View Full Version : Working Memory Deficiency


FellowADDer
09-23-13, 10:40 AM
How does one tell if a co-existing condition is co-existing, or the cause of ADHD? In particular, I'm wondering if a severe working memory problem might lead to the same distractibility and mimic ADHD, without actually being ADHD.

Or is it possible that some cases of ADHD is caused by things like ADHD, and it's not really one brain mechanism at the root? This seems an important, because it may lead to different solutions and strategies, even if the end symptoms are all the same.

Would appreciate any thoughts along these lines from those of you that are more familiar with this that I am. Thanks in advance...

(Please excuse if this is posted in the wrong sub-forum area.)

TygerSan
09-23-13, 11:16 AM
You ask a really good question. I have a fairly poor working memory as well. I always joke that I have very low RAM.

Although problems with working memory are not necessary for the diagnosis of ADHD, I think that you'll find relatively few people with an ADHD diagnosis who don't have trouble with some form of working memory. In fact some researchers do think that this is a primary deficit in ADHD.

Another thing is that the medications that help ADHD do generally improve working memory as well (the research tends to support this conclusion).

daveddd
09-23-13, 12:02 PM
I'm never in the moment

So how can I remember it

FellowADDer
09-23-13, 12:53 PM
Another thing is that the medications that help ADHD do generally improve working memory as well (the research tends to support this conclusion).

I have seen exercises and phone apps, for example, that are supposed to help with working memory. I felt like they were just torturing me, without benefit. But I didn't give them a long term effort, so it's hard to tell if they might have helped.

Given that I have that feeling like working memory is a root of my issues, I'm wondering what else is done for people with working memory deficiencies - outside the ADHD literature, is there any good source of info that someone can point me to? I'm interested in both life aids (probably much like the GTD/Agile Results/Minimalism sorts of materials I find so helpful), but also just life coaching stuff that can provide tips.

My naive theory is that when I hyperfocus, it's largely about holding more necessary information in working memory. In fact, it's like the extra effort to focus my mind on working memory tasks seems to be what makes everything else fall apart around me.

Distractions are a big deal because they bump my mind and I drop all the mental juggling balls that were in the air (in my working memory). Further, it feels like I forget other things like taking the laundry out of the washer, because I'm so busy keeping some other topic in my working memory, and I don't have spare "cycles" for things like remembering the laundry or the passing of time.

That also seems to be why I can often still remember time/laundry if the task I'm doing is very familiar. It also seems to explain why it's so hard to switch tasks - I have to work so hard to re-assemble my mental juggling of working items.

In fact, it seems to also explain why one can get in the zone in a hectic situation and handle it well - an ER physician is generally in familiar territory even if it gets crazy and has to multitask. He/she still is more in reaction mode, not trying to juggle lots of mental balls in working memory.

I know that's probably a very simple minded approach, but I can't help but feel that there's something to it - at least in my case.

Anyway, if anyone can point me to some good information about working memory symptoms, aids, coaching helps, books, even research literature, I'd be grateful.

Thanks!

TygerSan
09-23-13, 01:17 PM
Sadly, I feel the same way about the brain training exercises. I can't do them, and they make me feel anxious and frustrated.

For some people the meds really help. For me, it seemed to help with certain things (like computer programming) but made other things worse (like remembering my own train of thought in a non linear conversation).

FellowADDer
09-23-13, 01:58 PM
I've got medical reasons to first try alternatives to the stimulants, but eventually I may end up giving it a try. Am hoping that other lifestyle changes and techniques will do the job.

And if I have to just deal with it, well, I've done that for 50 years already so it's not like it's impossible. To be honest, the hardest part is not the task and life challenges, it's the side effects due to inability of people to understand me and therefore to judge my motives and effort.

dvdnvwls
09-23-13, 02:04 PM
How does one tell if a co-existing condition is co-existing, or the cause of ADHD? In particular, I'm wondering if a severe working memory problem might lead to the same distractibility and mimic ADHD, without actually being ADHD.

Or is it possible that some cases of ADHD is caused by things like ADHD, and it's not really one brain mechanism at the root? This seems an important, because it may lead to different solutions and strategies, even if the end symptoms are all the same.

Would appreciate any thoughts along these lines from those of you that are more familiar with this that I am. Thanks in advance...

(Please excuse if this is posted in the wrong sub-forum area.)
I think that's a great question. There can be no provable answer to this question yet, because the true source of ADHD has not been found. In fact, it isn't yet known whether ADHD has a single source or whether it's a number of things happening at the same time. Until the source of ADHD is found, we're more or less forced to take all symptoms at "face value" and try to figure out what to do with each of them.

The only way (today) of partly figuring out an answer to your question would be statistical - if all or a large majority of ADHDers have Symptom X, then Symptom X is more likely to be an integral part of ADHD. But that's not a foolproof method by any means - for example, probably a great majority of us have problems with procrastination, but I'm convinced that it is an accidental (but predictable) result of other "more basic" (if I can even say that without direct evidence) symptoms.

FellowADDer
09-23-13, 04:34 PM
All this input is great, and I'd love to get more because it helps with perspective.

But still am wondering...

Can anyone recommend good sources of information on working memory problems and how to live with them?

namazu
09-23-13, 04:59 PM
Can anyone recommend good sources of information on working memory problems and how to live with them?

Russell Barkley's books -- a new one called Executive Functions: What They Are, How They Work, and How They Evolved (http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/773666263), and another one called Taking Charge of Adult ADHD (http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/471811806) -- might be useful.

The Executive Functions book is more academic.

The Taking Charge book is geared towards adults with ADHD, in kind of a workbook format. You can just ignore the parts that don't apply to you and use the sections on memory.

There's another book, intended more for parents of adolescents, called Late, Lost, and Unprepared (http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/757321914) by Joyce Cooper-Kahn and Laurie C. Dietzel that deals with general executive functioning issues, of which many are related to working memory. I've only flipped through this briefly, but it seems potentially useful. I figure that those of us who still haven't picked up some of these skills as adults might benefit from guidance geared towards middle-schoolers! You may be able to adapt some of the suggestions from this book.

I also really like the LearnNet site (http://www.projectlearnet.org/tutorials.html). It's intended for people working with kids/teens who've had traumatic brain injuries. But there's a lot of overlap between the effects of TBIs in many cases and ADHD, including difficulty with memory and organization. The site has "tutorials" that have some great explanations of the difficulties and strategies for managing them that I've found interesting/potentially useful as an adult with ADHD.

Finally, what strategies have you tried? Assuming medication isn't something you want to try or you don't have access to or it doesn't work for you, then you will probably want to focus on circumventing the weak working memory by externalizing whatever you can.

Basically the idea is to reduce the load on your memory by letting a device or routine or reminder hold onto that information so you don't have to.

This can involve technology (timers, alarms, notes-to-self, etc.) or low-tech strategies like writing things down, or designating places for things, structuring your day or tasks to remove the working memory load (e.g. always doing laundry on the same day, and keeping the items you need right by the washing machine, and making a checklist of the steps involved).

Oh, one more book that might be of use -- ADD-Friendly Ways to Organize Your Life (http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/48144440). As with the other ADHD-centric books, take the suggestions related to dealing with working memory deficits and ignore the stuff that doesn't apply to you.

FellowADDer
09-23-13, 05:34 PM
you will probably want to focus on circumventing the weak working memory by externalizing whatever you can.

This can involve technology (timers, alarms, notes-to-self, etc.) or low-tech strategies like writing things down, or designating places for things, structuring your day or tasks to remove the working memory load (e.g. always doing laundry on the same day, and keeping the items you need right by the washing machine, and making a checklist of the steps involved).

That is so very right on target! For over 20 years, I've increased my dependency on externalization to keep up. From Franklin planners to Palm pilots to smart phones and tablets and computers, I would not have survived without this skill set. I'm always hungry for more and soak up all the info I can find related to Getting Things Done and Agile Results and Minimalistic living.

My executive functioning is pretty good. Baxter seems to focus on that topic when he talks about ADHD, so it misses the mark with me. It's the working memory that I need to work around. I have read so much of the ADHD material, but it only goes so far. ADD coaches are expensive. Found a CBT counselor who helped, but mostly just because she encouraged me, respected my abilities, and helped me talk things through - without assuming my strengths and weaknesses were just like everyone else. But ultimately, she and I both knew that it was not getting to the real help I wanted, and I haven't found anyone else yet. What type of counselor/psychiatrist helps most with working memory issues anyway?

The books like ADHD-friendly...Organizing are great, and somewhat helpful. But I pretty much know all that after so many years of self-coaching. I'm learning a lot more now that I'm aware of the ADD issues - before I kept trying to force myself as a square peg into a standard round hole. Now I have the freedom to just do what helps me, even if it's not "normal".

I really want to look beyond the ADHD discussion and find materials tied to working memory issues as that seems to be the hot spot for me. I'll always have all the ADHD type symptoms and was diagnosed with it, but there's got to be more help and information out there specifically tied to working memory problems. Maybe it's just a matter of devoting some time to the hunt. Hopefully, "working memory" is the right starting phrase to search out.

someothertime
09-23-13, 05:38 PM
With ADD I would point toward variance of symptoms. I have poor working memory ( most if not all of us do )... Yet, there are times when this fluctuates like if i'm really interested... So this would help to isolate whether it's non-add.

As for the chicken and egg factor ( one system being the root and the other symptoms being effects), as above, great question... Perhaps a bit of both?

I've stated in some previous threads...

I think a lack of emotional regulation in young childhood seems to re-inforce and encourage shorter, self-initiated, instantly gratifying thoughts or activities.... ( negative or positive )... Now whether this is biological or environmental is open to interpretation... Me thinks a bit of both...

EDIT: "I have seen exercises and phone apps" - Yes these do work, and it would have been what I would suggest. Card and board games with this factor also come to mind.

MX2012
09-23-13, 05:44 PM
All this input is great, and I'd love to get more because it helps with perspective.

But still am wondering...

Can anyone recommend good sources of information on working memory problems and how to live with them?

FellowADDEr:

Welcome. Do you feel that a diagnosis would help you?

namazu
09-23-13, 05:57 PM
What type of counselor/psychiatrist helps most with working memory issues anyway?
I would think you'd want to look into cognitive rehabilitation specialists or LD specialists with expertise in this area (and I have no idea how you'd find them), rather than psychiatrists.

Many of those with training in memory issues are more likely to have experience with, and routinely deal with, mild cognitive impairment or dementia, or helping people following brain injuries. Not so many focus on people for whom developmental memory issues are a primary deficit, as far as I know (which is a shame!).

It sounds like you're already doing a lot of what "the experts" would suggest, and you've tried various "efficiency" and "task-management" systems.

As for executive functioning vs. working memory, you'll find zillions of semi-overlapping, semi-contradictory classifications, but a lot of people consider working memory to be a component of, or a prerequisite for, executive function.

Some of the "movement" in recent years on this subject has been in the area of working memory training programs. Although several studies have found benefits to these programs, the study populations have typically been small and highly-selected, there isn't always a useful control group, and very often groups involved in marketing software products are the ones conducting the research. There are still questions about whether this type of software-based training actually generalizes to functioning in real life.

I guess it would help to know the following:

a) what specific memory-laden areas/tasks you feel you need the most help with (day-to-day chores? abstract thinking? home? work? other?), and how you might define/measure improvement in these areas, and

b) whether you're looking primarily for new ways to work around your abysmal working memory, or whether you're actually hoping to improve your working memory itself, or both.


EDIT: Oh, and you might also want to check out "mindfulness"/"mindfulness meditation", which also has some research support behind it.

FellowADDer
09-23-13, 07:24 PM
FellowADDEr:

Welcome. Do you feel that a diagnosis would help you?

I did get an ADHD diagnosis (inattentive) and neuro-psych testing shows the working memory impairment. That category was a stark contrast as I did well on most other categories of testing. Other memory issues also surfaced to a degree, but I can't remember without referencing the results. (Appropriate, I suppose!)

My challenge is what to learn about/seek help with next. It's not so easy to know how to address this.

I am also somewhat accomplished academically with a PhD, and never had too much trouble with that side of learning (even though I'm sure this issue was still limiting). Maybe this was the wrong category? But for some reason I think of it as a learning disability.

FellowADDer
09-23-13, 07:33 PM
With ADD I would point toward variance of symptoms. I have poor working memory ( most if not all of us do )... Yet, there are times when this fluctuates like if i'm really interested... So this would help to isolate whether it's non-add.
Great observation - I have the traditional ADD ability to perform and focus on things that I care about. It's dramatic - and frustrating to others at times with topics I can't do. I'd go farther than what I see in ADD books - I also have trouble getting myself to do things that are hard when I'm told how to do it and when to do it, and especially if I'm really tired. Have come to believe that there's an ADD element there, but it's really hard to distinguish from laziness, and so frustration and guilt accompanies the symptom. All the more when those close to me pile on.

EDIT: "I have seen exercises and phone apps" - Yes these do work, and it would have been what I would suggest. Card and board games with this factor also come to mind.
I may have to take another look, or at least mention it if I ever find another counselor worth trying again. It is deeply painful to me, though. Don't know if it's because I don't feel like I can improve, or because it makes me face my weaknesses and false expectations of my own capabilities, or maybe there's a lot of emotional pain built up because of my struggles with that kind of thing. I don't really have any idea. I just know it's about as comfortable for me as a root canal, and I think I'd have to really believe it will help me to justify the discomfort.

FellowADDer
09-23-13, 08:09 PM
I would think you'd want to look into cognitive rehabilitation specialists or LD specialists with expertise in this area (and I have no idea how you'd find them), rather than psychiatrists.
That's the kind of thing I'd like to know more about. I'm hesitant to go to an LD specialist because I'm strong in learning and academics, so I don't know that they'd know what to do with me.

Rehab is a great idea. I saw a movie called "Memento", and darned if I didn't feel like that guy. I'm nothing like that degree, but the sense of needing to externally record everything touched my heart. Yet people are constantly amazed at how well I can remember the content of meetings, for example. I'm so full of contradiction. Rehab folks are probably better at teaching life skills. Unfortunately, they are probably more focused on survival skills, not higher performance for someone that looks like they are doing well, but just having issues.

It sounds like you're already doing a lot of what "the experts" would suggest, and you've tried various "efficiency" and "task-management" systems.

To the n-th degree. It's my life line!!!!

As for executive functioning vs. working memory, you'll find zillions of semi-overlapping, semi-contradictory classifications, but a lot of people consider working memory to be a component of, or a prerequisite for, executive function.

Yes, thanks. After my last posts, and seeing that response mentioning executive function, I did some reading and noticed that.

Also saw this amazing statistic (attributed by the author to Shanahan et al., 2006), that is in line with comments here... Working Memory and Capacity issues are commonly associated with ADHD with a correlation of 0.7 between the two disorders.

The other thing that confuses me after testing low on working memory is the difference between working memory and short term memory. The neuropsych testing indicated a working memory problem, but based on the descriptions it seems more like I might have a short term memory problem for two reasons...
1) I don't have any trouble with learning, reading or math or generally processing the stuff once I'm holding it "in my head".
2) I do have problem remembering things like a phone number, poem, or quotation, or words to songs. So much so, that people think I'm not trying because it's so easy for everyone to do. In fact, I'll forget the code to my house's front door keyless lock at times even though I use it every single day.

Some of the "movement" in recent years on this subject has been in the area of working memory training programs. Although several studies have found benefits to these programs, the study populations have typically been small and highly-selected, there isn't always a useful control group, and very often groups involved in marketing software products are the ones conducting the research. There are still questions about whether this type of software-based training actually generalizes to functioning in real life.

Like I had mentioned, the learning exercises are so distasteful to me, that I'd really have to be convinced of the benefits. My feeling is that the exercises are like "studying to the test" - I'm not convinced that the actual life skills I need are helped by getting better at the working memory test activities.

I guess it would help to know the following:

a) what specific memory-laden areas/tasks you feel you need the most help with (day-to-day chores? abstract thinking? home? work? other?), and how you might define/measure improvement in these areas, and

b) whether you're looking primarily for new ways to work around your abysmal working memory, or whether you're actually hoping to improve your working memory itself, or both.

One of the troubles I have is self-observation and boiling down all the issues into a theme, so this is a tough question for me. But, I feel I can conquer almost anything if I understand it well enough - I'm pretty creative and can find helps and aids when necessary.

But I don't care out working memory as such. I want to be able to remember the laundry needs to go to the dryer, or that my wife asked me to take out the trash. I want to be able to count and not lose track. I want to be able to make a note or answer a call and be able to go back to what I was working on. I want to be able to tell you at the end of the day what I did. I want to be able to hold three points in my head and not forget them as soon as I begin to talk about the first one. I don't want to be overwhelmed and stressed when someone starts to give me directions or describes the layout of a house. I want to be able to hold a few facts in my head or a phone number without heroic effort required. I want to remember what to put in my pockets when I leave for work in the morning (it's the same every day, but I have to create a process and structure or I forget). Right now I have to use external aids and helps to do any of that.

EDIT: Oh, and you might also want to check out "mindfulness"/"mindfulness meditation", which also has some research support behind it.
That's something I've been spending time learning about recently. I think it's going to be a great tool for me. Frequently people that do minimalistic living also are not talking about mindfulness, and it sounds very promising even if it will be a difficult thing for me to learn and practice. It's related to being present in each moment and paying attention and single-tasking.

The other related concept that sounds very promising is the idea of creating buffer and margin in your life. Time, energy, etc. I guess all this stuff is related because you have to be good at setting priorities and managing your time and energy to be able to do that. Which leads me to one more important topic here - managing expectations of others and not overcommitting. That's a skill set to learn, that also requires knowing yourself and your own priorities and limits.

All those things, plus GTD, Agile Results, etc are the only reason I don't self-destruct or just withdraw from life challenges completely. Computers and the web, with all kinds of always-available lists and tech to help me think things out and keep track of things has also been a life saver.

But it's tough going, and I sure could use some help - especially when it comes to understanding myself and where my weaknesses are, so I can work on them. Right now it's just kind of muddy in my head and hard to get a grip on. I can write pages about it, but without really feeling like I've got my mind wrapped around it, and not knowing how much of it is accurately self-observing.

If only there was an easy answer, or a 10-step program!

SB_UK
09-27-13, 02:10 PM
I'm concentrating on memory as the root cause of all of my problems.
I remember nothing and don't want to remember anything.
I'm required to remember things (of course) -- in the workplace
- but actually would be quite happy out of the workplace without the need for memory.

What's the reason?
I'm never in the moment
So how can I remember it

I think Dave means - I'm ALWAYS in the moment and so cannot remember it.

SB_UK
09-27-13, 02:17 PM
An interesting question is - is this similar to Alzheimer's ?
Well - I've had it from day 1 - and so it hasn't developed recently
- has been with me from first memory.

And so it's not a stress-related progressive neurodegenerative thing.

It's simply - predisposition to being in the moment - which involves a resistance to laying down memories.

With memories - we find thoughts driven - we live in that space
- I think that an unfortunate / fortunate consequence of living in the moment

- is the working memory issue we're reporting.

Do you for instance find that you can't quite process things in real-time
- ideas fly by too quickly to dissect and store ?
So - you get used to letting ideas fly past you.

And also that when you try and push some idea into memory
- your mind is resistant to accepting the datapoint ?

You then feel it there - but you know that it's not going to be there for much longer.

I compensate (I'm sure you do also) by writing everything down.
And by repetition placing tasks into a place where the mind (which I'm saying is absent) does not operate.

So - a little repetition in - and all tasks become easier.

I hate doing plenty of new things simultaneously - need to set up protocols for things
- and then simply repeat them.

drkwood
09-27-13, 02:19 PM
Working memory is one of the executive functions. You can have an executive deficit disorder without ADHD, but all people with ADHD have executive deficits. So, if all you have is poor working memory, you don't have ADHD.

SB_UK
09-27-13, 02:46 PM
Over the last 10 years here the term executive function has been given a real kicking because it's a bit like saying that a car moves by driven function.
It's not mechanistic - just a function of the mind/body which is given a label
- and which we're then considered to be defective in.
It's very unsatisfactory.
Anyway - let's imagine executive function represents the control modules which operate to drive an ADDer and nonADDer.
There're definitely different control functions in place in ADDer and nonADDer
- though to suggest we've 'control module' deficits is a little rich - because it suggests that nonADD have an optimal 'control module'.

One of my favourite quotes is 'it's no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society'
- in fact, the psychopath 'd thrive in the hierarchical society we have in place
- you'd have to psychopathic to engage in any purchase which is in excess to basic survival requirements - when the majority of the planet hasn't even that

- and so I'd like to suggest that we've a better control module to nonADDer - because we're not well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.

Ahhh! But why can't we be 'tendency towards morality' with a great short term / working memory
- well - I think the answer is - as I study my own mind

- that I know that the memory keeps me 'in mind'
- in a space where I'm thinking, solving problems etc -

it's a form of imprisonment.

Think of it as being in a space where we're meant to be deconvoluted a knotted string.

When the string is untied and no longer a mess - we're freed from having to solve questions
- which most of us know (even if we don't feel) - are pointless in consideration.

So ... ... I'm trying to suggest that the ADDer control module is different from the nonADDer control module
- that loss of short term/working memory is a feature (not a bug) which characterizes us

- and that (and this will seem a bit strange at first) - but we're 'imprisoned' by mind - and are freed by releasing it.

The mind (although we pat ourselves on the back for how clever we are) is simply a late stage evolutionary development.

There's nothing ABSOLUTE about mind - it's just a thing which popped into place a few thousand years ago in 14 billions years of Universal history.

We (ADDers) are kicking ourselves for being unable to remember stuff.

i very much fear - that being unable to remember stuff - is the key to our release from the tyranny of mind.

Please take your time reading this post - as I may need to clarify things for you - it's going to be difficult to get this point across.

In one sentence - I'm trying to suggest that the thinking mind (attempting to solve problems) is a structure which we've been 'asked' to build - and when built - we move past.
ADDers are not great with paying attention to issues which don't interest us, throwing info into working/short term memory
- because (I'm 100% sure) - we've moved past 'mind' into the next place

- which I think relates to art.

So a kinda' science -> art transition.

SB_UK
09-27-13, 02:57 PM
You may have an aha! moment if you now examine how much people (particularly adders) love music.
There is no evolutionary precedent for gaining reward from music.

Music (art) shouldn't float our boat.

Music is very different from Science (classical mind ie deriving explanations)
- in that there's no end to art - but science can come to an end.

The ToE (Theory of Everything) is a statement of the end of science
- and is simply an explanation (a mechanism)
of how reality unfolded from pre Big Bang to now ... ... ....

It's not really a big deal - once you gettit - you've gotten it
- you're still alive and lucky for us - there's reward to be found elsewhere.

The mind is being 'retired' as such - and it's for the best
- people without globally logically consistent minds commit all manner of evil.

Once you've a globally logically consistent mind, you (the individual) realises (knows) that s/he knows nothing.

We're simply a late stage evolutionary product from an evolutionary fundamental substrate
- which continues to evolve.

What's there to know - nothing.

All that's there for us to do - is to ensure that evolution's will be done and set up a functional society in which we strive towards social reward (eg art).

SB_UK
09-27-13, 03:03 PM
Right - this subject is to hard to explain without looking for references

- luckily (I've just discovered) - they're all over the Internet.

Here's the first I've clicked on
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2012-09-10/edit-page/33714219_1_thoughts-overactive-mind-reality
- it'll do:
"If we were to take away thought and memory, what or who would we be? In most forms of meditation, as we go deeper and deeper, we choose to ignore all thoughts that are arising, giving them up one by one, till nothing remains. This no-thought stage is often the end point of meditation, where we only know that we exist. In the no-mind state, we don't have an identity, except as pure cons-ciousness or pure witness. This is our true Self, which can be felt or experienced only when there are absolutely no thoughts."

-*-

Anyway - there you go.

If you need any clarification fire away - but that article really does a great job of explaining what I've tried and no doubt failed to explain.

SB_UK
09-27-13, 03:06 PM
With memories - we find thoughts driven - we live in that space
ie not in the moment
==
This is our true Self, which can be felt or experienced only when there are absolutely no thoughts.

SB_UK
09-27-13, 03:12 PM
- and that (and this will seem a bit strange at first) - but we're 'imprisoned' by mind - and are freed by releasing it.
==
leading ourselves to break free of imprisonment

Funnily enough Ramana Maharshi's the only one of a whole suite of 'wise men' - who seemed to be genuine.

SB_UK
09-27-13, 03:17 PM
Here's a post from last year on that chap - where I appear to call him 'the real deal'
http://www.toequest.com/forum/general-philosophy/5956-let-us-talk-about-god-again-36.html#post160800

I don't believe I've said that about many others - and certainly not about others within recent history - he died in 1950.