View Full Version : Overlap between ADHD and Borderline Personality Disorder


Modafinilguy
10-17-13, 04:03 AM
Hi.

This is a subject which greatly interests me, as I feel it is a subject that has not been researched adequately by the scientific community.

So I am here to discuss the potential overlap between ADHD and Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD).

I think the occurrence of these two disorders together is more common than most people would expect.

I was diagnosed with ADHD as a child, but even though I was quite severe, it was not the choice of my parents to medicate me, and it was some time ago, so the diagnosis and treatment wasn't as mainstream as it is today.

However various traumatic events occurred in my life and at 13 I was diagnosed with BPD, as well as with Major Depression.

At 19 I was against diagnosed with BPD, and also Dysthmia (a type of depression).

When I was 21 another doctor diagnosed me with ADHD and I started on a treatment.

In my case Ritalin was essentially a miracle drug. I won't go into great detail about this, but it changed my life more than any medication I have ever encountered. However even from the beginning there were times when I felt anxious, physically tense and had a racing pulse.

Unfortunately after about 1 year on the medication I started experiencing progressively worsening panic attacks, as well as general pronounced tachycardia. Over the next 6 months I was forced to discontinue Ritalin due to these symptoms. Unfortunately I did not try any other ADHD medications, my belief at the time is that they would likely provoke the same side effects. I was "scared" of side effects, for many years I sort of lost "faith" in ADHD.

I know a 34 year old woman, that was diagnosed ADHD as a child. She was medicated at various times, but most recently in her life was put on Dexamphetamine at age 21. Like me, it was a miracle for her for a while, but like me, she also started having panic attack problems. She discontinued the medicine, and then a new therapist diagnosed her with BPD.

Unfortunately this woman soon fell into heavy alcoholism. She is frankly one of the worst alcoholics I have ever encountered. At this current time, her life is at serious risk due to her extreme, continuous drinking. All efforts to get her to stop alcohol have failed. She is constantly highly intoxicated and experiences dangerous withdrawal if she runs out of alcohol. It is very very sad.

I know another person, a man who is 20. He was diagnosed and medicated for ADHD as a child. However he also had an awful childhood at around the teenage years was diagnosed with BPD.

I know another woman (who is my housemate) that was diagnosed and treated for ADHD as a child, and was medicated up until the age of 15. However, while I think she has ADHD, it is my strong opinion that she exhibits classic and continuous signs of BPD, but she does not see a therapist and is not diagnosed.

Likewise my other housemate has been diagnosed BPD, but she is classically hyperactive as well, all the stereotypical things you read about ADHD, she seems to display. I am hesitant to suggest she gets treatment for ADHD, because she has abused methamphetamine at various times, though apparently has not become addicted. Both her parents were chronic methamphetamine addicts (injecting).

So I am just through my social network directly involved with and aware of various people who have received both ADHD and BPD diagnosis. I strongly believe I have both, and I know of various cases where I am highly confident the people meet criteria for BOTH disorders, though they have only been formally diagnosed with one of the disorders.

Most the people I know with the "dual diagnosis" also experienced significantly unstable/traumatic childhoods in general. This was in combination with fairly clear cut hyperactivity, inattentiveness and impulsive characteristics.

I am the only person I am aware of that had a fairly stable childhood, but also seem to have both diagnosis. I did however experience various significantly traumatic events at the beginning of adolescence.

The overlap between the two disorders is somewhat limited, but the overlap includes: impulsive symptoms (which are generally pronounced in both disorders), reactive/unstable mood (more severe in BPD, but commonly found in both disorders), and anger problems such as explosions of anger (common for both disorders but not a fundamental of either disorder).

I guess the main characteristic of ADHD and BPD individuals as opposed to pure ADHD individuals is significant emotional disturbance and instability, and serious identify/self esteem issues. People with BPD also commonly have significant instability in relationships, low ability to tolerate stress, and self harming behavior is common. Depression, anxiety and substance abuse seems common to both BPD and ADHD, as also are eating disorders.

Essentially people with BPD and ADHD seem to be very emotionally disturbed versions of people with ADHD, with major self esteem and relationship stability issues. I guess it is not surprising that many people that seem to have clear-cut ADHD are later diagnosed with BPD, when significant abuse, neglect and instability has been present in their childhood.

Also it is my observation and believe that people who do have both BPD and ADHD, tend to exhibit greater impulsive characteristics than people with just one of the disorders.

For example it must be said that I am quite profoundly impulsive.

I think to some degree, there may be a natural resistance to give people both these diagnosis. People that seem to have both are usually treated as if they only have BPD. I strongly believe however, that the best outcome may be obtained by considering and treating both diagnosis simultaneously. However I certainly feel more research needs to be done.

I am very interested in anyone else who is themselves or knows others with this dual diagnosis. Not just purely from formal diagnosis- the truth is I think there is a frequent failure for such people to be given correct diagnosis- but a strong suspicion of both diagnosis is also very interesting.

I have overcome a lot of what might be considered my BPD problems. There is some evidence, that with time, the severity of this diagnosis can gradually lessen. However my ADHD symptoms are as severe as always.

I am just trying to raise awareness of this issue (the occurrence of both these diagnosis together) because due to the fact I have encountered it so much, I can't believe that there are not a lot of other people around with these symptoms. As I know people mostly who have had traumatic and bad childhoods (often with ADHD diagnosis), I think the dual diagnosis will most commonly occur in ADHD people with traumatic backgrounds.

Thanks for your time. If anyone has any insight I would be very interested, because this is something I am very interested in. I am certain I meet the criteria for both disorders (although I may somewhat less meet the criteria for BPD these days), and I am convinced that my housemates have BOTH of these disorders. Unfortunately neither of them are receiving any type of help for either, despite the fact they definitely have significant and serious problems, though they are wonderful people in their own right.

I apologize for any errors, I have briefly corrected a few typos / word errors , but I am in a rush at the moment. I will be back in a few days to check this thread. Bye.

sarahsweets
10-17-13, 05:28 AM
This is very interesting. My gut reaction was "no way he must be crazy to think these two are similar!" UNTIL i looked up the symptoms. I look forward to reading what everyone else thinks, very good topic!

DmxDex
10-18-13, 04:44 PM
Deficent emotional self regulation is apart of adhd. People with adhd are often emtionally unstable.

daveddd
10-18-13, 08:55 PM
adhd =poor emotional regulation and impulsiveness

BPD = people who employ defense mechanisms against poor emotional regulation and impulsiveness, that include splitting, experiential avoidance, and self harming behaviors

marsha linehan(creator of DBT for BPD) noted a large amount of childhood "attentional" and "hyperactive" syndromes in her BPD patients

DmxDex
10-19-13, 06:30 AM
Yes but people with adhd have similar emotional instability like bpd. I have emotional dysregulation but I dont cut.

daveddd
10-19-13, 08:02 AM
yea, the emotional regulation issues are the same, probably even from the same source in a lot of cases

it becomes a personality disorder when someone uses a specific group of psychological defense mechanisms to combat the emotional regulation issues

cutting, splitting, distress avoidance and others

daveddd
10-19-13, 09:05 AM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21812103


this is what i meant by same source

mctavish23
10-19-13, 03:50 PM
Please remember one of the oldest tenets of the Scientific Method (which applies here) :

CORRELATION DOES NOT IMPLY CAUSATION.

Having studied the current science behind the disorder of ADHD for 28 years now, I know

of nothing to suggest that's true. There is a smaller, select subset of Conduct Disorder's

(approximately 20%), that ultimately meet the criteria for Antisocial Personality Disorder,

but that's far from significant; which, in terms of the entire body of diagnosed ADHD's, is

NOT.

The #1 most common, comorbid condition for Adult ADHD, is ANXIETY.


tc

mctavish23

(Robert)

daveddd
10-19-13, 05:50 PM
http://books.google.com/books?id=UZim3OAPwe8C&pg=PA42&dq=borderline+personality+disorder+biosocial&hl=en&sa=X&ei=UvxiUoKvDKOTyQGVjYFw&ved=0CD8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=borderline%20personality%20disorder%20biosocial&f=false

not a cause, but a vulnerability ?

as part of a biosocial or diathesis stress model

an inborn predisposition to emotional dysregulation

thomas brown mentions this quite a bit

someone with adhd is what, 25-30 times more likely to develop cluster b traits
http://books.google.com/books?id=mtccAAAAQBAJ&dq=thomas+brown+borderline+personality+disorder&hl=en&sa=X&ei=1_5iUoGAIYSSyAH-hoGgAg&output=reader&pg=GBS.RA1-PT64.w.2.1.98

mctavish23
10-19-13, 06:29 PM
Traits Don't Necessarily Always = Clinical Criteria.

Even When They Do, Most Clinicians Will Likely Either Miss ADHD Completely, Or Ignore It.

tc

mctavish23

(Robert)

daveddd
10-19-13, 11:44 PM
http://books.google.com/books?id=mF2poNOgOGkC&pg=PA8&dq=borderline+personality+disorder+neurological&hl=en&sa=X&ei=JVFjUu_gF6GSyAGg_YGYBA&ved=0CEsQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=borderline%20personality%20disorder%20neurologic al&f=false

MADD As A Hatte
10-20-13, 01:39 AM
Hi there Modafinilguy et al

I am also interested in the ADHD / Borderline Personality Disorder co-morbidity. My ADD psychologist had mentioned BPD to me a number of years ago, but it was a bit much for me to deal with. Getting my pea brain around my ADHD diagnosis was enough to cope with, at the time!

The aim of this post is to put forward what I've become aware of, to date.

At the 'Adults Living With ADHD' conference I went to in Sydney a couple of weeks ago, a clinical psychiatrist - Dr Gary Galambos (Australian) - gave a fascinating presentation on co-morbidities, and explained their non-ideological diagnosis in psychiatry (i.e. diagnosis made not from the medical model, but rather from analysis in a clinical setting of CLUSTERS of symptoms).

Long short, Galambos quoted current research that shows 77% of ADHD people have a co-morbid disorder (i.e. you have ADHD plus something else). He talked about how co-morbidities complicate the diagnostic process and consequently, how they contribute to a failure to diagnose ADHD.

He then outlined the Eleven Typical Co-Morbidities And then he went through the 12 MIMICKING disorders, which are separate to co-morbidities. (I won't list them here, but ask me, if you're interested).

He further talked about how the low self-esteem issues of ADHD adults (which result directly from childhood experience) lead to CLUSTERS OF BEHAVIOURS, including:

- avoidance of and difficulty with intimacy
- worrying, sensitivity, and anxiety
- being prone to dysthymia (depression)
- poor self-regard / self-hostility (e.g. self-hatred, self-harm)
- eating disorders (borderline traits, partic in females)
- substance abuse (partic 'angry young men')

When he got to Borderline Personality Order (in the co-morbids list), my little ears pricked up. Galambos, in a nutshell, described Borderline Personality Disorder as including a majority or all of the following behaviours:

- self-sabotage
- self-harm
- dislike of self
- emotional upheaval
- anger

Galambos' presentation included a model (using the analogy of a boat and it's Captain) of how ADHD affects the mind-brain-body interaction, and his concluding statement was (in relation to clinicians) 'you cannot consider ADD in isolation .. you have to work out the interaction'.

----

Dr Russell Barkley (American) also puts forward informative and interesting observations based on his professional career, and personal family experience, about ADHD and co-morbids ... he has some excellent short videos on youtube. There's also an hour long video of his 2012 Burnett lecture which is worth watching. (Some aspects of the lecture have been discussed in a separate thread started by concertaparent - apologies, I don't know how to link to the thread).

Anyway, thanks to Modafinilguy for raising discussion on a topic that I find to be of particular interest.

Cheers
.

Modafinilguy
10-24-13, 04:51 AM
Hi, really interesting stuff people!

I am rushing by at the moment (housemates distracting me)

But I read somewhere, a scientific source (but did not keep link) that said 25% of people with BPD likely have ADHD, so ADHD is much, much more common in people with BPD than in "normal" people.

Have to go.

daveddd
10-24-13, 06:08 AM
newer numbers are 25 % of ADHD people have BPD

and up to 75% of BPD people have adhd

MADD As A Hatte
10-24-13, 06:40 AM
newer numbers are xx &% of ADHD people have BPD ... and up to xx!% BPD people have adhd


With respect, the figures quoted are not correct. The current academic and psychiatric research, as summarized in the 2012 Burnett lecture, by Dr Russell Barkley, are:

2-6% of ADHD people ever develop Bi-Polar = ADHD is NOT a risk factor for Bi-Polar

Of ADULT Onset BiPolar, 25% have ADHD
Of CHILD Onset BiPolar (at age <12 years), 97% have ADHD

Having ADHD does NOT predict bi-polar, it is a one-directional relationship i.e. BiPolar predicts ADHD, not vice versa.

Time well spent would be to view the Dr Russ Barkley 2012 Burnett lecture, which is highly informative. Viewing all three videos is a truly valuable experience:

Burnett 2012 lecture - Parts 1 & 2, Part 3 (Q&A session)
http://learningcenter.unc.edu/ldadhd-services/burnett-seminars/dr-russell-barkley/

As an observation ... There are a lot of newbies on this site. I believe we best serve them, ourselves and the ADHD community at large by checking our sources for any information we choose to quote / reference.

Cheers
.

daveddd
10-24-13, 06:45 AM
this thread is about borderline personality disorder

thats what im talking about

thanks for checking me though, no need to tell me what to read though, ive read everything barkley has written


my numbers are from thomas browns(yale) book i linked above

MADD As A Hatte
10-24-13, 07:03 AM
this thread is about borderline personality disorder

my numbers are from thomas browns(yale) book i linked above

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=mF2poNOgOGkC&dq=borderline+personality+disorder+neurological&sitesec=reviews



Thanks, daveddd. Could you please note the relevant pages in the Hoffman (ed.) text. I'd be interested to see how Brown justifies his findings

.
.

daveddd
10-24-13, 07:26 AM
http://books.google.com/books?id=mtccAAAAQBAJ&dq=thomas+brown+borderline+personality+disorder&hl=en&sa=X&ei=1_5iUoGAIYSSyAH-hoGgAg&output=reader&pg=GBS.RA1-PT64.w.2.1.98

thomas browns book pg 121

the original study was done by joel nigg, a very highly regarded adhd researcher
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17696708
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19835674


the information is fairly common now

daveddd
10-24-13, 07:32 AM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3214601/

this is also relevant

Modafinilguy
10-27-13, 07:21 AM
Very interesting.

The association between these disorders fascinates me.

LOL. Hardly surprising I am so interested though, considering I have both :) (that is VERY clear).

MADD As A Hatte
10-28-13, 07:10 AM
http://books.google.com/books?id=mtccAAAAQBAJ&dq=thomas+brown+borderline+personality+disorder&hl=en&sa=X&ei=1_5iUoGAIYSSyAH-hoGgAg&output=reader&pg=GBS.RA1-PT64.w.2.1.98

thomas browns book pg 121


Hi daveddd, Just wanted to say thanks for the nudge in the direction of Brown's book. I have this evening downloaded it in pdf format from the university online library. I look forward to reading it, it looks excellent. Cheers

Modafinilguy
11-06-13, 07:20 AM
Your signature is interesting MADD As A Hatte. (http://www.addforums.com/forums/member.php?u=76970)

"Having ADHD is like having erectile dysfunction of the mind."

Sorry corrupted the text. But above quote is brilliant, sexually X rated, but brilliant.


Russell A. Barkley,

Hey MADD as a Hatte, got an email response from this guy the other day, but he is off to africa and has not much time, I'll try in a few months, I admit I idolize him like a god, he is a massive ADHD figure, a super hero of ADHD!

Modafinilguy
11-06-13, 07:23 AM
Hey guys, a challenge to you (okay I had a few beers- not too much, I'm in a bit of a "world peace" sort of mood)

But anyone can offer much inside about ADHD or BPD or combo- very appreciated ANY insightful opinions, ANY citation of relevant scientific data!

It is the perspective- both these disorders at once (though ADHD is the primary, uppering disorder), that allows me to find well understand and a direction for the future.

Some people with BPD, it is know are NASTY awful conscience less peopel. But many good ones too. One lives with me. And if you want to see a nice BPD woman. Well I can probably do a quick film and youtube link, post it here if provoked. She is bloody bubbly, and guys find her well pretty damn good looking, I know that for a fact.

But when she gets home, I also have a pretty 23 year old women (oh mega ADHD), petite and slim, she may do a video :)

I won't show myself though, fat, scruffy, omg omg I am not photogenic. Great personality, caring, supportive, massive complex mental disorders, but over a top bloke :) I look like a derelict bum lol, I am slightly proud of it in a twisted way.


This is all theoretical, semi-drunken speculation.

Just having fun people

I am a creative thinker, and if you guys have some craving may be able to provide something slightly more engaging than text for you to consider in regards to ADHD (name removed by moderator) and if interested in BPD (name removed by moderator)

They are great, smash me in the head with a hammer, women! Complex, painful at times, but worth it!

I know a lot more, but they are the ones who sleep in this house :)

If I wasn't so ugly, I'd love to show my hyper-impulsive ways causing mayhem in front of a camera :)

Bye for now people. Please provide any info or insight you can. Any experience with this, people you have know, I am very interested in ANY credible information you know.

Thanks everyone

daveddd
11-06-13, 07:33 AM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24117059
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23424747

an important thing to remember is that BPD is not some specific incurable brain disease

its a way the mind organizes itself to deal with emotional pain

there is a type of bpd that involves unemotional callous traits, its not related to adhd

people with adhd also use some of the similar defense mechanisms , due to lack of the ability to self regulate emotion


so i believe its valid and important to not fear the term bpd

low_dopamine
02-23-14, 10:46 AM
One thing I'm still very confused about is: how are the brains of people with BPD different from those of people with ADD? How are the neurological causes for the two different?

I've tried reading/researching this, but I feel just as sad and confused as ever.

daveddd
02-23-14, 11:13 AM
One thing I'm still very confused about is: how are the brains of people with BPD different from those of people with ADD? How are the neurological causes for the two different?

I've tried reading/researching this, but I feel just as sad and confused as ever.

both have overactive amygdala activity (emotional sensitivity ) and difference in the PFC (poor emotional regulation)

a strong theory is BPD is ADHD with more severe life stressors added in the mix

that would lead to stronger conditioned avoidance responses

or quantitive as opposed to qualitative differences

affect dysregulation spectrum and learned outcomes

low_dopamine
02-23-14, 02:12 PM
So then why is it that stimulants help ADD people but not BPD people?

daveddd
02-23-14, 02:27 PM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18446088

i think its got more to due with abuse likelihood , than not helping

my sister is BPD, she gets helped by stims

HabitualCreatur
10-27-14, 06:38 AM
Hello

I have to admit when I was researching "something" to do with ADHD (dang memory!) I came across the borderline personality disorder (PD) comorbidity rates. Intrigued, and more than 'fed up' with my unmedicated-ADHD-self, i started to reseach the PD.

I have to admit, the few articles i read online made me feel that they are very similar, at least on the surface, both in etiology and "symptoms."

I actually emailed my psychologist (who specialises in ADHD, aspergers and autism), and is a neuropsychologist (the best I've found in terms of diagnosis, and treatment, i might add, but i digress... ahem... ).. and asked her for her input on the PD, and whether my undiagnosed for 40yrs ADHD may have evolved into it. Here's what she had to say for those interested in this particular PD:

(i realise there are subtypes, which my psych doesn't mention, but I feel this is worth sharing in terms of clarifying the more "classic/textbook" bpd.


Quote: "I know borderline very well… have treated people for years.

Their reactivity is much more dramatic than ADHD and they get VERY ACTIVELY into big social emotional trouble .. one defining criteria is FREQUENT AND DYSFUNCITONAL RELATIONSHIPS. They wreck other people’s lives and sail on ignorant of this. Usually use SEX to have power and control. Unwanted pregnancy common due to impulsivity. Don’t even think of contraception in sex with strangers !! So, not so impulsive with words, but are with action ….. flirting and inappropriate sexual poses and clothing a usual practice.

The women I have known with this are often extremely aggressive and violent. They beat up their partners and commit domestic violence and then blame the partner for this !!! They seek out relationships ….. NEVER HIDE AWAY as you have done. They are usually also NARCISSISTIC and don’t have much empathy for others. Don’t help others out. STAY ALOOF from others needs as have enough trouble handling their own. Manipulative++++

Suicidal threats are common and attempts usually in the mix.

BPD is believed to have a genetic component (probably to do with the size and volume of the emotion processing organs in the brain) and environmental i.e. traumatic events affecting emotion system brain wiring…. Likely to include attachment issues." End quote.

I can safely rule out the classic/textbook bpd type - phew (don't you HATE being overwhelmed by new info, and too much of it??) ;).

Hope this sheds some light - i'm not going to personally dwell on the subtypes of BPD. I've booked in to see a psychiatrist to discuss possible medications to manage some of the more severe "symptoms" of ADHD (i've just finished reading "Driven to Distraction" and am taking it and the section on this subject (medication) along with me to help "guide" the treatment plan :)... wish me luck - i don't like the idea of meds.. but what the hey - 44yrs is long enough to procrastinate on the point!

Best

HC

daveddd
10-30-14, 11:14 PM
Hello

I have to admit when I was researching "something" to do with ADHD (dang memory!) I came across the borderline personality disorder (PD) comorbidity rates. Intrigued, and more than 'fed up' with my unmedicated-ADHD-self, i started to reseach the PD.

I have to admit, the few articles i read online made me feel that they are very similar, at least on the surface, both in etiology and "symptoms."

I actually emailed my psychologist (who specialises in ADHD, aspergers and autism), and is a neuropsychologist (the best I've found in terms of diagnosis, and treatment, i might add, but i digress... ahem... ).. and asked her for her input on the PD, and whether my undiagnosed for 40yrs ADHD may have evolved into it. Here's what she had to say for those interested in this particular PD:

(i realise there are subtypes, which my psych doesn't mention, but I feel this is worth sharing in terms of clarifying the more "classic/textbook" bpd.


Quote: "I know borderline very well… have treated people for years.

Their reactivity is much more dramatic than ADHD and they get VERY ACTIVELY into big social emotional trouble .. one defining criteria is FREQUENT AND DYSFUNCITONAL RELATIONSHIPS. They wreck other people’s lives and sail on ignorant of this. Usually use SEX to have power and control. Unwanted pregnancy common due to impulsivity. Don’t even think of contraception in sex with strangers !! So, not so impulsive with words, but are with action ….. flirting and inappropriate sexual poses and clothing a usual practice.

The women I have known with this are often extremely aggressive and violent. They beat up their partners and commit domestic violence and then blame the partner for this !!! They seek out relationships ….. NEVER HIDE AWAY as you have done. They are usually also NARCISSISTIC and don’t have much empathy for others. Don’t help others out. STAY ALOOF from others needs as have enough trouble handling their own. Manipulative++++

Suicidal threats are common and attempts usually in the mix.

BPD is believed to have a genetic component (probably to do with the size and volume of the emotion processing organs in the brain) and environmental i.e. traumatic events affecting emotion system brain wiring…. Likely to include attachment issues." End quote.

I can safely rule out the classic/textbook bpd type - phew (don't you HATE being overwhelmed by new info, and too much of it??) ;).

Hope this sheds some light - i'm not going to personally dwell on the subtypes of BPD. I've booked in to see a psychiatrist to discuss possible medications to manage some of the more severe "symptoms" of ADHD (i've just finished reading "Driven to Distraction" and am taking it and the section on this subject (medication) along with me to help "guide" the treatment plan :)... wish me luck - i don't like the idea of meds.. but what the hey - 44yrs is long enough to procrastinate on the point!

Best

HC


huh, well i guess if she's treated them for years

although that sounds more like the hollywood version then textbook

according to linehans (creator of dBT, first successful treatment for BPD that also works for adhd) literature this is way off base

BellaVita
10-30-14, 11:30 PM
huh, well i guess if she's treated them for years

although that sounds more like the hollywood version then textbook

according to linehans (creator of dBT, first successful treatment for BPD that also works for adhd) literature this is way off base

I have to disagree, I have been in a relationship with someone with BPD and they fit what was quoted in the above post really well. (It was a year and 4 months)

It was very crazy, and it was like reading the storyline of our relationship by reading the quote above.

Also, I'd like to add that I think it's true BPDs are known for their impulsive actions, however, they very well are often impulsive and abusive with their words.

It's like the two are tied together.

Another thing yeah, the suicide attempts thing is freaky my ex did that to manipulate me.

I think "They wreck other people’s lives and sail on ignorant of this" perfectly sums up what it's like being around a BPD....and they always have "reasons" for their behavior, placing the blame on those around them for their very actions.

Once, my ex grabbed my hand and hit my knuckle against his head, which left me with a swollen hurting hand for MONTHS - anyway, in the moment he blamed it on his father (who gave him a traumatic childhood with abuse) saying "I got confused and thought you were my father."

Flory
10-30-14, 11:46 PM
i think there is a link but i think people who meet the diagnostic criteria for a conduct disorder in childhood are more likely to have a true BPD than someone with adhd alone.

bpd like a lot of pd's is an abhorrent coping mechanism that has a lot to do with environmental factors such as abuse, neglect etc.

I think that whilst we may emote impulsively it is completely different to that of somebody with bpd.....

e.g often times when bpd individuals act out like showing up in er after overdosing for the umpteenth time with no suicidal intent, wreaking havoc with medical professionals such as attempting to set one against another (my mum is a psych nurse and see's alot of this stuff literally every day) getting themselves intentionally into situations which are high drama high fuss for instance getting arrested. they do this is a way of managing emptiness, sadness, rejection etc etc

however negative the attention may be its an extremely sad way of filling the emptiness that they feel....they are forever trying to replace something that was missing from childhood by getting engaged in these high conflict situations and not knowing how to mange their own relationships because of poor examples set in childhood....

whereas when I lose my temper without thinking or call the bank assistant a rude c**t, there was 0 forethought in to it, i wasnt doing it to fill a void deep within me, or for attention i just got frustrated and it happened....i feel like a terrible person afterward and where i have realised my errors i always always apologise...

but i dont know that you can liken the bpd emoting to adhd emoting

daveddd
10-30-14, 11:47 PM
and you stayed with him for that long?

was he diagnosed?

according to linehan , abused populations made up about 30 % of BPD

about 70 % were extremely sensitive (emotionally and sensory) and had childhood disorders , mainly adhd, epilepsy and LDs

personality disorders dx are going to the wayside, they're aren't really clear distinctions

two people can meet the criteria for BPD, and only share one symptom

daveddd
10-30-14, 11:52 PM
Am J Med Genet B Neuropsychiatr Genet. 2011 Dec;156B(7):817-25. doi: 10.1002/ajmg.b.31226. Epub 2011 Aug 2.
Borderline personality traits and adult attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder symptoms: a genetic analysis of comorbidity.
Distel MA1, Carlier A, Middeldorp CM, Derom CA, Lubke GH, Boomsma DI.
Author information
Abstract
Previous research has established the comorbidity of adult Attention-Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) with different personality disorders including Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD). The association between adult ADHD and BPD has primarily been investigated at the phenotypic level and not yet at the genetic level. The present study investigates the genetic and environmental contributions to the association between borderline personality traits (BPT) and ADHD symptoms in a sample of 7,233 twins and siblings (aged 18-90 years) registered with the Netherlands Twin Register and the East Flanders Prospective Twin Survey (EFPTS) . Participants completed the Conners' Adult ADHD Rating Scales (CAARS-S:SV) and the Personality Assessment Inventory-Borderline Features Scale (PAI-BOR). A bivariate genetic analysis was performed to determine the extent to which genetic and environmental factors influence variation in BPT and ADHD symptoms and the covariance between them. The heritability of BPT and ADHD symptoms was estimated at 45 and 36%, respectively. The remaining variance in BPT and ADHD symptoms was explained by unique environmental influences. The phenotypic correlation between BPT and ADHD symptoms was estimated at r = 0.59, and could be explained for 49% by genetic factors and 51% by environmental factors. The genetic and environmental correlations between BPT and ADHD symptoms were 0.72 and 0.51, respectively. The shared etiology between BPT and ADHD symptoms is thus a likely cause for the comorbidity of the two disorders.
Copyright © 2011 Wiley-Liss, Inc.

daveddd
10-31-14, 12:01 AM
my sister is officially diagnosed with BPD

she's nothing like that description

BellaVita
10-31-14, 12:21 AM
and you stayed with him for that long?

was he diagnosed?

according to linehan , abused populations made up about 30 % of BPD

about 70 % were extremely sensitive (emotionally and sensory) and had childhood disorders , mainly adhd, epilepsy and LDs

personality disorders dx are going to the wayside, they're aren't really clear distinctions

two people can meet the criteria for BPD, and only share one symptom

Yep, I indeed stayed with him that long. I'm a very dedicated and loyal person, also *I* grew up with abusive parents , so I think I didn't know any different and thought he was normal. (My parents are crazy too...and manipulative)

He had the splitting, and met all of the criteria for BPD in the DSM IV.

He did get sent to a mental hospital for outrageous behavior, they ended up diagnosing him with manic-depressive illness although it was *very* clear with my being with him for so long that no, he did NOT have that and actually had BPD.

At the mental hospital he manipulated the staff and "snapped out" of his behavior, pleased them just so he could get out early. He even told me this.

Yeah I can't diagnose, but I've read lots about BPD and Bipolar (I *have* Bipolar) and BPD is definitely what he was displaying.

If you were to ask me questions about his behavior and I respond, you too would clearly see a case of BPD.

BellaVita
10-31-14, 12:25 AM
my sister is officially diagnosed with BPD

she's nothing like that description

I'm guessing just like with anything , for example classic Bipolar descriptions and how they often don't fit some people who *do* have Bipolar (they show symptoms differently - for example the dysphoric hypomania irritability/anxiousness often gets missed), could happen with her.

Not everyone is a textbook case, but can still very well have the PD.

daveddd
10-31-14, 12:33 AM
i believe you

although diagnosing PDs is something that can't really even be done accurately by top notch professionals (likely why psycobiologists are successfully heading to a dimensional model of psychiatry , the separately acquired distinct syndrome model is useless to patients)


splitting is a defense in all PDs


you said you were really into psychobiology

this is the cutting edge now (splitting is a dissociative mechanism)



http://books.google.com/books?id=RziDAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA230&dq=dissociation+2014&hl=en&sa=X&ei=kBBTVO6nDIOnyQTH2IG4CQ&ved=0CDcQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=dissociation%202014&f=false

BellaVita
10-31-14, 12:38 AM
i believe you

although diagnosing PDs is something that can't really even be done accurately by top notch professionals (likely why psycobiologists are successfully heading to a dimensional model of psychiatry , the separately acquired distinct syndrome model is useless to patients)


splitting is a defense in all PDs


you said you were really into psychobiology

this is the cutting edge now (splitting is a dissociative mechanism)



http://books.google.com/books?id=RziDAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA230&dq=dissociation+2014&hl=en&sa=X&ei=kBBTVO6nDIOnyQTH2IG4CQ&ved=0CDcQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=dissociation%202014&f=false

You remembered! :o

Thanks a ton daveddd

daveddd
10-31-14, 12:43 AM
You remembered! :o

Thanks a ton daveddd

don't you tell anybody;)

BellaVita
10-31-14, 12:45 AM
Very interesting so far, wow!

Hehe, at the top it touched a bit on oxytocin, one of my favorite things to research!

The PTSD bit was interesting too.

daveddd
10-31-14, 12:47 AM
Very interesting so far, wow!

Hehe, at the top it touched a bit on oxytocin, one of my favorite things to research!

The PTSD bit was interesting too.

really!!!!!!


i looooooovvvvvveeeee oxytocin!!

BellaVita
10-31-14, 12:49 AM
really!!!!!!


i looooooovvvvvveeeee oxytocin!!

Yeah!!!!!!

Lol, don't we all ;)


:eyebrow:

:D

(Here's a hug for you since you love oxytocin! :grouphug:)

BellaVita
10-31-14, 12:51 AM
Hmmmm, oxytocin and BPD....hmmm.....

daveddd
10-31-14, 12:58 AM
I'm guessing just like with anything , for example classic Bipolar descriptions and how they often don't fit some people who *do* have Bipolar (they show symptoms differently - for example the dysphoric hypomania irritability/anxiousness often gets missed), could happen with her.

Not everyone is a textbook case, but can still very well have the PD.

yea one thing

millón and kern berg (leaders in PD research) both noted in most PDs, you have

too emotional sensitive and callous and unemotional

both opposite ends leading to similar defense

BellaVita
10-31-14, 01:00 AM
yea one thing

millón and kern berg (leaders in PD research) both noted in most PDs, you have

too emotional sensitive and callous and unemotional

both opposite ends leading to similar defense

Yeah, intriguing

daveddd
10-31-14, 01:00 AM
Hmmmm, oxytocin and BPD....hmmm.....


hmmmm:)


http://books.google.com/books?id=8xHPh5GccjcC&pg=PA62&dq=oxytocin+borderline+personality+disorder&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_RVTVOWpFc6OyAS8uYLwBQ&ved=0CDwQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=oxytocin%20borderline%20personality%20disorder&f=false

HabitualCreatur
11-06-14, 01:26 AM
I have to say, DaveDDD that I agree... I think I may have been too hasty quoting her. I think i'll ask the moderators to delete this thread.

As I read more and more on "borderline" I realise how extreme her version is, and I'm sorry to say that I'm disappointed that she wasn't more objective in telling me her thoughts... for e.g., "I've dealt with this type, but don't be alarmed, as with anything, it's on a spetrum."

Regards
HC

BellaVita
11-06-14, 04:42 AM
I have to say, DaveDDD that I agree... I think I may have been too hasty quoting her. I think i'll ask the moderators to delete this thread.

As I read more and more on "borderline" I realise how extreme her version is, and I'm sorry to say that I'm disappointed that she wasn't more objective in telling me her thoughts... for e.g., "I've dealt with this type, but don't be alarmed, as with anything, it's on a spetrum."

Regards
HC

I agree it's on a spectrum, but I do think there are those who meet what she described.

HabitualCreatur
11-06-14, 04:51 AM
Apologies, i meant delete my post to this thread, not the thread itself....

HC

daveddd
11-06-14, 07:34 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KiihIE0d0c


hey guys , check out this video from 12:30 to 13:15 or so

linehan is the worlds most cited clinician on BPD

there is another name now for a biological inborn regulation disorder its called adhd

cool stuff

InvitroCanibal
12-12-14, 02:22 AM
Ask a psychologist and your borderline, ask a psychiatrist and you're bipolar/adhd. Ask a neurologist and you have a traumatic brain injury. Ask a physician and you have poor diet and exercise. Ask God? He'll just shrug and say "oops?"

TygerSan
12-12-14, 10:31 AM
It is so true that your diagnosis(es) depend on who you see to get them. There was someone on another board whose child was diagnosed with a non-verbal learning disorder with OCD and semantic-pragmatic language disorder. Aspergers? I asked. Apparently autism hadn't been considered because the child was "social" :scratch:

MissTotos
01-15-15, 07:20 PM
I am both BPD and ADD. Interesting bag o' crazy. I wouldn't be surprised to find out many people have both and just weren't aware or diagnosed properly.

icarusinflames
04-30-15, 05:09 PM
BPD = people who employ defense mechanisms against poor emotional regulation and impulsiveness, that include splitting, experiential avoidance, and self harming behaviors

Apologies if I responded to an ancient thread in my forums diving. But!

wow! So experiential avoidance is almost always the norm for a borderline individual? This means doing things to avoid thinking about anything painful?

I most definitely do NOT have bipolar disorder because on a daily basis, I roast myself over the flames coming up from a very personal hell! Every day, the natives (me) want fresh roasted me. lol. In other words, I definitely revisit and ruminate and turn over all the painful things, even when it's years later.

icarusinflames
04-30-15, 05:11 PM
Ask a psychologist and your borderline, ask a psychiatrist and you're bipolar/adhd. Ask a neurologist and you have a traumatic brain injury. Ask a physician and you have poor diet and exercise. Ask God? He'll just shrug and say "oops?"

Wow this must surely go down as one of the best things ever said on the forums. lol!

daveddd
05-01-15, 10:04 PM
Apologies if I responded to an ancient thread in my forums diving. But!

wow! So experiential avoidance is almost always the norm for a borderline individual? This means doing things to avoid thinking about anything painful?

I most definitely do NOT have bipolar disorder because on a daily basis, I roast myself over the flames coming up from a very personal hell! Every day, the natives (me) want fresh roasted me. lol. In other words, I definitely revisit and ruminate and turn over all the painful things, even when it's years later.

Linehan believes the borderlines entire condition revolves around experiential avoidance

psychology today is heading towards most conditions having some roots in experiential avoidance

i guess how you avoid is whats important?

xstarchildx
11-26-15, 07:24 PM
I've been diagnosed with both A.D.H.D and BPD x

daveddd
11-27-15, 08:06 AM
I've been diagnosed with both A.D.H.D and BPD x

my sister as well

there is a strong, well overdue push to combine the axis

http://www.dsm5.org/Documents/Personality%20Disorders%20Fact%20Sheet.pdf

hopefully we can elimate the artificial differences that have become common

like group A has these traits only because of a constitutional difference, while group B is simply vindictive

its hurtful and very innacurate


are you treating them both together?

Adenosine
12-23-15, 05:52 AM
my sister as well

there is a strong, well overdue push to combine the axis

http://www.dsm5.org/Documents/Personality%20Disorders%20Fact%20Sheet.pdf

hopefully we can elimate the artificial differences that have become common

like group A has these traits only because of a constitutional difference, while group B is simply vindictive

its hurtful and very innacurate


are you treating them both together?I wonder why schizotypal is still classed as a personality disorder. It has hereditary associations with schizophrenia, and a lot of its perceptual symptoms have a little bit of psychotic flavoring, rather than just emotional dysfunction.

Donny997
01-15-16, 02:53 PM
I've noticed this correlation between ADHD and BPD SPECTRUM in people I know as well. I had two friends both diagnosed with ADHD as kids, as although they weren't BPD, they did show evidence of gender identity problems. Along with self-identity issues, BPD people often present as bisexual, or in milder form at least a feeling of inadequate identification with their own gender role, e.g. a male who feels inadequate to take on the male role in society and with women.

From what I know of the psychodynamic explanation of BPD etiolgy, both BPD and Dependent personality (which is often considered a high level "neurotic" version of BPD) show disruptions in the separation-individuation phase of childhood. Where the symbiotic period of bonding between mother and child probably help activate serotonergic and oxytocin systems in the brain (Theodore Millon hypothesized that Dependent personalities have higher levels of oxytocin allowing for greater attaching behaviour), I have a theory that the separation-individuation period might help activate DOPAMINE systems. Or vice versa: i.e. adequate oxytocin functioning in the infant pulls for greater need for attachment to Mother, and dopaminergic functioning allows for a greater PUSH in the child for separation-individuation.

What we know about Dopamine in relation to PERSONALITY functioning is that it relates to one's direction in life, purpose, having own goals and control over existence - all this mimics what the child does at 1-2 years in the separation-individuation sub phase. I've heard Nancy Williams talk about self-agency in the following lecture:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZh3V81MkXw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZh3V81MkXw)

At 30:20 she mentions how "self-agency" could be regulated by dopamine. From what I understand, BPDers lack this internal locus of control, direction, and purpose in their own lives. So I thought maybe A) BPD behaviours COULD be somewhat related to dopamine dysfunction, and B) that dopamine dysfunction could be an innate thing OR caused by inadequate separation-individuation (which, again, is the psychoanalytic theory of the etiology of BPD and DPD to a midler extent. Author James Masterson formulated this theory out of Margaret Mahler's work on developmental phases.)

So maybe an inadequate SEPARATION phase in infancy can fail to activate the "agency chemicals," i.e. dopamine, in the same way that a lack of symbiotic attachment to mother can fail to activate the "love/ bonding chemicals," i.e. oxytocin and probably to a lesser extent serotonin (highly simplistic though). Thus, the BPDer will show ADHD-like behaviours resulting from dopamine dysfunction, hence the correlation. So it's not that ADHD is related to BPD but that the formation of BPD could possibly also cause ADHD symptoms.

All amateur conjecture my friends - I have no science background whatsoever. Have only done a lot of reading of psychology.

Donny997
01-15-16, 05:02 PM
Ugh, I spent a long time editing the above post to more clearly say what I was trying to say. My working memory is terrible so I have to edit my writing a lot or it doesn't make much sense lol. I didn't realize there was a time-limit on edits!

Husky42
01-22-16, 01:10 PM
This is all so very interesting to me.

I was diagnosed by two counselors and a prescriber as ADHD/Bi Polar and they suspect a form of BPD/Personality Disorder.

How can you be all three?

Donny997
01-22-16, 05:18 PM
Neurocognitive impairment as a moderator in the development of borderline personality disorder

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16613436

daveddd
01-24-16, 03:34 AM
This is all so very interesting to me.

I was diagnosed by two counselors and a prescriber as ADHD/Bi Polar and they suspect a form of BPD/Personality Disorder.

How can you be all three?

because these are simply lists of symptoms, its very common to have the symptoms of these three, they likely are a complete presentation as opposed to having say, three separate blood pathogens

daveddd
01-24-16, 03:38 AM
I've noticed this correlation between ADHD and BPD SPECTRUM in people I know as well. I had two friends both diagnosed with ADHD as kids, as although they weren't BPD, they did show evidence of gender identity problems. Along with self-identity issues, BPD people often present as bisexual, or in milder form at least a feeling of inadequate identification with their own gender role, e.g. a male who feels inadequate to take on the male role in society and with women.

From what I know of the psychodynamic explanation of BPD etiolgy, both BPD and Dependent personality (which is often considered a high level "neurotic" version of BPD) show disruptions in the separation-individuation phase of childhood. Where the symbiotic period of bonding between mother and child probably help activate serotonergic and oxytocin systems in the brain (Theodore Millon hypothesized that Dependent personalities have higher levels of oxytocin allowing for greater attaching behaviour), I have a theory that the separation-individuation period might help activate DOPAMINE systems. Or vice versa: i.e. adequate oxytocin functioning in the infant pulls for greater need for attachment to Mother, and dopaminergic functioning allows for a greater PUSH in the child for separation-individuation.

What we know about Dopamine in relation to PERSONALITY functioning is that it relates to one's direction in life, purpose, having own goals and control over existence - all this mimics what the child does at 1-2 years in the separation-individuation sub phase. I've heard Nancy Williams talk about self-agency in the following lecture:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZh3V81MkXw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZh3V81MkXw)

At 30:20 she mentions how "self-agency" could be regulated by dopamine. From what I understand, BPDers lack this internal locus of control, direction, and purpose in their own lives. So I thought maybe A) BPD behaviours COULD be somewhat related to dopamine dysfunction, and B) that dopamine dysfunction could be an innate thing OR caused by inadequate separation-individuation (which, again, is the psychoanalytic theory of the etiology of BPD and DPD to a midler extent. Author James Masterson formulated this theory out of Margaret Mahler's work on developmental phases.)

So maybe an inadequate SEPARATION phase in infancy can fail to activate the "agency chemicals," i.e. dopamine, in the same way that a lack of symbiotic attachment to mother can fail to activate the "love/ bonding chemicals," i.e. oxytocin and probably to a lesser extent serotonin (highly simplistic though). Thus, the BPDer will show ADHD-like behaviours resulting from dopamine dysfunction, hence the correlation. So it's not that ADHD is related to BPD but that the formation of BPD could possibly also cause ADHD symptoms.

All amateur conjecture my friends - I have no science background whatsoever. Have only done a lot of reading of psychology.

very interesting points and ill watch the video shortly

I'm not convinced of the A causes B so much as certain dispositions could lead to A as well as though dispositions interacting with blank can lead to A,B or AB

the key IMO is remembering that these symptoms are generally all human traits, misused and not specific abnormalities of the human mind

a good reference is broader characteristic phenotypes in families of people with mental disorders

daveddd
01-24-16, 03:40 AM
Neurocognitive impairment as a moderator in the development of borderline personality disorder

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16613436
Dev Psychopathol. 2005 Fall;17(4):1173-96.
Neurocognitive impairment as a moderator in the development of borderline personality disorder.
Judd PH1.
Author information
Abstract
Borderline personality disorder (BPD) is characterized by a pervasive instability of interpersonal relationships, affects, self-image, marked impulsivity, dissociation, and paranoia. The cognitive dimension of the disorder has received relatively little attention and is poorly understood. This paper proposes that neurocognitive impairment is a key moderator in the development of BPD and elaborates a possible pathway for the expression of the cognitive domain. Neurocognitive impairment is hypothesized to moderate the relationship between caretaking and insecure disorganized attachment and pathological dissociation in the formation of the disorder contributing to impaired metacognition and a range of cognitive difficulties. The empirical evidence from studies of cognitive processes, brain function, attachment, and dissociation that support this theory are reviewed and discussed. Areas for future research that might verify or refute this theory are suggested.


from your link


if that interests you

this book should be very interesting to you

you can read quite a bit for free

https://books.google.com/books?id=VAhiD6n4IMIC&printsec=frontcover&dq=dissociative+model+of+BPD&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiy4-H5-MHKAhXFvIMKHcpoCyMQ6AEIHTAA#v=onepage&q=dissociative%20model%20of%20BPD&f=false

Donny997
01-24-16, 09:44 PM
Dev Psychopathol. 2005 Fall;17(4):1173-96.
Neurocognitive impairment as a moderator in the development of borderline personality disorder.
Judd PH1.
Author information
Abstract
Borderline personality disorder (BPD) is characterized by a pervasive instability of interpersonal relationships, affects, self-image, marked impulsivity, dissociation, and paranoia. The cognitive dimension of the disorder has received relatively little attention and is poorly understood. This paper proposes that neurocognitive impairment is a key moderator in the development of BPD and elaborates a possible pathway for the expression of the cognitive domain. Neurocognitive impairment is hypothesized to moderate the relationship between caretaking and insecure disorganized attachment and pathological dissociation in the formation of the disorder contributing to impaired metacognition and a range of cognitive difficulties. The empirical evidence from studies of cognitive processes, brain function, attachment, and dissociation that support this theory are reviewed and discussed. Areas for future research that might verify or refute this theory are suggested.


from your link


if that interests you

this book should be very interesting to you

you can read quite a bit for free

https://books.google.com/books?id=VAhiD6n4IMIC&printsec=frontcover&dq=dissociative+model+of+BPD&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiy4-H5-MHKAhXFvIMKHcpoCyMQ6AEIHTAA#v=onepage&q=dissociative%20model%20of%20BPD&f=false

Thx I'll have a look ;)

Donny997
01-25-16, 12:35 AM
Yeah, maybe its something that comes along with ADHD that's more causal, e.g. sensitivity, which is almost essential to create the disorder.

Or ADHD is just one of many coincidences in the genetics of families with BPD.

Either way, to produce BPD you need both an invalidating environment and vulnerable biological equipment that makes that invalidation intolerable to bear or overcome.

So what kind of environment causes BPD? A certain QUALITY of environment that marks the child with a dependent way of relating + an environment of enough QUANTITATIVE severity that causes trauma and thus impairment in ego functioning, producing the "borderline" structural defect, which many theorists like Kernberg argue is less a comprehensive personality designation than a term that denotes a deficit in ego functioning which is seen in ALL the personality disorders. So personality disorders = a qualitative stylistic bent (e.g. narcissistic, dependent, avoidant, etc.) + a big enough quantitative impairment of ego functioning that is more severe than that seen in neurotic characters but less severe or pervasive than in psychotic characters.

The biological vulnerability only interacts in a circular way with the QUALITY of experiences a child endures or receives. The second variable of the environmental impact - its quantitative severity - is an independent variable.

So how could ADHD be more likely to cause a dependent style? As I said in my post above, it could hinder competency development and thus development of a strong sense of SELF.

Check this out....

Personality characteristics of ADHD adults assessed with the Millon Clinical Multiaxial Inventory-II: evidence of four distinct subtypes.

This study compared the personality characteristics of 104 adults diagnosed with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD). Personality features were assessed with the MCMI-II (Millon, 1987). Participants were divided into 4 groups based on the presence of persisting oppositional defiant disorder (ODD) or other comorbid diagnoses (ADHD only, ADHD-comorbid, ADHD-ODD, ADHD-ODD-comorbid). Significant differences between these groups were present for 9 of the 13 MCMI-II personality scales, resulting in 4 modal personality styles. ADHD-only adults evidenced mild histrionic traits, whereas the ADHD-comorbid group was more often avoidant and dependent in personality style. ADHD-ODD adults showed histrionic, narcissistic, aggressive-sadistic, and negativistic traits whereas the ADHD-ODD-comorbid group had a combination of avoidant, narcissistic, antisocial, aggressive-sadistic, negativistic, and self-defeating personality features. Implications for treatment are discussed.

What's crucial to note in the above study is that ODD must be exempt and another co-morbid diagnosis must be evident to produce Dependent personality. I'd venture to say that the co-morbid diagnosis is likely of an internalizing, passive variety since the active, aggressive, externalizing behaviours of ODD is more likely to be seen in other personalities (as shown here). Who knows what that co-morbid diagnosis is....

Here's another interesting vid.. enjoy :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgZy_E3nHRc

daveddd
01-25-16, 10:43 PM
i can't thank your post or i would have

good stuff

Donny997
01-25-16, 11:11 PM
i can't thank your post or i would have

good stuff

Thanks :D... that book you recommended is already in my shopping cart ;).

daveddd
01-25-16, 11:25 PM
Thanks :D... that book you recommended is already in my shopping cart ;).

i bought it a few months back

450 pages and couldn't stop until i finished , read it 3 times, great insight to a biosocial theory

i really believe that personality disorders will be gone soon which would be great stigma wise, i feel people miss out on treatment because of the stigma



most doctors think they are useless as an axis 2 and almost got them out of the DSM 5

i think personality disorders out, neurological phenotypes will take their place(seems like they already do) let this categorical comorbid model die already

even the personality disorder guru millon originated the biosocial model in the 60s

yet its ignored? he cited specific coordination and language disorders to PDs (AVPD,BPD,schizoid that i recall) that still seem valid

Donny997
01-26-16, 10:05 AM
i bought it a few months back

450 pages and couldn't stop until i finished , read it 3 times, great insight to a biosocial theory

i really believe that personality disorders will be gone soon which would be great stigma wise, i feel people miss out on treatment because of the stigma



most doctors think they are useless as an axis 2 and almost got them out of the DSM 5

i think personality disorders out, neurological phenotypes will take their place(seems like they already do) let this categorical comorbid model die already

even the personality disorder guru millon originated the biosocial model in the 60s

yet its ignored? he cited specific coordination and language disorders to PDs (AVPD,BPD,schizoid that i recall) that still seem valid

I do not really follow the categorical model of the DSM. I integrate what I know from character analysis to see if there's overlap with the DSM, which there very much is, but I find the categorical DSM model useless because it simply creates disorders from observable behaviour. Psychoanalytic theory and character analysis begins with etiolgy - what common early experiences lead to certain character structures? What the DSM lacks is causative explanations, which is why I can see most Doctors finding it useless. "Ok you have avoidant personality; we don't know how to treat it much."

Psychoanalytic theory isn't scientific. It's just that - theory. That's why it's not used for much else than in psychoanalysts' offices. But what's interesting is that if you combine psychoanalytic theory and character analysis, ego psychology, object relations, self psychology, with recent and CURRENT evolutions in experimental and developmental research on early infancy (what are the needs of infants? How are these needs expressed? What happens if the environment is inadequate to these needs?) you start to see a remarkable overlap between character theory and the findings of developmental research. That is, certain early experiences lead to certain character structures.

So IMO personality disorders/ types/ styles are useful because they explain a person's past and the needs they didn't get fulfilled adequately and thus indicates the type of treatment, experiences, thinking, and behaviour that that person still needs to develop.

You also can explain a person's overt surface symptoms by tracing its roots to the character structure. Here's an example. Let's say a person has social anxiety. Today's Doctor will prescribe tranquilizers or SSRI's and send the patient off. Today's therapist will provide a short course of cognitive-behaviour therapy and then send the patient off. But there was no in-depth investigation into what is causing the social anxiety.

What if the person with social anxiety was a dependent personality, and they didn't realize that the reason for their low confidence and anxiety is because they're not sure who they are, who they should be presenting themselves as, what they're good at, how they're useful to others and society, and they often get overwhelmed and intimidated in social situations because everyone seems more competent and able-minded.

Now, that dependent personality needs LESS work on quelling the overt symptoms of anxiety and MORE work on changing the underlying structure which is the cause of all symptoms. Dependent personality is a good example of this because they often lack a mature awareness of self and others and why they are the way they are. If they don't come to see their anxiety as stemming from a bigger problem, they'll be satisfied with labelling themselves as just "shy" and "timid". Understanding their underlying structure gives them a blueprint for life-long self-development, something they can slowly and continually work toward, involving getting to know themselves, what interests them, what they're good at, how to be more active and self-directive, more thinking-oriented than feeling-oriented, how they can build skills and understand people and the world around them better, etc.

When people talk about character structure though, I think they're referring to those non-organic aspects of the person that are determined by experience only, which I think accounts for 50% of personality.

The other 50% is genetic, and that is where the neuro-biological model is useful.

With all of this said, if we do get to the point where psychopharmacolgy can re-shape a person's problematic inner structure, then that'll be a great day indeed.

daveddd
02-03-16, 07:12 AM
"So IMO personality disorders/ types/ styles are useful because they explain a person's past and the needs they didn't get fulfilled adequately and thus indicates the type of treatment, experiences, thinking, and behavior that that person still needs to develop. "

i think they are very useful as well, in fact i think they make a syndrome as a whole most accurate and related

what i have an issue with is the separation model , it creates a "good and bad" or "fault and no fault" divide

the thing is , this doesn't even coincide with any popular models of PDs, more of a generic viewpoint

Donny997
02-06-16, 02:01 AM
"So IMO personality disorders/ types/ styles are useful because they explain a person's past and the needs they didn't get fulfilled adequately and thus indicates the type of treatment, experiences, thinking, and behavior that that person still needs to develop. "

i think they are very useful as well, in fact i think they make a syndrome as a whole most accurate and related

what i have an issue with is the separation model , it creates a "good and bad" or "fault and no fault" divide

the thing is , this doesn't even coincide with any popular models of PDs, more of a generic viewpoint

By separation model you mean separation-individuation term I used? Or separating the personalities into neat little boxes apart from each other..

daveddd
02-06-16, 02:12 AM
By separation model you mean separation-individuation term I used? Or separating the personalities into neat little boxes apart from each other..

both neat boxes and their own category of mental illness

borderline is highly heritable and likely a mood regulation disorder (not my opinion, based off joel paris , marsha linehan, millon and others)

by stigmatizing it as a strictly faulty personality your harming them and impeding treatment, by likely calling it ultra rapid bipolar or complex PTSD you can treat them with useless meds, instead of finding meds and treatment for it

I'm fairly certain all mental health disorders are biosocial (vulnerability /stress)

so i like reading from all schools of thought , they are likely all useful

just don't agree with reductionism from either side

Donny997
02-06-16, 02:38 AM
both neat boxes and their own category of mental illness

borderline is highly heritable and likely a mood regulation disorder (not my opinion, based off joel paris , marsha linehan, millon and others)

by stigmatizing it as a strictly faulty personality your harming them and impeding treatment, by likely calling it ultra rapid bipolar or complex PTSD you can treat them with useless meds, instead of finding meds and treatment for it

I'm fairly certain all mental health disorders are biosocial (vulnerability /stress)

so i like reading from all schools of thought , they are likely all useful

just don't agree with reductionism from either side

I think personality is only 50% heritable from the studies done. I'm not reductionistic either. I think analytic theory is inductive, meaning these biological vulnerabilities + this environment will likely result in this adaptation strategy... but not always. My last therapist told me he's always interested when a person with a certain character structure comes in with a different story than the one typical for creating that particular adaptation. All psychoanalytic stuff is essentially theory and so not scientific, but if you read new analytic authors (check out Stephen M. Johnson's Character Styles), you'll see that they discovered that older analytic theories on what causes certain character structures profoundly "fit" with what was going in the developmental research, which is completely scientific, i.e. all developmental researchers do is objectively observe what distinct phases an infant passes through as she/he matures. It's the analysts who try to make sense of that data. So it is all theory but I find it clinically useful in terms of making changes.

I don't think it means fault personality, because nobody has a perfect development and everyone has a character structure. From reading about his early life, it even seems the President of the United States wasn't optimally nurtured, lol. So you can read these theories and think about how it focuses on the negative but there're also positive aspects of each personality type, which is why they were adaptations in the first place. The schizoid is intellectual and objective. Borderlines can be charismatic as they are fantastic at reading people, etc.

It's also true that borderlines are usually sensitive and have mood regulation problems. But it's not guaranteed that the person was born sensitive with highly emotionally labile. In a lot of case histories, the person's sensitivity is sometimes exploited, and so a small initial inclination gets widened and opened until it develops into an extreme.

And as for emotional lability, is it the chemical imbalance that causes it? Like a soft bipolar disorder which most friends and relatives of borderlines will call them? Or is it the internal dynamics and interpersonal styles and inevitably skewed and distorted expectations and thus continual emotional frustrations that chronically "shift" the brain chemistry over a lifetime? Who knows. Theories of causation is only useful for non-pharmacological psychotherapy. Kind of like a top down process where you alter the internal structure and dynamics and viewpoints which will hopefully stop or lessen the severe emotional reactions. Whereas medication is like a bottom-top thing. I agree that both are useful.

P.S. My replies are always WAY longer than I initially expect them to be I swear I just keep typing because I find it interesting! I go on rants

daveddd
02-06-16, 02:56 AM
I think personality is only 50% heritable from the studies done. I'm not reductionistic either. I think analytic theory is inductive, meaning these biological vulnerabilities + this environment will likely result in this adaptation strategy... but not always. My last therapist told me he's always interested when a person with a certain character structure comes in with a different story than the one typical for creating that particular adaptation. All psychoanalytic stuff is essentially theory and so not scientific, but if you read new analytic authors (check out Stephen M. Johnson's Character Styles), you'll see that they discovered that older analytic theories on what causes certain character structures profoundly "fit" with what was going in the developmental research, which is completely scientific, i.e. all developmental researchers do is objectively observe what distinct phases an infant passes through as she/he matures. It's the analysts who try to make sense of that data. So it is all theory but I find it clinically useful in terms of making changes.

I don't think it means fault personality, because nobody has a perfect development and everyone has a character structure. From reading about his early life, it even seems the President of the United States wasn't optimally nurtured, lol. So you can read these theories and think about how it focuses on the negative but there're also positive aspects of each personality type, which is why they were adaptations in the first place. The schizoid is intellectual and objective. Borderlines can be charismatic as they are fantastic at reading people, etc.

It's also true that borderlines are usually sensitive and have mood regulation problems. But it's not guaranteed that the person was born sensitive with highly emotionally labile. In a lot of case histories, the person's sensitivity is sometimes exploited, and so a small initial inclination gets widened and opened until it develops into an extreme.

And as for emotional lability, is it the chemical imbalance that causes it? Like a soft bipolar disorder which most friends and relatives of borderlines will call them? Or is it the internal dynamics and interpersonal styles and inevitably skewed and distorted expectations and thus continual emotional frustrations that chronically "shift" the brain chemistry over a lifetime? Who knows. Theories of causation is only useful for non-pharmacological psychotherapy. Kind of like a top down process where you alter the internal structure and dynamics and viewpoints which will hopefully stop or lessen the severe emotional reactions. Whereas medication is like a bottom-top thing. I agree that both are useful.

P.S. My replies are always WAY longer than I initially expect them to be I swear I just keep typing because I find it interesting! I go on rants

yes, 50% , 80% depends who's doing the study

just saw one that said 30% in adult ADHD so who knows

doubt there is any one cause to any mental illness

bought and read this yesterday "treatment of borderline personality disorder" by joel paris

https://books.google.com/books?id=X5sFfbmpCjUC&printsec=frontcover&dq=joel+paris&hl=en&sa=X&output=reader&pg=GBS.PA231.w.1.2.0


he mentions childhood abuse is being shown to be far less of a cause in PDs then they say

like you said, what was popular at them

low black bile, 1000 years ago, infant dyads, sexual abuse, and now the chemical imbalance

borderline may meant to be a fault, but its viewed by a lot of clinicians like that

there is a huge stigma, here they've had threads on how terrible they are

when most aren't the abusive type

my sister has it and it seems like 80% of the members here "coincidentally " have an immediate family with it

good points , interesting thread

if i had something it would be avoidant PD

especially millons theory of blocking out emotions, and thought content that can cause them and using language to wall yourself off

i like his stuff, he never sites a specific cause but says its likely thousands of different ones

Donny997
02-06-16, 04:13 AM
I think I have avoidant features, but my therapist insists I'm mostly what he terms symbiotic (borderline), and secondarily narcissistic. This stuff is interesting when you throw in ADD, because it's tough to parcel out if, say, a person's avoidance is due to internal dynamics, or because of cognitive overload, communication problems, etc. I think my ADD causes me to be behaviourally avoidant.

I read Joel Paris and I liked his ideas. What I got out of it was, people are born with a certain disposition and under any kind of stress, that person will react in a way that's suitable to their disposition, i.e. an avoidant will avoid because it's in his nature, regardless of what was the "type" of trauma or stress.

But it glosses over the fact that certain stresses at certain stages in life are dealt with differently because of the person's available resources. Some defences, like internal withdrawal, is a primitive way to handle stress and seems akin to an infant whose only method of defence is to retreat within behind a now frozen-with-fear exterior, since other methods of dealing such as walking away, fighting back, or seeking the comfort of friends is impossible. (I'm referring to severe schizoid disorders).

So I didn't get part of it.

So you think it's all really just biology?

I don't like the terms used. Schizoid is so bad and not representative of those personalities since it implies a relation to schizophrenia and brings unnecessary stigma. Borderline is awful as well.

Fuzzy12
02-06-16, 04:48 AM
Fascinating conversation donny and dave!!!

daveddd
02-06-16, 04:59 AM
I think I have avoidant features, but my therapist insists I'm mostly what he terms symbiotic (borderline), and secondarily narcissistic. This stuff is interesting when you throw in ADD, because it's tough to parcel out if, say, a person's avoidance is due to internal dynamics, or because of cognitive overload, communication problems, etc. I think my ADD causes me to be behaviourally avoidant.

I read Joel Paris and I liked his ideas. What I got out of it was, people are born with a certain disposition and under any kind of stress, that person will react in a way that's suitable to their disposition, i.e. an avoidant will avoid because it's in his nature, regardless of what was the "type" of trauma or stress.

But it glosses over the fact that certain stresses at certain stages in life are dealt with differently because of the person's available resources. Some defences, like internal withdrawal, is a primitive way to handle stress and seems akin to an infant whose only method of defence is to retreat within behind a now frozen-with-fear exterior, since other methods of dealing such as walking away, fighting back, or seeking the comfort of friends is impossible. (I'm referring to severe schizoid disorders).

So I didn't get part of it.

So you think it's all really just biology?

I don't like the terms used. Schizoid is so bad and not representative of those personalities since it implies a relation to schizophrenia and brings unnecessary stigma. Borderline is awful as well.

no, i don't think its just biology

i think temperament is one vulnerability

but a snowball through life, stress on stress, poorly regulated

millón nails AVPD with internalizing shame of social awkwardness, because of hyperactivity around puberty as the nail in the coffin

same time my affect went flat, just like he says



"symbiotic (borderline), and secondarily narcissistic."

chronic visceral shame, no imagery or verbalizations for emotion, high social anxiety?

Donny997
02-06-16, 10:07 AM
no, i don't think its just biology

i think temperament is one vulnerability

but a snowball through life, stress on stress, poorly regulated

millón nails AVPD with internalizing shame of social awkwardness, because of hyperactivity around puberty as the nail in the coffin

same time my affect went flat, just like he says



"symbiotic (borderline), and secondarily narcissistic."

chronic visceral shame, no imagery or verbalizations for emotion, high social anxiety?

Shame yes, but guilt more so. Guilty for being successful. Guilty for being confident and strong, etc. I can verbalize emotion well. I've always worn my heart on my sleeve. I think that's more borderline/ dependent than avoidant. High social anxiety yes.

The schizoid/ avoidant that I go by is probably more more serious than an adolescent internalizing shame. It's more the result of early life coldness, hostility, and weak attachment behaviour.

Social anxiety that comes later in life because of ADD or anything else isn't true avoidant personality IMO. Maybe pseudo-avoidance?

daveddd
02-06-16, 10:57 AM
Social anxiety that comes later in life because of ADD or anything else isn't true avoidant personality IMO. Maybe pseudo-avoidance?


not sure what you're basing this off of

social anxiety isn't avoidant PD no matter when not comes along , social anxiety is a fear of social situations

there is no age of onset requirements for PDs, in fact the opposite, you're supposed to wait until adulthood

i don't limit myself to infant attachment behavior for cause , in fact I'm not sure it causes anything, millons model of AVPD is very goods, its identical for me, you should check it out
__________________

Donny997
02-06-16, 11:33 AM
It's possible that upbringing will be proven in the future to be as non-causitive as black bile or phrenological bumps on the head. But I don't know. I think they're pretty close to having closure on understanding the developmental, ego mechanistic, internalized object relational, and self-psychological roles of the major personality disorders, which again only accounts for part of the picture anyway.

But these developmental causations, e.g. inadequate separation-individuation are not concrete items that can be used in a study to determine correlation between that and, say, BPD. Sexual incest is a concrete incident; it happened or didn't happen. But what about something more intangible, like psychic incest, i.e. violations of the boundaries of a person's mind? You can't measure something like that in a study because it isn't black or white, and most people can't articulate that anyway, and when it happens it does so on a subconscious level where thousands of little nuanced things are happening per second, undetected by either party.

People who were subtly emotionally abused don't know they were abused. And neither will the clinician if she's only looking for concrete indicators like sexual abuse, neurochemistry, or a particular gene. So yeah maybe sexual incest or severe trauma isn't always the case in BPD (but I've read many studies that indicate that), but some form of physic incest surely is, which can "symbolize" sexual abuse.

BTW I love reading about chemical and biological indicators of personalty and I think this area will make the most sense for TREATMENT, as understanding one's past is more for intellectual curiosity and the peace of mind one gets from putting all the pieces together.

Donny997
02-06-16, 11:47 AM
Social anxiety that comes later in life because of ADD or anything else isn't true avoidant personality IMO. Maybe pseudo-avoidance?


not sure what you're basing this off of

social anxiety isn't avoidant PD no matter when not comes along , social anxiety is a fear of social situations

there is no age of onset requirements for PDs, in fact the opposite, you're supposed to wait until adulthood

i don't limit myself to infant attachment behavior for cause , in fact I'm not sure it causes anything, millons model of AVPD is very goods, its identical for me, you should check it out
__________________

I did read Millon and I'm pretty sure he says early hostility and deprecation.

Donny997
02-06-16, 12:03 PM
Social anxiety that comes later in life because of ADD or anything else isn't true avoidant personality IMO. Maybe pseudo-avoidance?


not sure what you're basing this off of

social anxiety isn't avoidant PD no matter when not comes along , social anxiety is a fear of social situations
__________________

Social phobia is more fear, social anxiety is anxiety when socializing. Anxiety in social situations is definitional of avoidant PD.

daveddd
02-06-16, 12:26 PM
I did read Millon and I'm pretty sure he says early hostility and deprecation.

he may have, i believe he has several types

the one i fit is the hypersensitive type

sensitivity to the environment and emotions from birth

avoids emotional content by thought blocking of mental imagery (subconsciously )

alexthymic characteristics

extreme interpersonal sensitivity

chronic shame



he gets me perfect in that one

daveddd
02-06-16, 12:30 PM
Social phobia is more fear, social anxiety is anxiety when socializing. Anxiety in social situations is definitional of avoidant PD.

i don't think its definitional

they are confused by many who go off the DSM diagnosis

interpersonal sensitivity , and some of things i listed above are the difference between anxiety when in social situations and aVPD

according to some

some say avoidant isn't even a valid diagnoses

and its pretty much an inhibited borderline

Donny997
02-06-16, 04:02 PM
he may have, i believe he has several types

the one i fit is the hypersensitive type

sensitivity to the environment and emotions from birth

avoids emotional content by thought blocking of mental imagery (subconsciously )

alexthymic characteristics

extreme interpersonal sensitivity

chronic shame



he gets me perfect in that one

What does he mean by the thought blocking? I never fully understood that one.

Donny997
02-06-16, 04:06 PM
i don't think its definitional

they are confused by many who go off the DSM diagnosis

interpersonal sensitivity , and some of things i listed above are the difference between anxiety when in social situations and aVPD

according to some

some say avoidant isn't even a valid diagnoses

and its pretty much an inhibited borderline

It can get pretty confusing. Borderlines can be shy, introverted, and highly sensitive by nature. There's a book called the quiet borderline. I think the distinction is what is causing the pathology. For borderlines it's identity diffusion; for avoidant's it's wanting to be apart of the group but unable to bring oneself to do so.

I find it confusing because sometimes I read descriptions of avoidants who sound like high-level schizoids in the same way a high level borderline would sound, and then I read other descriptions that make it seem like any highly sensitive person who's also introverted can be considered one. I go by a model that characterizes the schizoid as a borderline condition, and the avoidant as healthier, more neurotic manifestation (want to be social but fear it) of a fundamentally schizoid style.

daveddd
02-06-16, 05:01 PM
What does he mean by the thought blocking? I never fully understood that one.

I'm fairly certain it means lacking spontaneous imagination

so unless I'm purposely thinking of something, nothing is in my mind

daveddd
02-06-16, 05:04 PM
It can get pretty confusing. Borderlines can be shy, introverted, and highly sensitive by nature. There's a book called the quiet borderline. I think the distinction is what is causing the pathology. For borderlines it's identity diffusion; for avoidant's it's wanting to be apart of the group but unable to bring oneself to do so.

I find it confusing because sometimes I read descriptions of avoidants who sound like high-level schizoids in the same way a high level borderline would sound, and then I read other descriptions that make it seem like any highly sensitive person who's also introverted can be considered one. I go by a model that characterizes the schizoid as a borderline condition, and the avoidant as healthier, more neurotic manifestation (want to be social but fear it) of a fundamentally schizoid style.


"I go by a model that characterizes the schizoid as a borderline condition, "

any specific one?

like mastersons disorder of the self?

Fortune
02-06-16, 05:40 PM
The problem with schizoid and schizophrenia is the stigma. The problem is not that people with schizoid PD are being unfairly stigmatized. The problem is that everyone is.

Donny997
02-06-16, 05:51 PM
"I go by a model that characterizes the schizoid as a borderline condition, "

any specific one?

like mastersons disorder of the self?

If I could recommend one book it's Stephen M. Johnson's Character Styles, which comprises 7 main character types. He's also written books dealing with schizoid and oral dynamics, narcissism, and symbiotic.

Donny997
02-06-16, 05:52 PM
And Kernberg

Donny997
02-06-16, 05:55 PM
I'm fairly certain it means lacking spontaneous imagination

so unless I'm purposely thinking of something, nothing is in my mind

I have that too. Blank mind. Dissociation for me

BellaVita
02-06-16, 07:27 PM
Shame yes, but guilt more so. Guilty for being successful. Guilty for being confident and strong, etc. I can verbalize emotion well. I've always worn my heart on my sleeve. I think that's more borderline/ dependent than avoidant. High social anxiety yes.

The schizoid/ avoidant that I go by is probably more more serious than an adolescent internalizing shame. It's more the result of early life coldness, hostility, and weak attachment behaviour.

Social anxiety that comes later in life because of ADD or anything else isn't true avoidant personality IMO. Maybe pseudo-avoidance?

Interesting that you say you wear your heart on your sleeve.

My BPD ex said that time and time again.

He also often had this child-like innocence about him.

It's interesting that Borderline and trauma might not really go hand-in-hand as much as previously thought.

My BPD ex definitely had horrific abuse done to him, though.

BellaVita
02-06-16, 07:30 PM
Another interesting thing I've heard Borderlines say is that they feel "empty."

My BPD ex would say that sometimes.

Donny997
02-06-16, 09:48 PM
Another interesting thing I've heard Borderlines say is that they feel "empty."

My BPD ex would say that sometimes.

Yup. I think that emptiness is a lack of a strong sense of self, at least for me. You take interest in nothing. Have no idea how to act around others consistently, little idea what you're good at, etc.

BellaVita
02-06-16, 11:18 PM
Yup. I think that emptiness is a lack of a strong sense of self, at least for me. You take interest in nothing. Have no idea how to act around others consistently, little idea what you're good at, etc.

I'm sorry you have that. :( I thank you for your insight.

daveddd
02-07-16, 09:38 AM
I have that too. Blank mind. Dissociation for me

yea, it probably has several different names

i feel i fit dissociated too, not the out of body thing

just like nothing is real, not distorted, but i just feel nothing i do is real, my successes are a fraud and so on

the blank mind has also been thought of as a regression to primitive thinking

you become completely externally oriented , resorting to instinctual drives in freudian terms

daveddd
02-07-16, 09:43 AM
i want to say kernberg referred to it as autistic thinking

which is interesting, because in linehans accounts of her borderline patients childhoods

she mentions a lot of behaviors like flapping, rocking, head banging all autistic stims

not that everyone with BPD is autistic or the opposite

but i wonder if a similar deficit to autism can also aid in a pathway to BPD

Donny997
02-07-16, 12:05 PM
i want to say kernberg referred to it as autistic thinking

which is interesting, because in linehans accounts of her borderline patients childhoods

she mentions a lot of behaviors like flapping, rocking, head banging all autistic stims

not that everyone with BPD is autistic or the opposite

but i wonder if a similar deficit to autism can also aid in a pathway to BPD

That would make sense because Kernberg saw borderline as primarily an ego defect, a personality organized around primitive defences, so stimming behaviours wouldn't be a surprise.

I have a hard time differentiating between blank mind experiences and typical mild dissociation. I don't have a dissociation disorder, but I'm very daydreamy and in my head a lot. Not paying attention to surroundings. Kind of going through the motions every day.

Its a defence against anxiety. But more than that, I think it's related to the lack of real self. The real self is in hiding so experiences and impressions can't impact the person in the same way. So life sometimes become sort of a fog, a veil to be lived behind. Now I wonder if there are neurobiological theories behind dissociation. Maybe it could be inherited. I wonder what neurotransmitters might be affected. But it makes intuitive sense to me that dissociation is a natural outgrowth of living with a false self adaptation. I know all PD's undergo splitting and thus have a false self, but it's even more primary and pronounced in the borderline as self-development is (analytic theory) the central problem - aside from all the affect regulation and impulse control stuff.

(That brings me to another point I should clarify. I'm not viewing BPD in terms of the traits related to supposed ego defect, like affect dysregulation, etc., because I think that's a problem with all personality disorders which are at the borderline level. My affect dysregulation is more related to the dependent/ avoidant type who feels dysphoric easily but doesn't act it out. If anyone's interested I can post the cross-dimensional chart from a lecture of one of the writers I mentioned earlier. It outlines the spectrum of BPD and other disorders well.)

daveddd
02-07-16, 02:43 PM
yea that would be a good chart

how is the well burin? , I've read it can trigger psychosis easily in borderline

"who feels dysphoric easily but doesn't act it out"

yea I've been in a steady dysphoric state since 12-13 years old, I'm 35 now

no prescribed meds have helped , opiates help, i can feel , i enjoy talking to people , yet i also realize its not possible to sustain that on current opiate meds

daveddd
02-07-16, 03:30 PM
have you read this symptom description by kernberg

its very good , its only a couple pages,and i linked it right to the page with key word searches

from 'borderline conditions and pathological narcissism' -Otto F. Kernberg


https://books.google.com/books?id=6ybTKQhq3tEC&pg=PA9&dq=otto+kernberg+borderline+free+floating+anxiety&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwin2MPhsObKAhVI5SYKHTTaBZcQ6AEIIjAB#v=on epage&q=otto%20kernberg%20borderline%20free%20floating%2 0anxiety&f=false

Donny997
02-07-16, 03:56 PM
yea that would be a good chart

how is the well burin? , I've read it can trigger psychosis easily in borderline

"who feels dysphoric easily but doesn't act it out"

yea I've been in a steady dysphoric state since 12-13 years old, I'm 35 now

no prescribed meds have helped , opiates help, i can feel , i enjoy talking to people , yet i also realize its not possible to sustain that on current opiate meds

Wellbutrin has been a good adjunct to my adderall. I have to increase the dose soon though because the fatigue is still there. Especially early mornings. The thing is, I'm like a neurotic borderline, so I don't and have never had close to psychotic symptoms.

daveddd
02-07-16, 03:58 PM
Wellbutrin has been a good adjunct to my adderall. I have to increase the dose soon though because the fatigue is still there. Especially early mornings. The thing is, I'm like a neurotic borderline, so I don't and have never had close to psychotic symptoms.

thats likely my sisters case too, but she has common somatic symptoms too

wellbutrin triggered a classic euphoric mania in me

Donny997
02-07-16, 04:00 PM
have you read this symptom description by kernberg

its very good , its only a couple pages,and i linked it right to the page with key word searches

from 'borderline conditions and pathological narcissism' -Otto F. Kernberg


https://books.google.com/books?id=6ybTKQhq3tEC&pg=PA9&dq=otto+kernberg+borderline+free+floating+anxiety&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwin2MPhsObKAhVI5SYKHTTaBZcQ6AEIIjAB#v=on epage&q=otto%20kernberg%20borderline%20free%20floating%2 0anxiety&f=false

I have that book on my shelf but haven't read it yet :). Yeah see I only relate to the neurotic symptoms there.

Donny997
02-07-16, 04:01 PM
thats likely my sisters case too, but she has common somatic symptoms too

wellbutrin triggered a classic euphoric mania in me

That's not good. I'm too dead to feel mania lol. My inattentive ADD/ SCT makes me hypoactive. Are you ADD? If so, what type?

Donny997
02-07-16, 04:04 PM
I have that book on my shelf but haven't read it yet :). Yeah see I only relate to the neurotic symptoms there.

I will also add... I've spent a lot of time reading personality psychology trying to figure out my own type.. which is more borderline than neurotic trait. I'm probably a high-level borderline, but some people think that's a contradiction in terms as borderline as a term is only meaningful in that it hovers between psychosis and neurosis. There's a book called the psychotherapy of the submerged ego that I found really, really good. It describes me to a T. In it they mention how submerged persons are related to borderline, but that the borderline ego is "split" as opposed to "submerged" (hidden/ undeveloped/ hiding who you are). So submergence is more a character neurosis I think.

BellaVita
02-07-16, 08:18 PM
Wellbutrin has been a good adjunct to my adderall. I have to increase the dose soon though because the fatigue is still there. Especially early mornings. The thing is, I'm like a neurotic borderline, so I don't and have never had close to psychotic symptoms.

When my BPD ex went cold turkey off of his antidepressants, might have been Wellbutrin, he went into a rage and had to be hospitalized.

It was scary, and I could tell it was really painful for him.

During the rage he gave me a rose he had carved and painted for me.(while he was shaking and looked angry) I could tell he was trying so hard. But then he left the scene fast and went running around looking very angry, yelling at teachers, threatening that he would run away (well, he did sort of end up running away), breaking things. He seemed also very "out of it" while it happened. Like, I'm not sure how to describe it.

I'm not sure why the dean thought it was okay for him to go off of his medication cold turkey, but I guess they didn't know much and thought it was okay.

Fortune
02-07-16, 08:33 PM
If it helps, the "borderline between neurosis and psychosis" definition is pretty old and definitely outdated. It doesn't mean that these days.

daveddd
02-07-16, 09:15 PM
If it helps, the "borderline between neurosis and psychosis" definition is pretty old and definitely outdated. It doesn't mean that these days.

yea

there is still the key feature that linehan says is the hallmark of borderline

auditory hallucinations and paranoia when under stress , but with insight

i think that is the psychosis still noted in BPD, and that can be triggered

daveddd
02-07-16, 09:26 PM
That's not good. I'm too dead to feel mania lol. My inattentive ADD/ SCT makes me hypoactive. Are you ADD? If so, what type?

i missed this somehow

very much

combined and still have classic hyperactivity

Fortune
02-07-16, 09:51 PM
yea

there is still the key feature that linehan says is the hallmark of borderline

auditory hallucinations and paranoia when under stress , but with insight

i think that is the psychosis still noted in BPD, and that can be triggered

There's a difference between noting psychosis in BPD and defining borderline as the borderline between psychosis and neurosis. These are two separate things.

Donny997
02-07-16, 11:20 PM
There's a difference between noting psychosis in BPD and defining borderline as the borderline between psychosis and neurosis. These are two separate things.

To me it seems like the same thing just stated differently. BPDers are not wholly neurotic nor are they wholly psychotic, they show symptoms of both. I think that's partly why there's trouble classifying BPD; sometimes they function good albeit neurotically and sometimes they dip into psychotic behaviour.. and then back again kust as fast

Fortune
02-07-16, 11:24 PM
I don't really agree that it's the same thing stated differently. It's an 80 or so year old conception of BPD that's been outdated by modern understandings. Psychosis exists in BPD, but it is not a defining symptom of the disorder nor is it among the most important.

Donny997
02-07-16, 11:31 PM
I don't really agree that it's the same thing stated differently. It's an 80 or so year old conception of BPD that's been outdated by modern understandings. Psychosis exists in BPD, but it is not a defining symptom of the disorder nor is it among the most important.

W.e I'm just sharing what I know I'm not an expert and obviously I'm excluding a bunch of other stuff. I'm a big picture thinker I like to, snap shots of core issues helps me understand psych. jargon better. Concrete symptom checklists that change every DSM edition are important but I don't pay as much attention to them.

Donny997
02-07-16, 11:37 PM
i missed this somehow

very much

combined and still have classic hyperactivity

Do stims help at least?

Donny997
02-07-16, 11:45 PM
yea

there is still the key feature that linehan says is the hallmark of borderline

auditory hallucinations and paranoia when under stress , but with insight

i think that is the psychosis still noted in BPD, and that can be triggered

So I was watching this dude's youtube channel and he was perfectly normal, maybe insecure but endearing. Then over the years he seemed to decompensate and started posting videos about God, his new found religious beliefs, and I was like ok w.e.he changing it up lol. Then started casually mentioning how God was telling him things, all the while seeming otherwise normal and not crazy. Amd then he finally admits the voices in his head weren't God afterall and then seemed completely fine. So I guess you wouldn't call that schizo but borderline?

Donny997
02-07-16, 11:52 PM
When my BPD ex went cold turkey off of his antidepressants, might have been Wellbutrin, he went into a rage and had to be hospitalized.

It was scary, and I could tell it was really painful for him.

During the rage he gave me a rose he had carved and painted for me.(while he was shaking and looked angry) I could tell he was trying so hard. But then he left the scene fast and went running around looking very angry, yelling at teachers, threatening that he would run away (well, he did sort of end up running away), breaking things. He seemed also very "out of it" while it happened. Like, I'm not sure how to describe it.

I'm not sure why the dean thought it was okay for him to go off of his medication cold turkey, but I guess they didn't know much and thought it was okay.

That's really intense!!

Speaking of the rose thing, borderlines are definitely romantics!! I think I read somewhere that casanova was a borderline. THE original don Jaun lol. I always thought he must've just been a charming narcs!!

BellaVita
02-08-16, 12:52 AM
That's really intense!!

Speaking of the rose thing, borderlines are definitely romantics!! I think I read somewhere that casanova was a borderline. THE original don Jaun lol. I always thought he must've just been a charming narcs!!

Yep, he sure was a romantic. I didn't know that it had to do with Borderline.

I don't know much about Casanova, but that is interesting to know anyway. :)

Fortune
02-08-16, 04:14 AM
W.e I'm just sharing what I know I'm not an expert and obviously I'm excluding a bunch of other stuff. I'm a big picture thinker I like to, snap shots of core issues helps me understand psych. jargon better. Concrete symptom checklists that change every DSM edition are important but I don't pay as much attention to them.

I'm not referring to DSM checklists, but okay. I'm referring to what I've read about personality disorders in books about them.

Donny997
02-08-16, 03:10 PM
I'm not referring to DSM checklists, but okay. I'm referring to what I've read about personality disorders in books about them.

Okay how do they define it today? :)

daveddd
02-13-16, 10:20 AM
Do stims help at least?

here and there

with facing the day in general

gain tolerance quick though

daveddd
02-13-16, 11:49 AM
with the connection between ADHD and BPD becoming more apparent i thought this study was useful

pretty much reviews every med and borderline

a lot of positives for specific issues

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3811092/

Donny997
02-15-16, 11:13 PM
I tried to post the chart I mentioned earlier. Too little space. Ill try to post sometime soon.

Thanks Dave for the continued info ^

Donny997
02-20-16, 12:57 AM
To risk being overly simplistic, I think borderlines have two main problems that stand out: affective instability and identity diffusion. Im terms of what neurochemicals potentially help modulate these two things, serotonin and dopamine come to mind. Serotonin transmission is often defective in borderlines and other impulsive personalities leading to affective instability. SSRI's help smooth out the peaks and valleys here. It helps calm the turbulent emotions, but what's needed next for further improvement is to shift from a primarily feeling-orientation to a thinking one, which facilitates the second core problem (lack of identity). Identity is formed as we move from the pleasure principle to the reality principle, from feeling to thinking, from passion to reason. Where schizoids and avoidants need more feeling to connect to their sense of themselves, borderlines need less feeling and more thinking. More mature lifeviews and expectations, not giving into every whim, not letting changing feelings determine behaviour. Also "thinking" develops domains of knowledge, facilitating ccompetence. Even more simply, I'd say to develop an identity one has to "think" and introspect: about values, about fields of interest, etc. The personalities with the strongest sense of self, narcs and OCDPs, are heavily thinking oriented.

Feeling is the realm of childhood vulnerability, thinkikg is the realm of adult competence. So maybe stimulant medication would also help in not only stabilize emotions but also to get on the path of greater self-definition.

Me personally, serotonin and dopamine go a loooong way for me lol

Mrs.melon
10-30-16, 11:23 AM
Hi, there. First of all thank you for sharing it had been very insightful to read this. I've had my struggles with depression since early child hood which set into anxiety and panic attacks and noticed I was always a bit different over the years, I felt alone and wondered what was wrong with me, why I struggled so much more than my peers or family members. I had a very disfunctional childhood and was also sexually abused from a young age and physically assaulted. I've seen many psychologists over the years as it was either commit suicide or do something about it, I was very sad and utterly alone in my own despair and had no support network and still don't. Until I was 21 I saw a psychologist that changed my life, he said he was not going too and didn't want to diagnose me with bpd but, that he wanted me to go to a book shop and read up on the topic. I picked up a work book on bpd and dbt and felt for the first time in my life that id been set free that I could finally understand myself and what was happening to me. And my journey began to understanding, self work and self healing. The reason that I am writing is because, over the years I have attracted many partners or even boys who liked me from a young age with adhd and was wondering why do I keep attracting boyfriends with this disorder- I looked on google and just typed in bpd adhd relationships and came across this artical. So you are not alone on this at all. I think we attract people into our lives that are on the same wave length or vibration, or just similar to us, what ever you want to call it. My boyfriend and I currently- I have bpd and he has adhd both exhibit impulsive behaviours and self esteem issues- these are the similarities that I have noticed and there may be more. So thank you for sharing! It's been very helpful and insightful. I think we are both pretty intelligent people to be able to overcome our challenges this life has given us and to notice the people we've attracted into our lives and the similarities between us and our disorders. Thank you.