View Full Version : Can PLAY Diminish ADHD and Facilitate the Construction of the Social Brain?


mildadhd
11-26-13, 02:39 AM
Abstract
The diagnosis of attention deficit hyperactivity disorders (ADHD) has been increasing at an alarming rate, paralleled by the prescription of highly effective psychostimulants whose developmental effects on growing brains remain inadequately characterized. One reason for the increasing incidence of ADHD may be the diminishing availability of opportunities for pre-school children to engage in natural self-generated social play. Pre-clinical work indicates that play can facilitate behavioral inhibition in growing animals, while psychostimulants reduce playfulness. The idea that intensive social play interventions, throughout early childhood, may alleviate ADHD symptoms remains to be evaluated. As an alternative to the use of play-reducing psychostimulants, society could establish play “sanctuaries” for at-risk children in order to facilitate frontal lobe maturation and the healthy development of pro-social minds.

Can PLAY Diminish ADHD and Facilitate the Construction of the Social Brain? (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2242642/)





i!i

mildadhd
11-26-13, 02:44 AM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2242642/bin/ccap16_2p057f1.jpg






i!i

Corina86
11-26-13, 08:35 AM
Whilst I agree all children should play since it's extremely beneficial for all aspects of their physical and mental health, the article doesn't really focus on the main aspects of ADHD, which are lack of attention and concentration problems, but just social inhibitions. Personally, I played as much as other children in my neighborhood and school, but I still have all symptoms of ADHD-PI. Also, certain issues may impair a child's social interaction even at a very early age. Again, I use myself as an example: having a lousy pronunciation of words and lacking good motor coordination, speed and agility, I was a lot worse than all other kids at games, something which damaged my self-esteem from the very first years of childhood.

someothertime
11-26-13, 09:08 AM
I need to shake their hand...

Also, certain issues may impair a child's social interaction even at a very early age.

http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/187/2/103.long
A major challenge arising from the success of genetic research is to identify the neurocognitive processes that mediate genetic influences on ADHD.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1996918?dopt=Abstract&report=abstract
The stability of the relationship between poverty and depression warrants the attention of caregivers and policymakers and raises new questions about strategies for the study of causal sequences.

http://www.pmbogusz.net/publications/12110466.pdf
As time passes, the animal habituates to the environment

Intervene early with tools and positive outlet so the loops aren't solidified within. Touche!

Corina86
11-26-13, 09:34 AM
True! But this a whole different approach to just letting the kids play, which is what the first article that your posted suggested.

Amtram
11-26-13, 10:34 AM
I fully appreciate Panksepp's research on play, and have often thought that it's kind of sad that there's a point in our lives at which, for example, we stop running around just for the fun of it, and need to have a purpose and a direction before we start running. However, I think that he's missing some of the additional factors involved in the social impairments to play that are touched on by the first article someothertime linked. That's really the only objection I have to this article (which looks like a meta-analysis being used to support a hypothesis, so its bias is more apparent than in some other meta-analyses.)

Some way down, Panksepp states:

I am not questioning the genetically-based temperamental variability that contributes to the diagnosis of ADHD, and the high efficacy of psychostimulants in reducing impulsive behavior (Faraone, et al., 2006). These are well-established facts. I simply assert that we have, at our fingertips, better social-emotional, maturation-promoting tools to address such problems than are currently widely used to promote childhood development at home or within school systems. At a societal level, we have yet to institutionalize the power of PLAY to promote desirable mind maturation.

This is an assertion without supporting evidence that immediately follows an admission of the existence of evidence-supported findings. Scientifically, not quite kosher. He then continues:

It is a common claim, scientifically undocumented, that following onset of psychostimulant medications, ADHD children become less playful, more adult-like. Such changes are reasonable since psychostimulants promote neo-cortical arousal, and the neocortex inhibits all primary-process emotional urges (Liotti & Panksepp, 2004 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2242642/#b19-ccap16_2p057)). Primal playful urges are a subcortical birthright of animals (Panksepp, et al., 1994).

Are ADHD kids generally more playful than typicals? So far it has been noted that pre-schooler with ADHD, during free play periods, engage in less play activity than controls and that ADHD children engage in less social, more solitary play than typical children (Hubbard & Newcomb, 1991 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2242642/#b16-ccap16_2p057)). Such findings are not consistent with the idea that untreated ADHD kids have elevated play urges, However, since social-learning occurs rapidly in play, these results may indicate that the social-overtures of ADHD type children have been too rough or primitive – too “rude” - leading normal kids to avoid play with ADHD-type children.

Have ADHD children received less social play in childhood? This has never been documented. But what if it turned out that a substantial percentage of ADHD kids currently receiving psychostimulants are simply normal kids who have excessive, unsatisfied desires to play, and ADHD symptoms would diminish with play supplementation? In our informal efforts to evaluate this, we (at the Memorial Foundation for Lost Children in Bowling Green, Ohio) routinely counseled fathers in families with young ADHD children to expend special effort to have daily periods of happy rough-and-tumble play with their children. Their feedback was consistently that such daily activities were beneficial.


My bold. Unfortunately, at this point, it becomes clear that a distressing amount of information here is undocumented, unscientific, and even self-contradictory. If there is documented, scientific evidence that children with ADHD are less playful and/or engaged in solitary play before they are ever medicated, how can that possibly lend support to the idea that psychostimulant medications negatively affect the ability of children with ADHD to play? If the social aspect of play is vital, but ADHD children have been excluded by their peers from social play because of their behavior, how does it benefit them to try to push them into more social play?


I'm not going to take apart the whole paper, but I did read it. . .and it's incredibly poorly constructed. Panksepp will recount a piece of evidence and follow it with a "What If. . ." proposition that frequently either contradicts the cited paper, or extends the findings to ADHD, which the cited research didn't cover. He makes an error that a scientist never should, and that is stating that he has found something in rats, so it's likely to be the same in humans. Small mammals are excellent for making preliminary findings and proof of concept, but it is absolutely wrong to assume that something that works in animals will work in humans - much less work identically in humans.


The sheer number of question marks alone in this paper are troublesome. Panksepp's ideas could be put to good use if he were not trying to skip past all the intermediate research that would be needed to test the validity of all the suppositions in this article.


After reading it, and reading the British Journal of Psychiatry article, and taking into account all the other research into ADHD of which I'm aware, I'm actually somewhat less supportive of Panksepp than I was before. He has some wonderfully appealing ideas, but if he makes statements like these without having done the work that would support them, it seriously weakens his position.


To my mind, play could indeed be put to use in helping ADHD children, but not for the reasons he supposes, or in the way he's found it to work in rats. Based on what we actually know about some of the reasons children with ADHD don't play the same way as most other children, it actually would make sense to engage them in more organized social play, rather than the free play he advocates. In his very own article, he makes the point that in free play, other children deliberately exclude those with ADHD, because they have perceptual differences that impair free play with others.


Many parents of children with ADHD have found that organized play has been one of the most beneficial activities for them - the rules, the hierarchy, the strategy, the desired outcome, etc., are all set out in advance. Their children have a better understanding of what do to, so they make fewer mistakes. They have their place in the group, which encourages socialization. Both process and goal are known to them, making it easier to focus during the activity.


In addition, while Panksepp doesn't demonize solitary play in this paper, solitary play has benefits as well, and a child with ADHD may benefit from being allowed as much solitary play as he/she needs, as long as it's part of a well-rounded experience that includes social interactions.

I'm afraid that if Panksepp wants to demonstrate his hypothesis that play (or PLAY) could diminish ADHD symptoms, he will have to provide a much better piece than this.

Lunacie
11-26-13, 11:47 AM
It is a common claim, scientifically undocumented, that following onset of psychostimulant medications, ADHD children become less playful, more adult-like. Such changes are reasonable since psychostimulants promote neo-cortical arousal, and the neocortex inhibits all primary-process emotional urges (Liotti & Panksepp, 2004 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2242642/#b19-ccap16_2p057)). Primal playful urges are a subcortical birthright of animals


I thought it was pretty well accepted that kids with ADHD don't play as
well with their peers as they do with children younger than themselves,
and that they also enjoy interacting with adults more than NT children do.
It seems strange to link that to the use of medication when it's already
present in the ADHD child.

mctavish23
11-26-13, 12:41 PM
There's much more to be learned in this arena.

tc

Robert

Dizfriz
11-26-13, 01:17 PM
The thing to keep in mind about children's play is that is the way they process their world. We as adults use words and talk to make sense of our world, to bring experiences to manageable level where they can be processed.

Children use toys in a similar way and play as a way to make the abstract concrete. While we as adults talk it out, children play it out. Same purpose, different tools.

Children do not really have ability to talk things out. Verbal abstract reasoning begins to take hold somewhere around the age of 9 more or less. Below that, words and discussion do not have much traction for kids. It is a function of neurological development.

Look at a child's play. You will see them play out their experiences. This is how they make sense of their world. Watch them play out adult and adult/child situations. Watch them play out what they physically experience in life. It is fascinating and if you know what to look for, very informative.

I cannot overemphasize the role of play in children. It is an integral part of their development.


As a point though, it appears that Play Therapy alone has little or no impact on ADHD children. This is quite logical since it is a neurobiological disorder and as far as I know no therapy has much of an impact on this at least in children (I have not researched this specific issue in several years so something might have changed but so far I haven't seen it).

What Play Therapy can do is work with the emotional issues that can go along with an ADHD child's interaction with the world. If it is combined with teaching behavior management to the parents, a Play Therapy/behavior management protocol can be quite effective working with ADHD in children.

Dizfriz

Amtram
11-26-13, 01:39 PM
You know, this reminds me of something I hadn't thought about in ages. When I was a child, and the school got a psychologist from the Child Study Center to work with me, a great deal of what she did was let me play - and observe my play and ask me questions about my play. At the time, I knew she was there to help me, and I knew she was tape-recording our time together, but what it meant to me as a child was that someone was letting me play without judging me, and she kept coming back twice a week, every week, regardless of what I did - no rejection.

I think that she was probably observing my play to learn what I couldn't express in words, and at the same time, making me think about what I was doing so that I could express myself and thereby better engage in social interactions.

I don't know how closely this would compare to actual "play therapy," since I was very young, but I do know that the intervention of this therapist was essential to my continuing in mainstream education instead of being wrongly placed in "special ed." It also helped me make and keep friends, which had been a major challenge even in preschool.

SB_UK
11-26-13, 02:24 PM
I could be made to see that when the mind is not (di)stressed it is in a state of 'play' - and by this definition - I would agree that an absence of (di)stress is the mechanism for prevention of disorder component of ADHD.

mildadhd
11-26-13, 04:28 PM
Allowing the children to change the rules, to fit their interest, is always a blast.








Peripherals

Dizfriz
11-26-13, 06:38 PM
Dizfriz

You know, this reminds me of something I hadn't thought about in ages. When I was a child, and the school got a psychologist from the Child Study Center to work with me, a great deal of what she did was let me play - and observe my play and ask me questions about my play. At the time, I knew she was there to help me, and I knew she was tape-recording our time together, but what it meant to me as a child was that someone was letting me play without judging me, and she kept coming back twice a week, every week, regardless of what I did - no rejection.

I think that she was probably observing my play to learn what I couldn't express in words, and at the same time, making me think about what I was doing so that I could express myself and thereby better engage in social interactions.

I don't know how closely this would compare to actual "play therapy," since I was very young, but I do know that the intervention of this therapist was essential to my continuing in mainstream education instead of being wrongly placed in "special ed." It also helped me make and keep friends, which had been a major challenge even in preschool.

what it meant to me as a child was that someone was letting me play without judging me, and she kept coming back twice a week, every week, regardless of what I did - no rejection. Yep this was play therapy. There are a number of different schools of Play Therapy but the good ones work with total approval, accepting children as they are without wishing them to be different in any way. That is the heart of effective Play Therapy and it all the benefits stem from that principle.

Thanks for posting this, you said it well.

Dizfriz

mctavish23
11-26-13, 10:05 PM
I've done Play Therapy for nearly 30 years now (01/24/2014 will be 30 yrs. exactly). You

have to be acutely aware of the developmental stage of the child, and the resulting lags

involved. While an interesting idea, the "global" assessment that stimulants decrease

creative spontaneity in play, is (IMO) an over generalization; depending on age + meds.

None-the-less, an intriquing question to be raised. Thanks.

tc

Robert

TygerSan
11-27-13, 12:58 PM
I am unsure which studies he cites when saying that stimulants reduce play. What I do know about the subject (including a paper he was an author on) is that ritalin reduces play in juvenile rats. I'll have to see if I can dig up the reference.

I sound like a bit of a broken record, but I have to point out again that while rats are an important model, it is very difficult to make direct translations between what occurs in rats and what is likely to happen in kids. Getting the dose of drug right is very hard, because rats have very different metabolisms than humans, and whatever work has been done has either been done in normal rats on Ritalin (ie no sign of ADHD) or, possibly, an imperfect animal model of the disorder that most likely mimics the symptoms in some way (say, hyperactivity) but not in others.

Dizfriz
11-27-13, 01:24 PM
While an interesting idea, the "global" assessment that stimulants decrease creative spontaneity in play, is (IMO) an over generalization; depending on age + meds.



While anecdotal in nature, what I have seen that ADHD kids when put on medication become more focused in their play.

Untreated, ADHD children often flit from activity to activity often within seconds and not able to be focused on any particular theme.

After medication, these kids would often be able focus on an activity for more extended periods. I personally view this as positive.

Some may well see this as a reduction in spontaneity or play activity but I don't really see it that way. I feel the more focused play activities are more productive in the child processing emotions and feelings in the play room.

Others may disagree and that is OK as I don't have any studies to back this up, just experience.

Not really interested enough in this aspect to do any serious and time consuming research so I am only reporting based on what I have seen..

Dizfriz

mildadhd
11-27-13, 10:50 PM
Originally Posted by mctavish23

...depending on age + meds.


I sure would like to learn more about your experience with play therapy.


I agree, for me the interest is in the different stages/ages of development.

Free PLAY instinct. (primary process)

Even now, Free PLAY is where I find happiness.

As opposed to organized play.

I consider myself to be pretty smurt, and have developed a lot of coping mechanisms, when opportunity for free play presented itself(pre adult diagnoses/medicate).

I am curious to know the answers to the questions Prof. Panksepp asks?

I take SR medication, and benefit from the medication.

In fact I would not have been able to focus and read/listen to Prof Panksepp's research, before my adulthood ADD diagnoses and before the benefits of medication.

I would never have been able to focus enough to read.

I love taking medication when reading about primary emotions.

I understand Prof. Panksepp to be sincere, focusing on early development.





Peripherals

Amtram
11-27-13, 11:04 PM
I'm not doubting his sincerity, but he's making assumptions not only unsupported by research, but directly contradicted by evidence found by research. I wish he would keep his focus more, and build upon his and others' supported findings, rather than publishing a list of suppositions as a research paper. Doing this diminishes the legitimacy of his previous findings.

mildadhd
11-27-13, 11:18 PM
I'm not doubting his sincerity, but he's making assumptions not only unsupported by research, but directly contradicted by evidence found by research. I wish he would keep his focus more, and build upon his and others' supported findings, rather than publishing a list of suppositions as a research paper. Doing this diminishes the legitimacy of his previous findings.


I can agree to disagree.

I have lots of information I want to discuss in this thread, but I hope to take my time in a Free PLAY type mode.






Peripherals

mildadhd
11-27-13, 11:24 PM
Footnotes

Much empirical evidence supports the existence of at least seven prototype emotional systems in all mammalian brains: SEEKING, RAGE, FEAR, LUST, CARE, PANIC and PLAY (Panksepp, 1998a).

Please note that capitalizations are used for primary-process emotional systems to

i) avoid part-whole confusions,

ii) to alert readers to the claim that these may be necessary brain systems for those types of emotional behaviors and feelings although by no means sufficient for all the emotional manifestations that may arise from those systems in real world activities, and

iii) to highlight that specific psychobehavioral brain systems are the referents of these labels).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2242642/




Peripherals

Daydreamin22
11-28-13, 12:09 AM
Good thing to know since ADHD is passed down and early Childhood is just a crucial time in general. That's probably why from what I've seen, there is a ton of information about it. Way more than other areas in the study of ADHD, including childhood ADHD.


http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=%22harvard%22%20%22attention%20deficit%22%20pres chool&source=web&cd=24&cad=rja&ved=0CDIQFjADOBQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fcpj.sagepub.com%2Fcontent%2F50%2F 2%2F144.refs&ei=IsSWUozdBcjIkAe404C4Bg&usg=AFQjCNFc3-jjVRUJNwQsYJw_uS3O53uHmQ&sig2=yE_xwy9uszoNqFMzQcwi0Q&bvm=bv.57155469,d.cGU
http://repository.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1153&context=gse_pubs&sei-redir=1&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Furl%3Fsa%3Dt %26rct%3Dj%26q%3D%2522upenn%2522%2520%2522attentio n%2520deficit%2522%2520preschool%26source%3Dweb%26 cd%3D6%26cad%3Drja%26ved%3D0CEgQFjAF%26url%3Dhttp% 253A%252F%252Frepository.upenn.edu%252Fcgi%252Fvie wcontent.cgi%253Farticle%253D1153%2526context%253D gse_pubs%26ei%3D27-WUs6lPIbQkQeU8oAY%26usg%3DAFQjCNHQiG6x46_F1lakVE7s wA-nNLYM-A%26sig2%3Dp-hL0xDmGNPVdpxvq7njcQ%26bvm%3Dbv.57155469%2Cd.cGU#s earch=%22upenn%20attention%20deficit%20preschool%2 2

Amtram
11-28-13, 12:58 PM
I can agree to disagree.

I have lots of information I want to discuss in this thread, but I hope to take my time in a Free PLAY type mode.






Peripherals

Disagreeing with well-supported evidence leads to incorrect conclusions and ineffective treatments.

Play therapy is a well-supported treatment modality for children between the ages of 3 and 11, and can be Directed, Non-Directed, or a combination of both. It can be used not only as a tool for improving children's behavioral and/or social difficulties, but also for diagnosis of problems that children have difficulty expressing in words.

It has been used in one form or another to understand children for centuries, but the play therapy model currently in use was developed in the 1950s and has evolved since then, while still using the same basic principles.

Play Therapy for children is very much akin to Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for adults. For that reason, it is going to have much more of an impact on psychological difficulties than psychiatric or neurological issues. It will not cure a condition that originates from brain differences, and it can change the manifestation of symptoms only to the extent that the child is able to control them.

The Association for Play Therapy and Play Therapy International are two of the best known organizations for the practice of Play Therapy. Looking through their pages, it seems clear that their focus is on helping children with emotional and social issues and learning problems. They have information about special procedures for working with autistic children, but as far as ADHD goes, they say nothing about diminishing symptoms.

Early intervention for a child whose manifestation of symptoms causes social and emotional problems is clearly going to help prevent those problems from becoming worse, and play therapy has some pretty impressive success rates in helping children with these problems.

That is a very different thing from making the symptoms themselves go away.

mildadhd
11-28-13, 01:16 PM
Disagreeing with well-supported evidence leads to incorrect conclusions and ineffective treatments.

Play therapy is a well-supported treatment modality for children between the ages of 3 and 11, and can be Directed, Non-Directed, or a combination of both. It can be used not only as a tool for improving children's behavioral and/or social difficulties, but also for diagnosis of problems that children have difficulty expressing in words.

It has been used in one form or another to understand children for centuries, but the play therapy model currently in use was developed in the 1950s and has evolved since then, while still using the same basic principles.

Play Therapy for children is very much akin to Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for adults. For that reason, it is going to have much more of an impact on psychological difficulties than psychiatric or neurological issues. It will not cure a condition that originates from brain differences, and it can change the manifestation of symptoms only to the extent that the child is able to control them.

The Association for Play Therapy and Play Therapy International are two of the best known organizations for the practice of Play Therapy. Looking through their pages, it seems clear that their focus is on helping children with emotional and social issues and learning problems. They have information about special procedures for working with autistic children, but as far as ADHD goes, they say nothing about diminishing symptoms.

Early intervention for a child whose manifestation of symptoms causes social and emotional problems is clearly going to help prevent those problems from becoming worse, and play therapy has some pretty impressive success rates in helping children with these problems.

That is a very different thing from making the symptoms themselves go away.

You are discussing secondary processes.

How come you don't discuss PLAY, (primary process)?

That is where Prof. Panksepp is coming from, in my opinion.

I am not arguing against secondary and tertiary processes.

This thread is about PLAY (from the primary processes view).


See post #20 (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1574886&postcount=20) to see why PLAY and the other primary-process emotional systems are capitalized.






Peripherals

mildadhd
11-28-13, 01:39 PM
Everyone agrees that distress can make ADD worse.

If distress can make ADD worse, then eustress can make ADD better.

There is lots of real research I would like present, please be patient with me.

I would really like to, and think I can, meet the guidelines of this forum.

It is going to take me some time to gather the information in a manner to meet the requirements of this science forum.

I appreciate the accommodations provided by ADDF to practice.








Peripherals

Amtram
11-28-13, 02:48 PM
Play therapy does address emotional issues, but it doesn't limit itself to a list or a hierarchy. It is very much tailored to individual needs of each child, with certain approaches applied in the case of children with common issues that have responded to those approaches.

The issue still remains that Panksepp is extrapolating from animal data and contradicting the evidence derived from human research.

mildadhd
11-28-13, 04:18 PM
Play therapy does address emotional issues, but it doesn't limit itself to a list or a hierarchy. It is very much tailored to individual needs of each child, with certain approaches applied in the case of children with common issues that have responded to those approaches.

The issue still remains that Panksepp is extrapolating from animal data and contradicting the evidence derived from human research.


Please post the evidence derived from human research you are referring to, for discussion ?










Peripherals

mildadhd
11-28-13, 04:48 PM
I fully appreciate Panksepp's research on play..

Amtram,

could you clarify which research on PLAY by Prof. Panksepp, you appreciate and why?






Peripherals

mildadhd
11-28-13, 05:15 PM
Brain research supports the existence of at least seven primary-process (basic) emotional systems - SEEKING, RAGE, FEAR, LUST, CARE, GRIEF (formerly PANIC), and PLAY - concentrated in ancient subcortical regions of all mammalian brains.

In sum, affective neuroscientific analysis of basic emotions is based on several highly replicable facts:

(i) Coherent emotional-instinctual behaviors can be aroused by electrically stimulating very specific subcortical regions of the brain;

(ii) Wherever one evokes emotional action patterns with ESB, there are accompanying affective experiences. Again, the gold standard for this assertion is the fact that the brain stimulations can serve as “rewards” when positive-emotions are aroused - eg, SEEKING, LUST, CARE, and aspects of PLAY. When negative emotions are aroused - RAGE, FEAR, GRIEF - animals escape the stimulation;

(iii) The above behavioral and affective changes are rarely, if ever, evoked from higher prefrontal neocortical regions, suggesting that higher brain areas may not have the appropriate circuitry to generate affective experiences, although the neocortex can clearly regulate (eg, inhibit) emotional arousals and, no doubt, prompt emotional feelings by dwelling on life problems.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3181986/



i!i

Amtram
11-28-13, 06:53 PM
Actually, many of them are in the paper you originally linked. There are several points at which Panksepp himself admits, in the paper, that he has supportive information in animal research alone, and that research on humans contradicts the conclusions he's trying to make. There's really no need to go beyond the paper itself and the outside references it cites.

All you need to do is read the text of what you presented - if you're not emotionally invested in believing the author or have a cognitive bias towards his ideas, you can see that there is entirely too much in the paper that is self-contradictory.

I doubt that too many people would benefit from a sentence-by-sentence dissection of the entire piece, and I personally don't see any benefit to doing so. I think that most of the questionable parts of the paper are pretty evident.

mildadhd
11-29-13, 12:18 PM
[QUOTE=Amtram;1575395]Panksepp is extrapolating from animal data and contradicting the evidence derived from human research.

Amtram

It would be really helpful if you could provide the human research that contradicts animal studies.

Not everything is similar between animals (including humans), but there are also similarities between animals that can be very helpful to understand.

Prof Panksepp also uses human brain research, but for ethical reasons human research does not always exist.

That is why I want to see the human research you claim, Prof Panksepp is contradicting, so I can compare with other animal studies.

Could you please provide the human research you claim is being contradicted?








Peripherals

Amtram
11-29-13, 01:06 PM
Panksepp himself says right in the paper that (depending on which part you're reading) there is "no evidence to suggest" one statement or another, or specifies that his findings came from rat studies. A lot of the problems I see come not from outside sources, but from the paper itself.

Now, I just ran across an article that I wanted to share anyway, but it's appropriate here - and I think it's relevant because it specifically addresses critical reading of scientific studies and shows that there are reasons that we should not simply accept something as fact because it was published in a journal at some point. It's called "Twenty Tips for Interpreting Scientific Claims," (http://www.nature.com/polopoly_fs/1.14183!/menu/main/topColumns/topLeftColumn/pdf/503335a.pdf) and a couple of paragraphs are particularly relevant.

Bias is rife. Experimental design or measuring devices may produce atypical results in a given direction. For example, determining voting behaviour by asking people on the street, at home or through the Internet will sample different proportions of the population, and all may give different results. Because studies that report 'statistically significant' results are more likely to be written up and published, the scientific literature tends to give an exaggerated picture of the magnitude of problems or the effectiveness of solutions. An experiment might be biased by expectations: participants provided with a treatment might assume that they will experience a difference and so might behave differently or report an effect. Researchers collecting the results can be influenced by knowing who received treatment. The ideal experiment is double-blind: neither the participants nor those collecting the data know who received what. This might be straightforward in drug trials, but it is impossible for many social studies. Confirmation bias arises when scientists find evidence for a favoured theory and then become insufficiently critical of their own results, or cease searching for contrary evidence.

I bolded that last, because this is a problem I see in this article. In fact, it's something I try to be particularly aware of when looking at anything that's a meta-analysis or a hypothetical proposal. Sometimes it's difficult to see if you're not a scientist working in that field of research, because you won't have been exposed to the contradictory evidence beforehand. In this paper, though, the author includes contradictory evidence and dismisses it or suggests that it's wrong.

Study relevance limits generalizations. The relevance of a study depends on how much the conditions under which it is done resemble the conditions of the issue under consideration. For example, there are limits to the generalizations that one can make from animal or laboratory experiments to humans.

Again, my bold on that last sentence. Animal experiments are extremely useful - and often essential - but the results do not automatically translate to human results. And in the case of studying a particular gene, or disease, or symptom, or anything that is intended to progress to human study or use, it's vital that the animals possess the same or as close to the same conditions as the humans to which the research will be applied. So looking at how play affects normal lab rats is even less predictive of results with ADHD children than looking at how play affects neurotypical children and concluding that it will automatically do the same with ADHD children.

And finally,

Data can be dredged or cherry picked. Evidence can be arranged to support one point of view. To interpret an apparent association between consumption of yoghurt during pregnancy and subsequent asthma in offspring, one would need to know whether the authors set out to test this sole hypothesis, or happened across this finding in a huge data set. By contrast, the evidence for the Higgs boson specifically accounted for how hard researchers had to look for it — the 'look-elsewhere effect'. The question to ask is: 'What am I not being told?'

As I mentioned, this is a problem that is not uncommon in papers of this type, and combined with bias, makes it even more important that a reader look critically at what is being said and how it's being presented.

This paper has shortcomings that are apparent with just a critical reading. I don't feel it's necessary to go further and look for evidence to contradict each specific claim, because there are so many that are already presented as speculations without supportive citations within the article itself.

daveddd
11-29-13, 01:23 PM
one thing that leaves me skeptical about animal studies with mental illness

animals dont possess top down emotional drive, they are driven by instinct and learned behavior

most mental illness is an issues of top down emotional problems

Amtram
11-29-13, 01:51 PM
daveddd, animals can be used to study very simple mechanisms of emotional and social problems, but because their emotional and social behaviors are limited, their responses to brain changes or medications can be very useful in showing whether there's a potential connection between a specified variable and behavioral changes.

Mice and rats are regularly genetically altered to include or exclude a gene that's being studied to see if it has an effect, and what that effect is. This can help us understand what it might do in humans, how it might affect biological function or response to medication, and so on.

However, it's a lot harder to genetically engineer animals to have ADHD or autism or schizophrenia or depression, and so forth, because none of these are conditions with a simple cause-and-effect correlation. Therefore, assuming that something that alters a single thing in animal models, whatever that alteration may be, can be applied to humans who have these complex conditions is especially wrong.

someothertime
11-29-13, 02:16 PM
most mental illness is an issues of top down emotional problems

Trigger (often but not always), treatment wise and symptomatically that would seem to be true.

Biological predisposition/groundwork... and adaptive mechanisms ( coping vs development of underlying biology ) play a much greater role in everything than existing science / common perception portrays.

i.e. Mental Illness is a western concept... categorised based on ones coping strategies with their environment. If a tree grows upside down... it's biological... trees do not have mental illness... Name one mental illness that has been cured?

The very notion that PLAY can diminish ADHD is reframing what ones environment is hence... correcting ones adaptions to suit their environment OR Interrupting this top down interplay with underlying biology to considerable effects on resulting brain chemistry / neural pathways.

SB_UK
11-29-13, 02:21 PM
The very notion that PLAY can diminish ADHD is reframing what ones environment is hence...

Exactly - the disorder element of ADHD is environmental in nature.
We can eliminate our disorder by changing our social environment.

The social and medical epidemiologist have identified our perfect society.

Equality engineered from the bottom up.

daveddd
11-29-13, 02:30 PM
Trigger (often but not always), treatment wise and symptomatically that would seem to be true.

Biological predisposition/groundwork... and adaptive mechanisms ( coping vs development of underlying biology ) play a much greater role in everything than existing science / common perception portrays.

i.e. Mental Illness is a western concept... categorised based on ones coping strategies with their environment. If a tree grows upside down... it's biological... trees do not have mental illness... Name one mental illness that has been cured?

The very notion that PLAY can diminish ADHD is reframing what ones environment is hence... correcting ones adaptions to suit their environment OR Interrupting this top down interplay with underlying biology to considerable effects on resulting brain chemistry / neural pathways.

this is how i see it

the biology is not illness, the biology can be coped with, although difficult

mice have the biology, not the top down- so no illness

Amtram
11-29-13, 03:10 PM
I'm afraid I'm finding it difficult to conceptualize, say, schizophrenia or autism as "top-down" conditions caused by emotional or social environment.

daveddd
11-29-13, 03:12 PM
I'm afraid I'm finding it difficult to conceptualize, say, schizophrenia or autism as "top-down" conditions caused by emotional or social environment.

were not on the same page

but you couldnt see psychosis as a reaction to emotional pain ?

i think thats been proven (not specifically to schizophrenia )

daveddd
11-29-13, 03:16 PM
and i agree that classic autism is a very physical disease

some off the newer different ones i view a little different

Dizfriz
11-29-13, 03:29 PM
Name one mental illness that has been cured?


In many cases, depression in that once treated with medication and therapy, the disorder never reoccurs in that individual.

I don't know if you would term that a "cure" but it is close enough for me.

Dizfriz

SB_UK
11-29-13, 03:34 PM
I could be made to see that when the mind is not (di)stressed it is in a state of 'play' - and by this definition - I would agree that an absence of (di)stress is the mechanism for prevention of disorder component of ADHD.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronic_stress
These produce impairments in working memory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_memory)[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronic_stress#cite_note-Mizoguchi-6) and spatial memory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spatial_memory)[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronic_stress#cite_note-Mizoguchi-6)The exact profile of memory disturbance that I experience.

ADHD disorder is simply chronic stress.

Do we need to know exactly how stress leads to these problems ?

Do we need to drink or know why water is necessary for drinking ?
One is important - the other is optional.

Dizfriz
11-29-13, 03:42 PM
were not on the same page but you couldnt see psychosis as a reaction to emotional pain ? i think thats been proven (not specifically to schizophrenia ) Psychosis could be a reaction to emotional pain but it can also be caused by a number of other issues including substance abuse, brain injury, physical illness, schizophrenia and Alzheimer's.

Some types of psychosis are Hallucinations, Delusions, Catatonia and Thought disorders


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychosis

Just throwing in some information.

Dizfriz

daveddd
11-29-13, 03:47 PM
Psychosis could be a reaction to emotional pain but it can also be caused by a number of other issues including substance abuse, brain injury, physical illness, schizophrenia and Alzheimer's.

Some types of psychosis are Hallucinations, Delusions, Catatonia and Thought disorders


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychosis

Just throwing in some information.

Dizfriz

thanks for info, i agree totally

ive experienced cocaine psychosis , nasty stuff


funny i found a couple articles hidden deep away, 2 different ones left the people befuddled

some experiments with cocaine ,, as an additional finding only adhd people experienced cocaine psychosis

Dizfriz
11-29-13, 04:14 PM
as an additional finding only adhd people experienced cocaine psychosis

Good grief and little catfishes, do you think the authors might be experiencing some degree of psychosis themselves?

Dizfriz

Abi
11-29-13, 04:31 PM
one thing that leaves me skeptical about animal studies with mental illness

animals dont possess top down emotional drive, they are driven by instinct and learned behavior

Apart from the pedantic fact that humans ARE animals, I think it's fair to say that we are also largely driven by instinctive and learned behaviours, just more complex ones, as we are the animals with the most complex and highly developed brains.

most mental illness is an issues of top down emotional problems

How sure are we of this?

mctavish23
11-29-13, 04:39 PM
My experience in Play Therapy over the last (approximately) 30 years, has literally run

the gamut of childhood disorders. For the most part, I've used traditonal Play Therapy

with younger kids (Ages 3 - 6 or 7 yrs. old.); whom I don't work with anymore. Each case

and each client's situation will be unique in some way. However, the Play Therapy

approach essentially remains the same. You observe their interactions, and look

for "themes."

For that age group, I've mostly used doll houses; complete with different furniture and

individual family members, etc. I've also used puppets, different board games like

Candy Land for example, as well as playing with trucks, dolls, and also coloring.

I would definitely agree with Dizfriz on the positive impact of ADHD medication on the

quality of a child's play; as there's usually a "night and day difference" in their ability to

focus on the task, adopt a more organized approach to problem solving, interrupt less,

and wait their turn, etc.

That's just a small sample of my anecdotal / subjective experiences.

Hope that helps.

tc

mctavish23

(Robert)

daveddd
11-29-13, 06:47 PM
Apart from the pedantic fact that humans ARE animals, I think it's fair to say that we are also largely driven by instinctive and learned behaviours, just more complex ones, as we are the animals with the most complex and highly developed brains.



How sure are we of this?

Sorry I should have been more clear

I'm aware we are animals

Humans are different in ways though

We can reason with our instincts and emotions internally

We have a conscious self awareness that is different than animals

daveddd
11-29-13, 06:51 PM
Good grief and little catfishes, do you think the authors might be experiencing some degree of psychosis themselves?

Dizfriz

Idk

I thought maybe it was a reaction biological one. Relating to a sensitivity in threat detection or pre pulse inhibition

daveddd
11-29-13, 06:57 PM
Hey doctors

When I was little I didn't express well and still don't

But I always drew a pic of me and my buddy living in an underground base. Away from everything And with plenty of weapons to defend us

It's all I ever drew. What's that mean

And with Rorschach everything I see is always a face. But I can't picture faces

Any interpretation. I won't take it as literal practicing or diagnosing

Amtram
11-29-13, 07:09 PM
I think that really what this comes down to, as I see it, is that there is ample robust evidence that play therapy as a psychological approach to diagnosis and treatment in children who are experiencing emotional, social, and learning difficulties, is well-supported.

What is at issue is the idea that psychotherapy can "cure" anything. No matter what form it takes, it can be used to teach a person how to change their attitudes and behaviors so that they can have a better life socially and emotionally. It teaches people how to work within their limitations, take advantage of their strengths, and compensate for their weaknesses.

Even moreso than medications, psychotherapy is a treatment, not a cure. But as we've discussed in other threads, it treats one aspect of mental illnesses, conditions, and disorders. If there is an organic origin to the problem, then that needs to be looked at separately from the behavioral issues.

Depending on what the mental condition is, behavioral modification will have more or less success. I've gone through play therapy as a child, and behavioral psychotherapy as an adult, both specifically focusing on the problems caused by my ADHD. Yes, they helped with my behavior and my attitude, but no matter how conscious they made me of modifying those things, they did not ever do anything to diminish my symptoms. My personal experience is only an anecdote, of course, but it is in line with the research that has been done with humans with ADHD - that psychotherapy can change behavior, but only medications actually impact the symptoms that ADHDers experience.

daveddd
11-29-13, 07:46 PM
I think that really what this comes down to, as I see it, is that there is ample robust evidence that play therapy as a psychological approach to diagnosis and treatment in children who are experiencing emotional, social, and learning difficulties, is well-supported.

What is at issue is the idea that psychotherapy can "cure" anything. No matter what form it takes, it can be used to teach a person how to change their attitudes and behaviors so that they can have a better life socially and emotionally. It teaches people how to work within their limitations, take advantage of their strengths, and compensate for their weaknesses.

Even moreso than medications, psychotherapy is a treatment, not a cure. But as we've discussed in other threads, it treats one aspect of mental illnesses, conditions, and disorders. If there is an organic origin to the problem, then that needs to be looked at separately from the behavioral issues.

Depending on what the mental condition is, behavioral modification will have more or less success. I've gone through play therapy as a child, and behavioral psychotherapy as an adult, both specifically focusing on the problems caused by my ADHD. Yes, they helped with my behavior and my attitude, but no matter how conscious they made me of modifying those things, they did not ever do anything to diminish my symptoms. My personal experience is only an anecdote, of course, but it is in line with the research that has been done with humans with ADHD - that psychotherapy can change behavior, but only medications actually impact the symptoms that ADHDers experience.

i think it depends on the organic problem, although none have been found conclusively in psychology

if the organic interacts enough with the environment , i dont think you can do much about the original organic problem


true story ,, friend of mine has aspergers, a pretty classic case, his sister has full blown borderline personality disorder

do you believe those are just two unrelated separate diseases they both happen to have?

Amtram
11-29-13, 10:13 PM
Psychology as a discipline doesn't address the biological elements of any problem, only the things that a person has the ability to change by himself. Some psychological research will overlap with neurology or neurochemistry, but psychology itself is concerned with addressing emotional and behavioral issues.

I don't know how the distinction between two conditions comes into this, daveddd. There is no question that autism is inborn - there are strong genetic indicators, distinct functional differences seen in computer imaging, and just recently a study came out showing that differences in eye tracking in infants as young as 6 months old was a significantly strong indicator of autism. The evidence that children are born with autism is too abundant to ignore.

There are indicators for ADHD in infancy, as well. It's just that the symptoms are more broadly defined, and more people with ADHD can function and fly under the radar. I fully expect that at some point at least specific symptoms are going to be shown as being inborn.

I don't know much about BPD, except that it does have some symptomatic similarities to several other conditions, and as I've mentioned many times, the collections of symptoms used for diagnosis is not what is now going to be used for scientific research. By researching by symptom, we'll be able to find out what parts of mental conditions are biological, and where they originate in the brain.

Still, though, psychological interventions change behaviors, not symptoms. They can change the brain in the same ways that any kind of learning can change the brain. They don't fix symptoms that are caused by brain differences a person was born with.

daveddd
11-29-13, 10:19 PM
Psychology as a discipline doesn't address the biological elements of any problem, only the things that a person has the ability to change by himself. Some psychological research will overlap with neurology or neurochemistry, but psychology itself is concerned with addressing emotional and behavioral issues.

I don't know how the distinction between two conditions comes into this, daveddd. There is no question that autism is inborn - there are strong genetic indicators, distinct functional differences seen in computer imaging, and just recently a study came out showing that differences in eye tracking in infants as young as 6 months old was a significantly strong indicator of autism. The evidence that children are born with autism is too abundant to ignore.

There are indicators for ADHD in infancy, as well. It's just that the symptoms are more broadly defined, and more people with ADHD can function and fly under the radar. I fully expect that at some point at least specific symptoms are going to be shown as being inborn.

I don't know much about BPD, except that it does have some symptomatic similarities to several other conditions, and as I've mentioned many times, the collections of symptoms used for diagnosis is not what is now going to be used for scientific research. By researching by symptom, we'll be able to find out what parts of mental conditions are biological, and where they originate in the brain.

Still, though, psychological interventions change behaviors, not symptoms. They can change the brain in the same ways that any kind of learning can change the brain. They don't fix symptoms that are caused by brain differences a person was born with.

im not arguing that, i actually agree


what i meant is one organic problem can result in several different outcomes

Blanched Dubois
11-29-13, 10:27 PM
http://theparentingpassageway.com/2009/06/24/waldorf-education-adhd-and-what-the-parent-of-the-normal-child-can-learn/


I would have put my son in Waldorf had the one in my area not been run as the antitheseis of what Steiner had in mind for a community and my expenses should have nothing to do with it - nor should yours.,,,,,check it out

mildadhd
11-30-13, 12:44 AM
Interesting discussion, thanks everyone!

When PLAY is capitalized.

Capitalization of SEEKING, FEAR, ANGER, LUST, CARE, GRIEF, PLAY refers to primary process emotional systems.

Subcortical, primarily instinct, fine tuned and adapted during secondary and tertiary processes.

The title of this thread is "Can PLAY Diminish ADHD and Facilitate the Construction of the Social Brain?"


All mammals have the PLAY instinct.

All mammals have the same 7 primary process emotional systems.

They begin in the lower regions of the ancient brain and go all the way to the front orbito frontal cortex, in human animals.

At birth development is ground up and emotion domiant before the age of 4.

After the age of 4 until adult hood top down regulation develops, built upon the emotional ground up development that occurred in early infancy/childhood.


In my opinion, the question is can promoting the Free PLAY instinct promote development of the orbito frontal cortex and other areas of the brain that are implicated in ADD? Especially in early infancy/childhood.

The natural instinct to PLAY (as apposed to planned, with rules.)


Before the age of 4, development of brainmind is primarily emotional and ground up.


I appreciate everyone's interest, I am not trying to sell anyone any BS.

I find looking at topics from a Affective Neuroscience makes things easier to understand , for me.

I don't doubt the importance of secondary and tertiary processes. (learned) (adaption).

But the capitalization of PLAY means the discussion is about primary process emotional system, hard wired genetic.

Who can believe that I am promoting primary processes, hard wired genetics (instinct) and Amtram is promoting development of learned and adaptive development. LOL




Peripherals

mildadhd
11-30-13, 02:04 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KanfLqKXYg

mildadhd
11-30-13, 02:20 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wt1IY3ffoU

mildadhd
11-30-13, 04:12 AM
(43:47) ..Do things like pressure, like swinging, like balancing activities, while your doing your ABA, and sometimes it helps the speech to come out, especially the balancing and the swinging. The pressure. Here is a teacher working with a kid and somehow these activities stabilize the brain. I really don't know how they work. But it does. It's just amazing..

-Animal Science Prof. Temple Grandin


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wt1IY3ffoU

SB_UK
11-30-13, 04:30 AM
But I always drew a pic of me and my buddy living in an underground base. Away from everything And with plenty of weapons to defend us


And we created a safe house in the middle of overgrown grass in which we couldn't be attacked.

Automatic reactions to the stress of living in a psychopathic society.

The educational and workplace systems are responsible.

They're both subverted by the monetary system.

Both can be recovered in a world without money.

You must not put one foot out of place in either - or you are dead in the water - without money to pay for life's essentials.

And as we all know here - and as MeADD823 constantly describes - sitting still at school (the stress) drives an ADDer insane.

SB_UK
11-30-13, 04:42 AM
Are we sure it's not absence of distress which degrades the mind, rather than presence of play.

The core problem with play - is what does 'play' mean ?

We can identify what is (di)stressing by looking at stress hormone production.

But what is 'play' ?

'Play' can't be scripted, I guess - just as different people hyperfocus on different things.

Imagine the problem in setting up hyperfocus for ADDers ... ... you can't do it by 'protocol' - it's too individual.

To take medication in order to play is not right.

That's just scripted work masquerading as play.

To be play - the individual needs to want (gain reward) from doing it.

I've see many a time, children who just don't want to play a certain game.

Forcing them to do it - 'd have exactly the same effect as forcing them to study something they're not interested in learning.
Stress response.
Requirement for medication in order to comply.

That's just not play.

SB_UK
11-30-13, 04:52 AM
Can PLAY Diminish ADHD and Facilitate the Construction of the Social Brain?So - yes.

But you can't 'Institutionalise' play.

Institutions tend towards trying to re-label onerous tasks as 'fun' or as 'play'.

This is the criminal aspect to words.

You see it in action, each and every time we watch an advert.

My point is - that play is difficult to roll out as an industrial cure for ADHD.

Perhaps also that the ADDer might not even know what it is that they'd like to play.

Perhaps the ADDer in poverty has nothing available that they'd like to play.

The best we can do - is provide ADDer with a free (DI-$tre$$ le$$) environment, in which given the freedom of choice - the individual is able to gravitate towards what the individual finds rewarding (some definition of play).

Education and work can be re-phrased as play - but ONLY - when they're no longer compulsory.

Education and work are TEDIOUS because we've a gun to our head and MUST comply; remove the requirement for money and both education and work become attractive (play).

It's really important to note that what some call play - is work to others ... ... and what others call work is play to some.

We're looking at words which have no fixed definition.

SB_UK
11-30-13, 05:54 AM
Animal Science Prof. Temple Grandin

The problem with science.

Years ago I saw a piece on Temple Grandin and her method of killing animals for food such that they suffer less stress prior to death.
And then a large body of science which strongly suggests (primarily cholesterol/animal sat fat/endotoxin related) - that we shouldn't eat any animal products.

You see - if one branch of science doesn't talk to the next ... ... then science generates nonsense.

We don't need to worry about killing animals for food nicely
- because science teaches us that we're not meant to be killing animals (nor eating any animal product at all) at all.

And the problem with science is ?
That the experts in the various molecular disciplines of medicine don't want to talk to people who're just as powerful as they are - because they want to retain complete power over their molecular domain.

SB_UK
11-30-13, 06:44 AM
And the problem with science is ?
That the experts in the various molecular disciplines of medicine don't want to talk to people who're just as powerful as they are - because they want to retain complete power over their molecular domain.

My basic point is: Jeux Sans Frontières.

The human mind is our relatively new property.
You can't build a global mind if you're consigned to a molecular cubicle.

Each molecular cubicle builds its own language to keep people out.

Nobody can build a global mind - because nobody can understand what the person in the next cubicle is talking about.

And so the very definition of play to a species with a mind - ie "Jeux Sans Frontières" is closed off.

It's interesting to note that throughout history - it was common for individuals to have expertise in many, many academic disciplines.
Not so now, where it's hard enough to find the smallest of niches in just one.

My point is - is that if we want a definition of play - the best definition to mind - would be the ability to integrate all human knowledge within an individual's (all individuals') minds ... ...

It's really not difficult.

Just hang everything off 'frame of boson', creator, emergent evolution (as synonyms), (ADDF/Stabile = social impulse).

SB_UK
11-30-13, 08:51 AM
rat park

Question

Whatever the rats did in 'rat park' could be considered play ?
Whatever the rats did in 'rat tenement blocks' could be considered as not play ?

Assessment - the attraction of rats for drugs.

If you're at play - you don't need drugs to attend.
If you're not at play - you need drugs (stress relief) to attend.

The very idea that drugs can improve 'play' is truly ridiculous.

By~definition - improvement/attraction under/for the drugs of stress relief defines whatever the individual as doing - as NOT play.

Amtram
11-30-13, 03:07 PM
Peripheral, the reason is that I understand and accept that there are multiple causes for things, physical, mental, emotional, social, neurological, and that means that there are going to be multiple ways to address each one. Most are going to be effective only on the aspect of the condition that responds to that treatment.

CBT, in whatever form it takes, can address the psychological aspect of a mental condition, if the patient is able to process and implement the recommended changes. However, if there's an underlying physical issue (a brain difference), it cannot possibly make that go away.

daveddd
11-30-13, 03:50 PM
Peripheral, the reason is that I understand and accept that there are multiple causes for things, physical, mental, emotional, social, neurological, and that means that there are going to be multiple ways to address each one. Most are going to be effective only on the aspect of the condition that responds to that treatment.

CBT, in whatever form it takes, can address the psychological aspect of a mental condition, if the patient is able to process and implement the recommended changes. However, if there's an underlying physical issue (a brain difference), it cannot possibly make that go away.

the recent accepted model of adhd is very broad

its tough to separate behavior and physical as an adult

im having problems there myself

daveddd
11-30-13, 06:11 PM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2242642/bin/ccap16_2p057f1.jpg






i!i

cool i didnt see this before

do you believe an issue with primary emotions at birth?

Amtram
11-30-13, 06:18 PM
The points in that chart would not apply to infants. In fact, a few of them wouldn't apply to children before the ages of 5-7 years old. It's very basic and simplistic, but still reflects qualities that are part of executive functioning and assumed to be primarily controlled by the frontal lobes, but not present at birth because they require communication and social interaction and experience with actions and consequences that develop over time.

daveddd
11-30-13, 06:21 PM
cool i didnt see this before

do you believe an issue with primary emotions at birth?

im not sure whos chart it is, but it mimics barkley

looking at it reminds of the existential psycologist rollo something

he said depression is the inability to construct the future

looking at the chart it makes me rethink the adhd - depression relationship

daveddd
11-30-13, 06:24 PM
The points in that chart would not apply to infants. In fact, a few of them wouldn't apply to children before the ages of 5-7 years old. It's very basic and simplistic, but still reflects qualities that are part of executive functioning and assumed to be primarily controlled by the frontal lobes, but not present at birth because they require communication and social interaction and experience with actions and consequences that develop over time.
no, primary emotions are present at birth, not top down

that is one thing that confuses me

accepted definition of adhd - poor executive function (which makes sense)

its said we are born with it , yet no one is born with executive functions

dont get me wrong, i believe we are born with something, but more something that keeps us from EFs

its were i get caught up a lot trying to talk about, what , as an end product in adults in physical and what is the result of physical

i really have the need to understand better

mctavish23
11-30-13, 09:34 PM
Play is the natural medium of expression for children the world over.

tc

Robert

Amtram
11-30-13, 09:49 PM
daveddd, the chart specifically said "Programmed by Life Experiences" across the top. Are you referring to a different one? I thought that was the one you meant, since it was the one you put in your post. . .

daveddd
11-30-13, 09:54 PM
daveddd, the chart specifically said "Programmed by Life Experiences" across the top. Are you referring to a different one? I thought that was the one you meant, since it was the one you put in your post. . .

Just speakin of ADHD

That seems to be the accepted model of EF

daveddd
11-30-13, 09:56 PM
Primary emotion would be the "negative temperment" at birth Barkley theorizes

janiew
11-30-13, 10:55 PM
I played my @ss off as a child - had a lot of fun and was very active. Of course, I broke my arms four times and had stitches four times. But it was a good time and I have some pretty cool scars.

I also played indoors and had a rich imaginative and emotional life with lots of baby dolls, barbies, and stuffed animals.

It could be kids these days don't have the same opportunity to play. Reliance on electronics to baby sit. Pressure to perform / take tests. Concerns about letting kids go outside and get dirty. Etc.

??? Seems a lot of kids are stifled.

mildadhd
11-30-13, 10:57 PM
The neurobiology of positive emotions.

Abstract
Compared to the study of negative emotions such as fear, the neurobiology of positive emotional processes and the associated positive affect (PA) states has only recently received scientific attention.

Biological theories conceptualize PA as being related to

(i) signals indicating that bodies are returning to equilibrium among those studying homeostasis,

(ii) utility estimation among those favoring neuroeconomic views, and

(iii) approach and other instinctual behaviors among those cultivating neuroethological perspectives.

Indeed, there are probably several distinct forms of positive affect, but all are closely related to ancient sub-neocortical limbic brain regions we share with other mammals.

There is now a convergence of evidence to suggest that various regions of the limbic system, including especially ventral striatal dopamine systems are implemented in an anticipatory (appetitive) positive affective state.

Dopamine independent mechanisms utilizing opiate and GABA receptors in the ventral striatum, amygdala and orbital frontal cortex are important in elaborating consummatory PA (i.e. sensory pleasure) states, and various neuropeptides mediate homeostatic satisfactions.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16099508/

daveddd
12-01-13, 12:34 AM
I played my @ss off as a child - had a lot of fun and was very active. Of course, I broke my arms four times and had stitches four times. But it was a good time and I have some pretty cool scars.

I also played indoors and had a rich imaginative and emotional life with lots of baby dolls, barbies, and stuffed animals.

It could be kids these days don't have the same opportunity to play. Reliance on electronics to baby sit. Pressure to perform / take tests. Concerns about letting kids go outside and get dirty. Etc.

??? Seems a lot of kids are stifled.

i played from dusk till dawn all day every day myself

mainly sports


but yea kids today tend not to play as much, at least around where i live

Unmanagable
12-01-13, 03:00 AM
I'm coming in at the tail end of this conversation and I may be way out in left field, but I'm going to think out loud for a minute.

When I looked at the chart, the first thing that came to me is:

We are born with some level of Movement (Stop), Sight (Look), Sound (Listen), Sensation (Feel) (unless blind or deaf as it relates to sight or sound), then progress and develop from there.

mildadhd
12-02-13, 01:13 PM
I wanted to express how happy I am about the participation and all the discussion in this thread.

Lots of great questions, topics, insight.

Looking forward to participating in the discussion later tonight when I get home.

I wanted let everyone know how much I appreciate their perspectives.


Really helps!


Have a nice day.


Peripherals

Kunga Dorji
12-02-13, 11:25 PM
While anecdotal in nature, what I have seen that ADHD kids when put on medication become more focused in their play.

Untreated, ADHD children often flit from activity to activity often within seconds and not able to be focused on any particular theme.

After medication, these kids would often be able focus on an activity for more extended periods. I personally view this as positive.

Some may well see this as a reduction in spontaneity or play activity but I don't really see it that way. I feel the more focused play activities are more productive in the child processing emotions and feelings in the play room.

Others may disagree and that is OK as I don't have any studies to back this up, just experience.

Not really interested enough in this aspect to do any serious and time consuming research so I am only reporting based on what I have seen..

Dizfriz

Dizfriz,
what you are suggesting here is a variant of a comment I have made many times over the years.
Stimulants improve concentration and especially direct concentration on the activity at hand.

Re the broader question:
There is copious research on the role of play in animals-- especially significant in the question of the behaviour of social (as opposed to solitary) predators.

Issues such as eye contact in play fighting and biting between puppies or between say lion or tiger cubs are of critical importance. As an example my housemate is so familiar with cats that she can pick the sound that a kitten makes when its litter mate has accidentally bitten too hard. However- learning these signals is a key part of ability to function in a social unit- and play is the environment in which that learning occurs.

However- this sort of engagement is also part of the type of engagement that is critical for brain development- and is a more complex version of the initial attachment relationship with a parent.

The basic model of ADHD is as a neurodevelopmental model- and social engagement is a key input to the maturation and development of the social brain.

So inability to be engaged while playing will lead to failure to learn the social cues that are markers that affect regulation is required, and will deprive the developing brain of the experiences necessary to refine its circuitry.

There is another catch here- that the tuning out of the ADHD child can make his playmates think he is just not interested and that can set him at odds with his playmates--- so if not done cautiously, the outcome of introducing stimulants might just be to give the child good focus in an environment where he is already unpopular and regarded as a bit odd or stand- offish. That would just lead to his really noticing how difficult things were and might worsen his outcome in some situations. --- which leads to the need to combine the medications with a little skilful social support.

SB_UK
12-03-13, 06:11 AM
Dizfriz,
what you are suggesting here is a variant of a comment I have made many times over the years.
Stimulants improve concentration and especially direct concentration on the activity at hand.

Re the broader question:
There is copious research on the role of play in animals-- especially significant in the question of the behaviour of social (as opposed to solitary) predators.

Issues such as eye contact in play fighting and biting between puppies or between say lion or tiger cubs are of critical importance. As an example my housemate is so familiar with cats that she can pick the sound that a kitten makes when its litter mate has accidentally bitten too hard. However- learning these signals is a key part of ability to function in a social unit- and play is the environment in which that learning occurs.

However- this sort of engagement is also part of the type of engagement that is critical for brain development- and is a more complex version of the initial attachment relationship with a parent.

The basic model of ADHD is as a neurodevelopmental model- and social engagement is a key input to the maturation and development of the social brain.

So inability to be engaged while playing will lead to failure to learn the social cues that are markers that affect regulation is required, and will deprive the developing brain of the experiences necessary to refine its circuitry.

There is another catch here- that the tuning out of the ADHD child can make his playmates think he is just not interested and that can set him at odds with his playmates--- so if not done cautiously, the outcome of introducing stimulants might just be to give the child good focus in an environment where he is already unpopular and regarded as a bit odd or stand- offish. That would just lead to his really noticing how difficult things were and might worsen his outcome in some situations. --- which leads to the need to combine the medications with a little skilful social support.

This all sounds good - the sole problem though is - is it play ?

So - let's say I were to call copying out some large book written in a foreign language 'play' ... ... well - meds would certainly help
- but is it play ?

I think that play has to be intrinsically rewarding and therefore by definition not require meds.

Medication makes everything more bearable.

In the case of play - it's one's own body being motivated / not distressed which we're trying to nurture
- by overcoming the requirement for innate motivation / not distressed

- I'm not too sure that the benefits which we require from play, can be derived.

'Play' just becomes as meaningless as all of the tasks which we find we can do when we take medication.

SB_UK
12-03-13, 06:15 AM
Apparently it's accepted that there's often some form of developmental delay in ADDers.

So - imagine a kid playing games with kids who're 3 years older
- it's just not going to be fun - because ADDer isn't ready.

I've observed this in a kid who's ~ 3 years delayed
- his natural tendency is to find kids who're 3 years younger and play with them.

And so - as ever - the word 'play' is questioned ... ...

1 definition of play is painful, another - ideal.

But for us to benefit from 'play' - we need to nurture types of activities which bring reward - and not which require artificial reward / stress-relief in order to comply.

daveddd
12-03-13, 07:27 AM
Dizfriz,
what you are suggesting here is a variant of a comment I have made many times over the years.
Stimulants improve concentration and especially direct concentration on the activity at hand.

Re the broader question:
There is copious research on the role of play in animals-- especially significant in the question of the behaviour of social (as opposed to solitary) predators.

Issues such as eye contact in play fighting and biting between puppies or between say lion or tiger cubs are of critical importance. As an example my housemate is so familiar with cats that she can pick the sound that a kitten makes when its litter mate has accidentally bitten too hard. However- learning these signals is a key part of ability to function in a social unit- and play is the environment in which that learning occurs.

However- this sort of engagement is also part of the type of engagement that is critical for brain development- and is a more complex version of the initial attachment relationship with a parent.

The basic model of ADHD is as a neurodevelopmental model- and social engagement is a key input to the maturation and development of the social brain.

So inability to be engaged while playing will lead to failure to learn the social cues that are markers that affect regulation is required, and will deprive the developing brain of the experiences necessary to refine its circuitry.

There is another catch here- that the tuning out of the ADHD child can make his playmates think he is just not interested and that can set him at odds with his playmates--- so if not done cautiously, the outcome of introducing stimulants might just be to give the child good focus in an environment where he is already unpopular and regarded as a bit odd or stand- offish. That would just lead to his really noticing how difficult things were and might worsen his outcome in some situations. --- which leads to the need to combine the medications with a little skilful social support.

this makes a ton of sense to me in so many ways

one way, it helps explain why i love social interaction (reward right) online

i can interact without all that pesky emotional transference through eye contact, that overwhelms me so much

daveddd
12-03-13, 11:05 AM
Guys I'm starting to get more interest in this topic

At the doc today and told him my improvement in emotional regulation through mindfulness

He stated. What we KNOW now is that emotional regulation is developed in the first 3 years of life

He said genetics for sure play a large role in temperment But the way the primary caregiver is in tune with it is how emotion regulation develops

He also said this can be changed as adults through mindfulness

daveddd
12-03-13, 11:07 AM
He made sure to also add that it by no means ,means this person didn't care about u

mildadhd
12-03-13, 11:55 AM
Table I. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3181986/table/TI/)


Levels of control in brain emotion-affective processing


1. Primary-process, basic-primordial affects (sub-neocortical)


i) Emotional affects (emotion action systems; intentions-in-actions)

ii) Homeostatic affects (hunger, thirst, etc via brain-body interoceptors)

iii) Sensory affects (sensorially triggered pleasurable-displeasurable feelings)



2. Secondary-process emotions (learning via basal ganglia)


i) Classical conditioning

ii) Instrumental and operant conditioning

iii) Emotional habits




3. Tertiary affects and neocortical “awareness” functions


i) Cognitive executive functions: thoughts and planning

ii) Emotional ruminations and regulations

iii) “Free-will” or intention-to-act



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3181986/

i!i

Lunacie
12-03-13, 12:04 PM
Apparently it's accepted that there's often some form of developmental delay in ADDers.

So - imagine a kid playing games with kids who're 3 years older
- it's just not going to be fun - because ADDer isn't ready.

I've observed this in a kid who's ~ 3 years delayed
- his natural tendency is to find kids who're 3 years younger and play with them.

And so - as ever - the word 'play' is questioned ... ...

1 definition of play is painful, another - ideal.

But for us to benefit from 'play' - we need to nurture types of activities which bring reward - and not which require artificial reward / stress-relief in order to comply.

I so rarely agree with SB that I had to respond. Yes, it does seem that kids
with ADHD and even Autism tend to seek out younger children to play with.
But what happens to the child who doesn't have younger children available to
play with?

I was 5 years older than my sister, so I played with her and her friends as
much as I played with neighbor kids who were my age. When my grandkids
were small, the only other kids on our street were not good playmates as the
boy was a bully, so I would take the girls to Playland at McD's or BK.

mildadhd
12-03-13, 01:00 PM
It is essential to clarify, what level of "processes" is being discussed.

#1 Primary Processes

#2 Secondary Processes

#3 Tertiary Processes


At birth, we start with #1 primary process emotion systems.

Then #2 Secondary Processes, then #3 Tertiary Processes.



From the age of 4, (top down begin to "take over")

#1 Primary Processes

#2 Secondary Processes

#3 Tertiary Processes

#3 Tertiary Processes

#2 Secondary Processes

#1 Primary Processes










Laymans

mildadhd
12-03-13, 01:04 PM
If we are going to understand Secondary Processes and Tertiary Processes, (executive)

We need to learn about primary emotional processes, that executive functions are built upon, before the age of 4. (approx)





Laymans

Kunga Dorji
12-03-13, 10:04 PM
This all sounds good - the sole problem though is - is it play ?

So - let's say I were to call copying out some large book written in a foreign language 'play' ... ... well - meds would certainly help
- but is it play ?

I think that play has to be intrinsically rewarding and therefore by definition not require meds.

Medication makes everything more bearable.

In the case of play - it's one's own body being motivated / not distressed which we're trying to nurture
- by overcoming the requirement for innate motivation / not distressed

- I'm not too sure that the benefits which we require from play, can be derived.

'Play' just becomes as meaningless as all of the tasks which we find we can do when we take medication.


SB- play involves physical movement, imagination and creativity.
This is important - as there is an intimate interlinkage between the orienting processes of attention and emotion, and the outcome of that orientation. ie We orient to something usually via visual or auditory cues, and we respond to that stimulus either as neutral, interesting/rewarding (in which case we approach) or potentially threatening, in which case we avoid.
However, the approach and avoid involve movement. So sitting still copying from a book may not be intrinsically rewarding.

The originally cited article is a very god find and talked of the intrinsic urge to play in all young mammals.

I would suggest that in adult humans that urge not lost, but is often suppressed, and that that suppression leaves many people feeling isolated and depressed.

Now the article originally cited is interesting in that it raises the possibility that part of the ADHD problem may be a cultural "dis- ease" that compels children to do too much sitting still in class from too young an age. I think that is a valid point. I do not think that it will be "the cause" of ADHD- butit may push many individuals from subclinical ADHD to overt ADHD.

Kunga Dorji
12-03-13, 10:28 PM
this makes a ton of sense to me in so many ways

one way, it helps explain why i love social interaction (reward right) online

Ican interact without all that pesky emotional transference through eye contact, that overwhelms me so much

Dave- you mention mindfulness in your next post.

Now the good thing is that we now understand the issues of mirror neurones and body language based interactions well enough to apply this to mindfulness training in a way that actually allows us to learn to enjoy social interaction on a physical basis.

I am continually amazed at how easy it is now for me to have positive social interactions -- when I am with people who no longer see me in a particular way. (ie I am nearly divorced now- and it is still troubling that my ex reacts to me in a way that dos not acknowledge that I have changed very substantially, and in fact her reactions are still likely to bring out some of my old patterns).

I am sure that within a few years these interventions will become so refined that we will be able to get many people with even quite significant Asperger syndrome to start to relax and enjoy social interactions.
(Severe classical autism is another case).

daveddd
12-03-13, 10:37 PM
Dave- you mention mindfulness in your next post.

Now the good thing is that we now understand the issues of mirror neurones and body language based interactions well enough to apply this to mindfulness training in a way that actually allows us to learn to enjoy social interaction on a physical basis.

I am continually amazed at how easy it is now for me to have positive social interactions -- when I am with people who no longer see me in a particular way. (ie I am nearly divorced now- and it is still troubling that my ex reacts to me in a way that dos not acknowledge that I have changed very substantially, and in fact her reactions are still likely to bring out some of my old patterns).

I am sure that within a few years these interventions will become so refined that we will be able to get many people with even quite significant Asperger syndrome to start to relax and enjoy social interactions.
(Severe classical autism is another case).

after 30 seconds in my drs office

my doctor said, dave ive been seeing you for 3 years , today (after only 30 seconds) he said i was projecting a completely different personality

his immediate examples were eye contact, and conversation that didnt involve 'pulling teeth'

he said immediately he knew it wasnt just meds

Lunacie
12-03-13, 10:41 PM
If we are going to understand Secondary Processes and Tertiary Processes, (executive)

We need to learn about primary emotional processes, that executive functions are built upon, before the age of 4. (approx)

Laymans


Finally! I finally have some idea what you're talking about.
We watched a great video tonight at Parent Support Group meeting:
Conscious Discipline with Dr. Becky Bailey.

Lower brain is basic human survival: Attack, Defend or Hide, based in the brain stem.
Mid brain is emotions: Blame, Divert attention, Vocal attack, based in the limbic system.
Upper brain is Executive Control: Conscious choices, Problem solving, based in the pre-frontal lobes.

What we build in children is a foundation of either fear or safety.
Fear is very stressful. It can disable the connection with the upper brain,
leaving us with animal reactions rather than human executive control.

SB_UK
12-04-13, 05:23 AM
after 30 seconds in my drs office

my doctor said, dave ive been seeing you for 3 years , today (after only 30 seconds) he said i was projecting a completely different personality

his immediate examples were eye contact, and conversation that didnt involve 'pulling teeth'

he said immediately he knew it wasnt just meds

I think we relax when we trust another person.

Oh my!!! 3 years.
I'd be in a constant state of stress seeing anybody who charges as much as those chaps do.
So - looking at a watch 15 minutes gone arghhh!! £50 spent ... ... that'll take me 1 full day on minimum wage to afford.
Ooo stress.
Ooo disorder.

And we're paying for it !!

ps Money is bad !

post-edit (15 mins after posting)
For some crazy reason I've noticed that I was stressed at the thought of you spending that much money on a psycho-thing and I'm still stressed at the thought of you paying a psychologist loadsa' money for 3 years. Wow! that's some mirror neurone, empathic response !!
Crazy stuff.

ps Dave - if you need to save some money after the psych bleeding you dry
- what I do is read yesterday's newspaper one day later - people just throw it away you see
... and it's nearly up to date.
You can save yourself lots and lots of money, sadly not relative to the cost of psycho lawyo medico architecto money junkie.

SB_UK
12-04-13, 05:30 AM
SB- play involves physical movement, imagination and creativity.

Sounds good ... ... except the kid has to call the level they're happy to play at.

So - human (the ones who care to communicate) physicists will imagine and be creative at a level which kiddies can't ... ...
force a kiddy to imagine / be creative at the level of a physicist and they won't get very far.

If ADD involves a significant developmental delay - then that's kinda' what we're doing.

The point being - is there an Institutional mechanism for arranging 'play' ? - or is it each to their own ?

This is a fairly difficult problem.

It raises the question of whether people can get better and engage in more sophisticated/rewarding play without the dreariness of 'learning their scales' ... ...

I think that if play is to 'work' - it has to be engaged in volitionally ie without meds.
But - the point I made above - of whether some boredom must be overcome to gain more out from play remains.

We need to look at what the meds are doing.

Are they helping a kid to perform a boring task ?
Or are the meds calming the kid down (stress-relief) so that kiddy can attend ?

Really big problem is this - because my general argument is that meds lead to stress relief - in which case meds might be useful to facilitate play.
However - meds can also be used to force us to perform boring tasks - so preventing us from using our internal divining stick towards beneficial play.

You know what's coming.

I can't separate between the two - and so the mechanism I'd plump for is to eliminate distre$$ - such that we know that the meds are not being used for stress relief
- thereafter - if a kiddy can't attend
- it's because kiddy doesn't want to.

Tough is this - the problem comes down to what are the meds for ?

Are they for stress-relief ?
Are they for motivation ?

The problem is - is that they're for both.

And if the meds are being used to assist play to overcome stress-relief, then they're good.
And if the meds are being used to force a form of play which is boring, then they're bad.

The problem is - is that we don't know which usage the meds are being put to.

And so - if we eliminate DI(stress) by eliminating the compulsion to attend (ie if you don't pay attention you'll suffer in some way which'll ultimately result in you not being able to obtain money)
- then we'll know that any 'play' which the child does not want to engage in
- is NOT 'play'.

someothertime
12-04-13, 05:36 AM
I've been pondering this... it's guided pro social/creative tools and an absence of oppression.

Bio-relationship will be next to nothing unless in the first 4 years...

Still a fantastic persuit... in terms of equipping an ADDer for success... Less inhibition... Moving forward and not getting stuck.... Key word here....


Self realisation



You'd probably have more success ( with brain adaption ) playing whale sounds to a developing foetus...

SB_UK
12-04-13, 05:54 AM
And if the meds are being used to assist play to overcome stress-relief, then they're good.

Actually - they may not be so good.

They'll simply be masking the stress response.

A bit like not being able to feel the handle of a hot pan - whilst holding.

The meds may not permit us to realise we've elevated cortisol ... ... but elevated cortisol will result in cortisol resistance regardless of whether we realise we're stressed ... ... resulting in inappropriate inflammatory regulation ... ... resulting in disease.

Yes - we get a good night's sleep if we switch off our fire alarm, on the night that a fire starts in our house ... ... but ... ...

Sure you don't feel the pain - but what of the underlying damage ? which is being caused.

OK - now arguing the opposite side.

But - it's possible to get the kid to 'learn' procedures using meds which later help the child to overcome the stress response which meds are being used to 'hide'.

Aaarrggggh!! That might be true.

-*-

What's the best solution though ?

I can't work out whether stimulant medication is good or bad in all situations.
I can work out how though to eliminate their usage in a bad context (DIstress alleviation)
- and that'd be by eliminating money/social hierarchy.

And also how medication would thereafter not be required - because it's being used to drive motivation in stressful tasks.

Aha! So you've come up with an answer - haven't you ?
I can't work out whether stimulant medication is good or bad in all situations.That was quick!Yes - drugs're bad uhuh! in all situations - because they're simply hiding underlying damage.

Usage 1 - in distress -> cortisol resistance occurs without us knowing.
Usage 2 - unstimulating activities - cause stress, which meds will simply serve to mask -> cortisol resistance occurs in the background.

Cortisol resistance -> Loss of inflammatory control and oxidative stress -> Diseases of Western-style living.

Definitely.

We need to chill.

SB_UK
12-04-13, 06:09 AM
it's guided pro social/creative tools and an absence of oppression.


That's the solution.

Avenues for creativity AND absence of oppression.

EOR doesn't work - you cannot have fun (play) when you're stressed up the wazoo.

I wonder what a wazoo is ?

Kunga Dorji
12-04-13, 08:31 AM
Actually - they may not be so good.

They'll simply be masking the stress response.

A bit like not being able to feel the handle of a hot pan - whilst holding.

The meds may not permit us to realise we've elevated cortisol ... ... but elevated cortisol will result in cortisol resistance regardless of whether we realise we're stressed ... ... resulting in inappropriate inflammatory regulation ... ... resulting in disease.

Yes - we get a good night's sleep if we switch off our fire alarm, on the night that a fire starts in our house ... ... but ... ...

Sure you don't feel the pain - but what of the underlying damage ? which is being caused.

OK - now arguing the opposite side.

But - it's possible to get the kid to 'learn' procedures using meds which later help the child to overcome the stress response which meds are being used to 'hide'.

Aaarrggggh!! That might be true.

-*-

What's the best solution though ?

I can't work out whether stimulant medication is good or bad in all situations.
I can work out how though to eliminate their usage in a bad context (DIstress alleviation)
- and that'd be by eliminating money/social hierarchy.

And also how medication would thereafter not be required - because it's being used to drive motivation in stressful tasks.

Aha! So you've come up with an answer - haven't you ?
Yes - drugs're bad uhuh! in all situations - because they're simply hiding underlying damage.

Usage 1 - in distress -> cortisol resistance occurs without us knowing.
Usage 2 - unstimulating activities - cause stress, which meds will simply serve to mask -> cortisol resistance occurs in the background.

Cortisol resistance -> Loss of inflammatory control and oxidative stress -> Diseases of Western-style living.

Definitely.

We need to chill.

The issues here are prettty simple:

1) In allowing the child to focus on playing and engaging-- that child will have success experiences that allow the child to stop feeling stressed by the interpersonal interactions.
The help of a well worded up adult mentor/ teacher overseeing this will help. However- the basis for the negative expectations that re-inforce the stress experience will diminish.

2) Neuroplastic change in the brain requires a novel task, repetition, sufficient arousal and focussed attention.(Ref Daniel Siegel: Mindsight)
For a person who has a dysfunctional attention system the stabilisation of attention by stimulants actually provides the physiological basis for neuroplastic maturation of the brain.

These both add up to indicating a clearly beneficial role for skilfully used medication--not to a blanket "drugs are always bad" position.

Amtram
12-04-13, 11:30 AM
Now I see several additional problems that I feel need to be considered.

1.) The myth of the first three years. (http://movingonfrombowlby.wordpress.com/2013/01/05/the-myth-of-the-first-three-years/) This is a problem for several reasons, mainly because it's flawed and yet being accepted unconditionally, but also because if we are talking about children who have any kind of mental difference, then we need to address their needs in a way that is unique to that difference. Problem is. . .at this point we have few, if any, ways of detecting that there is a difference in the first place during this developmental period. Eye tracking at 6 months has shown some promise as a way to predict autism, but even then, things parents could do to help a potentially autistic child are not automatically going to benefit a child who is not autistic.

2.) Social play, not just play therapy (which is individualized treatment and designed for the specific problems a unique child needs to overcome) is being promoted as necessary, and I'm getting the feeling from a few of the comments here (and from Dr. Panksepp's paper in the OP) that it should be somehow forced upon a child who does not naturally fall into it. What surprises me is that some of the agreement is coming from people I usually see supporting the idea that children with ADHD should not be forced into conformity.

A child with ADHD or with autism or any other disorder that limits his social skills may need play therapy so he can learn what he needs to function or even enjoy social interaction. He might need medication. He might do fine in the social situations he chooses, and doesn't need to be pushed into a greater number of social situations. Being compelled to play "like a normal kid" isn't going to turn him into a "normal kid." It's quite possibly going to further impair him socially, and make him angry because his preferred method of play is judged as inferior.

3.) The differences in style of play that Panksepp points out in his paper are present in children with ADHD prior to being medicated. His assumption that medication impairs children's ability to play is derived from animal models ("Might such play-deprived children be commonly diagnosed with Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorders (ADHD), and psychostimulants prescribed, which quell natural playfulness, a well documented effect in animal models?")

It is posed as a question because he provides no evidence to back up that rat models (that can't be verified as "having ADHD,") using a single medication, automatically supports that the same effect will occur in humans with ADHD and prescribed that or a different medication that works better for them. We have two clinicians contributing here who confirm their experiences that they have worked with children who benefit from play therapy and improve emotionally and socially much more effectively after being medicated. A quick search of "medication improves social skills in ADHD" turned up too many results to read in Google Scholar, but I went through several pages, and there seems to be sufficient evidence to contradict Panksepp's assumption that medication impairs socialization.

4.) The emphasis on picking apart the function of play down to emotions or processes that might not even be relevant to the effects of play seems to detract from the point rather than add information, because different kinds of play serve different functions, and different individuals benefit in unique ways to play.

I don't think anyone would question that early engagement in some form of play between an infant or toddler and other children and adults is beneficial. However, forcing socialization upon a pre-verbal child when he gives signals that he wants to be alone or has been overstimulated is not going to make a more social child - it is going to create an anxious child who wants to avoid interaction.

Likewise, we certainly all agree that children between 3 or 4 and 11 learn most of their social skills and a great deal about emotional self-regulation from group play, whether spontaneous or organized. In this way, the school environment is actually helpful, especially if adults who are in a position to observe recognize negative behavior patterns and try to figure out what is causing them and help teach the child to modify them.

And I feel that many of us are probably in agreement that as adults, we should probably play more - not to develop social skills, necessarily, but because it's good for us to just kick back and have fun, no matter how old we are.

TygerSan
12-04-13, 12:16 PM
One of the things that *is* known is that artificially depriving rats of play impairs brain development. The part of the brain that is most impaired is the prefrontal cortex.

So while it may not be true that ADHDers are impaired because they aren't playing, it *is* accurate to speculate that abuse/neglect/isolation from peers may impact early brain development.

In disorders like ADHD and autism, to me it becomes a very murky picture about what the cause and the effect are. First, is the autistic child's development stunted because they don't play normally, or is it (more likely IMO) that abnormal brain development causes the social difficulty? Second, if one can establish that the type or quality of play is diminished in autistic individuals as compared to typically developing peers, is it really a given that forcing them to play with peers in a way that is unnatural to them will help reverse a developmental deviance?

I could see scenarios in which it is truly a vicious cycle: certain developmental differences decrease the motivation to play. Lack of play, in turn, stunts brain development in other ways which, again, make social interaction more difficult. But, that is based on the premise that play is as beneficial to those children as it would be to a typically developing child, and I'm not convinced that's the case.

Kunga Dorji
12-04-13, 05:15 PM
One of the things that *is* known is that artificially depriving rats of play impairs brain development. The part of the brain that is most impaired is the prefrontal cortex.

So while it may not be true that ADHDers are impaired because they aren't playing, it *is* accurate to speculate that abuse/neglect/isolation from peers may impact early brain development.

In disorders like ADHD and autism, to me it becomes a very murky picture about what the cause and the effect are. First, is the autistic child's development stunted because they don't play normally, or is it (more likely IMO) that abnormal brain development causes the social difficulty? Second, if one can establish that the type or quality of play is diminished in autistic individuals as compared to typically developing peers, is it really a given that forcing them to play with peers in a way that is unnatural to them will help reverse a developmental deviance?

I could see scenarios in which it is truly a vicious cycle: certain developmental differences decrease the motivation to play. Lack of play, in turn, stunts brain development in other ways which, again, make social interaction more difficult. But, that is based on the premise that play is as beneficial to those children as it would be to a typically developing child, and I'm not convinced that's the case.

I totally agree with the vicious cycles comment.
Unfortunately the need of scientific method to isolate single variables in order to allow for each one to be examined has a bad outcome of over-simplifying cause and effect issues. So we end up thinking in an overly linear, black and white manner.

I can't reference it quickly- but I am sure that it is well accepted that play is important to the development of all animals- including the human animal.
That play could be less beneficial to ADDers could easily be a reflection that because the ADD child is not really focussing on the play, he is not really "in" the experience, and not getting the neuroplastic benefits of it.

Dizfriz
12-04-13, 06:04 PM
I That play could be less beneficial to ADDers could easily be a reflection that because the ADD child is not really focussing on the play, he is not really "in" the experience, and not getting the neuroplastic benefits of it.


Speaking just from experiential data, I would tend to agree at least to a point.

Especially at first, severe ADHD kids flit from play object to play object seldom stopping long enough to really work through any thematics. Later on, this usually calms down enough so some real work can done.

But again I must make the point that Play Therapy has little effect of ADHD itself. It can have an impact of some aspects of self control and acting out of feelings but that does not have a lot of impact on the symptoms themselves.

Keep in mind that ADHD kids, like any kid, have a lot of emotions going on that they do not understand nor can they put words to. Play Therapy helps them deal with that.

Dizfriz

mildadhd
12-05-13, 02:41 AM
Question: Did you do any play research with humans? (-Brain World)

Answer: We did perhaps the first systematic experimental research on human children. But human physical play still has not been extensively studied. Developmental psychologists usually only study play with toys and games. We studied the play of two friends—pairs of boys and girls at 47 years of age—in an empty room with mats on the floor but no toys. “Play and enjoy,” we told them, and videotaped their interactions for about half an hour. We scored about 20 behaviors such as running after each other, wrestling, pushing from the front, pushing from the back, laughing, and so forth. Surprisingly, there was hardly any difference between the play of young girls and boys, as the human play literature led us to believe. A lot of people have claimed that boys play more, but we don’t see that in our rats or our human studies. We think many of the reported gender differences in play are a result of learning rather than any intrinsic differences. (-Jaak Panksepp)

- See more at: http://brainworldmagazine.com/dr-jaak-panksepp-the-importance-of-play/#sthash.Wrmx0SUe.dpuf



"there was hardly any difference between the play of young girls and boys".








i!i

mildadhd
12-07-13, 06:34 PM
Institutionalizing the PLAY instinct, "play and enjoy", would have been a more positive experience for me, in my opinion.

Than what I experienced through out my school years.

I had really nice teachers, but sitting at a desk, in a classroom was hard work.

Draining.

Not to mention the classwork.

Although I am not visually hyperactive, could not stop from daydreaming.

Interesting how different situations can promote or demote development.

I remember reading, (but I can't remember where?), Panksepp encouraging montessori type schools, that already use some methods he thinks would be productive?


Any body have any early school experience with Montessori type education?


Montessori education (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montessori_education) is an educational approach developed by Italian physician and educator Maria Montessori and characterized by an emphasis on independence, freedom within limits, and respect for a child’s natural psychological, physical, and social development.

Although a range of practices exists under the name "Montessori", the Association Montessori Internationale (AMI) and the American Montessori Society (AMS) cite these elements as essential:[1][2]

-Mixed age classrooms, with classrooms for children aged 2½ or 3 to 6 years old by far the most common

-Student choice of activity from within a prescribed range of options

-Uninterrupted blocks of work time, ideally three hours

-A constructivist or "discovery" model, where students learn concepts from working with materials, rather than by direct instruction

-Specialized educational materials developed by Montessori and her collaborators

-Freedom of movement within the classroom

-A trained Montessori teacher





Peripherals

Kunga Dorji
12-07-13, 11:29 PM
Now I see several additional problems that I feel need to be considered.

1.) The myth of the first three years. (http://movingonfrombowlby.wordpress.com/2013/01/05/the-myth-of-the-first-three-years/) This is a problem for several reasons, mainly because it's flawed and yet being accepted unconditionally, but also because if we are talking about children who have any kind of mental difference, then we need to address their needs in a way that is unique to that difference. Problem is. . .at this point we have few, if any, ways of detecting that there is a difference in the first place during this developmental period. Eye tracking at 6 months has shown some promise as a way to predict autism, but even then, things parents could do to help a potentially autistic child are not automatically going to benefit a child who is not autistic.
[quote]

The preponderance of brain growth occurs before age 3, so the nature of development becomes markedly influenced by those three years.

Re eye tracking: that is interesting- as it is one of the principal abnormalities in children with KISS/KIDD (see my thread on upper cervical injuries).

[quote]
2.) Social play, not just play therapy (which is individualized treatment and designed for the specific problems a unique child needs to overcome) is being promoted as necessary, and I'm getting the feeling from a few of the comments here (and from Dr. Panksepp's paper in the OP) that it should be somehow forced upon a child who does not naturally fall into it. What surprises me is that some of the agreement is coming from people I usually see supporting the idea that children with ADHD should not be forced into conformity.

A child with ADHD or with autism or any other disorder that limits his social skills may need play therapy so he can learn what he needs to function or even enjoy social interaction. He might need medication. He might do fine in the social situations he chooses, and doesn't need to be pushed into a greater number of social situations. Being compelled to play "like a normal kid" isn't going to turn him into a "normal kid." It's quite possibly going to further impair him socially, and make him angry because his preferred method of play is judged as inferior.


I am not so sure about this. I was a pretty hyperactive (if uncoordinated ) kid, and just could not wait to get out for play breaks-- even if there were issues with being bullied.
I never felt compelled to play-- I felt constrained from playing.

Again I reference Biedermann from his book Manual Therapy in Children:

P { margin-bottom: 0.21cm; } “We all know that it does not help a lot to tell the child to sit straight. Twenty to twenty five seconds later the old posture is back. Unconscious support of the head during school lessons is another well known problem. Many children in such a situation start to fidget and wriggle on their chairs. Before we label them hyperactive it might help to think about how much sitting still we ask of them at a time when mother nature wants them to move freely around”


Now the reason for the slouched posture is that the upper neck is more or less chronically hyperextended, and that turns off the back extensor reflexes to allow for forwards gaze. However- it remains true that most ADHD boys at least would rather be outside and active for that reason alone.

mildadhd
12-08-13, 12:49 AM
Thanks after thinking about it.

I should have asked the teachers if I could lay on the floor and listen.

I think i might have been more interested.

I really like the idea of having a supervised classroom, with students of different ages.

If I remember correctly? Panksepp partly acknowledges his own academic accomplishments due to having gone to a one classroom school?

Grade one, in row one.

Grade two, in row two.

Grade three, in row three.

Grade four, in row four.

Grade five, in row five.

Grade six, in row six...


The younger grades, overheard what was happening, in the older grades.



I would have benefited from that style of learning.

Example:

Sometimes I learned things I was exposed to, during grade 6, that helped me understand things I didn't understand, that I was exposed to in grade 3.

If I had the chance to hear a more whole picture, from grade 1 to grade 6.

I think I would have been more interested in learning the younger grades.

Because I could understand, why I was learning the material.


I am curious to know, if woman and men, with the same size body and ADD, have the same posture problem?

Thanks for the introduction to "Biedermann from his book Manual Therapy in Children:"

I haven't looked up the information yet.

Always interested in learning parts of ADD.





Peripherals

mildadhd
12-08-13, 01:51 AM
...But again I must make the point that Play Therapy has little effect of ADHD itself. It can have an impact of some aspects of self control and acting out of feelings but that does not have a lot of impact on the symptoms themselves.

Keep in mind that ADHD kids, like any kid, have a lot of emotions going on that they do not understand nor can they put words to. Play Therapy helps them deal with that.

Dizfriz


Dizfriz,

ADD is sometimes referred to as lack of self regulation. (self control)

If PLAY can have a positive "impact of some aspects of self control and acting out of feelings"

It reads like your saying at least partly, that PLAY can "diminish ADHD and Facilitate the Construction of the Social Brain", to me?

Can PLAY Diminish ADHD and Facilitate the Construction of the Social Brain? -Panksepp


I am not saying ADD symptoms will simply be gone, but the severity of ADD, may in some cases be partly lessened, if the right conditions are present to satisfy the urge to PLAY freely, especially during early childhood, but not limited to.










Peripheral