View Full Version : Why do human beings make everything


SB_UK
08-24-13, 10:12 AM
dirty ?

someothertime
08-24-13, 10:40 AM
Can't answer that one SB... but I saw 2 pigeons in a park today that might argue were not dirty enough ;)

peripatetic
08-24-13, 10:41 AM
hmmm...

i mean...literally...

i would say...we ingest things...we consume things...and we excrete waste. our bodies, to run, are processing things into literal ****. we also expel carbon dioxide...etc...we lay waste to things to keep ourselves running...

but then...trees need carbon dioxide...and fecal matter is basically fertilizer...the nitrogen...i think (?)..unsure on that bit...

but so...yeah...we make everything dirty...but...dirt is what makes everything grow... so...we're really just part of that cycle...we make filth...which is the bedrock for making beauty...

i dont' know if that helps...but...i get feeling like we're just these ugly gobbling things that...just make...ugly gobbly things and ever bigger ones at that.

but...there is a way that we can be...not exclusively that, i think that we can also be, we are also by virtue of being literally, part of a larger (sometimes/potentially/additionally) wondrous whole and there is that dialectical process that requires antithesis...and maybe...that's the thing... maybe we don't get to be thesis...we are antithesis a lot of the time...but that makes the synthesis possible and the dialectic moves forward...and we grow...and are part of all that is...which...think about how dirty...how filthy a farmer's hands get from working in the fields...but out of that...is harvested life and joy and sustenance in not just nutritive ways...but feeding people...is connecting...is building relationships with the world and others...and also just literally sustaining life.

which takes some dirty ****...and we're so ...i mean humanity has some remarkable qualities...and some truly ...unfortunate ones manifest at times... but i dont' think we can be anything without being everything really...and there may be hope for us yet...dirty as we are...and as we make things... maybe some humility would be good for at least not rotting in the dirt...not festering...but cultivating from it.

i dont' know that i think literal dirt...earth...which is dirty...but fecund...is all that different from how i conceive what would be...like...well...this is in spirituality/meditation...so, not all that different from whatever other dirt there is. i think it's out of filth...we find the plants reaching out for the sun...if we didn't make things filthy...maybe we wouldn't see the light..not in an "in contrast way"...but more...in perspective and with appreciation for both..and for the journey between....and back around...ever in process of being becoming. yeah..i dont' know that we ever stop carrying all that **** with us...because that's what historicity is,yeah..? but..that's what makes us having been...the persons we create dragging around all that ****...carving out self...and hopefully not only seeing the ****...but seeing it becoming...and having made it as authentically as possible such that we would say...encore!

x

oh...but..yeah...if i'm off the mark and you just mean humans can be nasty petty vile and cruel beings...yeah...i feel you on that too. x

SB_UK
08-24-13, 11:02 AM
Just listening to this for the first time.
http://www.theguardian.com/music/2013/jun/09/boards-canada-tomorrows-harvest-review
"the prospect of a dystopian future. Their album's title, Tomorrow's Harvest, echoes that of a US "family preparedness" website selling dried food and survivalist supplies in the event of the breakdown of civilisation."

And the funny thing is that most of what I eat is dried these days - mostly nuts, seeds, protein powder and fruit ... ...
Problem is that we'll only ever become civilized with the break down of so-called 'civilization'.

SB_UK
08-24-13, 11:09 AM
Survivalism - is how it might feel - but it's actually personal autonomy which is being pointed to.

To be able to subsist without parasitic human beings demanding rent on whatever they can get away with.

Sun-conditional - we need little else more.

peripatetic
08-24-13, 11:10 AM
but such is the course of all life, yeah? rebirth requires destruction...creation...paradigm shift...there is that pattern...i do fear plastics, i'll say...but maybe...i dont' konw...i'm so...lacking in ...i've not been good with predicting outcome...so...yeah...plastics...

anyway...i'm going to not dwell on that


but i will say...all civilization has risen and fallen...and the razing makes for raising...not always better...not necessarily worse...but there is something in the ebb and flow that we mark out in time that...i do think it makes perfect sense that for there to be something created in earnest...something must be destroyed...equally...in earnest.


interesting about the dried food, by the way. i feel like of late...everything i eat is fresh. i only want fresh veg...fresh fruit...fresh fresh fresh...like i'm trying to make MYSELF fresh...or maybe it's just coming into autumn and i'm trying to make it spring instead. dried would certainly be more fitting. preparing for metamorphosis..cocooning...less volume, more energy contained within...i just want everything voluminous maybe..hmm...interesting we're on opposites there...you seem more in tune with northern hemisphere seasons...

anyway...now to see article...

SB_UK
08-24-13, 11:11 AM
All of the various images of global apocalypse which we're immersed in
- are actually pointing to a future society of individual autonomy -

freed from compulsion levied on man by his fellow man.

SB_UK
08-24-13, 11:13 AM
anyway...now to see article...

Can you get the album ?

They're very good.

peripatetic
08-24-13, 11:18 AM
Can you get the album ?

They're very good.

well...after reading that i definitely want to get it!

you have it?

stef
08-24-13, 11:23 AM
i think it all comes down to greed
at the same time humans have created some truly beautiful things
there are some positive things like new "green" self sustaining buildings with garden rooftops, in cities,
but its just a drop in the bucket when you think of "frak mining" etc.
i guess im interpreting this from a totally envrionmental view.

peripatetic
08-24-13, 11:36 AM
All of the various images of global apocalypse which we're immersed in
- are actually pointing to a future society of individual autonomy -

freed from compulsion levied on man by his fellow man.

hmmm....

i think more often than not i want that. like...i want that freedom.

but then...there's some..

i need people.

i could do without a lot ...and there are wayyyy too many just generally...

but...i think similitude... seeing and being seen...but more than that...

as much as i definitely agree with you that there is that ...grotesque exploitation and how crushing that is ...how unjust it certainly looks from my vantage point...and how...

it makes me almost want to be a kantian. not strictly deontological...but for there to be justice somehow...for there to be...ethical desert...but of course...that's problematic as well...for how can there be restitution given how vulnerable we are to ....life..and facticity...and...how feeble we are against so much...

sometimes i think maybe...it's not that we currently lack autonomy...it's that we lack the fortitude, or the circumstances, to do more than mourn it's slow death with each passing day that we are for whatever reason...unable to manifest it as we need or truly want....

but then...ok...so even if we are a society of individual autonomy... can we BE a society? i want to say that that's possible...that there can be peaceable, non exploitative co-being becoming...but... if truly individual...the will of some will be in opposition to permitting the will of others...

society ...it thrives...perhaps even requires to exist...marking out what it "is" not just by what it manifests...but by what it excludes. not just ...like...excludes from being part of at all...but excludes from full participation. i'm reminded of foucault...the history of insanity...though he didnt' take it where i'im about to...but it's an interesting read. anyway...there has long been that marking out of what's real...what's sane...by ensuring what's INsane is clearly identified...and thus stigma against what those in analytical a priori fashion defined as, by the same people who are doing the labeling, the mentally unfit takes root...

it's still here though...it's everywhere...because it's in the minds not just of those who fancy themselves sane and good and productive and doing what's socially good or whatever...it's not just them preying...there's a cannibalism at work that i see...and until we can accept and at least let live and ideally not exploit (by trying to make one "legitimate" by invalidating some other) all those who struggle...we're not struggling together...we're struggling against each other. we don't need anyone to oppress us...we do such a fine job dividing up ourselves...deciding this or that type is more/less legitimate...more/less worthy of self determination...of being respected...of being treated like a person...of being at all... i hold out some amount of ...not hope...hope is like...i dont' know...i hold out some amount of *please* that it might be possible to not just feed off each other...but ...i dont' know that i see it coming to fruition in such a unilateral way...witout some...massive shift maybe my mind can't even conceive of...

SB_UK
08-24-13, 11:45 AM
This is wonderful

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11SzQHWlDiE


at the same time humans have created some truly beautiful things

What if human beings have only ever created truly beautiful 'virtual' things like music.

The rest [in the material world] just decays away to nothing.

SB_UK
08-24-13, 11:46 AM
Nothing is real.

SB_UK
08-24-13, 11:51 AM
When do people actually get to understand that nothing is real ?

That we're just an evolutionary hologram created out of NO-thing.

That Mercedes Benz, designer suit or jewellery is just a testament to an individual's lack of sight.

peripatetic
08-24-13, 11:59 AM
but then...that's utterly possible...that i'm just not seeing far enough..or widely enough...or...freshly enough...i think it is difficult for me sometimes to see all of the possibilities congealing at a point where there is...

reminds me of this one, especially the bit about pleasing people...but then change that to...not exploiting people...and imagining how it'd go with society of all of the people having individual autonomy all of the time:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF_VfUt6n2c

from the first time i heard that song to listening to it now... it seems like his next line is clearly the only thing to say in the midst of everything and everyone around and the prospects as they appear...

sb, i'll let you be in my dream, if i can be in yours ;-) x

SB_UK
08-24-13, 12:07 PM
The rest [in the material world] just decays away to nothing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkYT277gESQ

peripatetic
08-24-13, 12:13 PM
When do people actually get to understand that nothing is real ?

That we're just an evolutionary hologram created out of NO-thing.

That Mercedes Benz, designer suit or jewellery is just a testament to an individual's lack of sight.

well...i tend to think that either nothing is...or everything is, in the way most define "real". and people are really really attached to matter. to things with mass and extension, i mean...and i think it's got something to do with our corporeality, obviously, but also our concerns about finitude...about mortality...everything in our experience is just confirming table thumping realism and with "body death" there is...nothing resembling "person" left...and so it seems like a reasonable conclusion that "us" is matter...that without matter...there is no person... what if there were no matter at all? holy ****! *inconceivable*

right...because i think that strikes many as the negation of self...and inspires embrace of matter as plenitude of self...

i think it's all just different closed systems and the beauty of being is being able to work within a variety provided one doesn't get ....like...hmmm...we can move around between systems and see what each provides and so forth...but recognizing them all as just that: closed systems that are internally consistent and prove themselves...but whose workings...only work WITHIN THAT system...you can't apply the workings of one to a different one...that has completely different presuppositions and deals with completely different subject matter/modes of being/etc.

there is only real in spheres of ....in systems where that's part of the framework. in some..."real" isn't defined the same way. i think i understand what you mean...but i can see that there's..."real"...it's all real...and equally...none of it is...if what is real is what is experienced...then i go with all of it is...but if what is real is what is more than just a function or component of a closed system operating and justifying its operations by its own definitions...then none of it is...but only because something...what is able to operate...us...is real...and in contrast to the static systems we can inhabit/operate under/test...or not.

SB_UK
08-24-13, 12:38 PM
"When you hear the beep
It will be three o'clock,"
She said that for over an hour
And I hung it up.

Well, now time passed and now it seems
Everybody's having them dreams.pm written this morning

am having the same feeling over and over again - that I'm waiting for something to happen.
And nothing happens ... ...
It's a horrible feeling of deja vu - you know with the average new song on the radio, or new story or shock headline in medicine etc etc
- it's like we're stuck in a hole in time
- where the exact same thing repeats itself over and over again.
Was just talking to a nurse whilst my wife was in hospital - and the Take That phenomenon! has become the One direction phenomenon!
- exactly the same as it was before ... ...
It's like life is a repeat -
do you understand what I mean ?
It's a little disturbing."When you hear the beep
It will be three o'clock,"
She said that for over an hour
And I hung it up.Waiting for something to happen.

SB_UK
08-24-13, 12:40 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdglpRwhoQE

Waiting for the sun.

peripatetic
08-24-13, 12:41 PM
i love this album!

i just listened to this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qwz9Ue4RH-w


i recall esh talked about this group (which...of *course* he talked about it given they're boards of *canada*)...and though i sadly don't recall listening to specifically...though i'm sure i did because that's how that went...their music is enchanting

SB_UK
08-24-13, 12:42 PM
Time to make this clean decision
Master waits for it's collision now
It's a repeat of a story told
It's a repeat and it's getting old

Equality (global) or bust - in a quite unpleasant way.

SB_UK
08-24-13, 12:46 PM
i love this album!

i just listened to htis one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qwz9Ue4RH-w


mmmm.... listening now.

So nice when the thoughts of human competition, competitive quotes and subterfuge - melt away.

It's like people are wearing infinitely reloadable 'neighbour'-seeking missiles.

SB_UK
08-24-13, 12:48 PM
new seeds = emergence

adders - new - enforcedly social reward system predisposed

- we self-medicate in all the wrong things when we can't do the right thing.

We are the lotus kids
Better take note - for the story.

peripatetic
08-24-13, 12:59 PM
pm written this morning

Waiting for something to happen.

i do. i hear you, i mean.

i've felt like i can't stop anticipating what doesn't come to pass...maybe am still... and also like someone hit a repeat button but then...or well...have had things just keep...running recurring congealing same thing cropping up here...there...now...yesterday...everywhere. out of nowhere. it is kinda like... is the universe trying to tell me something? if so...get on with the next. or is this supposed to be like a groundhog's day thing and i don't get to advance. it is disturbing. if we're talking about the same sorts of things...even if not exact...perhaps enough so to identify. what you said made sense, i mean.

you know what song i almost posted as neglected proper title...and then was like...oh..no...that's not the spoken word song about the world war dream... that's the song about...having found understanding...and reminiscing and longing for just a moment of having it again...

not entirely unrelated to this thread, i'd say...sad insofar as not seeing again...but what we give each other however brief...can be... well, when it punctuates everything else... like, the pair bonding you've talked about. that idea of...there being a compliment...but on a more... that maybe we find that in each other and feel less alone.

whilst waiting

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWpLtkFanIA

SB_UK
08-24-13, 01:04 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jTg-q6Drt0

'Eyes that would see', or zombie parasitizing planetary.

SB_UK
08-24-13, 01:17 PM
whilst waiting


Where we longed for nothin' and were satisfied


The snippets we get prior to
- becomes the default state after attaining enlightenment.

One no longer wants, desires anything.
Is satisfied.

Dylan would be right to include that vision in his dream
- it's the only dream worth having
- because it's the one which can come true.

And when it does, it's as good as one imagined it'd be.

peripatetic
08-24-13, 01:30 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jTg-q6Drt0

'Eyes that would see', or zombie parasitizing planetary.

i was just listening to that one

beginning...bit overwhelming for some reason

but then it smooths out or the novelty of whatever was verging on unsettling fades...and then is lovely

SB_UK
08-24-13, 01:31 PM
Can't answer that one SB... but I saw 2 pigeons in a park today that might argue were not dirty enough ;)

Rise of the pest to handle human habits.

There's such an easy solution.

To begin again.

peripatetic
08-24-13, 01:45 PM
One no longer wants, desires anything.
Is satisfied.

have you ever experienced that?

i have

once
maybe less...completely a few other times
but the once...was...if i did nothing else or everything else or whatever should come to pass or has or is now...that was plenitude. it was enough. it filled everything without privation, but also without excess.

i wouldn't've thought to term it attaining enlightenment...and it certainly ultimately...not that it didn't last...but the world kept moving...and i with it--i'm pretty sure i'm not one having attained something people spend their lives to accomplish...or not. so not suggesting those terms apply to/describe me overall...

but what i envision when i read that description...i've felt something that seems an awful lot like it. it's still enough. that will always have been/will be/etc...despite my ...yeah...i am susceptible to wanting and seeking and feeling unsatisfied. but that once does...still reverberate. if that makes sense. and it makes it all seem frivolous and trite...though...frivolous and trite can occupy...and...being still has never been my forte...stasis of a sort actually kinda skeeves me out. i'm pretty sure i have very negative connotations associated with it..despite there being obvious benefits depending upon context/content to which it as quality predicated.

Lunacie
08-24-13, 01:57 PM
Just listening to this for the first time.
http://www.theguardian.com/music/2013/jun/09/boards-canada-tomorrows-harvest-review
"the prospect of a dystopian future. Their album's title, Tomorrow's Harvest, echoes that of a US "family preparedness" website selling dried food and survivalist supplies in the event of the breakdown of civilisation."

And the funny thing is that most of what I eat is dried these days - mostly nuts, seeds, protein powder and fruit ... ...
Problem is that we'll only ever become civilized with the break down of so-called 'civilization'.

I know the discussion has already moved on from this but I wanted to point
out that food preservation has been with us since very early times, drying,
brining, smoking, fermenting, pickling, etc.

Fresh in season, preserved the rest of the time. The year round availability of
fresh foods is relatively recent.

Lunacie
08-24-13, 02:01 PM
The snippets we get prior to
- becomes the default state after attaining enlightenment.

One no longer wants, desires anything.
Is satisfied.

Dylan would be right to include that vision in his dream
- it's the only dream worth having
- because it's the one which can come true.

And when it does, it's as good as one imagined it'd be.

Hm ...

I once decided to be satisfied with my life.

I was satisfied with being emotionally abused and disrespected by my
husband. I should have left him or kicked him to the curb much sooner
... but I was "satisfied with the way things were."

ana futura
08-24-13, 02:33 PM
When do people actually get to understand that nothing is real ?

That we're just an evolutionary hologram created out of NO-thing.


Why does a thing need to exist beyond a certain point in time to be "real"?
Everything is real, in this moment. It is the fragility of life that makes it precious. Our constant quest to extend our existences beyond this moment is the problem, but this moment is very, very real.

peripatetic
08-24-13, 03:33 PM
Hm ...

I once decided to be satisfied with my life.

I was satisfied with being emotionally abused and disrespected by my
husband. I should have left him or kicked him to the curb much sooner
... but I was "satisfied with the way things were."

lunacie...i have nothing but compassion for you for the trauma you endured. and i definitely am glad that you became DISsatistied with being abused and exploited.

i do want to note, however, that i really don't think that is the type of "satisfaction" that was being discussed on this thread. it absolutely wasn't remotely what i was describing when i talked about the....plenitude i have felt...there was not...there was nothing negative or sinister latent or explicit in that experience and i hope you see that the way you're defining satisfaction...being "satisfied" with your life ...i maybe am unclear on where you saw that tying in actually.

perhaps some clarity? did you see the discussion on satisfaction, etc...as being... stagnant? as relinquishing hope ? i think we're using the same word in two very different ways. which,granted, words mean different things to different people insofar as we identify this or that experience as being "word"...but we're using them very differently insofar as i wouldn't personally describe times i've felt in ways that to me seem even slightly to resemble your personal experience, which i did not have and am in no position to say how that felt for you. but...i have resigned myself to suffering...that is the phrasing i would use. i have tried to find...purpose in suffering...connected some meaning that made it ok, or legitimate...or even the only viable reality averrable to me...so may as well figure out how to live...and let go of trying to change it because that is (or appears) futile.

that is very different from what i was talking about and, while i'm not going to presume to speak for SB better than he can speak for himself...unless i have GRIEVOUSLY misunderstood not just that post...but a considerable portion of his worldview and, just bottom line: unless i have no idea what he's talking about and have seriously misunderstood/misinterpreted his thoughts/writing/position.... i cannot see how that's what he was talking about either. not saying everything is rosy...but i wouldn't identify the suffering you endured with finding satisfaction...you were being actively, imminently and directly personally viciously hurt...that is necessarily incommensurate with the sort of satisfaction i was talking about. what i was talking about was probably the...maybe even only time...iv'e ever truly been at peace with my life.

again...i am glad that you came to find DISsatisfaction with what was being perpetrated against you and wish you well in continuing to live a life without that in it...it takes considerable strength to venture into the unknown and leave an abusive situation...and i mean no disrespect in saying that i think your situation is radically different from what i took the term to mean and how i intended it. if it makes it easier...

plenitude...and peace. maybe those are the terms i will use for my experience as i do think it's worthwhile to distinguish.

cheers for reading.


EDIT: no...you know...itwasn't just that...those aren't good terms... let's just say that i was sated...yes...sated. i did not "want"...becauaes i did not "need". satiety...yes. akin to the idea that there's thinking...not thinking...and without thinking. analogously...there's wanting/needing, not wanting/needing....without want/need.

Lunacie
08-24-13, 05:31 PM
but...i have resigned myself to suffering...that is the phrasing i would use. i have tried to find...purpose in suffering...connected some meaning that made it ok, or legitimate...or even the only viable reality averrable to me...so may as well figure out how to live...and let go of trying to change it because that is (or appears) futile.
.

But ... that is what I was trying to do ... make it okay because it seemed
to be the only viable alternative ... I did love him so I was trying to figure
out how to live with him/the situation.

I didn't have the courage to say "I can do better than this."

Ironically at the time I was very fond of the prayer that goes:
god grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage
to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

peripatetic
08-24-13, 06:57 PM
right...what i meant was that's what i've done...but that's NOT what i meant by "satisfied"...and why if that's "being satisfied" i think what i and if i'm understanding properly, sb, were talking about something different than that.

what i described above was NOT what i'd 've called being satisfied...it was reconciling self...etc...

what we were talking about in that other exchange...was satiety :-)

Lunacie
08-24-13, 08:19 PM
right...what i meant was that's what i've done...but that's NOT what i meant by "satisfied"...and why if that's "being satisfied" i think what i and if i'm understanding properly, sb, were talking about something different than that.

what i described above was NOT what i'd 've called being satisfied...it was reconciling self...etc...

what we were talking about in that other exchange...was satiety :-)

Are you speaking of satiety in terms of food/hunger/satiation?

If so, I didn't realize you both meant it in such a limited way.

peripatetic
08-25-13, 03:31 AM
no...i msut not be being clear...

i will try again later..:-)

banshe
08-25-13, 04:35 PM
We only think we make everything.