View Full Version : all illness and disease is stress-related


SB_UK
11-26-13, 03:17 PM
Or to be more accurate ... ...

http://science.howstuffworks.com/life/inside-the-mind/human-brain/how-stress-works1.htm
Medical research suggests that up to 90 percent of all illness and disease is stress-related, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.


Noting almost immediate effects of stress alleviation on inflammation.

[1] asthma
[2] inflammatory pain in hands and feet (small joints and metatarsalgia)
[3] tennis elbow type inflammation

And if we lose our arms, hands and feet ... ... nearly everything else becomes impossible - particularly exercise.

SB_UK
11-26-13, 03:25 PM
And again (http://istpp.org/coalition/stress_prevention.html):
"Leading medical experts estimate that 90% of disease is caused or complicated by stress."

-*-

If we want to prevent all disease - we simply need to eliminate (di)stressors.

There's only 1 (di)stressor - lack of free availability to survival essentials.

Minimal food / shelter as a birthright globally will remove the only important distressor; the major diseases which afflict us will thereafter be solved.

mildadhd
11-26-13, 03:37 PM
And again (http://istpp.org/coalition/stress_prevention.html):
"Leading medical experts estimate that 90% of disease is caused or complicated by stress."

-*-

If we want to prevent all disease - we simply need to eliminate (di)stressors.

There's only 1 (di)stressor - lack of free availability to survival essentials.

Minimal food / shelter as a birthright globally will remove the only important distressor; the major diseases which afflict us will thereafter be solved.

I think there are 3,

emotional attachment, food and shelter.



Peripherals

dvdnvwls
11-26-13, 04:07 PM
Exercise is stressful and yet exercise improves or cures some illness and disease conditions.

BellaVita
11-26-13, 04:08 PM
If my disorders which cause stress could be cured, I can imagine the amount of deep stress that would be alleviated...

BellaVita
11-26-13, 04:11 PM
Exercise is stressful and yet exercise improves or cures some illness and disease conditions.

Isn't that because there are different forms of stress - positive and negative?

I don't know the exact terms...

Some are beneficial to our immune systems, some aren't. And yet, too much of the beneficial stress can become harmful.

It's all about balance.

addthree
11-26-13, 04:53 PM
You need some stress. Otherwise humans would fail as a species.
It may not the type of stress but the way people handle it.
Where do you get this information? .coms are not reliable sources.

midnightstar
11-26-13, 06:08 PM
What about illnesses like cancer? Meningitis in babies? Are they caused by stress?

Nachons
11-27-13, 03:28 AM
Medical research suggests that up to 90 percent of all illness and disease is stress-related, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Acdc.gov+stress

Common sense would dictate that this is patently false. Regardless, I looked for the quote on their website and it's nowhere to be found. Nor could I find anyone citing any particular medical expert.

They do mention that 60-90% of doctor's office visits are stress-related, but that's statistical data, not medical research.

[2] inflammatory pain in hands and feet (small joints and metatarsalgia)
[3] tennis elbow type inflammation

"Stress" to joints isn't the same as mental stress... :eyebrow:

If we want to prevent all disease - we simply need to eliminate (di)stressors.

But stress is our body telling us that there's a problem with our lifestyle. Like physical pain telling you to pull your hand away from a burning stove, stress tells you to pull back from the demands you're making of your mind and body.

There's only 1 (di)stressor - lack of free availability to survival essentials.

Minimal food / shelter as a birthright globally will remove the only important distressor; the major diseases which afflict us will thereafter be solved.

What about... microbes and viruses? Fungi and parasites? They'll still be there, right?

SB_UK
11-27-13, 11:51 AM
I think there are 3,

emotional attachment, food and shelter.



Peripherals

This could well be true ... ... I guess the only point I'd make is that a world which provides food/shelter for all - 'd be a world in which emotional attachment would occur by default - if you see what I mean.

That is - that we don't physically need to force people to 'love thy neighbour' - all we need is a societal infrastructure which gives all people food/shelter through co-operative working (absence of money/law etc) ... ... and 'love thy neighbour' (Peripheral - emotional attachment) 'd just kick in, without any intervention required.

SB_UK
11-27-13, 11:56 AM
If my disorders which cause stress could be cured, I can imagine the amount of deep stress that would be alleviated...

Yes stress cause disorders and disorders cause stress.

But if you eliminate the (di)stress which causes disorders which leads to stress - then all of our problems go away.

I'm 100% sure that the cause of our stress is simply the anti-social lives we lead by virtue of money/law enforcing social hierarchy.
Eliminate money/law and you'll find that equality in the material domain - will lead to elimination of the only distressor which we need to consider.

SB_UK
11-27-13, 11:59 AM
Isn't that because there are different forms of stress - positive and negative?

I don't know the exact terms...

Some are beneficial to our immune systems, some aren't. And yet, too much of the beneficial stress can become harmful.

It's all about balance.

Barliman introduced me to the terms:
eustress - good stress
distress - bad stress

Epidemiology teaches us which is good and which is bad stress.

Furthermore - absence of exercise/too much exercise = distress.
There's a point between the two which identifies the 'eustressful' sweet point - which we should aim to attain.

BellaVita
11-27-13, 12:04 PM
Barliman introduced me to the terms:
eustress - good stress
distress - bad stress

Epidemiology teaches us which is good and which is bad stress.

Furthermore - absence of exercise/too much exercise = distress.
There's a point between the two which identifies the 'eustressful' sweet point - which we should aim to attain.

Thanks for explaining. :)

SB_UK
11-27-13, 12:07 PM
You need some stress. Otherwise humans would fail as a species.
It may not the type of stress but the way people handle it.
Where do you get this information? .coms are not reliable sources.

See post above about eustress/distress.

There's a very recent shift in the medical literature and general literature towards seeing the tremendous impact of stress on human disease.

Here's one of the papers I've cited here many times over (PNAS):
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/03/26/1118355109.abstract

Haha! Not seen this paper before ... ...
This is comical - I've just left these two chaps ... ... ...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19482216

-*-

Anyway - definitely true ... .... but don't expect anybody in medicine to accept this idea - because it renders the entire discipline redundant.

That is - that the common chronic psych. stressor of inequality becomes the root of pretty much every disease that human beings are fighting for a solution to.

Sir Michael Marmot was on TV yesterday describing the scandalous conditions which Amazon expects its staff to work under; his Whitehall study gives us the precise basis to human disease.

Social hierarchy - at work and in money.

SB_UK
11-27-13, 12:42 PM
What about illnesses like cancer? Meningitis in babies? Are they caused by stress?

Cancer - yes.
Infectious disease susceptibility - yes.

If you look at the link above (PNAS) you'll find ... ...
-aaarghhh - too dry reading the publication - just a sec - there's a simpler page which summarises in clean English - their findings ... ...

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/04/120402162546.htm
How Stress Influences Disease: Study Reveals Inflammation as the CulpritAnd if you look - they use increased infectious disease susceptibility as the consequence of stress ... ...In turn, those with the inability to regulate the inflammatory response were more likely to develop colds when exposed to the virus.So - in brief - exact same mechanism shared between viral meningitis and flu virus.

And throw in the major 'lung' killers from Barnes/Adcock (above)
"Glucocorticoid resistance or insensitivity is a major barrier to the treatment of several common inflammatory diseases-including chronic obstructive pulmonary disease and acute respiratory distress syndrome; it is also an issue for some patients with asthma, rheumatoid arthritis, and inflammatory bowel disease."
- note - I no longer have any access to the full text in most of these articles.

Don't really need it though ... ... can get away with well known journals and abstracts.

SB_UK
11-27-13, 01:39 PM
What about illnesses like cancer? Meningitis in babies? Are they caused by stress?

From previously (so many threads on this subject on-site ... ...)
- the key connection is -

Stress (chronic cortisol secretion) -> leads to -> oxidative stress
Oxidative stress (chronic) -> leads to -> cancer/premature ageing most notably.

Loads of papers can be cited in evidence - that's the argument, though - in synopsis.

SB_UK
11-27-13, 01:55 PM
https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Acdc.gov+stress

Common sense would dictate that this is patently false. Regardless, I looked for the quote on their website and it's nowhere to be found. Nor could I find anyone citing any particular medical expert.

They do mention that 60-90% of doctor's office visits are stress-related, but that's statistical data, not medical research.



"Stress" to joints isn't the same as mental stress... :eyebrow:



But stress is our body telling us that there's a problem with our lifestyle. Like physical pain telling you to pull your hand away from a burning stove, stress tells you to pull back from the demands you're making of your mind and body.



What about... microbes and viruses? Fungi and parasites? They'll still be there, right?


I hate confrontational posts because I've been here many times over the last 10 years - and I find that no matter what evidence I cite - more 'quibbles' are raised ... ...
no reward replying to quibblers ... ...

You see:
Common sense would dictate that this is patently false.is nonsense.
There's physiology and there's 'not' physiology (which is a definition of stress).
Physiological stress represents a wide range of physical responses that occur as a direct effect of a stressor causing an upset in the homeostasis of the body.

So stress -> physiological imbalance = pathophysiology.

The ONLY thing that could be responsible for pathophysiology (pan-disease) is stress.

So - common sense dictates that if anything could be responsible for all of the major diseases which mankind currently reports - then chronic stress (distress) particularly through psychological stress
- the psych. stress of living in violently unequal times

- as the only *single* factor which I could imagine we could pin on all illnesses/disease.

SB_UK
11-27-13, 02:06 PM
Now the 2 key stories in the Times from yesterday and today - were of 'men and stress' and today 'the new Pope makes a stand on the violent inequality of our time'.
Also in today's newspaper was a story about the tremendous workplace stress which Amazon (that internet company) workers are placed under.

Distil the message from these key news stories - and there's only one idea coming through.

(Material world) Inequality supported by money is a bad thing - all that I'm doing is connecting the stress from living in a violently unequal global society - into the so-called diseases of Western style living (from ADHD, asthma, anxiety, autism through to the other end of the alphabet) ... ... ...

And if we look at Michael Marmot (UCL, epidemiologist) who was interviewed on TV yesterday about the hideous conditions of work suffered by Amazon (Internet corporation) workers ... ... and his work on The Whitehall Study

- we see that (and simply) any form of social hierarchy in the material domain (ie of power, money, ownership)
- KILLS US.

Particularly the poor people (ie the majority) at the base of the Marxist pyramid.

IE if you are poor or probably even middle class and don't fight for material world equality (ie a world without money and law) - you're contributing to your own premature disease/death etc ... ... ... to the nasty diseases of cancer, Alzheimer's, T2D, obesity and so many more ... ... ...

The irony - we've the cure for every major disease and no way of introducing it - in a world which is controlled by a select few with ever so much money.

The 1% as such ... ... ...

mildadhd
11-27-13, 03:07 PM
Thanks for reintroducing Eustress and Distress.

Side Note, I was discussing general topics of distress with a trauma specialist, and he was fascinated that I knew a little about Porges work. (also introduced to me here at ADDF, by Barilman). It seems Porges ideas in combination with a few other top researchers is involved in the trauma specialist treatment approaches.



A thought that occurred to me today...

Some members want to help ADD families, by avoiding emotionally distressful topics that might be misinterpreted as "blaming" the parents.


While other members also want to help ADD families, by discussing emotionally distressful and eustressful topics, that might help lessen severity or maybe even prevent ADD, (in some cases)


My point is that it seems all members want to help people, but have different approaches/ideas on how to help people.





Peripherals

someothertime
11-27-13, 03:11 PM
Marx noted that this was not an intentional process; rather, no individual or even state can go against the forces of economy.

"a crisis that will end in its destruction, in the return of modern society to a higher form of the most archaic type – collective production and appropriation"

mildadhd
11-27-13, 03:28 PM
I was wondering if accommodating people with impairments, with a job and salary would help?

I don't mean all people, but people that have disabilities, if they request accommodations.

If a person is unable to work/requires accommodations, why not create jobs with fair salary to fit their abilities?

A two tier system?

I don't know, not versed on the subjects.




Peripherals

SB_UK
11-27-13, 03:36 PM
Marx noted that this was not an intentional process; rather, no individual or even state can go against the forces of economy.

"a crisis that will end in its destruction, in the return of modern society to a higher form of the most archaic type collective production and appropriation"

Good post.

No-one's getting off this ride until the train comes off the tracks.

SB_UK
11-27-13, 03:48 PM
My point is that it seems all members want to help people, but have different approaches/ideas on how to help people.
Peripherals

How'd you tell the difference between a 'shill' on-line review from somebody who's selling some item and a true Amazon review from somebody who genuinely likes it.
They're both wording their responses as if to help people.
And - there's a chance that in both cases - the subjective and the objective opinion actually could be correct.

Thing is - is that you can only genuinely want to help people if you're independent ie have no vested interest.

And academia is built on vested interest ie seeing that your speciality is considered more highly than competitor specialities - and so gets its grant funded.

I'm simply suggesting that the mechanism of funding scientific research, the world around - encourages the generation of people with fundamentalist, evangelical fervour for their chosen speciality

- and not a balanced mental approach towards solving the problem.

SB_UK
11-27-13, 03:52 PM
I was wondering if accommodating people with impairments, with a job and salary would help?

I don't mean all people, but people that have disabilities, if they request accommodations.

If a person is unable to work/requires accommodations, why not create jobs with fair salary to fit their abilities?

A two tier system?

I don't know, not versed on the subjects.

Peripherals

Too hard ... ... work for personal reward
- all essential tasks (food/shelter) performed in co-operative structures.

So ... ... as a silly example ... ... if you're a window cleaner being small might mean you're disabled in relation to someone taller
- it all gets just a little complicated.

Co-operative working on life's essentials.
Volitional not-for-money corporation formation to perform any sustainable tasks you fancy.

SB_UK
11-27-13, 03:57 PM
My point is that it seems all members want to help people, but have different approaches/ideas on how to help people.


So I guess the point I'm making is that you can only help people if you're both objective and well informed.

SB_UK
11-27-13, 04:00 PM
And if you are ... ...

you'll find that ALL disease (being sniffed around by pharmaceutical corporations as money-spinners) is caused by social hierarchy on the level of the material world (money, power, ownership).

The flat structure has nothing to do with making all people the same - it's to create a level playing field (material world) so that people can becomes as good a player as they can.

The vast majority are consigned to live dreadful lives in and around the poverty line
- without any chance of making anything of themselves
- their entire lives spent just plain trying to survive.

Unmanagable
11-27-13, 04:44 PM
I've been slowly learning about, and trying as best I can to reverse, or at least not propel, the negative effects of stressing my body out by expecting it to fully and healthily function on food-like substances that it does not recognize and cannot properly process.

These lessons have come with a severe amount of physical pain that may or may not be "fixable", but can at least be made a little less intense. Regardless of the amount of scientific studies anyone can link to, I'm one of the examples that not getting too hung up only on what can be scientifically referenced as "good enough" per others vs. what can be experienced by giving it a try is worth pursuing whenever possible. Always research and be sure you are dealing with someone reputable and not just in it for the money, though!!!!!! (as with anything)

I almost didn't go to a local registered dietitian for guidance because of a variety of "snake oil" naysayers, talking myself out of it based on other peoples' negative discussions, and not expecting any better results than I've found via medically and through therapy thus far.

But, it's one of the best moves I've made as far as getting my physical foundation in better working order. I was able to meet and speak with her prior to committing, she shares her reference materials freely, and she works with folks alternatively instead of solely through the monetary system. A rare jewel in these times, indeed, but I wouldn't have found her at all had I not been at least open to the ideas.

Inflammation has been the main culprit with the majority of my ailments and being able to more successfully manage that makes almost everything else I have to do to take care of me a little less daunting.

I guess my point in sharing this is to "stress" (ha!) that the level of stress our bodies endure on a cellular level via substances it doesn't recognize and can't healthily process, and how negatively it effects us overall, but is mostly unseen, not believed, mistaken for something else, or not felt for many years down the road, is a very critical thing to pay closer attention to as a society (starting with individual and local community), instead of less as so many folks seem to advocate. Prevention at a much earlier time in my life (like 30 years or so ago) would have been ideal, but..................

Sorry for the length of the post and the sentences. Gathering and condensing my thoughts wasn't happening so well with this one. :)

Corina86
11-27-13, 04:58 PM
You do have some points, SB, but how do you explain that some people who are very high on the food chain still get ill? Even billionaires get cancer sometimes and they don't have to worry even just one bit about survival. I believe that stressed can be caused by an infinite amount of factors and financial ones might not always on top of the list.

ginniebean
11-27-13, 10:15 PM
You do have some points, SB, but how do you explain that some people who are very high on the food chain still get ill? Even billionaires get cancer sometimes and they don't have to worry even just one bit about survival. I believe that stressed can be caused by an infinite amount of factors and financial ones might not always on top of the list.

That much greed has got to make ya sick.

Unmanagable
11-28-13, 12:50 AM
Attachment creates a lot of stress. I've become much more aware of that in myself. Billionaire status increases material attachments, for sure. You can't lose what you don't have, and they have a helluva lot to lose.

ginniebean
11-28-13, 02:17 AM
And if you are ... ...

you'll find that ALL disease (being sniffed around by pharmaceutical corporations as money-spinners) is caused by social hierarchy on the level of the material world (money, power, ownership).

The flat structure has nothing to do with making all people the same - it's to create a level playing field (material world) so that people can becomes as good a player as they can.

The vast majority are consigned to live dreadful lives in and around the poverty line
- without any chance of making anything of themselves
- their entire lives spent just plain trying to survive.

Just putting this out there.. maybe you find it interesting maybe you don't. .

Sometimes people like to talk of virtues like "love of humanity" and "responsibility" and things like that which point to a 'higher' or elevated nature that is possible for humans.

Then there are others who sneer at such talk of virtues and instead point to the fact that we're mammals, that we're animals and survival of the fittest dictates that we lie, steal, cheat and mistreat each other generally.

The latter is often wrapped up as enlightened and sophisticated and the former as naive and childish.

What I have to say is that we don't have love or responsibility or any of these virtures but it is a possiblity. If we loved each other, people wouldn't go hungry while we obsess over what some movie star is wearing or buy dresses for our dogs.

Responsibility, means seeing that something needs to be done and doing it without resisting that it's what is needed. Ideologies are forms of resistance and maintain us doing nothing.
l

Stress is often caused by 'resistance' and each person has their own particular barriers that stress them out. These virtues I was speaking of earlier are results of seeing thru the ideological miasma and directly seeing rather than thru 'the glass darkly'.


it seems to me you're simply saying we need love on this planet. Joy (not happiness) is the absence of stress. Peace is the result of the absense of stress. In a sane world the question would be asked. "How can we give birth to Joy?"

You live with physical pain each day and I think sometimes people don't notice when you say that. You're motivation is not theoretical, its actual. Together, maybe we'll discover something new. Maybe even become skillful with love.

dvdnvwls
11-28-13, 02:49 AM
I hate confrontational posts because I've been here many times over the last 10 years - and I find that no matter what evidence I cite - more 'quibbles' are raised ... ...
Sometimes they are quibbles. Sometimes they are pointing out serious or fatal flaws in what you're saying. Dismissing every disagreement as a "quibble" is the opposite of loving and is an attempt at controlling others.

Unmanagable
11-28-13, 03:36 AM
I'm quoting this for emphasis and appreciation. The bold text is a feeling I so often fail at trying to deflect whenever I'm made to feel that way, especially when it's the same individuals, repeatedly, regardless of the topic or arena. Thanks for expressing it so well.

Originally posted by ginniebean: Sometimes people like to talk of virtues like "love of humanity" and "responsibility" and things like that which point to a 'higher' or elevated nature that is possible for humans.

Then there are others who sneer at such talk of virtues and instead point to the fact that we're mammals, that we're animals and survival of the fittest dictates that we lie, steal, cheat and mistreat each other generally.

The latter is often wrapped up as enlightened and sophisticated and the former as naive and childish.

Fuzzy12
11-28-13, 04:03 AM
Sometimes people like to talk of virtues like "love of humanity" and "responsibility" and things like that which point to a 'higher' or elevated nature that is possible for humans.

Then there are others who sneer at such talk of virtues and instead point to the fact that we're mammals, that we're animals and survival of the fittest dictates that we lie, steal, cheat and mistreat each other generally.

The latter is often wrapped up as enlightened and sophisticated and the former as naive and childish.

.

Beautifully said, ginnie.

We are mammals, we are animals but that doesn't mean that we can't or shouldn't be good to each other. A lot of mammals live in herds and show care and consideration for each other. In fact, a lot of non mammalian animals live in huge groups (sorry, forgot the name of it, I've hardly slept) where every individual works for the survival of the group.

Survival of the fittest does not dictate that we lie, steal, cheat and mistreat each other. On the contrary. The human race would do a lot better (and survive for much longer) if we didn't do these things.

I don't understand this kind of attitude. I find it so sad when I hear parents tell their children that the world is a bad place and to survive in it, you need to be worse, you need to put yourself first and be smart and cunning at any cost. First of all, what fun is it to live with a world view like that and second, if everyone did that it would become kind of a self fulfilling prophecy and I can imagine that that is when the human race would rather quickly start dying out.

sarek
11-28-13, 04:26 AM
Just putting this out there.. maybe you find it interesting maybe you don't. .

Sometimes people like to talk of virtues like "love of humanity" and "responsibility" and things like that which point to a 'higher' or elevated nature that is possible for humans.

Then there are others who sneer at such talk of virtues and instead point to the fact that we're mammals, that we're animals and survival of the fittest dictates that we lie, steal, cheat and mistreat each other generally.

The latter is often wrapped up as enlightened and sophisticated and the former as naive and childish.

What I have to say is that we don't have love or responsibility or any of these virtures but it is a possiblity. If we loved each other, people wouldn't go hungry while we obsess over what some movie star is wearing or buy dresses for our dogs.

Responsibility, means seeing that something needs to be done and doing it without resisting that it's what is needed. Ideologies are forms of resistance and maintain us doing nothing.
l

Stress is often caused by 'resistance' and each person has their own particular barriers that stress them out. These virtues I was speaking of earlier are results of seeing thru the ideological miasma and directly seeing rather than thru 'the glass darkly'.


it seems to me you're simply saying we need love on this planet. Joy (not happiness) is the absence of stress. Peace is the result of the absense of stress. In a sane world the question would be asked. "How can we give birth to Joy?"

You live with physical pain each day and I think sometimes people don't notice when you say that. You're motivation is not theoretical, its actual. Together, maybe we'll discover something new. Maybe even become skillful with love.

Beautifully said Ginnie.

We will remain animals as long as we do not realise that we can truly become human and actively explore how to do that.
Each of us who realises the terror of the human situation should actively strive to become a virus of love so we can spread the disease of compassion. For that, we need to become intimately aware of how our inner world works.

The physical world and the inner world intimately interact. Knowing more about ourselves will help us be what we should be but on the other hand removing as many primary stressors from our exoteric environment as we can will make it much easier to pursue that course. If you are fighting for life, you do not have the time or even the inclination to study yourself.

Both our inner worlds (us) and our outer worlds(our environment) each form a Maslow pyramid of their own with basic survival at the bottom and spiritual pursuits at the top. The external and internal pyramids interact and reinforce each other.

In short:

Giving everybody basic safety increases the number of people who will be able to become actively awake. Outer => inner

Having more people who are actively awake, increases the possibility of achieving that basic security. Inner => outer

Thus it is necessary to take both the inner and the outer path in tandem. They are mutually reinforcing.

meadd823
11-28-13, 06:41 AM
Sometimes they are quibbles. Sometimes they are pointing out serious or fatal flaws in what you're saying. Dismissing every disagreement as a "quibble" is the opposite of loving and is an attempt at controlling others.

Seriously- I do not think it was seen as a quibble because of what was said but how it was said.

Data scientific evidence - how about biology - Last I heard it was still considered science. My source quote


Life Event, Stress and Illness (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3341916/)


Studies have shown that short-term stress boosted the immune system, but chronic stress has a significant effect on the immune system that ultimately manifest an illness. It raises catecholamine and suppressor T cells levels, which suppress the immune system. This suppression, in turn raises the risk of viral infection.

Stress also leads to the release of histamine, which can trigger severe broncho-constriction in asthmatics.

Stress increases the risk for diabetes mellitus, especially in overweight individuals, since psychological stress alters insulin needs. Stress also alters the acid concentration in the stomach, which can lead to peptic ulcers, stress ulcers or ulcerative colitis. Chronic stress can also lead to plaque buildup in the arteries (atherosclerosis), especially if combined with a high-fat diet and sedentary living. The correlation between stressful life events and psychiatric illness is stronger than the correlation with medical or physical illness.

The relationship of stress with psychiatric illness is strongest in neuroses, which is followed by depression and schizophrenia. There is no scientific evidence of a direct cause-and-effect relationship between the immune system changes and the development of cancer. However, recent studies found a link between stress, tumour development and suppression of natural killer (NK) cells, which is actively involved in preventing metastasis and destroying small metastases.

~Underlining and bolding in source quote added by me~

Got it . . .. this breaks it down to a cellular level if you want more biological explanation of how stress changes the body in a way that increases one sustainability to illness read the article.

If you are gong to quote some thing in a rebuttal especially using a condescending tone do look into the context more carefully - it helps

https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Acdc.gov+stress

Common sense would dictate that this is patently false. Regardless, I looked for the quote on their website and it's nowhere to be found. Nor could I find anyone citing any particular medical expert.

They do mention that 60-90% of doctor's office visits are stress-related, but that's statistical data, not medical research.



"Stress" to joints isn't the same as mental stress... :eyebrow:


The article I read specifically stated

It is estimated that 80% to 90% of all industrial accidents are related to personal problem and employees’ inability to handle stress (6).

Note the little number 6 at the end - click that and you will be taken straight to the source that made this statement

6. Jansen M. Emotional disorders in the labour force: Prevalence, costs, prevention and rehabilitation. Internat Labour Rev. 1986;125:605–15.

The entire thing has 64 reference sources by all means you are welcome to knock your self out. . . reading through them.


Stress to the joints :confused:- The entire article is about Life Event, Stress and Illness the opening line to the paragraph is . . .

The morbidity and mortality due to stress-related illness is alarming.Emotional stress is a major contributing factor to the six leading causes of death in the United States: cancer, coronary heart disease, accidental injuries, respiratory disorders, cirrhosis of the liver and suicide. According to statistics from Meridian Stress Management Consultancy in the U.K, almost 180,000 people in the U.K die each year from some form of stress-related illness

But stress is our body telling us that there's a problem with our lifestyle. Like physical pain telling you to pull your hand away from a burning stove, stress tells you to pull back from the demands you're making of your mind and body.



What about... microbes and viruses? Fungi and parasites? They'll still be there, right?

The difference between good stress and bad stress and how stress makes us more sustainable to become ill from microbes and virus are covered in the first source paragraph in this post. . .

Nachons
11-29-13, 04:07 AM
I find that no matter what evidence I cite - more 'quibbles' are raised ... ...
'howstuffworks.com' doesn't really count as evidence. I don't think it makes a single citation itself.

There's physiology and there's 'not' physiology (which is a definition of stress).

So stress -> physiological imbalance = pathophysiology.

The ONLY thing that could be responsible for pathophysiology (pan-disease) is stress.

I don't understand. Are you calling the immune response a disease in itself? Don't microbes play even the smallest fraction of a part in pathology?

Or, are you including these in your definition of 'stress', i.e. not the mental state? If so this is all spitting in the wind.

So - common sense dictates that if anything could be responsible for all of the major diseases which mankind currently reports - then chronic stress (distress) particularly through psychological stress
- the psych. stress of living in violently unequal times

- as the only *single* factor which I could imagine we could pin on all illnesses/disease.When you get a nasty cut and don't properly sterilize it, it becomes infected. When you spend a lot of time with a sick person, you're very likely to get whatever sickness they have.

In both these cases, it makes zero sense to say that the disease or sickness following is because of psychological stress due to societal strains on one's ego.

Seriously- I do not think it was seen as a quibble because of what was said but how it was said.

If this is the case then forgive me, SB; the link posted was not evidence and I asked questions so you could clarify whether or not you agreed with them.

Data scientific evidence - how about biology - Last I heard it was still considered science. My source quote

Life Event, Stress and Illness (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3341916/)
...




This is all well and good. I've also read that stress makes you more likely to get sick, along with a host of other problems. And that's the title of the thread.

However, the OP goes on to say this in the very next post:

If we want to prevent all disease - we simply need to eliminate (di)stressors.

This is utter nonsense, unless you qualify it with "...including pathogens (e.g. bacteria, fungi, viruses, prions, etc)".

Saying that stress makes you more likely to get sick isn't the same as saying stress is the reason you get sick. That's like saying a ball falls when you drop it because you let go of it, completely ignoring gravitational attraction.

If you are gong to quote some thing in a rebuttal especially using a condescending tone do look into the context more carefully - it helpsTu quoque, my friend.

It is estimated that 80% to 90% of all industrial accidents are related to personal problem and employees’ inability to handle stress (6).Are industrial accidents diseases now?

Stress to the joints :confused:- The entire article is about Life Event, Stress and Illness the opening line to the paragraph is . . . Like I said. I wasn't clear on what SB meant by 'stress', which has a number of distinct definitions.

meadd823
11-29-13, 04:48 AM
I am unsure why my agreement or disagreement with SB matters - I saw your initial response as being condescending.

Some of his points I agree with others I do not - He tends toward the extreme but some of it is his writing style. I accept him as he is . . . I see his opinion as being his I see those who see things differently as being their opinion diversity is not what bothers me


I do get annoyed when people speak to others whom they perceive as "too different" in condescending tones as if they are staring down their nose as they type.


Saying that stress makes you more likely to get sick isn't the same as saying stress is the reason you get sick. That's like saying a ball falls when you drop it because you let go of it, completely ignoring gravitational attraction.

I don't disagree with your rational at all however I would like you to consider another point of view

Using the ball analogy . . . .

Unless you let go of the ball it does not drop despite gravity -

One can not control gravity but one can control whether or not they release the ball


Gravity still exist but that aspect is not under our control therefore discussing it's existence may seem pointless to some folks. Yet for other folks not discussing gravity's effects is seen as presenting "half truths"

See what I mean????? The other person does not necessarily have to be wrong for you to be right.



We can't nor should we eliminate all bacteria,fungi yeast or virus - The human body contains more bacterial cells than it does human ones - fungi and yeast act to balance the bacteria other wise it would take over

Our brains are a type of virus that gained consciousness as far as I am concerned - No medical fact probably saw the matrix movies to many times :o

I know SB knows human biology so he is not going to suggest we get rid of micro-organisms because to do so would be the death of all life as we know it.

Getting rid of our bodies inability to deal with these natural occurrences is logical, decreasing stress posed by social demands is some thing SB and I agree on but how we go about this is where I have my opinion and he has his - no biggie.

I do appreciate your clarification, after reading it I am not really sure that you and SB actually disagree all that much . . . I actually see the disagreement as being mostly in semantics. He may see stress as having more of an effect upon our health but what disagreement you do have with SB is more along the lines of how much of an influence stress has. I do think there is agreement between the two of you that chronic stress is unhealthy.



I tend to become "testy" when I perceive some one to be using perceptual differences as an excuse to invalidate others, thus leading to the justification of condescending behavior . . . .Your response the second time was soo much better and I do appreciate that.

Diversity is not the enemy fear of it is!!!!

someothertime
11-29-13, 06:27 AM
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/265254.php
There are lots of ways to switch on ATF3 in cells, as well as the signals sent by cancer cells, a high-fat diet, radiation, chemotherapy, UV damage and even chronic behavioral stress, are others.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/02/110207165426.htm
"This tells us that individuals with the risk-associated NPY gene variant tend to activate this key brain region more than other people, even in the absence of stress and before psychiatric symptoms are present," says Mickey

http://www.thevisualmd.com/health_centers/wellness/manage_your_stress/inheriting_stress
The offspring of those who lived through a grave famine were found to have altered genes for obesity. These epigenetic effects, caused by stressful life events, have prompted researchers to explore what other stress damage may be inherited.

Nature's spring cleaning in action?

SB_UK
11-29-13, 10:35 AM
I've been slowly learning about, and trying as best I can to reverse, or at least not propel, the negative effects of stressing my body out by expecting it to fully and healthily function on food-like substances that it does not recognize and cannot properly process.

These lessons have come with a severe amount of physical pain that may or may not be "fixable", but can at least be made a little less intense. Regardless of the amount of scientific studies anyone can link to, I'm one of the examples that not getting too hung up only on what can be scientifically referenced as "good enough" per others vs. what can be experienced by giving it a try is worth pursuing whenever possible. Always research and be sure you are dealing with someone reputable and not just in it for the money, though!!!!!! (as with anything)

I almost didn't go to a local registered dietitian for guidance because of a variety of "snake oil" naysayers, talking myself out of it based on other peoples' negative discussions, and not expecting any better results than I've found via medically and through therapy thus far.

But, it's one of the best moves I've made as far as getting my physical foundation in better working order. I was able to meet and speak with her prior to committing, she shares her reference materials freely, and she works with folks alternatively instead of solely through the monetary system. A rare jewel in these times, indeed, but I wouldn't have found her at all had I not been at least open to the ideas.

Inflammation has been the main culprit with the majority of my ailments and being able to more successfully manage that makes almost everything else I have to do to take care of me a little less daunting.

I guess my point in sharing this is to "stress" (ha!) that the level of stress our bodies endure on a cellular level via substances it doesn't recognize and can't healthily process, and how negatively it effects us overall, but is mostly unseen, not believed, mistaken for something else, or not felt for many years down the road, is a very critical thing to pay closer attention to as a society (starting with individual and local community), instead of less as so many folks seem to advocate. Prevention at a much earlier time in my life (like 30 years or so ago) would have been ideal, but..................

Sorry for the length of the post and the sentences. Gathering and condensing my thoughts wasn't happening so well with this one. :)

Sorry - way behind on this thread now.

Thanks for your observations on gluten.

I'm really trying hard to do a near zero carb/zero GI vegan diet.

Gluten/casein are definitely triggers for me - and makes sense give their opioid like effects.
Sugar and caffeine are problems also.

Down to veggies, nuts, seeds, fruit (not much) and oats when I'm desperate.

Even started reacting to MCT oil ... ... ...

-*-

So what's going on ?

[1] Di(stress) from social hierarchy leads to stress
[2] Stress leads to comfort eating (high GI, wheat, casein, animal protein, sugar, sweet)

... ... and then disease and plenty of it.

The combination of (Di)stress in interaction with Diet is where we're required to work.

However - it still remains that (DI)stress is causal ... ... people wouldn't be clamouring for treacle and toffee beef patties drizzled in a cigarette ash and alcohol gravy ... ... if they weren't (di)stressed.

And just to re-inforce the connection to the study posted by Peripheral entitled 'Rat park'.

In 'rat park' animals did not elect for the stress relieving drugs when they weren't stressed.

-*-

We're in very serious need of realising what we're so (di)stressed about - there're shortly to be 100 million Type 2 Diabetics in India (a poor country!) ... ... there's a global problem

- and the only solution (which'll need to be global) is a change of the global economic system for one which does not involve money.

When the rats were not (di)stressed they did not exhibit drug-seeking behaviours.

SB_UK
11-29-13, 11:02 AM
ps I can fast easily when I'm not stressed.

It's very difficult, however, when stressed to fast.

The benefits of fasting are tremendous ... ... but what's the point of telling people who're so stressed (even if they don't realise it) - that routine fasting is not an attainable goal.

To re-iterate - fasting is relatively straight-forward when NOT under stress.

SB_UK
11-29-13, 11:05 AM
Numerous studies have shown that the brain molecule neuropeptide Y (NPY) helps to restore calm after stressful events.

These studies, collectively, marked the beginning of the role of NPY in orexigenesis or food intake.Increase stress -> Increase NPY -> Increase food intake
To re-iterate - fasting is relatively straight-forward when NOT under stress.

DISTRESS -> gotta' eat -> obesity/T2D

As simple as that.

T2D is currently bankrupting the world's health systems.

T2D and Obesity are wholly preventable ... ... but NOT in a world which is DIstressful.

SB_UK
11-29-13, 11:12 AM
The offspring of those who lived through a grave famine were found to have altered genes for obesity. These epigenetic effects, caused by stressful life events, have prompted researchers to explore what other stress damage may be inherited.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_famine_of_1944
found that the children of pregnant women exposed to famine were more susceptible to diabetes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diabetes), obesity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obesity), cardiovascular disease, microalbuminuria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microalbuminuria) and other health problems.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_famine_of_1944#cite_note-6)

SB_UK
11-29-13, 11:20 AM
atf3
psychological stress is linked to breast cancer aggressiveness ... ...

SB_UK
11-29-13, 11:33 AM
Bringing it all together.

Psychological stress accounted for by the global economic system (ie requiring money to survive) leads to all human suffering.


Yes - but what about distress in (SOT) people who're exposed to too much UV?
Well - the last group I've seen who were exposed to too much UV were shipped over from Bangladesh to work in the Middle East in the baking sun; they were only there because they needed money - if they didn't need it - then they wouldn't, of course, be there.

Yes - but what about distress from industrial toxins?
Well - without money, there wouldn't be any incentive for companies to cut corners in order to make a fast buck - and so this problem 'd be solved.

Yes - but what about distress through infectious diseases ?
Well -I've just cited a paper which shows increased infectious disease susceptibility when stressed, we know that money makes the poor poorer and so less able to generate 'clean' methods for waste handling etc and we know that stress leads to an unrelenting demand for animal products - where animals are kept in infectious agent selection conditions (eg bird flu)
- and so there're 3 examples of how infectious diseases can be overcome through elimination money/elimination (psych.) DI(stress).

Yes - but what about distress from car accidents ?
Well - we can't all have cars (we literally all cannot have cars) - but we can all travel the planet using public transport (trains); eliminating money and sharing 'd combat car accidents and the rest ... ... ... we've the technology now to introduce super fast and super safe train networks.

Yes - but what about distress through sedentary living ?
Well - I think you'll find that distress leads to lethargy, and that alleviating the one distressor of money (globally) will reinvigorate people.

Yes - but what about ... ... ?
Well - I could list every DIstressor - but surely you've gotten the point by now.

SB_UK
11-29-13, 11:36 AM
all illness and disease is [DI]stress-related

is the summary.

SB_UK
11-29-13, 11:40 AM
Why am I tired all the time ? (http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/tiredness-and-fatigue/Pages/why-am-I-tired.aspx)

“It’s unusual to find anything physically wrong. Most of the time, fatigue is linked with mood and the accumulation of lots of little stresses in life,” says Dr Shah.

SB_UK
11-29-13, 11:43 AM
There is only really 1 stress in life:
Money

- the other (di)stressors simply follow.

Cut out money (as a requirement for survival) - and the rest (of the distressors) will fade.

SIMPLE.

SB_UK
11-29-13, 11:51 AM
Perhaps it's better to suggest that there's only really 1 stress in life:
The love/desire of money.

Overcome it - in an environment where you don't need it - and you're away.
Of course - overcoming it in an environment in which you don't need it ... is so much simpler.

Overcoming it - in an environment where you are absolutely required to need it - is deeply stressful.

How can you earn money ? when you've lost the love/desire for money.

And where all people know - that the love/desire of money is the root of all evil - that is - that loss of the love/desire of money is the goal.

SB_UK
11-29-13, 11:57 AM
And so ... ... the root to the entire body of medical research is complete eradication of human suffering (disease ...etc...) by simply eliminating the need of money for survival.

You don't need a big computer, fancy mathematical software, a large centrifuge, well-stocked chemical cupboard etc etc etc
- the answer to solving all disease is KEY DISTRESSOR elimination through lifting the absolute requirement of/for money for survival.
... all illness and disease is love/desire AND/OR [KEY DI]stre$$-caused

You need to lose the desire [the outcome of a proper ('Systems') education not a Western-style ('molecular') education] in an environment where the desire (not the world we currently live in) can be lost.

Fuzzy12
11-29-13, 01:01 PM
There is only really 1 stress in life:
Money

- the other (di)stressors simply follow.

Cut out money (as a requirement for survival) - and the rest (of the distressors) will fade.

SIMPLE.

That's rubbish. Money matters can be stressful but it's rubbish that money is the only cause of stress in life for everyone. Maybe it's true for you but not for everyone. In my case, most of my stress is not related to money but to people, myself included. My stressors would stress me on Mount Athos as well, probably more than in other places.

SB_UK
11-29-13, 01:28 PM
That's rubbish. Money matters can be stressful but it's rubbish that money is the only cause of stress in life for everyone. Maybe it's true for you but not for everyone. In my case, most of my stress is not related to money but to people, myself included. My stressors would stress me on Mount Athos as well, probably more than in other places.

No - that's secondary - and what worries me is that you can't connect the dots for yourself.

Think - love of money is the root of all ... {google it if you don't know} ... and being surrounded by {} people is what you're describing.

"You don't complain about obesity if there's no food"
- obesity occurs secondarily to eating more food than you require.

Your idea is stating that you are upset because you can't (because of your obesity) fit into a train seat - but it's nothing to do with food intake.
In fact - you're suggesting that it's rubbish that your obesity could be related to your food intake.

I can't take you any more slowly through this simple idea - you're going to need to connect the dots up for yourself.

Really simple logic ... ... a kiddy could understand the sentence above ... ...

SB_UK
11-29-13, 01:37 PM
Just in case google is beyond you.

Here's the kinda' thing.

Money sickens our minds, poisons our thoughts, even poisons our faith, leading us down the path of jealousy, quarrels, suspicion and conflict. While money begins by offering a sense of wellbeing, if we are not careful wealth can quickly lead to vanity, self-importance and the sin of pride.Now imagine what it'd be like around a spectrum of people like that.

Would it be nice ?

Hmmm... ... such a difficult question.

I don't know - maybe we can find a medication which we can charge plenty for, or a gene which we use as a very expensive test of psychopathy.

The medic needs to be paid.

GO DIRECTLY TO QUOTE ABOVE

And none of this nonsense that 'you don't love it' - the opposite of love/desire is active repulsion.

You use it - You love it
- *you* are the problem.

Fuzzy12
11-29-13, 01:57 PM
No - that's secondary - and what worries me is that you can't connect the dots for yourself.

Think - love of money is the root of all ... {google it if you don't know} ... and being surrounded by {} people is what you're describing.

"You don't complain about obesity if there's no food"

Really simple logic ... ...

I'm sorry, I don't see the logic. What am I supposed to google? Love of money is the root of all what? Evil? So are you saying:

"Love of money is the root of all evil and being surrounded by evil people is what you're describing"

First of all, I didn't describe being surrounded by evil people. Of all people that stress me, I am probably the most evil. And second, I still don't see how the two are connected. The stress caused by the people around me has got absolutely nothing to do with money, and definitely not with a love for money.

I am not convinced that civilisation has found the best way to live yet and I'm not saying that money, or the love for it, never causes any problems. It does, but it's just one of many things that cause problems and stress.


"You don't complain about obesity if there's no food"


Again, I'm not sure I see the relation. You are right that I'm very unlikely to complain about obesity if there was no food. If there was no food I would be dead. Are you saying that money is like food? Well, if food is evil, then we all really are screwed. :scratch:

Ok, let me try to figure this out. Obesity is caused by an excessive intake of food (well, in a very simplified way). If there is no food you can't be obese and if there is no money then you can't have the set of problems that are caused by money. (So if my problems are caused by people, does that mean I should get rid of people?? Hm, you might have a point there ...;) )

Anyway, food is not the root cause of obesity. The mere existence of food does not necessarily mean that everyone who has to consume food will be obese. Overeating, eating the wrong food, lack of exercise, certain diseases, etc. are the cause of obesity. It's not the food itself but the human, in most cases, that is the problem.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that our current system, of which money is a part, is perfect. I don't know enough about economy, sociology, politics, etc. to really have a valid opinion on that.

What I do know is that even in a money-less world, I would still have problems and be stressed.

Fuzzy12
11-29-13, 02:06 PM
No - that's secondary - and what worries me is that you can't connect the dots for yourself.

Think - love of money is the root of all ... {google it if you don't know} ... and being surrounded by {} people is what you're describing.

"You don't complain about obesity if there's no food"
- obesity occurs secondarily to eating more food than you require.

Your idea is stating that you are upset because you can't (because of your obesity) fit into a train seat - but it's nothing to do with food intake.
In fact - you're suggesting that it's rubbish that your obesity could be related to your food intake.

I can't take you any more slowly through this simple idea - you're going to need to connect the dots up for yourself.

Really simple logic ... ... a kiddy could understand the sentence above ... ...

You've elaborated in your modified post but I still don't understand it. I'm sorry, I called your ideas rubbish. That was nasty and unnecessary.

The problem is that I'm trying to connect the dots but there is no picture emerging, just a lot of dots and lines.


Your idea is stating that you are upset because you can't (because of your obesity) fit into a train seat - but it's nothing to do with food intake.
In fact - you're suggesting that it's rubbish that your obesity could be related to your food intake.


No, I'm not. Using your analogy, I'm saying that obesity is related to food intake but food is not the root cause of obesity. If you get rid of food, you will get rid of obesity but that is because without food there will be no humans, irrespective of if they are underweight, normal weight, obese or whatever.

SB_UK
11-29-13, 02:10 PM
Ignore list being used - 8 entries

Fuzzy12
11-29-13, 02:16 PM
I'll just save my breath then :doh:

daveddd
11-29-13, 02:33 PM
we live in the matrix

weve been fooled into thinking what happiness is supposed to be

its wrong, all of it

Lunacie
11-29-13, 03:11 PM
Just in case google is beyond you.

Here's the kinda' thing.

Now imagine what it'd be like around a spectrum of people like that.

Would it be nice ?

Hmmm... ... such a difficult question.

I don't know - maybe we can find a medication which we can charge plenty for, or a gene which we use as a very expensive test of psychopathy.

The medic needs to be paid.

GO DIRECTLY TO QUOTE ABOVE

And none of this nonsense that 'you don't love it' - the opposite of love/desire is active repulsion.

You use it - You love it
- *you* are the problem.


Hm, wonder if Meadd will say anything about the condescending tone in this post?

SB_UK
11-29-13, 04:05 PM
we live in the matrix

weve been fooled into thinking what happiness is supposed to be

its wrong, all of it

Exactly.

Happiness isn't anything to do with material possessions.

SB_UK
11-29-13, 04:07 PM
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/10/071009164122.htm
Those studies reveal that stress plays a role in triggering or worsening depression and cardiovascular disease and in speeding the progression of HIV/AIDS.

psychiatric
physical
infectious

disease.

Stress covers 'em all.

SB_UK
11-29-13, 04:08 PM
The inflammatory pain is excruciating.

SB_UK
11-29-13, 04:13 PM
The only question is - why are ADDers so easily stressed ?

It's fairly clear that we've a different reward system.

And so - the solution must be that we're stressed because we're not able to use it.

Not able to transmit/receive reward using the social reward system.

What does that mean ?

SB_UK
11-29-13, 04:14 PM
I think there are 3,

emotional attachment, food and shelter.



Peripherals


And how do ADDers get it ?

SB_UK
11-29-13, 04:15 PM
... ... I guess the only point I'd make is that a world which provides food/shelter for all - 'd be a world in which emotional attachment would occur by default - if you see what I mean.



Meaning ?
Game over.

SB_UK
11-29-13, 04:17 PM
PLAY time always ends.

someothertime
11-29-13, 04:18 PM
.... or different reward system....


hyperfocus anyone?

SB_UK
11-30-13, 08:15 AM
.... or different reward system....


hyperfocus anyone?

Can't hyperfocus when (di)stressed.

SB_UK
04-28-14, 07:13 AM
Changing the emotional environment to suit the hypersensitive child is the first line of treatment in my opinion, and can be accomplished long before the age of 4*, that is what I am trying to promote.

That's an important part - but I think we need to:

Change emotional/physical environment to suit grandparent (epigenetic inheritance of stress will impact grandchild) eg Pembrey's SGP (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v10/n11/full/5200901a.html)
-- note this can be accomplished by eliminating the use of money / eliminating the need for money for a reasonable level of survival.

Change emotional/physical environment to suit mother (epigenetic inheritance of stress will impact child) particularly in pregnancy eg Dutch hunger winter (http://www.pnas.org/content/107/39/16757.full)
-- note this can be accomplished by eliminating the use of money / eliminating the need for money for a reasonable level of survival.

Change emotional/physical environment to suit newborn eg separation distress (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7633137) caused by parents needing to dump their kids in an unaffordable nursery in order to get back to a pointless job.
-- note this can be accomplished by eliminating the use of money / eliminating the need for money for a reasonable level of survival.

Change emotional/physical environment to suit child by having an educational system which doesn't traumatize individuals into eg 'pressure-cooker' educational environment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hikikomori)
-- note this can be accomplished by eliminating the use of money / eliminating the need for money for a reasonable level of survival.

Change emotional/physical environment to suit adult by having a workplace which doesn't traumatize working age individuals into despair eg association between physical health and money availability/economic collapse (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/03/130307124412.htm)
-- note this can be accomplished by eliminating the use of money / eliminating the need for money for a reasonable level of survival.

Change emotional/physical environment to suit grandparent by having a means of accessing money / alternative to secure happy survival essentials without money which doesn't traumatize working age individuals into despair, disease, premature death eg A lack of money in old age is the biggest fear for more than one in five of the general public (http://www.greypride.org.uk/profiles/blogs/6338145:BlogPost:33328).
-- note this can be accomplished by eliminating the use of money / eliminating the need for money for a reasonable level of survival.

And back around she blows:
"Change emotional/physical environment to suit grandparent (epigenetic inheritance of stress will impact grandchild) eg Pembrey's SGP ... ... ..."

SB_UK
04-28-14, 09:01 AM
I guess all we need to ask is what is the animal's ideal nature ? What is human nature ?
When is an animal optimally happy ?
What happens when animals are kept in sub-optimal conditions ? (See rat park experiment)

When is a human optimally happy ?

I don't think that we need to dissect out what makes a human being optimally happy - we can use common sense (juat look at what human beings do in their spare time, combined with epidemiology for confirmation).

So - yoga is liked and yoga associates with measures of health.
But alcohol is liked - though alcohol does not associate with any measure of health.

Whilst noting that we won't need to ban anything - we'll find that a world in which people are allowed to follow human nature (eg yoga - the animal naturally stretches - see cat and dog pose) will be one without stress - which won't push people reactively into stress relief (eg alcohol seeking behaviour).

We need to ask ourselves what stops people aligning their daily activities with human nature.
Compulsion.

They have to get up at 9am, to go into work, do something pointless for money in order to survive.

All that keeps human beings away from pursuit of what's in their own best interests is money/external reward.

Eliminate reward (money) - and people will naturally do - what people then find personally worthwhile.

-*-

I'm pretty sure that exercising in the sun with an animal is as good as it gets.
Maybe food's required - but food is dreary.

SB_UK
04-28-14, 09:34 AM
Presumably you can make animals do all manner of strange things for food (external reward).
As long as you have something (food) - the animal can be made to do the craziest of things for reward.
So - we all know that you train a dog by rewarding them with food when they've performed some trick as their owner 'd like.

Well that's human beings in a monetary-based economy.

The very vast majority to all people who work for money - are like dogs being given scooby snacks for riding a unicycle.

All people who work for money are doing nothing more than seals who're tossed fish when they jump through hoops.

If you've a mind - which most people don't - a mind means a locally/globally consistent set of instructions compatible with group and therefore also individual wellbeing - then you should only be able to do something if it's {right, rational, logical, moral}.

Money (that reward system) loses its power.

And you're free.