View Full Version : BPD- what's an "unstable sense of self"??


Fuzzy12
06-12-13, 12:14 PM
This is one of the symptoms of BPD and I don't really understand what it means. Can anyone explain it to me please?

Oh and also, derealisation, personalisation and dissociation. Sorry, they sound pretty self explanatory, but I don't really get it. :scratch:

atSWIMtooboreds
06-12-13, 12:23 PM
This is one of the symptoms of BPD and I don't really understand what it means. Can anyone explain it to me please?

Difficult to explain... You can kind of see it when you know someone with BPD, but I assume it's one of those symptoms that only truly makes sense firsthand.

Here are a few links:
http://bpd.about.com/od/understandingbpd/a/whoami.htm
https://showard76.wordpress.com/2011/10/08/reinventing-self-the-bpd-unstable-sense-of-self-and-identity-rears-its-ugly-head-again/
{http://www.downwardspiralintothevortex.com/2010/12/said-alice-to-caterpillar-criteria-3.html}

dvdnvwls
06-12-13, 12:59 PM
Some over-simplified definitions:

Derealization: the person experiences the world as not real.

Depersonalization: the person experiences events as if they are not themselves, just an observer who can't do anything.

Dissociation: a more-general term that includes the other two, plus anything else where "world and/or self coming apart, being fake, etc" are included (multiple personality, etc).

Unstable sense of self: The person does not seem to have a personality of his own - he seems to change to a completely new self depending on his surroundings.

Look at this page from PBS (http://www.pbs.org/thisemotionallife/topic/bpd/symptoms) for better wording on a few basic definitions and more information.

known_guy
06-12-13, 01:24 PM
Back when I was wrestling with a potential BPD diagnosis, such symptoms bewildered me. I had no clue what clinicians meant by "sense of self" or dissociative symptoms.I think the closest I've gotten to understanding that is daydreaming, which my doctor clarified isn't what they think of as symptomatic when it comes to dissociation.

I must admit, I resorted to certain... irresponsible behaviors to help provide insight as to how a dissociative state feels (on the plus side, it worked).

You did mean depersonalization, not personalization, right? The latter happens to be a characteristic trait (commonality, rather) in BPD coincidentally. One of them "cognitive distortions" mental health professionals yap about.

dvdnvwls
06-12-13, 01:34 PM
I have read that daydreaming is a mild, normal, expected kind of dissociation, but that when doctors talk about dissociation they are always talking about something much worse.

I'm assuming it's the same situation as with forgetting in ADHD: the people who say "everybody forgets sometimes, there's nothing wrong with you" have no idea what they're talking about - seems to go along with (for BPD) people who would say "everybody daydreams and feels funny sometimes, there's nothing wrong with you" and who have no idea what they're talking about either.

atSWIMtooboreds
06-12-13, 01:36 PM
I have read that daydreaming is a mild, normal, expected kind of dissociation, but that when doctors talk about dissociation they are always talking about something much worse.

I'm assuming it's the same situation as with forgetting in ADHD: the people who say "everybody forgets sometimes, there's nothing wrong with you" have no idea what they're talking about - seems to go along with (for BPD) people who would say "everybody daydreams and feels funny sometimes, there's nothing wrong with you" and who have no idea what they're talking about either.

Yep. I read a good description of the BPD kind of dissociation, I think, on psychforums. The post was called "Rage then Amnesia!"

daveddd
06-16-13, 10:14 AM
lack of connectedness to the world

inability to see yourself as others see you

some generic definitions of sense of self.. confusion about sexuality, career, morals , religion and so on

Blanched Dubois
06-16-13, 10:22 AM
Yes. Lack of real connection that's not forced and Borderline's are quite rare as are NPD.

My mother is both and truly it is interesting once you remove yourself from the life of one of these people and view it without the pain once felt and confusion! - Borderline folks are so insecure and so nebulous in terms of self identity ( or deluded ) they are chameleon like - changing to suit whomever they talk to ....they often will mimic someone else.

It's as though the person 'checked out' and something else checked in and is operating in their body ....i've seen the oddest behavior over the years by my mother.

As a child I recall how she would change in an instant from a ranting psycho into a demure lady taking a phone call.

Chilling.

daveddd
06-16-13, 10:23 AM
dissociation - cutting visceral feeling off from cognition often an attempt to 'regulate' an overwhelming emotion

Fuzzy12
02-06-14, 03:55 PM
dissociation - cutting visceral feeling off from cognition often an attempt to 'regulate' an overwhelming emotion

Dave, what do you mean by this?

daveddd
02-06-14, 04:02 PM
sometimes a whole swirling amount of negative affect can be going on inside , when cognitively you emotions are , bleh , empty, bored, impulsive

eventually this can lead to episodes or chronic states of depersonalization , or feeling like you are watching you life go by as an outside observer

you have no connection to anything that is happening to you, like a robot going through the motions

or derealization- where your environment (home, work, etc) all seem strange to you, like its not yours, intellectually you know it is , but there is no attachment

i forgot values and goals as the most important parts of sense of self

dvdnvwls
02-06-14, 04:04 PM
(I think he's talking about when someone keeps mind and body separate, and locks a strong emotion in the mind only, attempting to prevent that emotion from hurting the body.)

daveddd
02-06-14, 04:05 PM
emotions are the bridge between your self and reality

daveddd
02-06-14, 04:13 PM
(I think he's talking about when someone keeps mind and body separate, and locks a strong emotion in the mind only, attempting to prevent that emotion from hurting the body.)

opposite

emotions originate in the body, physiological changes, like a sense

we can keep them out of the mind because the mind is more fragile

its why often people with these characteristics hurt themselves, to control the physical pain

dvdnvwls
02-06-14, 04:13 PM
emotions are the bridge between your self and reality
Absolutely... and they are also the bridge between your self and your self.

Any kind of cut-off point or barrier preventing any emotion from moving freely within you (both mind and body) is a primary source of confusion and pain.

It's a very common mistake to believe that emotions arising from bad events are painful and dangerous. They aren't.

A bad event itself is painful and dangerous of course, but the emotions arising from it are not dangerous and need to be accepted openly. They are painful at first, and then always fade. Only when emotions are blocked from their natural progress do they become dangerous; only when unnaturally blocked do they refuse to fade.

dvdnvwls
02-06-14, 04:15 PM
opposite

emotions originate in the body, physiological changes, like a sense

we can keep them out of the mind because the mind is more fragile

its why often people with these characteristics hurt themselves, to control the physical pain
Thank you - wow - that makes a lot more sense. Sorry for the cluelessness of my comment.

daveddd
02-06-14, 04:17 PM
Absolutely... and they are also the bridge between your self and your self.

Any kind of cut-off point or barrier preventing any emotion from moving freely within you (both mind and body) is a primary source of confusion and pain.

It's a very common mistake to believe that emotions arising from bad events are painful and dangerous. They aren't.

A bad event itself is painful and dangerous of course, but the emotions arising from it are not dangerous and need to be accepted openly. They are painful at first, and then always fade. Only when emotions are blocked from their natural progress do they become dangerous; only when unnaturally blocked do they refuse to fade.

self and the self

the characteristics described here are by some called depression , due to the loss of the true self

so that makes sense

daveddd
02-06-14, 04:18 PM
Thank you - wow - that makes a lot more sense. Sorry for the cluelessness of my comment.

seems like you knew what you meant

Fuzzy12
02-06-14, 04:21 PM
deleted...probably not relevant based on the latest posts.

daveddd
02-06-14, 04:27 PM
being an objective observer of your emotions would be healthy

so strongly physical with either a cut off from awareness

or extreme attempts to cut off from awareness , or push away, accompanied by confusion as to the meaning or origination of the emotion( due to pushing away from cognition )



its said (I'm no prime example for a sense of self) that if everything you say or do is in accordance with your true values, you'll be just fine

Fuzzy12
02-06-14, 04:29 PM
opposite

emotions originate in the body, physiological changes, like a sense

we can keep them out of the mind because the mind is more fragile

its why often people with these characteristics hurt themselves, to control the physical pain

So are you saying (I'm still being thick.. inspite of the added explanations, sorry) that emotions cause physiological changes or that these physiological changes in your body (in reaction to some sort of thought) are what is called an emotion?

Do people with BPD hurt themselves (physically) to distract themselves from the emotional pain? Or do they hurt themselves (physically) because physical pain is something they can understand (and control in the sense that they are inflicting it on themselves voluntarily but emotional pain isn't?

daveddd
02-06-14, 04:34 PM
physiological changes are the original pre conscious "feeling" that constitutes an emotion

it can be brought on by thoughts, memories , outside action

emotion is the transition of the feeling to cognition and the meaning it brings to you

step one in emotional regulation

Fuzzy12
02-06-14, 04:34 PM
being an objective observer of your emotions would be healthy

so strongly physical with either a cut off from awareness

or extreme attempts to cut off from awareness , or push away, accompanied by confusion as to the meaning or origination of the emotion( due to pushing away from cognition )



its said (I'm no prime example for a sense of self) that if everything you say or do is in accordance with your true values, you'll be just fine

So suppressing emotions? Or going to extreme lengths to avoid triggers that induce them?

And then because you pushed them away, actively tried not to humour them, you don't get a chance to think about them and when they continue you are confused and maybe a bit disgusted by the existence of these seemingly completely irrational emotions?

(I don't know what true values are. I don't think I have any and if I did I wouldn't recognise them even if they hit me over the head with a sledge hammer. I'm way too conflicted and suspicious about everything) :scratch:

Fuzzy12
02-06-14, 04:36 PM
physiological changes are the original pre conscious "feeling" that constitutes an emotion

it can be brought on by thoughts, memories , outside action

emotion is the transition of the feeling to cognition and the meaning it brings to you

step one in emotional regulation

So in the process you outlined at which point does BPD make an appearance?

Is it when you feel an emotion physically but then push it away rather than accepting it, thinking about it, and deciphering its meaning?

daveddd
02-06-14, 04:36 PM
http://books.google.com/books?id=UZim3OAPwe8C&pg=PA149&dq=borderline+personality+emotion+regulation&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6EPyUravIIKsyAHtuIGoAQ&ved=0CCgQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=borderline%20personality%20emotion%20regulation&f=false


i put it right to it

its explained better in one paragraph

Fuzzy12
02-06-14, 04:39 PM
http://books.google.com/books?id=UZim3OAPwe8C&pg=PA149&dq=borderline+personality+emotion+regulation&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6EPyUravIIKsyAHtuIGoAQ&ved=0CCgQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=borderline%20personality%20emotion%20regulation&f=false


i put it right to it

its explained better in one paragraph

Thanks tons!!!! :)

Hm..very interesting. Seems like a very readable book.

BellaVita
02-06-14, 04:40 PM
Hey Fuzzy,
To answer your question in title:

In my ex (BPD) his "unstable sense of self" took shape in many forms.

He was constantly trying to assert himself - become someone. Often he would spend time defining his personality to others. (This definition would change throughout time)

He got really unstable once, and changed his last name.

He really had no clue how to define himself.

Fuzzy12
02-06-14, 04:49 PM
Hey Fuzzy,
To answer your question in title:

In my ex (BPD) his "unstable sense of self" took shape in many forms.

He was constantly trying to assert himself - become someone. Often he would spend time defining his personality to others. (This definition would change throughout time)

He got really unstable once, and changed his last name.

He really had no clue how to define himself.

Does anyone know how to define themselves???? :eek::eek::eek:

I mean, do people usually have a stable definition of themselves? And what is this definition? What is it based on? Values & goals? Character traits? Background? Emotions? Are people normally clear about this?????

BellaVita
02-06-14, 04:54 PM
Does anyone know how to define themselves???? :eek::eek::eek:

I mean, do people usually have a stable definition of themselves? And what is this definition? What is it based on? Values & goals? Character traits? Background? Emotions? Are people normally clear about this?????

Hmmm good question. :scratch:

I guess, the frequency of which he tried to define and redefine himself was abnormal.

Or sometimes, when he would hurt me, he would say that "he thought he was his dad" or that "I was his dad" or something...(His dad abused him when younger.)

Now that's obviously likely a lie, or maybe some form of disassociation etc....

(PS the above is another example of "unstable sense of self")

Fuzzy12
02-06-14, 05:08 PM
Hmmm good question. :scratch:

I guess, the frequency of which he tried to define and redefine himself was abnormal.

Or sometimes, when he would hurt me, he would say that "he thought he was his dad" or that "I was his dad" or something...(His dad abused him when younger.)

Now that's obviously likely a lie, or maybe some form of disassociation etc....

(PS the above is another example of "unstable sense of self")

Bells, thanks for sharing. That sounds pretty disturbing. I'm sorry he hurt you. .... :-(

BellaVita
02-06-14, 05:12 PM
Oops I think I meant "dissociation"

daveddd
02-06-14, 05:44 PM
Thanks tons!!!! :)

Hm..very interesting. Seems like a very readable book.

yea the author is the creator of DBT, so her word is very reliable

in the 90s they didn't have ADHD with severe emotional dysregulation ,

it was all BPD, linehan also states that about 80% percent of her patients has LDs, attentional disorders, or epilepsy as children

daveddd
02-06-14, 06:03 PM
So are you saying (I'm still being thick.. inspite of the added explanations, sorry) that emotions cause physiological changes or that these physiological changes in your body (in reaction to some sort of thought) are what is called an emotion?

Do people with BPD hurt themselves (physically) to distract themselves from the emotional pain? Or do they hurt themselves (physically) because physical pain is something they can understand (and control in the sense that they are inflicting it on themselves voluntarily but emotional pain isn't?

also anxiety, rage, depression, shame can be attempts to push away a primary emotion

VeryTired
02-06-14, 06:08 PM
Um, Fuzzy, are you OK today? There are interesting and important topics, but I'm wondering if they are on your mind now because things aren't good with you. I hope not.

Fuzzy12
02-06-14, 06:09 PM
also anxiety, rage, depression, shame can be attempts to push away a primary emotion

Could they not be the result of primary emotions?

BellaVita
02-06-14, 06:11 PM
also anxiety, rage, depression, shame can be attempts to push away a primary emotion

Let's not forget, that underneath that, are chronic feelings of emptiness

(Now I may be wrong about it being "underneath" - I'm not quite sure where it resides)

daveddd
02-06-14, 06:12 PM
Let's not forget, that underneath that, are chronic feelings of emptiness

(Now I may be wrong about it being "underneath" - I'm not quite sure where it resides)

chronic feelings of emptiness are thought to be a result of the chronic detachment of emotion

BellaVita
02-06-14, 06:13 PM
chronic feelings of emptiness are thought to be a result of the chronic detachment of emotion

Oh, I see. Thanks :)

daveddd
02-06-14, 06:15 PM
Could they not be the result of primary emotions?

result as in the context of pushing away

primary emotions should be used to assess situations , not created rage or shame

the primary emotions (possibly intense) for one reason or another do not mesh with the self

dvdnvwls
02-06-14, 06:22 PM
Could they not be the result of primary emotions?
No. They are after-the-fact. When the original emotion is blocked, these others come in. Like flies. Un-blocking the original emotion is essential.

daveddd
02-06-14, 06:25 PM
No. They are after-the-fact. When the original emotion is blocked, these others come in. Like flies. Un-blocking the original emotion is essential.

I've done it a few times with mindfulness


your right essential

but very difficult both to do and to face

Fuzzy12
02-06-14, 06:27 PM
I need to read the book but what's a primary emotion? The chronologically first emotion or emotional reaction to an event? Or the underlying emotion if all other emotions?

daveddd
02-06-14, 06:32 PM
I need to read the book but what's a primary emotion? The chronologically first emotion or emotional reaction to an event? Or the underlying emotion if all other emotions?


http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=thomas%20brown%20top%20down%20emotion%20regulati on%20adhd&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CDQQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.adhd.is%2Fstatic%2Ffiles%2Fgr einasafn%2Fglaerur_Tok_a_tilveru%2F20.ppt&ei=P6KCUv6ZD4-E2wX7qID4BA&usg=AFQjCNHcXYFfPh0dKEAYzSFYBVa1UxM2Xg&sig2=hW0rnWvVP75XDMBWv26FMw


clear info on a short power point

Fuzzy12
02-06-14, 06:33 PM
Um, Fuzzy, are you OK today? There are interesting and important topics, but I'm wondering if they are on your mind now because things aren't good with you. I hope not.

Please don't worry. I'm ok. Well, not really but it doesn't matter. Just more emotional reg issues and s then I remembered some old threads I'm just trying to understand why i think, act an d feel the way I do. I don't think it's normal and if it's normal I don't like it. It doesn't make sense to me. This thread isn't completely and suddenly out of the blue by the way. It's quite an old read that I remembered today. I used to wonder about bpd.

Sorry..I should ts have probasly posted on my emotional reg thread rather thn reviving th is ancient thread.

BellaVita
02-06-14, 06:34 PM
Please don't worry. I'm ok. Well, not really but it doesn't matter. I'm just trying to understand why i think, act an d feel the way I do. I don't think it's normal and if it's normal I don't like it. It didn't make sense to me. This thread isn't completely and suddenly out of the blue by the way. It's quite an old read that I remembered today. I used to wonder about bpd.

Fuzzy, it does matter. Maybe you don't know it matters...

Good for you on reading up about BPD

:grouphug:

dvdnvwls
02-06-14, 06:34 PM
I need to read the book but what's a primary emotion? The chronologically first emotion or emotional reaction to an event? Or the underlying emotion if all other emotions?
The emotion(s) that was/were directly caused by the event. Not the emotion(s) that are reactions to other emotions.

Some emotions relate directly to a life event. Other emotions are "internal commentary" on things. It's the ones that spring directly from the event that count.

dvdnvwls
02-06-14, 06:41 PM
In essence: Denying or obliterating a past event is impossible. Destroying the evidence of any one event would mean destroying the entire brain.

Fuzzy12
02-06-14, 06:46 PM
In essence: Denying or obliterating a past event is impossible. Destroying the evidence of any one event would mean destroying the entire brain.

Not the worst option. Maybe then I Can have a new one. :(

dvdnvwls
02-06-14, 07:48 PM
Not the worst option. Maybe then I Can have a new one. :(
I'm seriously asking if you're serious. Are you serious? If not, then what?

Fuzzy12
02-06-14, 08:41 PM
Just wishful thinking

avjgirsijdhtjhs
02-06-14, 09:28 PM
Remember like a year ago or whatever when Abi said that you don't do splitting? Do you know what splitting is?

People that are really important to you - do you alternate between liking them a lot and pretty much putting them on a pedestal, and hating\angertowards them to the extreme, with no middle ground, and with these black\white opinions of them being because of (to quote the DSM-IV) "real or imagined abandonment", and being REALLY push, then pull, then push, then pull, then push, then pull, then push, then pull, then push, then pull ALWAYS testing them to see if they'll leave you, since you're fears that they'll leave are never permanently extinguished, and so you keep testing them and also make them have to walk on eggshells bigtime to stay on your good side, and even then that isn't enough? Do you do that? I'll tell you what, I sure haven't seen it... ...but then again, I'm not a love interest or close family member either, or even know you in person... ...but do people have to walk on eggshells around you? Like I said, at the very least, I haven't seen it.

Fortune
02-06-14, 09:33 PM
Splitting is not required for a BPD diagnosis. It is one of the possible symptoms that can point to it.

avjgirsijdhtjhs
02-06-14, 09:41 PM
Splitting is not required for a BPD diagnosis. It is one of the possible symptoms that can point to it.

I was under the impression that it was like a huge and absolutely critical part of BPD. Not saying you're wrong (or that I think you're wrong, either), by the way, just literally what the first sentence says "I was under the impression" - this coming from about two weeks of reading on it in the summer of a year and a half ago.

Fortune
02-06-14, 10:31 PM
It might have changed in DSM-5 but in IV it didn't seem to be required.

It is a big indicator, though.

ginniebean
02-06-14, 11:06 PM
My mother has bpd and hpd. Both have been diagnosed. I can only describe what it looks like from the outside.

No stable sense of self. What I see is my mother wants to be pleasing towards others, so in a sense she becomes what she senses they want her to be. Because of her HPD this happens mostly with men, and often it's seductive. If I was going to use one word to describe the action of having no stable sense of self it would be seduction.

Whether it be males or females, there is a sense of initial seduction. A "see how nice I am" or something along those lines. As much as a person with bpd tries to maintain this image there is a focus on having attention placed on the self that is an underlying motive. People with bpd are aware of this but they appear to be starving for some kind of mirroring. The problem is, when you have to seduce or manipulate to get this attention, they know it's not real, there is a sense of performance. If I perform like this, you give me love and attention, but you only love the performance so you don't see the real me and therefore I will still not get the love and attention I need and crave. It's a catch 22 scenario.

There is also the derealization which from the outside looks like the person is encased in a room of thick glass, you can see them, but there's a thick wall up and they can't feel you and you can't feel them anymore. When my mother does this there is usually something going on she doesn't like, so it's like she goes, "I don't like this piece of reality" and as if it was a box of chocolates she throws out the ones she doesn't like. In order to avoid or deny the rejected pieces of reality she will distort and contort the truth of the situation even when it's impossible for anyone else to believe it. She wants to convince herself and of course others and will get angry when others say, 'that's not right" the denial is thick.

At bottom, there is a lot of unacknowledged shame, and yet at the same time an aggressive and shameless seduction of people to get this emotional unfulfilled needs met.

People with PD's do have loving feelings, and can have them, but they tend to be shallow and about their feelings and not about anothers needs for emotional security I get the sense that PD's want to love but don't know how to and so feel defeated before they begin. It's a sad cycle of wanting to be loved, and wanting to love but never really getting either.

I don't know if this fits all people with PD's but this is something I have seen re-enacted in many people I've known who have PD's.

Sickle
02-07-14, 05:16 AM
My mom had this problem, here's an example. She sent us away for the weekend because her and my stepdad had been fighting but he was a jerk so, this was nothing new. Well, we were Catholic, went to mass all week to be altar boys etc. was conservative etc. Then when we got back, she was like a different person. However, the women she dated were just as bad as the stepdad was. She seemed to go through these "new me" things and when she was with someone else, like a self-made stepford wife or something. She'd refer to herself as Dan and I, Kris and I, April and I... rather than I. She became whoever she was in a relationship with and would change almost everything and I always perceived that kind of thing to be what that terminology meant.

It COULD have a connection to the abandonment that they both fear and in many cases experienced from someone important in their life (my mom was left at her grandmothers house one day and she never came back to get her) and on some level, I think they want to recreate the chaos and drama that they've always known...). My moms antics didn't involve cutting but the threats to kill herself and wish to die seemed to be around then she would decide to lock herself in the bathroom to see which one of us kids will be the "one that cares and loves her". She would revert to the age of 9 or something and collapse. She used to beat us with tree branches, electric cords. She also never kept friends and felt empty. Every relationship she had was with grandiose types (narcissistic but so out of touch it is insane) and she would control them and they would her but they were both nasty to us. I never cared and my brother carried after his mommy and my stepdad, he has ASPD and BPD... what a combo... lol

I understand that some people are aware of their problem and are doing what they can to change and I respect and support you 100% at getting better. However, when the mental health system (her old therapist) has the nerve to tell us we should feel sorry for her and just deal with her drama because, she's not right because she was invalidated or something. I am not being cold, I feel for many people with this issue because it sounds like it is not much fun. Not everyone with this issue is the same either... on one end you have celebs that are accomplished and they deal with their illness well and Jeffrey Dahmer and Aileen Wuornos were both diagnosed with it as well. It is a spectrum or sometimes rapid cycling bipolar II or PTSD, etc. or billed to get them into DBT.

daveddd
02-07-14, 06:39 AM
amazing how many people with adhd have a parent with BPD

strange coincidence

completely unrelated?

daveddd
02-07-14, 06:45 AM
I was under the impression that it was like a huge and absolutely critical part of BPD. Not saying you're wrong (or that I think you're wrong, either), by the way, just literally what the first sentence says "I was under the impression" - this coming from about two weeks of reading on it in the summer of a year and a half ago.

there is no critical part to have a PD, you have to meet 5 of the 9 symptoms

its the problem theodore million had with it

two people can have BPD and only share one symptom

PDs are not a specific disease


so if someone shares a lot of the features, as a lot of people with emotional dysregulation do, its probably better to address the symptoms instead of trying to convince themselves that they don't have them, the problems can be helped in the same way

daveddd
02-07-14, 07:02 AM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24117059

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23424747

a couple short articles on why ADHD may play a large role is one specific sub set of BPD patients

daveddd
02-07-14, 07:07 AM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3214601/

forgot one

Fuzzy12
02-07-14, 08:28 AM
Remember like a year ago or whatever when Abi said that you don't do splitting? Do you know what splitting is?

People that are really important to you - do you alternate between liking them a lot and pretty much putting them on a pedestal, and hating\angertowards them to the extreme, with no middle ground, and with these black\white opinions of them being because of (to quote the DSM-IV) "real or imagined abandonment", and being REALLY push, then pull, then push, then pull, then push, then pull, then push, then pull, then push, then pull ALWAYS testing them to see if they'll leave you, since you're fears that they'll leave are never permanently extinguished, and so you keep testing them and also make them have to walk on eggshells bigtime to stay on your good side, and even then that isn't enough? Do you do that? I'll tell you what, I sure haven't seen it... ...but then again, I'm not a love interest or close family member either, or even know you in person... ...but do people have to walk on eggshells around you? Like I said, at the very least, I haven't seen it.

Yes, I remember talking about splitting and back then I didn't think I did it. Now I'm not so sure anymore. My interactions with humans in general are pretty messed up. Most of the time I'm totally disinterested, but every once in a while I go to the other extreme.

Very rarely, I do idealise people though I don't think I exactly devalue them. I don't deal well with rejection or abandonment, neither perceived nor real (and trying to figure out what is real and what isn't is enough to drive me crazy) and when I start feeling abandoned, it hurts a lot more than it should. Way too much. It feels like continuously being punched hard in the stomach (and I mean that in a very physical way. I feel it in my stomach, in my chest and I struggle to breathe.)

The rejection itself hurts like crazy. The fact that I care so much, when I don't understand why and act crazy without being able to stop it makes me feel even worse. It makes me feel stupid, weak, pathetic and disgusted with myself. Maybe I do go to unreasonable lengths in an attempt to stop feeling that way.

I don't think I keep testing people. I hate being tested myself (my MIL does that all the time to me..and I always fail her tests. ) and I really hope I don't subject others to that. I also don't think anyone has to walk on egg shells around me. Anyway, I'm pretty sure no one does that. Definitely not my family and none of my friends/acquaintances either. On the contrary. I have been told though (by hubby, my mom and MIL) that I can be very harsh on people, hold grudges forever, never forgive anyone and never give anyone a second chance. I always used to wonder how hubby could be so forgiving, so maybe it's true.

I don't think I have BPD. I have 3-4 symptoms and they could be explained away by depression, bipolar or maybe even ADHD. But then I'm not sure if I really am bipolar. I think (and that's what the guy who diagnosed me with ADHD thinks) that I just have extreme problems with emotional regulation. Maybe I have borderline-borderline personality disorder. :rolleyes:

Fuzzy12
02-07-14, 08:57 AM
Ginnie and Sickle, thanks so much for sharing your experiences. That sounds heartbreaking..especially for you, the children. It seems like you bore the brunt of it. One of the reasons why I don't want (well, I do want, but can't, shouldn't) have children is because I'm pretty sure I'm too messed up to be let loose on an innocent, helpless child. As it is I hurt plenty of people already.

I can't really relate to the descriptions you've given though. I am very self absorbed and I'm still not sure what a sense of self is (though I think for me, that's more of a philosophical problem rather than a psychological one) but I don't keep changing my colours like a chameleon though I often wish I could. I also don't think that I'm so..well, I don't know, damaging/abusive/destructive. I mean I can be very destructive but it's usually directed at me though I'm sure that others suffer from my self destructive actions too. I don't know. Maybe I just don't want to relate because it sounds so nasty. I remember reading a blog about a girl with BPD. She sounded like a really nice person but I couldn't really relate to her experiences either.

I also don't fit the profile of someone with BPD. I mean, there is no reason why I should have it. I have read (a while ago so I might be remembering wrong) that BPD usually develops as a response to childhood experiences of abuse or neglect. I've experienced neither, on the contrary.

Fuzzy12
02-07-14, 09:06 AM
Dave, thanks so much for all the info!! I am staying at home today to read through all the info and I'm going to order Marsha Linehan's book. BPD or not, it seems like DBT can help with emotional regulation in general though it doesn't sound like a lot of fun. I am still kind of hoping that I can find a way to just switch off unwanted feelings. I'm starting to understand why that isn't possible and maybe not very healthy in the long run but uggh.... I hate feeling this way. Whatever the purpose of my emotions is, they are not fulfilling it, never have. On the contrary. But maybe that's because I'm not dealing with them properly.

I'm a bit embarrassed about ordering this book. This is not something I want to discuss with my husband (or have him suspect it). Hell, it's bad enough discussing it with you guys. I mean, I'm super grateful for the inputs but it's..embarrassing. Shameful. Uggh..more emotions that I hate.

daveddd
02-07-14, 09:34 AM
its generally personality traits , they can be a result of a negative emotional schema (difficulty with negative emotion)

like here high scores of borderline , avoid ant, and dependent can lead towards those traits

that is probably common in adhd



i relate

avjgirsijdhtjhs
02-07-14, 11:39 PM
What about opiates or opioids? Ever tried any? What about how you feel after some good cardio or after\when eating really spicy (as in capsaicin) foods?

Go Google up opiates\opioids with regards to:

1 - emotional pain, and also cutting

2 - OCD

3 - craving sweets (which from an article I just read says that sweets consumption temporarily raises beta-endorphin, but in the long run lowers it (https://www.google.com/search?q=physical+dependence&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a).)

I remember reading the Gabor Mate ADD book about four and a half years ago, and I think he mentioned something about what insults might would cause a person to have less endorphin and\or enkephalin signaling for the rest of their life...

I've taken DL-Phenylalanine a double digit number of times before and I'd generally feel more endorphin-y (endorphin = portmanteau of the words "endogenous", and "morphine", since it's the body's endogenous morphine-like chemical\neurotransmitter\whatever) afterwards (took it on an empty stomach - the D isomer is what gives the painkiller effect). It's the only opioid\opiate\endorphin\enkephalin drug\supplement\whatever that I know of that doesn't cause withdrawal, but I don't know much about that class of drugs though...

dvdnvwls
02-08-14, 02:58 AM
(emphasis mine) I am still kind of hoping that I can find a way to just switch off unwanted feelings. I'm starting to understand why that isn't possible and maybe not very healthy in the long run but uggh.... I hate feeling this way.
The difficult-to-understand part, the part that's missing from the description, is this pair of thoughts:

- Switching off feelings isn't possible or healthy in the short run either. It's 100% mistaken. Worse than useless in every situation.

- "I hate feeling this way" is entirely due to trying to switch them off, and never had anything to do with the painfulness of the emotions themselves.


When you finally stop trying to switch off the emotions attached to a particular situation, then yes it hurts, perhaps very badly, but for only a few hours or even minutes - and then the feeling continually improves, finally fading away to nothing. It may be a very long and uneven process - but it IS a process, one that has some kind of sequence and an end-point. Switched-off emotions, by contrast, are perpetual flaming shipwrecks in the brain, never burning out, never sinking. It's the attempted switching-off that's hurting so badly. Fear builds up, with the idea that switching some emotions back on would be overwhelming; but overwhelming has already happened, and it's not going to get worse by releasing a few internal chains.

Fuzzy12
02-08-14, 03:23 AM
i believe someone can cycle between intro and extroversion

usually it gos along with shifts in self esteem

this person is generally on the severe side of neurological impairment

Sorry from another thread. Isn't this normal?

Fuzzy12
02-08-14, 03:30 AM
(emphasis mine)
The difficult-to-understand part, the part that's missing from the description, is this pair of thoughts:

- Switching off feelings isn't possible or healthy in the short run either. It's 100% mistaken. Worse than useless in every situation.

- "I hate feeling this way" is entirely due to trying to switch them off, and never had anything to do with the painfulness of the emotions themselves.


When you finally stop trying to switch off the emotions attached to a particular situation, then yes it hurts, perhaps very badly, but for only a few hours or even minutes - and then the feeling continually improves, finally fading away to nothing. It may be a very long and uneven process - but it IS a process, one that has some kind of sequence and an end-point. Switched-off emotions, by contrast, are perpetual flaming shipwrecks in the brain, never burning out, never sinking. It's the attempted switching-off that's hurting so badly. Fear builds up, with the idea that switching some emotions back on would be overwhelming; but overwhelming has already happened, and it's not going to get worse by releasing a few internal chains.

No, that's not true. It still hurts.

VeryTired
02-08-14, 12:51 PM
Hi, Fuzzy, and all--

I'm just wondering here, isn't it possible that a person with serious ADHD who gets a diagnosis as an adult has lots of ancillary issues stemming from the undiagnosed ADHD and the pains of trying to learn coping strategies in a world that didn't accommodate the ADHD? Kind of a PTSD-of life-long frustrations, embarrassments, confusions, difficulties? And if so, maybe even BPD and such could sometimes have similar roots in the ADHD?

I'm not trying to make one explanation for everything, but my partner has come to believe that much about him, and many of his great problems in life came from his undiagnosed ADHD and misguided unconscious attempts to cope, to self-medicate, etc.

His career difficulties and multiple marriages had a lot to do with impulsivity, and those in turn engendered crippling feelings of guilt which he sought to avoid. He ended up with multiple drug addictions (which he's since addressed successfully) in part because of attempts to self-medicate for the ADHD that he didn't know he had. Knowing that he often makes bad choices (problems with executive function) has made him fear to trust himself even while his impulsivity drives him to take actions, so there's lots of cognitive dissonance there.

His persistent life-long sense that something was wrong with him led to shame guilt and unbearable embarrassment about many things, which led to lots of running away, cutting ties and not looking back. Maybe that's also part of his gigantic tendency toward compartmentalization and the huge difficulty he has asking for help, saying he's failed, or even just admitting he doesn't know something.

All these things (and probably others I'm not thinking of right now) seem to swirl around the fundamental ADHD. He could probably drum up several other co-morbid diagnoses if he were so inclined, but to him it makes most sense to focus primarily on the ADHD and see it as central to much about him, and to recognize that he has a life time of self-formation that was organized in response to the (undiagnosed) disorder.

To me it seems as though something like this might be true for a lot of people. What do you all think?

daveddd
02-08-14, 12:56 PM
thats exactly what it is

one issue though for many of us, just taking stimulants doesn't address a lot of these issues that have come about from living with ADHD

and thats generally what the adhd treatment is

so while names and labels aren't important to a lot of us, proper understanding and treatment methods are

your husband is lucky that just treating adhd addressed all his issues, that happens in a small minority of adhd cases. a lot of us it does not

VeryTired
02-08-14, 01:08 PM
daveddd--

I think what you said is really true and important. Not the label, but the effective treatment. And I am thinking for some people, just seeing how the ADHD is at he core of other things may be a valuable tool. It's a starting point form which to rebuild, re-train, choose differently.

I wish I could say that my partner's treatment addressed all his issues. No way! Does that really happen for anyone? I would be surprised if it did. Getting on stimulant meds was hugely helpful for him in understanding his former addictions--he realized that if you have the meds you actually need, that help what's really wrong, taking dangerous other drugs less suited to the core issue isn't appealing, and that he might not ever have gotten in trouble with drugs if he'd been diagnosed and treated early in life. But the diagnosis and stimulants are just a starting point, and it's unclear how much one can realize/change/manage/choose to address in middle age after a lifetime of undiagnosed ADHD and all that it brings.

So, he's got plenty of troubles, still.

dvdnvwls
02-08-14, 01:13 PM
When you finally stop trying to switch off the emotions attached to a particular situation, then yes it hurts, perhaps very badly, but for only a few hours or even minutes - and then the feeling continually improves, finally fading away to nothing. It may be a very long and uneven process - but it IS a process, one that has some kind of sequence and an end-point. Switched-off emotions, by contrast, are perpetual flaming shipwrecks in the brain, never burning out, never sinking. It's the attempted switching-off that's hurting so badly. Fear builds up, with the idea that switching some emotions back on would be overwhelming; but overwhelming has already happened, and it's not going to get worse by releasing a few internal chains.

No, that's not true. It still hurts.
It's possible to temporarily release and then re-block something, especially when it's important.

A therapy technique called EMDR, most associated with helping people with PTSD or with anxiety about distressing memories, might be worth pursuing. It is in essence a practical method of diminishing bad memories. I've experienced it; IMO it's as comfortable and non-threatening a way of going through bad old stuff as one could possibly imagine. Go to emdr dot com for more information. I seem to find only a small number of practitioners in the UK, but still worth a look.

daveddd
02-08-14, 01:18 PM
verytired

understandable , and most adhd doctors have little clue the extent of ADHD

its why the recent power point by leading adhd researcher in post #43 is title "the unrecognized role of emotion in ADHD, and its social implications"

we have to look elsewhere for now for a lot of information

and yes some of the labels we have to look under to find the info are stigmatic

some of the problems your husband still has are unbearable to some of us, and yes it is possible for change

im 33 so maybe its different, i don't think so though

mrs. dobbs
02-26-14, 11:52 AM
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=thomas%20brown%20top%20down%20emotion%20regulati on%20adhd&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CDQQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.adhd.is%2Fstatic%2Ffiles%2Fgr einasafn%2Fglaerur_Tok_a_tilveru%2F20.ppt&ei=P6KCUv6ZD4-E2wX7qID4BA&usg=AFQjCNHcXYFfPh0dKEAYzSFYBVa1UxM2Xg&sig2=hW0rnWvVP75XDMBWv26FMw


clear info on a short power point

Thanks for this. Helps tons.

mrs. dobbs
02-26-14, 12:12 PM
And yet, reading it I have a lump in my throat... a sadness, apology and panic. All that I feared about myself and hid from... all the deeply suspected yet consciously denied reasons I developed avoidant habits, hypervigilance, made myself scarce, played 'cool loner' and didn't get fully invested in friends... appear to be true.

daveddd
03-05-14, 07:09 AM
detailed table of "sense of self " characteristics (one page down)




http://books.google.com/books?id=qFAgqxBsHB8C&pg=PA24&dq=borderline+sense+of+self+table&hl=en&sa=X&ei=XgQXU_bsBqm62AWi4YG4Bw&ved=0CFcQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=borderline%20sense%20of%20self%20table&f=false

Fortune
03-05-14, 08:20 AM
Now that is fascinating.

Fuzzy12
03-05-14, 09:11 AM
Thanks Dave, very interesting link. Very quick question. I've been reading a bit more in that book you've linked and there's this interesting case study about patients with BPD often changing modes of behaviour:

Let's consider a common situation. During a therapy session, Lucy begins to gradually reveal intensely painful feelings of loneliness and neediness. She has the demeanor of a hurt child. (She is in the vulnerable child mode). Then, there is a rather sudden shift, as she remarks "God, what's wrong with me? You must be sick of hearing this ****. I'm just so disgusted with myself." (Punitive, critical parent mode). Obviously she is the same person but the experience of herself changes significantly as she flips into another mode.

I do this. A lot. I pretty much use exactly the same wording as Lucy. My question, isn't this fairly normal? Isn't it common to have a need to share, give in to that need and then to suddenly feel extreme shame and guilt about burdening the other person, revealing too much about you or appearing vulnerable, needy and weak?????

daveddd
03-05-14, 07:38 PM
Thanks Dave, very interesting link. Very quick question. I've been reading a bit more in that book you've linked and there's this interesting case study about patients with BPD often changing modes of behaviour:



I do this. A lot. I pretty much use exactly the same wording as Lucy. My question, isn't this fairly normal? Isn't it common to have a need to share, give in to that need and then to suddenly feel extreme shame and guilt about burdening the other person, revealing too much about you or appearing vulnerable, needy and weak?????

i don't think thats very common

i experience it though

this would be an example of a fragmented self i believe

the modes are accompanied by specific emotional groups

it makes integration difficult

Nicksgonefishin
03-05-14, 07:53 PM
Cool chart... Really confirms my own poor sense of self.

I talked to my therapist about this a bit. I also had a pm discussion with another adhder on here. He talked about adhder's being old souls and the Indian belief of ADHD.. Found the article! http://www.thomhartmann.com/forum/2010/07/adhd-disordered-minds-or-old-souls

Also in my quests I have been listening to audio books kabit zinn and peck and the like. Anyways I have been trying to pin down "who I am" and am constantly conflicted inside. One of the audio books talked about the "self" as being the observer of thoughts... I really liked this defenition.

Daydreamin22
03-05-14, 08:07 PM
I vaguely remember this so it doesn't help except to try to come across it and realize it's something significant. But I remember mentally picturing a bar graph and two entities that develop in early childhood. At least one is reactive to something and it gets higher and lower than the other and neutral is the state when they are equal in height and it's a comfortable way to be. This was a development in early childhood. But, if it developed in a way that was unhealthy, the entity's are going up and down in an unstable state.
Could be wrong
That may be why bpd in a person occurs in situations and under circumstances that cause the bpd symptoms.

Fortune
03-05-14, 08:28 PM
An abstract graph may be why BPD occurs?

daveddd
03-06-14, 12:05 AM
:confused::confused::confused::confused:


whats that?

Fuzzy12
03-06-14, 12:57 AM
i don't think thats very common

i experience it though

this would be an example of a fragmented self i believe

the modes are accompanied by specific emotional groups

it makes integration difficult

So what would d normal people do? ??? :eek:

daveddd
03-06-14, 01:04 AM
the need to share is common

but the shame and guilt should not be

i think it would be more of a natural process of self regulation (barkleys recent book on EFs gets into the evolution of social regulation, its interesting)

also with a "well developed self" the person is ok with themselves and their emotions, positive or negative

Corina86
03-06-14, 04:33 AM
I do this. A lot. I pretty much use exactly the same wording as Lucy. My question, isn't this fairly normal? Isn't it common to have a need to share, give in to that need and then to suddenly feel extreme shame and guilt about burdening the other person, revealing too much about you or appearing vulnerable, needy and weak?????

I don't know if it's normal, but I've seen it in a couple of people whom I believe to be pretty sane: they say something, then they begin to feel guilty for being whiny, weak, for burdening me with their issues or for feeling things society says they shouldn't be feeling (like my mom admitting to not loving her grandchildren as much as she loves her children). Some express this guilt by being over thankful to me for listening to them, like I did them some big favor. It's not good, but it's normal if you have a history of being judged for expressing your own emotions, especially those of fear and vulnerability. Lots of people, especially men, feel such shame and guilt over this issue, they don't express themselves at all, even if they feel the need to do.

Daydreamin22
03-08-14, 05:38 AM
Emotions are also blocked by defense mechanisms, which get even stronger if there is lack of community support, for an abused person, anyway. However, emotions like betrayal cut to the core and do not take on a defense mechanism. You are extremely vulnerable and wounded as you continue on.

I'm not exaggerating, apparently vulnerability is very attractive to others. I worked as a delusional narcissistic kindergarten teacher's aide. I can tell you it is one of the worst jobs to aide a narcissist. I worked extremely hard and she got angry that I could do her job and didn't acknowledge the classroom makeover that I was blamed for. She taught everyone how to treat me.

Once set me up and for the second time acknowledged that she left me and the kids in the room as part of the plan when on the only day we had a deadline long story short I politely bewilder lye asked her why we has so many things going on and why she left.

She pretended that we didn't have three things and didn't know what I was talking bout. Then she tolde an untruth and I questioned her on the other part and Dear God this wrathfully monster stood over my desk filled with rage and let out two mighty roars.

I was not scared. Hair flew back and just like that she'd told teachers down the hall then got the principle. As typical I did not say a word but dat in front of her hoping she would suspect it.
That's nothing.

I was wounded and vulnerable. I connected with people through a look that was just inexplicable and people were there for met I guess. That's what it takes to show an emotionally wounded person

daveddd
03-08-14, 09:50 AM
I don't know if it's normal, but I've seen it in a couple of people whom I believe to be pretty sane: they say something, then they begin to feel guilty for being whiny, weak, for burdening me with their issues or for feeling things society says they shouldn't be feeling (like my mom admitting to not loving her grandchildren as much as she loves her children). Some express this guilt by being over thankful to me for listening to them, like I did them some big favor. It's not good, but it's normal if you have a history of being judged for expressing your own emotions, especially those of fear and vulnerability. Lots of people, especially men, feel such shame and guilt over this issue, they don't express themselves at all, even if they feel the need to do.

good points

reminds me to remember a lot (not all) of psychological problems are extremes of normal human behavior

extreme not abnormal

Daydreamin22
03-08-14, 08:08 PM
An abstract graph may be why BPD occurs?

Ummm, that post pretty much needed a "check and balance..." I realize I know one fact ab BPD and that's that a pd comes on in certain situations and it's not a disease it whatever. I started reading a paper on it on a website, or maybe it was google books.

Haha, anyway... I thought stability had to do with the "barograph"

Fortune
03-08-14, 09:13 PM
Ummm, that post pretty much needed a "check and balance..." I realize I know one fact ab BPD and that's that a pd comes on in certain situations and it's not a disease it whatever. I started reading a paper on it on a website, or maybe it was google books.

Haha, anyway... I thought stability had to do with the "barograph"

Heh, sorry. I just couldn't work out what you meant by the comment. :)

Daydreamin22
03-08-14, 09:20 PM
I was not scared. Hair flew back and just like that she'd told teachers down the hall then got the principle. As typical I did not say a word but dat in front of her hoping she would suspect it.
That's nothing.


I accidentally said that wrong. I would get called out by the principal who was working through this with me both of us focused on what I needed to do based on how I was feeling in the world as a whole and not my teacher and her class bc they were normal. So anyway I sat there in front of her not saying anything hoping she would know. That's common reaction and a medical condition.