View Full Version : Breastfeeding could help kids beat ADHD


OnTheEdge
07-30-13, 04:39 PM
http://www.timesofisrael.com/breastfeeding-could-help-kids-beat-adhd-study-shows/

meadd823
07-30-13, 06:37 PM
I hate to burst bubbles but I was breast fed and I still wound up being ADHD - I think it to be possible that ADHD children were harder to breast feed which would naturally mean that lack of breast feeding did not cause the ADHD but being ADHD made breast feeding more difficult and therefore less likely.


For me personally my ADHD is not some thing I can beat but a part of me I must learn to live with. I am not a parental mistake I am NOT the result of crappy parenting, I am not a genetic screw up - I am some one who was born with a set of traits that gels poorly with the modern day enviroment - I must therefore take the initiative to make my enviroment as ADHD friendly as I possible can and learn to accept that which I can not modify or navigate around.

namazu
07-30-13, 06:39 PM
Here's a link to the study abstract:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23560473

I think the article misrepresents the study a bit, or at least the headline oversells the actual findings.

This was a case-control study, in which kids ages 6-12 who were diagnosed with ADHD, their siblings, and typically-developing controls were compared.

They asked parents about past breastfeeding for these children, and found that kids with ADHD were less likely than either their siblings or the typically-developing kids to have been breastfed in the first year of life, even when some other factors were taken into account.

But although the study results did establish a connection between breastfeeding and ADHD, they do not necessarily imply that breastfeeding can help prevent ADHD.

The authors speculate that that's the case (through substances in milk, or mother-child bonding), and those are possibilities we can't rule out.

However, there are also other possibilities that can't be ruled out based on this study. For example, kids with ADHD may be fussier or more restless infants due to the ADHD, and have problems breastfeeding that lead to parents' decisions to bottle-feed. (So the pre-existing ADHD temperament/behaviors lead to the bottle-feeding, instead of the bottle-feeding causing or failing to prevent ADHD.) This, too, would need evidence to support it.

So what this boils down to is that the study authors have made an interesting observation that kids with ADHD are less likely than other kids to breastfeed as infants -- but we don't really know why.

Thanks for posting the article, OnTheEdge. Good food for thought -- no pun intended!

ana futura
07-30-13, 08:50 PM
I was breast fed exclusively, and weened late. So there. :rolleyes:

These articles always remind me of when people where obsessed with finding a "cause" for homosexuality. He spent too much time with his mother! He didn't spend enough time with his mother! Whatever.

mildadhd
07-30-13, 09:49 PM
There is a lot of biology that occurs during breast feeding.

I think breast feeding would help a extra sensitive child.




i!i

ana futura
07-30-13, 10:03 PM
There is a lot of biology that occurs during breast feeding.

I think breast feeding would help a extra sensitive child.




i!i

That's an interesting thought. Maybe I'd be even more messed up without it :lol:

I'm actually fairly emotionally well adjusted, for how ridiculous my life is. I could see something like breast feeding helping an ADHD child feel more content and better adjusted, and perhaps less prone to anxiety and depression. I can't really see it helping with symptom severity though.

My emotional outbursts seem to be on the extreme end compared to others on this board (to this day). I recover from them well though. I can imagine that a secure family environment would help with recovery, but not so much with severity.

meadd823
07-31-13, 12:25 AM
Scientific double speak whip lash

A stepwise logistic regression that included the variables found to be significant in univariate analysis demonstrated a significant association between ADHD and lack of breastfeeding at 3 months of age, maternal age at birth, male gender, and parental divorce. Conclusions: Children with ADHD were less likely to breastfeed at 3 months and 6 months of age than children in the two control groups. We speculate that breastfeeding may have a protective effect from developing ADHD later in childhood.


So they looked back and did some fancy statistical math until the found the numbers they needed to prove their point.

Using the same mathematical methods I can demonstrate that owning cats will keep elephants out of your garden!!!

I am not against breast feeding any more than I am against a healthy diet but I see breast feeding to be along the lines of the Feingold diet - It probably does work for some but mostly for those who have food allergies that mimic ADHD.

stef
07-31-13, 12:30 AM
its also really good for the mom! and for a nervous adhd mom: "instant" bonding, no need to worry about sterilizing bottles, etc.

at the same time this arricle is going to upset a lot of parents who didnt/couldnt breastfeed...

doiadhd
07-31-13, 12:40 AM
Would it benefit me to supple as an adult,or
maybe i am to far gone.

The midwives when my son was born,could
not emphasize enough,that it was best to go breast

if worried about the monkey hanging off of you,can
always revert to the pump.

amberwillow
07-31-13, 01:05 AM
I was breast fed and I breast fed all of my 3 children past 12 months of age, and yet, we have all been diagnosed with ADHD.

I have to note that it was only my determination an belief in breast feeding that got me through the invidual feeding issues that babies 1-3 had.

mildadhd
07-31-13, 01:37 AM
The human infant lacks the capacity to follow or cling to the parent soon after being born, and is neurologically and biochemically underdeveloped in many ways.

The first nine months or so of extrauterine life seem to have been intended by nature as second part of gestation.

The anthropologist Ashley Montagu has called this phase extrogestation, gestation outside the maternal body. (*5)

During this period, the security of the womb must be provided by the parenting environment.

To allow for the maturation of the brain and nervous system that in other species occurs in the uterus, the attachment that was until birth directly physical now needs to be continued on both physical and emotional levels.

Physically and psychologically, the parenting environment must contain and hold the infant as securely as she was held in the womb.



For the second nine months of gestation, nature does provide a near-substitute for the direct umbilical connection: breastfeeding.

Apart from its irreplaceable nutritional value and the immune protection it gives the infant, breast-feeding serves as a transitional stage from unbroken physical attachment to complete separation from the mother's body.

Now outside the matrix of the womb, the infant is nevertheless held close to the warmth of the maternal body from which nourishment continues to flow.

Breast-feeding also deepens the mother's feeling of connectedness to the baby, enhancing the emotionally symbiotic bonding relationship.

No doubt the decline of breast-feeding, particularly accelerated in North America, has contributed to the emotional insecurities so prevalent in industrialized countries.




Even more than breast-feeding, healthy brain development requires emotional security and warmth in the infant's environment.

This security and warmth in the infant's environment.

This security is more than the love and best possible intentions of the parents.

It depends also on a less controllable variable: their freedom from stresses that can undermine their psychological equilibrium.

A calm consistent emotional milieu throughout infancy is an essential requirement for the wiring of the neurophysiological circuits of self regulation.

When interfered with, as it often is in our society, brain development is adversely affected.

ADD is one of the possible consequences.


Gabor Mate M.D., Scattered, P 67-68



Note (*5) "All the evidence indicates," writes the anthropologist Ashley Montagu, "that while the duration of the gestation period in man differs by only a week or two from that of the great apes, a large number of factors, all combining to lead to the much more prolonged development of the human infant, causes him to born before his gestation has been completed," (Montagu, The Human Revolution, 86)

!i!

meadd823
07-31-13, 02:32 AM
The human infant lacks the capacity to follow or cling to the parent soon after being born, and is neurologically and biochemically underdeveloped in many ways.

The first nine months or so of extrauterine life seem to have been intended by nature as second part of gestation.

The anthropologist Ashley Montagu has called this phase extrogestation, gestation outside the maternal body.

Malarkey - Nature intents who the hell know what nature intends outside of what nature actually does - It is natural for mom to strap her baby some where on her body and carry it while she forges for food or place infant in safe hiding place while she helps clean food killed by others.

These people who write books spend to much time in libraries to know what they are talking about when it comes to nature.

Nature does what nature intends

During this period, the security of the womb must be provided by the parenting environment.

Parents need to provide for the infant correct but in nature momma would strap her new born her body and move along with the business of staying alive herself. Baby learns by the money see monkey do method which is pretty much the way most off spring of other species learn.



To allow for the maturation of the brain and nervous system that in other species occurs in the uterus, the attachment that was until birth directly physical now needs to be continued on both physical and emotional levels.

Physically and psychologically, the parenting environment must contain and hold the infant as securely as she was held in the womb.

Off spring of other species are born still deaf and blind so I am sort of doubting the author knows wtf he is talking about.


For the second nine months of gestation, nature does provide a near-substitute for the direct umbilical connection: breastfeeding.

Apart from its irreplaceable nutritional value and the immune protection it gives the infant, breast-feeding serves as a transitional stage from unbroken physical attachment to complete separation from the mother's body.

Now outside the matrix of the womb, the infant is nevertheless held close to the warmth of the maternal body from which nourishment continues to flow.

Breast-feeding also deepens the mother's feeling of connectedness to the baby, enhancing the emotionally symbiotic bonding relationship.

No doubt the decline of breast-feeding, particularly accelerated in North America, has contributed to the emotional insecurities so prevalent in industrialized countries.

OMG we breast feed because we are mammals and that is what mammals do - Pleases do not discredit my intelligence by romanticizing being a mammal as if it is some special feature bestowed upon humans. . . . of coarse breast feeding provides opium nutrition because breast milk is specially designed for human babies but that ain't got nothing to do with said baby being born with a genetic predisposition for specific traits.


Nutrition does not have thing one to do with how said traits interact with an organism social enviroment however lack of basic survival needs may very well have a lot to do with how one responds to and expresses said traits


Even more than breast-feeding, healthy brain development requires emotional security and warmth in the infant's environment.

This security and warmth in the infant's environment.

This security is more than the love and best possible intentions of the parents.

It depends also on a less controllable variable: their freedom from stresses that can undermine their psychological equilibrium.

A calm consistent emotional milieu throughout infancy is an essential requirement for the wiring of the neurophysiological circuits of self regulation.

When interfered with, as it often is in our society, brain development is adversely affected.

ADD is one of the possible consequences.

LOL yeah being bottle fed in the modernized industrial age has to be so much more stressful than being strapped on the back of a parent who is running from a bear in nature.

meadd823 goes in search of a plant that needs fertilizing . . . .

stef
07-31-13, 03:15 AM
OMG we breast feed because we are mammals and that is what mammals do - Pleases do not discredit my intelligence by romanticizing being a mammal as if it is some special feature bestowed upon humans. . . . of coarse breast feeding provides opium nutrition because breast milk is specially designed for human babies but that ain't got nothing to do with said baby being born with a genetic predisposition for specific traits.

EXACTLY. and I said "instant bonding" because it's faster. You are "bonding" just as much by holding the baby close to you and feeding it with a bottle!

mildadhd
07-31-13, 09:02 AM
Meadd823,

Horse is a mammal, horses run on the first days if life.

So by your logic.

Then humans should be able to run on the first days of life?

I am really disapointed that you don't look into the science before you start using words like malarky to describe my posts.







i!i

Canadian Mess
07-31-13, 09:12 AM
And if ADHD is something that you are born with (you know those 64? genes that may be involved or the development of the brain), I fail to see how breastfeeding which is after birth is going to prevent it from happening.

I was breastfeed... and look how I turned out. Sigh...

It doesn't help that their methodology is flawed... as we say in my classes "if the methodology is flawed, the entire experiment and consequent conclusions are flawed."

Conman
07-31-13, 09:22 AM
all but one guy in my family was breast fed as babies, and my family is still plagued with ADD, including him. just putting it out there

Amtram
07-31-13, 09:45 AM
The study said that children with ADHD were less likely to have been breast-fed. To conclude, from that, that breast-feeding or lack thereof could lead to an infant "contracting" ADHD (words used in several of the articles covering this, not certain if it's in the study itself) is simply bad science. The methodology of the study is of limited use. The study was published in "Breastfeeding Medicine Journal," which has a specific agenda and an extraordinarily low impact factor. All of these things need to be considered when evaluating the value of a scientific finding.

A sixth-grade science fair project can meet the criteria for science, but that doesn't mean that its findings are relevant or far-reaching. If you want to see the actual study, it's here (http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/full/10.1089/bfm.2012.0145). It's a survey. It could be used to build a testable hypothesis, but it tests nothing. It's not a finding. It's statistically supported confirmation bias.

janiew
07-31-13, 09:47 AM
My mom breastfed me to 18 months. Surely it helped, but didn't cure anything.

Lunacie
07-31-13, 10:08 AM
Meadd823,

Horse is a mammal, horses run on the first days if life.

So by your logic.

Then humans should be able to run on the first days of life?


i!i


Kittens and puppies are born blind and don't walk or run for a few weeks.
Just because horses and cows and giraffes and elephants can walk within
hours of birth doesn't mean all mammal babies should be able to.

There are some similarities which distinguish creatures as being of the
mammal classification, but there are differences between each species
within the overall category. Internal gestation rather than hatching is one,
mammary glands for nursing is another.


I am really disapointed that you don't look into the science before you start using words like malarky to describe my posts.

It's disappointing when it's assumed that because someone disagrees with
a point that they haven't read/looked at/studied the issue. Often it means
they disagree and they can actually tell you why they do. It doesn't mean
they're uneducated or stupid.




My thought in regards to the OP, including the already posited thought that
infants with ADHD have more trouble relaxing and nursing at breast, is that
moms with ADHD have more trouble relaxing and nursing their babies.

I wanted to nurse very badly and got frustrated and impatient when my
baby would stop and listen to a noise, or look at my face, or just take a
moment to breathe. But I perservered and I'm glad I did. She weaned
herself at 14 months and if she has ADHD it's very mild.

She in turn nursed her first child for 3 years (supplemental to diet for the
last 2+ years) and that child was diagnosed with the most severe case of
ADHD the doctor said he'd ever seen. Could be the exception that proves
the rule, but I find that to be unlikely.

ana futura
07-31-13, 11:50 AM
My thought in regards to the OP, including the already posited thought that infants with ADHD have more trouble relaxing and nursing at breast, is that moms with ADHD have more trouble relaxing and nursing their babies.

Interesting thought. I bet sensory issues would get in the way as well. I imagine I would find the whole experience extremely unpleasant.

Lunacie
07-31-13, 11:57 AM
Interesting thought. I bet sensory issues would get in the way as well. I imagine I would find the whole experience extremely unpleasant.

I do have sensory issues but didn't find it unpleasant. The bonding feeling
was just amazing.

namazu
07-31-13, 12:04 PM
My thought in regards to the OP, including the already posited thought that
infants with ADHD have more trouble relaxing and nursing at breast, is that
moms with ADHD have more trouble relaxing and nursing their babies.
That seems like a reasonable possibility.

However, I think the researchers tried to take this into account by including siblings of the ADHD kids who did not have ADHD as well as "normal" controls without ADHD siblings.

Although the siblings of ADHDers were slightly less likely to breastfeed than the controls without ADHD siblings (which would support your hypothesis that maternal ADHD might have something to do with it), they were much more likely to breastfeed than their own siblings with ADHD (which wouldn't support the hypothesis).

So that suggests that maternal ADHD symptoms can't fully account for the difference in breastfeeding rates between kids with ADHD and kids without.

(That probably makes sense, given that ADHD tendencies can be inherited from both parents.)

Another thought I had, along somewhat similar lines to your hypothesis, was that I wonder how birth order typically affects breastfeeding behavior (regardless of any ADHD consideration), and if that played a role in both the sibling comparisons and the comparisons to kids without ADHD and without ADHD siblings. I'd want to know how many of the ADHDers were firstborns vs. their siblings, and also for the control kids without ADHDer siblings.

Lots to think about.

Dizfriz
07-31-13, 02:11 PM
I am not a parental mistake I am NOT the result of crappy parenting, I am not a genetic screw up - I am some one who was born with a set of traits that gels poorly with the modern day environment -

I think that is about as accurate a statement on ADHD as I have seen in a while.

Dizfriz

Lunacie
07-31-13, 02:26 PM
its also really good for the mom! and for a nervous adhd mom: "instant" bonding, no need to worry about sterilizing bottles, etc.

at the same time this arricle is going to upset a lot of parents who didnt/couldnt breastfeed...


Missed this the first time. It took over a week for me to bond with my
baby, even though I breastfed. Maybe that's because the hospital made
it difficult to breastfeed 40 years ago?

Back then you didn't go home the very next day, you were in the hospital
for 3 to 6 days, and the baby was kept in the nursery and brought to you
to be fed on the hospital's schedule - which did not match my baby's
schedule At All.

mildadhd
07-31-13, 04:18 PM
"A horse is a horse,

of course of course,

but no one can talk to a horse of course,

that is of course, unless the horse is the famous Mr.Ed.

Go right to the source and ask the horse.

He'll give the answer that you indorse.

He is always on s steady course, talk to Mr.Ed.





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAN_4wgm9t8

mildadhd
08-01-13, 02:11 AM
Nobody is arguing that genes are not involved.

Nobody is saying not breast feeding is the single determining factor in ADD.

Nobody is saying that everyone with ADD was not breast feed.



What if a infant was born hypersensitive?

What if the information could help a hypersensitive infant not born yet?

Would breast feeding make a difference?

It certainly seems essential enough to consider.

Maybe it was because I wasn't breast feed?

We don't all have the exact same symptoms.

None of us have the exact same brain circuits including identical twins.

We don't all the exact same genes.



If the infant was "on the edge" of being ADD?

Could not being breast feed result in a more severe impairment?

In my opinion looking at the brain systems implicated in ADD,

I think not breast feeding could in some circumstances suboptimally stress a hypersensitive infants development.




i!i

SquarePeg
08-01-13, 01:27 PM
I breast fed both my babies until at least 6 months old and both have ADHD. They were poor sleepers, cranky and fussy most of the time. They also slept with me in my bed, not my original intention but were such poor sleepers that this was the only way to get a good night´s sleep for all of us.
I also carried them both in slings for as long as I could as they wanted to be held the whole time.

stef
08-01-13, 02:13 PM
Interesting thought. I bet sensory issues would get in the way as well. I imagine I would find the whole experience extremely unpleasant.

suprisingly, its not unpleasant at all. and very relaxing.

mildadhd
08-01-13, 03:11 PM
suprisingly, its not unpleasant at all. and very relaxing.


Thanks Stef,



Opiate receptors can be found throughout the body and in each organ they play a specific role.

In the nervous system they are tranquilizers and pain killers, but in say the gut, their role is to slow down muscle contractions.

In the mouth, they diminish secretions.

This is why narcotics taken for pain relief will cause unwanted side effects elsewhere in the body, such as constipation or a dry mouth.

Why should there be so many different tasks for one class of natural chemicals?

Because Nature, that thrifty homemaker, likes to preserve what is tried and true and to find as many uses as possible for each type of messenger protein.

As evolution progressed, systems and substances that had a relatively narrow function in simpler organisms found new arenas of activity in the higher more complex species that emerged.





Many other body chemicals serve multiple purposes-- and the more evolved the organism, the more functions a particular substance will have.

This is true even of genes: in one type of cell a certain gene will serve one function; elsewhere in the body, it will be assigned quite a different duty.

In his book Affective Neuroscience, Dr. Jaak Panksepp gives a fascinating example of the role played in reptiles by vasotocin--a primitive version of the protein oxytocin, which triggers labour contractions and breastfeeding in females.





"...Vasotocin is an ancient brain molecule that controls sexual urges in reptiles.

This same molecule...also helps deliver reptilian young in the world.

When a sea turtle, after thousands of miles of migration, lands on its ancestral beach and begins to dig its nest, an ancient bonding system comes into action...Vasotocin levels in the mother turtle's blood begin to rise as she digs a pit large enough to receive scores of eggs, and reach even higher levels as she deposits one egg after the other.

With her labors finished, she covers the eggs, while circulating vasotocin diminishes to insignificant levels.

Her maternal responsibilities fulfilled, she departs on another long sea journey. (*8)






Mammalian mothers do not get off so easily--they stay with their helpless young.

And oxytocin--a more sophisticated version of vasotocin--plays a much more diverse role than its reptilian counterpart.

It not only induces labour but also affects a mother's moods and promotes her physical and emotional nurturing of infants.

In mammals of both sexes oxytocin also contributes to orgasmic pleasure and, more generally, may be considered one of the "love hormones."

Just like opioids, oxytocin can reduce separation anxiety when infused into distressed young animals.




Gabor Mate M.D., In The Realm Of Hungry Ghosts, P 152-153


Note (*8) J. Panksepp Affective Neuroscience: The Foundations of Humans and Animal Emotions (New York: Oxford University Press, 1998), P 250.



i!i

mildadhd
08-01-13, 04:04 PM
I am really disapointed that you don't look into the science before you start using words like malarky to describe my posts. (-Peripheral)



It's disappointing when it's assumed that because someone disagrees with
a point that they haven't read/looked at/studied the issue. Often it means
they disagree and they can actually tell you why they do. It doesn't mean
they're uneducated or stupid. (-Lunacie)

What a bunch of malarky,

someone called my post malarky,

Somehow you twist it that I am calling someone stupid in reply?

But you don't take calling my post being called malarky as wrong in the first place?

Why can't some people see that interaction and respect goes both ways?


It is like saying the person who threw the second punch started the fist fight?






i!i

meadd823
08-01-13, 04:53 PM
Meadd823,

Horse is a mammal, horses run on the first days if life.

So by your logic.

Then humans should be able to run on the first days of life?

I am really disapointed that you don't look into the science before you start using words like malarky to describe my posts.i!i


Not all of your post are malarkey, many of them have very decent points. Even when I do not agree I feel you put a great deal of thought into most of what you believe -


The art of thinking for yourself is more important than whether or not I or any one else agrees with your point of view. Many a great thinkers of our time had their dissents - Having people disagree is part of being in a socially diverse atmosphere. Diversity is healthy . . .

Does breast feeding influence an infant? Sure it does but so does the changing seasons, the passage of time, the interaction with family and the enviroment all of these thing effects all of us to some extent. It is important to realize that these sort of things also effect people who did not develop the traits associated with ADHD

- I do not see breast feeding in and of itself as being a major contributing factor in the development of ADHD -

I was freaking physically hyperactive in the womb as was my hyperactive ADD off spring. My physically active grandson was noticeably so within a few hours of his birth!!!! We each came with a "pre-set" activity level setting of "high"

For the record - I DID look at the science and the methods used to reach the conclusions presented. I personally felt the methodology to be entirely to weak to back up the claims made, hence by previous post about cats keeping elephants out of gardens.

It was a meta-study whose single variation factor of breast feeding was basically a result of mathematical manipulation - I not only looked at the science I actually had a basic understanding of the methodology used - I had a statistician who used to kick my a** regularity in debates.




What a bunch of malarky,

someone called my post malarky,

Somehow you twist it that I am calling someone stupid in reply?

But you don't take calling my post being called malarky as wrong in the first place?

Why can't some people see that interaction and respect goes both ways?


It is like saying the person who threw the second punch started the fist fight?

Fight - Man I am glad some one told me I was fighting - I'm not emotionally invested in the topic enough to actually fight about it. I disagree with a point of view you seem to be backing.


I did not call what you wrote malarkey but what you copied from a book and I think it is. I reserve that right to do so. Barkley adherents get to deal with me doing the same to a lot of his stuff to.


YOU don;t agree with every thing every one else says why should every one be expected to agree with every thing you say.

Intellectual challenges are healthy - I was not disrespectful to you, I was civil, I explained my reasoning.

Some times I do agree with your point of view , this just wasn't one of those times.

meadd823
08-01-13, 05:25 PM
Interesting thought. I bet sensory issues would get in the way as well. I imagine I would find the whole experience extremely unpleasant.


Actually no it wasn't a bad feeling and I am pretty physically touch sensitive myself. Sore nipples for a time until I adjusted. It is quicker and easier than bottle feeding for sure, helped with that after birth tummy tub and constant bloody oozing as well. :D

I am a fan of breast feeding I just don;t think it to be a significant determining factor in the development of ADHD

I breast fed my oldest but my last two were twins so they got both - Daddy never breast fed yet all of girls are just as close their father as they are to me

Another reason the breast feeding bonding thing does not make sense - it makes it sound like Daddy's girls are some unnatural event - If breast feeding is required for bonding how to males bond with their off spring - I am no biologist but I feel pretty safe in assuming they did not do it via breast feeding. :rolleyes:

mildadhd
08-01-13, 05:47 PM
If you tell me breast feeding was not a factor in your life.

I don't doubt you.

If we require 2 out of 3 symptoms.

It is possible that we have 1 in 3 chance of being different ADDly.

So you could be right and I could be right, at the same time?

!i!

meadd823
08-01-13, 06:03 PM
What makes a topic worthy of discussion? = Having many possible answers!

It does not bother me for other members to disagree with my point of view I have a very different perspective than most so I have come accustom to disagreements. I don't want to be insulted no one does nor should they be.

If we all saw the world the same way what in the hell would we have to talk about ?

- I won't even get into just how boring a bunch of people standing around agreeing would get after about post five.

I can always tell when a thread is in conflict by the number of posting it generates in a short period of time - Diversity is stimulating difference are interesting = novelty seeking any one???

In my opinion:

The most important thing about these discussions is the process of thinking and learning , NOT whether or not we agree.

mildadhd
08-01-13, 06:14 PM
..the opioid attachment-reward system..

..the dopamine-based incentive-motivation apparatus..

..the self regulation areas of the prefrontal cortex..

..the stress-response mechanism...


-Gabor Mate M.D., In The Realm Of Hungry Ghosts, P 188



!i!

Lunacie
08-01-13, 06:29 PM
What a bunch of malarky,

someone called my post malarky,

Somehow you twist it that I am calling someone stupid in reply?

But you don't take calling my post being called malarky as wrong in the first place?

Why can't some people see that interaction and respect goes both ways?


It is like saying the person who threw the second punch started the fist fight?



i!i

I didn't twist anything. I merely stated an opinion that I've stated quite a
few times before, on this forum and on other forums.

Using the defense of "You must not have read the same research I did" is
basically saying the person is giving an uninformed opinion.

But you don't actually know whether they've read the same research or not.

All it really means when one person disagrees with what another person
has posted, is that they've drawn a different conclusion.

!

mildadhd
08-01-13, 07:09 PM
I didn't twist anything. I merely stated an opinion that I've stated quite a
few times before, on this forum and on other forums.

Using the defense of "You must not have read the same research I did" is
basically saying the person is giving an uninformed opinion.

But you don't actually know whether they've read the same research or not.

All it really means when one person disagrees with what another person
has posted, is that they've drawn a different conclusion.

!

Looked up the meaning of "malarky", it means "nonsense".

If I called information you posted "nonsense",

I think, I would think I was being rude?

Same goes with the blame game constantly created by some members, when there was no blame game ever being played.

I would not go to a thread I was not interested in, and call the information posted by someone else, nonsense/malarky.

You can't have a relationship without two components.

When someone mentions one factor besides genes, that must exist in at least one relationship, some people get their knickers in a twist.


There are multiple relationships resulting in ADD.


Everyone agrees ADD is multifactoral. (multiple components).

Or do we?

I do think there is multiple components.


You also keep repeating, that you think some posters are repeating.


It goes both ways.






!i!

Lunacie
08-01-13, 07:45 PM
Looked up the meaning of "malarky",

it means "nonsense".

If I called information you posted "nonsense",

I think I would think I was being rude?

I would not go to a thread I was not interested in and call the information posted by someone else, nonsense/malarky.

You can't have a relationship without two components.

When someone mentions one factor besides genes, that must exist (relationship)

some people get their knickers in a twist.


Everyone agrees ADD is multifactoral.





You keep repeating, that you think I am repeating...

!i!

1st: I'm not the one who called anything in your post malarkey.


2nd: You can't really assume that any person who responds to your post
isn't interested in the topic.


3rd: If someone thinks something you quote written by another person
is malarkey, especially if they don't think it pertains to the posted topic,
they have every right to say so.


4th: I wasn't talking about whether using the term "malarkey" was rude or
not. But if I thought you were being deliberately rude, I would use the
report button. That's why we have mods here.


5th: My point was that when someone disagrees with you or with some-
thing you have quoted, the fact that they disagree doesn't mean that if
they had read the same things you've read they'd have the same opinion
you do. Don't assume they haven't read the same things unless they say so.


And none of this has anything to do with the posted topic. Either take it to
PM with the person who upset you, or use the report button. I'm dropping
this now, and I suggest you do the same.

!

Amtram
08-01-13, 07:55 PM
Conflict isn't necessary for a robust discussion. It's equally stimulating to have a discussion of possibilities and potentials when there's valid evidence for various outcomes. I would suggest that it's not only less confrontational but also much more fascinating when the discussion is based on actual potential mechanisms and outcomes rather than supposition and speculation.

sarek
08-02-13, 08:39 AM
Mod note: there have been a few interactions on this thread lately that are not in line with the way a discussion should be conducted and we have already had to make some changes.

Lets all stay cool and collected and try to objectively discuss the topic at hand.

doiadhd
08-03-13, 12:36 AM
horses for courses

does any one else here get worried about
things like

i used to supple off my mum,s breast. . .

as adults we drink cows milk. . .just because we are not
underneath the cow,per say,its still quite high up on the
scale of wrong. . .

they say that cigarette smokers are replacing the nip
with the butt

goats milk!wrong,put hairs on your chin



back to topic
it would all depend on the mothers diet,anyway. . .

and if the mothers favourite food were cheese,and ate
cereals for breakfast,also cups of tea,coffee. . .

wouldn't that just mean the majority of mum,s diet
would be cow,s milk. . .

you could feed eight babies at once,if going for the cow
supple technique. a .

tired

mildadhd
08-03-13, 01:43 AM
"goats milk! wrong, put hairs on your chin" (-Doiadhd)

Someone did call me a nut the other day?

And I do drink a lot of almond milk?


I read when a pig with 8 tits,

gives birth to 9 piglets.

It is essential to get the 9th piglet a bottle.

I don't remember what was in the bottle?

Pigs milk?

I never thought of drinking pigs milk before?

I wonder if there is such a thing as a dairy pig?






i!i

doiadhd
08-03-13, 02:15 AM
[QUOTE=Peripheral;1518691]Someone did call me a nut the other day?

And I do drink a lot of almond milk?


I read when a pig with 8 tits,

gives birth to 9 piglets.

It is essential to get the 9th piglet a bottle.

I don't remember what was in the bottle?

Pigs milk?

I never thought of drinking pigs milk before?

I wonder if there is such a thing as a dairy pig?




not sure if these are rhetorical questions. .
so i,ll answer the dairy pig one. . .

A. i dunno

but pigs and cows have a lot in common
both mammals,with ample mamories,etc

yeah i used to be the runt of the litter,not in
reality but in my mum,s mind,she used to give
me the near,off,milk. . .from the fridge.

doiadhd
08-03-13, 02:35 AM
p . s

perip

think i am a coconut!
ate a bounty bar thee other day

mildadhd
08-03-13, 03:00 AM
Sorry not rhetorical questions, just awful humor.

I am curious to know more about the differences between milks.(including almond milk)



When I was young we used to get milk in plastic bags.

Then one day the milk was in the koolaid jug,

and not in the plastic bag?

I would ask why the milk was in the jug and not in the bags?

Mom would tell me the bags broke.

I believed her, (for a few months).

But in reality Mom was using concentrated milk that she added 3 parts water.

She was sneaky, because she knew, if we knew, she was adding water to the milk.

We would not drink it.

But we didn't know for a few months.

We just thought the milk bags where leaking, and so she poured them in the jug.

Then she told us.






i!i

Lunacie
08-03-13, 03:25 PM
horses for courses

does any one else here get worried about
things like

i used to supple off my mum,s breast. . .

as adults we drink cows milk. . .just because we are not
underneath the cow,per say,its still quite high up on the
scale of wrong. . .

they say that cigarette smokers are replacing the nip
with the butt

goats milk!wrong,put hairs on your chin



back to topic
it would all depend on the mothers diet,anyway. . .

and if the mothers favourite food were cheese,and ate
cereals for breakfast,also cups of tea,coffee. . .

wouldn't that just mean the majority of mum,s diet
would be cow,s milk. . .

you could feed eight babies at once,if going for the cow
supple technique. a .

tired

They used to say that what mother's ate could give their breastfeeding
baby colic. My youngest granddaughter had colic and she was given mostly
baby formula. Her big sister breastfed for over 3 years and never had colic.
I don't think their mother ate anything different, and she stopped smoking
before the second baby was born - the one who did have colic.


I don't remember, did this study in the OP say anything about the role of
the mother's diet in breastfeeding?

doiadhd
08-03-13, 03:52 PM
They used to say that what mother's ate could give their breastfeeding
baby colic. My youngest granddaughter had colic and she was given mostly
baby formula. Her big sister breastfed for over 3 years and never had colic.
I don't think their mother ate anything different, and she stopped smoking
before the second baby was born - the one who did have colic.


I don't remember, did this study in the OP say anything about the role of
the mother's diet in breastfeeding?

oh,that takes me a back three years!
must admit,i am a jedi at soothing colic. . .

top tip,upside down baby cradle,with palm of hand on
stomach,slow swaying motion,rocking the cradle. . .what worked
a treat also,for lots of different stomach problems was,breathing hot air on
stomach,i done that oh naturale. . .works

Sugar,wanted to take a picture of sun set,bloody clouds.
off topic. . .sorry sarek!

mildadhd
08-03-13, 06:20 PM
I wonder about the whole act of breasting feeding,

beating hearts etc, infants missing their old room for 9 months, now separated,

as well what is in the different types of milk?


The hypersensitive ADDer, likely, forgot something back in the womb!

!i!

mildadhd
08-03-13, 06:53 PM
oh,that takes me a back three years!
must admit,i am a jedi at soothing colic. . .

top tip,upside down baby cradle,with palm of hand on
stomach,slow swaying motion,rocking the cradle. . .what worked
a treat also,for lots of different stomach problems was,breathing hot air on
stomach,i done that oh naturale. . .works

Sugar,wanted to take a picture of sun set,bloody clouds.
off topic. . .sorry sarek!


You are a Jedi

I felt the force over the ocean.

I think I completed development of a couple more receptors?

Kinda felt like cuddling up.

Powerful stuff!




i!i

SB_UK
08-05-13, 03:54 PM
http://www.timesofisrael.com/breastfeeding-could-help-kids-beat-adhd-study-shows/

You know - all of these odd solutions 'd disappear if somebody 'd only defined what ADHD is.

- OR ->- AND <

Why are the very vast majority (all people) having such horrible lives ?
Because of the society we live in.

Why is it so rubbish ?
Because it's set up by people who want to retain hierarchy and not people who want to devolve power.

What's the best evolutionary mechanism to stop human beings supporting hierarchical social/power structures ?
Force completion of mind (morality)

How'd evolution do that ?
Change the mind in such a way that it's not predisposed to seeing reality atomistically (eg them and us)

How ?
By changing the logical subunit of mind from OR (them and us) to AND (them and us are the same).

Of course 'them and us' are the same.

Blanched Dubois
08-07-13, 09:45 AM
i've honestly taken time to savor this forum. The many different scientific and humanistic as well as clinical approaches to finding more tactical information about 'executive function' and how ADHD - so prevalent in society now more than ever has come about, how we can understand it from the perspective that it may not be a problem so much for us as it is for 'them' and i've come here to say this about that;

i know physics are closest to describing the experience of the machine of being and i also know that paraphysics is the attempt to humanize or synthesize the 'experience' of the 'human dilemma' - to all these attempts to quantify the very personal and often highly underrated human being that does not 'fit the mold' in the assessment of 'the culture' i've decided that we don't know how to honor that which we do not understand and especially in the 'business world'. The striving for balance and prestige overrules the desire for honest self reflection - that is, conformity over self actualization is the more.

I will contend that ADHD and Broad Spectrum so-called disorders only become true disorders when conformity and power abuse and hidden prejudice from secret admiration twisted into being intimidated and acted out as passive or overt aggression to subdue and force to submit those that don't 'fit the picture' and relegate 'them' to the auspices of 'the mentally ill' because that would be easier than to ask society to broaden their ability to KNOW that they do NOT KNOW why these so called 'inconsistencies of function' are not truly quantifiable to the extent that a diagnosis of ADHD, let's say, is based at best on partial knowledge - as is everything else.

I find it the height of arrogance and proof of 'mans' complete separation from Nature -his own and that which surrounds us. Those of us diagnosed with traits both good and mostly very challenging are only that way due to the demands of societal expectations of our conformity or else....those of us that 'accept' this are doomed to emulate those who enslave us and label us and so control us with pharmaceuticals and unspoken but widely agreed upon societal behaviors toward us in which we are considered a financial burden and worse sub human species that are defective rather than - possibly - the reason and proof of an evolved mind/body evolving further and faster than the 'masses'.
The appointed 'authorities' including those who seem to strive for real understanding of how and why ADD exists are admirable and they do nothing for human experience of a quality and enjoyment of our lives so much as they do for their own need for more funding to publish more and more hypothetical clinical suppositions about an electrical system that is as unknown today as it is and has been since time immemorial.

If you are hell bent on seeking a 'cure' for 'executive function' issues I propose we rather spend our money and time educating the clinicians, educators and public on learning to remove the not only condescending attitudes that are rooted in not caring for that which requires effort to respectfully admit is misunderstood at best and at worst deemed defective and so time spent with those of us with broad spectrum 'disorders' is often one in which the treatment is worse than the disorder itself - ie; money and funding for schools - insurance companies and our healthcare systems do not wish to operate humanistically so until the greed is addressed and these trogladite attitudes toward those of us who are far more evolved and unified are addressed there will be nothing but clinicians publishing articles that are vain attempts to persuade a sleeper world who will never even read these articles unless educators show some interest in finding out what they might learn by those of us who are deemed 'ill' rather than possibly quite advanced.

When you accept that you do not know - that NO ONE has proven or knows - why and how the body electric works and why it is not uniform in all human beings that is when real research will begin to be meaningful to those of us who hold this premise i'm struggling to present with respect to the clinical community supporting us as best they can in a world that has and would if it could throw us into an institution and throw away the key - as done in our past history.

Big mouths are needed now. To ask questions that challenge the established thought process that still doesn't get that it does not have a clue how the synapses firing the electrical body/mind/continuum are really beyond our current comprehension is the start.

I reject the labels. I summarily reject the concept that ADHD is at all understood for what it really is by virtue of those of us who led supremely successful lives marrying for love, career success and stability and community/spiritual balanced action for decades and then when hardship hits as it will - that is when our 'disorder' becomes a hardship.

This means to me that it is a sick society and its sick people sleepers seeking consistency and demanding comformity are the ones who must be healed as it is they who are the problem. They are the 'mentally/physically/emotionally/spiritually ill ones.

We tolerate them and are compassionate until there is no more energy left for such colossal restraint for their comfort and it is time for us to be comforted and catered to and neither gets this in society - it's fractured.

Until community becomes as important to the health and well being of ALL it's members there is a schizophrenic overlay we are forced to contend with and the irony is huge.

We, in this human dilemma, are ALL highly unique walking human field generators that science at it's best has the least grasp imaginable on in terms of how and why some are different than others and in the end it does nothing for humanity's need to begin to wake up which is far more important than sleepwalking and labeling and consistent effort to maintain a status quo built on - essentially - mass hypnosis to remain a slave and asleep.

This is why Einstein spent his energies tantalized with 'unified field theory' - as i am not a credential'd or 'authority' on anything but my self - i will end with the thread - i breastfed my son - the year before my marriage and our planned pregnancy we were not sure we had a chance to have ( hubby did two tours in 'Nam special forces - exposed to herbacides - horrors - and malaria that kills you unless you are lucky - he survived lol but in his first marriage tried to have children and failed ) so i was ok with not having children considering my childhood nightmare and the heinous infant abuse resulting in core ptsd for me - why bring this upon a child - and i still married for love and aquiesced to not having kids.

I did a year of chinese medicine tinctures as i often fast and cleanse my body - i enjoyed working with Ron in Venice CA - i found the eastern medical approach far more interesting and i'd been ok with my ADHD - i didn't enjoy so much solitude often - but prefered not drinking and partying to reading and music alone - my husband was similar due to ptsd from nam and the resultant many physical issues - my point is

i got pregnant -had a most enjoyable 9 months and ended up with a trauma birth due only to the malpractice and neglect of my HMO DR who deemed a code blue gunshot more important than my need for an epidural and help with a difficult birth.

I was shot up with so much demerol to 'shut me up' that my husband and the only person by my side the entire 3 days and from midnight on oct 18 to 5:42am he witnessed nurses shooting me up with demerol so that i blacked out but screamed evidently with each contraction - i was brought to consciousness by the DR who at last arrived and had to keep reviving me to get my son out who had also od'd in the womb andd birth canal

they sliced me down there and pulled him out and hadd to revive him

i set this as an example of what happens when A, we have no support or we are so much more interested in not making waves and being 'cool' that we put lives at risk - had I been my husband I would have found the f'ng DR and demanded their attendance and i'd have roundhouse kicked the demerol hounding nurse and told her to get a DR or be sued for millions. My hubby tried but he is and was a lot 'nicer' than me.

He loved my mouth and he loved my devotion. I loved him for him. I never blame anyone including myself - i do however open my big mouth and call the truth out and i will always do it and i have no issue as death is easy it's living that's the rough part.

The year of cleansing with chinese stuff and no smoking - i never drink - led to an easy pregnancy only marred by the callousness of the HMO and no one to support my husband during this trauma. My mom lived less than an hour away but said 'you don't mind if i don't come till the week after' - yeah - i still didn't believe she didn't care or love me, i did however know i thought she was a consummate scumbag.

I've determined to sum this up - forgive me - my soul is in my body and came back due to years of work shamanically and trust in a process I had no demands on in terms of 'proof' needed. The journey is the all.

My soul is here to stand on it's own two feet and to speak my truth. I knew as a child as a severely beat up physically infant, toddler and child that she could abuse away but never touched my soul. I had a witness in me and I heard the info and I had no one else that cared so i went within and I learned from 'that' which science has no ability to define to their satisfaction.

I have never wanted or needed approval. I knew I didn't need to 'become' anything as I came in - as do we all - already who I AM. Fortunately, in my opinion, I never heeded others and i took my learning from within and from books and music and a rare few who too were seated from their soul. Unafraid - and humble. Not false and loads of fun. The quality of life based on humor, love intimacy and safety to speak truth - feel our feelings and honor them to make our relations more authentic not to be drama kings and queens because FEELINGS examined are either ours and must be examined if they repeat especially - or = viewed as 'others' we are picking up and so must let pass with blessings

all is sacred

and all is not what it appears - and that is due to a much higher principle at work in creation that in effect shows us a very important basic building block for all of life - the surface of a thing may not be the entire make up of that 'thing' - and life is not what we think it is ....this knowing that we only know at best partial truths is where humility comes from and where honesty lives.

Breastfeeding my son was wonderful. He is and was lovely and when he started school is when his 'issues' began...

The world is now going to witness the synthesis of science and art in the form of the study of non genetically modified seeds plants etc and it's interraction with humans who address the deity of that item along with it's purely physical attributes and of course Findhorn is the greatest example of how this defies all that we think we know and must give us cause to stop and say - what do we know for sure??????

We, each of us, have a purpose. To be who we are with nothing added - to be brave enough to know ourselves first, to be true to that self above all and to extend our love and light in and out of the darkness that would call itself our master.

Acceptance is good as long as you also know that it is your OWN and not really influenced by the outside at all unless you are asleep and in conformity for the sake of looking good and fitting in rather than living a life authentic and at risk - which is the reality like it or not...on this plane we are born live and die - to the worms our body goes and the soul - that is the question, no?

So, i propose the experiment is more fun and productive when humans decide that they are open to receive the wisdom inherent in them that brought them 'here now' and to access that information in any way that suits you - to go within -to reject the 'authorities' and culture for the prospect of self discovery and that means you can't be a coward or lazy.

One of my inspiring mentors was a great coach for athletes and he said 'Fatigue makes cowards of us all' - and i'm gonna telll you that 'fatigue' is your clue that your spirit and your soul are trying to reach you to tell you to MOVE out of your comfort zone and challenge yourself to find out what's really going on in you - and to take steps for your quality of life NOW and HERE - this is it.

Everyone has issues if they're alive. Society is sick and dying. A new humanity is rising.
The spiral of life is at the lowest descent of that cycle neverending - and it's on it's way back up - imagine the symbol for infinity. We, at the nadir of that spiral heading back up

it's an opportunity to receive from a higher source information that comes in a flash to glimpse or grasp - that's how it works -and our job is to love ourselves enough to use what we get for the good of ALL - because it is when we serve the greater good that we are healed fully of our core beliefs causing ALL dis-ease.

As above so below as within so without ~ We are not the problem We are the solution.

It's time to be accountable to our lazy fatigue that buys into the culture that says we're the sick ones. I am clear I am not the 'sick' one. And, I know I ain't alone. I may be a minority as I operate much differently than most i've met - i don't and knew i never did need 'credentials' as my word and behavior were always congruent. Hence, i was given huge honors from the beginning of my career to the end of it and i had no special 'degrees' i knew i had no use for as I am not here to convince or to prove anything - i'm just here to be who I AM and that was and is ALL that has created abundance, humor, love and intimacy and community - i am deeply loved and I love deeply and I'm clear that this is what is lacking in most label'd patients who the culture feels is an obstruction to their bottom line profits.

We all lie. Especially to ourselves and we're unconscious of it mostly and we all sell out and its easy, but the real work is often easy and demanding and it's why we're here...and the 'real' work is only done by YOU.

ADHD is a societal dis-ease because society is the disease as it is and until it is viewed as the real root of all illness is addressed those of us with EF problems must start to speak up and question the authorities and lobby in our gov'ts to take a new approach to this most underrated and misunderstood 'illness' - that only is a problem when we are forced to fit into a moronic system at best.

thanks for letting me get this off my chest - i dont' propose throwing the baby out with the bathwater - i do propose a more enlightened and challenging approach to our 'leaders' letting them no in no uncertain terms just how F'd up they are in their complacency and secret devotion to the almighty ego and prestige over real health and quality of living for all.