I can see how my experiences may disturb them but there are some who may read my words and relate to them and it just may be of some help to them .

moonlily
I was just lead to believe by the medical community that the cure to my ADD was in a pill .... and when those pills started to lose their magical power and when I developed tolerance to those pills thats when the trouble began .

I was told the same thing about antidepressant medication in the form of SSRIs. I am not saying medication cannot turn on you. It can and it often does. I think all of us who take drugs for brain "disorders" are at risk of being led down the garden path by the medical and pharmaceutical business. It is sad, but we must become very savvy consumers if we want to survive in this jungle.

In the beginning what I call the honeymoon stages it was great and I thought I had found the cure to my ADHD .
Part of this is psychological. Harvard professors are now studying this very human trait. They have decided that if you win the lottery this year and experience the attendant euphoria that by next year you will be back to your normal mood. Brutal truth: There is no magic pill, idea, belief, event, gift etc.

Years later when I had to increases the dosages and change the drug over and over I realized that the pills did not cure my ADHD and these pills were causing problems much worse than the original ADHD had caused and at that point the pills were not even helping the ADHD that much .
The wear off effect of many drugs is well-established. It is what can make treating brain disorders so very frustrating both for doctors and patients. We would all be better off if we were told this in the first place. We would not feel such a sense of betrayal.

After many years on high doses of stimulant for my ADHD I started to develop problems from the side effects .... Depression ... anxiety all things I never had before .... but now had becuase of years of hight doses of stimulants that was for my ADHD .
What evidence do you have that the depression was related to stimulant use? Did you have no other changes in your life or your health during that time?

Then the doctors said they could fix those problems also with a pill ... antidepressant for the depression ........ benzodiazepines for the anxioty and so on . Soon I developed a tolerence to these drugs and those needed drugs to be increased .
I am sad for you. I had frustrating experiences with antidepressants as well. There has long been evidence that benzos are addictive. SSRIs are now being scrutinized for causing suicidal ideation in children as well as adults.

I went from a drug free guy who had ADHD to someone who was on 3 different types of dangerous drugs with a personality that was turning me into a person who now was completely dependent on narcotics . I am happy for those who can take these drugs and it does not turn ugly but for me it did .
You certainly have my sympathy.

And as I read the posts here I can see many who are headed to the same hell I was in and some who are already there but are just in denial , I feel for them and just thought I could help by telling people where these drugs took me .
Here is where you lose my sympathy. It is easy to charge that people in this thread are in denial and of course not name those people because it wouldn't be nice. :) But it is a cheap charge. I believe you have to know someone well to make that sort of blanket statement. I find it offensive not only because it is without validity but because it does not allow people to defend themselves.

Otherwise, it is always useful to hear the personal experiences of others. Forewarned is forearmed. Can you honestly say that you know what each an every person posting here has experienced with their particular problems with ADD/ADHD that led them to make these difficult medication choices? Would you be wanting to make our choices for us?

I thought long and carefully and did some research before trying Adderall. I dealt with ADD for 55 years before making my choice. I am willing to live with my choice.

I thought long and carefully and did some research before trying Adderall. I dealt with ADD for 55 years before making my choice. I am willing to live with my choice. Coral, your comment touched a chord in me. Ten years ago, I read the new book, _Driven To Distraction_, for a friend, and discovered myself in the pages. I spent another year researching ADHD before I even approached my doctor for a referral. At 44, I was reluctant to approach the medical profession for something mostly diagnosed in children.

Thanks for the thoughtful post.
L.

Coral, your comment touched a chord in me. Ten years ago, I read the new book, _Driven To Distraction_, for a friend, and discovered myself in the pages. I spent another year researching ADHD before I even approached my doctor for a referral. At 44, I was reluctant to approach the medical profession for something mostly diagnosed in children.

Thanks for the thoughtful post.
L.
You're welcome L. I am hopeful the Adderall will make a difference in my life for things like productivity and regular employment. People sometimes forget how brutally the world can punish those of us who struggle with ADD/ADHD. There are no rewards for good intentions.

Choral Rhedd,

Brutal truth: There is no magic pill, idea, belief, event, gift etc.

Would that life were at times so simple....But if it were, wherein would lie the joy of overcoming an obstacle or challenge that at one point seemed insurmountable? Brutal at times? Gosh, yes. But it also happens to be absolutely, undeniably true. Well said, Choral.

It is easy to charge that people in this thread are in denial and of course not name those people because it wouldn't be nice. :) But it is a cheap charge. I believe you have to know someone well to make that sort of blanket statement. I find it offensive not only because it is without validity but because it does not allow people to defend themselves.
Aside from doing Valentine's cards for the kids classes tomorrow, this smiley face has been the best part of my day. Thank you.

I thought long and carefully and did some research before trying Adderall. I dealt with ADD for 55 years before making my choice. I am willing to live with my choice.
You've got me beat in years, but we're on par in terms of the research and deep, gut-wrenching analysis of the mind and soul before journeying down the road called Adderall. Unquestionably, this decision was one of the most difficult of my life. We're two of a kind there. I can live with my choice, too.

The last sentence of your last post needs to be added to the favorite famous quotations thread:

THERE ARE NO REWARDS FOR GOOD INTENTIONS........

The number of people here who can relate to that statement is likely mind-boggling.

The day ends better than it began for another human being because of you. I appreciate it more than you know.

Free

it is always useful to hear the personal experiences of others

it is but ... but it is obvious that many here do not want to hear anything but good things about the drugs they take

Hey Mee,
What do you do for laughs? :D
L.

What do you do for laughs?

I am not sure what you mean or how it applies to my last post please explain :D

Brutal truth: There is no magic pill, idea, belief, event, gift etc.

U just said a mouthful!!!!!!!:D

Stimulant or Nonstimulant...we will always have ADD...For me(n I have said this before) stimulant may help me focus and in a way ALMOST takes the person I could be underneath the cloud of ADHD & Bipolar and JOLTS that person out of the cloud, it may do that...but all I have done and accomplished in my life....the meds did not do it, I DID!

BUTT<~~~~:p for those like me..that is NOT the only reason I need meds...there are more things going in those DARK CLOUD that is my brain that make me irrational, impulsive, and emotional...so much to the point that it can be harmful or when I screw up ENORMOUSLY(SP) it not only effects me but also effects people I love making it harder for all of us(aka wrecking car & mom struggling for 2 years cause I could not work) I WILL NOT let that happen again...and if the meds helps me to think clearer n think things through....If it ain't broke, don't fix it ;)

Choral Rhedd,

[/color][/b]


You've got me beat in years, but we're on par in terms of the research and deep, gut-wrenching analysis of the mind and soul before journeying down the road called Adderall. Unquestionably, this decision was one of the most difficult of my life. We're two of a kind there. I can live with my choice, too.

The last sentence of your last post needs to be added to the favorite famous quotations thread:

THERE ARE NO REWARDS FOR GOOD INTENTIONS........

The number of people here who can relate to that statement is likely mind-boggling.

The day ends better than it began for another human being because of you. I appreciate it more than you know.

Free




Free, when we hear the difficult stories of others -- or at least when I do -- my heart aches. I too have known the pain of loss and childhood abuse. But ultimately, we must all be true to our own conception of what amounts to an honest appraisal. I can only speak my own truth. Others will speak theirs. We may not find agreement, but somewhere in the process, we find ourselves.

Free, when we hear the difficult stories of others -- or at least when I do -- my heart aches. I too have known the pain of loss and childhood abuse. But ultimately, we must all be true to our own conception of what amounts to an honest appraisal. I can only speak my own truth. Others will speak theirs. We may not find agreement, but somewhere in the process, we find ourselves.
I thought that was very well said. Thank you for sharing that

Draga I am happy the meds work so well for you ... I see you have over 11,000 post here , so I take it that you have been here a long time ... have you ever seen people here who's med have caused them major health problems like what was happening to me .

it is but ... but it is obvious that many here do not want to hear anything but good things about the drugs they take
What's obvious is that you fail to acknowledge the fact that you aren't dealing with a bunch of unenlightened idiots who HAVEN'T THOROUGHLY RESEARCHED this issue already. Furthermore, do you really think you've raised questions that any of us have never heard before? I know the potential problems with the medication I'm on. The trade off has been more than worth it. If that fails to be the case at some point, I will step back, reassess, and change course if need be. It's known as evolution of the mind.....

IMNAPL.......you just made me laugh. The green guy is one of my favorites.:D

Over and out on this one guys. My tendancy to be bored into distraction has been sorely tested today.

I know the potential problems with the medication I'm on. May I ask what are all the medications you take and what are the doses .

Furthermore, do you really think you've raised questions that any of us have never heard before?

yes I do ... I think there are many new people who come to these boards looking for peoples experiences with these drugs and have very little information on them ... Just today someone PM'ed me and said they had been put on a large dose of a benzodiazepines 4 times a day and was not told by their Dr that it was addicting .

After reading through all of this I have only two things to add. I was unmedicated through high school and college. I worked harder than anyone, got less than satisfying results, and constantly berated myself that I could do better. Did I get better? No, I got depressed, suicidal, and felt totally worthless. When I was faced with the only woman I ever loved leaving me, I returned to medication. It took time to get dosages just right, but I will never go back to coping without them.

When the brain doesn't work right - sometimes "learning coping skills" isn't enough.

As for there not being any "long term users" here - think again. I've been medicated for nearly 24 of my 36 years on this planet. We're not the easiest to flush out because many of us have learned to avoid discussions of this nature. Why argue a point we've been unable to win for most of our lives?

Respectfully,
David Pershing

Thanks pershingd it is good to hear from someone who has a lot of time . I see from some of your other posts that you have been on the same amount of of medication for many many years . I kept finding that my tolerance kept going up and then the dosages were always needing to be increased . As I increased the dosages the crashes or the so called rebound just got out of control and the anxiety was just too much to take . You sound like a very lucky guy to be able to have found a drug and a dosage that you could stay with so long .. thanks again for your post .

Nope - went off because it was the "thing" to do at that age. Currently I take 20mg Ritalin SR twice a day and a 5mg booster in the afternoon if needed (late meetings, etc).

Went back on because my wife made me choose - Medications or divorce.

David

Draga I am happy the meds work so well for you ... I see you have over 11,000 post here , so I take it that you have been here a long time ... have you ever seen people here who's med have caused them major health problems like what was happening to me .

Actually been here 1 yr 2 months, I honestly have met a few, just was not the right meds for them....& Even myself...when I was on Strattera the Non-Stimulant, lord that did nothing for me and even made me ...welll...err why be gross and say it..so I'll put it this way, you would not want me to toss ya a cookie :eek:....But now on dexadrine I have not noticed anything medically wrong with me (unless u consider a popcorn butt a symptom internetaholic:p)
Sorry, I just am watching Blue Collar Comedy and I keepin with Loca theme:D

On serious note...could be either u are not on the right meds or dosage too high..that just theory...Not a doc so dont take me word for it....Have ya called ya Doc?

I'm new to this Forum, so please excuse me if I am butting in.

I did a great job dealing with my ADD for 36 years. When my dad passed away and three days later may wife and I had our third child and eight months later I lost my younger brother....I stepped outside of my "window of control".


I have never had a problem with motivation or getting work done. My problem has been with memory, being cranky at the end of the day, remaining focused after work, hyper-focusing in general and the inability to be “available” to the important people in my life...but I was able to develop techniques to manage my ADD. When all hell broke loose my ADD got magnified big time and the techniques that I developed throughout my life to deal with my ADD stopped working.



After three years of very reduced productivity and motivation, major memory issues, the inability to make simple choices, possible divorce and cranky as hell by the end of the day, I made the choice to use Adderall. I made this choice after much counseling and with the understanding that it will be a tool for me to use to get back within my "window of control".



The positive effects have been undeniable but I am very concerned about effects from long term use and this thread has been a big help.

Hope that made sense....:o

Thanks!

PS: For any of you thinking that Zoloft may have helped through an obviously trying period in my life...I tried it and it made my ADD much much worse.

I spent my hole entire life wanting to become someone. I'm not saying I haven't succeed but when I go back to my teenagehood and see a yound girl falling asleep on her desk, unable to undestand what everyone else found easy now I know I could acheive myself entirely if I only had help. I will never feel cheap about my medication cause it gave me my full brain back and the hability to be the women and the mother my children deserved.

Ummmm......No. Not true at all, actually. Someone on stimulant therapy who does not NEED stimulant therapy will not react the same way as an ADHDer on a prescribed med in proper dose.
That's a common misconception, free2bme. I think you're wrong. Show me the evidence please.

Show me the evidence please.

becuase this is a very common misconception

Yep, it is a misconception - but one that's quite ingrained, even doctors will sometimes use a person's reaction to stimulant meds as a diagnostic tool, but the literature I've read emphatically says that it's not an indicator. SOME ADHDers react differently to stimulants - slows them down or makes them sleepy/helps them sleep - but most react the same way.
Sometimes it appears like stimulants slow us down, but it's simply that we can stay still longer due to improved impulse control!
Cheers!

That's a common misconception, free2bme. I think you're wrong. Show me the evidence please.


becuase this is a very common misconception


Yep, it is a misconception - but one that's quite ingrained, even doctors will sometimes use a person's reaction to stimulant meds as a diagnostic tool, but the literature I've read emphatically says that it's not an indicator. SOME ADHDers react differently to stimulants - slows them down or makes them sleepy/helps them sleep - but most react the same way.
Sometimes it appears like stimulants slow us down, but it's simply that we can stay still longer due to improved impulse control!
Cheers!
See, this is what gets screwed up right here.

Quick teardown:

Three statements that attempt to establish by their construction the idea that this is a misconception,

offering no evidence to support that idea at all,

while challenging free2bme to show evidence in support of her claim that a normal and an ADDer will have substantially different reactions to stimulants.

Guys, what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

You can't challenge someone to support a statement with an unsupported statement. When you appeal to form, you're automatically constrained to the same form.

And we all know that. Ignoring it is bogus, and Greg, you should be ashamed. I know you know better.

(Feel free, anyone, to offer evidence establishing the claim that a popular misconception exists about different responses to stimulants in normals and ADDers. But I believe that would be a difficult task; we’re popular, and we've seen neither hide nor hair of any such misconception.)

(We have seen the idea that there is a difference talked up, but it’s not, to our knowledge, a misconception.)


Here’s some evidence from my personal bag:

Long, detailed conversations with our personal physician and other doctors about the effects of stimulants, including discussions about the well documented paradoxical effects that many ADDers experience.

(You're not denying that fact, right? But it establishes the essential truth of Free's statement, folks…)

Discussions also about the effects of drugs like Ritalin in people for whom it's prescribed to combat narcolepsy, and Kay's experience in long term care with exactly that.

Numerous discussions (as in, hundreds) about the perceived effects of stimulants with people that have been diagnosed as having/being AD/HD, people not diagnosed but likely to be were they to pursue it, and people that are not in the above categories at all, if you catch my drift.

Formal coursework about exactly this sort of thing, in particular Dr. Korn's two semester course on psychoactive drugs at Carnegie Mellon, and Kay's education as an RN.

All (or most, anyway) of this in pursuit of making sense of the underlying mechanisms, formal work going back to the late Sixties, some for undergraduate credit, a small part graduate coursework, and the rest formal research by the two of us.

What our personal physician said was exactly this:

A paradoxical effect is not a diagnostic tool. We were the first to bring it to his attention, but he immediately realized he had seen it for years. Increasingly, it is considered to be, in a small but significant way, confirming evidence that the diagnosis is correct, and stimulants are appropriate.

That doctor has moved on, and his replacement doesn't talk about it at all. But that doesn't change what we know personally to be true about the situation.


Then, there's this:

I believe the idea that a paradoxical effect is considered by anyone to be a diagnostic tool has now been established as a popular misconception (it's popular in your posts, at least).

I don't know when or where the idea arose. The idea the paradoxical effect could serve to help confirm a diagnosis was first suggested to us by our doctor, who began to favor the practice about a year after we talked about the different individual experiences we had documented.

The existence of the effect is undeniable, though, and he wasn't acting in isolation. He has an extensive peer group of doctors in family practice actively treating children of all ages for AD/HD.

For actual research supporting the effect, you're going to have to go hunt. I don't know of any, which doesn't mean it isn't out there. It just doesn't have much to do with establishing the effect, or the fact that some doctors have suggested it could be a useful observation.

Now, what exactly was the point of your discussion again?

* * * * * * * *

Incidentally, Mee:

I've been taking stimulants for well over ten years, long enough that I've lost track. We don't take drug holidays. I took Ritalin for a brief period over thirty five years ago. There are lots of people that have been taking Ritalin without any harmful effect for twenty years or more. Most of them are in nursing homes.

I've never seen any actual research that suggests there are long term deleterious effects from Adderall or Ritalin. (Note that, strictly speaking, Ritalin is not a stimulant. We call it that because it's in the class of drugs used to treat AD/HD that includes stimulants.)

The tolerance you and many other ADDers talk about is not a tolerance at all, in strict scientific terms. Your personal observation of a lessened effect is certainly valid, and it's certainly a common perception, but it doesn't establish the existence of a tolerance, or necessarily suggest the hypothesis there might be one.

We have a quite detailed model of the brain the not only predicts AD/HD, but also things like the paradoxical effect of stimulants and the appearance of a tolerance exactly as you've described.

It even predicts things like this little discussion. But that's not really relevant to your question.

Yeah, we long term ADDers exist. Here I am. What was it you wanted to know?

Mee:

In response to your original title (not the post, which we found ourselves a little lost in because of the range), there are two things that leap to mind:

First, swap the phrase get better for something like change the way our lives are going, and maybe we'll have something real to talk about.

Second, check out the posts by SB_UK (who's on a hiatus right now). The last time we talked about it, he had dropped his meds and was happily soaring high above the treetops. He may have reason to take them from time to time, as the whim strikes him.

That's the exact opposite of addictive behavior, in the terms you described it. It's a pretty good indicator that he's not addicted, too.

There's a lot of us that do this; Kay and I have no trouble adjusting our dose or switching from Ritalin to Adderall and back, but we don't do it for the same reasons that SB_UK did. We soared without drugs, and we soar with them, too, and they happen to be appropriate for what we've been doing intellectually for the last ten years or so.

SB_UK is doing something very much like our son Bryan, who was diagnosed around seventh grade. He began with Ritalin and rapidly progressed to taking responsibility for his own medication schedule. By the time he was in college, he was taking either Adderall or Ritalin, and was quite eloquent about when and why he took them, and the exact effect of either medicating, or not.

Bryan's a jazz saxophonist, and he probably knows as much as anyone about how stimulants affect his creative effort, and his inner sense of his self. He graduated with great grades, but even more importantly, he's a uniquely talented artist who is already making an impact here.

He works with me a few days a week doing delicate machine work and helping build laboratory instruments that my company sells worldwide. He rarely uses Ritalin, almost never Adderall (because of the extended effect), and neither fact seems important.

He now sometimes talks about the effects as if they were simply 'uppers', but if I pin him down he describes pretty much what I observe: he decides to take a pill when he needs to focus in a particular way because of the task at hand, not when he's tired from a late gig or any other reason that misguided news stories go on about.

He once read one of those ubiquitous red herring articles about 'the rampant abuse of Adderall among college kids', and promptly claimed he had witnessed it. But when I asked about what exactly he had seen with his own eyes, he realized that his impulse to support the idea had no basis in fact.

He had blindly repeated something that was a matter of common perception among his peers, largely because of the concerted effort of a few ill-intentioned groups to get their ideas into the news.* He was properly embarrassed about it, too.

The only event he had actually witnessed was a few students that he knew personally, who were diagnosed and prescribed Adderall, borrowing one or two pills from a friend when they ran out during midterms or finals. Several times, he was the friend, and at least once, he was the borrower.

That's hardly abuse, or addiction, either. What it is, is ADD; Kay and I regularly screw up our own prescriptions, so we raid each others supply. Now our 'scripts are completely out of sync. We use hers for two weeks, then mine for two weeks, and so on.

We never got behind on our Ritalin 'scripts, though, and that is a common difference between the two, according to our doctors. We tend to hoard Ritalin, something that makes the stories of rampant student abuse seem even more silly. I wouldn't give up my supply even now.

Note that all of this is ordinary stuff – just the process of living, no addiction, or dependence, or even tolerance to the drug effect.

I think the real answer to your original question is that we are what we are, there's nothing at all wrong with us, and yes, it is possible to climb out of any hole we're in and get along fine being ourselves, with no drugs at all.

The only fly in the ointment** is the thing that put us in the hole in the first place, falsely believing that we must view ourselves and our efforts in normal terms. We will always find ourselves (and be found by others) wanting if we're judged by inappropriate standards, and of course the damage done living under those conditions is as varied as we are individually.

And so, too, is the path we each must follow. Accepting that, understanding it as intrinsic to the condition (if we must put a name to it, call it that), and a funny thing happens: you open up the door to recognizing a single underlying causative factor, the root of the shaky tree we're all clinging to.

But that is a whole other story, I think…

---------------------------------------
* Check out the sources of those pieces you posted. It can be done. We recognized the form of them right away; the last time we looked at similar items, perhaps a year ago now, we were able to track them to a story released to an online college newspaper 'wire service'.

The original source was a shadowy pseudo fundamentalist organization that we were never able to get any further with. There wasn't a word of truth in them.

** Well, almost the only fly in the ointment. The truth is a little more complicated, because there's other stuff that puts us in a hole, too, like the accumulated debris of hundreds of thousands of years of selection.

But the appearance that there are other things that get us down besides having/being AD/HD is an illusion. They both stem from the same underlying cause, straightforward changes in the way that we use our brains that allow us to see the debris, and ourselves, and that is what makes us different in the first place.

It's really all the same thing.

Stabile do you not think it is possible to get better without taking these drugs . All drugs have side effects and for me and many others here amphetamines as powerful as Ritilan or Adderall every few hours for the rest of our life is something we would rather not do if there is an alternative .

I thought this was a strange posting - I don't think this problem is about doing better or worse on or off stimulants, because this problem is more about the way a person functions in his/her world everyday - the way a person thinks, looks at, and responds to situations and people - it's about falling asleep when there is no interest, or getting lost when driving a car or forgetting where things are or not finishing what is started or not being able to keep papers orderly or being depressed or anxious and on and on - there is no choice or control as these things appear, and it drives the person and those around him/her, just crazy. I think medications help me to 're-orient' and to function more appropriately and effectively, period. To avoid 'tolerance', I will either vary dosage or vary medication, periodically. But this ADHD is definitley not a problem that you or I can talk ourselves out of or into - there is something chemically or other, not right, causing these things.

Bruce

Bruce I also I think medications helped me to 're-orient' and to function more appropriately and effectively .. but I am just looking at ways to accomplish the same things with lifestyle changes . I realize this may not be an option for some but at this point I would make just about any sacrifice and put in any amount of work if I could control my ADHD without drugs . This may not be the way to go for everyone it just seems there needs to be extensive research on drug free methods of ADHD treatment . When I see the commercials on TV all day about adult ADHD there seems to be just on solution take a pill and this is a trend for may health related problems are there no other solutions.

I found that aerobic exercise and finding new ways to eat helped almost as much as the medication with no side effects . I think there are other things that may also help but I was always just given the pill and nothing else by the Dr.'s . How many with ADHD are overweight ... how many with ADHD eat foods that are high in fats and sugars ..... how many with ADHD do not exercise daily .. I think if you do all of those and other things first and medication as a last resort we may find that the best way to improve ADHD symptoms is with healthy lifestyle changes and once a person has done all they can then as a last resort start taking stimulants for their ADHD . Just about every medical condition from physical to mental can be improved with healthy lifestyle changes .

For example here are 50 Ways to Improve Your Child’s Behavior and Attention Span without Drugs I know how much work this would be for parents and teachers but the fact is that there are ways to deal with it without drugs could there not also be a separate list for adults that is just as effective if someone wanted to do the work instead of just popping a pill .

1. Provide a balanced breakfast.
2. Consider the Feingold diet
3. Limit television and video games
4. Teach self-talk skills.
5. Find out what interests your child.
6. Promote a strong physical education program in your child’s school.
7. Enroll your child in a martial arts program.
8. Discover your child’s multiple intelligences (link)
9. Use background music to focus and calm.
10. Use color to highlight information.
11. Teach your child to visualize.
12. Remove allergens from the diet.
13. Provide opportunities for physical movement.
14. Enhance your child’s self-esteem.
15. Find your child’s best times of alertness.
16. Give instructions in attention-grabbing ways.
17. Provide a variety of stimulating learning activities.
18. Consider biofeedback training.
19. Activate positive career aspirations.
20. Teach your child physical-relaxation techniques.
21. Use incidental learning to teach.
22. Support full inclusion of your child in a regular classroom.
23. Provide positive role models.
24. Consider alternative schooling options.
25. Channel creative energy into the arts.
26. Provide hands-on activities
27. Spend positive times together.
28. Provide appropriate spaces for learning.
29. Consider individual psychotherapy.
30. Use touch to soothe and calm.
31. Help your child with organizational skills.
32. Help your child appreciate the value of personal effort.
33. Take care of yourself.
34. Teach your child focusing techniques.
35. Provide immediate feedback.
36. Provide your child with access to a computer.
37. Consider family therapy.
38. Teach problem-solving skills.
39. Offer your child real-life tasks to do.
40. Use "time-out" in a positive way.
41. Help your child develop social skills.
42. Contract with your child.
43. Use effective communication skills.
44. Give your child choices.
45. Discover the treat the four types of misbehavior.
46. Establish consistent rules, routines, and transitions.
47. Hold family meetings.
48. Have your child teach a younger child.
49. Use natural and logical consequences.
50. Hold a positive image of your child.

I know if my parents and teachers had made the time to do these things instead of just giving me Ritilan I would have been much better and probably not needed these drugs .

Stabile do you not think it is possible to get better without taking these drugs…
No, not get better, but it is certainly possible to improve our lives without drugs at all. Drugs are clearly not effective in every situation, and not for every individual in similar situations. Hallowell himself is a great example of this.

Drugs are not necessary, and in the long term the need for them will disappear. The only reason we need drugs is that we're temporarily living in two worlds, ours and the normal's. When that situation is resolved, (which should be Real Soon Now) our entire perspective on this will be transformed.

That's based on our own research, which is still in progress and not yet widely known. So it is, in that sense, our opinion, but the models are solid and have been subject to pretty intense scrutiny for several years. So it's best to think of it as preliminary research results, and not opinion in the sense that we just sat around and made it up, or that it just seems to be true or obvious. (It's anything but obvious.)


…we would rather not do if there is an alternative.
What we is that? You can't speak for the rest of us on this issue; if you try, you're likely to find out just how defensive some of us are about our meds, which are an important part of our lives.


I thought this was a strange posting - I don't think this problem is about doing better or worse on or off stimulants, because this problem is more about the way a person functions in his/her world everyday - the way a person thinks, looks at, and responds to situations and people - it's about falling asleep when there is no interest, or getting lost when driving a car or forgetting where things are or not finishing what is started or not being able to keep papers orderly or being depressed or anxious and on and on - there is no choice or control as these things appear, and it drives the person and those around him/her, just crazy. I think medications help me to 're-orient' and to function more appropriately and effectively, period. To avoid 'tolerance', I will either vary dosage or vary medication, periodically. But this ADHD is definitley not a problem that you or I can talk ourselves out of or into - there is something chemically or other, not right, causing these things.

Bruce
Exactly so, and the good news is, there's not a thing wrong with us, chemically or otherwise.

The thing that is causing these things is a relatively simple difference in how we use our brains, compared to the way that normals use their brains. That is exactly the result and point of our research, and it wasn't something we expected at all.

It wasn't about AD/HD, either; being able to explain why we experience the problems we do was strictly a side effect. We set out to understand gender differences in human communication, which meant we needed to understand gender differences in how we think.

That in turn required understanding all differences in how our minds work, in order to differentiate the ones related to gender. Some of the more important differences turned out to be related to AD/HD. It was a big job, far more difficult and time consuming than we thought initially.

Incidentally, you might be interested to know that (to a certain extent) we choose which path we take, normal or ADDer. By that we mean we all have the same underlying potential, and some of us use it to suppress the appearance of being different, while others embrace it and celebrate the difference.

In part, that sets up the appearance of polarization between ADDers and normals, and so is partly responsible for the animosity some normals display towards us.

--Tom and Kay

That list insults us; most of the items are obvious, stuff any parent does automatically. But unless they think about it, they might not be prepared to explain how they do them.

We believe the list is meant to imply to worried parents that they aren't doing these things, and that is the height of deceit. Parents shouldn't be challenged to defend themselves by people purporting to help them.


But this goes further that that: Mee, you are busted.

Anyone who Googles 50 Ways to Improve Your Child’s Behavior and Attention Span without Drugs will wind up at Thomas Armstrong's web site, which is where I thought I had seen that phrase.

Armstrong is a well known AD/HD basher, one of the more dangerous anti AD/HD kooks out there, in our opinion. Our impression is this guy hates ADDers, and some of his suggestions about how to 'help' kids in the classroom are only a bare step away from the popular 'discipline 'em until they stop it' school.

Now, that is opinion, but here is fact:

Armstrong's entire thesis is based in his bigoted personal conviction that AD/HD doesn't exist.

Anyone here that feels comfortable with that is in the wrong place. I've notified the forum administrators that your post is an (unattributed) rip of Armstrong's list, and that we consider presentation of his anti-ADDer ideas inappropriate and offensive.

Wow...this has become a hot thread. I really see everybody's point too. I think each person has to do what is right for him or her when it comes to medication. I don't think working "harder" is the answer. In many cases all trying to work harder does is shut down the brain of a person with ADD becauase of the pressure. Trying different ways of doing things that are "ADD Friendly" may work for some people though.

Stimulant medications effect people differently. There some people with out ADD who do benefit from stimulants and not get high. There are some people with ADD who do not benefit at all from stimulant medication. The US Military even gives stimulant medications to Fighter Pilots during combat time.

No, there haven't been very many people on Stimulant medication for 10 or 20 years at time. That's because up until very recently the medical community thought ADD went away.

I don't think that continuing this debate is going to be helpful. Each person needs to do what is right for him or her and respect other people educated informed choices about medication

Well, I'm not ashamed since I was trying to pass on info that I have read myself and believed to be true, but I'm certainly no expert on pharmachology. A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing I suppose. I'm beginning to think that I've been going too far with the info and opinions that I post here - my intentions are to help, to reassure people about things that they perhaps didn't get a chance to ask their doctors about or things their doctors didn't have the time to explain and to assuage the panic and fear that some have after reading biased or poorly researched media reports. It bothers me greatly when I find that I have made a mistake, passed on inaccurate or incomplete information or when I have offended someone inadvertantly. I try to walk a fine line when it comes to how I portray what I "know" - I want to appear confident, since it's hard to reassure someone if you sound like you are waffling, but I don't want people to think that they don't have to ask their doctor about an important question because I've said something on the issue and I appear to know what I'm talking about. My intentions are good, but you know what they say about the road to hell.......
Perhaps I should just moderate for fear that I might pontificate?