I don't even know how to begin to state this, as I consider myself to be strong, 'whatever wise'. ..
Flat out.. I have no idea how to fix my self. My emotions, trust, self worth, and other factors I've always deemed to be solid.
I've made the ridiculous assumption (for only the second time in my entire life, so don't be too harsh in your replies :* ) to value intimacy and love as being a priority in my life, only to have it profoundly, and I mean PROFOUNDLY backfire upon me.
I managed to go 29 years total without ever needing anyone for love, support, feedback, identity etc. From age 9 until 18 and from age 20 until 40.

And last summer, I let someone, whom I believed to be 'my best friend and lover', who 'loved and cared' for me, whom I thought the world of, and talked with, shared with, and 'opened up to' all my deepest, most sacred thoughts, and tribulations, basically dupe and use me.
Someone who let me believe it was wonderfully exhilarating to be myself, in every way. Who encouraged me and let me believe in him, and made me think he believed in me until the last possible moment.
Only to help him regain his self esteem, identity, and needs, only in the end to decide that I'm worthless, and discard me
.
There. I said it. How proud I am of myself.
All my education (lifewise or bookwise), and spirituality.... doesn't mean squat.
This has been, without a doubt, the most self destructive and depressing act I've ever perpetrated upon myself. And this is the only place in the entire world where I can say that it really really hurts.
I made a 'pinkie promise' to my "twin" on here that I wouldn't continue to sabotage myself any longer, and I did.
Sorry 'Mel'. I failed you. I'm not as strong as you! :)
I need help from y'all in helping me 'fix' me. Somehow...
If anyone knows how to help me duct tape the found miniscule pieces of my heart and soul that were boxed up and put upon my doorstep one Sunday afternoon, (I still can't find all of them, and I'm sure they're still in his apartment somewhere) and can help me make them, and myself, not look like a 'Frankenstein' of sorts, I would appreciate it.
I'm so sorry I ever let someone in, and hope to become more proficient in being yet more invisible and detached because of it.
Thank you,
Nova

Wow. I don't know where to begin…

You sure expressed it just exactly the way it is, and if you're looking for hope, there isn't any as long as this is the game you're playing. I wish it were otherwise, but I've spent the better part of my life looking at this from the male side, and the game is rigged. There is no honest version.

Kay and I have a 'dance card' metaphor we use for this – it's like any guy in the world can force the illusion that you have given him a dance card. (Another way to look at it is that he can force you to give him a bogus dance card, against your will.)

Dance cards come in different strengths of illusion, from barely real to quite convincing. But they all share a common trait: being bogus, they’re no good for an actual dance.

No matter how good the illusion (and a large part of the male game is making them look as good as possible, for safety), anybody that you see dancing who used one of these dance cards forced the woman, at least a little bit.

He has to make the leap over the space between the illusion and the reality of actually holding on and dancing. That leap is where things get messed up.

What you're doing by putting up your shields is keeping guys from making the leap. What's wrong with that? Who wants to be forced, even a little bit? It's just not right.

People make the mistake of thinking that this is the only way (guys sell that idea, hoping to shift their natural desperation onto your shoulders), or that the whole thing can be converted into a real dance, once things get going.

Guys make that last mistake a lot, because it's far tougher for us to stop and give the game up, a real leap of faith that isolates us as surely a your barrier isolates you.

So here's the only thing I can suggest, which has worked for us and lots of others here in the forums.

Turn away from the game. Putting up your barriers is fine, but don't mistake them for being really associated with the words you've used to describe them, like 'detached'. The only thing you're detaching yourself from is the game, and good riddance.

Once you turn away, you'll eventually see others of us that live out here, who also don't want to play. And maybe, when things are right, someone will ask for a dance card, and you'll give him a real one, maybe for the first time.

There are others like you out here. That's all we can offer. We all share your pain.

This is where my little sister always said having big brothers helped, but that was wrong, too.

If it's any consolation, the only parts that are really broken are the ones men use to force women to make the bogus dance cards. Good riddance to them, too, I say…

For the life of me Nova I can't see where you need to be "fixed". Getting duped doesn't just happen to the young and inexperienced. The duped get wiser and so the ones doing the duping are coming up with stronger, better tactics. I don't see where you were playing games, he certainly was. I wasn't there so I don't know if he was playing you from the beginning or changed midstream.

For a little while you felt worthy of love and exhilerated to be you. Does that make it untrue because dweebhead thought the grass was greener and broke your heart? It sounds like you gave a real dance card only for him to not join the dance, if I understand Stabile's analogy correctly (which by the way was really interesting and I hope you'll speak more on this subject).

If I were a single man I'd dance with you. You're genuine and have love to give but it takes a while to earn your trust. Keep your high standards, but don't give up on the male population. As you can see right in this forum there are nice guys who are looking for a trustworthy woman. (of course, on here they're about 200 miles or more away....but....) Being detatched from playing games is one thing, being detatched from accepting love and being vulnerable to a new relationship is unhealthy. Love leaves us vulnerable. But the benefits can be worth the risks. And there's no benefits without the risk.

If I may attempt to super glue a few pieces of your heart back in place, you are an exhilerating person completely worthy of love. For whatever reason he moved on that doesn't take away from your worth.

Dear Nova,


I have so little to off to what has been said to you already so eloquently. But I have read many of your posts and have seen nothing but a strong a healthy woman worthy of the most beautiful love.

Being "duped" was not your fault, and it is so easy to fall into the trap of self blame. It "is" possible, and this is only a hypothesis, that you were dealing with a Narcisist. If you were, you could never, ever have seen that coming. I know someone that is a narcisist and I can tell you that any woman this man gets involved with will be hurt. Not one of them would be able to see beyond the "beautiful" personage that they can portray.

I may be very wrong, and right or wrong, you are still dealing with abroken heart. I wish I could mend some of that hurt right now, but I can't. Words fail me to convey how much I feel for you right now.

You deserve better, Nova. You deserve the best. You are not, and were not to blame........Ever!

((((Hugs))))
Viktoria

Dear Nova,

Do not make the mistake of thinking that those who appear strong of heart actually are. Those who make the appearance are often the weakest link and the easiest to hurt. For instance there are many here who would believe me strong and in control when the truth is the smallest offense can break me.

Strength comes from experiance, from stepping past our pain and reaching out to acknowledge our pain and learn from it.

Yes, my friend you have made a grave mistake...that is in believing that you can change the essence of your being to prove your devotion to another. The only true offense was perpetrated not by you but by someone who used your trust, love and devotion for his own needs and then threw them down the drain. Truly a self destructive act.

Big hugs,
Cherity

(it is) a grave mistake …believing that you can change the essence of your being to prove your devotion to another…
Well said, Cherity.

For those of you who that have asked, this is the definition of taking the wrong path. If you have to change something in yourself to make it work, it's bound to break sooner or later, because he's faking his part.

No man who is honestly following his own path needs a woman to change herself. Whatever he needs is already present, or he would be following a different path, somewhere else. (Duh!)

This is one of the prime male tricks, a way to make it look as real as possible while he gets what he wants, and then –poof!- the whole faked path is gone. Nobody can sustain a lie forever, or wants to, or intends to.

Looking at his path, how he got there, should reveal this instantly. If you can see he's spent years trudging along, being true to his path and himself, then it's probably real. If you never noticed him there before, and can't see how he got there, it's fake.

But another prime trick is being able to confuse you, to make you think that breaking free of your old patterns is refreshing, exciting, a new start.

That dance card (that he forced you to create for him, when you weren't thinking he would use it) can look pretty convincing once he's holding it out and waiting for you to waltz away with him.

Especially when you know that if you stop and claim it’s fake, everybody will look at you, not him, and doubt you even if they know, because they do it themselves.

So you might be tempted, and might think it's no use to protest. But look at your line; if you can't see a reason for a sudden shift or change, don't be fooled by it.

And I don't mean things like some guy walked up and said hi, Duh! I mean something like a real event: a death in the family, an accident, a natural disaster. Or maybe something like this…

The only way to be sure is to follow your own heart, for yourself.

Get yourself straight, set your sights on the path ahead, and walk on. Once you're underway again, on your own path, you can take a peek at who's walking the same path, or one very nearby and parallel to yours, by honestly following their own heart.

However unlikely, that's who will be there at the end.

Good luck…

You guys are just incredible and I love all of you!
I HATE crying! I've cried more in the past two months than I ever did.
I just feel really stupid. I guess I wanted 'this' so much, that I overlooked some things that I normally don't. I never changed myself, though, except in the better sense, actually. I was more understanding, and selfless and more giving, than I have ever been. But I don't really have a 'template' to compare things, ....follow me?
I had avoided this setting, because I KNOW what it could do to me, and I was fine and dandy all along. I never let anyone know, for so many years, that I needed them/missed them/just enjoyed being around them, because I never wanted anyone to be that close.
I always thought that I would not be able to receive what effort I put in, and I actually understood that it was too much effort to request from someone, and I methodically built my life to exclude that concept. It certainly wasn't healthy, and I was never rigid, angry or extremely selfish, but I was the epitome of detachment. Nothing phased me, no one got in.
And it suited me just fine.
I don't know if I can ever believe someone's declarations/words again. That's the destructive effect of all this. Where in the past, I didn't take to 'heart' anything that most guys said, because it didn't matter. No relationship was serious enough to ever affect me.
I'm trying to move on, and I will soon.
I guess I should heed the wise words of how, allegedly, we heal:
Disbelief
Grief
Anger
Apathy

Thank you so much!
I don't have anyone else to talk with about 'me'.

Just out of curiosity- to Nuking Futs and Stabile... Why don't guys pursue women who are also like them, in the sense of narcissism, apathy, and who are avoidant ? Wouldn't that suit their needs more ? Why go through all this trouble if it doesn't meann anything ? I can't believe competitiveness rules that much in men's lives...

Thank you!
Nova

As a woman I can't answer that question. What I can tell you is that I was once like you and pushed everyone away or hide pieces of myself to ensure my mental safety. It took a very strong and diligent man to break thru all the barriers to get me to believe that I was worthy of being loved just for who I was not inspite of it. My husband has asked me to change a lot of things in order to grow and become a better wife and mother but has never once asked me to change the things that make up the core of my being. Heal for now and be gentle with yourself.

big hugs,
Cherity

p.s. Nova I'm here anytime you just need to talk about you I do hope that you know that.

There. I said it. How proud I am of myself.
All my education (lifewise or bookwise), and spirituality.... doesn't mean squat.
This has been, without a doubt, the most self destructive and depressing act I've ever perpetrated upon myself. And this is the only place in the entire world where I can say that it really really hurts.
I made a 'pinkie promise' to my "twin" on here that I wouldn't continue to sabotage myself any longer, and I did.
Sorry 'Mel'. I failed you. I'm not as strong as you! :)
I need help from y'all in helping me 'fix' me. Somehow...
If anyone knows how to help me duct tape the found miniscule pieces of my heart and soul that were boxed up and put upon my doorstep one Sunday Nova
Here is my stab at it... Start loving as openly as you can. Don't hide yourself. Smash your head into the waves. Fall in love and expect to have a broken heart. Learn to savor the fact that your heart will survive. It is only broken in your mind's eye! Let it be broken and be renewed again. Learn how insignificant heartbreak really is. You will survive!

I started this course at 35. I have been in love headlong 3 times in 2 years and broken hearted as many. It only increases my resolve. I learn to forgive and take responsibility for my feelings... The in-love feeling is mine and mine alone (and it is illusion)! I am learning to live my passion.

When Buddhist monks receive alms in Thailand they are taught to eat with neither pleasure nor disgust. With the pleasure of love comes the pain of heartbreak. They are partners. Taste Love with neither pleasure or disgust. Love is the sustenance. Pain and pleasure are the flavors.



A tremendous big e-hug to you!

Hey, crying is good. Don't sweat crying. Not crying is more ominous, in our opinion.

As a male, I certainly can answer that question. But it's an ugly answer.

When men are using the primitive strategy, there isn't any of the normal logic we've come to associate with why we pair up, or are attracted to someone.

The purpose, pure and simple, is to fertilize a female with as much status as possible, and to move on and do it again, and again, and again ad infinitum.

The definition of status in this context is a bit less straightforward than the conversational meaning of the word, but it's close enough for classical music. (Not for jazz, though.) (grin..)

Guys also choose on the basis of perceived vulnerability, but the definition of that, too, is a bit different than the ordinary meaning. Here, it's primarily related to how easily he can bring the female's primitive behaviors into play.

Unfortunately, one of the best predictors of that is how recently and how hard they've been used. There is a whole world of smarmy men that specialize in preying on women that have been recently taken advantage of. We call these guys 'secondary predators'.

As far as personality type and so on, it really isn't a primary consideration, except as it relates to vulnerability. He really doesn't care at all.


Aren't we men special? Not…

Hey, crying is good. Don't sweat crying. Not crying is more ominous, in our opinion.

As a male, I certainly can answer that question. But it's an ugly answer.

When men are using the primitive strategy, there isn't any of the normal logic we've come to associate with why we pair up, or are attracted to someone.

The purpose, pure and simple, is to fertilize a female with as much status as possible, and to move on and do it again, and again, and again ad infinitum.

The definition of status in this context is a bit less straightforward than the conversational meaning of the word, but it's close enough for classical music. (Not for jazz, though.) (grin..)

Guys also choose on the basis of perceived vulnerability, but the definition of that, too, is a bit different than the ordinary meaning. Here, it's primarily related to how easily he can bring the female's primitive behaviors into play.

Unfortunately, one of the best predictors of that is how recently and how hard they've been used. There is a whole world of smarmy men that specialize in preying on women that have been recently taken advantage of. We call these guys 'secondary predators'.

As far as personality type and so on, it really isn't a primary consideration, except as it relates to vulnerability. He really doesn't care at all.


Aren't we men special? Not…
Yep, I cry as hard as I can...damn that feels good. I think really healthy men will not follow this ("mismatcher") pattern. I personally like women who are interested in me. I think they have good taste :). I run from the first sign of disinterest (this is not good because my interpretation cicuits are often not very functional). In the end, don't you want someone who does not play the game and will like you for yourself AND liking them as well?

The games suck! I don't care if they are evolutionary...

Maybe a different thread... Stabile, what difference do you see in ADD mating patterns as opposed to linear, or normal patterns?

I am special. I am not a man. I never learned how to "be" one. I am the ADD gender... Androgyne.

Yeah, I know exactly how that feels. I spent my early years watching in amazement while male friends discovered their ability to do things that were clearly out of the question for me.

That put me in a pretty strange place; there was a lot of pressure to conform, really desperate stuff. My refusal to play the game as early as seven or eight was seen as a threat, a rejection that implied a strong criticism.

But I didn't really have a choice. To answer your question, we're certain that the difference is in the way we use our ADDer brains to model reality in a web-like structure.

That structure is of arbitrary dimension, and that allows us to 'see' things that can't be delineated when modeling things in the old fashioned way.

The primitive strategy had to adapt around human higher functions as they developed, but they're all stuck in four space, along with the older, flat way to model reality.

We're out in thirteen space soaring, and the primitive strategy doesn't mean squat out here.

But touch down to talk, or interact with normals in the normal reality we are all restricted to by language, and the ability to 'see' clearly temporarily disappears.

That's scary, but it only lasts until we take off again. So there's the connection for Nova: another way to avoid these problems is always look at it from up here. To mix a metaphor, soar before you leap.

But that is really what we've been describing all along, in a flatter four space version. And maybe the rest of that is better left to another thread.

Nova,

I am going to keep this short and simple cause I could never say it as eloquently as the others have.

I understand the pain. I once was there when my fiance broke it off. It hurts soooo bad I cant describe it in words. Well sort of like Death as though someone died that you loved . Right? Be gentle with yourself. Let the tears come they are healing.
Hope this helps. Dont worry about Mel. She wont be mad...shes not that kind of person. We all care. auntchris;)

I thought that was pretty eloquent...

I thought that was pretty eloquent...
Agreed!

Nova,

When I was little and learning to walk, at first, I fell down after taking a couple steps. I didn't know enough to blame myself for it, so I didnt, and now I have no trouble walking. Why should it be any different with anything else?

<!--StartFragment --> My heart and soul go out to you. You are only broke if you think you are. Our self worth comes from within us. I myself have had ALOT of failed relationships and it seemed as if I always blamed myself. So I spent a lot of time in therapy and medicated trying to sort everything out. Relationships are hard. and there is no such thing as Happy ever after, Walt Disney started that and it has been a farce from the start. There are alot of good forums that will help you that are just for breakups and such, I know, been there.

I wrote this a long time ago after my last Divorce and thought as you do now. I hope it will help you in your hour of need. Dont beat yourself up. Dont say things you can not take back, treat people how you want to be treated, Love and be true to thy inner spirt.

http://aboutyourbreakup.com/greatposts.html

Thank you, all !!
I still cry every night, but not as hard as I was initially.
I think the hardest part is that I can't 'forgive and forget'. I invested so much of myself, more than I've ever done (and I was married twice, mind you, and that never happened with those two men), and I just think 'What a waste'...That I actually believed in someone, and loved them that much, and that didn't mean a thing to them. Not ever..I look back, and think about everything we did, or said, and none of it mattered...
I must have been out of my mind.
I must be healing though, because while I still feel awful inside, I'm resorting back to my view that intimacy is overrated, and we don't need to be best friends in relationships, nor do we need to or have someone understand what 'we' are all about.
Anyways, a good dinner once in a while with someone is good enough.
For now, I'm 'under construction and closed till further notice'.
I'm sure there are plenty of detours for any guy to get to where he needs to go, without 'going through me'.
Peace out, and love y'all !!
Nova

How are you doing Nova...??:)

How are you doing Nova...??:)
I'm on automatic pilot, Digitl.
I wish I was a good liar, and tell you that I'm doing well, but I'm not.
I lost my best friend. Whom I love so much. Whom I talked with, and laughed with almost every day.
And I miss him so much, every day.
Even though I am worthless and useless to him....

I wish I could be angry, but I'm just extremely depressed.

I wanted to thank you and everyone else for your responses. They mean so much to me.
I just can't talk about this right now... I'm sorry...
It just hurts so much.
Nova

I just can't talk about this right now... I'm sorry...
It just hurts so much.
Nova
It's very normal to feel this way, and dont you be sorry Nova :eek: , or i will have to go down where ever you are and kick yer butt :p

Take your time, and just take good care of yourself , and know that there is people here, whenever you feel like talking..

((((((Hugs)))))

Nova, never give up. There is so much love out there.
Work through your hurt, but never stop believing that there are good and loving people who will appreciate you.
Hugs.

Nova -

Now this is my opinion, even though I'll state some of it as if it was proven fact (since I think it is).

Sounds to me like you were indeed duped, but maybe not the way you think you were. Maybe you were doing a great job of being in the relationship. Maybe you were doing a better job than you've ever done before. Maybe you were doing such a great job that they guy wasn't strong enough to keep up with you. Nobody likes to admit that they aren't as strong as another. So when they leave a relationship, they often convince themselves that it is not them, but the other who is the weak one. Also, I believe that if a person is in touch with who they are, then the only reasons they will have to leave a relationship are about themselves, not the other person. More evidence that it was him that was weak is the fact that he was able to hurt you so badly when he left. When someone is as honest and present as it sounds like you were, they are very vunlnerable. So not only could the guy not step up to be with you, he tried to knock you down on his way out too. I could go on, but you get the point. All the evidence you presented shows me that you have done a great job of being true to who you really are, and taken great risk to be real in a relationship. You did your part. You scared the crap out of they guy because he was not growing or living life as fully as you. So he ran, and since you scared him and made him see his own shortcomings, he tried to knock you down. Just like any immature teenager does when they break up.

So I hope that when it hurts less, you'll be able to see your success in this, and realize that you have more to offer than you thought.

Nova & Foggy Phil~

Kudos to both of you:) Nova..been there done that..keep your chin up......I know you can keep your wits about you..Your a classy lady..I respect you...:)

Foggy Phil~

You gave me inspiration beyond belief!! Your theory of Nova having her life so together and living life to the fullest.......absolutely scared him away....Oh my God..that's my story..Thank You for giving me one more reason to believe in ME..I am an OK person...it's me that was living life to the fullest..he was just jealous he couldn't reach the sky that high.....THANK YOU...:) so he ran.....what an awesome twist to look at a different perspective of the WHOLE picture....

Nova -

Now this is my opinion, even though I'll state some of it as if it was proven fact (since I think it is).

Sounds to me like you were indeed duped, but maybe not the way you think you were. Maybe you were doing a great job of being in the relationship. Maybe you were doing a better job than you've ever done before. Maybe you were doing such a great job that they guy wasn't strong enough to keep up with you. Nobody likes to admit that they aren't as strong as another. So when they leave a relationship, they often convince themselves that it is not them, but the other who is the weak one. Also, I believe that if a person is in touch with who they are, then the only reasons they will have to leave a relationship are about themselves, not the other person. More evidence that it was him that was weak is the fact that he was able to hurt you so badly when he left. When someone is as honest and present as it sounds like you were, they are very vunlnerable. So not only could the guy not step up to be with you, he tried to knock you down on his way out too. I could go on, but you get the point. All the evidence you presented shows me that you have done a great job of being true to who you really are, and taken great risk to be real in a relationship. You did your part. You scared the crap out of they guy because he was not growing or living life as fully as you. So he ran, and since you scared him and made him see his own shortcomings, he tried to knock you down. Just like any immature teenager does when they break up.

So I hope that when it hurts less, you'll be able to see your success in this, and realize that you have more to offer than you thought.
Quoted in it's entirety because, Foggy Phil, this is so good..., this is so brilliant... I am speechless and feel this needs no comment in any case.

Nova, what he said!!!:D

I too found foggyphil's post incredible! What a wonderfully optimistic view.

Dont give up on love Nova. It is such a beautiful, inspirational, pure way to live! Time will heal your wounds......the slight scars left from those wounds will fade. Not every man out there is insecure and ignorant. He is the one that truly lost, not you. Your ability to give love selflessly is one of the greatest gifts of all!


My heart aches for you Nova.........and I'd like to add one more thing.........I would really like to punch the guy in the nose!

:)

Well, here's how "I'm" evolving.. I am fluctuating between feeling like a complete loser, and shutting down (I always phrase this as being detached, but it's not in the same context as the 'detached love' post on this board. It means that I'm not allowing anyone to get close again.) I have been a complete loser, because I have allowed 'him' to communicate and see me yet a few more times since, which has left me feeling worse, but moving towards 'hostile'. I understand his reasoning for doing what he needs to do, to help resolve (if ever) his issues, but it doesn't resolve mine. His issues alone, I can deal with. I can't deal with his method of resolution to them, because they always minimize me and my needs, and I end semi-psychotic, when I'm left alone to dwell on them, which is not how I want to feel. We both appreciate our 'true colors', believe me, but the difference is that mine are not 'primary' for him, right now, in the way I need them to be.
But again, I'm back to just isolating myself once and foreall, from him, and anyone else that's going to trigger my need for protecting myself from 'what might, could, slim chance' happen.
The reason for that is because I can't seem to move away from equating 'understanding, love, and compassion' with 'punishment', right now. I feel like I was systematically beaten down to nothing, i.e. punished, for being that way with someone. And yes, I've never let anyone treat me or confuse me like that before, so I'm really ****ed off with myself, and depressed that my efforts weren't recognized.
But how the heck is anyone to say that ouloud to anyone. To point it out, time and again, doesn't mean someone is going to acknowledge what we say, let alone sincerely stop hurting us, if some other motive is more of a priority to them.
I realize that not all people are shaped equally, and I'm not seeking some 'wrath' upon the male population, lol! I'm just trying once again, to be 'me' again, in all it's difficulties, yet in all it's good.
I'm just so confused why some people would choose to be more comfortable with a chaotic 'setting', rather than be in a more harmonious life. And I'm not buying the 'familiarity' concept, either. Some 'woobies' should be thrown out once and foreall.
Thanks, y'all! I mean it. I can't be any more destructive to myself, I know that.
Nova

Nova,

I read your orginal post one month ago whilst slogging through a similar emotional swamp - and it stopped me dead in my tracks.

Like you, I have kept myself away from relationships because, well, because I seem to do so well without having one. A chance meeting, an intriguing proposition, the most incredible connection (she understood, she liked me anyway, she said I intrigued and excited her) and chemistry (wow, like sodium and water), fireworks, my willful and complete abandonement of all of my rules... and then... complete and utter devastation.

I'll get around to posting the whole sordid tale (including the "anonymous" phone calls from her goon and the "fun" with the police) one of these days if anybody wants to read it.

I somehow managed to heal enough to start bathing and eating again... but not much more than that. And three weeks ago a close female friend commented that I appeared to be getting back to normal (sic). During the subsequent conversation I began to realize that, yes, I had been screwed over, but it was as much my fault as it was hers. I thought that for the very first time in my life I had done everything right, that what had nearly destroyed me had been my lover's seeming inability to stick to the "honest and open" thing we had so carefully defined at the begining. But I was only half right.

I was too much in love, too much in the moment - I STOPPED WRITING IN MY JOURNAL and lost track of all those little things I should have seen. If I don't write stuff down, I lose it fast - well, you know - and I start missing stuff.

Finding oneself on the receiving end of emotional abuse (because in the final analysis, that was what was really happening) at the hands of someone who started the fatal conversation with the words "I care too deeply for you to ever want to hurt you, BUT...." is a painful and sobering experience.

Since that realization, things have started falling back into place and I am beginning to feel like I control my life again, such as it is. I still have bad days, but now I understand what is happening - and I'm writing again, so I know I'll be OK.

It will be a long time, indeed a very long time, before I ever allow my heart to get out there again -- right now there's still a hole in it the size of Nebraska -- and I have already accepted that it may never happen again. I'm 55. I learned that having boundaries means that you, especially you, respect those boundaries - and you bend them for nobody, regardless of the chemistry or the connection. You are who you are first. You're the one you always sleep with; nothing sucks more than waking up crying.

Now if I could just get the snoring under control <grin>.


Lots of hugs,

Dawg

Nova,

It's my humble opinion that people initially fall in love for themselves - not their partner. Being someone that we resonate with brings us joy. Doing things for them brings us fulfillment. Spending time together makes us feel connected physically and emotionally. It's wonderful and exhilarting thing to be in Love's Springtime.

Although that initial fire that most people feel eventually burns low, the relationship they have forged with that flame serves to carry them into the future. Allowing them to slowly build lives that are completely intertwined. Eventually they morph into perfectly fitting puzzle pieces - you know the kind, the old folks that make each other laugh into their old age. Those people that can complete each others thoughts - and still have the presence of mind to keep their mouths shut and allow the other person to finish what they are saying.

But we are different.

Because of our nature it's almost impossible for us to dial ourselves back when we are being carried away by a flood of emotion - particulary love. If we love fully as we can, then more often than not the person that we are with will react in pretty consistent ways.

Sometimes they will recoil - not out of disgust - but because they can't match the pace of emotion that we keep. Please don't misconstrue that as meaning we are capable of feeling more deeply than another (because that's not the case). The issue is timing. What is happening is we feel more strongly about them much sooner than they are capable of reciprocating.

So while they are busily trying to cement their feelings so they can begin to fashion and emotional foundation. We have intuited that they are going to be around forever and have already built a house.

Sometimes, they'll sign on for the ride and then not understand why we aren't in tune with them and/or building a life together. It's a bit maddening because the fact we're present means (at least to us) that we already have a life together and it doesn't need validation.

But take it from their side. They are attracted to us because we shine in ways that they don't... but living with that radiance is a horrible test for some normals.

If they are insecure they will seek out ways of making themselves secure (usually undermining the relationship).

If they are arrogant then they will seek out ways of convincing themselves it was *their* choice not a mutual decision to be together.

If they are angry they'll just try to make sure that they always have something in store that they think will hurt us. If they are self centered it could be all of the above...

Or maybe they'll just bolt...

So what do we do? If we follow our emotions then we will blow our potential mates' fuses. If we hold off, we run the risk of being with someone that may NEVER be able to catch up to us emotionally - which could force us to kill the relationship years after it begins.

Ultimately, finding the right results boils down to taking lots of samples and comparing them to each other. And that means extending ourselves again and again. It's human nature to do so... Don't deny yourself the chance to find joy simply because the results to date haven't made you happy or hurt you. It's supposed hurt - because it's supposed to teach us something along the way. The longer you deny yourself these trials - as painful as they might be - the longer it will take you to learn the lessons you'll need to find joy...

I know that my candor at times is not all that welcome, but I hope that my experience provides you with some insight... and maybe give you a chance to dodge many bullets that I have been unable to avoid.

You are Nova. Go Radiate! :)

Much affection,
Motorbrain

(They) slowly build lives that are completely intertwined. Eventually they morph into perfectly fitting puzzle pieces…

But we are different…
Sorry, but this is just completely backwards. Poetic as this post may be, there's a confusion about why and how we are able to become intertwined, and why relationships seem to fail us, or we fail them.

It's our difference that allows the complex intertwining, which is a new thing to the species. (Search on SB_UK's posts about the intimately converged web for some elegantly stated details.)

The thing that repeatedly sabotages our relationships is our lack of understanding about our basic nature, and it's nothing like what Motorbrain suggests.

We all have two different mating strategies built in, and sorting that out is job one. It's going to seem impossibly difficult, but it's just as difficult a thing to ignore. We're all caught in the throes of trying to understand this issue, if for no other reason than the kind of experience that this thread reflects.

And I do mean all of us, the entire culture. The one positive side to it all is that seeing the two different strategies in yourself is the path to understanding and the benevolent view of yourself (and others) that brings.

If seeing the two strategies seems difficult, it is; as a species, we have selected mechanisms designed to keep us blind to the fact of their existence. But this countering fact, that I can state this here in ordinary words, shows that blind selection is a poor foil for our true differences, and the abilities they impart.

Look for the contradictions in your self and others, and the two strategies will pop into relief. Be prepared to make choices, and be buffeted by them, and to see that you have already made many choices blindly that served the primitive strategy, and perhaps the species, but certainly not your own interests.

And when you do, just pat yourself on the head. We’ve all screwed this up, every one of us; there is no generation yet that has been free of the tyranny of the primitive strategy. If we get this right, our kids might be it.

And if we don't give them this gift, regardless of how difficult the effort, they will be doomed to repeating these same sad stories once again in their own lives.

Is the prospect of failure isn't something any of us can accept?


Although that initial fire that most people feel eventually burns low…
If you ever needed a reason to try, this is it. Conquer the primitive strategy, and this is no longer true (if it ever was). The fires, once ignited, burn ever hotter, and they can take you to heights unimagined.

Is the prospect of failure isn't something any of us can accept?
Curse word processors and the horse they rode in on…

That should have been:

"Is the prospect of failure something any of us can accept?"

Jeeze.

Nova,

I feel very sad right now....after having read your post. The best of us, the ones who feel the deepest and who give the most, are not appreciated by alot of people. It seems that alot of times society rewards those of us who have the least inside. Anyway, I hope that you don't shut yourself off. I do it too. I go in my room and "burrow" and won't come out. It is my safe haven. But I have found someone who is very special in my life.... someone who is able to give as much as I do. And I wouldn't want you to be burrowing when someone who could be a REAL friend to you comes along. It's like finding a needle in a haystack, but when you do find them, they are priceless.

Well, it's difficult for me to discontinue my feelings for this person. I really am in love with him, and everwhere I look, reminds me of something we did or talked about.
It's not enough though. Love isn't enough, nor is chemistry, nor level of understanding.
I have been home more weekends than I care to recall...I sometimes make plans, only to cancel, so I won't ruin someone else's night by being 'out there in my thoughts'.
It's all bs.. the whole concept of love. I'm figuring out that I'm going to end up without any contact, to anyone, if I continue this messed up thinking.
I just want to take it all back. If I could.
I just can't stop being sad, and that's the part that is making me nuts.
I haven't been sad in decades. Angry, aloof, detached, selfish, controlling...yes.
But never sad.
Nova

I've found that relationships actually are a mirror of ourselves. We fall in love with those who reflect our capabilities, and help us for a duration, have an image that is amazing.
When that image is shattered, or gone, involuntarily, I think we keep trying to find it, over and over...
Blah...
I'm never doing this again. Ever.
It is the worst feeling ever.
I'm just going to delve into being so damn proficient in my academic cirriculum, it's going to be sickening.
Nova

It's not going to happen, right now, sweetie. Burrowed, I have. And so deep, someone will need one of those earth diggers to find me.
The entire thing is over rated, as far as I'm concerned. I think it would behooving for me to be a queen of the B's, for a while, and try that on for size. I'm sick of feeling like this, and I have no ability to trust, anymore. Plus, the whole 'hope' factor has completely gone right down the darn drain. In reality, if I just resort back to my 'don't give a hoot' attitude about anyone I date, no matter what they are dealing with, I'm just much better off.
I can't possibly keep feeling this bad, for this long. I feel like the joke of the Universe.
By the way, I do know how to identify friends, and I usually keep those in a separate category from guys I have dated. So all this hostility would never be directed to any of them.
I can't believe I allowed all of this to happen.
I just want the last year back, without any of this cr*P running amuck throughout my memories.
This is why people move to Key West and sell T-Shirts for a living.
Because of doing something they will never be able to forgive themselves for, and not being able to forget the person who caused them to do it.
Sorry for the rant... guys... you are so wonderful, and I keep telling y'all that I have no one else to talk with.
As far as the 'needle in the haystack' concept, I'm going to set the da*n haystack on fire to ensure I won't even look for that darn needle.
Nova

This is why people move to Key West and sell T-Shirts for a living.

I dont see anything wrong with that.. I could make t-shirt with quotes on them...

Likse fat people are harder to kidnap :rolleyes: :p lol
By the ocean...sigh...

I dont see nutting wrong with that moi!!!

As for trust...it is not the others trust you should work on...but you own trust of yourself :D

I'm finding myself moving into the next level of reaction now, which entails more anger, then grief. I believe anger in contextual terms, is seemingly more productive, towards the goal of healing myself.



Part of this 'wrath' I'm feeling includes finding the person who created the stupid quote of: 'It's better to have loved and lost, than to have never loved at all' constraining them, and gleefully dumping them ontop of a fire-ant mound.



I've managed to comprehend the fine art of narcissism to the 'nth' degree, and in doing so, I've come across this nifty little format used by them, in relationships:



Ludus: characterized by game playing, an aversion to partner dependence, attention to extradyadic others, and deception.



If I were to let y'all in on the actual extent of deception that this P.O.S. (piece of----) did to me, and how over-riding my defensive borderline traits, distorted my perception on 'ideal relationships' and 'empathy/positive feedback' in intimate relationships (I'll never do that again) and enabled him to repeatedly take advantage of me, and how often I find myself still missing him..-I'd have to throw myself ontop of that fire-ant mound, also.



Why Do Individuals Date Narcissists?
excerpt from a pdf on : A Story of Narcisstic Game Playing

Research on narcissism and romantic relationships raises several questions. One question that readily springs to mind involves how narcissists get potential dating partners to become attracted to them.

If narcissists are, by their own accounts, game playing and selfish, why would anyone want to become involved with them?


There are several possible answers to this question. Narcissists may be confident, exciting, or charming. (And '3D'/animated, in my opinion)


Narcissists may also select or target certain individuals to date.
Individuals with low self esteem, (how ironic, since they also have low self esteem) for example, may be easy prey for narcissists.

Narcissists may date other narcissists. (and/or those with other attachment disorders, in my opinion).
They have an aversion to 'nonnarcissits', or those they view as 'too nice', or 'too accomodating'.


This statement is consistent with the primary findings that narcissists are game playing in their relationships.


It may be that narcissists self, which is present during early relationship interactions, may be overlooked, as it takes some time for their partners to see past the presentation.

Their likability may fade over time as their grandiosity becomes apparent or fails to diminish.

(Paulhus, 1998)(cf. Tice, Butler, Muraven, & Stillwell, 1995).

I think that a lot of us have had similar experiences. It is hard to realize that someone you cared for is not the person you thought they were. You don't need fixing. You are not broken. You are hurt. and you need time to heal.

Take care of yourself Nova
Glen


I don't even know how to begin to state this, as I consider myself to be strong, 'whatever wise'. ..
Flat out.. I have no idea how to fix my self. My emotions, trust, self worth, and other factors I've always deemed to be solid.
I've made the ridiculous assumption (for only the second time in my entire life, so don't be too harsh in your replies :* ) to value intimacy and love as being a priority in my life, only to have it profoundly, and I mean PROFOUNDLY backfire upon me.
I managed to go 29 years total without ever needing anyone for love, support, feedback, identity etc. From age 9 until 18 and from age 20 until 40.

And last summer, I let someone, whom I believed to be 'my best friend and lover', who 'loved and cared' for me, whom I thought the world of, and talked with, shared with, and 'opened up to' all my deepest, most sacred thoughts, and tribulations, basically dupe and use me.
Someone who let me believe it was wonderfully exhilarating to be myself, in every way. Who encouraged me and let me believe in him, and made me think he believed in me until the last possible moment.
Only to help him regain his self esteem, identity, and needs, only in the end to decide that I'm worthless, and discard me
.
There. I said it. How proud I am of myself.
All my education (lifewise or bookwise), and spirituality.... doesn't mean squat.
This has been, without a doubt, the most self destructive and depressing act I've ever perpetrated upon myself. And this is the only place in the entire world where I can say that it really really hurts.
I made a 'pinkie promise' to my "twin" on here that I wouldn't continue to sabotage myself any longer, and I did.
Sorry 'Mel'. I failed you. I'm not as strong as you! :)
I need help from y'all in helping me 'fix' me. Somehow...
If anyone knows how to help me duct tape the found miniscule pieces of my heart and soul that were boxed up and put upon my doorstep one Sunday afternoon, (I still can't find all of them, and I'm sure they're still in his apartment somewhere) and can help me make them, and myself, not look like a 'Frankenstein' of sorts, I would appreciate it.
I'm so sorry I ever let someone in, and hope to become more proficient in being yet more invisible and detached because of it.
Thank you,
Nova

(((((((hugs)))))))

I'm sorry Nova. I wish I had something wise and perfect to say but I don't. I want you to be well, and you're appreciated here.

You are not broken.
Take care of yourself Nova
Glen

Oh... but I am, Glen.
In the same way that the 'horse whisperer' gently lures a free spirited, and breathtaking creature....with the end result being one and the same....
To those who are preoccupied, the creature is still magnificent...and capable of acting upon unprecedented feats that are magickal to witness...
But to the wonderous and trusting creature, who has had their spirit broken, the result is magnified, tenfold, and forever crippling...unbenownst to the simple naked eye...

Sometimes when I hurt, I wax poetic. You might give poetry a shot. I write my best stuff when i'm in screaming agony. :eek:


Glen



You are not broken.
Take care of yourself Nova
Glen

Oh... but I am, Glen.
In the same way that the 'horse whisperer' gently lures a free spirited, and breathtaking creature....with the end result being one and the same....
To those who are preoccupied, the creature is still magnificent...and capable of acting upon unprecedented feats that are magickal to witness...
But to the wonderous and trusting creature, who has had their spirit broken, the result is magnified, tenfold, and forever crippling...unbenownst to the simple naked eye...

I'm actually healing, now. I told someone that the phrase 'That which does not kill us, makes us stronger' is true, in some sense, but it actually does kill part of us, in order for another part to take over.
Some other 'part' has taken over the 'wallowing and pathetic' part of me, and it's not vindictive, resentful, or any hostile typology.
It's actually incredibly insightive, to things that are personal, to me, and my situation.
So, I'm becoming me, once again, but the 'me' that is meant to be, for as long as it needs to 'be', which is great !!
I know this sounds vague, but I really have learned, and have been shaped, in a good way.
Be well,
Nova

Im so glad to hear the good news. I knew you would come through!

Me :D

Outta site, outta mind.
I'd appreciate if this post was closed, actually, if the moderators don't mind.
I don't mind someone reading it, but I just want it 'gone', so I can become 'me', once more :)
I would really appreciate it.
Nova

It is sad to see it go since so many of our members have been there and there is so much wonderful advice and support in this thread but I do understand were you are coming from Nova and I will do my best to see that your last post requesting we close this thread be brought to the attention of the correct moderator immediatly.

Love,
Cherity