View Full Version : Causes of ADHD-Dizfriz's thoughts


Dizfriz
07-22-13, 12:35 PM
Peripheral, I wrote a response to a post directed to me in the What is Stress thread but decided to tackle it another way. I am going to say what I feel Mate is saying, why I react to him as I do and what I feel causes ADHD.

Here is what I feel Mate is saying. I am putting it into my own words to make my understanding as clear as I can. If you disagree, please show me where and why.

I feel Mate is saying that we live in a dysfunctional society that causes stress. The parent, under that stress, has difficulties attuning to the child properly resulting in a problem with attachment. That attachment problem is what causes ADHD.

This the quote that I keep referring to that I feel accurately represents Mates ideas on the cause of ADHD

I believe that ADD originates in stresses that affect the mothering parent's emotional interactions with the infant. They cause the disrupted electrical and chemical circuitry of ADHD. Attachment and attunement, two crucial aspects of the infant-parent relationship, are the determining factors. ScatteredI have read his book Scattered and have read the Goodman interview. I have read a number of reviews and articles describing Mate's position on his site and others. I feel this quote accurately describes Mate's position and my reading of it. If you can show I am wrong or that Mate has changed his position, please do. As I have said before, I like to be shown wrong because it means I have learned something.

In discussion:

Both Barkley and I agree that there is no evidence that a parent can do something behaviorally such as bad parenting, too much TV, not spanking or any other behavioral factor can cause ADHD in a child. The evidence simply does not support the conclusion that a parent or anyone else can cause the child to be ADHD by how the child is treated.

So why do I keep going to this issue you have asked? It is because I have seen a good bit of, sometimes severe, guilt on the part of a parent that somehow she (or he) did something that caused her child's ADHD.

This guilt is not a good thing and gets in the way of helping the ADHD child. I feel that this guilt is very unnecessary and unwarranted and to make the statement that stress caused lack of proper attunment contributes to causing ADHD I feel is harmful, can do harm. I feel strongly that it puts responsibility squarely on the parent for causing the child's ADHD by not properly attuning to the child for whatever reason. I can see no reason why this terrible burden of guilt should be put on a parent. If there is good evidence for this then it is a different thing but there is not.

Considering all of this, I feel an ethical obligation to challenge statements that ADHD is, in anyway, caused by parenting, attunment or attachment or any other behavioral factor.

It is this same that I feel the same ethical obligation to challenge statements that giving stimulant medication is "drugging" the child. The same with statements that giving the child stimulants is equivalent to giving cocaine. The same for statements that ADHD is caused by bad parenting, too much TV, not enough spankings, diet and any of the other so called causes advocated so often by so many. It is one of the many battles we have to fight to get ADHD accepted as a real, often serious disorder.

As to what I see as the cause(s) of ADHD based on current information:

It appears ADHD is primarily a genetic neurobiological disorder. By that most(if not all) of the basis for the disorder is present at birth. There are many factors that can influence this including exposure to toxic substances, low birth weigh, damage to the brain (physical trauma). This seems to be all done prenatally or at birth (trauma, low birth weight and others.)

What I mean by primarily genetic is that more than 50% of the occurrence of ADHD can be explained by genetics. The current estimate is somewhere in the spread of 60-80% genetic.

That leaves a lot of room for other causative factors but none, as far as I know, are results of childhood experiences.

I thought presenting why I respond to Mate as I do might be beneficial to the ongoing conversation on his ideas. I hope it clears up things a little or at least I hope so.

Dizfriz

Fraser_0762
07-22-13, 12:49 PM
It's often said that ADHD is "genetic". But surely children will take on the behavioral traits of their parents anyway, regardless of whether they're bad or good traits?

So if a child has a parent with ADHD, is it not possible that the child is adapting to the behaviors of their parent, but without actually having ADHD themselves?

Children learn by what they see. So if they see their guardian behaving in an odd way, they'd assume that it's the normal way for people to behave, resulting in the same behavioral patterns to their guardian/parent.

I'm just throwing this out there to offer an alternative point of view.

someothertime
07-22-13, 01:42 PM
Well, my mother was warm to my brother and cold to me if that helps...

Dizfriz
07-22-13, 03:56 PM
It's often said that ADHD is "genetic". But surely children will take on the behavioral traits of their parents anyway, regardless of whether they're bad or good traits?

So if a child has a parent with ADHD, is it not possible that the child is adapting to the behaviors of their parent, but without actually having ADHD themselves?

Children learn by what they see. So if they see their guardian behaving in an odd way, they'd assume that it's the normal way for people to behave, resulting in the same behavioral patterns to their guardian/parent.

I'm just throwing this out there to offer an alternative point of view.

To some degree you are right. That is part of the job of a good assessment, to differentiate learned behavior from ADHD itself. Not always easy, if fact sometimes quite difficult.

Dizfriz

Fraser_0762
07-22-13, 04:31 PM
But as we already know, there is no clear cut way to know for sure if a person actually has ADHD or not.

A child being misdiagnosed with ADHD due to behavioral patterns picked up from their guardians (but not genetically) is a common occurrence I would suspect.

Addersaurus
07-22-13, 04:35 PM
So you do not think that the environment in which a child grows up can affect a childs mental development or whether they go on to develop a mental disorder or not?

Is this reasoning more to do with the guilt this might cause being counterproductive. (although this guilt you refer to is largely irrational given the exposures of the parent that are out of their control and those to the child that are out of the parents knowledge/control)

It is those exposures that are closer to the source of "blame", as I believe is Dr Mate's view, with his additional perspective having had first hand experience of this himself and with his children.

Dizfriz
07-22-13, 04:45 PM
But as we already know, there is no clear cut way to know for sure if a person actually has ADHD or not. This is true. Currently diagnosing ADHD is a clinical judgement call.

A child being misdiagnosed with ADHD due to behavioral patterns picked up from their guardians (but not genetically) is a common occurrence I would suspect. At least not uncommon. Good clinicians can sort this out in *most* cases but not all and some will slip through the diagnostic cracks.

With clinicians who are not all that good, all bets are off.

Dizfriz

Fraser_0762
07-22-13, 04:53 PM
This is true. Currently diagnosing ADHD is a clinical judgement call.

At least not uncommon. Good clinicians can sort this out in *most* cases but not all and some will slip through the diagnostic cracks.

With clinicians who are not all that good, all bets are off.

Dizfriz

You say in "most" cases. But how can you be sure of this? As there is currently no way of measuring such a statistic.

How does a good clinician differentiate between true ADHD and ADHD mimicking behaviours picked up from one's guardian?

What methods can be used in order to detect whether a true chemical imbalance is present or not?

janiew
07-22-13, 04:55 PM
FDA approved brainwave test for children.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/brainwave-test-adhd-patients-profit/story?id=19686712

Barkley says less than five year for DNA testing.

Guess we will see.

Fraser_0762
07-22-13, 05:06 PM
FDA approved brainwave test for children.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/brainwave-test-adhd-patients-profit/story?id=19686712

Barkley says less than five year for DNA testing.

Guess we will see.

I still don't see how this is going to work. A persons brain wave patterns change drastically depending on the situation they are in.

Taking a snap shot of a persons current brain wave pattern will not be a diagnostic tool for a life time of neurological impairments.

Not to mention that a young childs brain is still in the critical development stages.

Fortune
07-22-13, 05:06 PM
It's often said that ADHD is "genetic". But surely children will take on the behavioral traits of their parents anyway, regardless of whether they're bad or good traits?

This is addressed with twin and adoption studies, which shows that ADHD behaviors are consistently more associated with biological parents' behaviors than with adopted parents' behaviors, and that identical twins are more likely to share an ADHD diagnosis than fraternal twins.

Fortune
07-22-13, 05:11 PM
So you do not think that the environment in which a child grows up can affect a childs mental development or whether they go on to develop a mental disorder or not?

You mean like depression, anxiety, and PTSD? Of course the environment impacts whether a child can develop mental disorders, but not all mental disorders.

It is those exposures that are closer to the source of "blame", as I believe is Dr Mate's view, with his additional perspective having had first hand experience of this himself and with his children.

Dr. Mate has ADHD and I believe his children have ADHD, but that supports the heritable aspect, and not necessarily the "stress/environment" aspect.

The environment will impact a child's development, so a nonsupportive environment can be significantly worse for a child with any neurodevelopmental disorder, and result in greater impairment, reduced ability to cope, and greater likelihood of comorbids.

Addersaurus
07-22-13, 05:14 PM
Correlation is not causation. There are so many uncontrolled variables involved in twin adoption studies along with prenatal influences.

Addersaurus
07-22-13, 05:18 PM
Heritability is a vague term at best.

The question is what behaviours are "innate" (and to what extent "innate" can be influenced) and what are learned.

Fraser_0762
07-22-13, 05:18 PM
This is addressed with twin and adoption studies, which shows that ADHD behaviors are consistently more associated with biological parents' behaviors than with adopted parents' behaviors, and that identical twins are more likely to share an ADHD diagnosis than fraternal twins.

How in depth are these studies?

Are the twins split apart at a young enough age in order to stamp out the possibility of them picking up behavioral traits from a parent before adoption?

When discussing studies, I think it's important to provide as much in-depth information on the study as possible.

As there can easily be factors that result in flawed statistics.

Fortune
07-22-13, 05:32 PM
Correlation is not causation. There are so many uncontrolled variables involved in twin adoption studies along with prenatal influences.

Name some of those uncontrolled variables, and explain how doing such a study over a large enough population to be statistically significant doesn't address such influences.

Also, "correlation is not causation" is not a refutation. It's a good point to make because often correlation is not causation. However, sometimes correlation is causation, and this is one of the reasons for such research - to establish whether there is causation along with the correlation.

Heritability is a vague term at best. The question is what behaviours are inate (and to what extent "inate" can be influenced") and what are learned.

Here's a primer. It's not vague at all:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritability

How in depth are these studies?

Are the twins split apart at a young enough age in order to stamp out the possibility of them picking up behavioral traits from a parent before adoption?

The twins don't have to be because identical twins are compared to fraternal twins, and overall, identical twins are more likely to share an ADHD diagnosis than fraternal twins, which indicates a likelihood

Prior to you making this argument, I have never seen the proposition that ADHD may be caused by children imitating parental behavior. I am certain that this is a consideration that professional researchers and clinicians have taken into account, but it doesn't seem to be a possibility that is taken seriously in terms of ADHD's etiology.

When discussing studies, I think it's important to provide as much in-depth information on the study as possible.

As there can easily be factors that result in flawed statistics.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0890856709664984
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16962074
http://www.karger.com/ProdukteDB/Katalogteile/isbn3_8055/_92/_37/KIMH176_02.pdf
http://europepmc.org/abstract/MED/9246671/reload=0;jsessionid=sGdLoKWJAf93mcyfsNo8.18
http://psychcentral.com/lib/the-genetics-of-adhd/0003789
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11068899

Just a few links that discuss this.

Fraser_0762
07-22-13, 05:53 PM
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0890856709664984
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16962074
http://www.karger.com/ProdukteDB/Katalogteile/isbn3_8055/_92/_37/KIMH176_02.pdf
http://europepmc.org/abstract/MED/9246671/reload=0;jsessionid=sGdLoKWJAf93mcyfsNo8.18
http://psychcentral.com/lib/the-genetics-of-adhd/0003789
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11068899

Just a few links that discuss this.

The couple of links in there that actually show any statistical data, don't really back up your point.

They do however back up my point that children are more likely to be "diagnosed" with ADHD, if there parents are.

Being "diagnosed" with ADHD and "having" ADHD, isn't the same thing.

Addersaurus
07-22-13, 05:56 PM
Name some of those uncontrolled variables Epigenetic heritability

Epigenetic influence/interactions from the biological parent prenatally will affect the results of such twin studies and cannot be controlled.

Here's a primer. It's not vague at all:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritability

Not as clear cut as you might like to believe. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_heritability_problem

Lunacie
07-22-13, 06:03 PM
It's often said that ADHD is "genetic". But surely children will take on the behavioral traits of their parents anyway, regardless of whether they're bad or good traits?

So if a child has a parent with ADHD, is it not possible that the child is adapting to the behaviors of their parent, but without actually having ADHD themselves?

Children learn by what they see. So if they see their guardian behaving in an odd way, they'd assume that it's the normal way for people to behave, resulting in the same behavioral patterns to their guardian/parent.

I'm just throwing this out there to offer an alternative point of view.

That would be logical if every child born to the parent who has ADHD shows
the same behaviors, but they don't. Just one child out of several may show
the traits of ADHD, sometimes 3 out of 4 will. It's entirely too random to
call it learned behavior, in my opinion.

Fortune
07-22-13, 06:22 PM
The couple of links in there that actually show any statistical data, don't really back up your point.

They do however back up my point that children are more likely to be "diagnosed" with ADHD, if there parents are.

Being "diagnosed" with ADHD and "having" ADHD, isn't the same thing.

I see you did not read them very closely, then. You might have noticed that adopted children are more likely to be diagnosed with ADHD if their biological parents are, which does not actually support your contention at all. Nor does the fact that identical twins are more likely than fraternal twins or siblings to share an ADHD diagnosis. Read what I linked more closely - not just for statistics, but for information.

Here's the problem with your argument: You have provided a supposition, you have provided no evidence for that supposition, just opinion. You now want everyone to prove you wrong. That's not how it works: You're making the claims, provide some evidence for them. Actual evidence, that shows actual causation, not just a weak correlation that is not supported in any of the links I provided you. Contentious claims require evidence. At this point, ADHD's heritability is not contentious to anyone who keeps up with the research.

Another point not in your favor, incidentally, is that ADHD in adults does not look identical to ADHD in children.

Addersaurus
07-22-13, 06:24 PM
That is why it is a combination of genetics and environment. Genetics being risk factors/innate traits with the environment honing behaviors and behavioral phenotype.

It is like a chemical reaction you need both components for the desired reaction, certain genetics exposed to certain environments leads to certain disorders. Simples!

Fortune
07-22-13, 07:47 PM
Should be no big deal to find the studies that link ADHD to environmental causes. I look forward to reading them.

Fortune
07-22-13, 08:04 PM
Epigenetic heritability

Epigenetic influence/interactions from the biological parent prenatally will affect the results of such twin studies and cannot be controlled.

Link something that explains this in detail, if you cannot explain it yourself. At the very least, offer some information as to how this supposedly confounds the twin studies.

Also, you are aware that epigenetics are still genetic, right? If the epigenetics aren't there to be activated, then naturally they won't activate.

I have seen months of these discussions here in which validated, empirical research is dismissed without much empirical reason.

Not as clear cut as you might like to believe. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_heritability_problem

That says that individual genes cannot account for much of the heritability of diseases, and offers one possible model to account for it:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2710163/

It does not refute heritability as a testable, empirical concept. It simply questions the mechanisms through which it operates.

ADHD is one of the most highly heritable disorders in the DSM. I have yet to see a single objection that sufficiently counters that known, empirical, fact in any of these discussions. Instead of trying to undermine the notion of heritability or proposing ideas of what might be involved instead, find the research that supports your arguments and present it.

It's not hard to find stuff. Here is an entire paper by Dr. Jay Joseph that criticizes twin studies:

http://femhc.org/portals/2/publications/childrenssummit2012/adhd/not_in_their_genes.pdf

Easy to find. And the writer wrote an entire book that you may find interesting. It's called The Gene Illusion. His second book is The Missing Gene: Psychiatry, Heredity, and the Fruitless Search for Genes.

And here is a response to Dr. Joseph's writings:

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/article.aspx?articleID=177845

daveddd
07-22-13, 08:04 PM
i understanding i have of ADHD and the difference of learned behaviors is emotional arousal and regulation

it was either written or quoted by barkley

the true ADHD (behavioral inhibition) involves emotional over arousal and the inability to self regulate them

it plays a major (if not the most important role) in our "behaviors"

there are i guess a few ways to measure this, and new ones are being worked on


one thing is, im not sure this takes place until early adolescents due to biological changes

clear distinctions have been seen in the amygdala , along with a correction by methylphenidate based drugs

Addersaurus
07-22-13, 08:09 PM
There is no alternative Fortune, unless you believe in magic that is... some of us however believe in causality.

I am about to sleep and cba to go trawling through papers right now just a quick google

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/04/070410190421.htm (http://www.ip-anonymous.com/browse.php?u=Oi8vYWRkZm9ydW1zLmNvbS9mb3J1bXMvJnF1b 3Q7aHR0cDovL3d3dy5pcC1hbm9ueW1vdXMuY29tL2Jyb3dzZS5 waHA%2FdT1PaTh2WVdSa1ptOXlkVzF6TG1OdmJTOW1iM0oxYlh NdkpuRjFiM1E3YUhSMGNEb3ZMM2QzZHk1cGNDMWhibTl1ZVcxd mRYTXVZMjl0TDJKeWIzZHpaUzV3YUhBJTJGZFQxUGFUaDJXVmR TYTFwdE9YbGtWekY2VEcxT2RtSlRPVzFpTTBveFlsaE5ka3B1U mpGaU0xRTNZVWhTTUdORWIzWk1NMlF6WkhrMWNHTkRNV2hpYlR sMVpWY3hkbVJZVFhWWk1qbDBUREpLZVdJelpIcGFVelYzWVVoQ kpUSkdaRlF4VUdGVWFESlhWbVJUWVRGd2RFOVliR3RXZWtZMlZ FY3hUMlJ0U2xSUFZ6RnBUVEJ2ZUZsc2FFNWthM0IxVW1wR2FVM HhSVE5aVldoVFRVZE9SV0l6V2sxTk1sRjZXa2hyTVdWc2EzbGl SM2hwWWxVMWMxZHJaRWRqUjBwSllUTldXazFxYkRCVVJFNUxZa 2RLU0ZadGFHcE5iRm8yVkVod1NtUXdNVVZaTTFwT1VrWkdNbFJ WVW1wa01EVkZVbGhrVGxaSGRETlVhMUpLWlVWNGRHRkVRbWxWT VhBMFdrWmpOVTFGT1ROS1ZFNUZTbFJPUlVwdFJuUmpSSFJvWWx oQk4xbHFNREZLYmtZeFlqTlJOeVpoYlhBN1lXMXdPMkk5TlNae GRXOTBPdyUzRCUzRCZhbXA7YW1wO2I9NSZxdW90Ow%3D%3D&b=5)

Just to illustrate a point.

Fortune
07-22-13, 08:20 PM
There is no alternative Fortune, unless you believe in magic that is... some of us however believe in causality.

Sarcasm not necessary.

Also, genes by themselves can be causal. They do not require more of an environment than any gene has to express as they're going to express. Epigenetics is a bit of a different - and often misunderstood to the point of magic - story. Environmental issues can also cause mutations (for an extreme example, thalidomide), and strictly environmental issues can still cause problems (cerebral palsy, for example).

No one is proposing magic, but there are alternatives.

I am about to sleep and cba to go trawling through papers right now just a quick google

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/04/070410190421.htm

Right, this is something I am aware of and something I do believe is a factor. However, you can still have ADHD without smoking. It increases the risk, but I somehow suspect that the risk isn't there without the heritable component. I also suspect it's not so much a matter of activating epigenetics as it is causing developmental issues by introducing nicotine and other chemicals to the fetus' system. These issues may be a form of mild brain injury or slowed development that pushes a child who might be a bit hyper or inattentive into being diagnosable with ADHD.

This is also why I have in the past agreed that environment plays a role, but I do not believe that environment provides a primary causative factor in developing ADHD. I believe it is quite influential in the development trajectory for any child, with or without any neurodevelopmental disorder, but that isn't the same as causing it to be there in the first place.

Also, thank you for posting the link.

daveddd
07-22-13, 10:06 PM
I still don't see how this is going to work. A persons brain wave patterns change drastically depending on the situation they are in.

Taking a snap shot of a persons current brain wave pattern will not be a diagnostic tool for a life time of neurological impairments.

Not to mention that a young childs brain is still in the critical development stages.

most things can be controlled for

example
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3563110/

mildadhd
07-23-13, 12:14 AM
I am going to say what I feel Mate is saying, why I react to him as I do and what I feel causes ADHD. -(quote by Dizfriz from OP)

Dizfriz,

How do you rule out emotions in the way you "feel"?


Peripheral



Side question: What post of mine are you replying to in the OP?





i!!

mildadhd
07-23-13, 12:24 AM
I am going to say what I feel Mate is saying, why I react to him as I do and what I feel causes ADHD. -(quote by Dizfriz from OP)

Dizfriz,

How do you rule out emotion in the way you "react"?

Peripheral




i!i

mildadhd
07-23-13, 12:29 AM
I am going to say what I feel Mate is saying, why I react to him as I do and what I feel causes ADHD. -(quote by Dizfriz from OP)


Dizfriz,

Infants surely feel (emotion) after birth.

But infants cannot "say" (executive) the word "feel" after birth.

Right?


Peripheral


i!i

anonymouslyadd
07-23-13, 01:58 AM
Peripheral, I wrote a response to a post directed to me in the What is Stress thread but decided to tackle it another way. I am going to say what I feel Mate is saying, why I react to him as I do and what I feel causes ADHD.

Here is what I feel Mate is saying. I am putting it into my own words to make my understanding as clear as I can. If you disagree, please show me where and why.

I feel Mate is saying that we live in a dysfunctional society that causes stress. The parent, under that stress, has difficulties attuning to the child properly resulting in a problem with attachment. That attachment problem is what causes ADHD.

This the quote that I keep referring to that I feel accurately represents Mates ideas on the cause of ADHD

I have read his book Scattered and have read the Goodman interview. I have read a number of reviews and articles describing Mate's position on his site and others. I feel this quote accurately describes Mate's position and my reading of it. If you can show I am wrong or that Mate has changed his position, please do. As I have said before, I like to be shown wrong because it means I have learned something.
Dizfriz
But, Dizfriz, doesn't science have to occur before claims like Mate's are taken seriously.:p:giggle:

Addersaurus
07-23-13, 05:35 AM
Imo as soon as you start asking other people to take your interpretation of what someone else says, or start relying more on the reviews written by people with their own agendas over the original text then you are treading on thin ice.

I feel Mate is saying that we live in a dysfunctional society that causes stress. The parent, under that stress, has difficulties attuning to the child properly resulting in a problem with attachment.

The quote speaks for itself. Even your interpretation can be understood in a number of ways, if people wish to interpret it in the way you did then they are free to. Just as people can interpret it in a way that is dissimilar and puts more emphasis on the overall parental environment. This is nothing more than another take on those that wish to lay the blame squarely on the shoulders of genetics independant of environmental influence, a stance that just does not hold water, logically or scientifically vs those like Mate who believe there to be an interplay between environmental and genetic factors.

Dizfriz
07-23-13, 06:33 AM
Good questions, I will try to address them the best I can.

You say in "most" cases. But how can you be sure of this? As there is currently no way of measuring such a statistic. One of the research areas in developing new issues of the DSM is to explore how consistent clinicians are in diagnosis. It turns out that clinical judgement is very reasonably consistent. I have seen other research showing similar findings.

How does a good clinician differentiate between true ADHD and ADHD mimicking behaviors picked up from one's guardian? This is part of taking a careful family history and observing both caregivers and child. If we see a family history of ADHD, it makes the presence of the disorder more likely. Also when one observes the family and child, the clinician can see similarities and differences in behavior patters. If the behavior patterns of the child are not similar in the relevant areas to the child's then learned behavior patterns are not as likely a significant factor. Keep in mind that we are looking at symptom areas relevant to diagnosis of ADHD which makes things a little easier.

If you have home environments that are very chaotic, it can be sometimes difficult to separate the child's from the parents. I saw one case where the family was so disorganized and in a constant state of chaos that it was almost impossible to separate the child's behavior patterns from the family's and the child had to be referred out to a child Psychiatrist for another opinion.

What methods can be used in order to detect whether a true chemical imbalance is present or not? Right now we have none. This is true however for most or all DSM disorders. Most if not all of the DSM diagnosis is based on clinical judgement and not tests.

As far as I know, there are no tests that are considered as valid for primary diagnosis for most if not all of the DSM disorder. Barkley said in one of his workshops that this was true for all. I can only report of most since have not researched all of them

Good questions, hope I helped a little.

Dizfriz

Dizfriz
07-23-13, 06:37 AM
I still don't see how this is going to work. A persons brain wave patterns change drastically depending on the situation they are in.

Taking a snap shot of a persons current brain wave pattern will not be a diagnostic tool for a life time of neurological impairments.

Not to mention that a young childs brain is still in the critical development stages.
Right now, the most promising area of developing a valid tool for primary diagnosis of ADHD in children is in EEG studies which gives an indication of their value.

They are not there yet but some of them have shown some real potential.

Dizfriz

Dizfriz
07-23-13, 06:44 AM
In reference to twin studies:

How in depth are these studies?

Are the twins split apart at a young enough age in order to stamp out the possibility of them picking up behavioral traits from a parent before adoption?

When discussing studies, I think it's important to provide as much in-depth information on the study as possible.

As there can easily be factors that result in flawed statistics.



The twin studies are far to complex to go into in any detail in a forum format.

There is a nice article on Wiki on this subject.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_study

It might address some of your very good questions.

Dizfriz

SB_UK
07-23-13, 06:57 AM
What is adhd ?
Evolution selects for survival advantage

What do we actually need ?
Food

So - evolution might select for a more efficient metabolism ?
See ketogenic diet (the state of starvation) (considered currently in a Barliman thread)

However - is food all we need ?
No - physical stress (lack of food) will result in death, but more importantly to survival (in man) is living life to a fixed moral scheme in a society which operates to a fixed moral scheme.

And how'd evolution select for a 'type' which tends towards fixed innate morality/moral society ?
See fundamental repeating logical unit of mind argument in Barliman's thread.

So ... ... which of these two is it (underlying ADHD) ?
Is it a tendency towards morality or a tendency towards ketogenic existence ?

It's a tendency towards morality.

Human beings (nonADDer and ADDer alike) are supposed to be living a ketosis lifestyle (we've enough data to know that high (partic.) animal protein / carbs kill us).
Also - human beings - nonADDer and ADDer alike - are able to attain wisdom.

All that underlies ADHD is (and very simply) - a 'fast-track' to wisdom.

-*-

So - the disorder element of ADHD - is simply a stress reaction.

-*-

Presumbly parental stress (from the fast-track to wisdom) - and being forced to do immoral things within an immoral society ... ... results in 'stress' ... results in stress exposure to child (eg in gestation)
- produces 'changes' in the child (we know from the 'Dutch hunger winter' study that parental stress alters child)

- that that 'stressed' child then becomes even more stressed through attachment/attunement failure.
[Giving rise to more disorder element of ADHD]

- that the 'stressed' child then becomes even more stressed through military teaching procedures which the ADDer's mind has no interest in - the mind is interested - just not in being filled by another person - the ADDer needs to fill their own mind themselves.

- that the 'stressed' child grows into a 'stressed' adult - because of the stresses (almost unsurmountable) placed on us by money.

Now - the point has been raised - why do many adults grow out of ADHD ?
I think the answer's that we get into a repetitive workplace environment where money comes in and we can switch our mind off.

So - effective stress reduction - no disorder.
However - the ADHD returns if the ADDer stops to think.

Addersaurus
07-23-13, 07:20 AM
However - the ADHD returns if the ADDer stops to think

Midlife crisis?

~boots~
07-23-13, 07:42 AM
Sausages Sausages Sausages ;-)
How I have missed you
xx
<3

~boots~
07-23-13, 07:44 AM
What is adhd ?
Evolution selects for survival advantage

What do we actually need ?
Food

So - evolution might select for a more efficient metabolism ?
See ketogenic diet (the state of starvation) (considered currently in a Barliman thread)

However - is food all we need ?
No - physical stress (lack of food) will result in death, but more importantly to survival (in man) is living life to a fixed moral scheme in a society which operates to a fixed moral scheme.

And how'd evolution select for a 'type' which tends towards fixed innate morality/moral society ?
See fundamental repeating logical unit of mind argument in Barliman's thread.

So ... ... which of these two is it (underlying ADHD) ?
Is it a tendency towards morality or a tendency towards ketogenic existence ?

It's a tendency towards morality.

Human beings (nonADDer and ADDer alike) are supposed to be living a ketosis lifestyle (we've enough data to know that high (partic.) animal protein / carbs kill us).
Also - human beings - nonADDer and ADDer alike - are able to attain wisdom.

All that underlies ADHD is (and very simply) - a 'fast-track' to wisdom.

-*-

So - the disorder element of ADHD - is simply a stress reaction.

-*-

Presumbly parental stress (from the fast-track to wisdom) - and being forced to do immoral things within an immoral society ... ... results in 'stress' ... results in stress exposure to child (eg in gestation)
- produces 'changes' in the child (we know from the 'Dutch hunger winter' study that parental stress alters child)

- that that 'stressed' child then becomes even more stressed through attachment/attunement failure.
[Giving rise to more disorder element of ADHD]

- that the 'stressed' child then becomes even more stressed through military teaching procedures which the ADDer's mind has no interest in - the mind is interested - just not in being filled by another person - the ADDer needs to fill their own mind themselves.

- that the 'stressed' child grows into a 'stressed' adult - because of the stresses (almost unsurmountable) placed on us by money.

Now - the point has been raised - why do many adults grow out of ADHD ?
I think the answer's that we get into a repetitive workplace environment where money comes in and we can switch our mind off.

So - effective stress reduction - no disorder.
However - the ADHD returns if the ADDer stops to think.

Oh I know ;-))

~boots~
07-23-13, 07:45 AM
ps..I never grew out of it..I just learnt how to manage it ;-)

SB_UK
07-23-13, 08:32 AM
ps..I never grew out of it..I just learnt how to manage it ;-)

The mind is with us for good (attention difference ness).
The stress (attention difference disorder), however - well - we can evade stress in life on auto-pilot
- though there are times when you've gotta' come down.

ADDer disorder can be permanently eliminated though by generating a fair society though, alongside a mind (of wisdom)

- though a mind without wisdom (not globally logically internally consistent) isn't a mind at all.

Addersaurus
07-23-13, 09:29 AM
What it comes down to is what is a disorder?

Homosexuality used to be clinically defined as a disorder.

Anything that deviates from what the powers that be deem to be "right behavior" can become defined as disorder whether or not they are a danger to others.

In fact ironically those that are the greatest dangers to humanity are most often not defined as disordered at all, but successful. Due to being so successful within a sick environment, to become well adapted to such an environment means they will become successful businessmen etc. to be admired and idolised.

So what can it mean to be disordered to a sick environment...

You do not wish to sit still in class and pay attention to things that are of no interst you, you are disordered.

You wish to learn on your own terms, you are disordered.

You wish to be more active and not have to sit in confined areas for long periods, you are disordered.

You get stressed in such environments causing you to be more impulsive, you are disorded.

You struggle to deal with unnecessary sensory overload you are disordered.

etc. etc.

*prays for a rep*

SB_UK
07-23-13, 09:40 AM
Midlife crisis?

pair-bond formation timed to the female menopause


- so mid-life crisis ... .. very likely!

meadd823
07-23-13, 03:17 PM
Moderator Note

Mean while back at the topic . . . .which has been copied and pasted below.

Peripheral, I wrote a response to a post directed to me in the What is Stress thread but decided to tackle it another way. I am going to say what I feel Mate is saying, why I react to him as I do and what I feel causes ADHD.

Here is what I feel Mate is saying. I am putting it into my own words to make my understanding as clear as I can. If you disagree, please show me where and why.

I feel Mate is saying that we live in a dysfunctional society that causes stress. The parent, under that stress, has difficulties attuning to the child properly resulting in a problem with attachment. That attachment problem is what causes ADHD.

This the quote that I keep referring to that I feel accurately represents Mates ideas on the cause of ADHD

I have read his book Scattered and have read the Goodman interview. I have read a number of reviews and articles describing Mate's position on his site and others. I feel this quote accurately describes Mate's position and my reading of it. If you can show I am wrong or that Mate has changed his position, please do. As I have said before, I like to be shown wrong because it means I have learned something.

In discussion:

Both Barkley and I agree that there is no evidence that a parent can do something behaviorally such as bad parenting, too much TV, not spanking or any other behavioral factor can cause ADHD in a child. The evidence simply does not support the conclusion that a parent or anyone else can cause the child to be ADHD by how the child is treated.

So why do I keep going to this issue you have asked? It is because I have seen a good bit of, sometimes severe, guilt on the part of a parent that somehow she (or he) did something that caused her child's ADHD.

This guilt is not a good thing and gets in the way of helping the ADHD child. I feel that this guilt is very unnecessary and unwarranted and to make the statement that stress caused lack of proper attunment contributes to causing ADHD I feel is harmful, can do harm. I feel strongly that it puts responsibility squarely on the parent for causing the child's ADHD by not properly attuning to the child for whatever reason. I can see no reason why this terrible burden of guilt should be put on a parent. If there is good evidence for this then it is a different thing but there is not.

Considering all of this, I feel an ethical obligation to challenge statements that ADHD is, in anyway, caused by parenting, attunment or attachment or any other behavioral factor.

It is this same that I feel the same ethical obligation to challenge statements that giving stimulant medication is "drugging" the child. The same with statements that giving the child stimulants is equivalent to giving cocaine. The same for statements that ADHD is caused by bad parenting, too much TV, not enough spankings, diet and any of the other so called causes advocated so often by so many. It is one of the many battles we have to fight to get ADHD accepted as a real, often serious disorder.

As to what I see as the cause(s) of ADHD based on current information:

It appears ADHD is primarily a genetic neurobiological disorder. By that most(if not all) of the basis for the disorder is present at birth. There are many factors that can influence this including exposure to toxic substances, low birth weigh, damage to the brain (physical trauma). This seems to be all done prenatally or at birth (trauma, low birth weight and others.)

What I mean by primarily genetic is that more than 50% of the occurrence of ADHD can be explained by genetics. The current estimate is somewhere in the spread of 60-80% genetic.

That leaves a lot of room for other causative factors but none, as far as I know, are results of childhood experiences.

I thought presenting why I respond to Mate as I do might be beneficial to the ongoing conversation on his ideas. I hope it clears up things a little or at least I hope so.

Dizfriz


Can we please get back on the original topic. . . . .

Thanks

SB_UK
07-23-13, 03:22 PM
I feel Mate is saying that we live in a dysfunctional society that causes stress.The disorder component of ADHD is a 'stress' response.

The only surefire way of preventing a 'stress' response is through generation of a functional (fair) society,

By the medical definition of ADHD (ie no disorder no ADHD)
- this is word perfect:"I feel Mate is saying that we live in a dysfunctional society that causes stress."

So - fair society - no money - no social hierarchy - no social division - everybody working collaboratively, for personal reward in context of species wellbeing (if at all)
- there's no onus on anybody other than to 'do no harm' - which is consistent with chilling out 24-7 for a life-time

... ... and there'll be no context which'll lead to stress - to disorder component of ADHD.

-*-

So - an 'environmental' solution to ADHD - no 'genetic' model need be considered
- though we've an inherited pattern to attentional difference ADHD - though the inheritance is through a structure of mind rather than a genomic re-arrangement ... ...
- memomic and not genomic re-arrangement ... ... but of course - science (materialist) doesn't believe that the mind exists !
with 'stress' in dysfunctional society triggering attentional difference into disorder.

So - what's special about ADDers ?
In adulthood with mind, we've no capacity not to see the truth.
In childhood (we've a structure of mind which takes longer to build better cf 3 year dev. delay) - we unsurprisingly! don't keep up in an educational system which is remarkably inflexible and unforgiving to delays.

Further and further behind ADDers trail, until we/they 're left behind.

SB_UK
07-23-13, 03:42 PM
The sad part is that supposedly scientists haven't cottoned onto the idea that nobody has an idea of the 'physical' mechanism by which the human mind (emergence of Homo sapiens sapiens) occurred.

How did 'something' happen - to generate 'something' unprecedented - the human mind with capacity to model reality.

Animals don't build an explanatory model of reality.
Animals can't see into the future.

Mind you - human beings aren't particularly good at building an explanatory model of reality - they're more interested in being seen to be right than being right.
And also - with a TV program in the background which is describing how we're destroying the oceans, to a trend on the forum describing how we're destroying th land (in both cases - capacity for generating food)
- it appears as though human beings lack the capacity to put 1 + 1 together - and see that we're on the verge of killing ourselves off - all through the desire to eat ourselves (to death).

Eating ourselves to death references the primitive reward system.
With mind (wisdom) and pair-bonding - (the higher reward system) - the primitive reward system is overcome - and the individual is free to act in accordance with all of species wellbeing - the individual becomes (at last!) properly human.