View Full Version : Causes of ADD: Peripheral's thoughts


mildadhd
07-23-13, 11:50 AM
My reply to Dizfriz's opening post thread. (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1514138&postcount=1)

Dizfriz,

There are multiple factors causing ADD.


I recommend you reread Scattered,(and Research Notes), there is clearly facts that are missing in your interpretation.

In Scattered, Dr.Mate presents research from the best in the world, including Dr.Barkley.


You have a copy of Scattered, could you go to the Research Notes and tell which researchers/research you disagree with?

So the people reading your interpretation can get a better idea of which research you disagree with?



Dr.Mate clearly acknowledges the neurophysiological components of ADD,

such as genes and environment.


The goal of this thread is to acknowledge all the factors presented by Dr.Mate in Scattered.







(P.25) I believe that ADD can be better understood if we examine people's lives,

not only bits of DNA.

Heredity does make an important contribution, but far less than usually assumed.

At the same time, it would serve no purpose to set up false opposition of environment to genetic inheritance.

No split exists in nature, or in the mind of any serious scientist.

If in this book I emphasize environment, I do so to focus attention on an area that most books on the subject neglect and none explore in nearly enough detail.

Such neglect frequently leads to crippling deficiencies in what people are offered by way of treatment.



There are many biological events involving body and brain that are not directly programmed by heredity,

and so to say that ADD is not primarily genetic is not in any sense to deny its biological features--either those that are inherited or those that are acquired as a result of experience.

The genetic blueprints for the architecture and workings of the human brain develop in a process of interaction with the environment.

ADD does reflect biological malfunctions in certain brain centers, but many of its features--including the underlying biology itself--are also inextricably connected to a person's physical and emotional experiences in the world.




(P.28)What happens is that if certain genetic material meets a certain environment, ADD may result.

Without the genetic material, no ADD.

Without that environment, no ADD.

The formative environment is the family of orgin.



-Dr.Gabor Mate, Scattered




i!i

Dizfriz
07-23-13, 12:06 PM
My reply to Dizfriz's opening post thread.

Dizfriz,

There are multiple factors causing ADD.


I recommend you reread Scattered. (and the Research Notes)

Dr.Mate presents research from the best in the world, including Dr.Barkley in Scattered research Notes.

You have a copy of Scattered, could you go to the Research Notes and tell me which researchers/research you disagree with?

Dr.Mate clearly acknowledges the neurophysiological components of ADD,

such as genes and environment, emotional stress.


The goal of this thread is to present the information you have read,

but are not presenting.



i!i

Peri, you can be a follower of Mate all you wish and I will not argue with you on much of what he says. The only real issue I will address in this discussion is his ideas on causation, nothing else.

I decided that instead of going back and forth with you, I would, for those reading, present as clearly and plainly as I could what I feel Mate is saying on causation, why I object to it, and present how I view causation of ADHD.

Really that is all I am addressing and I do not wish to take it beyond that.

If you disagree on my take on what Mate proposes as causing of ADHD, then I will discuss it with you but not unrelated subjects at least not in this thread or the one I initiated.

Yours,

Dizfriz

Fraser_0762
07-23-13, 12:24 PM
Guys, can you hold this debate in some kind of mega thread?

It's just that we have numerous threads on this debate already and it really doesn't warrant another thread.

Abi
07-23-13, 12:35 PM
I agree that there are way too many versions of the "stress" thread going around, however, I think this thread by Peripheral and Dizfriz's one are a good idea.

They provide "home bases" of sorts for each of the two main idealogical groups in the debate; and make it easier to handle thread derailment.

Visitors to "Peripheral's house" can remember to show some respect for his "house rules", and the same applies to "Dizfriz's house".

I would not mind if section mods merged all the other "stress" threads into a mega thread, though.

PS. This post reflects my personal opinions as a member, not as a moderator, and should not be used to infer any official directives.

mildadhd
07-23-13, 01:02 PM
Dizfriz,

I felt/thought about similar factors that Dr.Mate is presenting.

Long before I ever heard of Dr.Mate or read Scattered.

(I will give examples upon request)

Dr.Mate introduced me to a vast amount of information and researchers to help me understand better to connect the dots emotionally/physiologically.

Dr.Barkley and other researchers have helped me as well.


If you want to discuss executive brain development after the age of 4,

go a head,

but I question if you are you discussing the causes or the results of ADD?


The majority of automatic self regulation develops before the age of 4.


So I recommend, if you are going to discuss causes of ADD.

That you at least also focus on the time period before the age of 4,

and surely no later than the age of 7. (not including ADD as a result of physical trauma)


To be clear.

We must have symptoms of ADD before the age of 7.

The age being discussed is very important to clarify,

due to critical periods of development when rates of environmental influence differ dramatically.


When considering causes of interruption in the development of automatic self regulation, (ADD)

don't you think focusing on the early period of development when automatic self regulation develops,

and can be influenced by the environment, is extremely important? (understatement)





In the period following birth, the human brain, unlike that of the chimpanzee, continues to grow at the same rate as in the womb.

There are times in the first year of life when, every second, multiple millions of nerve connections, or synapses, are established.

Three-quarters of our brain growth takes place outside the womb, most of it in the early years.

By three years of age, the brain has reached 90 per cent of the adult size, whereas the body is only 18 per cent of adult size.*

This explosion in growth outside the womb gives us a far higher potential for learning and adaptability than is granted to other mammals.


Notes: B. Perry and R. Pollard, "Homeostasis, Stress, Trauma and Adaptation: A Neurodevelopmental View of Childhood Trauma." Child and Adolescent Clinics of North America 7(1) (January 1998): 33-51. Citing data form R. Shore, Rethinking the Brain: New Insights into Early Development (New York: Families and Work Institute, 1997).

-Gabor Mate M.D., "In The Realm Of Hungry Ghosts", p 182

mildadhd
07-23-13, 01:54 PM
[Emotion] is a domain of ADHD that is often under appreciated,

but is now being put back into our models,

and theories and explanations of the disorder.

-Dr.Russell Barkley (2012)


I agree with Dr.Barkley that the domain of emotion is under appreciated in theories and explanations of ADD.

I think that is one of the major intentions of Dr.Mate writing Scattered (2000).


Scattered has many excellent references about the domain of emotion and ADD,

for anyone interested in "newly" including emotions in their theories and explanations of ADD, during the year of 2013.


i!i

Addersaurus
07-23-13, 02:42 PM
I think the word factors is preferable to causes, the word cause implies a 1-1 cause-effect relationship..

Part of the reason this argument goes round in circles is because people expect there to be a 1-1 basis for causation.

It simply does not exist with regard to ADHD, most certainly not from a genetic perspective.

mildadhd
07-24-13, 02:09 AM
Hi SB_UK,

I think the issue is my interpretation (or lack of) vocabulary.

I think we are in agreement.

But I want to discuss the terms more,

so I can get a better understanding.

Let me get back to you tomorrow.


Thanks for your help.


Peripheral

SB_UK
07-24-13, 05:15 AM
ooops!

sustainable (predominantly *informational*)
not
sustainable (predominantly)

mildadhd
07-24-13, 01:45 PM
Thanks 8 or 9 Billion SB_UK,

I would like to return to different factors in your posts over time.

A few things that I was wondering

-starting point?

-Subcortical<----->Cortical, relationship

-Changing Time periods of development.* (Seasons)


To allow for the maturation of the brain and nervous system that in other species occurs in the uterus,

the attachment that was until birth directly physical now needs to be continued on both physical and emotional levels.

Physically and psychologically, the parenting environment must contain and hold the infant as securely as she was held in the womb.


-Gabor Mate M.D., Scattered, P67

mildadhd
07-24-13, 02:25 PM
Dizfriz

I believe this is where we are not on the same page?

You discuss topics that occur after the age of 4,(approx)

but environmental influences also shape brain regulation before the age of 4.

same with Dr Barkley's Executive Theory.

It would appear to be correct.

If early brain development before the age of 4 is not considered.



Experiences in the world determines the fine wiring of the brain.

As the neurologist and neuroscientist Antonio Damasio puts it,

"Much of each brain's circuitry, at any given moment in adult life, is individual and unique, truly reflective of that particular organism's history and circumstances." *(2)

This is no less true of children and infants.

Not even in the brains of genetically identical twins will the same patterns be found in the shape of nerve cells or the numbers and configuration of their synapses with other neurons.

Gabor Mate M.D., Scattered, p64.


Note (*2) Damasio, Descartes' Error, 260

SB_UK
07-24-13, 02:58 PM
To allow for the maturation of the brain and nervous system that in other species occurs in the uterus,

the attachment that was until birth directly physical now needs to be continued on both physical and emotional levels.

Physically and psychologically, the parenting environment must contain and hold the infant as securely as she was held in the womb.

Once baby emerges out from the 'safety' of the womb
- baby's environment becomes global society as opposed to just parental - though ... doesn't it ?

What's the point of this comment ?
The feeling I'm getting - is that we're observing an evolutionary event in man from man to a new species (enforcedly social)
- where children emerging into a model of development which takes place outside of the womb - is really going to need a safe global landscape

- requires a completely different global infrastructure to the one we have currently.

SB_UK
07-24-13, 03:03 PM
By that - what I mean - is that 'safety' of child can't be assured by parent post-partum
- safety of child is determined (once child emerges into the world) by the state of interaction between all people.

If key development is to occur post-delivery ... ... then that should mean that the species has altered its nature - towards all 'children' being of shared parentage by all other people.

Which is kinda' similar to the old tribal principle (that is - the tribe as an extended family) extended to envelop the entire species.

A relatively nice thought.

mildadhd
07-24-13, 04:20 PM
"Awareness"- Barliman


Considering awareness.


Before the age of 4 is when we can promote healthy development of the "ruling" automatic subconscious brain.

In turn,

humans with better ability to consider and address societies suboptimal conditions being discussed.




i!i

SB_UK
07-24-13, 04:23 PM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22415299
Catch-up growth in the first few months of life is seen almost ubiquitously in infants born small for their gestational age and conventionally considered highly desirable as it erases the growth deficit. However, recently such growth has been linked to an increased risk of later adiposity, insulin resistance and cardiovascular disease in both low income and high-income countries. Up to 4 - they just eat and poop.


So - what they eat'd be key, I guess ?

Ketosis till mind (language) begins ? <5 years
Ketosis when mind (language) ends ? ~>35 years conditional on mind undergoing build

The bit in the middle 'd be the anabolic stage of carbs/protein.

Just not processed carbs/animal protein.

SB_UK
07-24-13, 04:35 PM
Before the age of 4 is when we can promote healthy development of the "ruling" automatic subconscious brain.


So gut nervous system / gut microbiome ? promoting healthy development of the brain
- that could be true.

SB_UK
07-24-13, 04:38 PM
Things is - is that apart from the very most recent evolutionary leap of man - we're (life) really just all about food.

Perhaps (since mind/language hasn't appeared) - and babies are still 'animal-like' in their behaviour
- that food is the dominant mechanism promoting wellbeing.

Things certainly do change with language/mind ... ... but up until then ... ...

SB_UK
07-24-13, 04:40 PM
Optimal stress to the newborn - 'limiting' food intake ?
Suboptimal stress to the newborn - eating too much of the wrong foods ?

Abi
07-24-13, 04:41 PM
Ketosis till mind (language) begins ? <5 years

I hope to GOD no one does such dietary experiments on their infant children.

My guess is they will end up dealing with things a lot worse than ADHD.

mildadhd
07-24-13, 05:05 PM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22415299
Up to 4 - they just eat and poop.


So - what they eat'd be key, I guess ?

Ketosis till mind (language) begins ? <5 years
Ketosis when mind (language) ends ? ~>35 years conditional on mind undergoing build

The bit in the middle 'd be the anabolic stage of carbs/protein.

Just not processed carbs/animal protein.

SB_UK,

I can't disagree.

I interpret your some of your input as advanced, (not 101, but 201,301, 401..masters...if that makes sense?)

Example in the quote below, (and other chapters) Dr.Mate does discuss the importance of healthy nutrition, effects of high and low blood sugar, allergies, etc, and ADD.

As well as many other factors you discuss.


Three conditions without which healthy growth does not take place can be taken for granted in the matrix of the womb:

Nutrition, a physically secure environment and the unbroken relationship with a safe, ever presenting organism.

Gabor Mate M.D., Scattered, P66


I appreciate your added specific input on the subjects,

what food I eat does put added suboptimal or optimal stress in my life.

Dr.Mate mentions (In The Realm Of Hungry Ghosts) that he had yogurt and banana for breakfast.

But I can't eat bananas without getting heartburn, and yogurt without having gastric issues.

The association between the right orbitofrontal cortex, emotions and ADD impairments is the decision maker for me,

concerning the starting point.

Because I think emotional stress is the starting point, doesn't rule out importance of healthy nutrition.



Discussing with my Herbalist.

I was wondering, if people with ADD are "stuck" in normal early hyperactivity and impulsiveness "mode", etc. neurologically.

Could we also be "stuck" in regards to "normal" early life use of ketones, involving different enzymes etc.?

Please correct any misuse of terms, etc.

meadd823
07-24-13, 06:54 PM
Okay here is the deal folks

We have enough threads about stress in this section - I am NOT open to having another one.

Please present new and or alternate information or I will be forced to merge this thread into one of the already existing stress threads. This thread was presented as a means of exploring / discussing how Mate's work has been misunderstood / misinterpretated.


If the single cause of ADHD is really seen as stress then by all means please feel free to visit and contribute to one of our several existing threads regarding stress already in progress.



~Any and all questions, comments or concerns regarding this moderator post or any moderator actions taken should be address to me via PM.

Thank you in advance for your cooperation. ~

mildadhd
07-24-13, 06:59 PM
The great Canadian researcher Donald Hebb showed that groups of neurons that have fired together once are more likely to fire simultaneously in the future.

This Hebbian principle has been expressed as "neurons that fire together wire together."

The early emotional imprinting is encoded in the form of potential neuronal patterns:

groups of nerve cells primed to fire together.

We experience the later in life when we find to our surprise that some relatively minor stimulus,

being cut off in traffic, for example, triggers in us irrational rage, leaving us scratching our head and wondering, What was that about?

It was about the early imprinting of the OFC with the rage and frustration of the infant and toddler, and about the Hebbian principle.

Each time we scream at someone in traffic, we are telling a story from the earliest part of our life.


A vast body of research supports this understanding of the functions of the right prefrontal cortex.

Most dramatic to observe are the deficiencies and impairments suffered by people who have been injured in this area of the brain (*3)

Their behavior and emotional reactions are like a textbook description of ADD.

Among other ADD-like features, these so-called prefrontal patients often digress and have to be frequently reminded to finish a line of thought;

are easily distracted;

when listening, will often shift attention to whatever snippet of speech catches their interest;

during tasks will often seem to lose track of what the instructions were;

will be given to childish emotional outbursts;

will have difficultly inhibiting their physical impulses;

will find it nearly impossible to learn from experience.


Sustaining physical damage, such as an injury to the brain,

is not the only way that the chemical and electrical functions of the prefrontal cortex and may become disrupted.

In ADD there is no brain damage, but there is impaired brain development.

As I wrote in a earlier chapter,

it is not that a disorder develops, but that certain important brain circuits do not develop. Interference with the conditions required for the healthy development of the prefrontal cortex, I believe, accounts for virtually all cases of ADD.


Emotional interactions stimulate or inhibit the growth of nerve cells and circuits by a complicated processes that involve the release of natural chemicals.

To give a somewhat simplified example,

when "happy" events are experienced by the infant, endorphins--"reward chemicals,"

the brain's natural opioids--are released.

Endorphins encourage the growth of nerve cells and of connections between them.

Conversely, in animal studies, chronically high levels of stress hormones such as cortisol have been shown to cause important brain centers to shrink.


Gabor Mate M.D., Scattered, p 79-80.

mildadhd
07-24-13, 07:36 PM
Infants of Depressed Mothers Exhibit Atypical Frontal Electrical Brain Activity during Interactions with Mother and with a Familiar, Nondepressed Adult

Abstract


Previous studies have shown that infants of depressed mothers exhibit atypical frontal brain electrical activity when they are interacting with their mothers. Whereas typically developing infants exhibit greater left versus right frontal brain activity, infants of depressed mothers have been found to exhibit reduced relative left frontal activity. The left frontal brain region has been associated with the expression of positive emotions. In the present study, the question of whether the atypical pattern of brain activity found in infants of depressed mothers generalizes to situations not involving mother was addressed. Brain electrical activity was recorded from 13- to 15-month-old infants of depressed (N = 59) versus nondepressed (N = 40) mothers during a baseline condition, and during several social conditions that included a playful social interaction with a familiar experimenter. Infants of depressed mothers exhibited reduced left relative to right frontal activity during the baseline condition, and during interactions with their mothers and with the familiar experimenter. The present results suggest that the atypical pattern of electrical brain activity found in infants of depressed mothers generalizes to a variety of situations, including positive interactions with nondepressed adults.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1467-8624.00078/abstract

mildadhd
07-24-13, 07:58 PM
Environmental regulation of the development of mesolimbic dopamine systems: a neurobiological mechanism for vulnerability to drug abuse?

Abstract
Repeated periods of maternal separation in the early life of rats decreased dopamine transporter expression and significantly increased dopamine responses to stress, and behavioral responses to either stress or cocaine. As adults, maternal separation animals showed increased sensitivity to the effects of cocaine on locomotor activity and greater sensitivity to stress-induced sensitization to the effects of amphetamine on locomotor activity. These findings raise the possibility that in addition to effects on stress reactivity, early life events might dispose individuals to illness in later life through effects on very specific neurotransmitter systems.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11750774?dopt=Abstract

mildadhd
07-24-13, 08:08 PM
There is in ADD an inherited predisposition ,

but that's very far from saying there is a genetic predetermination.

A predetermination dictates that something will inevitably happen.

A predisposition only makes it more likely that it may happen,

depending on circumstances.

The actual outcome is influenced by many factors.


Gabor Mate M.D., Scattered p26

mildadhd
07-24-13, 09:16 PM
..let me give me give you two findings that have been replicated many times,

when we follow up twins,

we are able to calculate how much of them behavior,

is due to parenting, within family environment.

And here is what we find, the peak years of parental influence are below 7,

from 7 up to 12, it drops dramatically .

After 15 is 6%

6% of the variation in a teenagers behavior is how their parents raised them.

That's it.

and after age 21 it is zero.

there is no influence of parenting on any psychological trait,

after the age of 21.



The other research finding is the following and it is been found in every single study,

there is no correlation, between any trait of ADD and the adopted child and the people who raise them.

None.

If you think parenting is so powerful prove it.

Dr.Barkley



Dizfriz,

1)The first research supports the fact during the early infancy environment is the most influencial.


2a)The second research doesn't rule out obvious suboptimal stress of the adoption,

that may result in hypersensitivity infant and/or commorbities?

2b)Also, what about the same suboptimal stressed environment the adopted twins shared before they where born?


If I look at the research presented by Dr.Barkley.

Neither of the research rules out suboptimal stress?

You are arguing against suboptimal stress as one of the determining factors.

How do you rule out suboptimal stress in the research?

When are you going to present information to back up your opinions?

You came to my threads everytime (I didn't go to yours or anyone elses) with the same declaration that Dr.Mate is blaming the mother.

Prove it!






"We've done work, and a lot of other people have done work showing that essentially the number and density of dopamine receptors in these receptive areas is determined in utero,"

psychiatric researcher Dr. Bruce Perry told me in an interview.


For these reasons, adoption studies cannot decide questions of generic inheritance.

Any woman who has to give up her baby for adoption is, by definition, a stressed woman.

She is stressed not just because she knows she'll be separated from her baby,

but primarily because if she wasn't stressed in the first place,

she would have never have had to consider giving up her child:

the pregnancy was unwanted or the mother was poor, single or in a bad relationship or she was an immature teenager who conceived involuntarily or was a drug user or was raped or confronted by some other adversity.

Any of these situations would be enough to impose tremendous stress on any person, and so for many months the developing fetus would be exposed to high cortisol levels through the placenta..

Gabor Mate, M.D., In The Realm Of Hungry Ghosts, p 206

mildadhd
07-24-13, 09:36 PM
Dizfriz,

I think you are misinterpreting Dr. Mate,

and also the "idea" that genetic components/factors rule out environmental factors.

Genetic factors are not the only factors and they don't work alone.

Especially an multifactoral polygenetic impairment like ADD.


Joseph misinterpreted our advice to clinicians to emphasize that environmental factors were not likely the cause of ADHD for adoptive children.

This was not meant as a prescription for treatment but as a guideline for the clinician’s education for parents of children with ADHD, who are continually bombarded by media claims that ADHD is caused by weak family structures or poor parenting skills.

Such claims fly in the face of genetic epidemiological and neuroimaging data which show ADHD to be a brain disorder strongly influenced by genes (Faraone and Biederman, 1998).

These data suggest that, rather than blame parents for creating toxic environments, clinicians should educate them about the brain basis of the disorder as such education can potentially improve treatment adherence.




On the other hand, clinicians should not confuse the etiology of a disorder with its treatment.

It is wrong to believe that a genetic cause for a disorder means that psychosocial therapies will be useless.

The idea that genes cause a disorder does not rule out the possibility that psychosocial risk factors also influence its etiology or modulate its course.




We appreciate Joseph’s criticisms in the spirit of healthy scientific debate.

We also hope his ideas will lead to testable hypotheses that will further the growth of scientific literature and clarify the details of how genes and environment cause ADHD and moderate its course.



Joseph Biederman, M.D.
Stephen V. Faraone, Ph.D.
Massachusetts General Hospital
Harvard Medical School
Boston





Faraone SV, Biederman J (1998), Neurobiology of attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder. Biol Psychiatry 44:951–958
Faraone SV, Biederman J (2000), Nature, nurture, and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. Dev Rev 20:568–581
Faraone SV, Doyle AE (2001), The nature and heritability of attention-deficit/
hyperactivity disorder. Child Adolesc Psychiatr Clin N Am10:299–316, viii–ix
Faraone SV, Tsuang D, Tsuang MT (1999), Genetics and Mental Disorders: A
Guide for Students, Clinicians, and Researchers. New York: Guilford
Sprich S, Biederman J, Crawford MH, Mundy E, Faraone SV (2000), Adoptive
and biological families of children and adolescents with ADHD. J Am
Acad Child Adolesc Psychiatry 39:1432–1437
DOI: 10.1097/01.CHI.0000024882.60748.AA

Above information is a reply in the LETTERS TO THE EDITOR section, to Jay Joseph Psy.D.


J. AM. ACAD. CHILD ADOLESC. PSYCHIATRY, 41:12, DECEMBER 2002

ADOPTION STUDY OF ADHD...

Jay Joseph, Psy.D.
La Familia Counseling Service
Hayward, CA

http://jayjoseph.net/yahoo_site_admin/assets/docs/ADHD_Letters.163191402.pdf

mildadhd
07-24-13, 10:03 PM
There is significant hereditary contribution to ADD--sensitivity, subject of the next chapter--but I do not believe any genetic factor is decisive in the emergence of ADD traits in any child (*1)

Genes are codes for the synthesis of the proteins that give a particular cell its characteristic structure and function.

They are, as it were, alive and dynamic architectural and mechanical plans.

Whether the plan becomes realized depends on far more than the gene itself.

It is determined, for the most part, by the environment.

To put it differently, genes carry potentials inherent in the cells of a given organism.

Which of multiple potentials become expressed biologically is a question of life circumstances.




Gabor Mate M.D., Scattered, p49

Lunacie
07-24-13, 10:14 PM
There is in ADD an inherited predisposition ,

but that's very far from saying there is a genetic predetermination.

A predetermination dictates that something will inevitably happen.

A predisposition only makes it more likely that it may happen,

depending on circumstances.

The actual outcome is influenced by many factors.

Gabor Mate M.D., Scattered p26

and

Dizfriz,

I think you are misinterpreting Dr. Mate,

and also the "idea" that genetic components/factors rule out environmental factors.

Genetic factors are not the only factors and they don't work alone.

Especially an multifactoral polygenetic impairment like ADD.


I haven't seen anyone saying that an inherited predisposition actually
means a predetermination.

What Dizfriz and others have linked to is research that predisposition
seems to be running from 60% to 80%, which does leave room for other
factors, that are as yet unknown.

What is the point in arguing against a position that no one actually holds?
In numerous threads now, many of us have agreed that the root cause of
ADHD may well be multi-factoral.

mildadhd
07-24-13, 10:30 PM
The microcircuitry of the brain is formatted by influences during the first few years of life,

a period when the human brain undergoes astonishingly rapid growth.

Five sixths of the branching of nerve cells in the brain occurs after birth.

At times of the branching of nerve cells in the brain occurs after birth.

At times in the first year of life, new synapses are being established at a rate of three billion a second.

In large part, each infant's individual experiences in the early years determine which brain structures will develop and how well, and which nerve centers will be connected with which other nerve centers, and establish the network controlling behavior (*3)

The intricately programmed interactions between hereditary and environment that make for the development of the human brain are determined by a "fantastic, almost surrealistically complex choreography,"

in the apt phrase of Dr.J.S. Grotstein of the department of psychiatry at UCLA.

Attention deficit disorder results from the miswiring of brain circuits, in susceptible infants,

during this crucial period of growth.


Gabor Mate M.D., Scattered, p 64


Note (*3) Regarding the vulnerability of the infant brain to environmental influences:

"At any point in this process you have all these potentials for either good or bad stimulation to get in there and set microstructure of the brain,"

writes Dr.Robert Post, chief of the U.S.National Institute of Mental Health's biological psychiatry branch said in an interview with Chicago Tribune science writer Ronald Kotulak (Kotulak, Inside Brain, 8)

i!i

mildadhd
07-24-13, 10:44 PM
and




I haven't seen anyone saying that an inherited predisposition actually
means a predetermination.

What Dizfriz and others have linked to is research that predisposition
seems to be running from 60% to 80%, which does leave room for other
factors, that are as yet unknown.

What is the point in arguing against a position that no one actually holds?
In numerous threads now, many of us have agreed that the root cause of
ADHD may well be multi-factoral.

Lunacie and Dizfriz

Heredity includes epigenetics. (environment and genes)

60% to 80% is hereditary.

What percent of the 60% to 80% is genetic,

and what part of the 60% to 80% is environment,

is the question?

There is lots of reasons why this information is important.

I would like to stop here in this thread for now and present more specific information, over time, in the appropriate sections here at ADDF.


This thread will be used as a guide.

(and I don't mind presenting more research in this thread, upon request.)


i!i

mctavish23
07-24-13, 11:03 PM
Apples + Oranges are both fruit.

lol, I wonder if this parietal lesion thing will lead to some more "memorable"

quotes, or just result in a collective omfg stfu ?


u r welcome :cool:

Lunacie
07-24-13, 11:21 PM
Lunacie and Dizfriz

Heredity includes epigenetics. (environment and genes)

60% to 80% is hereditary.

What percent of the 60% to 80% is genetic,

and what part of the 60% to 80% is environment,

is the question?

There is lots of reasons why this information is important.

I would like to stop here in this thread for now and present more specific information, over time, in the appropriate sections here at ADDF.


This thread will be used as a guide.

(and I don't mind presenting more research in this thread, upon request.)


I don't understand. It seems like you're arguing against the quote by
Dr. Mate that you posted yourself. What am I missing here?

Abi
07-24-13, 11:22 PM
Heredity includes epigenetics.

60% to 80% is hereditary.

What percent of the 60% to 80% is genetic,

and what part of the 60% to 80% is environment,

is the question?

By the definition of heritability, only heritable epigenetic factors fall in that 60-80%. That is, methylation, (possibly) histone modification, and some other other obscure (and likely rare) processes.

Incidentally, I was unable to find any research suggesting that elevated cortisol levels affect DNA methylation or cause histone modification.

So: Maternal stress while the infant is in vivo do not form part of that 60-80%

Psychosocial stress experienced by the parents during the child' infancy do not form part of that 60-80%

Psychosocial stressors experienced by the infant during it's first 4 / 7 / insert your favourite number here years of it's life do not fall within that 60-80%

The presence of money, the consumption of carbohydrates and glucose, the consumption of animal protein, the absence of heteronormative pair bonding, and the price of eggs do not fall within that 60-80%

IF one or more of the above factors contributes to the aetiology of ADHD - and please note, while the contribution of the genetic and heritable epigenetic factors is established in the 60-80% range, there is no evidence to suggest that any of the above things contribute AT ALL - but again, if one or more of them do, they fall within the 20-40%.

mildadhd
07-24-13, 11:30 PM
Feel free to present any information that might help!

Don't forget to quote accurately.


Good Night!

Dizfriz
07-25-13, 04:52 AM
Peri I am not sure why you posted this but I am glad you did, it is a very good find.

The thing is that I agree with Biederman and Faraone and their comments support what I have been saying about the cause and treatment of ADHD.

Joseph misinterpreted our advice to clinicians to emphasize that environmental factors were not likely the cause of ADHD for adoptive children.

This was not meant as a prescription for treatment but as a guideline for the clinician’s education for parents of children with ADHD, who are continually bombarded by media claims that ADHD is caused by weak family structures or poor parenting skills.

Such claims fly in the face of genetic epidemiological and neuroimaging data which show ADHD to be a brain disorder strongly influenced by genes (Faraone and Biederman, 1998).

These data suggest that, rather than blame parents for creating toxic environments, clinicians should educate them about the brain basis of the disorder as such education can potentially improve treatment adherence.

On the other hand, clinicians should not confuse the etiology of a disorder with its treatment.

It is wrong to believe that a genetic cause for a disorder means that psychosocial therapies will be useless.


Note this particularly significant paragraph.

Such claims fly in the face of genetic epidemiological and neuroimaging data which show ADHD to be a brain disorder strongly influenced by genes and this one

The idea that genes cause a disorder does not rule out the possibility that psychosocial risk factors also influence its etiology or modulate its course. This is what I have been advocating the whole time. Again thanks for the find. They state it much better than I have been able to.

This also seems to be reaction against ideas such as Mate's that weak family structures or poor parenting skills (attunment is very much a parenting skill) cause ADHD.

In any case, I am quite puzzled but also very pleased by the quote and the source.

Dizfriz

mildadhd
07-25-13, 10:02 AM
...clinicians should educate them about the brain basis of the disorder as such education can potentially improve treatment adherence. (see original post) (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1515261&postcount=27)


The brain basis of ADD is exactly what Dr.Mate expresses in Scattered.

Dizfriz do you disagree that suboptimal emotional stress affects brain development?

I have asked you before about what Scattered Research Notes, :)

you disagreed with and you didn't have any disagreement about the researchers/research?

I already pointed out that Dr.Mate acknowledges ADD genetic components involved in the brain bases of ADD.


It is you that is not including emotional stress in your brain basis of ADD.

Without stress there is no brain basis.







i!i

mildadhd
07-25-13, 10:33 AM
Dizfriz,

Information from part of the "Introduction" to the book Scattered.

Attention deficit disorder is usually explained as the result of bad genes by those who "believe" in it, and as the product of bad parenting by those who don't.

The aura of confusion and even acrimony that surrounds public debate about the condition discourages a reasoned discussion of how environment and heredity might mutually affect the neurophysiology of children growing up in stressed families, in a fragmented and highly pressured society and in culture that seems more and more frenzied as we approach the turn of the millennium.

I have attention deficit disorder myself, and my three children have also been diagnosed with ADD.

I do not think it is a matter of bad genes or bad parenting, but I do believe it is a matter of genes and parenting.

Neuroscience has established that the human brain is not programmed by biological heredity alone, that its circuits are shaped by what happens after the infant enters the world, and even while it is in the uterus.

The emotional states of the parents and how they live their lives have a major impact on the formation of their children's brains, though parents cannot often know or control such subtle unconscious influences.

The good news is that major changes in the circuits of the brain can occur in the child and even in the adult if the conditions necessary for positive development are created.

Quick to arise whenever the environment is mentioned is the question of blame.

"You mean it's the parents' fault?" people immediately ask. It is a simplistic notion that if something is wrong, someone has to be at fault.

It would not help parents of children with ADD, besieged on all sides by the incomprehending judgments and criticality of friends, family, neighbors, teachers and even strangers in the street, to have yet one more finger pointed at them.

This book does not do so...

Gabor Mate M.D., Scattered, (Part of Introduction)

SB_UK
07-25-13, 11:12 AM
SB_UK,

I can't disagree.

I interpret your some of your input as advanced, (not 101, but 201,301, 401..masters...if that makes sense?)

Example in the quote below, (and other chapters) Dr.Mate does discuss the importance of healthy nutrition, effects of high and low blood sugar, allergies, etc, and ADD.

As well as many other factors you discuss.





I appreciate your added specific input on the subjects,

what food I eat does put added suboptimal or optimal stress in my life.

Dr.Mate mentions (In The Realm Of Hungry Ghosts) that he had yogurt and banana for breakfast.

But I can't eat bananas without getting heartburn, and yogurt without having gastric issues.

The association between the right orbitofrontal cortex, emotions and ADD impairments is the decision maker for me,

concerning the starting point.

Because I think emotional stress is the starting point, doesn't rule out importance of healthy nutrition.



Discussing with my Herbalist.

I was wondering, if people with ADD are "stuck" in normal early hyperactivity and impulsiveness "mode", etc. neurologically.

Could we also be "stuck" in regards to "normal" early life use of ketones, involving different enzymes etc.?

Please correct any misuse of terms, etc.

Positive that fast catch-up growth 'd be avoided if ketosis was maintained throughout life.
Ahhh! but ketosis requires a highly specialized diet ?
Not at all - it requires us to eat nearly nothing - that's all.

... ... so why don't we all just do it ?

Noticed that in days that I don't travel, get stressed, have to make train deadlines, have to wake up early etc etc etc -
I need to eat far less food.

I naturally gravitate towards eating nearly nothing - when in a state of relaxation.
Stress (although it's not obvious that it's occurring) drives food intake, reactively.

-*-

The only reason we aren't remaining healthy is because we're leading stressed lives which drive us to eat too much of the wrong foods.

Right the way from the start of this exercise (10 years) - there's been the mention of body (diet/exercise), mind (development of global logical consistency/wisdom) and spirit (pair-bonding is the gate) ... ...

so - of the need to attain a certain mind:body:spirit conformation for happiness.

We'er looking at a society where we've body (too much of the wrong diet, no exercise), mind (education towards money and not morality) and spirit (spectacularly high divorce rates) ... ...

there's a fundamental problem here - because in our current society we're headign further and further away from where we need to be to attain the fixed state of happiness - at completion of body/mind/spirit trajectories.

-*-

From what I'm seeing - as of the appearance of mitochondria - optimal physiologic conditions have been ketosis - it's just a wonderful state for health.

We'd have had no choice other than to live most of our lives in ketosis prior to farming (death camps for animals and carbohydrate death fields for as far as the eye can see).

Human beings have picked what 'tasted' best - failing to realise that what human beings are about - is getting over the neurochemical mechanisms which're excited by sugar, blood glucose elevation (starch - salivary amylase), umami (animal protein) and salt.

Tried salt (lo-salt - 10g on a couple of days) to overcome cramping - and incredible joint pain.

Salt, sweet and umami are all bad guys - and they're the ones (the tastes) which have influenced our choice in what we farm; it's a bit like askign the alcoholic, cigarette and heroin addict what we should grow ?
alcohol, cigarette and heroin plants

- when no thought (up until now) has been given to whether this profile of food was healthful.

It isn't - we're (as mitochondrial beings) predisposed to ketosis.

SB_UK
07-25-13, 11:34 AM
Noticed that in days that I don't travel, get stressed, have to make train deadlines, have to wake up early etc etc etc -
I need to eat far less food.

I naturally gravitate towards eating nearly nothing - when in a state of relaxation.
Stress (although it's not obvious that it's occurring) drives food intake, reactively.


Waves of stress - associate with waves of blood glucose elevation (and then proportional dips, reactively) - drives hunger - the desire to eat.
Noticed - that as soon as the stress is off (the week is over) - the weeknd is spent sleeping - more of less stating that I'm (we're all) running on stress throughout the 'working' commuter week.

Who decided that we can't spend our lives walking with a dog in the countryside ?

Almost nothing that people assiduously beaver away at in their 9-5's is worth doing.

Yes - you've gotta' service a train in order to prevent it from crashing
- but why're people travelling elsewhere with such a mission ?
There is no need.
They're only travelling to get to a workplace which allows 'em to pay for their own existence.

Just carrying the error.

The trains wouldn't need to be serviced if people were free to live without money.

mildadhd
07-25-13, 12:10 PM
I find the thought of doing homeostasis (plural),

the most psychologically comfortable for me to consider.

If I am a doing heavy labor, I need to eat more.(using energy)

If I was the Emperor I would choose to eat a very small amount.

Nuts have lots of energy like you said.

Cost less in the long run as well.


Hydrogenated Oils mess me up, big time.









i!i

SB_UK
07-25-13, 12:22 PM
Strange coincidence ?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/spain/10201311/Train-in-Spanish-crash-was-travelling-at-more-than-double-the-speed-limit.html

A species which has come of its rails ?

SB_UK
07-25-13, 12:25 PM
If I am a doing heavy labor, I need to eat more.(using energy)


I think those days are passed though - what once was heavy labour is now performed with machine assistance.

Abi
07-25-13, 12:29 PM
I think those days are passed though - what once was heavy labour is now performed with machine assistance.

As usual, you make sweeping generalisations.

I'm assuming you, like me are PI or PI-like.

Combined Type ADHDers like physical work. In fact, they find it highly therapeutic.

SB_UK
07-25-13, 12:34 PM
Why isn't it obvious that our evolutionary predecessors (and man - in all but a small minority in just the last few years (post WWs)
- have lived in a state of near starvation

- and so if anything, evolution 'd select for an organism which is happy under near starvation conditions.

Ease of fat deposition (insulin sensitivity), use of fat (ketone bodies) in times of food absence, mitochondrial usage of fat (ketones) 'd be the evolutionarily selected qualities we'd be looking for the species to acquire
... ... not anything to do with eating more than we require.

Really does look as though those who're the 'whipping' boys of society - those who're falling victims to diabesity and are being made fun of by society by failing to exercise self-restraint
- may well be the products of evolution.

Funny how things work out - people were expecting super powers in subsequent evolutionary forms - not the incapacity to consume.

SB_UK
07-25-13, 12:35 PM
As usual, you make sweeping generalisations.

I'm assuming you, like me are PI or PI-like.

Combined Type ADHDers like physical work. In fact, they find it highly therapeutic.

Physical work (eg exercise) isn't heavy labour - heavy labour has a habit of breaking the body in two.

Abi
07-25-13, 12:45 PM
SB: Peripheral isn't a dork like us. He's a strong ************. :)

Anyway, back to topic...

mildadhd
07-25-13, 12:52 PM
I do heavy labor, up down stairs, carrying, wood, metal, stone...dirt, trees, wheelbarrow, water, buckets..

I love the simplicity of it. (not so much the stairs)

I can dig the most beautiful hole.

I self medicate with heavy labor, wasn't diagnosed til 35.

All my jobs where/are similar.



But now I have worn down discs in my lower back, arthritis.

Can't lift heavy things without messing up my back

(before I hurt my back I didn't think ADD was impairing enough to be labeled disabled,

but now my perspective is much different)



But I can't imagine not doing heavy labor work.

And when I can go to work.

I can't stop,(literally), people get mad and ask me to slow down because I make them look bad.

If they only knew, I wish I could slow down, but I can't.

Medication helps a lot, to help go at a more moderate pace. (slow down)

When I think about someone working in an office,

it is like trying to wonder what it is like to walk on the moon


I have a similar lack of control about eating habits.

But now that I can't work all the time.

My body and thoughts want me to eat less and "better".

So I understand where you are coming from psychologically and physiologically, I think?


i!i

SB_UK
07-25-13, 01:12 PM
The inflammation in my hands and feet make walking and using the hands really difficult.

They begin to glow white hot, sweat, swell and become inflamed.

A big fan of exercise but disease - asthma, inflammation - make it difficult.

mildadhd
07-25-13, 01:19 PM
SB: Peripheral isn't a dork like us. He's a strong ************. :)

Anyway, back to topic...

LOL


A Strong ************ + Weak Mind = Bad Back :D

SB_UK
07-25-13, 01:24 PM
why am i inflsmed?
why is everybody inflamed ? (root of western disease)

inflammatory food + toxic stress

mildadhd
07-25-13, 01:24 PM
The inflammation in my hands and feet make walking and using the hands really difficult.

They begin to glow white hot, sweat, swell and become inflamed.

A big fan of exercise but disease - asthma, inflammation - make it difficult.


Hypersensitivity?

I was wondering why we hypersensitive people have different allergies?

Ache Ouch! Not so much my feet or hands, no asthma.

Food sensitivity, Immflamation, (can't take non inflamatory?any more, (stomach)

Back gets even worse when I eat bad. (Inflamation?)


I walk a lot.






i!i

SB_UK
07-25-13, 01:29 PM
toxic stress drives desire for inflammatory foods.

'growth'

'human beings are a virus'

Cut insulin/IGF-1 - rock solid blood glucose levels (absence of toxic stress) in ketogenic environment.

There's no getting away from these two.

SB_UK
07-25-13, 01:31 PM
Hypersensitivity?

I was wondering why we hypersensitive people have different allergies?

Not so much my feet or hands. Ouch!


I walk a lot.






i!i

True - it's dumb to search for why we're allergic to pollen, dust or fungus - they are and will always be ubiquitous.

We've just a screwy immune system which has been messed up by loss of anti-inflammatory capacity.

Cortisol resistance.

There's absolutely no logic to an immune reaction to grass
- it's the most ridiculous thing that the human immune system ever pulled off.

SB_UK
07-25-13, 01:34 PM
Then again - sterilizing the planet might overcome the problem of allergy.

And it might even just get funded - based on the incredible stupidity that man is capable of displaying.

Just seen the salt water prawn farms of Bangladesh ... ... shortly after deciding to revert to standard crops - the farmers discover that salt water farming irreversibly sterilizes their land.

The things people do for food, feeding the rich and money.

mildadhd
07-25-13, 01:45 PM
ADDF and members have really helped me try to adapt to a more executive skilled mind set.

Being in the second half of my life (or less)

I am going to try to work on my addictions more.

I got a book in front of me I haven't read yet called,

"Globalization Of Addiction", A Study In Poverty Of The Spirit, Bruce K Alexander.

Have you heard of it?

SB_UK
07-25-13, 01:52 PM
"Globalization Of Addiction", A Study In Poverty Of The Spirit, Bruce K Alexander.

Have you heard of it?

:-)

The title is enough - and he's right.

If we just interpret healthiness of the spirit as the optimal lifestyle required for human health - then he's right - in that addiction to money, power, carbs, salt, processed food, cigs, alcohol, titles, material wealth, title, fame etc etc

- all of the stuff that we're trying to transcend

- has us in its (and at an unprecedented level) grips.

So - the life of an addict to materialism in this globalized world - resulting - in the least healthy of individual (unprecedented levels of disease)
- occurring - if we are permitted to use the term - through impoverishment of spirit.

SB_UK
07-25-13, 02:00 PM
Sadly - for the time being - we're not allowed to use the term 'spirit'
- but nobody can stop us from quoting epiidemiological data which shows the social environment in which we're healthiest.
Now - that environment is the environment in which the spirit aspires to be
- but we can leave that 'stuff' out and just list out the provably necessary aspects we require to society in order to live a disease-free existence
- nobody can complain at this strategy

- and then create a society which aligns with that profile.

Ultimately though it's just Mount Athos with pair-bonding, children, happy animals, poop scoops and poop-based power plants.

http://voices.yahoo.com/ten-childrens-books-poop-802025.html?cat=4

There's something in that.

mildadhd
07-25-13, 02:07 PM
Caged verses Not Caged.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3swVNAaoDgw

SB_UK
07-25-13, 02:12 PM
The best selling follow up to my sentence 'everybody dies (poops out)' ... ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everyone_Poops

(a sentence which not only didn't sell, but failed to gain critical acclaim)

SB_UK
07-25-13, 02:15 PM
morphine (lowers blood pressure) [narcotic]
->
<-
cocaine (increases blood pressure) [stimulant]

Posterior pituitary - oxytocin (attachment) and blood pressure maintenance (vasopressin)

Moving past narcotic/stimulant model of existence
- transcending the circuitry which gives us classical addiction ?

mildadhd
07-25-13, 02:22 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7axaXQmdBVQ

SB_UK
07-25-13, 02:24 PM
Caged verses Not Caged.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3swVNAaoDgw

That's a great find.

Addictive behaviours are driven through toxic stress exposure through living life in a manner to which the organism is not disposed.

Whyever was that study not published in the highest jounal in the land - it's a remarkable finding !!

We're not meant to travel 5 hours a day, stuck in traffic jams, be locked away in cubicles, eating only the processed food at hand - collapsing through exhaustion each night - and waking up tired in the morning
- with stimulants necessary to drive us through the day.

And with reference to rat park - it's no surprise that people who live that life - live it for the promise of alcohol, drugs and meat and potato pies aplenty at the weekend
- before the whole thing bgins again
- with the thought of more of the drugs of addiction as reward for our pain.

SB_UK
07-25-13, 02:29 PM
A future religion could be entitled 'everyone' ... ... just one interconnected structure making up what we call reality.
Judging by the rate of impoverishment of the spirit and rise of fast food - that religion 'd be as popular as drawing people's attention to their own ('everyone poops out') mortality.

SB_UK
07-25-13, 02:50 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7axaXQmdBVQ

Our 6 strategies for tackling addiction are failing.

Why ?

Because as 'rat park' shows - the key stressor - the human equivalent of 'caged-ness' is social hierarchy/inequality
- and whilst it's with us -

- there's nothing we can do to eliminate the direct consequences of its existence (stress,addiction,drug seeking behaviour (particularly to money,materialism),inflammation,disease).

mildadhd
07-25-13, 02:55 PM
A future religion could be entitled 'everyone' ... ... just one interconnected structure making up what we call reality.
Judging by the rate of impoverishment of the spirit and rise of fast food - that religion 'd be as popular as drawing people's attention to their own ('everyone poops out') mortality.


I'm an Everythingsian .:D

mildadhd
07-25-13, 02:56 PM
Seeking System. (7 primary emotional systems)
Affective Neuroscience.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5smTLCKkUA4

mildadhd
07-25-13, 03:09 PM
Affective neuroscience is the study of the neural mechanisms of emotion. This interdisciplinary field combines neuroscience with the psychological study of personality, emotion, and mood.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affective_neuroscience

daveddd
07-25-13, 03:21 PM
Behavioral inhibition(cause of in attention and impulsiveness/hyperactivity)=. Driven by emotion (only the physical feeling ofemotional arousal)??????

daveddd
07-25-13, 03:59 PM
Wrong place

Dizfriz
07-25-13, 04:25 PM
Dizfriz,

Information from part of the "Introduction" to the book Scattered.

A small but important point:

I do not think it is a matter of bad genes or bad parenting, but I do believe it is a matter of genes and parenting.
Mate, Scattered Introduction xvii Good representative quote illustrating Mate's position on parenting being a cause of ADHD. Thanks for posting it. I had missed it when I read Scattered.

Mate here states clearly that he thinks ADHD is a matter of genes and parenting. Note the parenting part. From what I have read by Mate's work and Peri's postings it seems that Mate is saying that genes result in a predisposition for ADHD but it is parenting in the form of attunment and attachment that causes or decides if the kid will be ADHD. I think the quote is more than clear enough to be definitive of Mate's claim along with the one I posted earlier

I believe that ADD originates in stresses that affect the mothering parent's emotional interactions with the infant. They cause the disrupted electrical and chemical circuitry of ADHD. Attachment and attunement, two crucial aspects of the infant-parent relationship, are the determining factors. Mate, Scattered Pages 69-70
Peri, you may not have intended to but you are supporting my contention that Mate believes that parenting is a major part if not the most important part of the cause of ADHD. I will change my statement to to Mate believes that genetics, attunment and attachment are the causes of ADHD.

I will add the genetics part in any writing I do on the subject from this point on. I want to reflect what he is advocating as accurately as I can.

Dizfriz

mildadhd
07-25-13, 07:27 PM
Dizfriz and Daveddd

Focusing on the "brain basis" of ADD.

Are you familiar with the natural relationship between the healthy development of the right orbitofrontal cortex (higher cortical) emotional self regulation and the process of healthy attunement ?

And what happens when uncontrollable suboptimal emotional stress interferes with the attunement relationship between primary caregiver and infant?

I will post more information about the natural role right OFC and the natural role of attunment brain development more in the next post.



Dizfriz,

Genes and parenting are essential for healthy brain development.

In my opinion there is no denying that healthy development of the OFC involves genes and parenting.

Dizfriz, are you denying that parenting and genes are involved in healthy human brain development?


I think we need to focus more on the normal healthy brain development,

to understand the brain basis of ADD described in Scattered by Dr.Mate.





i!i

mildadhd
07-25-13, 10:28 PM
Behind the forehead in the vicinity of the right eye is where one of the most important regulatory centers in the brain is located: orbitofrontal cortex. (*1)

It is part of the prefrontal cortex, that area of the gray matter most involved in social intelligence, impulse control and attention.

It is also important in short-term working memory.

The orbitofrontal cortex--so named because of its proximity to the eye socket, know as the orbito--is more developed on the right side and appears to dominate its counterpart in the left hemisphere.



Nature's goal for human growth is for the eventual maturation of a self-motivated, self regulated and self-reliant adult.

The infant lacks these attributes.

We may say that the natural agenda is really the transformation of regulation from dependence on another individual to independence, from external regulation to internal regulation.

This shift from external to internal regulation requires the development of the prefrontal cortex, the cortex in the very anterior portion of the brain, including and especially the orbitofrontal cortex.



The right orbitofrontal cortex, which for the sake of brevity we will call the OFC, has connections with virtually every other part of the cortex.

It also has rich connections with lower brain structures, where the body's internal physiological states are controlled and monitored, and where the most primitive and powerful emotions such as fear and rage are generated.

It is at the center of the brain's reward and motivation apparatus and contains more of the reward chemicals associated with pleasure and joy--dopamine and endorphins--than almost any other area of the cortex.



Via its connections with the vision centers of the cortex, the OFC plays a role in visual-spatial orientation, the locating of objects in space...




The OFC has a major role in the control of attention.

From all the information about the external environment and internal body states entering out brain, the OFC helps to pick out what to focus on.

While the explicit meaning of words spoken is analyzed in the left hemisphere, the right OFC interprets the emotional content of communications--the other person's body language, eye movements and tone of voice.

It carries out a constant and instantaneous computation of the emotional significance of situations.

It is deeply concerned with the assessment of relationships between the self and others.

According to a number of studies,

it is "dominant for the processing, expression, and regulation of emotional information." (*2)



The OFC also functions in impulsive control, helping to inhibit the lower centers in the brain where urgent emotional drives originate.

When working it is working smoothly, it can delay emotional reactions long enough to allow mature, more sophisticated responses to emerge...




Finally, the OFC records and stores the emotional effects of experiences, first and foremost the infant's interactions with his or her primary caregivers during the early months and years.

Its imprinting of the earliest interactions with the primary caregivers is the unconscious model from which all later emotional reactions and interactions will be formed.

Groups of neurons in the OFC encode the emotional footprints of these important experiences--footprints in which, willy-nilly (*0), we tend to follow later in life, again and again and again.



Gabor Mate M.D., Scattered, p 77,78,79




(*0) Definition of WILLY-NILLY
1; by compulsion : without choice
2: in a haphazard or spontaneous manner
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/willy-nilly


Scattered Notes

(*1) The research data and the psychological observations pointing to the central role of the OFC in self-regulation, motivation, emotional processing and attention are detailed masterfully in Affect Regulation and the Origin of the Self by Allan N. Shore, destined to become a classic in the literature of brain development.

(*2) Schore, p 195.

mildadhd
07-26-13, 12:21 AM
...Genes are codes for the synthesis of the proteins that give a particular cell its characteristic structure and function.

They are, as it were, alive and dynamic architectural and mechanical plans.

Whether the plan becomes realized depends on far more than the gene itself.

It is determined, for the most part, by the environment.

To put it differently, genes carry potentials inherent in the cells of a given organism.

Which multiple potentials become expressed biologically is a question of life circumstances.

Gabor Mate M.D., Scattered, p 48-49

mildadhd
07-26-13, 12:25 AM
From early infancy, it appears that our ability to regulate emotional states depends upon the experience of feeling that a significant person in our life is simultaneously experiencing a similar state of mind.


-Daniel J Siegel, M.D.

mildadhd
07-26-13, 12:34 AM
The areas of the cortex responsible for attention and self-regulation develop in response to the emotional interaction with the person whom we may call the mothering figure.

Usually this is the birth mother, but it may be another person, male or female, depending on circumstances.

Although, for the sake of convenience, I will at times refer to this only as the mother, the word should always be understood to refer to whoever the primary nurturing parent may be--father, mother, or grandparent, foster parent or adoptive parent of either gender.




Gabor Mate M.D., Scattered, P 69

SB_UK
07-26-13, 03:21 AM
The number 1 TED video is 'why schools destroy creativity ?'
Development of mind is meant to be development of creativity (the creative process).
And so we could suggest that 'bad parenting' represents sending children into an educational establishment which prevents proper development of the mind.

Certainly this form of 'bad parenting' 'd drive stress in the stress sensitive (ADDers) leading to disorder which'd result in the medical definition of ADHD/ADD arising
... ... however ... ... the difference between this angle on 'bad parenting' and the usual angle on 'bad parenting'
- is that the 'bad parent' by my definition would actually think of themselves as an exemplary parent.

By that I mean - that the parent who works extra hours and foregoes all material world pleasure in order to send their kid to the most competitive of private schools - whilst putting immense pressure on the child to succeed ('look at what I've given up to send up to that ridiculous £10k pa school') - would (in the underlying ADDer predispositional) result in disorder element arising (medical definition of ADHD).

-*-

Is education bad ?
No - education's absolutely essential - but not within a framework of just teaching kids what's easy to teach kids - and definitely not within a competitive environment.
So - I'd argue that the kid that can do everything well - is far better than the kid that excels in one thing ... ... this is the development of global mind idea ... ... but we live in an educational paradigm which encourages lop-sidedness.

What's wrong with lop-sidedness?
eg molecular detailed versus systems mind
- wisdom (the ultimate goal of education) is all about systems mind.

-*-

So - I'm arguing that bad parenting is the cause of ADHD (disorder component) - where bad parenting relates (in an entirely non-standard way) - to the terrible society which man has created for children to grow up in.

It's well known that phrased within a global economic system which requires growth and a reversing rate of global population growth - that with each passing generation from the 80's - that generations will have a progressively more difficult time of it.

So - we're forcing children into more restrictive cages with each generation post-80's ... resulting in the diseases (see rat park) of stress/stress-relief/drug seeking behaviours which we're accustomed now to seeing.

The last week has seen riots in Brazil, Bulgaria (!) - neither of which I was expecting. The global economic system favours developing countries - but it looks as though thee population curve in places like Brazil is turning - meaning that the majority middle classes (just like we're seeing in Europe currently) are going to feel the squeeze - are going to find their governments ramping up debt in order to maintain their overly high standard of living.

So - in the UK - there's plenty of talk of increasing the age of retirement, decreasing pension payments (as the major draw (by a long way) on the government's welfare bill - which the government can no longer support)
- on privatizing the health system

- however ... ... ... at the rate of increase of Western disorders - we're looking at people living sicker from earlier - living longer sicker ... ... meaning to the net economic detriment of society.

So - what we need is for people to live healthily for longer - and 'bad parents' are preventing this from happening - in their subsequent generations by channeling their children into terrible educational and workplace systems which drive stress -> disorder -> disease.

-*-

So - we've a complete incompatibility between what society states is 'good parentling' (feeding children into a system which maintains social inequality/social hierarchy/which encourages children to kick down their neighbours in order to rise up)
- and what actually is 'good parenting' -

- allowing the child within context of society - absence of chronic toxic stress.

So - why do parents do it ? Why can't parents see that forcing their children into this system (especially as of post-80's) is responsible (directly) for killing their (particularly ADDer) children ?

It's as simple as - parents not really thinking about 'things'.

Everybody's doing it - and so it must be right.

Thing is - that in the 50's post-WWs - with absence of global information and the world at a different point in its growth curve - the economic system - which helped to develop the world when in a growth paradigm - 'd have been a 'sorta'' sensible thing to do ... ... in a world in which everything is owned by just a few people - how would one get the people with it all to give it up - so that people with nothing could live. A slightly less repressive form of slavery arose - slightly less repressive - because repression was taken away from the individual and placed into the debt mechanism. Your were slave to debt repayments as opposed to making regular payments to the 'King' - though ultimately - through retaining property/land rights - rentier capitalism was only a short step away from direct feudalism.


But times change.

We're at the point where good parenting is going to necessitate shedding the materialist imperative - because the system which keeps it in place money/law
- is on the verge of collapse.

But why will people do anything ? or not commit random criminal acts ? in a world without money/law.

Why do people need to do anything ? Realise that - and people will want to do something (volitionally). Money is thereby not requried. Realise that the law keeps in place social inequality/hierarchy - which *causes* crime
- and the law is tracked back as the *cause* of criminal behaviour.
And since ignorance is no defence in the face of the law - the entire legal system/lawyer grouping is indicted of ALL criminal acts perpetrated by man.

And yet - parents continue to encourage their children into a University law degree - as nothing more than a qualification in mass absorption of facts; understanding (the basis to creativity) and morality (you must follow the system and not aspire to morality/justice) - disabled in the process.

-*-

So - and back to 'bad parenting' - 'bad parenting' is the cause of ADHD - because it's the parent (at about 30 - 40 years of age) that's most responsible for the state of human interaction - and this current generation - despite receiving a proper education in reality courtesy of 60s, 70s and 80s music of dissent
- are clinging to material 'pleasures' necessitating sub-optimal existence of other people - instead of sharing it (the material world) all around.

Abi
07-26-13, 03:40 AM
It's those fu**ing baby boomers I tell you.

Ba****s!!

SB_UK
07-26-13, 03:43 AM
Bringing it all together - and drawing on the words of Noam Chomsky.
What we call society currently is identical to 'feudal society' (a system of slavery)
- which is simply obscured by the mechanism of money lying in between the rich and the poor.

We're no longer required to take our £10k per annum, bow before a land owner and hand them the money - it occurs via the system of money.

The system of money (actually every system which man puts in place from the crazy world of Windows programming to paying taxes) - are put in place by people who, for a number of reasons, over-complicate - rather than simplify systems.

The people who are charged with control over all of these systems (which develop a mind of their own into phenomenal complexity) - cling desperately to the complexity of these systems - as a means for the individual to retain job (money) and hence survival.

Through fear - people over-complicate life - make systems which only they can understand
- human beings live in a very small cubicle of complexity
- can't see the big picture

... ... ... and so are driven towards living life as all around them tell them to live life

- and not as their own mind dictates they should be living life.

-*-

We have a discrepancy between how we live (immoral) and our own subconscious mind (which we have no insight into) - and this discrepancy drives stress.

We're programmed to aspire to moral individual/moral social existence - but don't because of educational/media/workplace constant indoctrination.

Who's responsible ?
We're responsible - because we're naturally drawn to selfishness/materialism
- and so don't see the indoctrination clearly.
It's a pattern which operates well - without anybody needing to be at the helm - ensuring that we are kept in place - as good little consumers.

-*-

Now - what people want (cleanest possible planet, greatest biodiversity, absence of pollution, absence of disease, sustainable practices only, global collaboration, fastest informational transfer, fastest possible evolution in art ... ...) is now ABSOLUTELY prevented by the global economic system/global legal system.

We're at a stage - where 'good parenting' - will result in a complete elimination of the disorder element of ADHD - by changing global society to make equality (in the material world) as a fixed attribute of all human beings.

However ... ... what is ADHD ?

It's come all the way down to - a small evolutionary change in the repeating logical substructure of mind - which facilitates self-assembly of mind towards global logical consistency towards human wellbeing.

The emergence of an enforcedly social species.

That's a good thing.

meadd823
07-31-13, 01:38 AM
????? Moderator Question ?????

To be as fair minded as possible I must ask before presuming this stuff to be off topic thus placing the entire thread into the phuck it bucket - What in the hell does any of this have to do with Gobor Mate's work?

I have asked and been asking that members respect one another by remaining on topic.

- Due to the large amounts of thread hijacking by members with an overly stimulated interest in a narrow number of topics we as staff have a need to crack down on off topic postings.

Too many feel they can not post in this area least their thread get hijacked and careened into never never land.

Due to accusations of misinformation aimed at those with a main stream ideology I specifically asked that this thread be kept to the topic of Gobor Mate and the discussion be about how his work as been misunderstood / interpenetrated by members who consistently disagree with it.

I note several attempts to respond by said members but the thread has once again been bogged down into long monologs which seem to have nothing what so ever to do with Gobor Mate or how his work has been misunderstood / misrepresented


Now should the OP actually want the members he addresses to respond to his questions the thread has to remain close enough to topic to be followed and responded to by the average ADDF member and not so run of the mill ADDF moderators. Points of contingency need to be clear cut; responses need to have a clearly relevant to topic point.

It is not fair to ask members who see things differently to defend their position regarding certain aspects of Gobor Mates work when said discrepancies are buried in piles of off topic postings.

If one is going to accuse other members of misrepresenting a specific work or point of view it is only fair to allow them the forum in which to speak to said allegations.

Now get this thing back on topic or I am trashing the entire thread - I am tired of my polite request being ignored.