View Full Version : Medical/Life Science workers in trouble.


SB_UK
09-03-13, 09:54 AM
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v500/n7464/full/nj7464-613a.html

Studies suggest that burnout among medical doctors has reached epidemic proportions around the world, accompanied by alarmingly high levels of clinical depression, suicidal thoughts, job dissatisfaction and unhappiness with work–life balance1 (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v500/n7464/full/nj7464-613a.html#ref1). The data are so compelling that some health organizations and physician groups are exploring ways to tackle these problems2 (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v500/n7464/full/nj7464-613a.html#ref2).Almost nothing is known, however, about stress, burnout and morale among biomedical scientists.

In addition to conducting our own survey, we have talked to people at other institutions, and examined relevant publications3 (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v500/n7464/full/nj7464-613a.html#ref3), 4 (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v500/n7464/full/nj7464-613a.html#ref4). As a result, we conclude that the discontent at MD Anderson [in biomedical researchers] is emblematic of distressingly low morale at centres around the country.
Care about medical / life science researchers ?

Then do the only rational thing.

Put them all out of their misery ... ... by ... ...
introducing preventative [see Epidemiology The Brave] schemes so there's no disease and so no longer any need for 'em

- and they're free to fast, meditate ... ... whilst walking their dogs in the sun - 24/7 365 days a year until death does return us back from whence we came.

Amtram
09-03-13, 10:29 AM
How do you propose that disease be eliminated if we don't find out what causes it? Ignoring it doesn't make it go away, it makes it worse.

Right now in Pakistan, it's polio season, but terrorists are putting medical workers in danger by killing them if they try to vaccinate children. Pakistan has the highest rate of this vaccine-preventable disease in the world, and is one of the few places in which it hasn't been eradicated by vaccine. We know how it's transmitted because of scientific research, and we know how to prevent it because of scientific research.

We also know that lifestyle changes have no impact on it because of its highly contagious nature. The only prevention is vaccination.

And this is only one example; there are millions. There is no single prevention that protects against all the possible infectious diseases, age-related illnesses, and genetic conditions that exist in the human population.

SB_UK
09-03-13, 03:26 PM
We also know that lifestyle changes have no impact on it because of its highly contagious nature. http://www.polioeradication.org/Polioandprevention.aspx

polio and prevention

Polio is then shed into the environment through the faeces where it can spread rapidly through a community, especially in situations of poor hygiene and sanitation.

SB_UK
09-03-13, 03:27 PM
There is no single prevention that protects against all the possible infectious diseases, age-related illnesses, and genetic conditions that exist in the human population.

Psychological stress-free living - in a ketogenic state would do it.

Amtram
09-03-13, 03:33 PM
From the same link you just quoted:

Polio is a crippling and potentially fatal infectious disease. There is no cure, but there are safe and effective vaccines. The strategy to eradicate polio is therefore based on preventing infection by immunizing every child until transmission stops and the world is polio-free.

(my bold.)Poor sanitation does not spread the disease, just helps it spread faster. In fact, in the very link you provided, nowhere does it even hint that better hygiene would be preventive in any way. It states in several places, though, that vaccination is effective.

SB_UK
09-03-13, 03:44 PM
My default position would be that given psychological stress-free living - in a ketogenic state, that the very vast majority of diseases would be eradicated.

There may be a period of transition in which some vaccines are required ... .. it's even possible ? that a vaccine may be required a few years into a new global societal infrastructure

- but it's too early to say just yet.

We need that world and then to play it by ear.

SB_UK
09-03-13, 03:46 PM
Besides - the point is that doctors of medicine/life science aren't having fun.

If people aren't having fun - then it's a shame to have people wasting their lives in that way - just to make money.

Everybody dies.

My dentist wanted to be a sculptor, and just yesterday a medically qualified chap mentioned to me that many of his colleagues feel trapped by the medicine - you've a career path and must adhere to it from school to retirement.

Pretty dull huh? I can see why the clever ones ditch clinical comittment and come and live the high life in medical research.

Champagne, working from home, free travel across the globe, interviews on the TV and radio, fancy titles conferred on 'em by friends at other Universities.

Abi
09-03-13, 03:47 PM
Forbes (I think it was Forbes) recently listed Life Science jobs as the two MOST lucrative professions, in the US, with the largest scope for growth. Biotechnical Engineering was at #1. I think Biochem or something similar was #2.

As an aside, I was pleasantly surprised that my own fields, Computer Sc and Software Eng came in at #s 3 and 4 respectively

Abi
09-03-13, 03:51 PM
Excuse me, Bio MEDICAL Engineering is #1
Biochem is indeed #2

12 of the 15 fields listed are Science / Engineering fields.

Amtram
09-03-13, 03:56 PM
There is no evidence that diet prevents disease. There is, on the other hand, mounds of evidence both current and historic that point to diet having no benefit in disease resistance. If you're exposed to a pathogen (or parasite, or toxic agent) you're at risk to become ill. Germ Theory is a well-established medical fact.

Dizfriz
09-03-13, 05:35 PM
Besides - the point is that doctors of medicine/life science aren't having fun.

If people aren't having fun - then it's a shame to have people wasting their lives in that way - just to make money.

SB having fun is not a necessity. Sometimes getting a feeling of satisfaction and pride with what you do can be a far stronger incentive.


Dizfriz

Lunacie
09-03-13, 06:08 PM
There is no evidence that diet prevents disease. There is, on the other hand, mounds of evidence both current and historic that point to diet having no benefit in disease resistance. If you're exposed to a pathogen (or parasite, or toxic agent) you're at risk to become ill. Germ Theory is a well-established medical fact.

I can't believe I'm agreeing with SB here, but I do think diet influences
some diseases. Not the kind of disease associated with germ theory, but
heart disease and diabetes for instance. Since my granddaughter was
diagnosed with diabetes (type 2) we are following a more ketogenic diet
(lo carb) in our home.

It's what I should have done when my hubby had his first heart attack, but
considering he still stopped for fast food and cigarettes, it might not have
made much difference.

namazu
09-03-13, 06:23 PM
I can't believe I'm agreeing with SB here, but I do think diet influences some diseases. Not the kind of disease associated with germ theory, but heart disease and diabetes for instance. Since my granddaughter was diagnosed with diabetes (type 2) we are following a more ketogenic diet (lo carb) in our home.

I will "third" this comment -- but it's also true that diet can influence susceptibility to, and the course of, infectious diseases.

I can't speak to ketogenic or low-carb diets -- but micronutrient deficiencies (as one example of a dietary influence) may be associated with poorer resistance to some infectious diseases, as well as non-infectious/chronic diseases.

Similarly, we are only beginning to understand the role of gut flora, which can be influenced by diet, in maintaining (or making mischief with?) our immune systems, particularly in the case of gastrointestinal conditions.

That said, while I strongly believe that improved hygiene and reduced stress/adversity/inequality would be beneficial to global health and to people with chronic illnesses, and would prevent some diseases from arising/spreading, I am less sanguine that these conditions alone (with or without a ketogenic diet) could cure all diseases. Diseases like measles are sufficiently contagious that vaccines are pretty much required to keep them in check.

ana futura
09-03-13, 06:52 PM
Why can there not be balance?

While I admittedly despise work of almost any sort, there are a great many people who do not feel that way. There are many people who derive satisfaction from work. The problem is not work, it's balance: people are expected to work 50-60 hour weeks. Health care workers are notoriously overworked. And yet, unemployment is rising...

SB I think you will win more folks to your cause if you try to tone down the black and white thinking a bit. Yes, preventative medicine is awesome, totally necessary to our well being as a society. Yes, people are overworked and need balance.

Instead of demanding a revolution, how about we work with what we have? Like encouraging preventive care and lobbying for a shorter work week?

Dizfriz
09-03-13, 07:20 PM
SB I think you will win more folks to your cause if you try to tone down the black and white thinking a bit. Yes, preventative medicine is awesome, totally necessary to our well being as a society. Yes, people are overworked and need balance.

Instead of demanding a revolution, how about we work with what we have? Like encouraging preventive care and lobbying for a shorter work week?
I can fully agree with both paragraphs. Over the years I have seen many utopias and bright new societies proposed and none of them have come to be in any significant way.

What we do see is people trying, in their own quite way, to change what is there for the better. Darkness>candle.

Where is effort better spent, pushing for the impossible or trying to move society, a step at a time, from what is to perhaps a little closer to what should be?

SB, your choice, your energy, but don't be surprised if by pushing for the impossible, you find yourself in the end right where you started.


He changed the world a little for the better, not a lot but some. Not a bad legacy, I would be satisfied with that.

Dizfriz

Amtram
09-03-13, 07:34 PM
I am all for preventive measures, but we need to be realistic about it. "Disease" is such a broad term that pronouncing that any single thing will prevent all of it is destined to be incorrect. Yes, it's the black-and-white thinking that's the problem.

And in some cases, the healthiest lifestyle in the world won't make a difference. It all depends on what risk factors are involved. If you have no genetic risk factors for disease, then food and exercise won't make you more resistant - but that's not an argument for dismissing them as useful.

If you're exposed to a really nasty disease, you may or may not increase your resistance by being healthy. Necrotizing fasciitis has struck several people who were engaged in regular exercise programs and got hurt while exercising. The polio risk factors included things like pregnancy, having had your tonsils out, and strenuous exercise.

There's simply no such thing as a panacea.

SB_UK
09-04-13, 04:46 AM
There's a Greek oncologist right in front of me.

He very much wants to go to Mount Athos and tells me that 95% of Greeks share the religion which is supported there.

He told me that it's a well known fact that the people on Athos are derived from the entire planet ie are extremely genetically heterogeneous.

I asked him if he knew that there was little or no cancer, Parkinson's disease, Alzheimer's disease, diabetes, obesity, heart disease, stroke etc etc and extremely long lives were lived by the guys there.

He didn't but agreed that their health profile must be environmentally determined.

What could it be that's responsible for their health ?
There's only really lack of psychological stress and a ketogenic lifestyle that characterizes them.

And so that must be it.

It makes thorough sense mechanistically - and in the current issue of Nature it is proven (over 3 articles) that fasting / calorie restriction / natural food consumption leads to reduced systemic inflammation.
More so - that science agrees that systemic inflammation underlies the Western disorders.

The funny thing about the authors on this epidemiological-bent study - is that they're the very same authors who ~20 years ago started the complex disease genetics madness; seems like they've learned the error of their ways and traded 'it's in your genes' for 'it's the way you live your life within context of society'.

So - that's food covered.

And PNAS offered a paper in 2012 (cortisol resistance) which identified how stress screws up the immune system - resulting in inappropriate inflammatory reactions.

-*-

So - we've epidemiological and experimental evidence of the basis to Western disorders.

And we've a solution (a societal structure which doesn't drive psych. stress and a vegan ketogenic diet/lifestyle)

- but ?? still ?? the conversation goes on.

-*-

Realistically - we were never broken.
We simply broke ourselves.
Looked the other ways whilst doing it.
And hoped that somebody'd ride to our rescue with a drug to return us to health.

But it didn't and won't happen.

SB_UK
09-04-13, 04:57 AM
SB having fun is not a necessity. Sometimes getting a feeling of satisfaction and pride with what you do can be a far stronger incentive.


Dizfriz

That's part of my definition of fun.

Not really pride but a personal sense of reward from a moral task of worth, undertaken well.

Pride's a terrible thing.

A personal sense of satisfaction at undertaking a task of social worth - places the satisfaction one feels - as the knowledge of how others will enjoy what you have created.

Pride doesn't ever come into this form of reward.

What is pride ?
Pride invokes feelings of ego - as if you yourself are the 'aim' of completing some task - when a large part of what I'm trying to describe is the shift from primitive (frontal cortex) to social (anterior cingulate cortex) reward systems ... ... which in effect represents elimination of ego.

So - yes to satisfaction and no to pride
- if 'satisfaction' comes from activation of the social reward system.

Reference (from previously)
http://m.today.duke.edu/2012/12/socialprimate (in Nature Neuroscience)

SB_UK
09-04-13, 06:35 AM
Athos

I can't change the record.

The deal with epidemiology is that you're restricted to naturally occurring populations.

If there were (maybe there are?) others - then we'd see the exact same thing in them too.

The important part of Mount Athos is that they are not made to fear access to survival essentials and live a ketogenic lifestyle.

The sun probably has a role to play also - in their healthfulness.

SB_UK
09-04-13, 08:37 AM
http://blog.peterbaksa.com/post/9719815756/tibetan-monks-my-lama-temple-interveiwsThe monks of Tibet are well known for their miracles of youth and long health.

There's another model which can be used - but I don't have any data on these chaps.

With their youthful appearance, pleasant attitude, and longevity, it is was easy to find a monk that looks to be around forty years old or so to actually be in his eighties.

Don't see any reason to believe that he's lying.


But then again - proof 'd be easy to come by if you had the tiniest fraction of money allocated to molecular genetics available to you.

SB_UK
09-04-13, 10:07 AM
Personally though - I like the island nature of Mount Athos - a completely isolated population - which is just as much the ideal in epidemiology as it is in genetics.

'Cept genetics is dead and environment is here to say.

So says Jean Weissenbach ... ... mais oui!Trust a Frenchman to return to food.

http://www.learnforeignlanguageskills.com/user/products/large/Screen%20Shot%202012-11-06%20at%2009.31.42.png

'we are your friends' apart from the potato.

Amtram
09-04-13, 10:21 AM
So why have so many indigenous populations that have lived a completely natural lifestyle suited to the land they occupy been killed off in droves when exposed to pathogens? Why didn't the healthy lifestyle of the Native Americans protect them from smallpox?

SB_UK
09-04-13, 10:56 AM
So why have so many indigenous populations that have lived a completely natural lifestyle suited to the land they occupy been killed off in droves when exposed to pathogens? Why didn't the healthy lifestyle of the Native Americans protect them from smallpox?

In descending order of Westernization, the percent of deaths from cancer were as follows:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_zULJExxrW54/SG7ScP8dCQI/AAAAAAAAAI8/IYWraJDlfJA/s1600/cancer_rates_among_inuit_and_whites_(percent_death s).png

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.co.uk/2008/07/cancer-among-inuit.html

Lunacie
09-04-13, 11:13 AM
I understood Amtram to be asking about contagious diseases. Cancer isn't contagious.

Amtram
09-04-13, 01:28 PM
Unless you're a Tasmanian Devil.

Native Americans died from smallpox well before there was a "Western Lifestyle." They had all natural, fresh food, a physically active lifestyle, lots of time spent outdoors. Many of them had extremely egalitarian, "stress-free" societies, too.

But they died of smallpox, syphilis, and gonorrhea.

The Aztecs and Incas fell to the same diseases even though they existed, too, well before the "Western Lifestyle" existed.

So the question is not how death rates changed after "Western Lifestyle" was introduced, but why peoples who existed before there was such a thing managed to be felled by disease.

If you're purporting that a lifestyle prevents all disease, then compare apples to apples. There are many examples throughout history and all around the world of people who lived what you're promoting as a "disease-free lifestyle," but who had no resistance to diseases when they were introduced into their population. The three I cited are only examples of the largest I can think of.

Every time a "primitive" population was discovered by a "civilized" one, they caught the diseases the "civilized" people brought in. If it's only "Western Lifestyle" that confers susceptibility to disease, then this never would have happened. But it did. Over and over.

SB_UK
09-04-13, 02:06 PM
I understood Amtram to be asking about contagious diseases. Cancer isn't contagious.

Exact same logic.

Westernization -> introduction of social hierarchy -> generation of poverty -> infectious disease (eg see polio comment above) in the poverty-stricken

SB_UK
09-04-13, 02:10 PM
syphilis, and gonorrhea??? Sexually transmitted diseases ??? are eminently preventable by a lifestyle change.

There's certainly no point in looking at infectious disease susceptibility genes - but there are some berks :-) that try.

All that's required is an epidemiologist sleuth to work out how the disease is transmitted and then to bring in blanket preventative schemes.

Game over without anybody other than an epidemiologist.

Perhaps the only missing link was access to people to inform them of the risk - which is what the Internet permits/will permit.

But still - no role for molecular scientists and pharmaceutical scientists.

Simply epidemiology and information science.

SB_UK
09-04-13, 02:27 PM
So - key point I'm making is that the Western disorders can be eradicated.
In a world of equality/vegan eating - there won't be the hygiene issues associated with poverty promoting selection of virulent infectious agents (eg bird flu).
In a connected world - people will all know about and practice preventative barrier measures (be they condoms or mosquito nets), if that's what's required.
In a world of equality - there won't be selection for polluting industries, or for profit-addicted corporations to abuse people by selling to human addictions (eg processed carbs, alcohol and cigarettes).

No need for molecular mechanisms and No need for pharmaceuticals.
Definitely no need for pharmaceuticals - but the molecular mechanisms are fun just to know - if people still (in a fair world) care.

We're really rather complicated from the ground up - it's hard to appreciate the entire human system's operation at the molecular level
- but if people are still propelled to try - the go knock yourself out !

All in all - we have the capacity to pretty much eradicate disease in man up until cause of death at an advanced age ... ... but that future scenario ???might??? require the continued use of vaccines until the small handful of diseases which can be treated this way, have been eradicated/global society has restructured and everything bedded in.

I don't have any definite stance on vaccines - we just need to see whether the need is there after realising a new society.

For the most part though - vaccines are much more in line with prevention than cure - which is the point I'm making.

Amtram
09-04-13, 04:26 PM
Western diseases have existed since before "Western Lifestyle." Cancer has been found in fossil bones. Heart disease was killing people back before anyone knew what a heart did.

You still haven't addressed how lifestyle would prevent contagious diseases that have affected pre-Western civilizations. If it hasn't protected anyone in history so far, what were all of them doing wrong? They weren't living a "Western Lifestyle," but they were still contracting and developing diseases.

And pathogens evolve as their hosts evolve, too, so resistance is even less attributable to lifestyle changes.

qinkin
09-04-13, 09:36 PM
Some of the reasoning in your conclusions that ketogenic state is absolutely superior is lacking in support from basic science of metabolism though. There're are many contradictions. So the claims cannot be justified universally. Are we even talking about ADHD? ADHD is not all important to me, but figured that since it gets repeated constantly here, that it's relevance ought to be questioned.

#refer to video --

Simply epidemiology and information science.


Addressing this in detail seems like a waste of time. I don't think it'll matter what I say. And not sure how the nature article supports your overall prescription that epidemiology needs to replace any of what you said. You also mentioned Inuits again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLrpBLDWyCI


The Aztecs and Incas fell to the same diseases even though they existed, too, well before the "Western Lifestyle" existed.


Yeah, I'm also concerned with what time era are we referring to. "Western Lifestyle" (and diet) of 21st century equates to all past western civilization???? :confused:

Amtram
09-04-13, 10:44 PM
Neanderthals with cancer. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-22780717?print=true)
Homo Kanamensis with cancer. (http://discovermagazine.com/2013/julyaug/16-history-cancer-afflicted-people-since-prehistoric-times-fossils-show#.Uifr9T_YHq8)

Study: CT Scans of Ancient Mummies Show Signs of Heart Disease
Heart disease is often associated with our modern love of bacon cheeseburgers, cigarettes, and sitting through TV marathons. But a study published Sunday in The Lancet (http://download.thelancet.com/flatcontentassets/pdfs/S014067361360598X.pdf) suggests the disease may predate all that by several thousand years. Researchers obtained CT scans of 137 mummies whose geographical regions or populations span more than 4,000 years. These "participants" were from Egypt, Peru, southwest America, and the Aleutian Islands of Alaska. Scientists looked in these mummies for atherosclerosis—the buildup of fatty plaque in arteries and currently the most common cause of heart disease. Their findings? Among all regions, 34 percent of the mummies showed signs of definite or probable atherosclerosis. Study leader and Kansas City, Mo. cardiologist Randall Thompson told BBC News: "The fact that we found similar levels of atherosclerosis in all of the different cultures we studied, all of whom had very different lifestyles and diets, suggests that atherosclerosis may have been far more common in the ancient world than previously thought."


Egyptian mummy with cancer and diabetes. (http://www.livescience.com/19944-egyptian-mummy-rare-disease.html)
Queen Hatshepsut with cancer and diabetes. (http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/tech/science/discoveries/2007-06-27-egypt-queen_N.htm)
Diabetes described over 3000 years ago. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11953758)


Clearly, these are not diseases caused by "Western Lifestyle," nor can they be avoided by diet and exercise.

SB_UK
09-05-13, 05:02 AM
The basic point I'm making isn't just the vegan ketogenic lifestyle (exercise/fasting) but requires the abolition of stress (psychological) but stress (physical) would have applied to many ancient populations mentioned on account - most likely of something along the lines of inappropriate food/shelter provision.

Athos sees people living the vegan ketogenic lifestyle, are without toxic psychological or toxic physical stress.

The key point I'm making is that TOXIC stress has to be eliminated as a precursor to living the ketogenic life-style.

In fact - I find it really hard to live the ketogenic lifestyle under TOXIC stress.

Key point then - we need to consider TOXIC STRESS (PHYSICAL AND PSYCHOLOGICAL) as well as living the ketogenic lifestyle.

The Western lifestyle brings TOXIC psychological stress.
Other ancient communities though would have lived under TOXIC physical stress.

On Athos - both TOXIC psychological and physical stress are eliminated and the ketogenic lifestyle are lived.
Although I know that they have none of the diseases of Western living - they also (I'm 99.99%) sure have none of the diseases of poverty including infectious diseases.

SB_UK
09-05-13, 05:05 AM
So just to make that point again - it might not have been the chronic psychological stress of living in a Western style societally hierarchical (Marxist pyramid) structure
- but it'd have been the chronic physical stress which'd undoubtedly relate to food/shelter provision
- both of which we're at a point in development where technology can make both (for the world's population) - obsolete.

It's really easy to make an insulated house with a solar panel and grow vegetables
- for each together for all.

SB_UK
09-05-13, 05:23 AM
So ... ...

The diseases of Western living aren't simply given rise to because of Western living specifically - they're the combination of stress exposure alongside inappropriate food consumption (vegan ketogenic lifestyle).
Now the diseases of Western living make that form of life a reality for all.

The key point to make though is that the source of TOXIC stress from early populations relative to now - has changed.
It has changed from insufficient/inappropriate food/shelter provision (previously) to the stress of living in a hierarchical society now.

Both TOXIC stresses - which 'break' us.

-*-

Now the world we have currently will shortly permit us to ensure education to all (via the internet), communication between all people (via the internet), the allocation of preventative measures to disease for all (via a small industrial sector) ... ... ensuring food/shelter for all
- permitting education (completion of mind to wisdom) for all
and facilitating pair-bond formation.

And that's the entire story closed.

There will be next to no disease - and even if there were to prove to be disease - by taking all hands away from the 99.99% of diseases which have been eliminated
- imagine how quickly we'd come up with a solution to any diseases which subsequently emerged.

But, I can't see it happening.

All we need is an intelligent global infrastructure (for solar panels, insulated houses, vegetable provision, exercise permissive) ... ... and the rest 'll happen autonomously.

Solar panels can be fully recycled.
We can build houses made from fully recycl-able materials.
Vegetables may be grown organically/sustainably.
It's possible to make environmentally-friendly surfaces which we can exercise on.

Everything's do-able
- all that's holding us up are self-interest groups like the oil industry, car industry, legal industry, political industry, medical industry, pharmaceutical industry that fears 'losing market share'.

All of that is nonsense.

I've provided a complete roadmap to human enlightenment.

Now - it's time for people to just do it.

Final deliverable will be the global internet being offered for free - it's do-able as Amazon kinda' do a slow version of it already.

And this technology 'd be nice (but by no means necessary) also:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/la-to-san-francisco-in-30-minutes-paypal-founder-elon-musk-unveils-800mph-hyperloop-trains-8758316.html

Allowing us to eliminate cars, trains, planes, boats etc etc etc

The guy in charge of it 'll have it sorted soon.

SB_UK
09-05-13, 05:41 AM
Human beings are really thick - we're about 60kg and we use a car that's 20 times our weight to get us around

- that's just plain crazy.

http://www.independent.co.uk/incoming/article8759322.ece/ALTERNATES/w460/hyperloop-2.jpg

Or what about the average level of heat insulation on a home ?

SB_UK
09-05-13, 05:51 AM
Re: Medical/Life Science workers in trouble.

The point being - we don't live in an intelligent infrastructure.

If we shifted to public transport (as above) - we'd get there quicker, consume little energy in the process and have next to no impact on land required for infrastructure required - meaning reduced pollution meaning increased health.

-->- prevention

If we insulated our homes perfectly then hypothermia (a major killer in the UK, and presumably most cold countries) 'd be eliminated.

-->- prevention

Noting that neither of these problems occur on Athos - noting that it's an unfair comparison wrt weather but that this pre-occupation with going anywhere 'out there' should be replaced by the desire to go somewhere 'in here'
- that is - to attain a mind of wisdom.

SB_UK
09-05-13, 06:13 AM
So - and once again to re-iterate - given an absence in TOXIC psychological/physical stress (as seen on Athos) and a vegan ketogenic lifestyle (as seen on Athos) we'd eliminate all human disease.

It's constant, chronic stress exposure which ultimately kills us.

The stresses which I'm describing (which kill us) are not seen on Mount Athos - and so it's easily imaginable that we might construct a global village in its image.

Of course there'd be some differences between the Mount and the Global Village - but it's really not very hard to see what the pre-requisite for acceptance of any novel schemes 'd be.

They'd need to be sustainable, with people on board keeping them in action of their own volition (would need to be happy spending their time keeping any such systems in action)

- because there's no way to pay them in a world without money.

The really important message from Athos though, is that even if nobody wanted to do anything else other than prepare food - then that's precisely the society we could set up globally.

Personally, I can't see a future without an internet -
- and some basic (though fast) way of navigating our way around the world.

But we're pretty much there on both fronts.

The order of the day - I believe - 'd be to knock down the houses we've put up in haste and to put a properly engineered set of zero energy houses made from materials which can be fully recycled.

Recycling (perfect recycle-ability) critically built into any future human endeavour.

SB_UK
09-05-13, 06:16 AM
And instead of people arguing here - it's important to note that there're 10 billion people out there who want their say.
Each one of them will say they want at least as much as the next person (of the material world)
- making a global society in which equality (in terms of material world ownership) by sharing is the only viable possibility.

This is democracy on a global level - the global electorate asked what they want.

And that world - as the famous saying goes 'd be a world of equality, liberty, fraternity
- without chronic toxic physical and psychological stress

and so permissive of us living a life of vegan ketosis where we don't become diseased until point of death.

SB_UK
09-05-13, 06:18 AM
Neanderthals with cancer. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-22780717?print=true)
Homo Kanamensis with cancer. (http://discovermagazine.com/2013/julyaug/16-history-cancer-afflicted-people-since-prehistoric-times-fossils-show#.Uifr9T_YHq8)

Study: CT Scans of Ancient Mummies Show Signs of Heart Disease
Heart disease is often associated with our modern love of bacon cheeseburgers, cigarettes, and sitting through TV marathons. But a study published Sunday in The Lancet (http://download.thelancet.com/flatcontentassets/pdfs/S014067361360598X.pdf) suggests the disease may predate all that by several thousand years. Researchers obtained CT scans of 137 mummies whose geographical regions or populations span more than 4,000 years. These "participants" were from Egypt, Peru, southwest America, and the Aleutian Islands of Alaska. Scientists looked in these mummies for atherosclerosis—the buildup of fatty plaque in arteries and currently the most common cause of heart disease. Their findings? Among all regions, 34 percent of the mummies showed signs of definite or probable atherosclerosis. Study leader and Kansas City, Mo. cardiologist Randall Thompson told BBC News: "The fact that we found similar levels of atherosclerosis in all of the different cultures we studied, all of whom had very different lifestyles and diets, suggests that atherosclerosis may have been far more common in the ancient world than previously thought."


Egyptian mummy with cancer and diabetes. (http://www.livescience.com/19944-egyptian-mummy-rare-disease.html)
Queen Hatshepsut with cancer and diabetes. (http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/tech/science/discoveries/2007-06-27-egypt-queen_N.htm)
Diabetes described over 3000 years ago. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11953758)


Clearly, these are not diseases caused by "Western Lifestyle," nor can they be avoided by diet and exercise.

To repeat - just because the M1 takes you to London, doesn't mean the M11 won't also.

SB_UK
09-05-13, 06:20 AM
~
I can't read your Posts - because they're simply a repetition - that you can't say this, I don't know what you mean by that, that might or might not be true, there's no evidence in that study to suggest etc etc etc

It's hard work - because you don't ever say anything constructive - just destructive
- which means that we're no better off after reading anything you write.

Amtram
09-05-13, 10:03 AM
So. . .there are no current examples of, or even research confirming that this lifestyle will do what you say it will do. Except one, which has multiple shortcomings as an example of the model you've presented.

All historic examples that demonstrate that this kind of lifestyle will not do what you say it will do are flawed because they are not exactly, precisely the lifestyle you advocate in every tiny detail.

All historic examples that demonstrate that illnesses you have described as attributable to "Western Lifestyle" existing prior to the existence of "Western Lifestyle" can be summarily dismissed as non-preventible, because they could be caused by "Western Lifestyle."

All current examples of disease that are, without question, directly caused by exposure to a pathogen, can be prevented by methods that do not involve any known, proven methods, but methods that have been shown ineffective.

Not scientific, from what I can see so far.

addthree
09-05-13, 10:39 AM
Diet does help ward off some diseases. Are you all familiar with Ayurvedic way of living.
It has really helped me. However no diet can word of infectious diseases like small pox or polio. Nothing can prevent colds are flu's but their duration can be shortened with the right diet.
In India people try to treat diseases with food. Both Western and Eastern medicines are useful. And cutting out processed foods leads to healthier living.

SB_UK
09-05-13, 11:15 AM
So. . .there are no current examples of, or even research confirming that this lifestyle will do what you say it will do. Except one, which has multiple shortcomings as an example of the model you've presented.

All historic examples that demonstrate that this kind of lifestyle will not do what you say it will do are flawed because they are not exactly, precisely the lifestyle you advocate in every tiny detail.

All historic examples that demonstrate that illnesses you have described as attributable to "Western Lifestyle" existing prior to the existence of "Western Lifestyle" can be summarily dismissed as non-preventible, because they could be caused by "Western Lifestyle."

All current examples of disease that are, without question, directly caused by exposure to a pathogen, can be prevented by methods that do not involve any known, proven methods, but methods that have been shown ineffective.

Not scientific, from what I can see so far.

One population is all we need.

There aren't any shortcomings in the Mount Athos story - it's a wonderful epidemiological study.

The ancient civilizations mentioned are a million miles from the Athos study - because everything hinges on toxic stress avoidance
- and so unless a population has that characteristic - it's inadmissible.

Not a tiny deviation (in other populations offered as evidence) - but a fundamental difference which prevents data accumulated on any such populations from being used.

Western lifestyle diseases can be caused by a lifestyle which is "in effect" Western lifestyle of inappropriate food intake/physical stress exposure.
Toxic stress is the key - unless it's eliminated - health will not be instated.

Emergence of pathogenic epidemics is driven by and then propagated by poor environmental conditions. Bird flu is a perfect example of poor environmental conditions in which chickens are kept - as a breeding ground for emergence, selection and propagation of pathogens.
The point, then 'd be - that given a 'clean' environment - that the pathogens wouldn't arise. And if they don't arise - then we need not worry about them.

PREVENTION PREVENTION PREVENTION
by
ENVIRONMENTAL INTERVENTIONS
as defined by the
EPIDEMIOLOGICAL APPROACH

Lunacie
09-05-13, 12:54 PM
One population or one study isn't proof of anything. The results must be
replicable. I don't know much about science but I do know that much.

Amtram
09-05-13, 01:52 PM
It's not a good selection at all. It's small, it includes only one gender, has not actually been examined scientifically (since the monks don't allow visitors) and has no control group, and is covering too many variables to produce a supportable result. It's self-reported and/or anecdotal. Then there's the niggling little detail of the fact that they do, indeed, use money (in the form of stipends from the church and earnings from their online store) and have had cases of cancer (the one confirmed cancer claim is that they have lower rates of prostate cancer than the general population, not a complete absence, nor any report of any other causes of death.)

If lack of absolute adherence to the proposed lifestyle is enough to dismiss the evidence provided by non-isolated gender-mixed populations that reproduce, then Mount Athos' divergences from the proposed lifestyle should be equally qualified as making them a poor example.

Were it not unethical, the actual test would be to introduce a pathogen into the population that is spread by human-to-human contact and see if they resisted it. I think I can already predict the outcome.

SB_UK
09-05-13, 02:56 PM
One population or one study isn't proof of anything. The results must be
replicable. I don't know much about science but I do know that much.

The average intelligent person on the street (with no vested interest) wouldn't be at all surprised by the disease profile on Athos.

The thing is - is that the only people who'd be in denial about this particular study are pharmaceutical, complex disease geneticists and 'omicists.

Because they're the flavour of the moment, are making much money - and can see that this study 'd make 'em all look silly.

Human disease is (across the board) environmental in nature.

We're approaching the end of a blip in interest in genetics, pharmacology and 'omics which kicked off in the 80's
- the rise of the super pharmaceutical company, industrial scale lab, industrial scale data crunching facility

As mentioned throughout this thread - the pharmaceutical industry is dying ('patent cliff') and as described in the Nature piece this thread is based on - funding is beginning to dry up for biomedical research.

The crazy orgy of data generation is over.

- and all that's come out from all of that - is a seemingly never ending drivel of numbers which we can't possible store for re-use
- so much data have we now generated; and things 're only set to get much, much worse.

We're about to be inundated by data.

Imagine a terribly organized lab :-) - you can't actually do anything in it - because you can't find anything, can't know what works, not know which bits work with other bits ... ... and that's what's happening in 'omics data.

-*-

It's all absolute nonsense - and you'll find that most honest people in the field 'll agree.

It's just the latest fad - where the much older disciplines (PARTICULARLY EPIDEMIOLOGY) has (and had) the answer to the questions we seek years ago.

Now, if we had to suggest a point to 'omics
- that'd be just to provide proof that we're so complex as to rule out any artificial intervention
- underlining the case for environmental change - because we're not able to alter the human system without being sufficiently sure that we're not introducing some other error into the system.

Amtram
09-05-13, 04:51 PM
What environmental factors caused cancer in Neanderthals and Homo Kamanensis?

ana futura
09-05-13, 05:58 PM
SB, have you thought about joining a monestary yourself? Why not just do it? There are several western Buddhist monestaries that you might find appealing.

You can often visit for a week or so. I frequently think about joining one, or at least visting.

I think a big part of Mt. Athos is the monastic lifestyle itself. Spending all day in a contemplative state is going to reduce stress dramatically.

qinkin
09-05-13, 07:54 PM
I can't read your Posts - because they're simply a repetition - that you can't say this, I don't know what you mean by that, that might or might not be true, there's no evidence in that study to suggest etc etc etc

It's hard work - because you don't ever say anything constructive - just destructive
- which means that we're no better off after reading anything you write.

I didn't buy that for a second. This seems like a baiting tactic to get me to say something that will result in penalties. I think you have been getting extremely way too personal with ALL OF THIS from the beginning. You seem very hateful towards me when you say "we're no better off after reading anything you write".

You haven't shown that being in a state of ketosis is superior from the basic science and then upwards. Yet this remains a major aspect of your argument b/c you depend on a stance of complete conformity with your perception. I've also posted on Inuits with information that you've not taken into consideration. In the Inuit inhabited areas, the overall lifespans were significantly below normal (Canada 20th century) and have been for a long time.

Amtram
09-05-13, 11:32 PM
??? Sexually transmitted diseases ??? are eminently preventable by a lifestyle change..

Just to go back for clarification.

A. you don't know your history, or
B. being raped is "lifestyle choice."

I'd like to see your answer as to which one this is.

SB_UK
09-06-13, 04:40 AM
a state of ketosis is superior from the basic science

I've put so many papers up about this - here're two references which I've used over and over:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23223453 <-benefits of ketone bodies
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histone_deacetylase_inhibitor <- benefits of class within which ketone bodies belong

And another one, which I've referenced previously:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17299079

Note - all three of these references have been used previously.

SB_UK
09-06-13, 04:41 AM
What environmental factors caused cancer in Neanderthals and Homo Kamanensis?
Toxic stress eg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d1/Smilodon_head.jpg/160px-Smilodon_head.jpg
Inadequate food.
Inappropriate hygiene.

The epidemiologist has nailed all of these 'threats' (toxic stressors) and we're able to set up a world in which none of them apply.
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SB_UK
09-06-13, 04:50 AM
SB, have you thought about joining a monestary yourself? Why not just do it? There are several western Buddhist monestaries that you might find appealing.

You can often visit for a week or so. I frequently think about joining one, or at least visting.

I think a big part of Mt. Athos is the monastic lifestyle itself. Spending all day in a contemplative state is going to reduce stress dramatically.

Sounds like the perfect life - though the problem is that at the rate the Western lifestyle is encroaching on the rest of the world (global warming, pollution,overfishing)
- there won't be any places like Mount Athos left soon.

The world 'll just be engulfed in the cancer of materialism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Beach_%28novel%29
The story is set primarily in and around Melbourne, Australia, in 1963. World War III has devastated most of the populated world, polluting the atmosphere with nuclear fallout and killing all human and animal life in the northern hemisphere.

Global air currents are slowly carrying the lethal nuclear fallout across the Intertropical Convergence Zone to the southern hemisphere.

After a brief stop at Pearl Harbor, the remaining submariners return to Australia to live out what little time they have left. Osborne takes his suicide pill while sitting in his beloved racing car.

Point is - that in a fully connected world - with the cancer/nuclear fallout of global economic growth/materialism - that there's no safe monastery to live in, any more.

Nowhere to immerse yourself in a stress-free life.

We're restricted to excising the cancer and setting up a global village
- or nothing.

SB_UK
09-06-13, 05:35 AM
Just to go back for clarification.

A. you don't know your history, or
B. being raped is "lifestyle choice."

I'd like to see your answer as to which one this is.

Clear statement from epidemiological studies like 'why equal societies do better' - is of a clear relationship between crime and inequality.

You could PREVENT crime (all of them) by realising a fair society.

Crime (including the one you mention) is the symptom of a sick society is the symptom of inequality which manifests itself as stress ... ... and then we break.

All crime can be prevented.

SB_UK
09-06-13, 06:50 AM
Summarising
I haven't found a single factor which causes human harm which can't be prevented by first and foremost - an equality infrastructure for society globally being laid down
- and then the application of epidemiologically validated sustainable procedures which keep us out of harm's way.

So - Western disorders would be eliminated, we'd age slower, we'd have zero toxic stress exposure, we'd have no -ISMs, diseases of poverty would be overcome, infectious disease epidemics would not emerge in the first place, crime would be eliminated ... ... and the list goes on ... ...
all using epidemiological evidence supported, as far as possible, by experimental evidence.

And the best the nonsense disease geneticist, 'omicist and pharmaceutical corporation rep can suggest is that you're doomed by your genes at birth, but don't worry we'll be able to change your genes using a drug.

What nonsense!

The path of prevention is the only viable route - and what we've learnt, especially over the last few years from the complex disease geneticisit, 'omicist and pharmacologist
- is that we're far too complicated to make artificial interventions in.

-*-

Toxic stress free life - followed by the vegan ketogenic lifestyle - for optimal health.
The "Athos" model.

SB_UK
09-06-13, 08:11 AM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK154091/
Finally, with respect to the notion that a healthy microbiome is defined by the absence of pathogens, she noted that HMP healthy cohort data showed that the sequences of putative pathogens are in fact present in healthy individuals (Zhou et al., unpublished manuscript).
[1] Immunocompromised individuals (eg under chemotherapy) are increasingly susceptible to infections.
[2] 'Sequences of putative pathogens are in fact present in healthy individuals'
[3] Chronic stress (psych / physical) via cortisol resistance would immunocompromise.

Solution
PREVENTION.

Set up an equal societal structure in which there is no physical stress (food/shelter for all) alongside no psychological stress (an equal societal structure globally)
- and we'll establish cortisol sensitivity, immune system functioning

- and repress emergence of pathogenic microbes.

In this study - stress is associated with catching more colds:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/04/120402162546.htm

SB_UK
09-06-13, 08:13 AM
"The immune system's ability to regulate inflammation predicts who will develop a cold, but more importantly it provides an explanation of how stress can promote disease," Cohen said. "When under stress, cells of the immune system are unable to respond to hormonal control, and consequently, produce levels of inflammation that promote disease. Because inflammation plays a role in many diseases such as cardiovascular, asthma and autoimmune disorders, this model suggests why stress impacts them as well."

When under stress, cells of the immune system are unable to respond to hormonal control, and consequently, produce levels of inflammation that promote disease.

SB_UK
09-06-13, 08:15 AM
When under stress, cells of the immune system are unable to respond to hormonal control, and consequently, produce levels of inflammation that promote disease.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflammation
However, chronic inflammation can also lead to a host of diseases, such as hay fever (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hay_fever), periodontitis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periodontitis), atherosclerosis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atherosclerosis), rheumatoid arthritis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheumatoid_arthritis), and even cancer (e.g., gallbladder carcinoma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallbladder_carcinoma)). It is for that reason that inflammation is normally closely regulated by the body.

Unless you're stressed!

SB_UK
09-06-13, 08:53 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/06/health/gut-bacteria-from-thin-humans-can-slim-mice-down.html?pagewanted=1&ref=general&src=me
Those obstacles led Dr. Gordon and his colleagues to look for those rare sets of twins in which only one twin is fat. That allowed them to cancel out much of the effect of genetics and environment. They gave the twins’ fecal bacteria to mice that were born and reared in a sterile environment and had no bacteria of their own as a result. The mice were genetically identical, so genetic factors played no role in their weights.
Five weeks after they got human gut bacteria, the mice with bacteria from the fat twins had about 15 to 17 percent more body fat than those that had bacteria from thin twins. They also had some of the metabolic changes associated with obesity.




Complex disease genetics, 'omics and pharmaceutical industry in trouble.


We can eradicate all human problems with lifestyle changes.

SB_UK
09-06-13, 10:38 AM
Spending all day in a contemplative state is going to reduce stress dramatically.

That's the state of mind I adore.

Can't stand all of this nonsense confrontational stuff that this site seems to court.

Amtram
09-06-13, 11:04 AM
Toxic stress eg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d1/Smilodon_head.jpg/160px-Smilodon_head.jpg
Inadequate food.
Inappropriate hygiene.

The epidemiologist has nailed all of these 'threats' (toxic stressors) and we're able to set up a world in which none of them apply.
http://www.addforums.com/forums/data:image/jpeg;base64,/9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wCEAAkGBwgHBgkIBwgKCgkLDRYPDQwMDRsUFRAWIB0iIiAdHx 8kKDQsJCYxJx8fLT0tMTU3Ojo6Iys/RD84QzQ5OjcBCgoKDQwNGg8PGjclHyU3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nz c3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3N//AABEIAIUAyAMBIgACEQEDEQH/xAAcAAEAAgMBAQEAAAAAAAAAAAAABQYBBAcDAgj/xAA9EAABAwMCBAMGBAQFBAMAAAABAAIDBAUREiEGEzFBIlFhBz JxgZGhFFKxwSNC0eFiktLw8RVTY7IzNEP/xAAZAQEAAwEBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAgMEAQX/xAAlEQACAgICAQMFAQAAAAAAAAAAAQIRAxIhMUETIjIEQlFhcR T/2gAMAwEAAhEDEQA/AO4oiIAiIgCIiAIiIAiZWMoDKLCygCIsZQGUWMrzdURMOl8sbX eRcAuWgeqL4a8PGWkEeYOV9Z2XQZREQBERAEREAREQBERAERYK Ayi1Ky4U1EBz5Q0n3Wjcn5Kt1/E73scKVvKbjOs7kfsCqcmeGPtk4Y5T6LZJKyMZke1g/wARwo2XiG0ROLZLjTgjyflc1q7tHUSv/EVD/Vz3HZQ81yp4DsQcDAHbCzf7W/jE0r6VfczqFVxzZYfDFNJUOxnETDj6nAUFXe0OYf8A1KRjG/me7Vn5bLndZUSTDZ2Ns7bhacks74h4ne9t5lcebJIksOOP7LdU e0K9h+Y6yLHXHLaP2XrHx9fGBpkrIie4dE3H2Co9HTy1j9tR3x jClaeyDDQWnmjctHQKMsjj5JLGn4Lcz2j3Nvhc2kkIG7hGQP8A 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Dinosaurs and mammals did not walk the earth together.

Amtram
09-06-13, 11:09 AM
You could PREVENT crime (all of them) by realising a fair society.

Crime (including the one you mention) is the symptom of a sick society is the symptom of inequality which manifests itself as stress ... ... and then we break.

All crime can be prevented.

That was the point. There was a fair society, without crime, often with a high degree of equality. That had no impact whatsoever upon susceptibility to disease. A pathogen was introduced to these fair societies from outside, and the population became ill from the pathogen.

You are arguing that a particular lifestyle will absolutely, positively prevent all disease. I am showing you examples of people who illustrated this type of lifestyle in history who got sick anyway.

Pathogens and genes do not discriminate based on sociology.

Oh, and you didn't answer the question. Do you not know that the indigenous peoples contracted sexually-transmitted diseases from rape, or do you consider being raped a "lifestyle choice"? Your characterization of indigenous peoples contracting sexually transmitted diseases from their invaders as being avoidable was extremely offensive, and I would like to see your explanation.

Dizfriz
09-06-13, 11:33 AM
Dinosaurs and mammals did not walk the earth together.
Errrr Amtram, the visual was that of a Smilodon which was a mammal.

Small pedantic point but for clarity's sake.

Dizfriz

ana futura
09-06-13, 11:38 AM
That's the state of mind I adore.

Can't stand all of this nonsense confrontational stuff that this site seems to court.

I'm going to make an observation here, and if i'm overstepping apologies in advance.

You seem like you are caught between two desires. On the one hand you care very much about the larger world, and see a viable solution to all of our suffering. You want to help.

On the other hand, your physical health is suffering greatly because the world that you want to be different is not changing. You recognize the need to care for yourself, but you feel as if you are unable.

While it is true that historic monastic communities like mt. athos are actively being encroached upon, it also true that there is an emergence of new monastic communitites in the west. They are growing, and flourishing.

While your desire for things to be different than they are is quite admirable, you must always care for yourself, or else there will be no you left to desire or enact change.

I worry that the confrontational apsects of this this site that you are pointing out are damaging to you.

I myself can not be here all the time. In fact, I've been intending to ban myself again, as I need to spend more time in a contemplative state as well. And while there are aspects of ADDF that I find very helpful, there are also aspects I find damaging. I know it's time to step back when I start to feel that site is hurting me more thanit is helping me.

qinkin
09-06-13, 04:34 PM
I've put so many papers up about this - here're two references which I've used over and over:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23223453 <-benefits of ketone bodies
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histone_deacetylase_inhibitor <- benefits of class within which ketone bodies belong

And another one, which I've referenced previously:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17299079

Note - all three of these references have been used previously.

___


And the best the nonsense disease geneticist, 'omicist and pharmaceutical corporation rep can suggest is that you're doomed by your genes at birth, but don't worry we'll be able to change your genes using a drug.

What nonsense!

The path of prevention is the only viable route - and what we've learnt, especially over the last few years from the complex disease geneticisit, 'omicist and pharmacologist
- is that we're far too complicated to make artificial interventions in.

-*-

Toxic stress free life - followed by the vegan ketogenic lifestyle - for optimal health.
The "Athos" model.


___

There aren't any shortcomings in the Mount Athos story - it's a wonderful epidemiological study.



Still, I think we need to get to an even more basic level of science dealing with cellular respiration then go upwards. Actually what I'm seeing with this ketogenic stuff about diet, is that it hasn't really anything to do with "environment" either. I mean logically speaking, it's like the same general behavior. To be opportunistically anecdotal because addthree mentioned the subject, even Ayurveda recognizes the "drug" aspect of food and vice versa-- "food is medicine and medicine is food".

I meant to mention this earlier, but perhaps you could post the link to the Athos epidemiology study so we can reevaluate it. Dunno if we'll all come to the same conclusions. I can't find it on the net for some reason. Also the China Study was a far larger epidemiology study than athos, which doesn't support vegan ketosis, caloric restriction, or low carbohyrdate diets in general.

It seems they support a more plant based to vegan diet. They both support less consumption of animal products. Athos supports less animal products consumption as well from what I've heard. The caloric restriction/fasting stuff seems a bit extraneous.

The authors conclude that people who eat a plant-based/vegan diet—avoiding animal products such as beef, pork, poultry, fish, eggs, cheese, and milk, and reducing their intake of processed foods and refined carbohydrates—will escape, reduce or reverse the development of numerous diseases. They also recommend adequate amounts of sunshine to maintain sufficient levels of vitamin D, and supplements of vitamin B12 in case of complete avoidance of animal products. They criticize low-carb diets, such as the Atkins diet, which include restrictions on the percentage of calories derived from complex carbohydrates.[8]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_China_Study_(book)


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++


A study you posted: "A high-fat, ketogenic diet induces a unique metabolic state in mice"
http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/292/6/E1724


First of all the various diets including the controls were performed on obese mice, so the results may not be the same in subjects that did not start out obese. That may be a limitation as to what can be said of the results applied universally but not sure either way. Most obvious limitation was that the study was performed on mice, not people. It's been at least 6 years since publication, so it is a shame if they never went further.

Ketogenic diet is shown to be more effective in certain ways compared to control chow fed and also calorie restricted diet. Diet being the only factor is a limitation but is not necessarily detrimental. I think some of what you say about genetics is just angry ideological stuff, because even this study was evaluating what the genes were doing as well. It also wasn't epidemiological lol.

SB_UK
09-07-13, 03:19 AM
___




___




Still, I think we need to get to an even more basic level of science dealing with cellular respiration then go upwards. Actually what I'm seeing with this ketogenic stuff about diet, is that it hasn't really anything to do with "environment" either. I mean logically speaking, it's like the same general behavior. To be opportunistically anecdotal because addthree mentioned the subject, even Ayurveda recognizes the "drug" aspect of food and vice versa-- "food is medicine and medicine is food".

I meant to mention this earlier, but perhaps you could post the link to the Athos epidemiology study so we can reevaluate it. Dunno if we'll all come to the same conclusions. I can't find it on the net for some reason. Also the China Study was a far larger epidemiology study than athos, which doesn't support vegan ketosis, caloric restriction, or low carbohyrdate diets in general.

It seems they support a more plant based to vegan diet. They both support less consumption of animal products. Athos supports less animal products consumption as well from what I've heard. The caloric restriction/fasting stuff seems a bit extraneous.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_China_Study_(book)


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++


A study you posted: "A high-fat, ketogenic diet induces a unique metabolic state in mice"
http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/292/6/E1724


First of all the various diets including the controls were performed on obese mice, so the results may not be the same in subjects that did not start out obese. That may be a limitation as to what can be said of the results applied universally but not sure either way. Most obvious limitation was that the study was performed on mice, not people. It's been at least 6 years since publication, so it is a shame if they never went further.

Ketogenic diet is shown to be more effective in certain ways compared to control chow fed and also calorie restricted diet. Diet being the only factor is a limitation but is not necessarily detrimental. I think some of what you say about genetics is just angry ideological stuff, because even this study was evaluating what the genes were doing as well. It also wasn't epidemiological lol.

OK - good post.
I'll work through all of those points in a bit.
But, to be honest - I've covered them all before on site (though who knows where ?).

SB_UK
09-07-13, 05:57 AM
Haven't got the time to find all of the links from previously - so here's the basic summary in a few lines.

There's a publication that I've seen (either newspaper featuring University academic interview or actual publication on pubmed) which suggests that monks on Athos eating a predominantly vegan diet [newspaper article featuring interview with University academic from the University Thessaloniki] have next to no diseases of Western living. There's another publication [pubmed] which shows that monks on Athos are in a state of ketosis (from analysing respiratory gases for eg acetone levels).

So - in one line - the Athos study is completely in line with the 'China study' in that a vegan diet (which appears to lead to a state of ketosis on Athos) results in a phenomenally healthy state.

The key point to make is that there appears to be this idea that I'm suggesting Atkins - which I absolutely am not. I'm suggesting a vegan ketogenic state which is achieved through consumption (it appears on Athos) of a predominantly natural complex carb based diet.

I believe the key point is - not much of a predominantly vegan diet (which requires an absence of stress - because of the effect of stress on elevating food intake eg comfort food etc).

Where - energy (if obtaining enough energy on this diet worries people), I believe (based on previously referenced (here) publication in PLOS one) is being [additionally] obtained by gut microbiome degradation of complex carbs (fibre) generating small chain fatty acids.

But you don't need to worry about the precise mechanism by which energy intake is maintained - because we've all the evidence we need - from the observation that these monks follow a predominantly vegan diet and survive (well!) - that energetic considerations need not be held.
They'd be dead if a predominantly vegan diet wasn't sufficient.

-*-

So in one line - the exact same conclusions arising from the China Study are correct.

I'm simply connecting a low [**1] natural vegan intake [**2] (requiring absence of TOXIC stress) [**3] to the state of ketosis [**4] as being the basis of optimal health [**5]

**1 - well documented [no need for scientific publication] 1 in 2 days fasting applied on Athos.
**2 - well documented [no need for scientific publication] food intake profiles on Athos.
**3 - well documented [no need for scientific publication] low psych stress levels (no monk worries about food/shelter provision)
**4 - publication on pubmed
**5 - newspaper publication featuring interview with academic from the University of Thessaloniki.

-*-

To be fair - actual publications could be generated on all of the above in just a couple of days, costing next to no money - if anybody with the means 'd care to.

SB_UK
09-07-13, 06:21 AM
Nice and simply.

[1] You don't need to eat any animal products to be in a state of ketosis.
[2] You can eat a vegan complex carb based diet to be in a state of ketosis.
[3] The specifics of the diet can be obtained by a simple analysis of the Athos diet (I don't have access to this information) - but it's obviously (because they have to make it themselves and have no animals on-site) going to be something like a low amount of only natural, fresh predominantly vegetables.
[4] This is a natural profile of eating in the absence of chronic stress exposure - none of the monks are wandering around in a state of overt hunger (see '60 minutes' video on Mount Athos).

-*-

So - once again - the point I'm making is that:
The vegan ketogenic state in the absence of chronic stressors (psych or physical) is required for maintenace of a healthy state.

-*-

Now - that's kinda' common sense ?
So - what's the problem ?

The problem is that people in the West are, unbeknownst to them, under constant chronic stress - requiring stress relief (food) - which favours processed carb / animal product particularly meats - as hyperglycaemic (stimulant!) foods.
And so the common sense approach to eating cannot be followed when under stress.

Which is why the fundamental intervention which we're requried to make to re-introduce health to the people of the world - is realization of a world without chronic stressor.

No chronic physical stressor = Appropriate food and shelter to all.
No chronic psychological stressor = Equality to all people on a global level by shared ownership of the material world.

As simple as that !

I don't really like the idea - but it seems right - can't find any holes in it.

SB_UK
09-07-13, 06:34 AM
Can't find the PLOS one paper -

- here's a better source (referenced) which shows how a fibre enriched vegan diet is compatible with the ketogenic state, through gut biomic SCFA production - and is capable of supplying us with sufficient energy for life.

"Although we have not measured the total capacity of the large bowel to absorb short chain fatty acids, this may be deduced by other means. On a typical daily intake of 20 g of fibre in Britain, 10-15 g are broken down (Southgate and Durnin, 1970). This would result in the production of at least 100 mmol of short chain fatty acids. No figures are available for the production of short chain fatty acids from other dietarysources but a total of 5-20 mmol of short chain fatty acids are known to be excreted daily in the faeces (Cummings et al., 1976). Thus at least 80 mmol are unaccounted for which could be further metabolised by bacteria or absorbed and would then yield 100 kJ. In parts of the world where fibre intakes are much higher, in the range 60-175 g daily, equivalent processes could yield appreciable quantities of metabolisable energy."
http://paleohacks.com/questions/100590/how-much-fiber-can-we-ferment-to-short-chain-fatty.html;jsessionid=D9CA3A4B0B82D1E4B8C736D4E9B2 9CC9

SB_UK
09-07-13, 06:37 AM
But ultimately - the whole idea is summarised by living the vegan ketogenic lifestyle** as the route to a healthy life.

** Absence of chronic (toxic) stress + diversity of vegetable (diversity of fibre) rich - to encourage a maximally diverse gut biomic community.

SB_UK
09-07-13, 02:20 PM
PREVENTION

referenced

http://nutritionfacts.org/video/more-than-an-apple-a-day-preventing-our-most-common-diseases/

SB_UK
09-07-13, 03:38 PM
58 mins 50 seconds

lifestyle

fingers -> cigarettes (stress) <- stress avoidance
feet -> lack of exercise <- sufficient
forks -> inappropriate food <- vegan [ketogenic]

And that's all there is to it.

Michael Gregor covers each and every disease.

SB_UK
09-07-13, 03:40 PM
There's simply a tiny amount of debate to be had on whether natural vegan versus natural vegan ketogenic.

Ketogenic has more scientific support
- a direct contrast would, though, be interesting.

Non-ketogenic natural vegan is a stroll in the park relative to ketogenic natural vegan ?
Non ketogenic low glycaemic index (<20) relative to ketogenic natural vegan ?
Non ketogenic high fibre low glycaemic index relative to ketogenic natural vegan ?

Non ketogenic high fibre low glycaemic index sorta' merges with ketogenic natural vegan.

Fasting and exercise daily, regularly 'd push non ketogenic high fibre low glycaemic index (<20) into permanent ketosis.

SCFAs from fibre 'd negate the need for even CP vegetable oils.

On Athos - the monks are in permanent ketosis.
They couldn't just hit the state on fasting days.

The monks eat bread,rice.

-*-

A low chronic toxic stress, high exercising, occasional fasting, low calorie (no processed calorie dense foods) wholefood natural, organic diverse vegan diet which is compatible with permanent ketosis as the pro-mitochondrial state.

Exercise depletes glycogen quickly (potentially just a couple of hours).

Amtram
09-07-13, 03:48 PM
I sincerely doubt it. Tay-Sachs? Sickle Cell Anemia? Trisomy? Cerebellar Hypoplasia? Cystic Fibrosis? Neurofibromatosis? Any of the other hundreds of known genetic disorders that are present at birth?

There is absolutely no mechanism in these in which lifestyle changes could act as a preventive or a cure.

ana futura
09-07-13, 03:49 PM
There's simply a tiny amount of debate to be had on whether natural vegan versus natural vegan ketogenic.

Ketogenic has more scientific support
- a direct contrast would, though, be interesting.

Non-ketogenic natural vegan is a stroll in the park relative to ketogenic natural vegan.

I think ketogenic is trendy right now, but I don't think it's necessary. Grains are so demonized, but I think the real problem is gluten, and especially modern wheat.

I know for myself that wheat causes me lots of problems, but I still crave it. Rather than put the emphasis on keto, I'd be interested in looking at no or low gluten whole grains like brown rice, spelt, oats, kamut, etc. No grain is simply too difficult for most people to stick with.

And as far as dairy, I think the problem is really cow's milk, it's so poorly digested. Goat and Sheep's milk (and especially yogurts) seem to be fine.

I'm right there with you on refined sugars and high gi foods. The idea that people crave meat to cope with stress is interesting. I don't eat meat and I haven't in a very long time, but I definitely do crave simple carbs when I am stressed, which I know is the last thing I need.

My brain practically begs me for candy when I am trying to right a paper.

Amtram
09-07-13, 03:55 PM
There's a publication that I've seen (either newspaper featuring University academic interview or actual publication on pubmed) which suggests that monks on Athos eating a predominantly vegan diet [newspaper article featuring interview with University academic from the University Thessaloniki] have next to no diseases of Western living. There's another publication [pubmed] which shows that monks on Athos are in a state of ketosis (from analysing respiratory gases for eg acetone levels).


You've cited them before, and they haven't changed. They don't say those things. The article is self-reported by a representative of the monastery, and he says they don't get sick. The only actual statistics say they have a lower rate of prostate cancer than the rest of the population without actually specifying whether that is national or worldwide or whatever.

The pubmed report examined the breath of seven monks who had been fasting for five days to test the efficacy of a meter that measures ketones in the breath to search under rubble for people who might have been trapped. This says nothing about diet whatsoever.

SB_UK
09-07-13, 04:00 PM
I sincerely doubt it. Tay-Sachs? Sickle Cell Anemia? Trisomy? Cerebellar Hypoplasia? Cystic Fibrosis? Neurofibromatosis? Any of the other hundreds of known genetic disorders that are present at birth?

There is absolutely no mechanism in these in which lifestyle changes could act as a preventive or a cure.


Stress based transposon/retrotransposon/endogenous retroviral translocations.

First one that springs to mind.

These endogenous retroviruses (ERVs), contrasted with exogenous ones, now make up 5-8% of the human genome.

SB_UK
09-07-13, 04:04 PM
More information here:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/01/130122162331.htm

Previously we've covered this idea on HPV also.

Lunacie
09-07-13, 04:13 PM
I think ketogenic is trendy right now, but I don't think it's necessary. Grains are so demonized, but I think the real problem is gluten, and especially modern wheat.

I know for myself that wheat causes me lots of problems, but I still crave it. Rather than put the emphasis on keto, I'd be interested in looking at no or low gluten whole grains like brown rice, spelt, oats, kamut, etc. No grain is simply too difficult for most people to stick with.

And as far as dairy, I think the problem is really cow's milk, it's so poorly digested. Goat and Sheep's milk (and especially yogurts) seem to be fine.

I'm right there with you on refined sugars and high gi foods. The idea that people crave meat to cope with stress is interesting. I don't eat meat and I haven't in a very long time, but I definitely do crave simple carbs when I am stressed, which I know is the last thing I need.

My brain practically begs me for candy when I am trying to right a paper.

I guess I was behind the times, because I was shocked to learn not too
long ago that wheat has been hybridized to produce a shorter stalk and a
fuller head. That change could cause changes in the people eating the
wheat.

What I did know: Meat has been treated with hormones, thereby increasing
the artificial hormones that humans consume.

Metal cans have been treated with plastic to prevent rusting, and more
food than ever is being packaged and cooked in plastic, with mostly
unknown long term effects.

Fruits and veggies are sprayed with insecticides that are *supposed* to be
safe for human consumption, but there is growing concern over that safety.

Stress is different now, life is faster paced, yet we've increased our life
span and that's mostly through diet changes. How can all this be good for
us and bad for us at the same time? It's complicated, but it seems to be
true.


Oh, and stress makes me crave simple carbs as well.

Amtram
09-07-13, 06:52 PM
Stress based transposon/retrotransposon/endogenous retroviral translocations.

First one that springs to mind.

That's one potential correlation to one specific outcome from one particular virus, which is not an ERV. You're extrapolating broad potential from very narrowly specialized findings.

Nor does this answer the question about how lifestyle changes would prevent genetic disorders.

Nor does it provide information about how diet would prevent "all disease."

This kind of thinking is what makes people get seriously, even fatally ill, because they self-treat with unproven methods as opposed to seeking professional opinions and science-based treatments.

SB_UK
09-08-13, 02:36 AM
Oh, and stress makes me crave simple carbs as well.

I think all of us.

SB_UK
09-08-13, 02:59 AM
I'm right there with you on refined sugars and high gi foods. The idea that people crave meat to cope with stress is interesting. I don't eat meat and I haven't in a very long time, but I definitely do crave simple carbs when I am stressed, which I know is the last thing I need.

My brain practically begs me for candy when I am trying to right a paper.

Meat and carbs provide a blood glucose / glutamate hit ie sweet and umami which activate the reward system, ie provide stress relief.

But the major part of the argument I'm using is that in the absence of stress (chronic) - there'd be no need for stress relief.

This idea was the basis behind the Rat Park series of expts (see thread by Peripheral or wikipedia).

So ... ... extrapolating beyond simple carbs and meat - there's of course alcohol which is well known to be enticing because of its perceived (not actual) stress relieving properties, and then there's cigarettes (PLEASE WATCH THE 1 HOUR MICHAEL GREGOR VIDEO - IT'S FANTASTIC)

- which are enticing because of their perceived stress relieving (though not actually) properties.

-*-

Exactly as Michael Gregor states - all of disease (that we're suffering from) comes down to the three 'f' 's
- however food and foot can be considered secondary to fingers (which is a pointer to stress relief).

Why ?

Because under stress (yes! writing papers is dull dull dull) - we automatically shift our eating (towards bad foods) and lifestyle (towards not exercising) habits.

-*-

Now - as Namazu explains - it's not really going to be useful to ban all of the addictive things which kill us - because there'll always be something
- kids 'll switch from pastry to cigarettes to alsochol to glue to krokodil ... ... and krokodil's made from such average household items that banning isn't going to be possible.

Our only hope is to eliminate the stress people 're under.

And that can be realised by making food/shelter available to all people as a birthright through payment by personal effort - exactly like on Athos
- and that's about it ... ... ...

-*-

Now vegan low GI versus vegan zero GI (ie including the range of effectively zero GI veggies).

Ideally I want to sugges that we perform a cyclical vegan ketogenic which involves complex carb re-feeds and then burning off the carbs through exercise and shifting into ketogenic state.
However - the argument against this is that there's something called keto-adaptation which takes a month.

So ... ... the Internet seems to suggest that 1 day of losing the ketogenic state through > 20-50g non-zero GI carbs - although it can be re-established in a few minutes (2 hours hardish cycling) - won't become full on keto-adaptation for a month or so.

Pretty sure that shifting brain fuels is a major cause of our brain fog (thread started on science forum about that issue) - ie internally shifting metabolic pathways within the neurone from carb to ketone usage.

Have to admit - really love the ketogenic state - everything I've read about it; but it's not compatible with fluctuating blood glucose levels from being in a constant state of stress - through cortisol production - blood glucose mobilization - reactive hypoglycaemia - poweerful desire for carbs (simple carbs)

-> powerful desire for simple carbs -> see Ana Futura and Lunacie comments above.

-*-

Now ... ... the finding (See above) that the gut microbiome (and I'm positive that this is something to do with bifidobacteria and Lactobacillus) are capable of generating SCFAs from fibre
- is extremely strong evidence that we can power off ketones through a predominantly FIBRE based diet.

Which is remarkable - since I'm sure that we've been told for the longest time that fibre has zero nutritional value -
looks like diversity in vegetables (diversity in fibre) might generate diversity in gut microbiome - which results in diversity in essential factors for survival ie vitamins ... ...

95% of the body's serotonin is produced by the gut microbiome - and current research is pointing to
gut biome : gut : brain axis as being important in both neurological and psychiatric well-being.

-*-

Everything makes sense - I think ... ... with the sad (for the average person) but thoroughly excellent conclusion (from the perspective of evolution - because it's a really elegant mechanism)

- being that we're designed to power off fibre, vegetables - predominantly
-- retaining (permanently) the ketogenic state

though where this is absolutely impossible unless we generate a world without chronic stress because of activation of the ancient appetite control mechanism which has us reaching for simple carbs/starch when we're stressedd, and our blood glucoses come down offa' their 'stressed' high.

SB_UK
09-08-13, 03:06 AM
What'd be nice if we could simply show that people who're keto-adapted, keto-adapt quicker afte carb re-feed ?

There's this strong feeling that we're designed to (because of the seasons) up carb intake for a few months in the year (harvest) - and for the rest of the time exist within the ketogenic state (burnign off fat).

This is an attractive model - and is in line with eg hibernation.

Of course - human beings have been able to throw off our pattern of development by in effect accessing hi carb/protein food year round.

But how should we best retuen to a pattern of feeding which we're most suited to ?

I'd really like the solution to be something like - eliminate chronic stress and eat natural, organic food
- and we'll automatically shift into a pattern of healthy eating.

In the short term - it'd be cool to follow the Athos monks for a week or two and to analyse respiratory gases to see if they're in a permanent state of ketosis
- alongside a food diary / record of exercise undertaken.

If they're not in the state permanently and are shifting in and out - then we'll be OK to do the same.

-*-

Noting that all of the experiments which I've suggested are trivial, would cost next to nothing and could be wrapped up from start to finish in 1 week.

SB_UK
09-08-13, 03:24 AM
Genetic diseases.

Why are leptin mutations (drive to eat excessively) found within areas of poverty ?

There's a logic there.

We're at the point where it's possible to eliminate stress - eliminate the selection pressure for genomic rearrangement, sequence populations at risk of monogenic disorders for pennies (possible though not necessary) and offer the public health message of out-breeding.
A genetic counsellor with history should be able to take the place of actual sequence ... ... however - we've all of these zillions of sequencing machines around - it'd be a shame not to keep at least one :-) in action.

<- Three lines of attack which'd work together to prevent genetic diseases.

Furthermore - without money - there'd be no corporations financially incentivized to pour toxins (mutagens) into the environment - providing a 4th level (environmental) protecting the species against genetic diseases. And then there's of course - the stress-relieving addictions (cigarettes) which induce mutations - which'd be overcome by a world without stress ... ... and corporations ... ... since nobody'd want or be able to buy, even cigarettes
- once again see 'rat park' experiment.

-*-

Finally - and this just seems obvious.

The process of evolution by genomic rearrangement to complexity - I believe is driven by stress invoking rearrangement ie that the mechanism by which nucleotides evolved - I could easily see - was driven by intenal genomic transposable elements seeking to maximize fitness in times of stress - by rearrangement.

Survival of the fittest - via speciation events - has to be driven by an active process of genomic re-sculpting.
Stress 'd seem like the obvious selection pressure for speciation events.

The point being - that the association between stress and MONOGENIC genetic diseases (ie genomic rearrangements which confer problems)
- shouldn't be considered an extrapolation of evidence of re-activation of the occasional virus under times of stress

- but underneath the entire paradigm of evolution from first life up to man
- it is (I think) THE mechanism which is at play.

-*-

However -- the mechanism (stress based genomic translocations/speciation) grinds to a halt with the emergence of mind.

Upon emergence of mind - we transcend the genomic level and shift onto the memomic level.

There's nothing we can physically manipulate on the genome, just as chemists don't concern themselves with subatomic particles - but with the physico-chemical properties of elements.

What's the medical researcher's equivalent of chemistry to physics (genome) ?

That's simple - philosophy[psychology]/sociology[epidemiology].

The generation of a fair global society, built upon a series of logical procedures which'll rationally generate a world which is the best for the entire human species (and actually all species because of the nature of exosystem).

How'd we do this ?
By generating a world in which all people have access to survival essentials through contributing personal effort
- pure equality.

No social hierarchy.

Shortly after - this global village would dispense with money, legal system for volitional work and no underlying motivation to crime, no contracts of ownership
- we'd be able to get the vast majority of people out of pointless jobs

- and have them doing what they like - which'll undoubtedly be some aspect of completely environmental technological infrastructure to allow communication of art.

A superfast global wireless internet connection upon which people play.

-*-

But won't people get bored ?
No - because with completion of mind (internet based education which permits a personal enquiry into the nature of morality) and pair-bonding
- there's nothing that the individual desires.

There is no boredom at state of enlightenment.

-*-

So - you've answered all questions other than permanent ketosis ?

I'm still attracted to ketosis by diversity in fibre containing real, vegan foods.
Sorry chaps - can't accept any non-zero GI carb.

Not going to be able to topple ketone bodies - they're just too pro-mitochondrial.

So - it's going to be hard ... ... well, I don't think so in a fair global societal infrastructure
- but the thing is, is that we don't get to choose what we eat.

We can't simply eat grass, rabbir droppings and banana peels
- we have to eat what we have to eat.

And I think it's gonna' work our to diversity of fibre-containing veggies consistent with permanent ketosis.

SB_UK
09-08-13, 03:38 AM
Is that what I want ?
No - I love lentils and rice ... ... both of which're off.

But ... everything from the alkalizing state of veggies, the low GI of veggies, the fibre array, the pro-gut biome, pro-mitochondrial, EASE of growth, ease of storage (frozen/dried), natural nature

- everything appeals about this argument from a strictly rational perspective.

We know that carbs are not required for human beings to live - they're a non-essential food group - and are, I think - a stage we're passing through
- with carbs representing the ancient energy source
- and human beings stepping off the genomic evolution paradigm.

-*-

Just to re-iterate though - it's starch and simple sugars (carbs) I'm pointing to and not fibre (carbs).

SB_UK
09-08-13, 04:13 AM
What's the ideal type of exercise which we should attempt ?
See Michael Gregor's video for an epidemiological study which defines optimal exercise.

What's the ideal type of society to exist in ?
See eg Marmot's/Wilkinson's epidemiological studies describing the health-promoting nature of equality.

What's the ideal type of diet to eat ?
See a cross between an epidemiological study of Mount Athos and the studies referenced by Michael Gregor.

-*-

The really irritating part of the advice above - is that that's a really simple society to set up.

Our only problem are the wallies with lots of money, power, fame, titles etc who want to be 'special' and for whom money and law keep them in better style than all-comers.

There's the true problem underlying society.

Egotistical heads of state, psychopathic CEOs, criminally insane lawyers, vain pop singers, self-adoring professional sportsmen etc etc who don't want a fair society because life's so much better for them in the violently unequal society we have currently.

SB_UK
09-08-13, 04:17 AM
To be fair there're probably a couple in Medical/Life Science who want to do the right thing.

But as Michael Gregor explains - the best that medicine/life science appears to do is to mop the floor instead of switching off the tap filling an over-flowing sink

- and worse still (and exactly as described by Michael Gregor)
- through mopping the floor and developing better ways to mop the floor - the flow rate from the tap can accelerate - and nobody'll be any the wiser until the individual is drowned (quite possibly the medical/life science worker) on the floor with a mop in one hand and potentially good intentions in the other.

Stress related sickness in medicine is well established (see OP) and I'm willing to bet that it's a in life science research also
- as the pressure to 'publish or perish' worsens under conditions of reduced money availability.

SB_UK
09-08-13, 04:32 AM
Medical/Life Science workers in trouble because medicine/life science is unable to stem the tide of stress-related disorders

- societal change to a global village where survival essentials are availed to all people would though

- at a cost

- there'd be no need for "Medical/Life Science workers" any more - and they'd be free to :-) exercise,fast with their dogs in the sun.

That world's within reach.

SB_UK
09-08-13, 04:49 AM
Cure for T1D with diet !!!

Wasn't expecting that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=JtvFpF-3B5Q
3:05 - 3.25

SB_UK
09-08-13, 05:38 AM
raw vegan fibre rich zero GI ketogenic versus vegan fibre rich zero GI ketogenic ?

Suddenly vegan fibre rich zero GI ketogenic becomes a stroll in the park.

Raw whenever possible ?

qinkin
09-08-13, 05:41 PM
Haven't got the time to find all of the links from previously - so here's the basic summary in a few lines.

There's a publication that I've seen (either newspaper featuring University academic interview or actual publication on pubmed) which suggests that monks on Athos eating a predominantly vegan diet [newspaper article featuring interview with University academic from the University Thessaloniki] have next to no diseases of Western living. There's another publication [pubmed] which shows that monks on Athos are in a state of ketosis (from analysing respiratory gases for eg acetone levels).

So - in one line - the Athos study is completely in line with the 'China study' in that a vegan diet (which appears to lead to a state of ketosis on Athos) results in a phenomenally healthy state.

The key point to make is that there appears to be this idea that I'm suggesting Atkins - which I absolutely am not. I'm suggesting a vegan ketogenic state which is achieved through consumption (it appears on Athos) of a predominantly natural complex carb based diet.

I believe the key point is - not much of a predominantly vegan diet (which requires an absence of stress - because of the effect of stress on elevating food intake eg comfort food etc).

Where - energy (if obtaining enough energy on this diet worries people), I believe (based on previously referenced (here) publication in PLOS one) is being [additionally] obtained by gut microbiome degradation of complex carbs (fibre) generating small chain fatty acids.

But you don't need to worry about the precise mechanism by which energy intake is maintained - because we've all the evidence we need - from the observation that these monks follow a predominantly vegan diet and survive (well!) - that energetic considerations need not be held.
They'd be dead if a predominantly vegan diet wasn't sufficient.

-*-

So in one line - the exact same conclusions arising from the China Study are correct.

I'm simply connecting a low [**1] natural vegan intake [**2] (requiring absence of TOXIC stress) [**3] to the state of ketosis [**4] as being the basis of optimal health [**5]

**1 - well documented [no need for scientific publication] 1 in 2 days fasting applied on Athos.
**2 - well documented [no need for scientific publication] food intake profiles on Athos.
**3 - well documented [no need for scientific publication] low psych stress levels (no monk worries about food/shelter provision)
**4 - publication on pubmed
**5 - newspaper publication featuring interview with academic from the University of Thessaloniki.

-*-

To be fair - actual publications could be generated on all of the above in just a couple of days, costing next to no money - if anybody with the means 'd care to.


Well the china study was not aligned with the ketosis narrative of athos monks other than a leaning towards less meat=less of certain diseases. From the science based articles I'm reading about low carbohydrate diets, and athos is not even an afterthought. The athos information isn't the most convincing. The athos people aren't really aware of what they are doing, and what they are doing is not some mystery to current scientific understanding. There aren't any diseases? Well what is meant by that exactly if that is even a valid statement? All of what they are doing doesn't exactly seem required, is what I'm also suggesting. Some of it seems very faith based, and does not really represent their firm grasp or understanding of nature.

Actually Atkins is very much what you are suggesting. Your suggestion is just the vegan version. There are definitely mentions of ketosis even in Atkins. In fact, is fundamental. And actually, from the information I've been looking at, nobody else even mentions fasting. Calorie restriction is somewhat something I don't understand. Calorie restriction compared to what?

Atkins diet
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atkins_diet)

Low carbohydrate diet
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-carbohydrate_diet)

Medical research related to low carbohydrate diets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_research_related_to_low-carbohydrate_diets)


____




The Atkins diet involves limited consumption of carbohydrates to switch the body's metabolism from metabolizing glucose as energy over to converting stored body fat to energy. This process, called ketosis, begins when insulin levels are low; in normal humans, insulin is lowest when blood glucose levels are low (mostly before eating). Reduced insulin levels induces lipolysis which consumes fat to produce ketone bodies. On the other hand, caloric carbohydrates (for example, glucose or starch, the latter made of chains of glucose) affect the body by increasing blood sugar after consumption (in the treatment of diabetes, blood sugar levels are used [1]) Fiber, because of its low digestibility, provides little or no food energy and does not significantly affect glucose and insulin levels.

In his early books such as Dr Atkins' New Diet Revolution, Atkins made the controversial argument that the low-carbohydrate diet produces a metabolic advantage because "burning fat takes more calories so you expend more calories".[2] He cited one study where he estimated this advantage to be 950 calories (4.0 MJ) per day. A review study published in Lancet[3] concluded that there was no such metabolic advantage and dieters were simply eating fewer calories because of boredom. Professor Astrup stated, "The monotony and simplicity of the diet could inhibit appetite and food intake".



===

A study of more than 100,000 people over more than 20 years within the Nurses' Health Study observationally concluded that a low-carbohydrate diet high in vegetables, with a large proportion of proteins and oils coming from plant sources, decreases mortality with a hazard ratio of 0.8.[95] In contrast, a low-carbohydrate diet with largely animal sources of protein and fat increases mortality, with a hazard ratio of 1.1.[95] This study, however, has been met with criticism, due to the unreliability of the self-administered food frequency questionnaire, as compared to food journaling,[96] as well as classifying "low-carbohydrate" diets based on comparisons to the group as a whole (decile method) rather than surveying dieters following established low-carb dietary guidelines like the Atkins or Paleo diet.[97]


=====

American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 2006

Johnston et al., 2006[50] completed a study of 20 subjects over a 6-week period comparing ketogenic low-carbohydrate diets (i.e. very low carbohydrate) and non-ketogenic low-carbohydrate diets (i.e. moderate carbohydrate). The authors of the paper concluded the following.
KLC and NLC diets were equally effective in reducing body weight and insulin resistance, but the KLC diet was associated with several adverse metabolic and emotional effects. The use of ketogenic diets for weight loss is not warranted.

This study suggests that ketosis has no real benefit and is potentially harmful in a diet regimen.

====


Journal of Internal Medicine, 2007

Long-term study with participants of 42 237 women titled "Low carbohydrate–high protein diet and mortality in a cohort of Swedish women" concluded following:[55]
A diet characterized by low carbohydrate and high protein intake was associated with increased total and particularly cardiovascular mortality amongst women. Vigilance with respect to long-term adherence to such weight control regimes is advisable.


+++

Our only problem are the wallies with lots of money, power, fame, titles etc who want to be 'special' and for whom money and law keep them in better style than all-comers.

There's the true problem underlying society.

Egotistical heads of state, psychopathic CEOs, criminally insane lawyers, vain pop singers, self-adoring professional sportsmen etc etc who don't want a fair society because life's so much better for them in the violently unequal society we have currently.


Meh.. You should know that I've developed a repulsion towards this sort of thinking nowadays. It's like whining and getting all depressed for no reason. Pretty sure I've thought this way at some point in my life. Seems more like promotion of learned helplessness.. Lots of the big sources promoting hopelessness are pretty messed up and difficult to work with in a cooperative way if you got to know them better. I've tried.

SB_UK
09-09-13, 05:44 AM
From all of the above links and Athos
... ... a low-carbohydrate diet high in vegetables, with a large proportion of proteins and oils coming from plant sources, decreases mortality with a hazard ratio of 0.8.

is the commonality.

Now - the only point is how much if any time is spent in the state of ketosis ?

I don't know the answer to this question.

SB_UK
09-09-13, 05:45 AM
Inuit survive in it, Athos shift regularly into it, completely wipes out epilepsy and other diseases
- it's very do-able.

But is it necessary ?

I'm shifting towards:
"a low-carbohydrate diet high in vegetables, with a large proportion of proteins and oils coming from plant sources, decreases mortality with a hazard ratio of 0.8"

-- which is very high in fibre and almost absent in sugars (all of them)/starch.

I think that the fibre can be used as an SCFA source <- evidence

I think that that diet above is consistent with maintaining ketosis <- it's the Athos diet

I think that ADHD (brain fog) may be caused by constant switching between carbs and ketones as fuel supply in brain
- and that the best way to avoid the constant transitioning is to eat as described in this post <- idea

- and to remain forever in ketosis.

-*-

That's an idea - I can't say whether it's right or wrong
- simply that it makes sense.

Should be noted that with a life-style of fasting days and exercise - that the ketosis state is easily maintained.

-*-

What's the problem with epidemiology ?
The problem is your control group.

Much of epidemiology compares a sick group to a slightly less sick group.

SB_UK
09-09-13, 05:58 AM
Video entitled vegan Atkins.

http://nutritionfacts.org/video/plant-based-atkins-diet/

Can't find whether the state of ketosis was tested for.

SB_UK
09-09-13, 06:03 AM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2989112/

Conclusion

A low-carbohydrate diet based on animal sources was associated with higher all-cause mortality in both men and women, whereas a vegetable-based low-carbohydrate diet was associated with lower all-cause and cardiovascular disease mortality rates.
I'm still unable to shift the feeling that gut biomic fibre fermentation to SCFAs consistent with a state of ketosis is what underlies health.
The other 'thing' I'd like to know is if we can harvest amino acids from gut bacteria.

Because then we'd have a mechanism of 'powering' (SCFA (energy) and amino acids) off fibre alone.

That'd be a really neat mechanism - especially since most people are told that fibre has no nutritional content.

It'd be evolutionarily smart too - to allow us to survive off a food product which is easy to source.

As far as I'm aware - this entire mechanism isn't entirely dissimilar to rumen organisms
- so has evolutionary precedent.

SB_UK
09-09-13, 07:14 AM
note - I haven't any scientific proof of that idea -

... ... but I'm pretty sure it's right.

It fits.

I particularly like the balance between passing from animal eating to vegetarian, and from anti-social to social species.

Abi
09-09-13, 07:17 AM
Humans evolved to eat a combination of vegetable matter and flesh.

If we were not meant to eat flesh, we would not be able to chew or digest in.

Numerous important amino acids are almost impossible to come by on a purely vegan diet.

SB_UK
09-09-13, 07:45 AM
Selecting for properties which favour survival is what I'd expect of evolution.
I can't imagine evolution generating a gas guzzling species in a world that's running out of gas.

Eating 'clean' animal products isn't going to be possible for the planet.

Eating vegetables would.

Eating predominantly fibre definitely so.

The thing about using an evolutionary argument is that it is of limited use.

Take a look at the most advanced bacteria and you'll never work out that human beings would arise from it.

New stuff happens.

As far as I can see - and in line with 'The Thrifty gene hypothesis'
- we appear to be eating too much of the wrong things.

When we switch to a vegan vegetable diet - 'more-ish' foods (hyperglycaemic) vanish - and the body eats only what it needs.

The sole problem with vegan vegetable 'd be where our energy and protein come from.

Research which shows fibre can be metabolized to energy wipes out one of these questions.
And amino acids ? Well - it is possible to get all amino acids on a vegan diet, but harder on a vegetable vegan diet ... ... unless our gut bacteria are able to lend a hand with amino acid synthesis too.

SB_UK
09-09-13, 07:48 AM
Here're references:
http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1482932&postcount=14
http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1482935&postcount=15

SB_UK
09-09-13, 07:53 AM
So - the mechanism is there for gut bacteria to use nitrate (veggies) to generate amino acids and for the absorption of SCFAs and amino acids into the body from the colon.

That would be a very elegant mechanism.

Nobody'd like knowing that not only are we meant to eat 5 portions of veggies per day - we may have evolved to need to eat only 5 portions of veggies.

Is this idea correct ?

I think so.

It ticks all of the boxes.

SB_UK
09-09-13, 10:53 AM
It has to be admitted that food is the only thing we need to survive.
That evolution would always be on the look out for ways to promote survival.
That being able to survive on less, and especially less of a simply sourced food (fibre in veg) 'd make great sense from an evolutionary perspective.
And that we have these zillions of bacteria in our gut - which wouldn't be there unless the were providing very useful physiological function.
We've the incredible gut - brain and gut biome - gut - brain axis, which eg 95% of serotonin produced by bacteria - is screaming out something along the lines that healthy, happy gut bacteria make healthy, happy people.

Living on vegetable-sourced fibre alone (ostensibly) ?

Certainly all of the very many microbiologists who fell into genetics of complex disease 'd be vindicated
- though by a somewhat tortuous route.

It's funny that GWAS has become MWAS.

But - ultimately - you're not gonna' change a human beings genome, or microbiome
- other than naturally (microbiome).

And which 2 factors mess up the microbiome ?
Bad food and chronic stress.

But what's good food ?
Fibre rich vegetables - cover all the bases.

SB_UK
09-09-13, 11:07 AM
But why is this an ADDer thing ?
Good question.

Well - the deal with ADHD is a shift from selfish to social reward system.

A shift away from the blood glucose elevation for stimulation/reward (primitive reward system) for the social reward system.

So - we (ADDers) lose the blood glucose elevation reward paradigm, obtain reward from social behaviour - our diet isn't permanently deviated towards animal protein/starch - both of which drive up blood glucose
- we eat just to eat - we shift 'happily' to a veggie fibre based diet
- cultivate a fibre-degradation microbiome

- which is able to supply us with SCFAs and amino acids.

Though there's plenty of protein in green leaves too - so the biome isn't necessary, just a bonus.

SB_UK
09-09-13, 11:17 AM
So good quality 'poop' (as the best sign of happy gut bacteria) is all you need (within a loving societal infrastructure).

Southpark should re-release the Beatles song - with Mr Hankypoo on vocals.

Fibre-rich veggies in a chronic stress free environment.

It's interesting how we've developed so close an attachment to gut bacteria.

Fully collaborative working inside the body - and yet we continue with competitive workplace practices driven by rules of the global economic system

We're going to need to discard the global economic system.
To reduce the stress we're under.

Think of your gut bacteria !

Do it for them if not for you.

SB_UK
09-09-13, 11:20 AM
Though they are kinda' you.

Amtram
09-09-13, 12:13 PM
Humans evolved to eat a combination of vegetable matter and flesh.

If we were not meant to eat flesh, we would not be able to chew or digest in.

Numerous important amino acids are almost impossible to come by on a purely vegan diet.

It's also nearly impossible to have a ketogenic diet that is vegan. Ketogenic means 90% of calories come from fat, the rest from carbs and proteins. Vegan gets almost all its calories from carbs, as vegetables and fruits are nearly non-fat and all carb, and proteins have to be assembled from food combinations that fill out the amino acid profile that makes up proteins.

A lacto-ovo or pescatarian vegetarian diet can be ketogenic, but it's going to be more animal products than vegetarian in order to hit that, so it hardly resembles a vegetarian diet in the end.

The potential health issues of a vegan or vegetarian diet aren't as dangerous as the ones from a ketogenic diet, though. Nutritional shortcomings can be addressed with supplements. Women might have greater consequences from a vegetarian or vegan diet that men do, though, because of the phytoestrogens from plants. One of the reasons I had to go back to an omnivorous lifestyle was because of the increase in size and number of cysts and fibroid tumors caused by the amount of phytoestrogens in my diet. (I was even advised to do this by a doctor who was, herself, vegetarian!)

A ketogenic diet (a real ketogenic diet, not a low GI diet) needs medical supervision. Not only do you need to keep close track of every bite of food, but you need to test your urine at least twice a day for ketones to make sure you don't slip into ketoacidosis, which will kill you. The only condition this diet is proven to help is seizure disorders - but even if you have them, doctors don't like to keep patients on a ketogenic diet for more than two years. It disrupts your body's acid balance, and your kidneys attempt to compensate. Kidney stones and even renal failure are common outcomes. After two years, there can be significant bone loss from the body leaching calcium in order to neutralize the acidity of the blood.

Regular bone densiometry and kidney function tests are needed so that these problems can be detected before they become severe, and the diet can be stopped.

So rather than preventing disease through diet, certain extreme diets actually cause disease.

qinkin
09-10-13, 09:46 PM
It's also nearly impossible to have a ketogenic diet that is vegan. Ketogenic means 90% of calories come from fat, the rest from carbs and proteins. Vegan gets almost all its calories from carbs, as vegetables and fruits are nearly non-fat and all carb, and proteins have to be assembled from food combinations that fill out the amino acid profile that makes up proteins.


---


As an extreme example, even if you only ate one kind of grain, bean, potato, or vegetable as a protein source, and ate enough of that food, you could meet your protein and amino acid needs. Admittedly, it would be a very monotonous way to eat and you might miss out on other nutrients. We point this out, however, to illustrate the idea that almost all non-animal protein sources contain all of the essential amino acids. Table 3 above shows the amount of rice, corn, potatoes, or tofu that an adult male would need to eat if he relied on only one food as a protein source. Women would need about 20% less food because of women’s lower protein requirements.


http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/protein.php

It makes more sense for those living in poverty, to not spend money on things like meat though. In terms of nutrition from a single source concerning calories and macronutrients, spending the majority of your money on things like rice and beans or similar things makes more sense.

I probably haven't researched this sufficiently, but it appears that you can do more based on intake of food sources like rice and beans (source of macronutrients) which don't include meat as opposed to just meat, as they contain enough of the essential stuff to keep you on your feet and physically exert work/labor for many years (I guess given u also take in relatively much smaller quantities of foods with vitamins) . The less dietary energy you have access to (there are some upper limits) the less work you can physically perform on a daily basis.

http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/protein.php


Inuit survive in it, Athos shift regularly into it, completely wipes out epilepsy and other diseases
- it's very do-able.
Thing is, people also shouldn't be forced to simply go out on a limb and just believe what they cannot trust. The Inuits and Athos are somewhat weak in terms of evidence I think, just based on a small initial overview of the topic. I'm not quite seeing where ADHD enters the picture either. I'm leaning towards probably not partly because I remember people once believing that sugar caused hyperactivity in children, and then that turning out to be a myth. Not saying the idea of ketosis isn't a valid alternative, nor that veganism isn't either (if you can do it right).

So - the mechanism is there for gut bacteria to use nitrate (veggies) to generate amino acids and for the absorption of SCFAs and amino acids into the body from the colon.


The fiber into energy concerning humans thing seems a bit of a stretch. I don't understand the mechanism or whatever you are talking about involving nitrate. Some of the gut bacteria (not human cells) probably use this fiber energy to reproduce and such and digest other foods that yield energy for uptake, but I don't see the sugars from fiber or whatever enter the blood stream directly in humans. I think of fiber as more of a digestive aid, and it is important for overall health. There are established minimum daily requirements in the US. Amino acids are obtained from food in diet that has those amino acids, it seems. Getting the full spectrum does not always require that you eat animal products. Maybe for B12, u need some (maybe leaner meats are preferable) animal products.


Video entitled vegan Atkins.

http://nutritionfacts.org/video/plan...d-atkins-diet/

Can't find whether the state of ketosis was tested for.

Results not bad at all it seems. That's the sort of picture I would expect from what I have read so far. Dunno, it says getting the body into a state of ketosis is referred to as the "induction" phase of the traditional Atkins diet, from wikipedia article. It's at least the major part of the first phase. I don't see why eating animals products or just minimized amounts of animal products would effect the ketosis state.


No - I love lentils and rice ... ... both of which're off.
So what do you eat lol? I imagine like a bowl full of veggies, some nuts, drizzled with plant based oils, and maybe some fruits mixed with salads, maybe some soy stuff. ???

SB_UK
09-12-13, 04:59 AM
So what do you eat lol? I imagine like a bowl full of veggies, some nuts, drizzled with plant based oils, and maybe some fruits mixed with salads, maybe some soy stuff. ???

That's exactly it.

SB_UK
09-12-13, 05:13 AM
I need to make 1 point about the Mount Athos population.

-*-

The thing about the Athos population is that it's a population without physical stress (good food and shelter) and without psychological stress (no social hierarchy, money, ownership) ... ... ...
--- that's really an important point.

Because it's really so hard to find a population with that absence of chronic stress profile - elsewhere in the world.

There're probably tribal communities which are similar - but it's likely that those populations 'd be at the risk of food shortages / infectious diseases
- and so still under chronic stress.

It's possible that there are some other populations without chronic psych. and phys. stress which I don't know about - and it'd be great to find them and to study them for absence of disease ... ... but I just don't know of any.

-*-

All that I'm trying to suggest is that standard epidemiology requires a control group - and there may be few, if any populations other that Athos in which the individuals are subject to an absence of chronic physiological/psychological stress.

So - it's the ultimate confounder in epidemiology - and what this means for the hypothesis I'm generating - is that standard epiD results need to be interpreted with care, and with this in mind.

-*-

That's the point I'm making - and if somebody can point me to a population which has an absence of chronic toxic physical/psychological disease and is choc-full of disease (the diseases we suffer from)
- then I'll (un)happily reject the hypothesis.

Why unhappily ?
Because if generating a gobal society which is without chronic physical/psychological stress fails to alleviate disease - then I can't suggest ANY alternative approach which could work.

We're too complicated (internally) to intervene.

By the day - molecular research is proving how complicated we are.

Just today - to a great banner headline of 'stem cells to grow organs for individuals' - the final line was - and mice supporting such stem cell were found to have a far greater incidence of 'cancer like tumours'.

Without thinking too deeply - we know that Dolly the sheep aged faster and became riddled with cancer - surely all that's happening is that stem cells have aged (telomeres shortened) - conferring reduced lifespans on their daughter cells ? used in regeneration.

-*-

We may just have to take really good care of the organs we have - so no liver damage to alcohol (stress relief) - no lung damage (COPD,lung cancer) to cigarettes(stress relief) - so no heart disease to eating animal products/starch (in stress relief).

There's a really obvious pattern in the first 3 organs of collapse which pop to mind.

Stress.

Stress relief.

Eliminating the need for stress relief by ensuring that people aren't stressed in the first place.

Article on stem cells - limb regeneration.
http://metro.co.uk/2013/09/12/very-significant-stem-cell-breakthrough-could-pave-way-to-regrow-legs-3960105/

One drawback of the technique in its present form is that it caused some of the mice to develop cancer-like tumours.

SB_UK
09-12-13, 06:00 AM
Why unhappily ?
Because if generating a global society which is without chronic physical/psychological stress fails to alleviate disease - then I can't suggest ANY alternative approach which could work.

From as objective a perspective as possible -
there is no alternative to chronic stress alleviation as basis to overcoming the common disorders.

Even if it were possible - we're not going to be able to afford pharmaceutical or surgical interventions soon.
Already governments in rich countries are being broken based on health policy.

-*-

On a side-note - it's interesting that Dizfriz, Qinkin, Lunacie, Amtram, Barliman, Peripheral, Namazu, Sarek, Abi ... ... are remarkably all similar to people I know in real life.
And when they're nasty on-line :(
-they're nice in real life
... ... and the converse.

Can't move for medicine and affiliated field (chemistry, pharmaceutical industry) expertise.

-*-

But at the end of the day - it's just a bit of real food in a stress free environment.

The Wellcome Trust Centre for Preventing all of Human Disease.

-*-

Now I need to work out why I can't remember anything.

Lunacie
09-12-13, 11:26 AM
Nope, not true. Monasteries do have a hierarchy. There is usually a "Father"
at the head of each monastery to settle disputes and pass down communication
from the Holy Community (council).


Mount Athos is governed by the “Holy Community” a council of representatives from the 20 monasteries with the participation of the Greek State through its representative in Karyes, the capitol city. The executive organ of the “Holy Community” is the four-member “Holy Epistasia” headed by the “Protepistate”. Responsibility for spiritual matters comes under the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, while matters of public order and safety come under the representative governor of the Greek state.


http://www.mountathosinfos.gr/home.en.html

SB_UK
09-12-13, 02:40 PM
Disputes in a monastery ?

I wonder what they're about.

SB_UK
09-12-13, 02:47 PM
http://www.dnaindia.com/analysis/1621916/column-sri-sri-ravi-shankar-of-enlightenment
Memory of events, or of trivial experiences will lead you into bondage.Life's better with no incessantly chattering working memory

- unless you're in a workplace [which does nothing of any real worth - none of them do] where it's absolutely crucial.
If you are in ignorance, it is only because of your memory.
Forgetting life’s trivial things, incidents, and sadness is bliss.

Your name, age, address are all trivial things.

SB_UK
09-12-13, 02:56 PM
http://www.youaretrulyloved.com/enlightenment/if-enlightenment-came-with-a-warning-label/
The more you begin living in the moment and letting go of the domination of your consciousness by your mind, you may begin experiencing memory loss. Whole blocks of memory will begin falling away. It’s not exactly like Alzehimer’s, but there very well may be some significant loss of short-term and/or long-term memory as you begin relying less upon memory and more upon a deeper intuitive knowingness.

So - pushing ideas into memory becomes an active process which brings on feelings of exhaustion as you attempt to push things in - information that makes no sense.
Grow tired - write it down and remember a pointer to information and not the information itself.

That's how it seems to work.

Stored pointers to information and not the information itself.

meadd823
09-14-13, 04:07 AM
Stress makes me nauseated so I don't want to eat any thing at all. . .. what is good for the goose is not necessarily good for the gander.


Mt Athro life style will cure all diseases.

My dyslexia ADHD translation

No stress, no disease,no females, no children, no human race = All of our problems will be solved.

NO scientific research paper required because some things in life really are that simple. :eek:

SB_UK
09-14-13, 04:18 AM
Stress makes me nauseated so I don't want to eat any thing at all. . .. what is good for the goose is not necessarily good for the gander.


I have both reactions.

Nausation - feeling it currently - higher stress - as if something bad ia about to/has happened.
Increased desire for carbs (sweets etc) whilst in slightly lesser stress eg writing something boring.


There are very stong commonalities between people - we all have a head, two eyes etc etc - and commonalities extend into the 'internal' world of mind stipulating behaviour - people though seem to feel as though their individuality is lessened if similarities are divined in that 'internal' world.

By 'internal' - I'm trying to point to the world of motivation.

If we're lightly stressed and people pour sugar into their bodies, or heavily stressed and nauseated - there's no absolute proof (ie proof directly in front of your eyes) - that this is the case.
Sure - we can develop experiments - but there'll always be doubt about indirect observations compared to eg denial that all human beings have 2 eyes.

In a world of ego - where people actually kid themselves into believing they're more individual, special, different than the next person
- science has its work cut out to point out the similarities between people
- at a hidden (not immediately obvious eg 2 eyes) level.

I'm trying to suggest that the mind of ego isn't predisposed to seeing similarities between people - because it's preoccupied with making itself as 'distinct' as possible.

We all react the same way to stress.

Gentle stress - hyperglycaemia - reactive hypoglycaemia - hunger which involves foods which restore blood glucose levels.
This is a basic physiological circuit.

And extreme stress - blood drawn away from the rest and digest (gastrointestinal system) system - 'nauseation' - food intake is the last thing on your mind.

meadd823
09-14-13, 04:35 AM
I am not trying to be different I am saying I do not crave carbohydrates when stressed - period that includes all stress Why is that a problem?

Carbs like wheat and such cause me to feel like my stomach is going to blow up and some times it does - which end it blows out of well is any bodies guess :o

I can not process legumes at all , my stomach thinks they are poison - I know which end they will come out of - more predictable yes but not any more pleasant

I see many people eat beans and not puke because they have the enzymes to digest them therefore I do have issues others do not just as they have issues I do not -

Conscious oneness is not to be mistaken as physical sameness - Mind consciousness can be shared among individuals who are different just as my cells are different with in a single body.

It takes a diversity of color to paint the picture of life - for a single color is only capable of producing a blank page. My stance has not changed for I know deep within that


Diversity isn't the enemy fear of it is.




. . . .

Amtram
09-14-13, 11:22 AM
We all react the same way to stress.



No, we do not. If you're starting from this premise, then your conclusions will inevitably be flawed. Human diversity encompasses emotional diversity as well, and stress reactions can differ widely even among people who share the same environment, even including those who are blood relatives and live together.

There have been numerous threads here on the forums alone in which people have discussed completely different responses to stress and reactions to stressful situations. Simply talking to other people IRL about how they react to stress will yield a number of varying results. It does not take a scientific study to refute this. Nowhere in human history do we have examples of everyone reacting in the same way to stress.

meadd provided an example that is a direct refutation of your assertions about stress eating. She is only one. People who eat more when stressed outnumber people who eat less, but there are still people who eat less when stressed. Of those who eat when stressed, the carb-cravers outnumber the fat- or protein-cravers, but they don't comprise the whole of people who eat when stressed.

And this also completely excludes the portion of the population that actually thrive under stress and seek it out. Or perform better under stress and need it periodically to balance themselves emotionally. You find them quite frequently in hospitals, firehouses, police stations, and volunteering in emergency response and dangerous and impoverished places. If everyone reacted identically to stress, either we would not have any of these individuals, or we would all be exactly like them. Clearly, that is not the case.

SB_UK
09-14-13, 01:35 PM
Cortisol has defined effects on the body.

Stress drives cortisol production.

Not sure what there's to argue about here ?

Hormones don't decide to do something different based on whim.

SB_UK
09-14-13, 01:50 PM
I am not trying to be different I am saying I do not crave carbohydrates when stressed - period that includes all stress Why is that a problem?

Carbs like wheat and such cause me to feel like my stomach is going to blow up and some times it does - which end it blows out of well is any bodies guess :o

I can not process legumes at all , my stomach thinks they are poison - I know which end they will come out of - more predictable yes but not any more pleasant

I see many people eat beans and not puke because they have the enzymes to digest them therefore I do have issues others do not just as they have issues I do not -

Conscious oneness is not to be mistaken as physical sameness - Mind consciousness can be shared among individuals who are different just as my cells are different with in a single body.

It takes a diversity of color to paint the picture of life - for a single color is only capable of producing a blank page. My stance has not changed for I know deep within that


Diversity isn't the enemy fear of it is.

. . . .

Is diversity of toxins in our food a good thing ?
Or would you prefer none ?

SB_UK
09-14-13, 01:53 PM
Knowing when diversity is a good thing is important.

Diversity of reactions to chronic stress isn't anything to be proud of.
Isn't even worth discussing.

What's worth discussing is how to eliminate chronic stressors.

Diversity of chronic stressors really isn't something that any human beings should desire.

SB_UK
09-14-13, 01:58 PM
What's worth discussing is how to eliminate chronic stressors.


Back on topic.

And when they're eliminated there won't be any need for Medical/Life Science workers.

Medical/Life Science workers in trouble.

Providing the perfect conclusion to this thread.

Chronic stress eliminated - as described in pretty much every thread I've posted on over the last few years here.

Amtram
09-14-13, 04:14 PM
Yes, there will be. You have still provided absolutely zero evidence that there is no such thing as a genetic defect that needs medical treatment. You have provided absolutely zero evidence that lifestyle protects against pathogens. And we haven't even gotten into the need for medical and science workers to treat injuries. . .those are not caused by stress, they're caused by, well, mostly impact.

And, to reiterate the point about some people thriving on stress, what about those people who chose these professions and would be stressed by a placid-incident free life? For them, the lack of stimulation would be far more stressful than having to spring into action in an emergency. And if they were inclined to help people in the first place, how stressful would it be to them to watch someone suffer without taking action?

SB_UK
09-15-13, 03:19 AM
All answered.
In brief:

1-examples - 2 definite mechanisms
[a]
reduced stress -> reduced genomic translocations -> prevent genetic disease

no money -> no pollutants -> eliminate exposure to mutagen
http://pool.theinfosphere.org/images/4/41/Million_Mutant_March.png

2-examples - 2 definite mechanisms
[a]
Flu virus emerges on environmental considerations (low hygiene, overcrowding
- correct environmental factors (switch to vegan diet) -> eliminate emergence of eg flu virus (as example of emergence of pathogen).
[b]
Also - stress reduces immune cell functioning
- allows overgrowth of innate pathogen -> disease
So ... ... eliminating stress 'll result in stronger capacity to fight over pathogen
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3-Injuries
How many injuries result from attempting unsafe practices on account of needing to earn money.
Last thing kids saw on TV - high death rate due to starving Bangladeshis working on highly unsafe ship reclamation projects - literally hanging off and sometimes falling off ocean going ships - they wouldn't work on such projects if they didn't need money and there would be no ships in an intelligent world of global transport see ref. to Elon Musk's new technology for shifting people using 'vacuum tube' technology.
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4-Nobody thrives on stress - if you're under chronic stress you die.
If you need stress to complete a project - then what you're doing is tapping into the motivation to escape 'stressor' (eg man eating animal) to gain motivation to complete a project.
That will work as motivation - as long as it's not used constantly.
In medicine - and as described under negative feedback in the neuro- and endocrine-systems - the body homeostatically downregulate sensitivity to hormones (eg cortisol) with increased exposure. The so called resistance syndromes.
You really don't want to be resistant to eg cortisol
- the glucocorticoid receptor is present in all cells of the body, I believe
- and so you've all the trappings of systemically knocking out physiological function - particularly immune cell function.

And what's the commonality underlying Western disorders ?
Exuberant inflammation.

-*-

In summary - each of Amtram's points has been addressed through example
- and using a stress-free (physical and psychological) population as a paradigm (Mount Athos)
[B]
- there are NO industrial mutagens, no Western disorders, no injuries, no infectious disease outbreaks/epidemics, no need for stress to motivate.

- similarly - they are perfectly sustainable and leave the planet in at least as good a state as they found it - and in most cases a better state.

All that medical science / life science does is cock a leg over the planet and pour the nastiest toxins (ever seen what comes out of a person undergoing chemotherapy ?) into the planet's ecosystem.

Western medicine/medical research is fundamentally wrong - because, and as stated by Hippocrates/epidemiology - the point is prevention - because who's to say whether cure is possible.

And the mechanism of prevention is simply to generate a stress-free world which is achieved through all people generating their own food and zero energy shelter for themselves.

And then doing whatever they want for the rest of the time.

If it's setting world record for hopping under oak trees - then go for it.

Nobody's hurt by the individual's decision - the individual 'll be healthier for the effort
- and it's not as if (beyond the generation of a fair and sustainable planet) - anything beyond the pursuit of personal reward within context of society
- is worthwhile.

Formalised - as 'do no harm - otherwise whatever'.

SB_UK
09-15-13, 03:27 AM
100% guarantee

- end suffering by introducing a world of equality.

Equality achieved by all people generating their own survival essentials of food/shelter for themselves - co-operatively.

Thereafter - nobody need ever be a wage slave.

Money will collapse.

The world of equality, liberty and fraternity
The world of 'land of the free'
The world of 'hope and glory'

- will be here.

Red, white and blue -- representing the polar extremes of red and blue generating a spectrum (rainbow) and then merging - white.

red -- white -- blue

-*-

Equality as root to the alleviation of suffering.

SB_UK
09-15-13, 03:36 AM
I believe that the GC receptor's ubiquity and cortisol resistance, as well as the anti-inflammatory (anti-growth) properties of cortisol
- give rise to the current epidemic of cancer.

Cancer is caused by human beings under constant chronic stress under a global societal infrastructure in which the survival essentials are not availed to all as birth-right.

Cortisol resistance -> loss of growth inhibition -> exuberant growth -> cancer
- fuelled by excess carb/protein intake.

Lunacie
09-15-13, 10:07 AM
I believe that the GC receptor's ubiquity and cortisol resistance, as well as the anti-inflammatory (anti-growth) properties of cortisol
- give rise to the current epidemic of cancer.

Cancer is caused by human beings under constant chronic stress under a global societal infrastructure in which the survival essentials are not availed to all as birth-right.

Cortisol resistance -> loss of growth inhibition -> exuberant growth -> cancer
- fuelled by excess carb/protein intake.


Cancer is known to be caused by many things: carcinogens in the
environment (including sunlight!), damaged or mutated DNA, and
predisposition (heredity), and viruses. Stress may lower our bodies
resistance to these things, but I doubt it's a cause all by itself.
.

Amtram
09-15-13, 11:31 AM
[a]
Flu virus emerges on environmental considerations (low hygiene, overcrowding
- correct environmental factors (switch to vegan diet) -> eliminate emergence of eg flu virus (as example of emergence of pathogen).

No evidence. Susceptibility to flu virus has nothing to do with hygiene. Overcrowding influences only the number of cases - denser populations will have higher incidences only because of person-to-person contact. False statement.


[b]
Also - stress reduces immune cell functioning
- allows overgrowth of innate pathogen -> disease
So ... ... eliminating stress 'll result in stronger capacity to fight over pathogen

Maybe. Sometimes. Stress does not confer susceptibility, nor does it confer immunity. There is absolutely no possible way to eliminate all stress for all people, so this is not even a debatable point. One of the biggest stressors is the illness or death of a loved one. Without medical sciences, children will die in infancy, wives will die in childbirth, one spouse will die before the other, and grandparents, parents, aunts, uncles, and others will predecease us. You've moved the goalposts so many times that even a single incidence of stress in an otherwise "ideal" society has been enough to explain their evidence of disease. If it applies to those societies, it will apply to all, forever, unless humanity dies off entirely and there's no-one left to experience stress.
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3-Injuries
How many injuries result from attempting unsafe practices on account of needing to earn money.

The majority of fatal accidents happen at home. Auto accidents happen to people on their way to visit family or friends or go on vacation. People who are killed while diving into shallow water or boating or hiking or riding bicycles or motorized recreational vehicles are not doing these things to earn money. Work-related deaths comprise only a small percentage of all accidental deaths. In the US, about 4,300 of the 121,000 accidental deaths are work-related. (From the CDC and Bureau of Labor Statistics.)

Elon Musk's new technology for shifting people using 'vacuum tube' technology.

Yeah, I can't see anything ever going wrong with that.


4-Nobody thrives on stress - if you're under chronic stress you die.
If you need stress to complete a project - then what you're doing is tapping into the motivation to escape 'stressor' (eg man eating animal) to gain motivation to complete a project.

This directly contradicts what ER doctors, firefighters, and EMTs say. Most of them get into those professions because they enjoy the stress and perceive it as exciting rather than stressful. People who participate in extreme sports also deliberately put themselves in stressful (often death-defying) situations because they enjoy the stress and find it exciting rather than stressful. To an extent, people who enjoy Horror movies or Psychological Thriller movies and books are deliberately exposing themselves to stress because they enjoy it.

In addition, you are muddying the waters by equating two completely different kinds of stress.


In summary - each of Amtram's points has been addressed through example
- and using a stress-free (physical and psychological) population as a paradigm (Mount Athos)

No, they've been addressed by speculation based upon isolated anecdotes. Nor have you adequately answered any of the examples that contradict these speculations. They have either been completely ignored, or answered with explanations that would also contradict said speculations.

And the mechanism of prevention is simply to generate a stress-free world which is achieved through all people generating their own food and zero energy shelter for themselves.

Food depends on weather. Lack of food because of inhospitable weather would cause stress. Depending on only what you grow yourself increases stress because you have no communal cooperation.

Zero energy shelter is also stressful, because it would consist of huts/cabins/tents made from local materials. Without hierarchy, there is nobody providing energy, running water, sewerage and treatment, much less anything that uses them. And if you're not able to make (and repair) your own dwelling, when weather makes it uncomfortable, it will cause stress. And when weather makes it uninhabitable (fire, tornadoes, tsunamis, hurricanes, extreme heat or cold) you may very well die even if you are the most stress-free individual on the planet. There's no question that the tsunamis in Indonesia in 2004 and 2009 took out more than a few Buddhist monks.

In other words, no, not all answered. Not answered at all.

SB_UK
09-15-13, 12:42 PM
Cancer is known to be caused by many things: carcinogens in the
environment (including sunlight!), damaged or mutated DNA, and
predisposition (heredity), and viruses. Stress may lower our bodies
resistance to these things, but I doubt it's a cause all by itself.
.

Stress isn't the cause - chronic stress destroys the natural mechanism (cortisol sensitivity) which can protect us from repairing DNA damage.

So - identifying what damages DNA isn't important - damage can come from plenty of places
- what's important is that we've a mechanism of DNA repair which is crippled.

SB_UK
09-15-13, 12:43 PM
Mechanism ... ...

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0020795

Accelerated ageing through stress exposure.

Cancer - is a form of accelerated ageing - our cells have only a certain number of divisions in them - until telomere shortening signals doom.

SB_UK
09-15-13, 12:49 PM
Prolonged stress is thought to induce a “wear and tear” syndrome, in which a range of compensatory physiological mechanisms as well as behavioural changes leads to negative health influences [1] (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0020795#pone.0 020795-McEwen1). For example, it is well established that chronic stress increases the risk of cardiovascular disease [2] (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0020795#pone.0 020795-Brotman1). Stress may also have atrophic effects in distinct areas of the brain [3] (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0020795#pone.0 020795-Sapolsky1), induce immunosuppression, and contribute to the progression of some kinds of cancer [4] (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0020795#pone.0 020795-Reiche1). Stress-related mental disorders such as depression are associated with an increased non-suicide mortality [5] (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0020795#pone.0 020795-Wulsin1).

-*-

cortisol may potentially induce oxidatively generated damage to cellular constituents

and

Considerable evidence has linked oxidative damage and cancer.

-*-

refs.

1 http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0020795
2 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1850635/

-*-

There's a Holy grail argument here linking stress (anaerobic, glucose, glycolysis) to stress (aerobic, oxidative phosphorylation, mitochondria, electron transport chain)
- the two metabolic stresses.

Amtram
09-15-13, 01:01 PM
You're still making a huge leap in terms of evidence and conclusion. These studies isolate variables and provide evidence for those things studied. In some cases, a mechanism might be discovered, but it does not mean that the specific mechanism for the specific thing can be assumed to work exactly the same way for everything in general.

There is no scientific support for this degree of reductionism.

In fact, if you look at biology as a whole, you will see that there simply is no such thing as a universal cause and effect, meaning that there is no such thing as a panacea. And cancer is probably the least supportive condition to use as an example, as there is an enormous amount of evidence that shows that it is the most complex condition across all species, including humans. There are numerous cancers that have well-established causes or strong correlations that are unrelated to "stress" or, indeed, the condition of an individual's immune function. Each cancer responds to specific treatments and not to others. Because of cancer's nature, it is the least likely condition to be caused by "stress" or prevented by lack of "stress."

SB_UK
09-15-13, 01:26 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telomere#Shortening
Telomere shortening due to free radicals explains the difference between the estimated loss per division because of the end-replication problem (ca. 20 bp) and actual telomere shortening rates (50-100 bp), and has a greater absolute impact on telomere length than shortening caused by the end-replication problem.

The telomere-shortening mechanism normally limits cells to a fixed number of divisions, and animal studies suggest that this is responsible for aging on the cellular level and sets a limit on lifespans. Telomeres protect a cell's chromosomes from fusing with each other or rearranging—abnormalities that can lead to cancer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cancer)."cortisol may potentially induce oxidatively generated damage to cellular constituents"

SB_UK
09-15-13, 02:15 PM
Stress underlies all of human suffering.

Amtram
09-15-13, 02:23 PM
Sweeping generalizations underlie all false assumptions.

Lunacie
09-15-13, 03:49 PM
Stress underlies all of human suffering.

Or ... causes of suffering are very stressful. It's all the same thing.
.

SB_UK
09-16-13, 04:16 AM
http://globetrotter.berkeley.edu/people2/Marmot/marmot-con3.html
So I spent quite a lot of time looking at it in the first Whitehall study, and the remarkable finding, which ran counter both to my expectations at the time, and I think most other people's, was firstly, just looking at heart disease, it was not the case that people in high [-ly paid] jobs had a higher risk of heart attack, rather it went exactly the other way: people at the bottom of the hierarchy had a higher risk of heart attacks. Secondly, it was a social gradient. The lower you were in the hierarchy, the higher the risk. So it wasn't top versus bottom, but it was graded. And, thirdly, the social gradient applied to all the major causes of death. I had come out of the model of, "If you want to understand heart disease, look for the cause of heart disease." We know something about cholesterol and blood pressure and overweight and diabetes, "Let's look for these things." But it applied to all the major causes of death -- to cardiovascular disease, to gastrointestinal disease, to renal disease, to stroke, to accidental and violent deaths, to cancers that were not related to smoking as well as cancers that were related to smoking -- all the major causes of death.Just understand the following 2 simple sentences and you'll see that a form of stress (chronic through social division/inequality) results in ALL diseases.

Secondly, it was a social gradient. The lower you were in the hierarchy, the higher the risk.
... ... it applied to all the major causes of death -- to cardiovascular disease, to gastrointestinal disease, to renal disease, to stroke, to accidental and violent deaths, to cancers that were not related to smoking as well as cancers that were related to smoking -- all the major causes of death.Mechanism (from directly above)
->- chronic stress ->- chronic cortisol production ->- oxidative stress.

There's no other explanation.

Equality as root to alleviation of suffering.

'omics, statistics and massive data generation aren't going to make people better.

It's just easy stuff that we can do - by virtue of the relative ease of working with DNA and handling data.

Human beings are stressed in a socially hierarchical structure
- it's not human.

There should be specialization - but anybody who trains should be supported in surpassing their 'master'
- we live in a school / workplace - where peopel compete to keep others down by cheating
- and not support others to improve beyond their teacher's capabilities.

Only the most psychopathic, greedy, deluded rise to the top.

Just look at the Heads of State in the Middle East (and elsewhere) to see the extent of psychopathy rising to the upper positions of hierarchy.

SB_UK
09-16-13, 04:44 AM
I'm struck by the fact that when you look at non-human primates you, of course, find hierarchies, but [also] hierarchies in disease. The subordinate monkeys in captivity or baboons in the wild appear to get more disease than the dominant ones.
This is interesting, because this is the new phase of your work, trying to find this biological link. So the output, in a way, is disease, and the input is this hierarchy, the social gradient. And the intervening variable is changes in the body over time, and the way stress operates on the hormonal system. Is that right?


Stress from inequality / a lower position in the hierarchy off the vertex
->-
oxidative damage [oxidative stress]
->- leads to->-
all disease

SB_UK
09-16-13, 04:51 AM
Now who wouldn't be able to understand this simple epidemiological conclusion, and simple biological mechanism ?

People who are in high positions in the hierarchy and like it, people who are trying to cure [pharmaceuticals, genomicists] problems which we can prevent

SB_UK
09-16-13, 06:16 AM
http://blogs.sap.com/innovation/human-resources/flat-hierarchy-means-less-stress-and-happier-nicer-individuals-0423552
Who is high in the hierarchy? The most aggressive and strong baboons. And every baboon knows that.

Over 20 years ago, something remarkable happened to one of the tribes Sapolski researched. All of a sudden, half of the tribe died because they got their food from a dumpster near a tourist camp that was infected with tuberculosis. Sapolski was angry and mad at the tourists, but realized a stunning change in the behavior of the baboons. The survivors were friendly and socialized all of a sudden. Only the aggressive baboons high in the hierarchy died from the disease because they were the only ones who got their hands on the limited food supply. Half of the survivors were female, and the few surviving males were, as he puts it, “just good guys” who groomed the others and socialized a lot. Stress levels decreased to an insignificant measure and all the typical baboon issues, such as immune system deficiencies due to stress, didn’t exist anymore.

The greedy aggressive ones get on in a hierarchical society.

immune system deficiencies = inflammation is a commonality underlying all Western disorders

SB_UK
09-16-13, 08:00 AM
Can we manage to change our mentality sustainably?

The eye-opening fact: All adolescent baboons joining the tribe from outside would be re-educated towards this highly social mentality of grooming and caring. They adopted the behavior and to this day, 20 years later, this baboon tribe shows no prevalence of aggression.
Lately, I’ve been thinking about this research on baboons. And during my commute, I wonder:


If baboons can change their society from a culture of receiving to a culture of giving, which makes people happier, what holds us as humans back?
If less hierarchy means less stress on the psyche, this must significantly increase creativity and innovation in our working life – what is holding us back?

An ever so simple solution to human suffering.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7lj-t-hx3o



'chills'

Lunacie
09-16-13, 10:48 AM
Now who wouldn't be able to understand this simple epidemiological conclusion, and simple biological mechanism ?

People who are in high positions in the hierarchy and like it, people who are trying to cure [pharmaceuticals, genomicists] problems which we can prevent

I don't think it's quite so black and white - and your red sentence explains
why. It's not just about who's on top and who's on bottom socially, it's
about who's happy with their position. I would have much more stress
being a leader, although having a poor leader certainly causes stress.
,.

Amtram
09-16-13, 11:45 AM
The position in the hierarchy has a lot of overlap in the amount of self-determination the position allows for. Not having control induces stress regardless of your wealth or social position, but lack of control is higher in lower-paid positions.

So you can't simply attribute stress to power or social position, or reduce the complex, nuanced social hierarchy of humans to that of primates in the wild. And in humans, chronic stress is rarely caused by position in a social hierarchy, because we are members of multiple hierarchies. And again, it's experience, not environment - as Lunacie pointed out, some people are stressed being leaders, some are not. Some people are stressed being led, some are not. Some people can escape the stress of one situation by having a different role in another.

If you think that something is incredibly simple, it usually means that you're overlooking or ignoring the important elements that make it not simple at all.

SB_UK
09-16-13, 03:21 PM
simple

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor

The razor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Razor_%28philosophy%29) states that one should proceed to simpler theories until simplicity can be traded for greater explanatory power.


Complete explanatory.
Incomparably simple.

No theory will topple it.

Stabile wins.

http://kbimages1-a.akamaihd.net/Images/92bf14c7-81b2-466a-b6b9-f83afe18d5d2/166/300/False/Stephen+Hawking.jpg

SB_UK
09-16-13, 03:33 PM
Science is easy.

SB_UK
09-16-13, 03:38 PM
(and dead)

SB_UK
09-16-13, 03:40 PM
Art is the new science.

Stephen Hawking has captured ToE.

(Theory of Everything)

In brief - 'go have fun' - for tomorrow you die.
And it'd be ever such a shame to die without completing just one frame of boson task.

Amtram
09-16-13, 05:58 PM
Occam's razor doesn't apply when you include infinite choices.