View Full Version : ADHD and Upper Cervical birth trauma


Kunga Dorji
12-07-13, 09:46 AM
Those of you who have known me for a while will maybe remember me posting on the huge improvements I experienced following an adjustment to the joint between my skull and neck in late 2009.

Those improvements were somewhat set back by a series of circumstances that caused me great personal distress, and caused me to tense up, exacerbating issues lower in my spine, but now all is settling.

The whole series of events has forced me to take an extended period off work.

However I have not been idle. While off work, i have been researching this issue in depth, and have come across a book called "Manual Therapy in Children" edited by a German Orthopedic Surgeon Heiner Biedermann M.D.

This book lays out in detail the likely linkage between acquired birth trauma to the upper cervical spine and many cases of ADHD.

I have spent months transcribing the guts of this book into word processed form, so I hope you will forgive me if I present a series of posts that lay that material out in detail.

This is a lot to take in, but it is well supported by published research (much of which is in German or French) and those who care to acquire the textbook will be able to verify this for themselves. Typing up all the references with all the strange European accents etc, was too great a task for me.

Kunga Dorji
12-07-13, 09:50 AM
List of Contributing Authors:

Manual Therapy in Children (Biedermann et al)


Editor Heiner Biedermann MD


Authors:
Lilia Babina MD
Professor Neuropsychiatric Dept Rehabilitation Clinic, Pjatigorsk, Russia
Heiner Biedermann MD
Practitioner in Conservative Orhopedics, Cologne, member of the European Workgroup for Manual Medicine, formerly surgeon at Surgical Department ot the University of WittenHerdecke and Schwertze Hospital, Germany
Bodo E.A Christ MD
Professor Institute of Anatomy and Cell Biology University of Frieberg, Germany
Arnd Friedrichs
Friendly Sensors AG, Jena, Germany
Onur Gŭntŭrkŭn PhD (Psychol)
Professor of Psychology, Faculty of Psychology, Ruhr-University Bochum, Bochum Germany
Akira Hori MD
Professor, Research Institute for Neurology and Psychiatry. National Nishi-Tattori Hospital Japan
Ruijin Huang PhD Dr Med
Institute of Anatomy and Cell Biology, University of Frieberg, Frieberg, Germany
Susanne Huber Dipl Phys Dr rer nat
Research Fellow, Friedrich Michscher Laboratory of the Max Planck Society Tŭbingen, Germany
Freddy Hueginin MD
Former Consultant at the University Clinic of Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation of Geneva, Switzerland
Michael Hyland BscPhD BcPsychol
Department of Psychology, University of Plymouth, Plymouth UK
S.Iliaeva MD
Rehabilitative and Physical Medicine, Cologne, Germany
Bärbel Kahl–Nicke PhD Dr Med (Dental)
Chair of Department of Orthodontics, College of Dentistry, University of Hamburg, Hamburg, Germany
L.E.Koch Dr Med
General Practitioner and member for the European Workgroup for Manual Medicine Eckernförde,
The Netherlands
Heike Korbermacher Dr Med (Dent)
Associate Professor, Department of Orthodontics, College of Dentistry, iversity of Hamburg, Hamburg, Germany
Hanne Kŭhnen
Paediatrician Kevalaer, Germany
H. Mohr
Physiotherapist and Member of the European Workgroup for Manual Medicine, Manual Therapist and lecturer, Ede, The Netherlands
R. Rädel MD
Orthopedic Surgeon, Herne, Germany
Jan- Marino Ramirez PhD
Professor of Anatomy and Neurosciences, Department of Anatomy, The University of Chicago, Chicago, Illinois.
Dorin Ritzmann Dr Med FMHG (Gynaecology/Obstetrics) Cert Med Hypnosis Trauma Therapy (EMDR Francine Shapiro)
Zurich Switzerland
R Sacher MD
Private Practitioner and member for the European Workgroup for Manual Medicine
Dortmend, Germany
Reinhard W. Thieler Dr Med FMH
Paediatrician Neuro-rehabilitation and member for the European Workgroup for Manual Medicine
Trimbach, Switzerland
Peter Waibel MD
Chief of Section, Radiology Department, Ostschweizer Kinderspital, St Gallen Switzerland



So- what we have here is a range of authors from a range of professions. Most are MDs, and this effort has been co-ordinated amongst a number of nations (Japan, USA,UK,Germany,Switzerland).

There is at least a wide enough range of credible allopathic opinion to be worth considering.

Biedermann's clinic alone has treated over 30,000 patients.

Amtram
12-07-13, 09:51 AM
I do hope you're not advocating chiropractic for infants. (http://www.realclearscience.com/blog/2012/05/take.html)

Kunga Dorji
12-07-13, 09:57 AM
I do hope you're not advocating chiropractic for infants. (http://www.realclearscience.com/blog/2012/05/take.html)

Amtram-- what I am advocating is manual therapy for infants.
Biedermann's credentials are rock solid.

I might add that I do hope you are not condemning my review of a book that condenses 40 years of research by multiple allopathic practitioners before I have even had the chance to roll out all the detail, and before anyone has had the opportunity to review what is written and to cross reference it and do their own due diligence before commenting.

Kunga Dorji
12-07-13, 09:58 AM
So- on to the review:

“Manual Therapy in Children” Ed Heiner Biedermann MD (2004, Elsevier)
is a comprehensive review of the effects of injury of the joint between the skull and the first cervical vertebra, the atlas (also known as the occipito-cervical junction) on newborns, and an exploration of the common clinical syndromes it causes in infants and in school age children. In particular it comments extensively on the relationship between this problem and the clinical syndrome of attention deficit disorder (ADD).


Injuries at the occipito- cervical junction have been the source of ongoing dispute between the chiropractic profession and the medical profession for many years. They have been known by many names, such as atlas subluxations, atlas malalignments and, by this group of authors, subocciptal strain.


This book is unusual in that it is a comprehensive review involving orthopedic surgeons, an obstetrician, professors in anatomy and cell biology, paediatricians, neuropaediatricains, psychologists, orthodontists, experts in rehabilitation medicine, a physiotherapist, a radiologist and a general practitioner.


The book is based on extensive clinical experience in the editor's clinic (over 30,000 patients over 40 years), supported by research and case studies and linked in with current research on neurological development and infant-caregiver attachment.


Biedermann outlines the causes of this injury:
It has been identified in 1/3 of all births in series he has studied.
It is especially associated with difficult births or birthing interventions.
It runs in families and appears to be associated with subtle heritable variations in the anatomy of the upper two cervical vertebrae.


He then goes on to outline profound effects that a small malalignment at the occipitocervical joint can have and the developmental sequence that follows if the injury is uncorrected.


In infants he describes KISS syndrome- Kinematic Instability due to Suboccipital Strain -a simple problem of obstructed movement in the upper neck causing blockage of head movements, then abnormal persistence of primitive reflexes (especially the asymmetrical atonic neck reflexes) leading to a baby either with a crooked neck progressing to a scoliosis along the whole spine or a baby whose neck is often stuck in hyperextension.
These infants are irritable, often colicky, physically sensitive and often dislike touch, they sleep poorly and are very difficult to settle.
They generally attach poorly to one breast, and their stereotyped sleeping positions often result in a flattened head. This issue, and the biomechanics of abnormal loading then often play out as orthodontic, and temporomandibular joint problems in adolescence and adulthood.


Symptoms usually subside about age 1 only to become more obvious at school.
As the patterns of reflex adjustment to the original injury progress, normal perceptuo-motor development and head control are delayed, often leading to infants who have normal intellectual development, but are highly frustrated by their sensorimotor delay.
The spinal problems worse, developing into hypertonicity down the whole of one side and a more severe S shaped scoliosis, with disturbed function of the sacroiliac joint, and a distorted chest wall leading to problems with the mechanics of breathing, or to a failure of the extensor reflexes in the back of the chest, leading to a permanently stooped posture.
The perceptual problems are significant, and Biedermann calls this syndrome “KIDD syndrome”
(KISS induced dysgnosia and dyspraxia)

Kunga Dorji
12-07-13, 10:05 AM
Progression from upper cervical birth trauma:



First school years
Difficulty at drawing and writing, and these are often refused
Global motor skills poor – often bad at sport- so socially unpopular
Often cover by playing the “clown”
Headaches mentioned more frequently


Preadolescence
Difficulty with social interaction in the foreground
Often described as being unable/unwilling to fulfil the requirements of school
Headache almost always mentioned: and is often a lead symptom


Broad symptoms:
-poor impression of themselves
-quickly frustrated and attempt to avoid new symptoms
-frequently late, and forget easily
-easily distracted, unable to concentrate on one topic.
-fear of heights


Physical Examination:
-Imbalanced muscular coordination- asymmetrical tonus of postural muscles
-shortened hamstrings
-kyphotic posture, hyperextension of the neck, hypotonus of the dorsal muscles of the thoracic area, often accompanied by orofacial hypotonia (blank- non reactive facial expression)
-Scoliotic posture on sitting and/or standing
-shoulders at different height
-sacroiliac joint mobility asymmetrical often with asymmetry of leg rotation
-balance tests insufficient and mostly asymmetrical
-insufficient co-ordination of vestibular input (eg standing with raised arms and closed eyes difficult)
-acoustic orientation difficult
-combination of arm and leg movements difficult
-fidgeting and restlessness, sometimes tics
-using eye control to compensate for lack of proprioception, refusing to lie down supine, clinging with one hand to the examination table
-decompensation when personal space is invaded by the examiner, wild resistance against palpation


Depending on the character of the child, some become hyperactive aggressive and uninhibited, and others withdraw.


KIDD and ADHD
As can be seen the full range of symptoms look very similar to ADHD, and Biedermann reports that the majority of referrals to his clinic for school age children are for ADD like symptoms.


While avoiding getting caught in controversies about a formal diagnosis, Biedermann reports that roughly 2/3 of such patients improve substantially after manual therapy, and usually make much more significant and sustained gains in academic performance than such children usually do with stimulant therapy.


KIDD – milder manifestations
Biedermann emphasises that milder cases exist, where the problems for the child are more of social difficulties caused by un-coordination, and that even some of these cases can master their coordination problems and even become elite athletes.


Adulthood
Unfortunately what this book cannot cover is the multitude of other problems that can be associated with the postural distortions caused by the KISS/KIDD progression.


Even in adults who reach good emotional and attentional regulation, many will develop back pain, uneven loading of the legs will cause premature osteoarthritis of the hips and knees, the leg rotation caused by the pelvis imbalance will increase the risk of piriformis syndrome- the commonest cause of sciatica, the postural difficulties associated with Western Seated Posture (Upper Crossed Syndrome and Lower Crossed Syndrome- as described by the Czech Physician and physiotherapist Vladimir Janda) will be much more likely to develop in KISS individuals than individuals with better posture,and better integration of their movements. These syndromes can contribute to cardiovasular disease, hiatus hernia and a wide range of other conditions.


In answer to Amtram's question -Heiner Biedermann MD (Orthopedic Surgeon) - backed by an extensive team of medical specialists, does not hesitate to say that the results of treatment are best in infants, better in school age children, and poorer in adults.

Please do a comprehensive review of the material presented in order to be able to qualify to comment sensibly.

Kunga Dorji
12-07-13, 10:11 AM
P { margin-bottom: 0.21cm; } Biedermann emphasises that early intervention in infants is a minimal intervention, and only has to be done once, while for school age children several interventions at the occipitocervical junction may be required, along with further interventions at other levels of the spine.


My personal experience is that management of the problem in adults only gets more complex as we age and acquire more wear and tear due to our years of abnormal posture.




This book presents clear evidence of an association between attentional problems and suboccipital strain, and also presents a cogent case as to why this initially minor problem should cause such profound difficulties in later life.

Kunga Dorji
12-07-13, 10:13 AM
P { margin-bottom: 0.21cm; } My personal experience is that management of the problem in adults only gets more complex as we age and acquire more wear and tear due to our years of abnormal posture.


This book presents clear evidence of an association between attentional problems and suboccipital strain, and also presents a cogent case as to why this initially minor problem should cause such profound difficulties in later life.


There is clear evidence now that demonstrates the progression of untreated attention problems in children to a range of highly unsatisfactory outcomes in adults: anxiety, depression, bipolar illness, addiction problems, difficulty managing work and holding jobs, poor financial outcomes, increased risk of criminal convictions.


Given this association, and the association with more general medical conditions in adults, my personal opinion is that suboccipital strain/ atlas misalignments/subluxations, are probably the commonest easily treatable cause of preventable illness in Western society.


As a Medical Practitioner I am gravely concerned that




the rigidity of our academic hierarchy
current obsessions with molecular-genetic medicine that ignore the biopsychosocial model of holistic medicine
interprofessional rivalries and power games,
and our inability to follow up on good quality medical information that is not originally published in English
has created a situation where we, as a profession are not keeping up with the whole evidence base that is available to us and cannot claim to be practicing evidence based medicine.

I am also confident that Dr Biedermann's research provides more than enough evidence to put this particular argument to rest once and for all, for anyone who cares to read it.

Kunga Dorji
12-07-13, 10:30 AM
Greater detail on the proposed link between ADD symptoms and Upper Cervical problems is provided in Chapter 12:


P { margin-bottom: 0.21cm; } Chapter 12 Attention Deficit Disorder and the Upper Cervical Spine
R. Thieler (Paediatrician& Member of the European Workgroup for Manual Medicine)


p133:
“Even when there is no obvious evidence of abnormality, careful examination of pre-school and school age children frequently reveals indications of movement deficits of the upper cervical spine consistent with kinematic imbalances due to suboccipital strain (KISS).


Such findings are also very frequent in children with suspected ADD or similar problems, primarily involving clumsiness of gross motor functions and, more especially fine motor function, and difficulty in concentrating, and functional and behavioural difficulties”. (NB- this may sound familiar to many ADDers Kunga)



“During the early stages of our observation of child cases involving KISS and ADD, manual medical treatment was given solely to correct postural asymmetry. Following successful treatment of KISS, we found that in many cases that improvement had occurred not only in those aspects relating directly to postural deficit, but also in concentration and cognitive abilities.”


Study 48 children all with ADD according to DSM IV criteria.
Discussion of Results 136-7
One of the main findings of the neurophysiological examination in ADD is the reduced capacity for processing information. Miller G 1956 The magical number seven, plus or minus two: some limits on our capacity for processing information. Psychological Review 63:81-97
“There is a reduced intake concentration span in two or more fields of perception. This is an expression of deficiencies in executive functions, which are carried out in the dopamine dependent structures of the frontal lobe and the corpus striatum, and its links to the limbic system. The reduced ability to perceive or take in information makes it impossible to achieve the periods of concentration and sustained attention appropriate to the age of the child”.



P { margin-bottom: 0.21cm; }
According to this study, the main result following successful manipulation therapy for KISS was an improvement in intake concentration span, especially in verbal and visual perception.


The deficit in terms of age usually diminished within a short period ( an improvement in performance equal to a gain of up to two or more years performance) in the measured interval prior to treatment and the first treatment.


This improvement in performance could not be accounted for by brain maturation.


Parents often commented that improvements were observable in everyday life on the day that manipulative therapy had taken place, or within a few days.
[quote]


The textbook illustrates a couple of examples of dramatic improvement in drawing ability within a couple of weeks of Manual Therapy to the upper neck. I have made pdfs of 2 of these, but am unsure as to how to post them. I will email the relevant pdfs to anyone who cares to PM me with an offsite email address.





“The model of the “capacity for processing information” offers an explanation for this improvement in cognitive function through orthopaedic treatment. This assumes that the brain has a set capacity to process information, and that the capacity must be available if it is to process the information received through the various means of perception.....”


“As with an overloaded computer, so in ADD with Kinematic Imbalance related Dysgnosia/Dyspraxia (KIDD) only part of the body of information is processed at the required time, leading eventually to a moment of total overload with decompensation due to excessive demand.



and here we fit right into the model of "insufficient working memory. The only issue is that the working memory is insufficient for an impossibly large task. Does anyone recall me suggesting that "attention deficit disorder" might be re-cast as "too much information disorder"?


[quote]

In the combination of KISS and ADD the child has an additional overload factor: in addition to having a processing memory that is too small for its age (ie a relatively less mature brain- noting that issues like rate of brain maturation will fall along a normal distribution curve, but school processes and requirements do not take account of this. AK), the child has to correct for the information distorted through the malpositioning of the head, and this corrective work probably plays a decisive role (in mental overload). The malpositioning means that the visual information is received crookedly, and either the information has to be straightened out in the system of visual perception, or the position of the head must be corrected by controlling the angle of the trunk, both solutions requiring additional information processing.



Too much information disorder again-- but this model does not even account for the severe stress reaction induced by the awful sense of imbalance that this problem occurs. If the problem is chronic- the imbalance is more subtle- it appears "normal".






Successful manipulation therapy brings head and trunk correction back within normal range, freeing up capacity to be used for cognitive processing and bringing about a quantitative improvement in the processing of information received.



P { margin-bottom: 0.21cm; }
In the present study the clearest differences in findings occurred in those items of the examination that required information to be processed using a variety of modalities. In these tests, sensory information had to be translated into the performance of a motor task: repeating sounds, drawing a series of dots, or tracing out with the finger a line traced on the back of the hand (graphasthesia imitation). An everyday example of such a difference was that the reading performance of children with difficulty in reading aloud became normal in what was for parents an astonishingly short time.


On the other hand, the developmental deficit before and after therapy was considerably less in procedures requiring choice (and sometimes not demonstrable at all). To perform these procedures correctly the children needed to show good perceptive ability, but the demands appeared to been less than if all the children had to do was identify differences between pieces of information they had heard or felt.



P { margin-bottom: 0.21cm; }
For the majority of children, (with KISS and ADD) KISS causes a considerable limitation of information processing capacity: more importantly this was an additional limitation of capacity.
Manipulation therapy helped these children to some degree, but did not fundamentally improve the underlying problem. These children, therefore needed further types of treatment, in most cases medical stimulant therapy together with supporting therapy for motor function or behaviour.”




KIDD
P137ff
If they remain untreated, infants with KISS, grow into children with KIDD, with more or less pronounced associated symptoms. They exhibit not only problems of posture with neck and/or back pain, but further difficulties that cannot clearly be traced to posture. These mainly involve motor clumsiness of varying severity, ranging all the way up to ataxic movement disorder. The main problem is motor co-ordination, in particular with fine motor function, with difficulties in graphic motor function. Other problems include variable concentration ability, which understandably results in variable performance at school and in everyday life. The form taken by the behavioural difficulty depends on the individual child, but seldom varies for any one individual. Observation shows that decompensation may be aggressive, destructive, or resigned.


If the difficulties in behaviour and perception are caused by poor positioning of the atlanto-occipital joint, we apply the description “Kinematic imbalance related dyspraxia/dysgnosia which is suboccipital in origin” (KIDD).


The possibility that children whose cognitive performance becomes normal after manipulation therapy might be suffering from an associated dopamine deficiency of the frontal lobe and frontal limbic structure is remote. Such therapy therefore provides a method of distinguishing “KIDD” from “KISS with ADD”. This in turn means that these children (the first subset of children presenting with ADD symptoms) can be helped without recourse to drug treatment, while the others can be helped by long term therapies.


The pattern of symptoms that appears with KIDD is difficult to differentiate from the problems of children with ADD.


Our protocol is as follows:
If ADD symptoms are accompanied by limited movement of the cervical spine attributable to KISS the manual therapy procedure is followed (radiological examination and manipulation therapy).


Follow up takes place at about 4 to 8 weeks after manipulation therapy.


P { margin-bottom: 0.21cm; } Follow up takes place at about 4 to 8 weeks after manipulation therapy.


If that examination reveals normal mobility of the cervical spine, we evaluate ADD symptoms and discuss the implications for subsequent therapy.


If it reveals further abnormality we recommend manipulation be performed a second time.


If the suboccipital region is normal and the symptoms have either disappeared or been reduced to a minimum, this is interpreted as KIDD. If ADD persists when the suboccipital region is normal we describe this as ADD with KISS.




So- in short- this is an extraordinarily balanced approach, that recognises both acquired birth injury AND possible genetic or other prenatal alterations to dopaminergic transmission.

Abi
12-07-13, 10:30 AM
First school years
Difficulty at drawing and writing, and these are often refused - Yes, documented in my elementary school reports. Received a year of Occ Ther which succeeded wrt to my handwriting. Still can't draw beyond stick figures.
Global motor skills poor – often bad at sport- so socially unpopularYes to poor motor skills. Documented mild gross and fine motor inadequacies in elementary school. (I seem to have grown out of them as a young adult) Bad at sport but no social unpopularity as sport is not a big deal in my culture.
Often cover by playing the “clown”Yes. Always have, still do :)
Headaches mentioned more frequentlySevere migraines 3 - 4 days a week from Grades 5 to 8. They magically disappeared after and never came back.


Preadolescence
Difficulty with social interaction in the foregroundYes
Often described as being unable/unwilling to fulfil the requirements of schoolNo
Headache almost always mentioned: and is often a lead symptom See above


Broad symptoms:
-poor impression of themselvesYes, but NB I had undiagnosed severe generalised anxiety disorder
-quickly frustrated and attempt to avoid new symptomsYes
-frequently late, and forget easilyYes
-easily distracted, unable to concentrate on one topic.Yes
-fear of heightsNo


Physical Examination:No Idea, have not had one or if I have I have no documentation available.
-Imbalanced muscular coordination- asymmetrical tonus of postural muscles
-shortened hamstrings
-kyphotic posture, hyperextension of the neck, hypotonus of the dorsal muscles of the thoracic area, often accompanied by orofacial hypotonia (blank- non reactive facial expression)
-Scoliotic posture on sitting and/or standing
-shoulders at different height
-sacroiliac joint mobility asymmetrical often with asymmetry of leg rotation
-balance tests insufficient and mostly asymmetrical
-insufficient co-ordination of vestibular input (eg standing with raised arms and closed eyes difficult)
-acoustic orientation difficult
-combination of arm and leg movements difficult
-fidgeting and restlessness, sometimes tics
-using eye control to compensate for lack of proprioception, refusing to lie down supine, clinging with one hand to the examination table
-decompensation when personal space is invaded by the examiner, wild resistance against palpation

Kunga Dorji
12-07-13, 10:39 AM
So, having got the core material covered, it is time to go back to the issues related to "attachment". From my summary


P { margin-bottom: 0.21cm; } In infants, Biedermann describes KISS syndrome- Kinematic Instability due to Suboccipital Strain -a simple problem of obstructed movement in the upper neck causing blockage of head movements, then abnormal persistence of primitive reflexes (especially the asymmetrical atonic neck reflexes) leading to a baby either with a crooked neck progressing to a scoliosis along the whole spine or a baby whose neck is often stuck in hyperextension.
These infants are irritable, often colicky, physically sensitive and often dislike touch, they sleep poorly and are very difficult to settle. (They are also prone to issues like projectile vomiting due to pylorospasm).

They generally attach poorly to one breast, and their stereotyped sleeping positions often result in a flattened head. This issue, and the biomechanics of abnormal loading then often play out as orthodontic, and temporomandibular joint problems in adolescence and adulthood.


So- what is being described here is an infant who is colicky, will not settle to sleep and is often inconsolable.

Even the best parent in the world is going to struggle with an infant like this-- trust me-- I had two, and my mother tells me I was just as bad.

If a parent is confronted with an inconsolable infant, and the parent becomes distressed, the distress of the parent will transmit back to the child, and there will be attachment issues- most likely either avoidant or anxious attachment.

This is no easy, one way, model. What we are confronted with is a highly complex model in which the infant's body issues impact severely on every other aspect of life for all members of the family.

Kunga Dorji
12-07-13, 10:52 AM
First school years
Difficulty at drawing and writing, and these are often refused - Yes, documented in my elementary school reports. Received a year of Occ Ther which succeeded wrt to my handwriting. Still can't draw beyond stick figures.
Global motor skills poor – often bad at sport- so socially unpopularYes to poor motor skills. Documented mild gross and fine motor inadequacies in elementary school. (I seem to have grown out of them as a young adult) Bad at sport but no social unpopularity as sport is not a big deal in my culture.
Often cover by playing the “clown”Yes. Always have, still do :)
Headaches mentioned more frequentlySevere migraines 3 - 4 days a week from Grades 5 to 8. They magically disappeared after and never came back.


Preadolescence
Difficulty with social interaction in the foregroundYes
Often described as being unable/unwilling to fulfil the requirements of schoolNo
Headache almost always mentioned: and is often a lead symptom See above


Broad symptoms:
-poor impression of themselvesYes, but NB I had undiagnosed severe generalised anxiety disorder
-quickly frustrated and attempt to avoid new symptomsYes
-frequently late, and forget easilyYes
-easily distracted, unable to concentrate on one topic.Yes
-fear of heightsNo


Physical Examination:No Idea, have not had one or if I have I have no documentation available.
-Imbalanced muscular coordination- asymmetrical tonus of postural muscles
-shortened hamstrings
-kyphotic posture, hyperextension of the neck, hypotonus of the dorsal muscles of the thoracic area, often accompanied by orofacial hypotonia (blank- non reactive facial expression)
-Scoliotic posture on sitting and/or standing
-shoulders at different height
-sacroiliac joint mobility asymmetrical often with asymmetry of leg rotation
-balance tests insufficient and mostly asymmetrical
-insufficient co-ordination of vestibular input (eg standing with raised arms and closed eyes difficult)
-acoustic orientation difficult
-combination of arm and leg movements difficult
-fidgeting and restlessness, sometimes tics
-using eye control to compensate for lack of proprioception, refusing to lie down supine, clinging with one hand to the examination table
-decompensation when personal space is invaded by the examiner, wild resistance against palpation

It is just a little disturbing is it not?
The postural features should still be there- if you look closely.

Take a look at this woman's blog:
http://www.fixtheneck.com/shoulder_blades.html
The two pictures of her back and shoulder blades show the crookedness of her cervical spine perfectly- and she has done a lot of work to correct her posture. However those spinous processes of C,7,8 and T1,2 still drift way off vertical alignment.

Now the big thing that Biedermann misses in his analysis is the issue that this mismatch of body awareness sensation from left to right actually causes a sense of chronic imbalance. That sense causes the sense of chronic anxiety and tension that plagues so many of us so badly.

If you care to pay $20 odd for 1 month subscription you can see this illlustrated in this video:

http://psychevisual.com/Video_by_Ian_Niven_on_Light_induced_suppression_of _the_vestibular_system.html

Ian is a chiropractor who specialises in "functional neurology".

He is a colleague of mine and has also helped me to make enormous strides with resolving the underlying causes of my ADHD.
His demonstration that a sense of imbalance causes a stress response in this video really is masterful.

He was surprised when i showed him this video- as he had not given his permission for it to be posted and is not getting paid for it.

I hope if this link is "too commercial" you can tidy it up for me!

Note though that I am suggesting that the cause of your generalised anxiety COULD be (not Is- just could be) a chronic subtle sense of imbalance- one so chronic and subtle that you don't even think of it.
In my case it only ever showed itself up when I missed a small step and smacked my foot down hard on the ground.

Amtram
12-07-13, 11:37 AM
I would rather see evidence from randomized, controlled studies, than reports from the clinical anecdotes of a biased source. No matter how many chiropractors you gather together who insist that chiropractic does something, it's still not evidence.

Edzard Ernst collected a number of well-designed studies on the effect of chiropractic and colic in infants, and the full text is available here (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1742-1241.2009.02133.x/full). He also compiled a comprehensive critical evaluation of chiropractic, full text here (http://www.jpsmjournal.com/article/S0885-3924%2807%2900783-X/fulltext). Both have a list of references that show that he looked at information from sources friendly to chiropractic in addition to reputable scientific publications. Over 200 references in the second piece.

And, to be honest, when the only researchers who attest that chiropractic helps with ADHD are chiropractors, and several medical organizations advise against chiropractic for the conditions that fall under their specialties, and several Pediatric medical associations specifically warn against chiropractic for patients under the age of 16-18, I'd say that's rather telling when it comes to these claims.

ginniebean
12-07-13, 11:54 AM
This is a lot to take in, but it is well supported by published research (much of which is in German or French) and those who care to acquire the textbook will be able to verify this for themselves. Typing up all the references with all the strange European accents etc, was too great a task for me.



How can there not be a problem with this?


Well you can read the text book, but you can't reasonably be expected to be able to assess the actual contents because supporting documentation are in languages you can't speak or read.


Given that the promoted treatment is unknown by the medical profession in the west (woo sellers wet dream), yet you can be sure every spinning woo meister will be recommending these treatments to people who WANT to believe and for whom supporting evidence is not needed

What it sounds like is documentation and critical analysis are not necessary and this treatment go forth and take the babies in to the chiro's we'll sort out the facts later.

Is this really helpful? Because you are in fact advocating this as a treatment correct? That's why the helpful yet impossible to analyse book ... review?

As a mom, I think it's VERY necessary to have comprehensive information about treatment when it comes to an infant and I'd want it BEFORE that treatment took place. Now, given, I'm not particularly swayed by the narratives of woo practitioners who most certainly will have this up on their websites tickety boo! (without the indecipherable supportive evidence) Other mom's may not be aware and we have no idea what any resultant harm might be.

Kunga Dorji
12-07-13, 07:30 PM
I would rather see evidence from randomized, controlled studies, than reports from the clinical anecdotes of a biased source. No matter how many chiropractors you gather together who insist that chiropractic does something, it's still not evidence.

Edzard Ernst collected a number of well-designed studies on the effect of chiropractic and colic in infants, and the full text is available here (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1742-1241.2009.02133.x/full). He also compiled a comprehensive critical evaluation of chiropractic, full text here (http://www.jpsmjournal.com/article/S0885-3924%2807%2900783-X/fulltext). Both have a list of references that show that he looked at information from sources friendly to chiropractic in addition to reputable scientific publications. Over 200 references in the second piece.

And, to be honest, when the only researchers who attest that chiropractic helps with ADHD are chiropractors, and several medical organizations advise against chiropractic for the conditions that fall under their specialties, and several Pediatric medical associations specifically warn against chiropractic for patients under the age of 16-18, I'd say that's rather telling when it comes to these claims.

Amtram- look at the list of contributors to the book.
There is NOT ONE chiropractor, and almost all are MDs.

As I said the book itself contains links to published research by all the authors and by others-- however the published research does not, by and large, appear in the English speaking press. Every chapter reference some 30-40 journals supporting individual claims.

There is a big problem here in that there is insufficient input of Central and Eastern European Scientific studies into the Anglophone Scientific community.

dvdnvwls
12-07-13, 07:37 PM
Kunga Dorji - Just how big is this reference list? People deserve to see it, and I'm tentatively volunteering to transcribe, accents and all, if it's not entirely too big a job for me.

Lunacie
12-07-13, 07:53 PM
Kunga (getting used to the name change), many of the doctors you list are
from Germany, and I believe ADHD is not as well accepted as a mental health
disorder there, especially for adults.

Isn't "manual therapy" what chiropractors do?

Kunga Dorji
12-07-13, 07:54 PM
How can there not be a problem with this?


Well you can read the text book, but you can't reasonably be expected to be able to assess the actual contents because supporting documentation are in languages you can't speak or read.


Given that the promoted treatment is unknown by the medical profession in the west (woo sellers wet dream), yet you can be sure every spinning woo meister will be recommending these treatments to people who WANT to believe and for whom supporting evidence is not needed

What it sounds like is documentation and critical analysis are not necessary and this treatment go forth and take the babies in to the chiro's we'll sort out the facts later.

Is this really helpful? Because you are in fact advocating this as a treatment correct? That's why the helpful yet impossible to analyse book ... review?

As a mom, I think it's VERY necessary to have comprehensive information about treatment when it comes to an infant and I'd want it BEFORE that treatment took place. Now, given, I'm not particularly swayed by the narratives of woo practitioners who most certainly will have this up on their websites tickety boo! (without the indecipherable supportive evidence) Other mom's may not be aware and we have no idea what any resultant harm might be.

What the book does have is sufficient evidence of a well defined syndrome- which they described as "KIDD syndrome" in which one of the major symptoms is poor concentration.

Not all of the original papers are in languages other than English.

Now as a clinician, I can tell you that the clinical syndromes KISS and KIDD that are described are clear cut and are observable.

I have had treatment for this problem myself, but in my case it was severe and left quite a scoliosis, and correcting that scoliosis has been a slow business due to secondary osteoarthritis. That has left me in the situation of having recurrent minor displacements of my atlas--- each one of which now makes me feel quite unbalanced and unstable and causes a sudden remission of all my ADHD symptoms, with palpable local tenderness of the muscles supporting the affected joint. The worst symptom by far is the acoustic disorientation- especially in shopping centres.

From a clinician's point of view it is the observability of these syndromes that is the exciting part. I know of over 200 people who have had treatment for this problem, and I know what the results have been. My own psychiatrist has started referring some ADHD patients for treatment of upper neck problem- with dramatic results.

From the point of view of mindfulness practice, a fully upright spine makes an enormous difference to achieving stable, focussed attention, and it becomes very difficult to achieve that posture without correction of localised joint problems.

Now the issue with the recommendations of Medical Groups is that they go against the findings of court cases that Chiropractors have already won against the American AMA.

Certainly, from my point of view, there is enough evidence and solid theory to put up here for people to inspect and consider. In fact there is so much that it would be irresponsible of me not to do that.

Abi
12-07-13, 07:55 PM
Bun venit la Ghidul de iniţiere Google privind optimizarea pentru motoarele de căutare. Acest document a fost lansat iniţial ca un efort pentru a ajuta echipele Google, însă ne-am gândit că ar fi la fel de util şi pentru webmasterii începători în domeniul optimizării pentru motoarele de căutare, şi care doresc să îmbunătăţească interacţiunea site-ului atât cu utilizatorii, cât şi cu motoarele de căutare. Deşi acest ghid nu vă va dezvălui niciun secret prin care site-ul dvs. să se claseze în mod automat primul pentru interogările de pe Google (ne pare rău!), respectarea celor mai bune practici prezentate mai jos va simplifica atât accesarea cu crawlere, cât şi indexarea conţinutului dvs. de motoarele de căutare.

^^^ Downloaded random PDF file, used Software to convert to MS Word, copy-pasted.

DVD - I'll help.

Kunga Dorji
12-07-13, 08:01 PM
Kunga Dorji - Just how big is this reference list? People deserve to see it, and I'm tentatively volunteering to transcribe, accents and all, if it's not entirely too big a job for me.

I have loaned the book out to another practitioner and do not expect to have it back until later this week. However there are 26 chapters, some of which have up to 4 pages of references. I think the largest number of references for one chapter is in the 40-60 range.
I would be able to photocopy or scan the reference pages and forward them to your private email address-- but it would be a big job.

Abi
12-07-13, 08:03 PM
Ugh. Meatspace book.

I don't suppose it comes in e-book version?

Kunga Dorji
12-07-13, 08:04 PM
Bun venit la Ghidul de iniţiere Google privind optimizarea pentru motoarele de căutare. Acest document a fost lansat iniţial ca un efort pentru a ajuta echipele Google, însă ne-am gândit că ar fi la fel de util şi pentru webmasterii începători în domeniul optimizării pentru motoarele de căutare, şi care doresc să îmbunătăţească interacţiunea site-ului atât cu utilizatorii, cât şi cu motoarele de căutare. Deşi acest ghid nu vă va dezvălui niciun secret prin care site-ul dvs. să se claseze în mod automat primul pentru interogările de pe Google (ne pare rău!), respectarea celor mai bune practici prezentate mai jos va simplifica atât accesarea cu crawlere, cât şi indexarea conţinutului dvs. de motoarele de căutare.

Google translate I take it? (Romanian)

Ugh. Meatspace book.

I don't suppose it comes in e-book version?

I wish!
Doing the transcription that I did do (25 pages of A4) was a backbreaking job.

Kunga Dorji
12-07-13, 08:26 PM
More from the book:



Chapter 26 The Family Dimension,
How birth trauma and family History complement each other in facilitating functional vertebroenic disorders in children.
H. Biedermann


Strong same sex tendencies in the gene pool
KISS in the Gene Pool
discusses possible ADHD /KISS link torticollis in other cultures (ref Polynesian Tikis and baby massage in India)

P316
Biedermann's data indicates about 1/3 of all babies have reduced mobility of the head and spine at birth.
Note distinction b/w a postural preference and a fixed position


L handedness and increased incidence of mental illness & all accidents (Goldberg 2001)

Mild end KISS outcomes:
clumsiness
fear of heights
problems with sport
difficulties fitting in at school because of this- social embarrassment at gym and on the dance floor

but
Many can and do still have successful life outcomes (ie the author, Biedermann himself)


My comment- this analysis does not discuss the long term problems associated with asymmetry: one sided hip and knee problems, the problems associated with upper crossed posture (which may well drive metabolic syndrome), the issues associated with chronic occipitocervical hyperextension (which may contribute towards impaired CSF, arterial and venous exchange b/w heart and brain).


Biedermann speculates:


Genetic makeup for KISS seems to include a difficulty controlling automatisms and difficulty in relegating acquired micropatterns to the subconscious level.
Negative: These need conscious control- overload of working memory
Positive- This need for conscious control enables them to come to consciousness and be re-examined relatively easily
My comment- that difficulty in controlling automatisms and in regulating acquired movement micropatterns to the subconscious level must put an extra demand on working memory. I also query- how do Tics/Tourette's/myoclonic jerks and even a contribution to epilepsy fit in here?


The William Randolph effect-
a famous sprinter who overcame crippling polio to become a famous athlete:
Some KISS kids push through their obstacles and gain greater mastery


AK- Issues here are


those kids are probably better attached, to less badly affected parents and thier supportive parents (or other significant attachment figures) help them overcome their difficulties.

some of these individuals master emotional self regulation, but others, like some footballers with ADHD do not.


Biedermann P 317: Families and school environment have to be supportive for this to happen
My comment - the families and schools need to be in fit state to be supportive, and be aware of what support is needed


“As with dyslexic children it would help a lot if we were able to use the label “attention deficit disorder” (ADD)
in a non negative way. It is true that these children are often very difficult to handle, but it is also true that they often display talents that we should not overlook. If we take into account how different the percentage of children diagnosed with ADD in populations with very similar genetic make up it seems at least far fetched to attribute ADD solely to a genetic factor. This one dimensional explanation also runs counter to the fact that ADD is diagnosed with a steeply increasing frequency without any change to the underlying gene pool. Even gross under diagnosing would hardly suffice to explain the 100 fold increase in Ritalin prescribing in the last decade in the USA alone.


If the proponents of a genetic factor in ADHD were correct, the question immediately arises why this allegedly very negative item in our evolution was not weeded out a long while ago.
Careful genetic studies showed long ago that even lethal genes bestow competitive advantages on their bearers.; the gene for sickle cell anaemia protects a heterozygous carrier from malaria, and the gene for cystic fibrosis protects the heterozygous carrier against typhoid fever. If we were to accept that there is “genetic programming” for ADD, we would have to do our best to understand the eventual advantages such a gene may carry as “collateral advantage” lest we prevent the adaptation of children treated with psychopharmaceuticals to their inherited genetic makeup.


I include this part here as an interesting aside that Biedermann has independently arrived at most of the flaws in the genetic causation model of ADHD highlighted by myself and by Mate.



Schoolchildren with an initial diagnosis of ADD represent the bulk of our patients of that age group.
In a sizable proportion, the disappearance (correction) of the functional vertebrogenic problem helps sufficiently for them to reach a higher level of self organization.

It seems fruitless to discuss whether the initial diagnosis was wrong, or if manual therapy can indeed help to alleviate the symptoms of ADD in general.

As far as our patients are concerned, the most precise indicator that an attempt with manual therapy should be made is the early history. If signs of functional disorders are to be found, a closer examination should follow and- even if the other indications are quite inconclusive- a test manipulation should be tried.

Precise prediction of the best responders is difficult.

Contrary to pharmacotherapy in ADD, which normally does not influence long term performance, schoolchildren who react positively to manual therapy show improvement in their reports and more often than not, these improvements last.
So, although we cannot offer a wonder cure for ADD, we do have a sizable group of children usually labelled as ADD whose response to manual therapy gives them the chance to get onto a new track in their development. The chance is even greater if the child in question showed symptoms of KISS or has a sibling who was treated for it.


So Biedermann actually draws a very balanced conclusion here- simply saying that if a child with an ADHD presentation has a history or physical signs of of an upper cervical problem then there is a 66% chance of substantial improvement in symptoms with one or two treatments.

Kunga Dorji
12-07-13, 08:47 PM
Kunga (getting used to the name change), many of the doctors you list are
from Germany, and I believe ADHD is not as well accepted as a mental health
disorder there, especially for adults.

Isn't "manual therapy" what chiropractors do?

It used to be a part of allopathic medicine-- and in Europe medical practitioners never stopped doing it. Equally, in Europe, physiotherapists are far broader in their approach, and use many techniques that chiropractors would.

I understand that there are far fewer chiropractors in Europe because their niche is already occupied by doctors doing the same work.

There really is a problem though with the way the image of chiropractic was blackened by the American AMA (especially by the editor of the J.A.M.A. Morris Fischbein) in what was a very clear cut attempt to gain monopoly control over the health sciences. The AMA lost out very badly on that one- in an antitrust case in the US supreme court, but the calumny that chiropractic is quackery still persists.

I was discussing this from the other direction with my chiropractor (I put my lower back out moving house) and mentioned to her that allopathic medicine in Australia and the US has degenerated to the point where few of us know the complexity of the mechanisms by which human movement is regulated and coordinated, and that few of my colleagues have a detailed knowledge of trigger points. She was stunned at our ignorance, and could not conceive how we can practice medicine safely without knowing that.

(The reason being that trigger points in some muscles cause odd referred pains that can look like neurological involvement or even like a heart attack).

My feeling is that I would rather have any manual therapy done by a full time manual therapy specialist, than by a doctor who does a bit of this and a bit of that, and is a jack of all trades, but a master of none.

Abi
12-07-13, 09:50 PM
Okay, Im opening my mind, possibly to the extent that my brain will fall out, and exploring this.

Possible causes of KISS
long and difficult births, needing forceps or a Ventouse suction cup
emergency Caesarean section
constrained intrauterine position
breech presentation
twin birth
little intrauterine space
infections
planned Caesarian sections
Kristeller's procedure during the birth
very fast birth
birthweight over 4000g (8lb 13oz)
there also seems to be an element of familial tendency toward KISS syndrome

Abi
12-07-13, 09:57 PM
KIDD syndrome can result in:

headaches/migraines
weak or altered postural control
unusual gait
poor posture
frequent stumbles/falls
poor performance in sports
coordination problems and poor motor skills
gross motor skills --> riding a bike, balancing
ine motor skills --> handwriting, drawing and crafts, doing up buttons
learning difficulties and concentration problems in school
restlessness, fidgeting
hyperactivity/daydreaming
--> symptoms similar to ADS/ADHS
poor social integration
delayed speech development
emotional problems
frustration--> irritability--> impatience--> aggression
problems with reading and writing
difficulties falling asleep and/or sleeping through the night
A child, teenager or adult often develops avoidance strategies to conceal these deficits:

refusal to take part in activities
unusual behaviour patterns

Kunga Dorji
12-07-13, 10:47 PM
KIDD syndrome can result in:

headaches/migraines
weak or altered postural control
unusual gait
poor posture
frequent stumbles/falls
poor performance in sports
coordination problems and poor motor skills
gross motor skills --> riding a bike, balancing
ine motor skills --> handwriting, drawing and crafts, doing up buttons
learning difficulties and concentration problems in school
restlessness, fidgeting
hyperactivity/daydreaming
--> symptoms similar to ADS/ADHS
poor social integration
delayed speech development
emotional problems
frustration--> irritability--> impatience--> aggression
problems with reading and writing
difficulties falling asleep and/or sleeping through the night
A child, teenager or adult often develops avoidance strategies to conceal these deficits:

refusal to take part in activities
unusual behaviour patterns

All of these symptoms will be lesser when more fit and upright, and all of them will be worse when we slouch more.

The clincher for the diagnosis really lies in identifying the transverse processes of the atlas and seeing if they are in an asymmetrical position, and if they are tender.
I vividly remember the day I identified this problem in myself and the horrible deep ache when I pressed on the spot.

Now I hesitate to link to this site, as I know nothing about the efficacy of this technique proposed (and the technique sounds rather improbable to me)- however the practitioner has got some very good short videos on identifying unbalanced atlas bones:

It is commercial so I cannot link to it.
so you need to google atlasbalancingnow
Go to the "Practitioner's Tab" and look at videos 1,2 and 3.

The videos do give accurate information on how to identify this abnormality when it is present. However I would stress that the presence of tenderness is of great importance in making the diagnosis.
The pressure to elicit tenderness should be firm but not so firm that it would cause pain wherever you pressed. IE try pressing as firmly as you can on your skull- and then compare that pressure at the neck.

Abi
12-07-13, 11:39 PM
I'm rather sleepy to research, so would you mind answering the following:

1. Are KISS and KIDD recognised medical diagnoses (mainstream medicine)? and
2. Are there mainstream treatments available? (ie. non-chiropractors)

ginniebean
12-08-13, 12:41 AM
My question about critical analysis had to do with the safety of the treatment on infants and children. If we can't read the research how can parents know how or if this treatment is safe. You're an adult, you make your choices, infants and little kids don't so I think it's reasonable to ask for documented evidence that this practice is safe for children.


I'm confused as well, is kiss or Kidd (2 different disorders?) adhd? There sure does seem to be a lot of overlap.

Kunga Dorji
12-08-13, 02:19 AM
My question about critical analysis had to do with the safety of the treatment on infants and children. If we can't read the research how can parents know how or if this treatment is safe. You're an adult, you make your choices, infants and little kids don't so I think it's reasonable to ask for documented evidence that this practice is safe for children.


I'm confused as well, is kiss or Kidd (2 different disorders?) adhd? There sure does seem to be a lot of overlap.

You need to look up a few posts.

KISS syndrome and KIDD syndrome are working models that Biedermann and his colleagues have developed to define the cluster of symptoms they see with upper cervical birth trauma.

KISS= Kinematic Instability due to Suboccipital Strain.
KIDD= KISS Induced Dyspraxia and Dysgnosia

KISS syndrome is what is seen in infants before they get upright.
Then symptoms usually drop below the radar until about the start of school.
The symptom cluster in schoolage children is somewhat different.

Basic KISS Symptoms are
colicky irritable babies, maybe with reflux or projectile vomiting
they are poor sleepers
they have a crooked neck and may sleep in a hyperextended position
their neck crookedness makes them favour one breast over the other- as they just can't get comfortable on the other.
they favour one sleeping position so much that they often get misshapen heads.


Basic KIDD symptoms

Restless, can't sit still, cant sit up straight unless they continually focus all their attention on doing so.
Often have a scoliosis or a kyphosis or both.
Issues with co-ordination (gross and fine motor) and balance- so often afraid of heights.
Have difficulty concentrating.
Easily frustrated, give up easily, difficulties socialising.
Headaches may be an issue.
The children rarely mention backache, or neck problems but fiercely resist examination of the upper neck
(This latter one has me interested- the relevant area is near the jaw, so this may explain some kids who don't like the dentist at all.- just a passing thought).


Effectively KISS and KIDD are "working hypotheses"- just as every DSM diagnosis is- if you accept the rules for DSM set out at the front of the book.

Biedermann himself notes the considerable overlap between KIDD and ADHD symptoms.

He notes that the presence of KIDD will certainly place an extra demand on anybody's working memory, and as their interventions in childhood are so effective (rarely more than 2 treatments in school age children or one in infants) that not treating the problem when it is there is missing an opportunity for an easy and powerful result.

The paediatrician who wrote the chapter on ADHD (R.Thieler) actually uses the Connor rating scale as a measure of improvement in his patients.


P { margin-bottom: 0.21cm; }Even when there is no obvious evidence of abnormality, careful examination of pre-school and school age children frequently reveals indications of movement deficits of the upper cervical spine consistent with kinematic imbalances due to suboccipital strain (KISS).


Such findings are also very frequent in children with suspected ADD or similar problems, primarily involving clumsiness of gross motor functions and, more especially fine motor function, and difficulty in concentrating, and functional and behavioural difficulties”.


“During the early stages of our observation of child cases involving KISS and ADD, manual medical treatment was given solely to correct postural asymmetry. Following successful treatment of KISS, we found that in many cases that improvement had occurred not only in those aspects relating directly to postural deficit, but also in concentration and cognitive abilities.”


So, when this group of clinicians was starting to investigate this problem they were not even looking for an association with ADHD.
He discusses a study done by himself and his colleagues of 48 children who met the diagnostic criteria for ADD.
His commentary on the findings of his studies follow:

P { margin-bottom: 0.21cm; }One of the main findings of the neurophysiological examination in ADD is the reduced capacity for processing information. Miller G 1956 The magical number seven, plus or minus two: some limits on our capacity for processing information. Psychological Review 63:81-97
“There is a reduced intake concentration span in two or more fields of perception. This is an expression of deficiencies in executive functions, which are carried out in the dopamine dependent structures of the frontal lobe and the corpus striatum, and its links to the limbic system. The reduced ability to perceive or take in information makes it impossible to achieve the periods of concentration and sustained attention appropriate to the age of the child”.


According to this study, the main result following successful manipulation therapy for KISS was an improvement in intake concentration span, especially in verbal and visual perception.


The deficit in terms of age usually diminished within a short period ( an improvement in performance equal to a gain of up to two or more years performance) in the measured interval prior to treatment and the first treatment.


This improvement in performance could not be accounted for by brain maturation


Parents often commented that improvements were observable in everyday life on the day that manipulative therapy had taken place, or within a few days.


“The model of the “capacity for processing information” offers an explanation for this improvement in cognitive function through orthopaedic treatment. This assumes that the brain has a set capacity to process information, and that the capacity must be available if it is to process the information received through the various means of perception.....”


“As with an overloaded computer, so in ADD with Kinematic Imbalance related Dysgnosia/Dyspraxia (KIDD) only part of the body of information is processed at the required time, leading eventually to a moment of total overload with decompensation due to excessive demand.
In the combination of KISS and ADD the child has an additional overload factor: in addition to having a processing memory that is too small for its age (ie a relatively less mature brain- noting that issues like rate of brain maturation will fall along a normal distribution curve, but school processes and requirements do not take account of this. AK), the child has to correct for the information distorted through the malpositioning of the head, and this corrective work probably plays a decisive role (in mental overload). The malpositioning means that the visual information is received crookedly, and either the information has to be straightened out in the system of visual perception, or the position of the head must be corrected by controlling the angle of the trunk, both solutions requiring additional information processing.


Successful manipulation therapy brings head and trunk correction back within normal range, freeing up capacity to be used for cognitive processing and bringing about a quantitative improvement in the processing of information received.


In the present study the clearest differences in findings occurred in those items of the examination that required information to be processed using a variety of modalities. In these tests, sensory information had to be translated into the performance of a motor task: repeating sounds, drawing a series of dots, or tracing out with the finger a line traced on the back of the hand (graphasthesia imitation). An everyday example of such a difference was that the reading performance of children with difficulty in reading aloud became normal in what was for parents an astonishingly short time.


On the other hand, the developmental deficit before and after therapy was considerably less in procedures requiring choice (and sometimes not demonstrable at all). To perform these procedures correctly the children needed to show good perceptive ability, but the demands appeared to been less than if all the children had to do was identify differences between pieces of information they had heard or felt.



So from my point of view these are careful observations taken by a paeditrician who is well aware of the key issues in ADHD.

Kunga Dorji
12-08-13, 02:31 AM
My question about critical analysis had to do with the safety of the treatment on infants and children. If we can't read the research how can parents know how or if this treatment is safe. You're an adult, you make your choices, infants and little kids don't so I think it's reasonable to ask for documented evidence that this practice is safe for children.


I'm confused as well, is kiss or Kidd (2 different disorders?) adhd? There sure does seem to be a lot of overlap.


Re safety of treatment -- that is covered in Chapter 11:

Chapter 11 The influence of the high cervical region on the autonomic regulatory system in infants. (L.E. Koch: General Practitioner & Member of the European Workgroup for Manual Medicine)


The main side effects noted were brief episodes of bradycardia and apnoea, and sometimes flushing.


This is highly significant- as the transverse process of the atlas lies in close proximity to the vagus nerve, and stimulation of the vagus nerve (such as could occur from a misplaced atlas if the child lay with his neck in the wrong position) could cause symptoms of colic or even bradycardia/ apnnoea.


The author of this chapter proposed that there should be more study of SIDS cases to see if atlas subluxation may be a causative factor there too.


This has been a suspicion of mine for a long while. If this is the case then the risks of NOT having the procedure done would be very high indeed.


Now I can't comment on any case series of safety of the procedure, but I have seen it done. In infants the muscular tension holding the atlas out of place are much less than in adults and the actual treatment done is only a very gentle nudge with the thumb.


When I get the book back I will check to see if that is specifically commented on by the authors. (If you do not hear back from me within a week please give me a nudge).

Kunga Dorji
12-08-13, 02:50 AM
I'm rather sleepy to research, so would you mind answering the following:

1. Are KISS and KIDD recognised medical diagnoses (mainstream medicine)? and
2. Are there mainstream treatments available? (ie. non-chiropractors)

1) See the comments I made to GinnieBean. Please recall that in Australia there is still a vigorous lobby group arguing that ADHD is not a legitimate diagnosis.
Again I would emphasise previous comments I have made about us needing to learn to use our own judgement and not just rely on some official lobby group to tell us that "their" solution is the right one. There is too much self interest to ever make that a safe option.

2) I do know that these sorts of treatments are available from MDs in Europe who have this training.
In Australia- I have only seen this sort of treatment from Chiropractors and Atlas Profilax practitioners.
I do not know what the situation is in the US or Canada though.

That is an interesting thought- as one of the authors of the book is from the US- I might follow him up and see if he will reply.

In Australia, by the way, the creation of the Australian Health Practitioner's Regulation Authority has now put doctors, physiotherapists, psychologists, nurses, osteopaths, chiropractors and Traditional Chinese Medicine Practitiooners on an equal footing as peers.

This has taken time to sink in to the old guard in Medicine- but their howls of indignation at the loss of pre-eminent status of allopathic medical practitioners have been an entertaining part of public life in Australia in the last few years.

meadd823
12-08-13, 05:39 AM
I would rather see evidence from randomized, controlled studies, than reports from the clinical anecdotes of a biased source. No matter how many chiropractors you gather together who insist that chiropractic does something, it's still not evidence.

Edzard Ernst collected a number of well-designed studies on the effect of chiropractic and colic in infants, and the full text is available here (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1742-1241.2009.02133.x/full). He also compiled a comprehensive critical evaluation of chiropractic, full text here (http://www.jpsmjournal.com/article/S0885-3924%2807%2900783-X/fulltext). Both have a list of references that show that he looked at information from sources friendly to chiropractic in addition to reputable scientific publications. Over 200 references in the second piece.

And, to be honest, when the only researchers who attest that chiropractic helps with ADHD are chiropractors, and several medical organizations advise against chiropractic for the conditions that fall under their specialties, and several Pediatric medical associations specifically warn against chiropractic for patients under the age of 16-18, I'd say that's rather telling when it comes to these claims.


Please excuse my meds are gone but based upon my review I am unsure of where you get that these are chiropractor friendly especially the second link which actually speaks of chiropractors practice in religious and metaphysical context is toned in a noticeable hostile manner.

from source one

Chiropractic spinal manipulation for infant colic: a systematic review of randomised clinical trials (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1742-1241.2009.02133.x/full#b9)

The aim of this systematic review was to critically evaluate the data from randomized clinical trials of chiropractic spinal manipulation as a treatment of infant colic.

Click on the table one reveals the following 556 research articles located, 52 articles reviewed, 48 excluded due to criteria failure , 4 research articles - so what they determined was based upon 4 clinical trails included

continued from source 1

Numerous weaknesses of the primary data would prevent firm conclusions, even if the results of all RCTs had been unanimously positive.

Okay now for the ADHD dyslexic review = wtf

Why did they bother if they started out knowing that the conclusion were not going to be conclusive - "I will not talk in class" x 5 pages if I write big it takes up space.

Next

Chiropractic: A Critical Evaluation (http://www.jpsmjournal.com/article/S0885-3924%2807%2900783-X/fulltext)

The history of chiropractic is “rooted in quasi-mystical concepts. Bonesetters of various types are part of the folk medicine of most cultures and bonesetting also formed the basis on which chiropractic developed.

There is evidence to suggest that D.D. Palmer had learned manipulative techniques from Andrew Taylor Still (1828–1917), the founder of osteopathy. He combined the skills of a bonesetter with the background of a magnetic healer and claimed that “chiropractic was not evolved from medicine or any other method, except that of magnetic.” He coined the term “innate intelligence” (or “innate”) for the assumed “energy” or “vital force,” which, according to the magnetic healers of that time, enables the body to heal itself. The “innate” defies quantification. “Chiropractic is based on a metaphysical epistemology that is not amenable to positivist research or experiment.”


Early chiropractic displayed many characteristics of a religion. Both D.D. Palmer and his son, B.J. Palmer, seriously considered establishing chiropractic as a religion.

~underlining added by me~

It is suggested I am insane but I dare conclude that sanity and insanity is a matter of popular opinion :p

Now for my own contribution.


Is the scientific publishing of complementary and alternative medicine objective? (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10630352)

We evaluated whether information and opinions presented in this editorial and article are objective or not. We found that these examples reflect, at best, misinformation or misunderstanding of the field, or at worst, disingenuousness. We consider the possibility that this apparent bias may be due to the fact that some of the concepts implicit in alternative medicine are outside the current biomedical framework. Yet, it is only by exploring knowledge outside the boundaries of existing dogmas that real (as opposed to incremental) progress can occur.


As someone in the medical profession myself I fail to understand the either or approach to medical treatments in general = why not as many option as possible.

Why not approach an illness with medicine and prayer?

The best evidence based medical approaches merely make healing favorable however the body must be capable of doing the actual healing.

ADHD medication alone do not treat ADHD in the long term but are a tool which manipulates the brain chemistry in a manner will allow the individual an increased chance of being able to adopt symptom based strategies.

In the end there is no evidence based medical treatment for life or death!!!!!

As far as spinal manipulation of infants I will have to look into it order to have an opinion one way or the other - Right now my only relevant opinion is one I must take up with my pillow and blanket :D


.......

Kunga Dorji
12-08-13, 06:02 AM
Please excuse my meds are gone but based upon my review I am unsure of where you get that these are chiropractor friendly especially the second link which actually speaks of chiropractors practice in religious and metaphysical context is toned in a noticeable hostile manner.

from source one

Chiropractic spinal manipulation for infant colic: a systematic review of randomised clinical trials (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1742-1241.2009.02133.x/full#b9)

The aim of this systematic review was to critically evaluate the data from randomized clinical trials of chiropractic spinal manipulation as a treatment of infant colic.

Click on the table one reveals the following 556 research articles located, 52 articles reviewed, 48 excluded due to criteria failure , 4 research articles - so what they determined was based upon 4 clinical trails included

continued from source 1

Numerous weaknesses of the primary data would prevent firm conclusions, even if the results of all RCTs had been unanimously positive.

Okay now for the ADHD dyslexic review = wtf

Why did they bother if they started out knowing that the conclusion were not going to be conclusive - "I will not talk in class" x 5 pages if I write big it takes up space.

Next

Chiropractic: A Critical Evaluation (http://www.jpsmjournal.com/article/S0885-3924%2807%2900783-X/fulltext)

The history of chiropractic is “rooted in quasi-mystical concepts. Bonesetters of various types are part of the folk medicine of most cultures and bonesetting also formed the basis on which chiropractic developed.

There is evidence to suggest that D.D. Palmer had learned manipulative techniques from Andrew Taylor Still (1828–1917), the founder of osteopathy. He combined the skills of a bonesetter with the background of a magnetic healer and claimed that “chiropractic was not evolved from medicine or any other method, except that of magnetic.” He coined the term “innate intelligence” (or “innate”) for the assumed “energy” or “vital force,” which, according to the magnetic healers of that time, enables the body to heal itself. The “innate” defies quantification. “Chiropractic is based on a metaphysical epistemology that is not amenable to positivist research or experiment.”


Early chiropractic displayed many characteristics of a religion. Both D.D. Palmer and his son, B.J. Palmer, seriously considered establishing chiropractic as a religion.

~underlining added by me~

It is suggested I am insane but I dare conclude that sanity and insanity is a matter of popular opinion :p

Now for my own contribution.


Is the scientific publishing of complementary and alternative medicine objective? (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10630352)

We evaluated whether information and opinions presented in this editorial and article are objective or not. We found that these examples reflect, at best, misinformation or misunderstanding of the field, or at worst, disingenuousness. We consider the possibility that this apparent bias may be due to the fact that some of the concepts implicit in alternative medicine are outside the current biomedical framework. Yet, it is only by exploring knowledge outside the boundaries of existing dogmas that real (as opposed to incremental) progress can occur.




.......

Thanks for this meadd-- the breakdown of existing dogmas is vital for real progress.

The issue is that what I have presented here has nothing to do with the first primitive attempts of chiropractors to explain why their techniques worked.

The issue is that I have presented data from a mainstream medical source that happens to coincide with chiropractic approaches.


As far as chiropractic goes, it is over a century since the death of D.D. Palmer. When he hit upon his techniques he was struggling to explain them from a technical pint of view.

Chiropractic currently looks at subluxations from a more sophisticated neurological view point- and it is now possible to understand from the point of view of anatomy and physiology exactly what mechanisms involving the vestibular and autonomic systems will produce the problems that chiropractic aims to treat.

From this point of view I find it disturbing that my medical colleagues do not even approach the level of sophisticated understanding of human movement exhibited by the chiropractors.

As far as "quasi- religious" points of view go- I am working hard at my own little side project of providing a basic anatomic- physiological explanation of the reasons that yoga practice can be expected to improve attention. I am confident that I will have the whole lot expressed in terms that will be clear and easy to understand for even the most intellectually rigid doctor- given about another 12 months!

Now there is a big problem with metanalyses of manual therapy-- and it is a very simple one.

The metanalyses available to date simply do not compare "apples with apples". They are sloppy.

Kunga Dorji
12-08-13, 06:06 AM
As someone in the medical profession myself I fail to understand the either or approach to medical treatments in general = why not as many option as possible.

Why not approach an illness with medicine and prayer?

The best evidence based medical approaches merely make healing favorable however the body must be capable of doing the actual healing.

.......

The body must be capable of doing the actual healing-- now that is the most overtly chiropractor friendly statement I have heard on this website!

Amtram
12-08-13, 02:27 PM
Well if you all want to discuss a practice that was made up by an unemployed grocer based on an unverified success story that has no plausible biological mechanism for doing most of the things it claims to be able to do and has not been shown to produce results in controlled conditions except by its own practitioners as if it were "medicine," then go ahead. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiropractic_controversy_and_criticism)

meadd, I did not say that the articles were chiropractic-friendly. I said that Ernst included references from chiropractic-friendly sources. This is how he collected the claims made by chiropractors, learned how they explained their methods and results, so he could investigate how well they held up against other scientific and medical evidence. This is why he presented it as not sound science - because each time it's tested with scientific rigor, it fails to live up to its claims, and because many of the mechanisms it's based on do not exist in the human body.

And this "gentle manipulation" has led to infant deaths (http://www.csicop.org/si/show/should_chiropractors_treat_children/). Adults have suffered strokes, paralysis, and death as well. (What's the harm? (http://whatstheharm.net/chiropractic.html) hasn't been updated in a while, but there's no shortage of examples.) If a practice does not produce the results it promises while simultaneously carrying a high degree of risk, it's not medicine.

Chiropractors get to put an MD after their names, but they don't have to study anatomy. Or many of the other things that full MDs are required to know. If they did, they would probably not go into chiropractic.

Kunga Dorji
12-08-13, 07:34 PM
Well if you all want to discuss a practice that was made up by an unemployed grocer based on an unverified success story that has no plausible biological mechanism for doing most of the things it claims to be able to do and has not been shown to produce results in controlled conditions except by its own practitioners as if it were "medicine," then go ahead. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiropractic_controversy_and_criticism)

meadd, I did not say that the articles were chiropractic-friendly. I said that Ernst included references from chiropractic-friendly sources. This is how he collected the claims made by chiropractors, learned how they explained their methods and results, so he could investigate how well they held up against other scientific and medical evidence. This is why he presented it as not sound science - because each time it's tested with scientific rigor, it fails to live up to its claims, and because many of the mechanisms it's based on do not exist in the human body.

And this "gentle manipulation" has led to infant deaths (http://www.csicop.org/si/show/should_chiropractors_treat_children/). Adults have suffered strokes, paralysis, and death as well. (What's the harm? (http://whatstheharm.net/chiropractic.html) hasn't been updated in a while, but there's no shortage of examples.) If a practice does not produce the results it promises while simultaneously carrying a high degree of risk, it's not medicine.

Chiropractors get to put an MD after their names, but they don't have to study anatomy. Or many of the other things that full MDs are required to know. If they did, they would probably not go into chiropractic.

Amtram- I will have to go into some detail to get the exact rates of side effects- and that may take some time.
However the incidence of stroke in adults quoted to me when I last signed a consent form for chiropractic treatment was about 1/500,000- with the study referenced.

Compare this with the incidence of say fulminant necrosing hepatitis from Flucloxacillin or Amocycillin/Clavulanic Acid of 1/20,000. That condition has a 50% fatality rate- and these antibitics are in common usage- and the risks to patients are almost never quoted.

You refer to Chiropractors calling themselves MD.

However- this thread IS NOT about chiropractors or their evidence and in fact bringing chiropractors in at all is only muddying the waters.

I will post Heiner Biedermann's profile from Linked In:


Heiner Biedermann

Medical Doctor, Cologne Area Germany

I was born in 1952 in southern Germany and raised in Stuttgart where I went to school. I studied Chemistry, Chinese and Medicine in Munich and Tübingen between 1970 and 1976.

After an internship in several hospitals in southern Germany I worked in a specialised clinic for manual therapy from 1979 till 1981 (Klinik f. Manuelle Medizin, Hamm/Westf.). Between 1981 and 1982 I was drafted and worked in an army hospital in Hamburg as an assistant orthopaedic surgeon. From 1982 till 1990 I worked in Schwerte, first as a assistant surgeon, later as a senior physician.

Since 1991 I work in a private consultation, first in Dortmund, from 2004 on in Cologne, specialising in Manual Medicine a/o conservative orthopaedics, mainly children and adolescents.

Extensive lecturing in Manual Medicine, primarily regarding the work with children and radiology.

Research projects in collaboration with the Universities of Münster (Dept. Biomechanics 1980-86), Bochum (Biopsychology 1998) and Cologne (Pediatrics since 2001, Anatomy 2009).

Since 1981 I live in Antwerp (Belgium) where most of my research and teaching takes place.


His publications are listed here
http://www.pph34.de/index.php/heiner-biedermann/
but you would need to use google translate.


So I hope that we are clear that
1) I am talking about a Medical Doctor

Re Chiropractic- as it has been brought up:
what I will say is
That all treatments have side effects- but the overall evidence is that allopathic medical treatments are much higher risk overall than alternative ones.

That metanalyses that claim no benefit have usually been based on an incomplete survey of the literature, and comparisons of dissimilar treatments.

from your reference:

There is no credible evidence to support the contention that subluxation correction will restore or maintain health or that such subluxations even exist (College 1996; Mirtz 2009).

There is a problem here with confusing absence of evidence with evidence of absence.

I can quote from personal experience here having done CT scans on a number of patients with significant neck problems:
It was an eye opener to me when a CT came back with a 23 degree rotation of the atlas- so bad that the atlas had ridden right over the front of the occipital condyle- but the radiologist reported it as normal.
Even when I phoned the man up and argued with him he was reluctant to report the finding.

Now- on the subject of evidence, there has been a very pleasing recent development:
This comes from the Atlas Profilax team:

Recently a radiologist in Latin America became aware of the claims of Atlas Profilax re the prevalence of Atlas subluxations. He was dubious enough to sit down and do a retrospective study of cervical CTs that had gone through his lab- but was surprised to find a very high incidence of maligned/ subluxed atlanto occipital joints.

The outcome was that he became an Atlas Profilax practitioner himself - and is now conducting more extensive research.
The first study that I have encountered as a result of his work is this one:
http://www.atlasprofilax.la/para-profesionales-de-la-salud/estudios-cientificos-imagenologicos/

Google translate will give you a reasonable translation- but not perfect.

This is really quite exciting news.

Your article references absence of plausible mechanism for the injury causing the disabilities it does- but there are multiple plausible mechanisms - ranging from
-muscle spasm,
-distorted proprioceptive information causing mild imbalance and chronic stress response,
-distorted proprioceptive information leading to excessive demand on working memory due to issues with need to pay more attention than is natural to body movement (see Biedermann's work- already referenced above)
-secondary poor posture also triggering a sympathetic drive. See the 2 studies referenced here:
http://www.stephenporges.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=4&Itemid=10
- poor posture leading to traction on the spinal cord (notably the spinothalamic tracts)and that generating pain distally
- pain from multiple sources causing a stress response and disrupting sleep - both items leading to degraded attention
- torsion on the dura mater leading to disruption of CSF flow around the spinal cord and to disruption of venous drainage from the skull.
Both of the latter effects have been demonstrated radiologically:
http://www.upright-health.com/cerebrospinal-fluid.html
and
http://www.upright-health.com/ccsvi.html
http://www.upright-health.com/backjets.html

Finally- on the risks of chiropractic in children, again from your reference:


High-velocity, low-amplitude thrusting, commonly used by chiropractors, is usually the type of manipulation that injures a child’s spine

- but the problem is that this is not the technique that is done on infants.in infants all that is needed is a tiny nudge with the tip of the thumb- a mobilisation. The undeveloped musculature of the infant's neck allows this treatment to be effective.

Now I will have to let this stand for some time- as I have work to do in setting up my new practice, but please do not take silence from me as me not being willing to supply evidence.

TygerSan
12-08-13, 07:53 PM
My experience with doctors in Europe is that they have a much more holistic approach to medicine than is generally found in the US, and are more willing to employ techniques that would be considered alternative treatments in the US, so it really doesn't surprise me that the author is an MD.

Kunga, thanks for addressing the rate of side effects. I was curious about the rate of strokes in adults, as that seems to be the biggest concern (and the most attention grabbing of claims from those opposed to cervical manipulation).

Personally, I have to say I'm very interested in the information you've presented so far. I did not suffer from headaches as a kid, nor do I particularly now, but I *was* a forceps delivery who has had fine and gross motor difficulties, sensory integration dysfunction, and eye tracking issues. I also have very low tone in my correct.

Kunga Dorji
12-08-13, 08:27 PM
My experience with doctors in Europe is that they have a much more holistic approach to medicine than is generally found in the US, and are more willing to employ techniques that would be considered alternative treatments in the US, so it really doesn't surprise me that the author is an MD.

Kunga, thanks for addressing the rate of side effects. I was curious about the rate of strokes in adults, as that seems to be the biggest concern (and the most attention grabbing of claims from those opposed to cervical manipulation).

Personally, I have to say I'm very interested in the information you've presented so far. I did not suffer from headaches as a kid, nor do I particularly now, but I *was* a forceps delivery who has had fine and gross motor difficulties, sensory integration dysfunction, and eye tracking issues. I also have very low tone in my correct.

Thanks.
It is a bit of a battle putting this up- but I have seen such dramatic benefits from this type of treatment in so many people that I honestly feel it would be unethical not to put the information up for consideration.

Medicine operates on a very corporatist model (see John Ralston Saul) and is very paternalistic.
We don't like patients being empowered and making their own decisions and themedicolegal situation has created a state of affairs where nobody will do anything unless the whole herd goes along with them.

My personal experience has been that I have had many patients ask me about alternative treatments. I used to try and dissuade patients from going down that route- but then I noticed 3 things- I would either lose the patient totally because they thought I was too narrow minded, or they would come back improved and I would have learned something, or they would not tell me about the treatment and I might end up prescribing something that would clash with their treatment.

Kunga Dorji
12-08-13, 08:30 PM
Well if you all want to discuss a practice that was made up by an unemployed grocer based on an unverified success story that has no plausible biological mechanism for doing most of the things it claims to be able to do and has not been shown to produce results in controlled conditions except by its own practitioners as if it were "medicine," then go ahead. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiropractic_controversy_and_criticism)

meadd, I did not say that the articles were chiropractic-friendly. I said that Ernst included references from chiropractic-friendly sources. This is how he collected the claims made by chiropractors, learned how they explained their methods and results, so he could investigate how well they held up against other scientific and medical evidence. This is why he presented it as not sound science - because each time it's tested with scientific rigor, it fails to live up to its claims, and because many of the mechanisms it's based on do not exist in the human body.

And this "gentle manipulation" has led to infant deaths (http://www.csicop.org/si/show/should_chiropractors_treat_children/). Adults have suffered strokes, paralysis, and death as well. (What's the harm? (http://whatstheharm.net/chiropractic.html) hasn't been updated in a while, but there's no shortage of examples.) If a practice does not produce the results it promises while simultaneously carrying a high degree of risk, it's not medicine.

Chiropractors get to put an MD after their names, but they don't have to study anatomy. Or many of the other things that full MDs are required to know. If they did, they would probably not go into chiropractic.

Oh-- and "gentle manipulation" is an oxymoron-- its use illustrates that you are confusing two techniques.

Kunga Dorji
12-08-13, 09:09 PM
Finally- on credible evidence of the subluxation (this latin american website just keeps on getting more interesting:
http://www.atlasprofilax.la/para-profesionales-de-la-salud/videos-e-imagenes-del-estudio/

Now it is possible to imagine that some of these neck distortions might just be transient- but following an individual patient, and looking for old photogra[hs will show that this is not the case.

janiew
12-08-13, 09:39 PM
Surely there are multiple causes - pregnancy and birth issues, environmental including diet, and, of course, genetics.

In my case, pretty sure it's genetic complicated by whatever... :)

dvdnvwls
12-09-13, 03:45 AM
Looking up "Atlas Profilax" online reveals that it is "non-medical", "requires absolutely no diagnosis" (both direct quotations from the Canadian branch of their website), and on some random blog I read that at least one Atlas Profilax practitioner has told at least one client to stay away from all chiropractors - despite the following claim on their Canadian website: An atlas that is not in the correct position is the main cause of dysfunction in the body and the psyche. It is the main cause of pain, disability, infirmity, and degeneration. AtlasPROfilax has been shown to be effective and safe. AtlasPROfilax is not within the scope or model of chiropractic nor does it constitute a chiropractic adjustment, nor does it remove the necessity for chiropractic care. In Canada there are (again according to their website) a total of four Atlas Profilax practitioners, whose names I proceeded to Google - the four people turn out to be an aesthetician, a sports coach, a massage therapist, and a person who does "quantum healing" regression hypnosis.

purpleToes
12-09-13, 09:25 AM
There are a lot of medical conditions that have symptoms that overlap symptoms of ADHD but that doesn't mean those conditions are ADHD or even cousins to ADHD. I read this whole thread and I can't see any clear chain of logic linking subluxation of the atlas occipital joint to ADHD, just some loosely grouped symptoms. Could such an injury produce some inattention due to stress and pain and loss of sleep? OK, maybe. But then so could lots of injuries and deformations. Even if it produces all of those sensorimotor issues mentioned, that's still not even part of ADHD, in fact sensorimotor issues would be a differential diagnosis for ADHD.

The syndromes Biederman is describing don't sound anything ADHD unless you squint very hard.

If I'm totally missing the point, please someone clue me in.

SB_UK
12-09-13, 10:00 AM
Isn't there any chance that chronic (di)stress drives the back to deform ie that it's yet another of the many nasty consequences of stress ?

Here's the idea (http://www.spine-health.com/conditions/depression/how-does-stress-cause-back-pain):
... ... psychological and emotional factors cause some type of physical change resulting in the back pain.


-*-

ADHD is stress sensitivity* in a di-stressing environment ?
Nothing we can do about the stress sensitivity (or at least what underlies it) ... however ... there's everything we can do about the environment.

* Why stress sensitive ? - because we're not getting the reward we're designed to access and so express stress sensitivity ie need for reward in a bottle, self-medication etc
Stress sensitivity which is easily stressed.

SB_UK
12-09-13, 10:27 AM
You know - there's ever such a lot of what came first ? in medical research.

And it looks as though all disease simply comes back to downstream consequences of life in inequality/social hierarchy.

The last video I saw on this (TED) made the point that the increase in disease (across the board) affects each strata of society (from the very richest to the very poorest) in an unequal society (relative to more equal societies)
- however, where, though - the lower one finds oneself regardless of the extent of inequality in one's local society - the greater the disease.

Just stress.

(DI)Stress breaks everything via the immune system (cortisol) and the mitochondria (driving oxidative stress).

Our problem is simply that we can't see that we're under stress because we've always been under it - and we're striving (as people attempt to make more money) to make it worse for one and all.

SB_UK
12-09-13, 10:41 AM
Since the epidemiologists have shown that distress/inequality results in an increase in all-cause mortality
- so we can make the statement that all causes of death are driven by DIstress/inequality.

That is - that there's a simple single basis to disease.

It has to be this way - if increasing inequality/social hierarchy results in an increase in all-cause mortality and not just a couple of diseases
- which the data appears to be showing.

Just 1 significant basis to disease.

Articles all over the Internet eg google#1 on 'all cause mortality inequality'

Socioeconomic inequalities in all-cause mortality in the Czech Republic, Russia, Poland and Lithuania in the 2000s: findings from the HAPIEE Study (http://jech.bmj.com/content/early/2013/11/13/jech-2013-203057.abstract)


As expected, given the high mortality rates in Russian men, largest absolute inequalities were found among Russian men ...

Amtram
12-09-13, 11:42 AM
Another thing that's confusing is that chiropractic is based on the idea that the body has an "Innate Intelligence" to heal itself. . .but if it did, then why would we need chiropractic?

We're not talking about absence of evidence. There's loads of evidence that needs to be ignored in order to conclude that chiropractic can do anything except maybe make your back feel a little better.

Abi
12-09-13, 12:00 PM
Isn't there any chance that chronic (di)stress drives the back to deform ie that it's yet another of the many nasty consequences of stress ?

:doh: :doh: :doh:

SB_UK
12-09-13, 12:12 PM
[corrections in brackets]

Since the epidemiologists have shown that distress/inequality results in an increase in all-cause mortality
- so we can make the statement that all causes of death [are <- CAN BE] driven by DIstress/inequality.

That is - that there's a [possible] simple single basis to disease.

It has to be this way - if increasing inequality/social hierarchy results in an increase in all-cause mortality and not just a couple of diseases
- which the data appears to be showing.

And today's newspaper has the other important part to the story.
~S (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/10504774/Mediterranean-diet-key-to-dementia-battle-PM-told.html)~

“The evidence base for the Mediterranean diet in preventing all of the chronic diseases that are plaguing the Western world is overwhelming.”
Bringing us back once again to disease being the interaction of inequality/social hierarchy with diet.
Where inequality/social hierarchy is definitely causal on a poor diet.

Exactly the same conclusion which we reached on the Athos study.

Health = equality x diet

“Poor diet causes more diseases than physical inactivity plus smoking plus alcohol combined.” So - of course exercise appropriately, do no smoke, do not drink
- eat well

- but outside of your control and most important of all.

Live in an equal (complete equality) society*.

*How ?
Survival essentials available to all for free through contributing personal effort.

In fact though - living in an unequal society -> leads to -> distress -> leads to -> poor diet, lack of exercise, smoking and alcohol consumption
... ... and so we don't actually need to worry about any of the downstream consequences of distress/stress relief from inequality

- simply correct the root problem (as described above) - and all of our downstream issues (which lead to disease) will go away.

Just seen the importance of the immune system (ie suppressed during chemotherapy - you're at risk of death from simple common bugs)
- we need cortisol sensitivity - we need our immune system to be in perfect shape to help us fend off infectious diseases / not get waylaid into autoimmune diseases
- and you're not going to have cortisol sensitivity if you're under chronic stress ... ... the rule is that under high levels of any hormone - resistance syndromes occur.

daveddd
12-10-13, 09:39 AM
i do know much about this

my dad though who has all of our symptoms, has had back pain

it started in his late thirties maybe, and now he is 60 and has trouble moving around

the back pain to this day has remained unidentified by doctors

Kunga Dorji
12-10-13, 10:25 AM
Another thing that's confusing is that chiropractic is based on the idea that the body has an "Innate Intelligence" to heal itself. . .but if it did, then why would we need chiropractic?

We're not talking about absence of evidence. There's loads of evidence that needs to be ignored in order to conclude that chiropractic can do anything except maybe make your back feel a little better.


Amtram.
I am sorry that you have such difficulty accepting evidence from allopathic medical sources without confusing it with chiropractic.

Now-- as far as this thread goes-- I have done what I consider to be my duty.

I have spent many thousands of hours now researching and cross referencing this information.

I have put my career and reputation on the line, simply because I felt morally obliged to bring valuable information to a wider audience.

Despite that, I have won. I am walking into the dream job as of next week, and fully expect to be published and actively researched in my own right within a couple of years.

All I can do is put credible and well researched information up for consideration.

I have no intention of coercing or pressuring anyone into doing anything that they do not want to do.

So far as chiropractic goes- my profession, the allopathic medical profession thrives on coercion, on argument by authority, and illegitimate attempts to stifle legitimate competition. The American AMA has faced severe judicial sanctions over its attitude to chiropractic.
There are many evidence based guidelines and protocols for right round the world that recognise the legitimate place of chiropractic.

I am not even going to go there - as the data that I have collected on that would take way too long to type out.

However- my information is out. I have done my due diligence.
I have done that despite personal risk, and I have taken that step because I am well aware of the facts of both my own case and of a good number of other cases (approx 200 in all- not all ADHD).

Quite frankly, for me not to have gone to this effort and risk would have been immoral.

So-- for those who are interested-- there is plenty of material here on this thread.

Further links to supporting evidence can be supplied to anyone who cares to pm me.

Kunga Dorji
12-10-13, 10:27 AM
i do know much about this

my dad though who has all of our symptoms, has had back pain

it started in his late thirties maybe, and now he is 60 and has trouble moving around

the back pain to this day has remained unidentified by doctors

So- why regard them as authoritative sources of treatment.

If their treatment fails-- why not look elsewhere?

It took a huge push to get me to change my views- but I was rewarded for my open mindedness.

Kunga Dorji
12-10-13, 10:42 AM
Surely there are multiple causes - pregnancy and birth issues, environmental including diet, and, of course, genetics.

In my case, pretty sure it's genetic complicated by whatever... :)

You are quite right- If I have not put tht detail up so far it was only because I was focussing on the main clinical details to raise awareness.

Biedermann notes that the injury appears to occur in about 1/3 of all the births he studied.
Subsequent trauma can also cause the problem-- but in terms of ADHD a trauma at say age 10 could not cause ADHD- as the childs neurological development has progressed too far.

Biedermann notes that KISS/KIDD run in families just like ADHD does-- and that it tends to be transmitted along sex linked lines. IE IT may run more in the female side of one family or the male side of another.

He also notes that the injury is much commoner with some particular variants of vertebral shape - and that these variants appear to be what is inherted genetically/epigenetically.

So far as birth trauma goes- Biedermann has 2 chapters.
Please excuse the very condensed summary:

Chapter 7: Birthing interventions and the newborn cervical spine

Dorin Ritzmann Dr Med FMHG (Gynaecology/Obstetrics) Cert Med Hypnosis Trauma Therapy (EMDR Francine Shapiro)
Zurich Switzerland


Issues re female pelvic shape
Need for movement in the sacro-iliac joints to allow birth (relaxin)
Risky situations in birth:
Arrested parturition
Extremely rapid delivery
breech delivery
Delivery of infants with deflected heads.
Risky Interventions
Kristeller fundal pressure;
Traction from beneath.
Rotatory forceps


Traction: experiments on dead foetuses.
Cx spine can stretch 5.6 cm before it breaks.
BUT Spinal cord can only withstand 0.7cm stretch before it ruptures.


Rotation:
Horizontal facet joints not at all adapted to rotatory forces.


Spinal Shock: P81
The leading symptom complex of spinal cord trauma
Early smptoms:
early neonatal death, respiratory depression, gasping, hypotonic muscles
Late symptoms:
Spasticty, paraplegia, atonic bladder.
Upper Cx spine: gastrointestinal kinetic problems- spasms of pylorus, gastrooesophageal backflow and hypertonic jejunum- risk of relapsing pneumonia
Also- brachial plexus injuries and Erb's, Klumke's paralysis, Horner's Syndrome.


Overall incidence of Cx spine and brainstem injury is not known.
Likely that squatting position and water birth are safer.
Aim to minimise disturbance to mother and child in the birth process.

Kunga Dorji
12-10-13, 10:47 AM
Chapter 8: Birth Trauma and its implications for neuromotor development.
R Sacher MD (Private Practitioner and member of the European Workgroup for Manual Medicine (EWMM) Dortmund Germany


P87: Biomechanical aspects of delivery:
Anteflexion places maximal stress on cervical spine, retroflexion the least-- therefore occipitoposterior presentation minimises tension on the cervical spine


Classical injuries to the (cervical) spine from trauma


Exact incidence unknown- subtle and variable clinical picture, probably underreported.
Rossich et Al (1992) report misdiagnosis of 4 out of 5 cases where there was severe injury to the cord.
Structures of the spinal cord are NOT routinely included in Autopsy
Towbin (1990) identified relevant injuries to brainstem and spinal cord in 10% of such autopsies.


Mode of Delivery
approx 30% of peripartum spinal injuries involved cephalic presentations
Breech- lower cervical and upper dorsal injuries more common,
except the 5% who present with hyperextension of the fetal neck – then 25% have upper cervical injury
Forceps- may also involve increased risk of cervical injury
Additional risk factors:
premature birth, precipitate delivery, multiple fetuses, shoulder dystocia, birthweight above 4000g and post maturity.


REFS on pp97-98
The Clinical picture P89:
Breathing dysfunction in first 4 weeks of life is the cardinal symptom of injuries in this area
APGAR- primarily as neurological assessment of upper Cx cord for irritability or brainstem injuries.


Disruptions of the vertebrobasilar circulation produce secondary spastic-hypertonic dyskinesia of the small intestine, pylorospasm and gastro-oesophageal reflux.
Swallowing disorders, constant regurgitation, frequent nausea & aspiration pneumonia, also frequent UTIs- all risk factors.
Various syndrome associated with lower Cx or brachial plexus injury




Craniocervical Blockages in the newborn P91
Buchman and Bulow (1983) found upper cervical dysfunctions in about 1/3 of newborn infants (n=683)
Forceps delivery was a statistically significant risk factor.
Biedermann (1999) was able to demonstrate a connection between reversible arthrogenous dysfunctions of the spine in infants and the newborn, and birth traumas.


Particular risk factors:
forceps, vacuum extraction, multiple pregnancies, breech presentations, prolonged expulsion period and transverse lie.


Neurophysiological Aspects of upper cervical dysfunction P92
Notes the vital role of integration of afferent impulses from the upper cervical spine for control of body support. For infants these tonic reflexes of position and support are particularly important (as other aspects of perception are still immature)


The neurophysiological system here, together with the immaturity of the sensorimotor system in early infancy means that craniocervical blockages in infants have special potency.
There is an association with reactions of the afferent aspect of proprioception, in which the impairment of motor performance and the difference in the flow of information to the receptors from each side must play a part, (as is the case with the labyrinths) (Hulse et al 1998)
Blockage also leads to the known nociceptive, vegetative and myofascial reactions and to effects on joint mechanics.
Predisposed infants develop a set of symptoms that extends beyond the local effect of craniocervical blockage- known as KISS syndrome.


Clinical Investigations
Sacher (2003) studied 403 infants and confirmed that the risk profiles for classical cervical birth trauma are also responsible for causing craniocervical blockage in symptomatic individuals.
Sacher R (2003) Die Gerburstraumatische Gefahrdung der infantilen (Hals-) Wirbesaule. Pad- Pratische Paediatrie 3:222-225.


30% - no previous risk factors
2/3 had risk factors
-Kristeller's maneuver (pressing on uterine fundus) >50% of the deliveries resulting in craniocervical blockage.
-Extraction aids used in 38 cases- but 71% also had Kristaller's maneuver performed.
-Caesarian section in 35 % of deliveries.Main risk fact or was abnormal foetal position (40%) but 30% were simple elective caesarians and still developed craniocervical blockage.
-The most severe birth injuries were observed with emergency caesarian section.
-Other risks
breech, intubation, short expulsion period (<10 minutes) birthweight above 4000g, Premature births, post term births
Occipito posterior presentation – in 10 infants- 3% of all cases- but OP occurs in only 05-1% of cephalic presentations, Limb prolapse presentation.
[/quote]


Again- very mainstream medical info that I can feel comfortable putting up for inspection. There is not even a hint of any "unorthodoxy" here.


Again-- the emphasis is on the enormous number of conventional medical practitioners who have co-operated in the assembly of this data and in the writing of this book.

meadd823
12-10-13, 11:31 AM
Well if you all want to discuss a practice that was made up by an unemployed grocer based on an unverified success story that has no plausible biological mechanism for doing most of the things it claims to be able to do and has not been shown to produce results in controlled conditions except by its own practitioners as if it were "medicine," then go ahead. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiropractic_controversy_and_criticism)

meadd, I did not say that the articles were chiropractic-friendly. I said that Ernst included references from chiropractic-friendly sources. This is how he collected the claims made by chiropractors, learned how they explained their methods and results, so he could investigate how well they held up against other scientific and medical evidence. This is why he presented it as not sound science - because each time it's tested with scientific rigor, it fails to live up to its claims, and because many of the mechanisms it's based on do not exist in the human body.

And this "gentle manipulation" has led to infant deaths (http://www.csicop.org/si/show/should_chiropractors_treat_children/). Adults have suffered strokes, paralysis, and death as well. (What's the harm? (http://whatstheharm.net/chiropractic.html) hasn't been updated in a while, but there's no shortage of examples.) If a practice does not produce the results it promises while simultaneously carrying a high degree of risk, it's not medicine.

Chiropractors get to put an MD after their names, but they don't have to study anatomy. Or many of the other things that full MDs are required to know. If they did, they would probably not go into chiropractic.

I am on the way out the door to go to work - new job orientation so I am on some one else's schedule - however I did want to address paragraph two

This one
If a practice does not produce the results it promises while simultaneously carrying a high degree of risk, it's not medicine.

According to this statement chemotherapy is not medicine - There is an extremely high risk involved with it's use because it is poison - So I must ask why would any one deny chiropractic a medical status while allowing chemo to have one!!!!!

The sources themselves I will have to look at when I get back home from work this evening.

Your rebuttal is appreciated so I do want to give it the attention it deserves but my co-worker is due at the door any minute now .

SB_UK
12-10-13, 12:03 PM
I wonder if anybody has ever analysed the back of people who start and continue with yoga ... ... just strikes me that they'd have lovely spinal columns.

Not at all like mine which is wonked up the wazoo.

(Incidentally I know what wazoo means now)

Medical research is everywhere :-)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3048237/

Magnetic resonance imaging showed that the group of long-term practitioners of yoga studied had significantly less degenerative disc disease than a matched control group.I know that Barliman and my own problem are similar and involve lumbar disc degeneration ... ...

All that I'd add is that DIstress (personal experience) is associated with muscles tightening, not relaxing - against which stretching/yoga isn't possible,
It sometimes feels as if I'm welded inflexibly together - just muscular stiffness.

Don't think that there's any real way of enjoying the benefits of flexibility whilst under stress - you're in a losing fight against your own muscles.

But you knew I'd say that :-) right ?

Yoga reduces chronic spinal pain; one reason might be that the stretching and positioning of the spine that occur during yoga exercises decrease the gradual disc degeneration that occurs with age.

To the best of our knowledge, there has been to date no original study using MRI to compare the spines of yoga practitioners and non-practitioners.

That's strange 2011 and no study - when it's so clearly one of the more important questions we need answer; good that the authors have filled the gap.

4mygirlsnme
12-10-13, 01:00 PM
I am no doctor, I did spend more than 15 years in pre-hospital, ER, Internal Medicine, and General Practice care in the military though. I have a pretty good grasp of the Human body and now it works. I say this because I want you to know my background while reading this.

I have spent 4 years now investigating the "correct" treatments for my daughters' (8yr old twins) severe ADHD symptoms. To date, we still have not got it right. They are both heavily medicated, more than one med each with still ever upwards adjustments being made to the dose. They are now in half day treatment at a facility before going to school where they are being taught "social skills" but they tell us the only time they have fun is "when L (one of the girls there) is being spanked cuz she's being naughty".... WHAT?????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????

Yes due to our financial and other personal issues, they went there today. What am I to do? they will continue in this way until we get it right, continue to be taunted by their peers, misunderstood by anyone they meet initially, and even receive the same horrible treatment by us their parents because we are not yet "in the know" so to speak in how to break the cycle.

I have just recently come across Dr. John Bergman in CA. Way to far for me to go there but he does have more than 400 videos on how immunity plays a role as well as birth trauma, and environment. I am in no way toting this guy, he makes a ton of sense, he even puts down doctors (sorry Doc) for the way in which what he calls "dis-ease" is managed in the allopathic model. Look I am no expert, I look for truly sensible information and have found what the Doc here has found to be something taken very seriously.

Doc, I have the utmost respect for you. I have never worked with a physician whose beliefs were archaic or not at least dynamic. My favorite was an ER doc who lived in his books. I asked him why he used books, didn't he go to school? he replied that his job is guess work in a white coat. He knows and has memorized tons of stuff. Only though those things that let him go to the correct place to get the right answer to the patient's problem.
I thank you for getting this information and disseminating it to all of us. Many of us have spent years in difficult lives ourselves but I see here that there is hope that I may find the answer before my girls have to endure too much more.

I am sorry I rambled, my ADHD makes it nearly impossible to write without doing so and proofreading will only make it worse, possibly longer.. :)
Have a great day and Doc, keep this stuff coming along with your professional and rational look at it and I will keep reading it.

Kunga Dorji
12-10-13, 04:39 PM
I am no doctor, I did spend more than 15 years in pre-hospital, ER, Internal Medicine, and General Practice care in the military though. I have a pretty good grasp of the Human body and now it works. I say this because I want you to know my background while reading this.

I have spent 4 years now investigating the "correct" treatments for my daughters' (8yr old twins) severe ADHD symptoms. To date, we still have not got it right. They are both heavily medicated, more than one med each with still ever upwards adjustments being made to the dose. They are now in half day treatment at a facility before going to school where they are being taught "social skills" but they tell us the only time they have fun is "when L (one of the girls there) is being spanked cuz she's being naughty".... WHAT?????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????

Yes due to our financial and other personal issues, they went there today. What am I to do? they will continue in this way until we get it right, continue to be taunted by their peers, misunderstood by anyone they meet initially, and even receive the same horrible treatment by us their parents because we are not yet "in the know" so to speak in how to break the cycle.

I have just recently come across Dr. John Bergman in CA. Way to far for me to go there but he does have more than 400 videos on how immunity plays a role as well as birth trauma, and environment. I am in no way toting this guy, he makes a ton of sense, he even puts down doctors (sorry Doc) for the way in which what he calls "dis-ease" is managed in the allopathic model. Look I am no expert, I look for truly sensible information and have found what the Doc here has found to be something taken very seriously.

Doc, I have the utmost respect for you. I have never worked with a physician whose beliefs were archaic or not at least dynamic. My favorite was an ER doc who lived in his books. I asked him why he used books, didn't he go to school? he replied that his job is guess work in a white coat. He knows and has memorized tons of stuff. Only though those things that let him go to the correct place to get the right answer to the patient's problem.
I thank you for getting this information and disseminating it to all of us. Many of us have spent years in difficult lives ourselves but I see here that there is hope that I may find the answer before my girls have to endure too much more.

I am sorry I rambled, my ADHD makes it nearly impossible to write without doing so and proofreading will only make it worse, possibly longer.. :)
Have a great day and Doc, keep this stuff coming along with your professional and rational look at it and I will keep reading it.

Dr Bergman sounds impressive. I am sure that there will always be a number of different causative factors in any one case, and that to sort it out each individual ADHD patient will need to have each one assessed and managed to manage the overall syndrome.

4mygirlsnme
12-10-13, 05:30 PM
You know - there's ever such a lot of what came first ? in medical research.

And it looks as though all disease simply comes back to downstream consequences of life in inequality/social hierarchy.

The last video I saw on this (TED) made the point that the increase in disease (across the board) affects each strata of society (from the very richest to the very poorest) in an unequal society (relative to more equal societies)
- however, where, though - the lower one finds oneself regardless of the extent of inequality in one's local society - the greater the disease.

Just stress.

(DI)Stress breaks everything via the immune system (cortisol) and the mitochondria (driving oxidative stress).

Our problem is simply that we can't see that we're under stress because we've always been under it - and we're striving (as people attempt to make more money) to make it worse for one and all.

SB_UK,
First, my apologies as I am new to the forum and I interrupted your discussion earlier.
I have read some of your posts and it seems I have many similarities with you physically with my "aches and pains" so I appreciate your posts, but with your remarks above as well.
Society today is completely different from that of even 30 years ago. the toxicity and stressors to our bodies is at alarming levels.
I fear that we have lost that sense of community that was experienced in earlier generations. The expansion of the Western diet or Western lifestyle has seemed to doom us. Simpler ways are they the answer? who knows but I hope we are on the verge of real change.

Amtram
12-10-13, 06:31 PM
meadd, chemotherapy does not promise results it cannot deliver. Patients are well-informed of the possible outcomes from very specific treatments that are based on very specific types of cancer, and oncologists are upfront with their patients about whether or not chemo will improve their possibility of survival and for how long. Patients will still decide to start chemo even when their doctors advise against it because their cancers are unlikely to respond enough to give them more than a few more months' survival.

It is medicine because in the cancers it treats, it treats them effectively. It's medicine because it's a number of different drugs that are used for cancers they are shown to destroy, not some generic chemical that's dispensed to everyone with "cancer." It's a chemical that is known to be the most effective for the specific type of cancer the patient has.

It's medicine because it does not promise to cure except in cases in which cure rates are almost a given - otherwise it promises percentage of survival after different time periods - 5 years, 10 years, 15 years - which is calculated based on type of cancer, stage at diagnosis, and years of followup on treated patients.

It's medicine because it explains the known risks to patients beforehand - not all chemo produces the same side effects, not all chemo is administered as aggressively as others, not all chemo requires the same length of treatment or number of courses of treatment. This is also because it is specific to the type and stage of cancer being treated.

It's medicine because it's not recommended when it's known that it will not be effective. If a patient has a cancer that is localized and benign, he won't be given chemo. If a patient has a cancer that can be better eradicated by radiation, he won't be given chemo.

It's medicine because there's no single cause and no single treatment that's assumed to be at work. And we have studied what works and what doesn't and why it does or doesn't work so that knowledge can be used later when a different cause is discovered that could make a treatment that didn't work on something else show promise for this other cause.

Reading through the selections on upper cervical birth trauma, it looks like simply being born is a cause for not only everything that might be wrong, but also several things that are perfectly normal and resolve themselves naturally. . .but they all should be treated with chiropractic. Why? Are we really supposed to believe that SOOOO many things are wrong because we come out of a vagina and get smushed up along the way? Is this such a problem that everyone who wasn't born via C-section or stork delivery or cabbage patch harvest should be getting spinal manipulations because even if we don't think there's anything wrong, there MUST be, and chiropractic is the one thing that will cure it all?

Medicine recognizes that there is no single cause of all disease, and no single cure for all disease, and gets very specific about causes and treatments and risks of both treatment and non-treatment. It's the single cause and single treatment idea that makes chiropractic not medicine.

Lunacie
12-10-13, 06:34 PM
SB_UK,
First, my apologies as I am new to the forum and I interrupted your discussion earlier.

I have read some of your posts and it seems I have many similarities with you physically with my "aches and pains" so I appreciate your posts, but with your remarks above as well.

Society today is completely different from that of even 30 years ago. the toxicity and stressors to our bodies is at alarming levels.

I fear that we have lost that sense of community that was experienced in earlier generations. The expansion of the Western diet or Western lifestyle has seemed to doom us. Simpler ways are they the answer? who knows but I hope we are on the verge of real change.

I'm not convinced that the stress is worse now than it was for our parents or
grandparents, although it is certainly different. For example, those that lived
during the Great Depression knew some very hard times.

I believe that "community" is different now. More people are living in cities
than in small towns, and much of the social activity is on the internet rather
than face-to-face, but it's still a way of being social as part of specialized
communities (those who share similar interests).

4mygirlsnme
12-10-13, 07:13 PM
In the past 4 years, I have been on a real search for what was best for my girls. Thank goodness that my own ADHD cases me to go on thought tangents thousands of times a day because I have gained so much knowledge.
My knowledge of the great depression at the moment is not that great but I know it shows the fragility of the nation just like the dust bowl did. This shows what can happen when we get complacent or ignore key elements to our survival.
Community has changed forever I am sure but the idea of localizing more of our lives makes sense in many ways. I personally was completely enthralled by medicine. Years into it when I developed my own problems, I began to worry when they couldn’t fix me. I still send my kids to the doctor but I’m not sure that’s right. I have removed processed foods (mostly, flour, sugar, bland cereals, and oats etc. remain), I discovered a chiropractor who has what I find intriguing information even with recognizing his profession is often frowned upon.
I guess the secret to life may in fact be revealed eventually, as this stuff battles out in life. I am seeing tons of online information and forums of people talking but locally there is little going on. Most of the information I have found on ADHD, Immune system disorders, mental health disorders, conspiracy theories, go back to the 90’s and even way before. I am searching for my way to make a difference and not just at home but I have no idea where to begin..
I haven’t given up and become a survivalist but I believe that strengthening local community and discovering the real way in which we are supposed to exist on earth. I mean come on, climate change, food being called poison, kids each more sugar than ever because they can’t get away from it, all I am saying in my normal long winded way is, no wonder we can’t figure anything out “for sure” so to say.

Kunga Dorji
12-10-13, 09:22 PM
meadd, chemotherapy does not promise results it cannot deliver. Patients are well-informed of the possible outcomes from very specific treatments that are based on very specific types of cancer, and oncologists are upfront with their patients about whether or not chemo will improve their possibility of survival and for how long. Patients will still decide to start chemo even when their doctors advise against it because their cancers are unlikely to respond enough to give them more than a few more months' survival.

It is medicine because in the cancers it treats, it treats them effectively. It's medicine because it's a number of different drugs that are used for cancers they are shown to destroy, not some generic chemical that's dispensed to everyone with "cancer." It's a chemical that is known to be the most effective for the specific type of cancer the patient has.

It's medicine because it does not promise to cure except in cases in which cure rates are almost a given - otherwise it promises percentage of survival after different time periods - 5 years, 10 years, 15 years - which is calculated based on type of cancer, stage at diagnosis, and years of followup on treated patients.

It's medicine because it explains the known risks to patients beforehand - not all chemo produces the same side effects, not all chemo is administered as aggressively as others, not all chemo requires the same length of treatment or number of courses of treatment. This is also because it is specific to the type and stage of cancer being treated.

It's medicine because it's not recommended when it's known that it will not be effective. If a patient has a cancer that is localized and benign, he won't be given chemo. If a patient has a cancer that can be better eradicated by radiation, he won't be given chemo.

It's medicine because there's no single cause and no single treatment that's assumed to be at work. And we have studied what works and what doesn't and why it does or doesn't work so that knowledge can be used later when a different cause is discovered that could make a treatment that didn't work on something else show promise for this other cause.

Reading through the selections on upper cervical birth trauma, it looks like simply being born is a cause for not only everything that might be wrong, but also several things that are perfectly normal and resolve themselves naturally. . .but they all should be treated with chiropractic. Why? Are we really supposed to believe that SOOOO many things are wrong because we come out of a vagina and get smushed up along the way? Is this such a problem that everyone who wasn't born via C-section or stork delivery or cabbage patch harvest should be getting spinal manipulations because even if we don't think there's anything wrong, there MUST be, and chiropractic is the one thing that will cure it all?

Medicine recognizes that there is no single cause of all disease, and no single cure for all disease, and gets very specific about causes and treatments and risks of both treatment and non-treatment. It's the single cause and single treatment idea that makes chiropractic not medicine.

There is no single cause and single treatment issue going on here.

That is a straw man of your own construction.

In terms of ADHD, the minimum requirements for this injury to cause ADHD like symptoms would be:

early acquisition of the injury-- before mid to late childhood.

and a home environment that was not able to provide enough support to transition a very cranky toddler to a calm and settled adult.

However, there would probably be injury acquired at birth (as noted about 1/3 of all births in Biedermann's experience), and may very wel in most cases a genetically inherited risk of morphologically abnormal upper cervical vertebrae.

In addition some cases would also have genetic defects in neurotransmitter production or receptor density.

Biedermann's book is very specific about that.
He does make a very clear physiologically sound case as to why an instability at the occipitocervical junction should be expected to cause difficulties of the type that it does.

The chapters on associated sacroiliac joint and thoracic spine changes that occur as the toddlers posture tries to correct for the crookedness of the head, explain that in a very rational way, which is understandable to anyone with even a modest understanding of primitive reflexes.

Kunga Dorji
12-10-13, 09:28 PM
I'm not convinced that the stress is worse now than it was for our parents or
grandparents, although it is certainly different. For example, those that lived
during the Great Depression knew some very hard times.

I believe that "community" is different now. More people are living in cities
than in small towns, and much of the social activity is on the internet rather
than face-to-face, but it's still a way of being social as part of specialized
communities (those who share similar interests).

The face to face stuff is important- and much more powerful for creating and maintaining connectedness.

Look at the way we used to play- roaming about from house to house in a neighbourhood where we all knew each other and the parents were all comfortable with each other. We would be out and about for hours on oud bikes.

So much of childhood now is spent in front of video games, indoors, less physically active.

The rates of ADHD do appear to be increasing, and are highest in the US in more urbanised states (where these changes would be greatest) and in the very poor states- wheresocial problems would be expected to be greater.
Also some of those poor states are very big coalmining states and are having serious problems with groundwater contamination.

Physiologically, prolonged sitting in chairs is a stressor in itself.

meadd823
12-11-13, 03:41 AM
Now to address Amtram sources missed earlier today


Should Chiropractors Treat Children? (http://www.csicop.org/si/show/should_chiropractors_treat_children/)


A trend toward greater use of chiropractic by children has not gone unnoticed by the medical profession. An article in the January 2007 issue of Pediatrics (the official journal of the American Academy of Pediatrics) described chiropractic as the most common complementary and alternative medicine practice used by children, who made an estimated thirty million visits to U.S. chiropractors in 1997 (Vohra 2007). In 1998, children and adolescents constituted 11 percent of patient visits to chiropractors (Lee 2000).

Yeah I bet the medical profession has noticed the increase use of chiropractors but probably not in a good way.


There is no credible evidence to support the contention that subluxation correction will restore or maintain health or that such subluxations even exist (College 1996; Mirtz 2009). Chiropractic journals publish hundreds of subluxation-based studies supporting chiropractic treatment for children but only a few studies disputing such treatment. Most medical researchers feel that claims based on the chiropractic vertebral subluxation theory do not have sufficient basis to warrant investigation. But such claims should not go unchallenged, especially when they involve treatment of children

Okay lets do a dyslexic ADD translation here - they have not a freaking clue whether or not chiropractic care works - umm that would be the underline part I added

Because chiropractic care does not work well for for the main stream medical association lets advise against it - even though we have NOT a clue wtf we are talking about -That is exactly what it says all the fancy pants dancing around the bean stock does not fool me for a minute!!!!


Second source

Adverse Events Associated With Pediatric Spinal Manipulation: A Systematic Review (http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/119/1/e275.long)

CONCLUSIONS. Serious adverse events may be associated with pediatric spinal manipulation; neither causation nor incidence rates can be inferred from observational data. Conduct of a prospective population-based active surveillance study is required to properly assess the possibility of rare, yet serious, adverse events as a result of spinal manipulation on pediatric patients.

Spinal manipulation is common among children, and although serious adverse events have been identified, their true incidence remains unknown. Randomized, controlled trials will likely reveal common minor adverse events,

Okay more folks who have not a freaking clue . . . . . .

The other link was just a bunch of people bad mouth chiropractors it isn't even worth addressing

Lets take that medical adverse event thing one step further - antibiotics are a common thing for ear infections right okay let see what studies have to say about those

Antibiotics for otitis media with effusion in children. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22972136)


AUTHORS' CONCLUSIONS:

The results of our review do not support the routine use of antibiotics for children up to 18 years with otitis media with effusion. The largest effects of antibiotics were seen in children treated continuously for four weeks and three months. Even when clear and relevant benefits of antibiotics have been demonstrated, these must be balanced against the potential adverse effects when making treatment decisions. Immediate adverse effects of antibiotics are common and the emergence of bacterial resistance has been causally linked to the widespread use of antibiotics for common conditions such as otitis media.

Yet if I take a child to the doctor for an ear infection and get an antibiotic I am doing the right thing = evidence based medicine

It is because going to a doctor getting antibiotics for an ear infection is considered main stream medicine. BY all means don't look at the painfully obvious fact that adverse events are common with antibiotic therapy and over use of antibiotics has been "causally linked" to the creation of antibiotic resistant bacterial infections {sort of like copulation is causally linked to mammalian procreation } These "super bugs" not only put the infected person at risk but also carries the potential for effecting the folks that come into contact with the infected person. . . .

Please scare the crap out of every one about chiropractic manipulation despite the fact few studies have actually been done and of those half a** attempts to literally seek out adverse events have found that adverse events from chiropractic care are rare and limited to the individual. . . .

meadd823
12-11-13, 04:21 AM
meadd, chemotherapy does not promise results it cannot deliver. Patients are well-informed of the possible outcomes from very specific treatments that are based on very specific types of cancer, and oncologists are upfront with their patients about whether or not chemo will improve their possibility of survival and for how long. Patients will still decide to start chemo even when their doctors advise against it because their cancers are unlikely to respond enough to give them more than a few more months' survival.

It is medicine because in the cancers it treats, it treats them effectively. It's medicine because it's a number of different drugs that are used for cancers they are shown to destroy, not some generic chemical that's dispensed to everyone with "cancer." It's a chemical that is known to be the most effective for the specific type of cancer the patient has.

It's medicine because it does not promise to cure except in cases in which cure rates are almost a given - otherwise it promises percentage of survival after different time periods - 5 years, 10 years, 15 years - which is calculated based on type of cancer, stage at diagnosis, and years of followup on treated patients.

It's medicine because it explains the known risks to patients beforehand - not all chemo produces the same side effects, not all chemo is administered as aggressively as others, not all chemo requires the same length of treatment or number of courses of treatment. This is also because it is specific to the type and stage of cancer being treated.

It's medicine because it's not recommended when it's known that it will not be effective. If a patient has a cancer that is localized and benign, he won't be given chemo. If a patient has a cancer that can be better eradicated by radiation, he won't be given chemo.

It's medicine because there's no single cause and no single treatment that's assumed to be at work. And we have studied what works and what doesn't and why it does or doesn't work so that knowledge can be used later when a different cause is discovered that could make a treatment that didn't work on something else show promise for this other cause.

Reading through the selections on upper cervical birth trauma, it looks like simply being born is a cause for not only everything that might be wrong, but also several things that are perfectly normal and resolve themselves naturally. . .but they all should be treated with chiropractic. Why? Are we really supposed to believe that SOOOO many things are wrong because we come out of a vagina and get smushed up along the way? Is this such a problem that everyone who wasn't born via C-section or stork delivery or cabbage patch harvest should be getting spinal manipulations because even if we don't think there's anything wrong, there MUST be, and chiropractic is the one thing that will cure it all?

Medicine recognizes that there is no single cause of all disease, and no single cure for all disease, and gets very specific about causes and treatments and risks of both treatment and non-treatment. It's the single cause and single treatment idea that makes chiropractic not medicine.


Yeah never worked oncology have ya ?

Chemo regardless of the fancy mathematical dance is poison designed to kill rapid dividing cells.

Pts are given several types of chemo products and often go through chemo rounds until the chemo is in danger of killing them before the cancer

Almost all chemo is accompanied by radiation many cancer treatments also include surgery.

Pretending one actually lives longer which hasn't been my observation the quality of life is rarely discussed with the patient - what life you have is spent tired at best but the unlucky many will spend the time they have left with one end over a toilet and the other end over a trash can - Yeah if it or the cancer does not kill you, the "side effects" from chemo will make you want to die.

A couple of cancers do respond well to chemo therapy but most survival rate increases are based upon earlier detection of cancer with only a small percentage being due to improved chemo drugs themselves - Some survival rates are pretty damn low and then they have this thing called experimental chemo.


Oh did I mention that chemo therapy can cost over a $1000.00 a bag and I have not been in oncology in over a decade so I am sure it cost even more now.

No one forces any one to receive chiropractic care either - as far as making claims ever seen one of those commercials from Cancer Treatment centers of America? They sound pretty amazing. . . . . It should always be buyer beware regardless of what type of treatment one is seeking.


While I do not agree with all the claims made by the chiropractic industry I don;t believe all the prescription drug commercial claims either.

SB_UK
12-11-13, 04:28 AM
SB_UK,
First, my apologies as I am new to the forum and I interrupted your discussion earlier.
I have read some of your posts and it seems I have many similarities with you physically with my "aches and pains" so I appreciate your posts, but with your remarks above as well.
Society today is completely different from that of even 30 years ago. the toxicity and stressors to our bodies is at alarming levels.
I fear that we have lost that sense of community that was experienced in earlier generations. The expansion of the Western diet or Western lifestyle has seemed to doom us. Simpler ways are they the answer? who knows but I hope we are on the verge of real change.
Exactly!

SB_UK
12-11-13, 04:44 AM
I believe that strengthening local community and discovering the real way in which we are supposed to exist on earth. I mean come on, climate change, food being called poison, kids each more sugar than ever because they can’t get away from it, all I am saying in my normal long winded way is, no wonder we can’t figure anything out “for sure” so to say.


And exposure to all of the above and more is ever so stressful - in a bad way.

It's (trying to do something worthwhile in a flawed system) a bit like building a House of Cards on a windy day.
The House is blown over each time you connect a couple of cards.
And after a few attempts, you realise you've no cards left.

We're close to no cards left.

dvdnvwls
12-11-13, 04:46 AM
There is no single cause and single treatment issue going on here.

That is a straw man of your own construction.
I don't think you believe a single-cause single-treatment explanation. I believe that some or all of the people in one specific business venture whose trade name you mentioned, do have just such a belief (or at least market themselves that way), and that people involved in that particular business do not deserve your time and attention, and especially not access to your neck and your wallet.

SB_UK
12-11-13, 04:53 AM
While I do not agree with all the claims made by the chiropractic industry I don;t believe all the prescription drug commercial claims either.

:-) I only really believe that happy people living in a happy society will have few to no problems (eg Mount Athos).

No chiro, chemo or homeo praticery required.

Just everything that we know we're suited to from human epidemiology, physiology, psychology eg from this thread - not sitting for too long, good posture (Barliman), isometric exercises, yoga, stretching ... and so the list continues ... ...

The one machine I'd like to construct 'd be an isometric stretching machine - there's something wonderful about stretching and holding it - but some of us need a little help.
Though a partner will do :-)

Kunga Dorji
12-11-13, 08:35 AM
Now to address Amtram sources missed earlier today


Should Chiropractors Treat Children? (http://www.csicop.org/si/show/should_chiropractors_treat_children/)


A trend toward greater use of chiropractic by children has not gone unnoticed by the medical profession. An article in the January 2007 issue of Pediatrics (the official journal of the American Academy of Pediatrics) described chiropractic as the most common complementary and alternative medicine practice used by children, who made an estimated thirty million visits to U.S. chiropractors in 1997 (Vohra 2007). In 1998, children and adolescents constituted 11 percent of patient visits to chiropractors (Lee 2000).

Yeah I bet the medical profession has noticed the increase use of chiropractors but probably not in a good way.


I should say nothing here :eyebrow:


There is no credible evidence to support the contention that subluxation correction will restore or maintain health or that such subluxations even exist (College 1996; Mirtz 2009). Chiropractic journals publish hundreds of subluxation-based studies supporting chiropractic treatment for children but only a few studies disputing such treatment. Most medical researchers feel that claims based on the chiropractic vertebral subluxation theory do not have sufficient basis to warrant investigation. But such claims should not go unchallenged, especially when they involve treatment of children

Okay lets do a dyslexic ADD translation here - they have not a freaking clue whether or not chiropractic care works - umm that would be the underline part I added

But- most importantly- they are not prepared to dig deep enough to actually find out. The filtration process that structures what gets in to which prestigious journals is very subtle. However- if you do not get into those journals, you do not have valid evidence. Catch 22.


Because chiropractic care does not work well for for the main stream medical association lets advise against it - even though we have NOT a clue wtf we are talking about -That is exactly what it says all the fancy pants dancing around the bean stock does not fool me for a minute!!!!

You have about 1/2 of it right here meadd- the really tricky problem is that chiropractic operates on a different paradigm.

Let me give you an example of a different paradigm.
I am a practitioner of Mindfulness Integrated CBT. (google it).

Now this mode of treatment is designed to be delivered in a "trans diagnostic" model.

Sure- you can look at the text book that describes the theory and practice that underpins the method, but, when we are applying treatment, we do not even use "symptom scores" that fit into the DSM model at all.

The key evaluative tools we use are the Mindfulness Based Self Efficacy Score, and the "Short Progress Assessment" tool.
These do not reference DSM at al- they are looking at a different axis of evaluation: reactivity vs equanimity.
You can look in the textbook and see examples of management of DSM Axis 1 and Axis 2 diagnoses-- but the thrust of treatment is towards a different set of parameters than the ones used to structure DSM.

I am well aware that an analogous situation occurs with chiropractic.

Doctors look at it -- and it is a bit like the robot in Lost in Space.
They have a meltdown- because what is going on does not fit in any of their thought boxes, and even worse than that, the practitioners do not even fully accept the validity of the intellectual structure behind those thought boxes.

Medicine has a powerful "Trade Union". If you do not like risk- you should not mess with it. But power does not equal "validity".


Second source

Adverse Events Associated With Pediatric Spinal Manipulation: A Systematic Review (http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/119/1/e275.long)

CONCLUSIONS. Serious adverse events may be associated with pediatric spinal manipulation; neither causation nor incidence rates can be inferred from observational data. Conduct of a prospective population-based active surveillance study is required to properly assess the possibility of rare, yet serious, adverse events as a result of spinal manipulation on pediatric patients.

Spinal manipulation is common among children, and although serious adverse events have been identified, their true incidence remains unknown. Randomized, controlled trials will likely reveal common minor adverse events,

Okay more folks who have not a freaking clue . . . . . .

The other link was just a bunch of people bad mouth chiropractors it isn't even worth addressing


Nice.
I like you! A lot!!
"We do not have afreaking clue- but we feel entitled to repeat our prejudices anyhow".

Junk science.


Lets take that medical adverse event thing one step further - antibiotics are a common thing for ear infections right okay let see what studies have to say about those

Antibiotics for otitis media with effusion in children. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22972136)


AUTHORS' CONCLUSIONS:

The results of our review do not support the routine use of antibiotics for children up to 18 years with otitis media with effusion. The largest effects of antibiotics were seen in children treated continuously for four weeks and three months. Even when clear and relevant benefits of antibiotics have been demonstrated, these must be balanced against the potential adverse effects when making treatment decisions. Immediate adverse effects of antibiotics are common and the emergence of bacterial resistance has been causally linked to the widespread use of antibiotics for common conditions such as otitis media.

Yet if I take a child to the doctor for an ear infection and get an antibiotic I am doing the right thing = evidence based medicine

It is because going to a doctor getting antibiotics for an ear infection is considered main stream medicine. BY all means don't look at the painfully obvious fact that adverse events are common with antibiotic therapy and over use of antibiotics has been "causally linked" to the creation of antibiotic resistant bacterial infections {sort of like copulation is causally linked to mammalian procreation } These "super bugs" not only put the infected person at risk but also carries the potential for effecting the folks that come into contact with the infected person. . . .

Please scare the crap out of every one about chiropractic manipulation despite the fact few studies have actually been done and of those half a** attempts to literally seek out adverse events have found that adverse events from chiropractic care are rare and limited to the individual. . . .

Meadd- more studies have been done than you know- but they are ignored.

4mygirlsnme
12-11-13, 09:14 AM
Dr Bergman sounds impressive. I am sure that there will always be a number of different causative factors in any one case, and that to sort it out each individual ADHD patient will need to have each one assessed and managed to manage the overall syndrome.

I am beginning to believe more of the information I am getting from Dr. Bergman. Like I said, my beliefs remain in an objective state really on all models of treatment at this point. I think that the key for every patient is to educate themselves on their body and its processes. Nutrition MUST have a large role in this, it must, and change here and in lifestyle is often wise no matter what the condition.
I believe the human body is like our car. We need to decide if we are going to take care of it and educate ourselves on how it works or go to the garage and let the doctor, or chiropractor do it for you. You may just continue to ignore the problems. In the end, the cars longevity will prove whether or not the right choice was made.
The education I have received in the last 4 years is I think helping me to make a decision on what to do next with my own life but the information is so fractionated that it takes time to feel you have connected enough dots between the different models to make an un-informed/informed decision. Make sense?

Amtram
12-11-13, 11:55 AM
meadd, unfortunately, I've been way more involved in oncology in the last decade than I'd like to have been, enough to say that much of the information you posted is flawed, but this isn't a thread about cancer.

The other misconception is that there has not been a lot of research on chiropractic. There has been quite a bit, but scientists don't continue to investigate things over and over in hopes of a positive result when something has shown clear evidence of being ineffective. Funds and other resources are scarce. Gastroenterologists, for example, reacted to the claims of Chiropractors that chiropractic could treat several different digestive issues by conducting randomized, controlled studies on the effects of chiropractic on each condition until it became clear that the claims were baseless. . .then they went on to study things that actually showed promise for these conditions.

Testing and re-testing and testing again just because you didn't get the results you wanted is a waste, and scientists don't do that. They don't pick the conclusion and build a hypothesis and an experiment that will yield the desired conclusion - they take the conclusion that the experiment provides.

In the past, here, there's been a lot of discussion of top-down and bottom-up thinking. Looking at a condition and trying to figure out how your preferred treatment would work on it is top-down. That's what we're seeing in these messages of the efficacy of chiropractic. Scientists, while they may be researching a particular condition, work bottom-up. Take existing knowledge and evidence, see how they might connect with your observations, use that to create a hypothesis and design an experiment, and THEN come to a conclusion based upon the results - whether or not they were what you expected or wanted. And if the conclusion is null, accept that you were wrong and move on.

4mygirlsnme
12-11-13, 02:15 PM
And exposure to all of the above and more is ever so stressful - in a bad way.

It's (trying to do something worthwhile in a flawed system) a bit like building a House of Cards on a windy day.
The House is blown over each time you connect a couple of cards.
And after a few attempts, you realise you've no cards left.

We're close to no cards left.

I am in complete agreement here. Its is a scary thought and we as a society continue the status quo guaranteeing us to continue in this path of uncertainty. Look at the US and Western Diet issue. Dust bowl 30's? wasn't that caused by monocultures of wheat? hmm so those fields now have monocultures of corn and soy instead? do we never learn?
Technology such as anhydrous ammonia are not the answer there and the mindset of simply adding more to fix issues, why do we not look closer at the root cause?
there are people doing this and I do not want to leave them out of the mix. The problem I see is that everyone still looks at their science as the being the answer yet there are many facets left out each time which need to be measured to get the whole picture.
Answers? I have none, just many more questions :)

Kunga Dorji
12-11-13, 07:02 PM
I have three very serious problems with your comments here.

First and foremost is the totally invalid lumping of "all chiropractors" into a bag with the chiropractors who rub you up the wrong way.
There are multiple different technical streams within chiropractic and there is a good deal of research going on- despite very limited funds.
Now that chiropractic is within universities the systematisation of their research will progress much faster.
To lump all chiropractors in to the one category on the basis of the discriminators you are using makes about as much sense as trying to dress a golden retriever in a coat made for a chihuahua.

Secondly, in twenty six years in practice, I have become well aware that there are good and bad practitioners in every category. I have seen brilliant chiropractors and shocking physiotherapists. I have seen family physicians who just want a quick turn around and a big profit.
I have seen an orthopedic surgeon fracture a tibia while doing a knee replacement, because he hit it in too hard because he was in a temper about being handed the wrong tool.
I have seen a man have his leg amputated after another orthopedic surgeon accidentally tied off the artery at the back of the knee while doing a knee replacement.
I have seen a 33 year old man die in Coronary Care Unit when a whole bag of a lignocaine infusion ran through because the nurse was distracted by a cardiac arrest at the other end of the ward.
Lumping everyone into the same category based upon the trade group they belong to is not valid.

The biggest issue I have with what you are saying is this:


That people involved in that particular business do not deserve your time and attention, and especially not access to your neck and your wallet

So you are telling me, with my experience and qualifications that you know who I should be seeing?
Those are exactly your words.

Your comment is extraordinarily presumptuous. It is based upon the presumption that there is a special group of people who are right, that you are discriminating enough to have selected them out, and that you and they have the right to prevent me as a very well informed patient, from researching and making my own treatment choices.

That is what you said.

Thankyou, I have been trying to get you to be so explicit about this point for ages.

On the subject of value and effectiveness:
After years of pain (continuous neck, back and pelvic pain) I am finally pain free. This process started with the correction of my subluxed atlas in December 2009, and is now finishing with some work being done to stabilise my sacroiliac joint. I am dropping medications left right and centre and my expenses are reducing fast.
The all up cost of all these treatments has been about $4000 over 4 years.
My health breakdown last year cost a minimum of $30,000 by the time hospitalisations and govenrment rebates for medical consultations is accounted for.

My psychiatrist has agreed that applying the label bipolar to last years episode was utterly wrong- that the whole problem was an epiphenomenon
of bad mental functioning due to physical pain, and associated sleep deprivation and overarousal at a time of personal crisis.

That crisis was caused by the backlog of confusion in my marriage left by my
undiagnosed ADHD (now also seen as an epiphenomenon of the neck problem- my attention and emotions are now stable enough to qualify as a Buddhist meditation teacher).

Over the past 30 years I have walked away from a series of incompetent and arrogant psychiatrists and family physicians. I have spent a fortune on physiotherapy, antiinflammatories, mood stabilisers and sleeping medications. I have had many good but only transiently effective treatments from physiotherapists.
I have watched my patients go to chiropractors and come back with good results, and then tell me off for being closed minded.

I have personally attended 5 chiropractors and have an ongoing therapeutic relationship with two. The others are all excellent practitioners, but they are not geographically convenient.

I know a clinically effective practitioner when i encounter one.
I also know a courteous and interested practitioner when i see one (and most doctors are not either).
I also can do the maths to know value for money.

So, while I thank you for your concern, I do not accept the validity of your advice about what I should do with my neck and my wallet.

As I have said before- on this thread,I am posting validated, published scientific evidence.

I am posting it because it has helped me and because I would feel really guilty if I did not bring it to wider attention.

I am not insisting that anyone else do anything that they are not comfortable with, only presenting an alternative, and clarifying questions when they are asked.

In a free society, each mature adult must make his own decisions.

Now as far as the management of children goes, my 52 (almost) years of experience has taught me one thing-- that the parent (biological or adoptive) of a child is the person likeliest to have that child's best interests at heart. The parent will be the one who sees the most of that child and knows what is going on. Unless impaired or mentally incompetent a parent of a young child or infant is the best advocate for that child's interests.

Again- children in my practice who had a severe salicylate allergy-- Mum was onto the fact that something was up. Nobody in our practice knew anything much about what was then a quite obscure subject.

She was on my tail and chasing until we finally found enough information to deal with the problem. She had quite a few knockbacks from doctors who were very dismissive of her concerns though.

This all boils down to a question of informed consent and the patient as the person who has the right to choose and the primary responsibility for his own health.

Now, re your early comments about chiropractic being started by an unemployed grocer:
People do make career changes you know.
Secondly D.D. Palmer got impressive enough results to start a whole new discipline.
Bear in mind that many chiropractors were jailed for their insistence on the right of their patients to have access to them in the 1920's.
Please tell me what would cause an individual to go through that?
Maybe, just maybe- they did it out of their integrity?
I know just how painful and lonely a path that can be.

You can search this stuff up by looking for "Medical War against Chiropractic".

I am sure you would not like the "spin"- but the fact base is solid.

Finally- the old chiropractic term "Innate Intelligence of the Body" is archaic and not very informative.

I have explored the concepts behind that in my new post on psychoneuroimmunology:

http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154921

I would also suggest that you look at the book "Why Zebra's don't get Ulcers" which studies the neurobiology of stress.

We suffer tremendously because the power of self awareness can trap us in recursive thought loops that leave us forever worrying about the future or ruminating over the past.

In this sense we really do get in the way of our body's innate intelligence.
While managing this problem is not a chiropractor's main role- I have never been to a consultation where appropriate enquiries and advice about this aspect of health were not forthcoming.

dvdnvwls
12-11-13, 08:49 PM
:-) I only really believe that happy people living in a happy society will have few to no problems (eg Mount Athos).
Mount Athos is a men's retreat, not a society.

dvdnvwls
12-11-13, 09:19 PM
I did not intend to lump all chiropractors together. I intended to single out for ridicule one particular brand name which you mentioned. I am listening with great interest to the discussion of chiropractors in general because I think some of them are doing good work, but was shocked after reading the materials from and about the Atlas Profilax business that you would even consider them worth mentioning.

Kunga Dorji
12-11-13, 10:33 PM
I did not intend to lump all chiropractors together. I intended to single out for ridicule one particular brand name which you mentioned. I am listening with great interest to the discussion of chiropractors in general because I think some of them are doing good work, but was shocked after reading the materials from and about the Atlas Profilax business that you would even consider them worth mentioning.


But-- Atlas Profilax are not chiropractors at all.

I ended up having that treatment because the prejudice against chiropractors in Australian Medicine is so great that nobody knows that this issue at the joint between the skull and the atlas is a real problem

I will get back to Atlas Profilax- that might be better done in the next post.

However- first you need to understand why Atlas Profilax appeared as a viable option in the first place.

The communication between the professions here is terrible.
Chiropractors feel abused and attacked by doctors- and they have 20/20 vision about this problem
Doctors refuse to look at their evidence, or to read their journals, and then get involved in nasty, hair splitting fights.

There was a program on the ABC here recently (Catalyst) which was dreadfully reported.

The views of a bunch of old scientific bigots called "The Friends of Science In Medicine" were presented uncritically by a fawning reporter.
Nothing was questioned, as soon as one issue had been partway covered another issue was brought in and the tactic of "guilt by association" was used.

I inquired with my doctor and it turns out that the chiropractors interviewed for the program were furious that the lengthy interviews they had done for the program had been cut to pieces and quoted out of context.

I went through the entire transcript and wrote a list of all the clear thinking errors in the program and forwarded them to the chiropractor's association.



Now the program centred on an allegation that an infant had sustained a fracture of a neck bone as a result of chiropractic treatment. This allegation had been brought forwards by a Melbourne Paediatrician.

THe case was followed up on another station and then in another episode the truth came out:

The case had been evaluated by the Australian Health Practitioner's Health Regulation Authority and it was essentially found that the child's injury had occurred in an accident 2 days before, that on minimal pressure the chiropractor had elicited marked tenderness and he had appropriately called an ambulance.

What is worse - the X Ray was misinterpreted, there was no fracture, it was a congenital variant of normal anatomy which the child's father had.

The findings of the hearing were leaked to the press and if you went through the video on the station website you could freeze frame it and take screen shots of the AHPRA report.

I did :)

The paediatrician though still swears black and blue that he was right.
Given that he did it on TV he could probably be disciplined for unethical conduct.

So-- now you see why I went down the Atlas Profilax route in the first place.

Kunga Dorji
12-11-13, 11:12 PM
Now for the further details,
Once I had the treatment I was in a position to judge it safe in the hands of an experienced health practitioner. The one I saw is, but not all are. That is worth noting.

I was also now skilled enough to be able to spot the clinical signs as people walk down the street, and also aware that the treatment needed more follow up work to corrrect posture than Atlas Profilax mentioned.

I still had a great deal of trouble connecting with chiropractors who were skilled in the area though.

However both my then wife and i encountered many patients who would benefit form the treatment. We know of about 200 who had it when given the information, and about another 200 secondary referrals. There were many good results including improved focus, decreased anxiety, better sleep, resolution of headaches and frozen shoulder.

About a year after our medical defence spoke to us and advised that they would only indemnify us for patients we referred to AHPRA registered practitioners.

That decision was made on the basis of minimal information and the Medical Defence people were not open to any further information on it. However by that stage we had enough connections to chiropractors who came with good recommendations from our patients to be able to continue referring the problem to chiropractors.

This left me in a very difficult and stressful position for a long while and the tension and sheer amount of research I had to do left me getting exhausted when i still needed to be doing more postural work to correct my crooked thoracic spine-- so I ended up becoming quite ill and suffering about 18 months of dreadful chronic right shoulder pain and low back pain, runs of tachycardia and utter exhaustion.

I have now got this well under control and am expecting full resolution of all symptoms within the next 2 months. (The method- a combination of intense Vipassana type body scanning to refine my awareness of the problem, thorough research to extend my knowledge of anatomy, and appropriate Yoga exercises, with ongoing adjustments every time things got badly locked up). I intend to write up this method.

It is clear that the extent of my subluxation really damaged the ligaments on the right side, and it does slip a little if I sit in poor posture. When that happens I suffer severe disorientation and sensory overload- it turns on within a couple of minutes.
So- I experience this reversion to a universe of sensory overload and marked increase in heart rate maybe 10 times a week- and I know exactly how that evastates my attention. If it happens to my son he becomes nauseous and faint. Sometimes he can sleep crooked in bed and wake up as one of those ADDers who has great difficulty in activating in the morning.
However, I can fix these simply by doing a few stretches and a few minutes of relaxation. It has only taken about 2 years for me to learn how to do this.

Now on to the specifics of Atlas Profilax:

I am sure they overstate the frequency of the severe subluxations that cause the big problems (Mine was about 25 degrees and I have seen others that bad on CT scan.
However even a small rotation can cause problems as I described above).

I also am sure they do not include enough structured supervision as a routine part of after care. However- any patient I see goes into my recall system.

Published research has been an issue, but it has been in the pipeline for some time.

There have been demarcation disputes between chiropractors and Atlas Profilax and some chiropractors have treated the Atlas Profilax people as badly as they were treated by doctors.

However- legal proceedings in Germany delayed the publication of research that is now coming out.

The specific reason I linked to that Atlax Profilax LAtin America site was the good quality radiology on the site.

I have spent many hours trawling through websites and reviewing comments about experiences with all these treatments.

The short answer would be that I suspect that the method used by Atlas Profilax may be the most effective one for the big subluxations (can't prove this yet- I would like to sit in on an Atlas Orthogonal Chiropractor and watch that being done. I have now found one locally so will call him up.

However, Chiropractors are much more comprehensively trained and a good one is a real gift. So that is the way I go now.

However,
having said this, there are new groups of practitioners springing up all over this place as awareness spreads, and I find it useful and instructive to link to these sites when they have good quality information that helps us all understand what is going on.

That makes me a radical in terms of the Medical status quo, however I repeat my early assertion that providing information that helps people make up their own minds is an appropriate thing to do.

That information is not specific medical advice, and should not be taken as such.
In the end we are all patients and we all have the right to access as much information as we need to make our own informed decisions.

This means that traditional means of controlling information flow that have dominated our society have to be recognised as regressive and abandoned.

It is worth reading the Essay "Medical Licensure" by the economist Milton Friedman on this subject.

He explores all the regressive features of strict state controlled medical licensure and the destructive effects in terms of stifling of a free market and stifling of innovation that have been shown to happen again and again.

Certainly there have to be rules of conduct, accountability and penalties for unethical or criminal behavior, but it is arguable that they could be handled by common law.

http://books.cat-v.org/economics/capitalism-and-freedom/chapter_09

SB_UK
12-12-13, 10:48 AM
"To set up what you like against what you dislike
is the disease of the mind".
Seng-T'san
(The Third Patriarch of Zen)

The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil

[where there is no 'good' and their is no 'evil' - but there is escape from perception of reality in dualities - and in that place, the disease of mind is overcome]

Kunga Dorji
12-12-13, 11:45 AM
The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil

[where there is no 'good' and their is no 'evil' - but there is escape from perception of reality in dualities - and in that place, the disease of mind is overcome]


ONLY an ADDer could fluidly make that huge, but accurate leap.

It is the combination of an overstocked mind whose attention jumps round like a ball in a pinball machine!

Kunga Dorji
12-12-13, 12:09 PM
I did not intend to lump all chiropractors together. I intended to single out for ridicule one particular brand name which you mentioned. I am listening with great interest to the discussion of chiropractors in general because I think some of them are doing good work, but was shocked after reading the materials from and about the Atlas Profilax business that you would even consider them worth mentioning.


I have just re- looked at this:
In fact I was addressing Amtram but wrongly linked to your post.
Please accept my apologies- some difficult personal issues are playing on my mind and messing with my sleep (the"showdown end" of a divorce).

meadd823
12-16-13, 03:37 AM
meadd, unfortunately, I've been way more involved in oncology in the last decade than I'd like to have been, enough to say that much of the information you posted is flawed, but this isn't a thread about cancer.

I did not ask if you were "involved" in oncology but I asked if you worked as a professional in the field - It is NOT the same as being personally involved I know I have been both professionally and personally involved in it. As a professional you see what those receiving the care do not.

I have no flaws in my perceptions but then again who does according to their own world view. . . . I posted understatements!!!!

Chemo Brain (http://www.cancer.org/treatment/treatmentsandsideeffects/physicalsideeffects/chemotherapyeffects/chemo-brain)

Pictures of the brain have shown lower resting brain activity in breast cancer survivors treated with chemo when compared with those who were not treated with chemo. These changes were still seen on scans of some women 5 to 10 years after treatment stopped. And during memory testing, these women had to call on and use larger areas of their brains than women who had not gotten chemo.

The other misconception is that there has not been a lot of research on chiropractic. There has been quite a bit, but scientists don't continue to investigate things over and over in hopes of a positive result when something has shown clear evidence of being ineffective. Funds and other resources are scarce. Gastroenterologists, for example, reacted to the claims of Chiropractors that chiropractic could treat several different digestive issues by conducting randomized, controlled studies on the effects of chiropractic on each condition until it became clear that the claims were baseless. . .then they went on to study things that actually showed promise for these conditions.


Actually the meta analysis provided evidence that results of chiropractic treatments taken as a whole were inconclusive which isn't the same as being ineffective.

Testing and re-testing and testing again just because you didn't get the results you wanted is a waste, and scientists don't do that. They don't pick the conclusion and build a hypothesis and an experiment that will yield the desired conclusion - they take the conclusion that the experiment provides.

Oh then what is all this about empirical evidence requiring multiple repeaters of studies being by independent groups as a means of being valid - Scientific community spend a hell of a lot of time testing and retesting stuff that isn't valuable for much of any thing really.

In the past, here, there's been a lot of discussion of top-down and bottom-up thinking. Looking at a condition and trying to figure out how your preferred treatment would work on it is top-down. That's what we're seeing in these messages of the efficacy of chiropractic. Scientists, while they may be researching a particular condition, work bottom-up. Take existing knowledge and evidence, see how they might connect with your observations, use that to create a hypothesis and design an experiment, and THEN come to a conclusion based upon the results - whether or not they were what you expected or wanted. And if the conclusion is null, accept that you were wrong and move on.


All this writing above is in direct opposition to previous claims about the need to repeat clinical studies in order for the conclusions to be valid - This only applies when it is convenient to main stream medical proponents refuting what ever brand of treatment diversity that is being opposed at any given time?


Like I said I do not believe every thing chiropractors claim but I do feel chiropractic treatments are a valid form of treatment for several conditions

With regard to ADHD if resources are available it may be worth exploring especially for those whom medical approaches have proven ineffective or those who are opposed to medical treatments for personal moral reasons.

When it comes to infants I would feel better allowing mild spinal manipulation than giving them stimulants. . . We make infants out to be such fragile beings when the trip down the birth canal is any thing but a gentle one.

The fact that a minor misalignment of the spine is a plausible possibility given that the infant is squeezed {read forcibly crammed} into a tightly fitting tunnel and goes kurplop where ever the end of the birth canal happens to be. . . . some babies are dragged out with forceps although this method has fallen out of favor. . ..

Mild manipulation of the spine is probably not going to to hurt the baby any more than being born does.

ginniebean
12-16-13, 04:38 AM
When did infants start getting stimulants?

For my 2 cents. I think any non essential medical intervention in infancy is simply not worth the risk. One dead baby is one dead baby too many.

meadd823
12-16-13, 04:51 AM
Medical ADHD treatment is stimulants. . . the thread is about causes of ADHD like symptoms in early childhood. . . .

Babies die during the birthing process but we some how mange to over look this and continue procreating any way.

Amtram
12-16-13, 12:38 PM
You repeat studies with positive results to make sure they were conducted correctly, the methodology was not flawed, and that the outcome is repeatable. Negative results rarely need repeated testing, especially if the outcome was considered unlikely based on prior knowledge and evidence in the first place.

"Inconclusive" is used a lot by researchers who really want a result that they didn't get. If you look at a large number of studies, including those published by low-IF journals, you'll see far too many cases of null and negative results being called "inconclusive," with a comment from the authors that "further study is needed." Yet, when you look at the methodology and the results, it looks pretty darned conclusive, in that it indicates further study would be pointless.

The studies that have been done on chiropractic treatments on infants have been pretty conclusive in that they don't help with colic (which is what they're primarily promoted to treat.) Epidemiological evidence shows that infants who are given chiropractic suffer injury and death from spinal manipulation - we're not talking about a single case "blown up by the media," but hundreds.

Ergo, spinal manipulation should not be done on infants because it does not treat what it claims to treat, and carries a high risk in addition to not treating what it claims to treat. Every medical treatment is evaluated based on risk vs. benefit. If benefit is nonexistent, then any risk at all makes it an unacceptable treatment.

The International Chiropractic Association, though, wants to continue infant manipulation because its stated goal is to perform research that proves the benefit of chiropractic spinal manipulation. Since that isn't ethically practical or legal, the way to do it is to continue to convince parents to bring their infants in for manipulation and see what happens. That's not research.

ginniebean
12-16-13, 07:39 PM
Medical ADHD treatment is stimulants. . . the thread is about causes of ADHD like symptoms in early childhood. . . .

Babies die during the birthing process but we some how mange to over look this and continue procreating any way.



Infants are not given stimulants.

And giving birth, yes, it's risky. If that's your criteria for relevance everything is permissable.

All alternatives are sacred...
All alternatives are sacred...
All alternatives are sacred...


Excuse me for stepping on this most holy of ground with an impertinent opinion.

Amtram
12-16-13, 08:46 PM
You can't really think about this too much, because it essentially means that every human being on the planet has needed chiropractic for thousands and thousands of years before it was invented.

sarahsweets
12-17-13, 05:38 AM
The thing that freaks me out about chiropractic care and babies is how soft and pliable their skeletal systems are. Like the soft spot on their head, and how easy it is for a baby to suffer some kind of trauma for seemingly mild or gentle movements. I am not saying babies are fragile glass dolls, but they arent developed much yet so wouldnt it make sense that this is a treatment best reserved for when they are older, if at all?

Kunga Dorji
12-17-13, 09:49 AM
When did infants start getting stimulants?

For my 2 cents. I think any non essential medical intervention in infancy is simply not worth the risk. One dead baby is one dead baby too many.

That is your opinion: based on how much review of the available material?

Just ask me for the full catalogue of data you need to construct a reality based list of outstanding problems:
Ask me for the data- but prepare to for being overwhelmed
In 6 months you may be able to make a qualified critique.
It has taken me 5 years to assemble the data I have been presenting here.It will take more than that to refute the mian ideas.

I am sure this sounds awfully mean and unkind- but in this case, you are voicing an opinion without doing due diligence first.
Ask me- I can give you fomrally very single piece of data that you need to test to pass the "due diligence" test.

Or is it more important to express an opinion without having done the work required to earn the right to opine?

Amtram
12-17-13, 11:27 AM
By the same token, it would be unreasonable to assert that we are not descended from aliens without having done thorough research on all the books ever written about alien abductions and attended a year's worth of meetings of the Raelian society.

Instead, if one learns that the premises themselves lack factual support, or directly contradict well-supported and thoroughly researched evidence, it is reasonable to conclude that one does not have to look any further to assume that further claims based upon those premises are also false.

There is no evidence that chiropractic subluxations exist (they are not like orthopedic subluxations, which can be seen on x-rays or even detected by palpation.) There is no evidence that spinal manipulation can alter the brain (beyond changes that would normally take place if pain is relieved, which have no relevance in neurological conditions.)

Further, the fact that chiropractic colleges teach that spinal manipulation can cure communicable diseases, autoimmune disorders, cancer, and even alter DNA makes chiropractic even less credible.

On the other hand, there is ample evidence that chiropractic was made up by an opportunist who never studied medicine and began making claims for chiropractic before he had even begun practicing it. (In fact, he went to jail for practicing medicine without a license.) There is ample evidence that when chiropractic claims are tested under rigorous conditions (a single condition studied, randomized, double-blind, with control arms and enough participants to show statistical significance) there is no evidence of efficacy.

Chiropractic has not been shown to cure anything, and it's been around long enough that if it could, it would have. Spending more time reading anecdotes by practitioners isn't necessary.

ginniebean
12-17-13, 11:38 AM
I stated my opinion yes. I am of the opinion that one dead baby is one dead baby too many. I have done enough research to know that infants have died from this procedure,


In all my time on this forum I have not wavered on the safety of children and I'm not likely to start now. I don't care what adults choose to do that's their perogative. If your literature can explain why such a risky procedure for colic is necessary such that the risks of colic are greater than the risk of this procedure then by all means.


My opinion was confined to infants, as far as I know colic is unpleasant but not lethal.

Lunacie
12-17-13, 12:10 PM
That is your opinion: based on how much review of the available material?

Just ask me for the full catalogue of data you need to construct a reality based list of outstanding problems:
Ask me for the data- but prepare to for being overwhelmed
In 6 months you may be able to make a qualified critique.
It has taken me 5 years to assemble the data I have been presenting here.It will take more than that to refute the mian ideas.

I am sure this sounds awfully mean and unkind- but in this case, you are voicing an opinion without doing due diligence first.
Ask me- I can give you fomrally very single piece of data that you need to test to pass the "due diligence" test.

Or is it more important to express an opinion without having done the work required to earn the right to opine?

The definition of opinion includes these:

1. a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.

2. a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.

3. the formal expression of a professional judgment: to ask for a second medical opinion.

Considering the fact that this is not a forum for professionals in the medical
field (or any other), then we can dispense with definition #3, leaving Ginnie's
opinion as not needing to have to "earn the right" to express her thoughts. :doh:

Dizfriz
12-17-13, 12:58 PM
Mmmm, I think I need to comment on this.

I believe this to be an open forum, if I am wrong could someone on staff correct me.

As an open forum, at least in my mind, no one has to earn the right to express an opinion. One can be challenged to back up that opinion and that is part of the give and take here but they have the full right to express it within the rules.

The free back forth of ideas is, at least to my mind, one of the things that makes the forum interesting and worthwhile.

Just my opinion but a strongly held one.

Dizfriz

Kunga Dorji
12-18-13, 02:29 AM
Mmmm, I think I need to comment on this.

I believe this to be an open forum, if I am wrong could someone on staff correct me.

As an open forum, at least in my mind, no one has to earn the right to express an opinion. One can be challenged to back up that opinion and that is part of the give and take here but they have the full right to express it within the rules.

The free back forth of ideas is, at least to my mind, one of the things that makes the forum interesting and worthwhile.

Just my opinion but a strongly held one.

Dizfriz

I actually agree on this point but it is galling to present a massive source of evidence from allopathic doctors and have the evidence criticised by reference to chiropractors.

Now, I know perfectly well that there is a very high level of professional training and commitment to structured presentation of evidence within chiropractic within Australia, and I see chiropractors myself, and I am impressed with their professional standards, where many doctors I know have been found wanting-- but that is not relevant.

What is happening here is that the material I am presenting is being misrepresented by conflating with with chiropractic. That is regrettable, and it reflects very poorly on those running that line of argument. At no point have any of the critics of what is presented here made enough reference to the material presented to indicate that they have even understood it, and that there are also differences between clinical descriptions of syndromes and diseases, or that the definitions of syndrome depend on the primary focus of interest of the practitioners involved and the intellectual models they use.

I referred in another thread to the most highly regarded book on General Practice in Australia. (General Practice, by Prof John Murtagh).
Much of the examination for the college of General Practitioners in Australia is based on his book and his approach.
He actually practiced manipulative medicine, and in the past has treated both myself, my father, my grandfather and my ex wife.
Dig into the chapter on neck pain and the first comment is that most neck pain is caused by "ideopathic facet joint dysfunction and that neck pain commonly causes dizziness".

Heiner Biedermann's material expands upon that issue of ideopathic neck pain, provides an analysis of why the dizziness should be linked to working memory problems and presents extensive clinical data- which has been published in peer reviewed journals, to support that information.

Yes, people do do things and analyse information in a different way, using different criteria in Central Europe, in the former USSR, and in China, but that does not challenge the validity of those means of analysis, when they are supported by peer reviewed work.

That specifically addresses an early question on "are KISS and KIDD" syndromes accepted as valid syndromes?
The answers there are
1) accepted as valid by whom, and on what criteria,?
2) If they are not accepted as valid in the USA for instance- who ae the practitioners who do not accept them, and are those practitioners sufficiently well educated to express an opinion that should carry any weight in a serious scientific discussion?

I can guarantee that the answer to part 2 of question2 will be no, because I have heard them display their ignorance when they criticise chiropractic.
This is an issue all the time in medicine:
"I am not aware of the evidence, my professional college has not brought this knowledge to my awareness, therefore the evidence does not exist".

The trouble is that those ill informed opinions by professionals who refuse to do the work to inform themselves sway consumers from treatments that have a track record of being much safer than allopathic medical treatments, and which continue to impress the patients who choose to use them.

My experience is that I ws prevented from accessing useful complementary and alternative treatments because I was foolish enough to believe senior practitioners in Australia who expressed their biased and ill researched opinions in an authoritative manner. I have paid a very high price for my gullibility.

However-- you are right that the rules for debate on an open forum should be more loose than those for academic debate.

dvdnvwls
12-18-13, 02:47 AM
Attempting to change the alignment of the atlas bone by some form of external manipulation is chiropractic. That is about as universally-correct and un-controversial a statement as a person could make.

Claiming "our method of changing the alignment isn't chiropractic" is nonsense, because any reasonable definition of chiropractic does include what's being done here. The non-chiropractic claim is analogous to someone claiming "Because I use subtly-curved tools instead of straight ones, my work on people's teeth isn't dentistry".

meadd823
12-18-13, 03:33 AM
Infants are not given stimulants.

And giving birth, yes, it's risky. If that's your criteria for relevance everything is permissable.

All alternatives are sacred...
All alternatives are sacred...
All alternatives are sacred...


Excuse me for stepping on this most holy of ground with an impertinent opinion.

Your argument was regarding risk of the procedure I responded with the point that risk is involved with every thing starting with birth. My logic is that babies are pretty resilient beings to physical manipulation more so than adults and offered natural birth as a line of logic.


No one seemed to have a problem with entering into Kunga Doriji's thread and attempting to shred his perceptions before he was even finished typing them out Some how this becomes a problem when he replies harshly because the work itself is not being acknowledged????

I read the response to my post and wondered . . ..

Soooooo where is the beef?
Seriously this rebuttal is beneath your intellect gennie. We have debated before so I know you are able to do so much better.

Opinions yeah as if those are any way, form or fashion sacred - We have ADHD nothing is sacred. Our point of view is all we are giving here along with some reasoning behind why we think as we do. We are all peers exchanging ideas and hashing out various perceptions.

For every opinion there is likely to be an opposing opinion, tis nature of discussion and should be expected as a sign of a well balanced group but by all means disagree with the material not the one presenting it .

Civility is expected. This does apply to all parties.

Please do stop and consider how much work has gone into this presentation regardless of whether or not you personally agree for in all honestly you do not have a clue as to what I truly agree or disagree but at the very least Kunji's effort deserves my support. I offer it out of respect for his efforts. I do not shun some thing because it falls out side my familiar zone.

Now what I think is frustrating Kunga is that forever now there has been a demand for scientific evidence and clinical research to back up some of his personal and professional perspective because they tend toward the unorthodox. Now he has gone through a great deal of trouble to offer just such material as requested Not only has said same group of individuals whom requested the information to begin with failed to even so much as acknowledge the huge amount of work he has done at your request but have not shown the slightest sign of actually reading any thing he has presented before disagreeing.

I know I would be a lot more impressed if some one would take the time to critique the facts presented as opposed to simply making vague accusations which do not have any baring on the material itself. I have gone so far as to subjecting myself to Russ Barkley work before disagreeing with it so the least you can do is the same for "alternative therapies"

I don't give a hang if the material was written by chiropractics or mousketeers spare me the semantics it is a sign you are running low on valid rebuttals and are resorting to nonintellectual responses. At the every least acknowledge the man's effort in the same manner you would like your efforts to be acknowledged.

Defritz you of all people should know how much work goes into such lengthy presentations, you have made some sizable contributions yourself as has McTavish -

Treat others as you would like to be treated - Defritz you were showered with praise for your work. How would you like to receive the same treatment as Kundji has for his work.


Mctavish did received some opposition to his but nothing like this and if I remember right members intervened on his behalf, some of us were the same members that are defending Kundji's .:rolleyes:

I remember both of you having moments of frustration and lashed out when challenged by folks who could not be bothered to read your work.


Has it not been painfully obvious that Kundji is just as dedicated to his point of view as you are to yours. Please do realize I speak not as a member of staff but as a peer in regards to how humans treat other humans devoted to a cause. If one can not agree with the cause of devotion at the very least find common ground in the devotion itself.

Kundji please remember no one ever kicks a dead dog . . . . so take all the opposition as a good sign despite the tendency to become discouraged with a wall of opposition. Frustration is understandable but lashing out will not change any ones point of view. You have gone through a great deal of trouble although it seems as if the nay sayers out number those who support you there are those of us who support your efforts and respect you as a person of genuine compassion and caring.

ginniebean
12-18-13, 04:57 AM
Your argument was regarding risk of the procedure I responded with the point that risk is involved with every thing starting with birth. My logic is that babies are pretty resilient beings to physical manipulation more so than adults and offered natural birth as a line of logic.


No one seemed to have a problem with entering into Kunga Doriji's thread and attempting to shred his perceptions before he was even finished typing them out Some how this becomes a problem when I intervene and debate from his perception.

Before I posted I read all of the links provided, then I looked up infant neck manipulation and found two studies. In one of them at least one infant died. In one of those studies something like over 20% of the infants experienced breathing difficulties immediately following the procedure.

That alarmed me! It still does.



To me this is an intellectual debate so I do not take disagreement personally. I entered the thread expecting opposition.

Soooooo where is the beef?
Seriously this rebuttal is beneath your intellect. We have debated before so I know you are able to do so much better.

I'm asking myself the same thing. Why am I getting jumped on over having what I think are very real concerns? I spend a fair amount of time in the parenting section. What continues to disturb me is parents who have next to no information about adhd except that it's treated by stimulants. They don't know that their child can't just 'stop doing these annoying things'. I listen and try and keep my trap shut to be 'supportive' while parents will try ANYthing in order to avoid stimulants because they are the big bad boogieman.

I don't even care if parents try or don't try stimulants but all of these alternative treatments are being tried mostly with no supervision and with no real understanding of what the child is actually struggling with. I feel sorry for the kids who are put on deprivation diets, who are the subjects of parental anger and frustration, who are subjected to all manner of 'treatments' that are unlikely to work.

Feeling sorry for a child in these circumstances, well I just can't help it. When I read about children dying that goes beyond feeling sorry. That frightens me, and I felt that I must say something. It scares the crap out of me that parents will think hey, this is better than stimulants better try this too. All of the information needs to be given.

Kunga says he's benefited from atlas manipulation, I have no problem with that because that's his choice. Children aren't making these choices they're having them forced upon them well meaning or not.



Opinions yeah as if those are any way, form or fashion sacred - We have ADHD nothing is sacred. Our point of view is allare giving here along with some reasoning behind why we think as we do. We are all peers exchanging ideas and hashing out various perceptions.

For every opinion there is likely to be an opposing opinion, tis nature of discussion and should be expected as a sign of a well balanced group.

Civility is however expected. This does apply to all parties

I do try very hard to be civil and I may fail and often unintentionally. I know I'm intense and find my words are often perceived much harsher than my intent and honestly I do edit, but this is often not enough.



Now what I think is frustrating Kunga is that for ever now there has been a demand for scientific evidence and clinical research to back up some of his personal and professional a bet unorthodox perceptions Now he has gone through a great deal of trouble to offer just such material as requested not only has said same group of individual failed to even so much as acknowledge the huge amount of work he has done but have not shown the slightest sign of actually reading any thing he has presented before disagreeing.

I am not part of a group except I keep being told I am. As I said earlier, I am always protective when it comes to children, I have been over and over on this forum. In fact, if I ever stop being so you better check my temperature because clearly I'll be suffering from some fever caused delirium. I didn't object to any of the literature because I don't know enough. I was a bit disappointed actually that the danger wasn't mentioned in the links when it came to infants had it been I'd not have bothered to post at all.




I know I would be a lot more impressed if some one would take the time to critique the facts presented as opposed to simply making vague accusations which do not have any baring on the material itself. I have gone so as to subjecting myself to Russ Barkley work before disagreeing with it so the least you can do is the same for "alternative therapies"


Instead of derailing the thread I took my conversation to pm with KD. We've had a very pleasant conversation. I should have perhaps posted the studies because yeah I can see how it could look like I was making vague accusations. Who'd have thought, me .... vague.




I don't give a hang if the material was written by chiropractics or mousketeers spare me teh sementaic it is a sign you are running low on vaild rebulatles and are resorting to nonintellectual responses. At the every least acknowledge the man's effort in the same manner you would like your efforts to be acknowledged.

I don't think I said anything about chiropractors. I realise that the forum is going thru a phase (and frankly its been going on a really long time now) where alternatives pop up like flying monkeys. I admit to being frustrated and feeling drowned in all these alternatives some quite lunatic even. I'm also realising that my frustration may be jaundicing my view and trying to make an effort to be a little more humble in my approach. (you know the song) BUT, there's a line here.. and it's not one I can cross. harm to an infant .. I can't consider this in a dispassionate manner. Can't do it, not won't. It's impossible.

meadd823
12-18-13, 05:25 AM
Instead of derailing the thread I took my conversation to pm with KD. We've had a very pleasant conversation. I should have perhaps posted the studies because yeah I can see how it could look like I was making vague accusations. Who'd have thought, me .... vague.

So then you understand my wtf then - yeah you vague I KNOW you better than that you usually are very challenging academically as well as logically.

I understand your concern with regards to children but children die from evidence based medicine as well - More children die from antibiotic usage then of chiropractic manipulation yet some folks feed their children antibiotics like candy - In many ways I understand your frustration with parents but for the opposite reason - - I worked in doctors offices and people bring in their kids and get mad at the doctor because he refuse to prescribe them an antibiotic for a freaking virus - Heck they paid the doc so the doc should write a script for what the parent think will help never mind the fact that the more antibiotics a child is given the more likely he / she is likely to develop antibodies that will produce adverse events, create super bugs and that virus don;t respond to antibiotics any way.

Just try to explain the problems of over use of antibiotics to them and get called every thing BUT a professional - So I guess when I read about the upset of one child dying due to manipulation of the neck I tend to appear callous probably because I know that a hell of a lot more of them die from over use of what is considered ordinary medicine like antibiotics.

I think those who tend toward alternative point of view feel the same over whelm as you do - They do not feel they can post any thing without getting swarmed upon - I am not talking about fly by night members but regulars who have been here a long time.

If we can not agree as to the right approaches fine but we should by all means respect each other as being devoted to the same cause of offering information and treatment considerations according to our individual knowledge

You are right some parents would almost rather shoot their children than give them medications and they simply are not going to give their kids medications no matter what any of us says so it is good to have those like Kunga to offer information regarding alternatives The basic choice for those dead set against medications is choosing an alternative therapy blind folded or choosing one with both eyes open.

Now you know the rest of the story - well from my point of view any way :D

Never a need to apologize for caring . . . . I just want folks to consider each other when we are discussing options in that none of us has cornered the market on the one and only universal right answer for every one with ADD -I find our discussion here ironic in that I take ADHD medications for my ADD and if I remember right you do not because of a bad reaction - Who could tell by our posting here LOL!!!!

ginniebean
12-18-13, 05:34 AM
I do understand now. Thanks for pointing it out. for me it wasn't missing until I realised it was.

oops! :)

dvdnvwls
12-18-13, 05:55 AM
However-- you are right that the rules for debate on an open forum should be more loose than those for academic debate.
I don't think this relates to loose rules at all. I think it has more to do with not holding anyone's experience or opinion above criticism. Everyone entitled to his own opinion, AND everyone else entitled to criticize. If criticism is discouraged, then the opinions that do get expressed decline in value correspondingly. (In other words, tighter rules that more-effectively prohibit respect for the authority of the speaker, not looser rules that permit challenges.)

Edited to clarify: I respect you as a person and hope that we all respect each other in that way. My point is that in a scientific discussion it isn't right to respect anyone's authority. That may sound like a "fine line" but it isn't.

Lunacie
12-18-13, 11:52 AM
I don't think this relates to loose rules at all. I think it has more to do with not holding anyone's experience or opinion above criticism. Everyone entitled to his own opinion, AND everyone else entitled to criticize. If criticism is discouraged, then the opinions that do get expressed decline in value correspondingly. (In other words, tighter rules that more-effectively prohibit respect for the authority of the speaker, not looser rules that permit challenges.)

Edited to clarify: I respect you as a person and hope that we all respect each other in that way. My point is that in a scientific discussion it isn't right to respect anyone's authority. That may sound like a "fine line" but it isn't.

Spot on dvd!

I hate having my opinion criticized, and I don't like the way it makes me feel.
But I do like that it makes me think ... and I may learn why I was mistaken/wrong,
or I may learn more about why I am right.

Either way I tend to learn, and that's a good thing, eh?

dvdnvwls
12-18-13, 01:35 PM
There is a way in which all of science hinges on (or even just IS) "Leave no stone un-turned, criticize everything". Human nature includes that we tend to become "fans" of the things we like, and in that regard, finding the truth requires each one of us to be willing to go against our own human nature and calmly watch our favourites be subjected to the same ruthless process as every other bit of scientific information undergoes.

Lunacie
12-18-13, 02:35 PM
Well ... sometimes not so calmly, but hopefully in time we get there.

dvdnvwls
12-18-13, 03:10 PM
:) Good point.

Another more-succinct way to really say the same thing:

Data does not equal evidence.

Kunga Dorji
12-18-13, 03:33 PM
:) Good point.

Another more-succinct way to really say the same thing:

Data does not equal evidence.

However, while I have not posted the individual papers fro m peer reviewed juounals, what I have posted is a comprehensive reference that is entirely based upon that sort of evidence.

Additionally there is immense confusion between absence of evidence and evidence of absence.

So- what is posted in this thread is a comprehensive summary of one source of the available evidence, with enough direction for anyone who wants the evidence to find it themselves.

Actually doing this much has been a massive job- and if others are interest, and think this is of interest or value, then they know where to find the resource and how to access the root papers.

Dizfriz
12-18-13, 06:24 PM
Meadd:

Defritz you of all people should know how much work goes into such lengthy presentations, you have made some sizable contributions yourself as has McTavish -

Treat others as you would like to be treated - Defritz you were showered with praise for your work. How would you like to receive the same treatment as Kundji has for his work.


Mctavish did received some opposition to his but nothing like this and if I remember right members intervened on his behalf, some of us were the same members that are defending Kundji's .

I remember both of you having moments of frustration and lashed out when challenged by folks who could not be bothered to read your work.


Has it not been painfully obvious that Kundji is just as dedicated to his point of view as you are to yours. Please do realize I speak not as a member of staff but as a peer in regards to how humans treat other humans devoted to a cause. If one can not agree with the cause of devotion at the very least find common ground in the devotion itself. Meadd, I don't have a clue of what you are chastising me for. I don't have the time right now to get into his thesis so the only post I have made is one of someone having to earn the right to comment on the forum.

If you want take me to task, that is OK but do it for something I did or said and not for something I have neither done or said on the subject.


Yours,

Dizfriz AKA Defriz

dvdnvwls
12-18-13, 10:58 PM
However, while I have not posted the individual papers fro m peer reviewed juounals, what I have posted is a comprehensive reference that is entirely based upon that sort of evidence.

Additionally there is immense confusion between absence of evidence and evidence of absence.

So- what is posted in this thread is a comprehensive summary of one source of the available evidence, with enough direction for anyone who wants the evidence to find it themselves.

Actually doing this much has been a massive job- and if others are interest, and think this is of interest or value, then they know where to find the resource and how to access the root papers.
Two sets of evidence:

1. Birth trauma to the cervical vertebrae likely to be an important and often-overlooked problem - I'm watching and listening with great interest, and wondering about myself and my history.

2. One particular business venture, run by a shadowy figure from Switzerland, purporting to repair the effects of the aforementioned trauma with a single magical-sounding treatment, several of whose practitioners don't have medical qualifications of any kind, who state that they don't attempt to diagnose a problem before acting, and who say that their treatment lasts for life - I'm calling "BS" on that one.

I think you've been played in a "bait-and-switch" regarding the evidence for one particular proprietary procedure, and are accidentally attempting to pass that on to others.

Kunga Dorji
12-19-13, 09:26 PM
Two sets of evidence:


2. One particular business venture, run by a shadowy figure from Switzerland, purporting to repair the effects of the aforementioned trauma with a single magical-sounding treatment, several of whose practitioners don't have medical qualifications of any kind, who state that they don't attempt to diagnose a problem before acting, and who say that their treatment lasts for life - I'm calling "BS" on that one.

I think you've been played in a "bait-and-switch" regarding the evidence for one particular proprietary procedure, and are accidentally attempting to pass that on to others.

Now on this subject- that technique was the first one I came across, and I had it so can comment on it from a position of experience.

However, I would not advocate for that technique unless it was performed by a registered practitioner with appropriate training in manual therapy.

First up the accepted anatomy and physiology of that joint is that it allows nodding movements and a little sideways translation (lateral flexion) but only minimal rotation 93-4 degrees max) on turning the head to the extreme of left or right.

Given the radiological evidence in my own patients (CT scan)_
there are big rotatory abnormalities in which the occipital condyle has ridden so far out that it has gone over the anterior lip of the socket that it fits into on the atlas. These are about 23-27degrees.

The Swiss technique alleges that 98%+ of the population has these subluxations.
My own series flatly contradicts that - it is common- but way less common than that.

However, I have seen a number of people who have had those extreme subluxations corrected, and have never seen a recurrence. I think it would take major force to cause that in an adult. The anatomy is much less well developed and much more pliable- so that is a different issue.
So - they may well be right on the subject of no recurrences of the big subluxations-- but I would suggest that a serious whiplash injury could cause a recurrence.

However, I have seen plenty of minor rotatory subluxations- say 5-10 degrees.

Additionally, the injury in myself has left me with a significant neurological deficit in balance and body awareness. That is improving with neurological rehabilitation and an inner ear medication used in Meniere's disease (betahistine), but an unwelcome and frequent side effect of that has been that I have had multiple recurrent minor subluxations myself.

They are very painful, and cause abrupt and devastating onset of spatial disorientation (try instant full strength ADHD when I am usually free of ADHD symptoms).

So the Swiss technique is wrong on the one treatment fixes all, and also wrong in that it misses the need for more complex management of correction of the whole spine and re-integrating the associated neuromuscular movement abnormalities.

However- had I not discovered that technique, I probably would have died of complications of my Atlas Subluxation by now-- so I am grateful for it, and am confident that it is safe and may be sufficient treatment for many.
I will pm you with some preliminary evidence from a splinter group who were unhappy with the approach of the parent group.

There are also issues with the way it is marketed- in that they market it as a pseudo spiritual thing- which manages to get round advertising restrictions re "medical claims". Personally I take a hard line free market approach here and deny that there is any place for such tight restrictions (I would rather see laws that made full and frank disclosures of what level of official regulatory recognition any approach has and let us adults make our own choices-- but that is a political view and probably should not be discussed on open forum).

I hope that is sufficiently clear for you :)

meadd823
12-20-13, 04:20 AM
Meadd:

Meadd, I don't have a clue of what you are chastising me for. I don't have the time right now to get into his thesis so the only post I have made is one of someone having to earn the right to comment on the forum.

If you want take me to task, that is OK but do it for something I did or said and not for something I have neither done or said on the subject.


Yours,

Dizfriz AKA Defriz

Clarification -------------> So acknowledging the fact that you have created some sizable contributions on this site and pointing out that these contributions required a herculean effort not to mention a hell of a lot time is chastising you????? Reminding you of your own reaction of frustration when people who refuse to read your work or even bother trying to understand where you are coming from before they started criticizing is taking you to task????

I acknowledge that many people sung your praises and still refer to your work - nothing wrong with that but I figured your main intent was not to get praised or strike up a debate but to offer information to help people. Same with Kunga, this is common ground,

You like McTavish who has also contributed a lot of information as well still caught some opposition but not as much as Kunga has - statement of fact, nothing more nothing less.




My intent because apparently it was missed

I wanted you to consider how would you have felt if you got all of the criticism but none of the praises?

Wouldn't you have been upset, feeling your time and effort was wasted?

If you remembered how much it frustrated you when people criticized without even bothering to acknowledge the effort behind your presentation then I figured you would be in a better position to understand Kunga's reaction. Kunga had already acknowledge his own over reaction <----------------/clarification



------------>Statement of perception:
Trying to get people to find the common ground of understanding between them despite other areas where they are different in a effort in increase good will despite passionate opinion opposition is NOT the way to increase civility and empathy but only serves to get one accused and challenged. WTFE <--------/statement

My feelings-------->Making fun of my dyslexia is hitting below the belt.:mad: I am dyslexic NOT stupid, I can not spell but I comprehend very well.

This specific behavior I found to be mildly offensive because it was an effort to cause emotional harm even though I fully understand your post are about you and your perspective having little or nothing to do with me. <----------/feelings

----------->So much for my benefit of a doubt . . . . regarding nature and intent.<-------THAT is a chastisement.

meadd823
12-20-13, 05:21 AM
However, I would not advocate for that technique unless it was performed by a registered practitioner with appropriate training in manual therapy.


Some times people can misrepresent themselves as one who has expertise - If people can fake being doctors, nurses, lawyers and even cops I am sure they can fake being just about any thing.

Pseudo-professionals have done a great deal of damage, in these more "fringe" areas I think it to be much harder for the average person seeking help to spot a charlatan.

However, I have seen a number of people who have had those extreme subluxations corrected, and have never seen a recurrence. I think it would take major force to cause that in an adult. The anatomy is much less well developed and much more pliable- so that is a different issue.

was the below quote mean to to have the word child in it some where?

The anatomy is much less well developed and much more pliable- so that is a different issue

Asking for clarification because it seem like the softer bone and underdeveloped muscles in children especially infants would make such a technique a different kettle of fish.

While the softer boney area would be more mutable I wonder if the muscle region of the neck could support any realignment or better said prevent reoccurring misalignment.


Regard debate and criticism, gennie got it right, her response sounded vague to me -

I don;t think any one actually minds a respectful disagreeing opinion that is specific as to exactly which part of the reference material or presentation is under scrutiny or being opposed. I think a lot if frustration arise when folks feel as if the work they have presented has been ignored or dismissed without due consideration.

I also understand as ADDers who are often on here after a day of hard work and an evening of waning medication it can be difficult communicate the specifics.

Kunga Dorji
12-20-13, 10:49 AM
Some times people can misrepresent themselves as one who has expertise - If people can fake being doctors, nurses, lawyers and even cops I am sure they can fake being just about any thing.


I know so many cases of medical malpractice that have had fatla results and have got through the judicial process that I have given up trying to count.
Just because you get a badge with the "brand du jour" is no indication of competence--- and vice versa.


Asking for clarification because it seem like the softer bone and underdeveloped muscles in children especially infants would make such a technique a different kettle of fish.

While the softer boney area would be more mutable I wonder if the muscle region of the neck could support any realignment or better said prevent reoccurring misalignment.

As per Biedermann- the treatment is minimally invasive in infants, harder in adolescents and hardest in adults.
Muscle development is much stronger in adults.
Also in adults- there is much abnormal neuromotor development that had to be undone and relearned.
THAT side of the problem has taken me 4 years, and I am still improving.




I don;t think any one actually minds a respectful disagreeing opinion that is specific as to exactly which part of the reference material or presentation is under scrutiny or being opposed. I think a lot if frustration arise when folks feel as if the work they have presented has been ignored or dismissed without due consideration.

Thankyou for your understanding.
That much work, and a shabby, slipshod response?
That really hurts.
I should be "less attached".


I also understand as ADDers who are often on here after a day of hard work and an evening of waning medication it can be difficult communicate the specifics.

Fair call, and if I succeed in making others mindful of this dynamic, I will be doing well:)
When we know this, and we always back off from posting until we have thought and settled ourselves- then we will be in charge of our ADHD and not vice vresa.

meadd823
01-01-14, 09:32 AM
While posting on a unrelated thread (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1589643#post1589643) I ran across this -


Sympathetic and parasympathetic responses to specific diversified adjustments to chiropractic vertebral subluxations of the cervical and thoracic spine (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2686395/)

It is preliminarily suggested that cervical adjustments may result in parasympathetic responses, whereas thoracic adjustments result in sympathetic responses. Furthermore, it appears that these responses may demonstrate the relationship of autonomic responses in association to the particular segment(s) adjusted.

Thought I would throw it out there or out here some thing like that . . .

TygerSan
01-01-14, 10:13 AM
I came across this interview with Paul Offit regarding his new book. Full disclaimer, he says a lot of stuff that will annoy people of all spectrums of opinions, but I was most taken by the way he moderated his opinions after talking to practitioners of all sorts (he originally entitled his book Quacks, and while he doesn't take a particularly friendly tone towards alternative medicine practitioners, I think he's at least begun to think about the fact that there's more to treating people than just ticking symptoms off a checklist).

He also touches upon what I think is a cause for a lot of the concern expressed on this thread: that the "alternative" medicine industry is sort of a Wild West, with not a lot of regulation and guarantee of efficacy. Wading through the literature to determine whether something works or doesn't: well, Kunga has done that admirably here, but for the average person, not easy to do. Esp when there is a lot of snake oil and preying upon desperate people (tho that's not the sole domain of the so called alternative medicine practitioners, either).
http://www.thinkingautismguide.com/2013/12/dr-paul-offit-on-sense-and-nonsense-of.html

Hmm... I had intended this as a sort of aside to the convo that started...it seems almost off topic now...if that's the case, feel free to request a move to a new thread.

Kunga Dorji
01-02-14, 08:32 AM
I came across this interview with Paul Offit regarding his new book. Full disclaimer, he says a lot of stuff that will annoy people of all spectrums of opinions, but I was most taken by the way he moderated his opinions after talking to practitioners of all sorts (he originally entitled his book Quacks, and while he doesn't take a particularly friendly tone towards alternative medicine practitioners, I think he's at least begun to think about the fact that there's more to treating people than just ticking symptoms off a checklist).

He also touches upon what I think is a cause for a lot of the concern expressed on this thread: that the "alternative" medicine industry is sort of a Wild West, with not a lot of regulation and guarantee of efficacy. Wading through the literature to determine whether something works or doesn't: well, Kunga has done that admirably here, but for the average person, not easy to do. Esp when there is a lot of snake oil and preying upon desperate people (tho that's not the sole domain of the so called alternative medicine practitioners, either).
http://www.thinkingautismguide.com/2013/12/dr-paul-offit-on-sense-and-nonsense-of.html

Hmm... I had intended this as a sort of aside to the convo that started...it seems almost off topic now...if that's the case, feel free to request a move to a new thread.


It is a little off topic, but the good thing is that now chiropractic is becoming a university taught subject, and that will help chiropractors to get better at structuring the good evidence they do have about what they do, and hopefully at getting more funding for research.

My overall impression of the chiropractors I have seen is that they are extremely helpful, and highly skilled, but many of them (not all) need to be incorporating more structured home exercises in their treatment regimes.
In general, the ones i have worked with have outstanding knowledge of anatomy and physiology- leaving most doctors I know in the shadows.

Now if you are interested in a really good paper on the theoretical frameworks supporting complementary therapies- it is worth looking at this paper:
http://www.intechopen.com/download/get/type/pdfs/id/40021

The "Virtual Scanning" approach is highly novel- but has been licenced for diagnostic and therapeutic use in Russia and the Ukraine for about 10 years.

I am actually interested in trialing this approach myself- but regardless of that the paper makes some excellent points about the relative strengths and weaknesses of
both complementary and allopathic approaches.The author is very keen to see complementary therapies tied to conventional scientific theory.
(though we know that conventional theory is today's best model- and another "Theory of Relativity" could came along any day and upturn the conventional wisdom.

Kunga Dorji
01-02-14, 08:42 AM
Incidentally, the observations that Biedermann makes related to KISS and KIDD syndrome are something that is easily quantifiable.
I am fully intending, now that I am back in practice to start more formally evaluating for historical features of such problems- and that could easily form the basis for a research project.