View Full Version : New Models of ADHD causation


Kunga Dorji
12-15-13, 11:32 PM
Here is some interesting research from a Neuropsychiatrist bt the name of Dr Howard Levinson:

http://www.prweb.com/releases/cerebellum/phobias/prweb11414750.htm


Intriguing Dyslexia and ADHD Research Explains the Hidden Origins and Successful Treatment of Phobias, Announced by Dr. Harold Levinson

While successfully treating dyslexia and ADHD children and adults with inner-ear-improving medications, Dr. Levinson found that his patients’ many and varied phobias rapidly and unexpectedly disappeared. He then understood the hidden inner-ear and related cerebellar origins of over 90% of the fears and phobias that force anxiety ridden individuals to seek help, and how to better treat them.



and

Dr Harold Levinson, a world-renowned psychiatrist and neurologist credited with dramatic medical breakthroughs in the understanding, diagnosis and successful treatment of dyslexia, has clarified inner-ear research into the specific mechanisms and holistic treatment of phobias, as well as how they overlap with each other, dyslexia and ADHD. His now validated cerebellar and inner-ear insights have also led to a "highly original" understanding and treatment of dyslexia and ADHD, each affecting over 10% of mankind.
Interestingly this overlaps very strongly with understandings from chiropractic and from research by the Orthopedic Surgeon Heiner Biedermann, which delineates the mechanisms by which upper neck dysfunction causes dizziness.

I would also reference the classic text book
"General Practice" by Prof John Murtagh

P652 "The commonest cause of neck pain is ideopathic dysfunction of the facet joints without a history of injury.
This is the syndrome that chiropractors describe as subluxations.

and


P657: possible symptoms of problems of cervical spinal origin:
include dizzyness/vertigo, and visual dysfunction
I also reference Biedermann's book Manual Therapy in Children- where he discusses that children are rarely aware of neck and back pain though may complain of headaches, or resist examination of the neck.


Following the Levinson trail leads to this:

http://www.dyslexiaonline.com/blog/rising-incidence-adhd-calls-radical-rethinking/


Posted by Claudia M Gold November 27, 2013 01:51 PM
When the American Academy of Pediatrics changed the guidelines for ADHD to expand age of diagnosis to include children from age 4-18 (from 6-12), that the number of cases would rise was, by definition, inevitable. Speaking at an international child psychiatry conference with a working title: “The ADHD Diagnosis (http://dyslexiaonline.com/disorders/medication_abuse.html) : a Deconstruction from Developmental, Psychoanalytic, Infant Mental Health and Neuropsychiatric Perspectives, ” Dr. Claudia Gold provided vital insights into determining the varied mechanisms contributing to the symptoms of ADHD as well as offering non-pharmacological alternatives. Thus she states, ” ‘ADHD’, used as a primary diagnosis, has no etiologic significance, is conceptually and diagnostically distracting, leads to a paucity of thinking about a patient’s early developmental history and trauma, and is therapeutically misleading. I hope that there will be a large scale movement to “deconstruct” the ‘ADHD’ diagnosis. In essence deconstructing the diagnosis means eliminating the diagnosis. Instead we would understand and treat the multiple parts that make up what is now called ADHD. Such a process would result in effective early intervention and prevention.


“According to Dr Levinson, “Dr Gold's ADHD concepts and their clinical implementation in young children are exceptional and brilliantly stated. I had proposed similar concepts in my book “Total concentration,” albeit with some differences. At the time I proposed subdividing Concentration Disorders or ADHD into 4-5 diverse and often overlapping etiological categories. And then dissecting their Realistic, Traumatic, Neurotic, Neurophysiological cerebellar-vestibular and Cerebral origins or mechanisms. And then treating each of the contributing mechanisms selectively, rather than viewing this composite syndrome as having only one cause and one corresponding treatment. ”

So, here we have two psychiatrists actually proposing exactly the kind of analysis that I have been proposing of aetiology of ADHD.

Traumatic-- complex childhood trauma
Neurotic--attachment based
Vestibular - Cerebellar- would include upper cervical
Cerebral- head injury, lead poisoning, primary genetic deficiencies in neurotransmitter production +/- dietary deficiencies.
Realistic? That I would have to hunt up a little more- maybe this relates to situations where one is genuinely confused as to what one should attend to?

I must dig further

Kunga Dorji
12-16-13, 12:04 AM
So- Wikipedia

children with dyslexia as he would children with an inner ear problem, using anti-motion sickness medication. He also used the same over-the-counter medication to help treat the associated attention deficit, hyperactivity, impaired concentration and distractability.[/URL]In interviews about his treatment he has stated that "The inner ear and cerebellum work like a fine-tuner to the brain", and the motion sickness medication helps with the fine tuning. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Levinson#cite_note-4)His findings suggested that cerebellar problems cause a scrambling of information, which secondarily confuse higher brain processors. Levinson has been using the same treatment since the 1960s and in 1978 the new treatment was covered by the American press. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Levinson#cite_note-6)Levinson appeared on television to discuss his treatment ideas in the late 1970s and early 1980s. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Levinson#cite_note-8)In 1985, Levinson observed that 750 out of 1000 dyslexia patients also had problems with balance and coordination. By 1986 Levinson had medically treated more than 8,000 patients with dyslexia, and reported a success rate of between 75% and 80%. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Levinson#cite_note-10)He had also studied more than 20,000 patients in total. One of the additional psychological problems Levinson determined was associated with the same brain disorder is the rise of adult phobias Levinson's observations led him to believe that up to 90% of people who suffered from phobias also suffered from cerebellar and inner-ear malfunctions, leading the suffered to believe the fear is rational. He published a book entitled Phobia Free in which his findings were outlined.[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Levinson#cite_note-13"] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Levinson#cite_note-Boyd-12)



So- a mainstream doctor, all highly plausible neurologically,and a reasonable patient base to consider.

His big problem is that he is swimming against the stream at a time when the dominant theoretical paradigm has really dug its heels in.

janiew
12-16-13, 01:28 AM
Very interesting - I have major neck / cervical spine issues. Evidently I fractured the spinous process of my C7 and never knew it until recently. Another interesting thing is that it didn't heal / bond / reattach. But then we didn't know about it and it wasn't treated.

As a result of the untreated fracture and my rheumatoid arthritis, I have major neck issues and am facing surgery in the next 5 years...

meadd823
12-16-13, 02:08 AM
Deconstruction from Developmental, Psychoanalytic, Infant Mental Health and Neuropsychiatric Perspectives, ” Dr. Claudia Gold provided vital insights into determining the varied mechanisms contributing to the symptoms of ADHD as well as offering non-pharmacological alternatives. Thus she states, ” ‘ADHD’, used as a primary diagnosis, has no etiologic significance, is conceptually and diagnostically distracting, leads to a paucity of thinking about a patient’s early developmental history and trauma, and is therapeutically misleading.



While I am open to integrating various approaches to ADHD treatment to be perfectly clear that I am NOT in favor of deconstructing the diagnosis nor do I support any type of dismissal with regards to the effectiveness of the current medical approach.

I do not subscribe to any type of either or approach to ADHD treatment and I think many will find I am just as willing and able to stand up for the cause of ADHD as a bonafied neurological condition with regards to medical references and clinical approaches to treatment despite my personal belief and perceptions.


This deconstruction approach will only further alienate newer alternative approaches to the main stream medical treatments some thing I am NOT nor have I ever been in favor of as I am first and foremost a believer in integration NOT segregation or do I support stagnation in the name of semantics

- As much as I do believe in researching various options including chiropractic, mindfulness and even dietary I am not in favor of completely eliminating the referential diagnosis that allows people to find medical relief as well as the terms that we use to find each other.

With regards to dyslexia I would have been more impressed if the author had at least known there was more than neuropathic variation in those of us with dyslexia

This research suggests that for dyslexic readers, the left brain areas associated with phonetic decoding are ineffective. While a non-dyslexic reader finds such pathways an efficient route to reading, the dyslexic reader essentially becomes entangled in a neural traffic jam. In contrast, dyslexics who bypass these mental pathways, relying more on areas of the brain involved in nonverbal thought and in analytic thought, are able to become capable readers.

Read more: http://www.dyslexia.com/science/different_pathways.htm#ixzz2ncBH9OtU

The minute I read about the use of the right hemisphere by pass my reading style instantly made sense - I do not read words I experience the idea being conveyed

I have used the chiropractic approach to relieve subluxatation and I found my depression eased probably because I could sleep without waking up to numb limbs I was still dyslexic and ADHD

SB_UK
12-17-13, 08:44 AM
I have used the chiropractic approach to relieve subluxatation and I found my depression eased probably because I could sleep without waking up to numb limbs I was still dyslexic and ADHD

Since having my atlas fixed - I haven't been able to sit or slouch on a sofa and even feel uncomfortable slouching on a proper chair.

In retrospect - I think that that's a fairly reasonable outcome (ie the sort of thing you'd have expected) which I've experienced.

Kunga Dorji
12-17-13, 09:03 AM
While I am open to integrating various approaches to ADHD treatment to be perfectly clear that I am NOT in favor of deconstructing the diagnosis nor do I support any type of dismissal with regards to the effectiveness of the current medical approach.

Why are you not in favour of "deconstructing the diagnosis"? Who is it who tells you that that concept is wrong, and why do you believe them?

The neurology of attention is complex- and a neurological analysis of attention problems is guaranteed to differentiate many different faults in the neurology of attention.

Getting a handle upon them is guaranteed to "deconstruct" attention problems into a number of different causal groups.

Any other approach will be intellectually untenable- but identifying with that position is a choice you must make, not i.

I am pushing you to be free, not to be subsumed by my intellect (as big a danger as that is :)

Kunga Dorji
12-17-13, 09:07 AM
Since having my atlas fixed - I haven't been able to sit or slouch on a sofa and even feel uncomfortable slouching on a proper chair.

In retrospect - I think that that's a fairly reasonable outcome (ie the sort of thing you'd have expected) which I've experienced.

Bottom line- since my atlas was fixed- my attention is perfect- when I sit in Burmese or 1/2 lotus position. Full lotus is too painful- it hurts my knees.

The fact that you notice the discomfort of slouching tells me that you are almost there.

Kunga Dorji
12-17-13, 09:26 AM
While I am open to integrating various approaches to ADHD treatment to be perfectly clear that I am NOT in favor of deconstructing the diagnosis nor do I support any type of dismissal with regards to the effectiveness of the current medical approach.

I do not subscribe to any type of either or approach to ADHD treatment and I think many will find I am just as willing and able to stand up for the cause of ADHD as a bonafied neurological condition with regards to medical references and clinical approaches to treatment despite my personal belief and perceptions.


This deconstruction approach will only further alienate newer alternative approaches to the main stream medical treatments some thing I am NOT nor have I ever been in favor of as I am first and foremost a believer in integration NOT segregation or do I support stagnation in the name of semantics

- As much as I do believe in researching various options including chiropractic, mindfulness and even dietary I am not in favor of completely eliminating the referential diagnosis that allows people to find medical relief as well as the terms that we use to find each other.

With regards to dyslexia I would have been more impressed if the author had at least known there was more than neuropathic variation in those of us with dyslexia

This research suggests that for dyslexic readers, the left brain areas associated with phonetic decoding are ineffective. While a non-dyslexic reader finds such pathways an efficient route to reading, the dyslexic reader essentially becomes entangled in a neural traffic jam. In contrast, dyslexics who bypass these mental pathways, relying more on areas of the brain involved in nonverbal thought and in analytic thought, are able to become capable readers.

Read more: http://www.dyslexia.com/science/different_pathways.htm#ixzz2ncBH9OtU

The minute I read about the use of the right hemisphere by pass my reading style instantly made sense - I do not read words I experience the idea being conveyed

I have used the chiropractic approach to relieve subluxatation and I found my depression eased probably because I could sleep without waking up to numb limbs I was still dyslexic and ADHD

Meadd- you make some good points-- BUT you have the horns by the bull- rather than having the problem the right way round.
"deconstruction" simply implies that "attention deficit is a "phenotype" that may be arrived at my many different gene-environment interactions, and challenges us to delineate those streams of analysis. If we look at the problem this way- we can see that may different pathways lead to the same phenotypic outcome.
I can gel with a peron who has ADHD as a consequence of complex childhood trauma vs myself- who has atlas subluxation as beig the primary cause.
It does not mater all that much- we all think in roughly the same way-whatever the genetics.

To sum up a separate discussion I have had off site today.
The ideal posture for attentional stability is in Buddhist terms called the "seven point posture of Vairochana (noe of the Buddhas).
That posture is not achievable with an uncorrected atlas subluxation.
This is the commentary that I (nearly) finalised today on that posture:

I hope you appreciate this serious attempt to fuse traditional spiritual explanations of meditation posture with a hard edged physiological explanation of what is happening:
[qupte]
Seven-point posture of Vairochana (http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Vairochana) (Skt. saptadharma-vairocana; Wyl. (http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Wyl.) rnam snang chos bdun; Tib. nam nang chö dün):


Legs crossed
Hands in the lap or on the knees
Back (spine straight)
Shoulders spread like a vulture’s wings
Head and Neck (chin slightly lowered)
Mouth (tip of the tongue touching the palate)
Eyes (gazing past the tip of the nose).[/quote]

My assessment- which is based on neurophysiology and aims to avoid "spiritual" explanations which scare off some "scientific types".

1) Legs crossed:
This is best, but sitting on a chair with the knees lower than the hips and the feet flat on the floor is a reasonable compromise.
We need a stable position that can be held with comfort for extended periods. I prefer "Burmese Position", using a stool. My flexibility is improving but not 100%. We must not force ourselves, endure excessive discomfort, injure our knee ligaments or cause compression injuries to our nerves.
Advantages- stability, “earthing”, left right contact and information exchange.
When knees are lower than hips this reduces negative interoceptive feedback: note that when threatened by predators, pulling the knees up protects the abdomen from evisceration. It is to be expected that the sensory signals generated by this posture will give interoceptive feedback to the brain signalling threat. This certainly applies when one tenses one’s biceps. Additionally, when the knees are lower than the hips the curve of the lumbar spine is "correct". Excess lumbar lordosis causes an autonomic imbalance towards sympathetic overarousal:
see articles 2 and 3 here:
http://stephenporges.com/index.php/scientific-articles/publicationss

(http://stephenporges.com/index.php/scientific-articles/publicationss)

2) Hand Posture:
This gives us a stable and set place to put hands. We know what we are going to do- so don't waste time deciding on that.

Right hand of wisdom resting in the left hand of compassion with thumbs touching- this mudra generates awareness of the key message behind Buddhism that wisdom must be tempered by compassion. It acts as a reminder of what we are aiming to achieve. So- neurologically it generates a situationally appropriate top down drive.
Again, left- right hand contact increases cross brain traffic and integrated function of the two cerebral hemispheres.
Also- the hands can be elevated a little if becoming tired and that slight tension can help sustain alertness. Additionally the hands together posture helps get the shoulders in place and straighten the back.
Finally- one can focus on the subtle variations in pressure between the barely touching thumb tips as a really subtle and challenging version of breath awareness.
3) Back (spine straight)
Back: ear canals, centre of shoulder joints and centre of hip joints should be aligned and we aim to draw up to our maximal height. The head must be vertical- not tilted.
The old "imagining a string pulling up the top of the head" story is a helpful way to achieve this, as is focussing on elevating the sternum when breathing. The core muscles (erector spinae thoracis) cannot be activated wilfully- so imagining a posture helps here. Think of a statue of a Buddha and try to match that. Use mirrors if needs be.
Be aware though that this business of imitating a posture is within the world of Shamanism. (hence Tibetan Buddhism).

Re a vertical head: I doubt you were aware of it- but your head was on a big tilt all the time we were talking. Not a criticism- just an observation-- why is it so?

Now when we hold this balanced posture we exert minimal muscular effort. This posture can be held for hours with minimal exertion- if our spine is aligned. Our core muscles are designed to cope with the metabolic load of tonic contraction. The more superficial muscles (scalene, trapezius and sternocleidomastoid in the neck, for example, are not.
What happens with more training is that we notice how we contract around anxiety or anger- and we notice that when we relax back into upright posture-- the emotion fizzles out and dies. All we are left with is a difficult situation that needs to be considered and weighed up in the cold, hard light of day. How do we deal with this situation and produce an outcome that will benefit everyone involved?
This is Vipassana- analysing the situation and fitting it in with our best attempt at "right view". You look for the contradictions and the conflicts and ask what they mean- and what it is that you have misunderstood. The teachings have withstood 2,500 years of testing and criticism. Can you better that? Can you "refute the Buddha?"- as Alan Wallace challenges us.
4. Elbows and Shoulders

Simply put- these aid correct upper body posture. Maybe there is more to it than that- I am yet to discover it.

5. Neck and Chin

The neck should be retracted- ears vertically above the centre of the shoulder joint. The chin slightly downwards tilted.
Both of there maneuvers minimise sympathetic overactivation.
Furthermore - if we sit in a posture with head forwards and hyperextension at the joint between the skull and the neck, venous drainage of the brain and CSF flow between the intracranial cavity and the spinal cord are compromised. see :



http://www.upright-health.com/cerebrospinal-fluid.html
So a posture which leads to hyperextension at the skull/neck joint results in: this:

http://www.upright-health.com/cerebrospinal-fluid.html

Cerebrospinal Fluid, Hydrocephalus and Edema
CSF also mixes with the fluids that surround the cells of the brain called interstitial fluids. CSF is thus connected to waste removal from the brain. A back-up in venous outflow causes interstitial edema or swelling. A back-up in CSF causes hydrocephalus (http://www.upright-health.com/normal-pressure-hydrocephalus.html). CSF mixes with and leaves the brain with venous blood, therefore, a back-up in the venous drainage system of the brain can lead to a back-up in CSF. This has led some scientists to suggest that edema and hydrocephalus in the brain are essentially one and the same.

My comment:

Interstitial oedema leads to impaired oxygen transfer-and will lead to accumulation of toxic metabolites, and ultimately apoptosis and death of brain cells.
Additionally the hyperextension at this joint sends a powerful inhibitory drive into the cerebellum- and thence to the contralateral frontal lobe. Ultimately the cells in the frontal lobe die because of lack of stimulatory drive.This phenomenon (diaschisis) is well described in terms of the neurology of cerebrovascular accidents, but is much more widely applicable than conventional neurologists would accept. My brain scan from 2008 (SPECT) reflects it perfectly.
Also- an extended neck will put traction on the upper cervical sympathetic ganglion - stimulating unnecessary firing of sympathetic stimuli.


6) Mouth:
Nose breathing increases nitric oxide levels in the blood. The benefits of that are way too big a topic to discuss here.
Also the pressure of the tongue on the point at the back of the upper incisors stimulates an acupressure point that results in parasympathetic activation.
Most of us live in a state of sympathetic hyperstimulation-- so this is useful.
I quote Stephen Porges again:
Again the "Somatic Perspectives in Psychotherapy" interview:
http://stephenporges.com/index.php/scientific-articles/publicationss
article 1 in the list:

P11 answer1:
"I started to think about mindfulness meditation and realised that even mindfulness exercises need to be conducted in a safe environment....... I also realised that recruiting the defensive systems associated with the sympathetic nervous system was incompatible with mindfulness.


7:Eyes:
My hypnotherapy training tells me that if the gaze is stabilised, the attention will stabilise. Narrow focus attention (spotlight attention, or single pointed attention) has very close correlation with the high discrimination ability of the macula (central vision) in directing gaze. So- there is no surprise here.


So here is the spiritual- Buddhist interpretation of the same set of instructions.
Probably BOTH ways of considering the information are correct.

So the "traditional way" of seeing this:


Significance of the Seven Point Buddhist Posture

1. Lower Body
Sit on a soft and comfortable seat, with your legs in the lotus, or diamond posture. This posture shapes your bottom and legs into a triangle, which symbolises the 'womb of enlightenment'. Once you become accustomed to this posture, it will give you a feeling of roundedness, as if you were in direct contact with Mother Earth. You will get to know her qualities of endurance and stability. Mother Earth is the source or womb of all that exists in the world. Physically, it is said that our effusive energy can be controlled by the cross-legged posture. Interlocking the legs expresses harmony between all dualities, including you and the rest of the world, as well as the mind and body. It is the wedding ring that represents the marriage between your spiritual self and the enlightened being. Spiritually, this body language expresses your confidence and determination.



When the Buddha sat under the Bodhi tree on a mattress of Kusha grass, pledging not to move from that posture, the earth shook six times. This is the posture we used as babies. It was only later in our lives that we learned to sit on chairs, sofas and more recently even lazy chairs and bean bags.
2. Hands
Place your hands on your lap, with the back of the right hand flat on the left open palm, and the inside of the tips of the thumbs upraised and gently touching each other, about two inches below the navel. This posture induces a feeling of equanimity. It expresses a withdrawal from extremes of emotion and symbolises the search for spiritual contemplation. By pressing your thumbs together below the navel, which is the centre of psychic heat, you control your thermal energy. On the spiritual level, this position of the hands signifies your aspiration to transcend dualism. It symbolises the indispensability of uniting compassion and wisdom, not striving for one without the other.
By resting your active right hand, representing masculinity, on top of the passive left hand, representing femininity, you begin to cultivate balance and harmony. This is analogous to a carefully coordinated flexing of two wings in preparation for travelling into the space-like freedom of enlightenment. The ten most important subtle veins of our bodies are located at the tips of our fingers. Bringing these veins together in the lap is essential for developing meditation. The importance of hands is illustrated when we shake hands with another person. We intuitively learn something about the other person simply through the hand contact.
3. Back
Keep the backbone straight, with the vertebrae upright so as to extend the entire body, while maintaining a feeling of inner relaxation. This induces the mind to be wakeful and attentive. Although the central channel is very subtle, it is located within the physical spinal column. Maintaining a straight, upright back allows both the subtle airs and the blood to flow easily. If the body is kept straight, the veins will remain straight. When the veins are straight, the subtle element known as Bodhicitta nectar will flow unimpeded and the mind current will also flow freely. The main message here is the importance of keeping the back straight throughout meditation.
Remember that posture controls the diffusive energy of the body. Correct posture symbolises our spiritual confidence and resolute attitude towards our practice. Think of the importance of shooting a straight arrow if we wish to hit the target!
4. Elbows and Shoulders
Straighten your elbows and shoulders evenly. Model yourself on a vulture who is flexing his wings before taking off. This sustains the vital energies by promoting full expansion of the lungs during meditation. This position synchronises and harmonises all the elements of the bodily posture.
5. Neck and Chin
Press your chin downwards slightly so as to allow the neck to bend slightly forwards. Do not bend your neck to either side, or backwards. This would produce unwanted heat in the upper part of the body which could cause sluggishness and drowsiness. A slight forward bending of the neck, on the other hand, helps to channel the


12



ascending energy and guards against coughing, sneezing and burping during meditation. This posture co- ordinates the position of the head to the rest of the body, particularly the shoulders.
6. Mouth
The tip of the tongue should touch the upper palate, with the teeth barely meeting and lips kept natural. This position helps to avoid extreme dryness and wetness occurring within the mouth, and allows the cooling breath to pass freely between the teeth. Meditators who forget to maintain this position may fall asleep during the meditation, dribbling and with slanted mouths. There are more advanced mouth postures which so effectively promote the blessings of physical vitality that one does not need to eat any gross food.
Actually, our bodies are b3Nand large made weary by our continuous consumption, processing and discharge of gross food. Just imagine that by keeping your mouth in the correct posture you will not only reduce feelings of hunger, but save on your grocery bill at the same time! When you experience hunger, you can simply let your tongue imbibe more fresh saliva from the upper palate, which will keep you going for quite a while. Do not neglect the tongue posture, it is very important to the success of your meditation.
7. Eyes
The eyes should gaze serenely into the space a little beyond the tip of the nose, without the eyeballs moving or the eyelids blinking. Our eyes contain the nerves which govern discursive thoughts. It is therefore crucial to control them by maintaining the correct gaze. You are not focussing on anything in particular, yet at the same time you are not avoiding anything, either. Never shut your eyes while meditating. To do so is considered very inauspicious in the Tibetan system of meditation. My teacher always opens his eyes as widely as possible during visualisation meditation. If you shut your eyes, it will spoil your mouth posture and may even induce sleep. Keeping the eyes in the correct gaze also helps to relax the facial muscles, and will remove wrinkles caused by worry and anxiety. This immobile gaze of the eyes will help to control all the secondary energies, revitalise the nervous system, reduce blood pressure, stress and anxiety, evoke spiritual energies and stabilise your regenerative fluids, particularly the seminal fluids in their respective planes. The eyes are very important. You can tell a lot about another person by looking into his or her eyes.





Same basic data but a medical explanation vs a spiritual explanation


Now do you see that the same data can be cut, diced and rearranged according to our "chosen intellectual framework' and that no one framework necessarily has precedence or the right to be regarded as correct?

https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/images/cleardot.gif

daveddd
12-17-13, 09:37 AM
i had a lot of inner ear infections as a kid


also its highly correlated with poor tissue connectivity problems found in fragile x

fragile x has over a 90% adhd rate

meadd823
12-20-13, 06:18 AM
Since having my atlas fixed - I haven't been able to sit or slouch on a sofa and even feel uncomfortable slouching on a proper chair.

In retrospect - I think that that's a fairly reasonable outcome (ie the sort of thing you'd have expected) which I've experienced.

Are you still experiencing those ADD type traits to the same degree that you did when you were diagnosed?




Meadd- you make some good points-- BUT you have the horns by the bull- rather than having the problem the right way round.
"deconstruction" simply implies that "attention deficit is a "phenotype" that may be arrived at my many different gene-environment interactions, and challenges us to delineate those streams of analysis. If we look at the problem this way- we can see that may different pathways lead to the same phenotypic outcome.
I can gel with a peron who has ADHD as a consequence of complex childhood trauma vs myself- who has atlas subluxation as beig the primary cause.
It does not mater all that much- we all think in roughly the same way-whatever the genetics.



I am against deconstruction because I think it will do nothing but create more confusion with regards to those seeking relief from their impairment. Personally I do not agree with the impairment aspect I feel my ADHD traits are an extreme of a continuum that simply does not gel well with present day social expectations Regardless of what I personally believe I still have to function with in present day society well enough to provide a roof over my head and buy cat food


Getting diagnosed and helped is already a humongous feat for many. I was misdiagnosed thus experienced several treatment failures before being diagnosed with ADHD - If ADD was deconstructed would I have ever received help at all?

I mean I do not doubt that you are accurate in your own experience but we may not all be effected the same way. There is no way to know how many of us have ADD symptoms for the same reason you do. This deconstruction will more than likely end up being complete dismissal of ADD as a legit diagnosis thus sending us back to square one -

If "we" {the general sense we} can not handle one condition with three sub-sets I feel the chances of a using more complex fluid approach being of any treatment value to the majority of ADDers to be even less likely thus even fewer people would actually be acknowledged as having a legitimate condition and offered treatment options = medical or other wise .

I am alternate in much of my personal points of view with my own ADHD but when it comes to massive changes in the medical paradyme with regards to ADHD diagnosis and treatment I tend to be more conservative because of the struggles faced by so many under our present day less complex but more concrete approach.



I will have to try those postures out and delved further into your presentation another time I have had a long day and need to get into bed. I do not want to respond to those parts of your response which I have not sufficiently read and considered.

Kunga Dorji
12-20-13, 09:33 AM
i had a lot of inner ear infections as a kid


also its highly correlated with poor tissue connectivity problems found in fragile x

fragile x has over a 90% adhd rate

OK- you have trumped me- I did not know that.
Now I do:)
Thankyou.

Very well done-- now we are seeing a new model emerging.
Each of us contributes our own observations and creates a bigger, better whole.
This outcome cannot happen within the hierarchical model of control of university dominated allopathic medicine.
This model is the basis of the new world we are collaborating in as we dismantle the basis of hierarchical power within any field of knowledge, and we learn to respect the genuine contributions of the learned and courageous individual.

Think on this as an extension to where you are already going:
Ref :
"Fibromyalgia syndrome: A Practitioner's Guide to Ttreatment."
Ed Leon Chaitow (Osteopath).
Chapter 1 "Other theories of causation: P13

1)Duna & Wilke (1993) propose that disordered sleep leads to reduced serotonin production......."
2)Dysautonomia, autonomic imbalance or dysfunction, characterised by relentless sympathetic hyperactivity, more prominent at night (Martinez-Lavin & Hermilosillo 2005), have been proposed as foundational causes within a subgroup of individuals with FMS (and CFS).....
3) As will be outlined, some research studies have found evidence of a genetically linked predisposition towards FMS. Congenital structural abnormalities such as extreme ligamentous laxity..... certainly seem to seem to predispose towards FMS.
Anyone with a proper understanding of the physiology of the autonomic nervous system would understand that ligamentous laxity would predispose towards both dysautonomia (and hence deficient emotional self regulation "DESR- see Stephen Faraone- a BIG name in ADHD research. His talk on this is on You Tube".
p16


Many FMS patients exhibit low carbon dioxide levels when resting- an indication of possible hyperventilation

...and also an expected outcome of "Upper Crossed Posture" Ref Dr Vladimir Janda, or "Sternal Stress syndrome" (Ref Hiener Biedermann, Manual Therapy in children. Upper crossed posture is an expected outcome of "subocciptal strain"- see Biedermann and below.


Trauma, (eg whiplash) seems to be a key factor in many cases of FMS, and especially cervical injuries, especially those involving the suboccipital musculature (Bennett 1986b, Curatolo et al 2001,Hallegren et al 1993)....
and now to the dual punchlines:
Chapter 1 P13:

Hudson et al (2004) have proposed that fibromyalgia is one member of a group of 14 psychiatric and medical disorders (ADHD, bulemia/anorexia nervosa/dysthymic disorder, generalised anxiety disorder, major depressive disorder, obsessive - compulsive disorder, panic disorder, PTSD, premenstrual dysphoric disorder and social phobia plus four medical conditions: fibromyalgia, irritable bowel syndrome, migraine and cataplexy, collectively termed "affective spectrum disorder", hypothesised to share possibly heritable pathophysiological features.
Following detailed analysis of data from 800 individuals with and without fibromyalgia (and the additional conditions under assessment) Hudson et al Concluded that the present information added to the evidence that the psychiatric and medical disorders, grouped under the term ASD, run together in families, raising the possibility that these disorders might share a heritable physiological abnormality.
and finally
Chapter 3 p73

"Some prevalence rates of hypermobility"
3. There may also be compensatory hypermobility, resulting from hypomobility elsewhere in the musculoskeletal system...


In Biedermann's book (see y thread on Upper Cervical problems and ADHD, he specifies that the outcome of a functional injury to the upper cervical region at birth is a chronic hypomobility and hyperextension in the upper cervical region and also that he believes there is a genetic element to the problem, associated with the morphology of the upper cervical vertebrae.

So-- the big question (I do not know): Is fragile X associated with ligamentous laxity?
(Your turn to research- it is well past my bedtime:)

If anyone wants the full details of the references tagged- please pm me.

daveddd
12-20-13, 09:37 AM
http://books.google.com/books?id=5YK8lVfZ7FgC&pg=PA21&dq=fragile+x+double+jointed&hl=en&sa=X&ei=9Ee0Uui7EOPSyAHt2IHQDw&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=fragile%20x%20double%20jointed&f=false

daveddd
12-20-13, 09:38 AM
http://books.google.com/books?id=5YK8lVfZ7FgC&pg=PA21&dq=fragile+x+double+jointed&hl=en&sa=X&ei=9Ee0Uui7EOPSyAHt2IHQDw&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=fragile%20x%20double%20jointed&f=false


im not positive , but i think this is what you mean right?

Kunga Dorji
12-20-13, 10:27 AM
Since having my atlas fixed - I haven't been able to sit or slouch on a sofa and even feel uncomfortable slouching on a proper chair.

In retrospect - I think that that's a fairly reasonable outcome (ie the sort of thing you'd have expected) which I've experienced.


Since my atlas was fixed- formal meditation posture works better than anything else.

That has to be a good sign.

I will post on the neurophysiology of the "Seven Point Posture of Vairochana" another night.
The draft is almost finalised.

Kunga Dorji
12-20-13, 10:28 AM
im not positive , but i think this is what you mean right?


Nice work.
That is a keeper.
Thank you again, for both your attention, and your discriminating intellect.

daveddd
12-20-13, 12:57 PM
Nice work.
That is a keeper.
Thank you again, for both your attention, and your discriminating intellect.

so fragile x has known inner ear infections, joint laxity, another common issue is a mitral valve prolapse

I've seen that issue here on the forums as well

how do you think all that can relate with the adhd

Kunga Dorji
12-20-13, 02:26 PM
so fragile x has known inner ear infections, joint laxity, another common issue is a mitral valve prolapse

I've seen that issue here on the forums as well

how do you think all that can relate with the adhd


The link that I am thinking most likely is via dysregulation of the autonomic nervous system- which contributes most of the internal sensations which go to crreate our psychic ocnstruct of emotion (See Antonio Damasio- somatic marker hypothesis, or the extensive literature of the role of the insula in interoception (perception of internal body states0.

There are several possible mechanisms- at least:

1)Deficient rigidity of blood vessel walls- causing makred postural instability of blood pressure (I know one case of ADHD which later was found to have Ehlers Danlos syndrome as a significant contributing cause of her highly irregular blood pressure and sudden stress responses as her body struggled with this problem..

2) Postural dysregulation- with brainstem and segmental effects on autonomic regulation.
3) Recurrent musculoligamentous injuries- leading to pain syndromes and secondary stress and sleep deprivation issues.

4) Increased risk of upper neck injuries.

daveddd
12-20-13, 02:53 PM
That's interesting

So a back and forth relationship

ginniebean
12-21-13, 01:17 PM
Why are you not in favour of "deconstructing the diagnosis"? Who is it who tells you that that concept is wrong, and why do you believe them?

The neurology of attention is complex- and a neurological analysis of attention problems is guaranteed to differentiate many different faults in the neurology of attention.

Getting a handle upon them is guaranteed to "deconstruct" attention problems into a number of different causal groups.

Any other approach will be intellectually untenable- but identifying with that position is a choice you must make, not i.

I am pushing you to be free, not to be subsumed by my intellect (as big a danger as that is :)



A number of questions come up. Each of these modalities and speculations attack the existing research suggesting it must be flawed. That the syndrome itself is untenable yet does so with little cohesive evidence.

Why is it identification with the research as is and not identification with all these alternatives. Are you suggesting that these alternatives with much less evidence do not or cannot lead to identification with them? Why couch this in what appears to be self congratulatory language?

To be "free" is to form a belief in just about anything that attacks what is now? Yet another self congratulatory statement. I guess my red flags go up when legitimate questions are raised and they get poo poo'd as unenlightend and phobic. The use of this dynamic has always struck me as deeply manipulative emotionally.


I've often said what you and a few others are doing is chopping down the tree people are sitting in with no substantial alternative. In essence this strikes me as so similar to the seventies movement to de-institutionalized the mentally ill with no, or completely inadequate supports in place. Yes, they were being set "free" but it is questionable in terms of compassion to have some free to live under a bridge cold and hungry, still sick with no relief. Go, be free!

Kunga Dorji
12-21-13, 05:24 PM
A number of questions come up. Each of these modalities and speculations attack the existing research suggesting it must be flawed. That the syndrome itself is untenable yet does so with little cohesive evidence.


No, I think that your problems here are epistomological.
By definition a "syndrome" is a clinically defined pattern, a cluster of symptoms that occur together frequently and lead to similar outcomes.
Nobody is questioning that there is a well defined clinical syndrome of a cluster of behaviours that commonly occur together involving difficulties with focussing, sustaining and shifting attention,impulsive behaviour and hyperactivity.
Nobody is questioning that there are marked behavioural similarities between individuals with this syndrome, and that if left unchecked it leads to a range of well documented evidence.

I developed in this direction of inquiry because I was not satisfied with the treatment being offered me, and because the arguments of commentators like Mate show more accurate perception of the inner lives of ADHD people, are more consistent with the overall corpus of neuroolgical, psychological and developmental research than the conventional models that you favour but do not specify formally, are more internally consistent.

They have practical utility in that they empower me and motivate me to be more proactive in my self management, and they work in practice.
What I am doing here is taking a deeper look at the phenomenonology of ADHD, and closely inspecting the causes of any one episode of imperfect attention and then attempting to develop a comprehensive program of management that masters the whole problem.

I do not like the problems that ADHD causes in my life.
I do like my lateral thinking pattern (an element of my ADHD).
I do not enjoy the rigid thinking styles and judgmental attitudes of the neurotypical. They make poor companions, en masse they usually rush, lemming like to the same idiotic political decisions, and they are very difficult to share a workplace with.

However, I have learned that if I trouble to take accurate notes of each day, I can spot many times when my attention is really good, and many occasions when it will slip rapidly from very good to dull or to agitated/hyperactive.

I know personally that it really frustrates me when my attention is not operating with the power it has at my best- it makes it look like I have a bad attitude.

I also know vary many ADHD people- hundreds, personally, and we all have these big fluctuations between our best attention and our worst, and are all confused and frustrated by them.

I have also learned that in the cultures of Asia attention has always been regarded as plastic and trainable, and that there are traditions that have been going for thousands of years that do just this.

I am well aware that orthodox treatments help, but do not improve my ADHD to my satisfaction, nor that of my patients.

I am also well aware that Western medicine has hit a wall with pharmaceutical approaches.

Very few new drugs are being developed, and most are unaffordable. Large groups of the population now take multiple medications but are not getting healthier.

The task of being a doctor is getting harder and harder due to the great number of interactions we have to handle in such an overmedicatied patient.
That medications only mask symptoms of a disease process in most cases is uncontroversial.

I know plenty of people who cannot tolerate medications, or have children who do not like the effects and refuse to take them. (Forcing your children to take medications against their will is overtly violent and a breach of their human rights. It is a great way have them leave you as soon as they reach adulthood, and leave you to grow old and die alone-- this happens----very often).

The evidence of positive neuroplastic change with mindfulness training and with some forms of physical training is now hard, accepted science. Neurobiofeedback now also has level 1 evidence for producing permanent improvement of ADHD symptoms.


Why is it identification with the research as is and not identification with all these alternatives.

Because what you call "the research as it is" is a tiny, biased, sample of the total research available relevant to the problem of ADHD.
The research that we have about the epidemiology of ADHD gives us clear cut data about the outcomes of untreated ADHD, but the genetic- molecular- dopamine "theory" of ADHD is actually a logically unjustifiable extension from that research and ignores many elements of the data deriving from the epidemiological research.

These inconsistencies are so bad that the overwhelming majority of psychiatrists and other doctors in Australia refuse to believe that ADHD exists. As of tomorrow, when I reume work after a long period of illness (neurological damage to my brainstem from the old neck injury) there will be only 3 family physicians who have a formal interest in ADHD in my home town of 4 million people.

There are repeated calls in some elements f the media for stimulant prescribing to be banned in Australia.

Diagnosing, advocating for and treating ADHD patients with stimulants in Australia attracts unwelcome attention from powerful interest groups at the very top of professorial psychiatry units and within the college of psychiatry and the Medical Board. It can be a career limiting move for many doctors, and has forced many to be driven out of practice. One of the reasons is that those "conventional models" that you seem to think I should adhere to are so flawed that they are virtualy laughed out of town by the majority of doctors outside the charmed circle of ADHD believers.

ADHD is a real and valid syndrome, with serious consequences, and comprehensive treatment can be life transforming. I have benefitted from treatment, and I want to do my bit to make good treatment more accessable.Part of good treatment is individualising it to each different person complaining of attention difficulties.


Are you suggesting that these alternatives with much less evidence do not or cannot lead to identification with them? Why couch this in what appears to be self congratulatory language?
Go back over my posts over all these years.
You will see an enormous number of links to a great range of evidence posted.

Do your homework, and you will find that material like Schore and Panksepp's work on attachment, Damasio's neurological theories, Prof Porges Polyvagal Theory, and the science behind mindfulness, neuroplasticity, and electromedicine is all solid with a long trail of published work in peer reviewed journals. I could grow old and die before I finished typing all that out.

You will see many posters complaining about this and finding reasons to avoid considering the evidence or excuses to assume that the evidence is invalid. I have only ever seen a few challengers who can take the evidence on and test it- or who have even shown any sign of having gone into any of the source material in any depth. You will see a great many thanks for those posts of mine as well.

Actually this process of presenting all this material here over so many years has been useful in that it has really honed my ability to argue tightly, and has helped me prepare to do battle ina more open public arena with some of the more powerful but rigid people who re holding back ADHD treatment in Australia, andI have been able to do it more orless incognito.

Secondly you will see a progressing trend to tighter language and scripting, and diminishing tendency to get irritated and hostile when confronted with silly responses, some of which have been so absurd as to be insulting.
That is actually not a bad marker of an overall improvement. That has happened at a time of great personal challenge and upheaval and while I have been dealing with a chronic pain syndrome. Five years I was declining so fast that I thought I would have to stop working and go on disability insurance for the rest of my life.

You need to be aware that in drawing attention to this improvement I am NOT saying "how good I am, look at me", I am saying- I have ADHD, and I am actually getting real improvements in my life as a result of following the combination of my own judgement and my clinical training.

I hope that that sets an example that might give some hope to others with ADHD.

Yes ADHD exists, yes it is damaging, but once identified it is possible to move from being stuck to making progress. With time, and persistence, the improvements become exponential.

As I have said, I have had a bad 2 years- I have been off on extended sick leave, and my marriage has broken up.

However- my old impulsivity and irritability has diminished vastly.
I have never had such social ease. I don't tune out of conversations the way I used to, or go off on tangents that confuse others (except when in idea generating mode), and I find it much easier to make friends than I have in the past. Tomorrow I start what looks like the dream job- which will offer opportunities for research, support with publishing a book on this model, and might just give me achance to give talks on ADHD that will help more doctors become confident with diagnosing and treating it.

I would really like it if by standing up and saying my piece, I could get across to more people that ADHD is not some sort of terrible life sentence,

-if I could encourage more people to be confident to come forward for diagnosis and to be less fearful about using stimulants.
(I am still using them off and on).

- if I could encourage more people with ADHD to move away from the often terrible self esteem that we have and to have confidence in our own judgement. (Judgement, will, and decision making areall skills that improve with practice too).

- if I could encourage more people with ADHD to look at their lives and notice all the things we do well already.

- and if I could inspire more doctors and other health care professionals to understand that regardless of diagnostic label, that learning to help our patients work with their attention and emotional stability is providing an intervention that is foundational to their well being.

Now-- if I am to succeed in doing that, and having a wider effect then I am going to have to learn a little showmanship.I am not egotistical, but I am confident that I have what it takes to make a substantial contribution in the above areas.

It might surprise you to know that most of my life I have been on the shy and self effacing side. The ADHD produced unpredictable results- so for most of my life I have stayed silent, even when I have been sure that the dominant ways of thinking are wrong (and they are--- we, as a species will go extinct if we do not wake up soon).

So- stepping out of that persona is a very big change for me-- and sometimes I can get carried away with a good line of rhetoric (being brought up on Monty Python might be a risk factor for that).

You and I have had this discussion many times Ginniebean, and I am really sorry that I have not been able to get the message across as to my motivation in presenting myself in such an upfront way. However, I have tried enough times to do so, and I will not respond again to any repetitions of this theme.

ginniebean
12-23-13, 12:31 AM
Posted by Claudia M Gold November 27, 2013 01:51 PM
When the American Academy of Pediatrics changed the guidelines for ADHD to expand age of diagnosis to include children from age 4-18 (from 6-12), that the number of cases would rise was, by definition, inevitable. Speaking at an international child psychiatry conference with a working title: “The ADHD Diagnosis : a Deconstruction from Developmental, Psychoanalytic, Infant Mental Health and Neuropsychiatric Perspectives, ” Dr. Claudia Gold provided vital insights into determining the varied mechanisms contributing to the symptoms of ADHD as well as offering non-pharmacological alternatives. Thus she states, ” ‘ADHD’, used as a primary diagnosis, has no etiologic significance, is conceptually and diagnostically distracting, leads to a paucity of thinking about a patient’s early developmental history and trauma, and is therapeutically misleading. I hope that there will be a large scale movement to “deconstruct” the ‘ADHD’ diagnosis. In essence deconstructing the diagnosis means eliminating the diagnosis. Instead we would understand and treat the multiple parts that make up what is now called ADHD. Such a process would result in effective early intervention and prevention.


“According to Dr Levinson, “Dr Gold's ADHD concepts and their clinical implementation in young children are exceptional and brilliantly stated. I had proposed similar concepts in my book “Total concentration,” albeit with some differences. At the time I proposed subdividing Concentration Disorders or ADHD into 4-5 diverse and often overlapping etiological categories. And then dissecting their Realistic, Traumatic, Neurotic, Neurophysiological cerebellar-vestibular and Cerebral origins or mechanisms. And then treating each of the contributing mechanisms selectively, rather than viewing this composite syndrome as having only one cause and one corresponding treatment. ”


Here is what I was objecting to. This is not complimentary medicine, this is not adunctive treatment this is an all out call for an assault on the ADHD diagnosis. Elimination of the diagnosis.


And you're saying no one is denying adhd as a syndrome. How exactly are you reading the above? I have said for two years this has been at the root of what's happening. That all these alternative etiological discussion with presentation of various possible alternative treatments is about the elimination of ADHD as a diagnosis.

I have for two years been saying that all of this attacks on the etiology of adhd as as it's base an attack on the diagnosis itself. It's elimination. I have been told I'm over-reacting, I don't understand, I am not well read enough, I'm exaggerating, and furthermore when I've pointed out that medication treatment and disability status that allows people with adhd to go to schools is being undermined by these attacks I'm fear mongering.

Now it's being said point blank and I bolded it.

I would respond to the rest of the post but I just feel like I wasn't understood and you felt personally attacked, even tho I have pointed out the rhetoric embedded within the alternative industry that I also saw being utilized in your post. I'd rather not distract from this MAIN point.

daveddd
12-23-13, 09:17 AM
i don't get this

depression and anxiety (as well as probably everything in the dsm) are symptom groupings

its very well known that both issues can stem from different reasons

adhd is a symptom group, its issues clearly stem from different reasons


why can't symptoms be treated AND it be accepted that there is different etiologies

are the people "in charge" really this black and white?

ginniebean
12-23-13, 10:16 AM
Because ADHD is the poster child of the anti-psychiatry movement, some extreme factions of the libertarian movement, and there is much of anti-psychiatry rhetoric that has seeped into the wellness movement.

I accept there are very likely multiple etiologies. I don't even have a problem if people want to try alternatives. What I'm seeing is the language used by the alternative wellness movement and other groups to dismantle the condition known as adhd.

KD says no one is saying adhd doesn't exist. Well, actually they are, it's stated above.

OR, explain to me how this isn't true.

daveddd
12-23-13, 10:32 AM
i honestly feel like its stating the obvious

as currently constructed in the DSM, ADHD should not be a primary dx

Barkley has stated several times that the DSM symptoms are secondary to another problem, the NIMH wants to go to symptom based treatment



I think i may be looking at it from a different view, Im actually interested in the underlying cause of adhd and think it would Improve treatment

You feel it would have an effect on getting disability and treatment?

i haven't been discriminated against in a way that would make me feel that way, stepping back though i could understand that people have

ginniebean
12-23-13, 10:38 AM
Yes, if we eliminate the diagnosis it would have an effect on getting disability and treatment because then what would we be getting treatment for? 5 or 6 other things not recognized by agencies and institutions as disabling conditions?

KD points out there is a strong anti-med current even in professional circles of allopathy.

Maybe I don't understand and if so, I'd like help understanding.

daveddd
12-23-13, 10:43 AM
i would hope that doctors would not stop treating the symptoms until these other etiologies were well recognized, and only when a different method of treatment (or addition, meds, no meds, whatever) is proven to increase the quality of life more than current treatments

i suppose I'm being naive?

Amtram
12-23-13, 10:49 AM
The etiology of many conditions is still in question, and that's not confined to ADHD or even to psychiatric conditions. Not knowing what has caused a condition does not negate its existence. Its existence is confirmed by a demonstration that a specific set of symptoms present consistently among groups of individuals - and that these symptoms are different from other conditions, making this particular condition one that needs to be examined separately.

To my knowledge, out of the hundreds of different cancers out there, only mesothelioma and devil facial tumor disease have a known, established cause and effect. It would be foolish of us to decide that all the other cancers don't exist.

Knowing how a condition comes to be in the first place is important for prevention, diagnosis, and treatment - but we discover these conditions because people present with sets of symptoms. Diagnosis always begins with symptomological evaluation, regardless of whether or not we have established causation. In the cases of disease in which we have accurate tests to diagnose, those diagnostic tests follow the observation of symptoms and questioning patients about other possibly related symptoms.

Because we do know that symptoms exist, and it's comparatively easy to look for treatments (of all kinds, not just pharmaceutical) that relieve symptoms based on knowledge of what has worked on similar symptoms of other conditions, there's no good reason not to look for ways to alleviate symptoms. Delaying treatments that have shown positive results because we don't yet know what causes those symptoms is ludicrously inhumane.

Looking for causation is a much more arduous path. Even if it's a condition that's known to be caused by a pathogen, discovering that pathogen is only the first step towards diagnosis, and may have no impact on treatment. We have viruses and bacteria that have evolved to survive, and some that evolve rapidly even inside a single host. Look at HIV. Look at MRSA and necrotizing fasciitis. Knowing the etiology has done more for diagnosis than anything else. In these and many others, treating symptoms is still the best medicine we have.

When it comes to a condition that is complex and/or has no definitive outside cause, the time difference between being able to diagnose and treat symptoms and being able to diagnose, test for confirmation, and provide a treatment specific to that condition is going to be huge. Sometimes research into what works on the symptoms will help move research on etiology forward a bit. Sometimes it will be genetic research that finds a clue. Whatever it is, research on causation takes a lot more time.

Realistically, you cannot build a model of causation simply upon symptoms or what relieves them. If we're fortunate, as I said above, treatments that help with symptoms may offer some guidance in the discovery of causation. They can help guide large-scale, double blinded studies with various control arms that show the most efficacious treatments, and that can sometimes indicate what hypothesis of causation would more likely yield usable data. But symptom relief alone does not tell us what causes something. Practitioners' reports of what relieves symptoms in their patients tells us even less.

When those practitioners narrow down a complex condition to a simple cause, and that simple cause can be treated using their preferred modality, and their proof is their own reports of success, it does little to help us discover anything about a condition. Complex problems do not have simple solutions.

daveddd
12-23-13, 10:52 AM
i don't know

i don't see mental illness being anything like cancer or a virus

ginniebean
12-23-13, 10:53 AM
Well, I don't know, maybe KD can illuminate if we're left with good will and hope.

daveddd
12-23-13, 10:55 AM
i suppose it would be nice for people who can't tolerate stimulants or build tolerance easy

ginniebean
12-23-13, 10:57 AM
i don't know

i don't see mental illness being anything like cancer or a virus

At one time alzheimers and seizures were considered mental illness.

Amtram
12-23-13, 10:59 AM
Or demonic possession.

ginniebean
12-23-13, 11:03 AM
i suppose it would be nice for people who can't tolerate stimulants or build tolerance easy

I can't tolerate stimulants. I've tried a lot of things and each day you can hear me several times "where are my keys!!" amongst my many other oopses.

daveddd
12-23-13, 11:04 AM
i bought a key hook, changed my life;)

see alternative treatments can work

ginniebean
12-23-13, 11:07 AM
9x out of 10 I lose them in my purse, or pocket. And yes, Key hooks are awesome :)

daveddd
12-23-13, 11:08 AM
Or demonic possession.

i can do extremes too

homosexuality was once thought by the dsm to be an incurable and commitable brain disease

Amtram
12-23-13, 08:54 PM
Well, it's still incurable!

dvdnvwls
12-23-13, 10:29 PM
Since we don't know the cause of ADHD, and since knowing the cause of ADHD would help to treat it more effectively, we should look for the cause. That's obvious and non-controversial.

There is a massive leap being taken, from there to adopting as "The Cause of ADHD" every plausible hypothesis that comes along.

Kunga Dorji
12-24-13, 02:28 AM
I can't tolerate stimulants. I've tried a lot of things and each day you can hear me several times "where are my keys!!" amongst my many other oopses.


Rule 1 with keys-- when you put them down say "I am putting down my keys on the bench (or whatever)- and watch as you place them.
That puts them squarely in the centre of your macular vision- the centre of ones attention usually.

Rule 2- if you can't find them DONT PANIC
pause
then the info that DID go in when you followed Rule 1 will float to the surface.

Rule 3-- Rule 1 is the master rule-- keep doing it for keys and for everything else until it becomes second nature.

This will save you a lot of trouble-- and it will be an "ADHD coaching tip" that will cross generalise to other situations without even having to think about it much.

That is much more useful than a whole book on ADHD coaching.

Kunga Dorji
12-24-13, 02:36 AM
That's interesting

So a back and forth relationship

The idea of linear causality helps to design experiments that are verifiable.

However in real life our health is governed by a series of interacting homeostatic loops.

In a less conscious animal (Why Zebra's don't get ulcers) these loops pretty much are self maintaining.

However- we have the very tricky problem that we can consciously override the key homeostatic loop in the autonomic nervous system, and what is worse, our self awareness can generate recursive loops of thinking and feeling that can get us spiralling into fatigue and depression, or out of control into obsessive worry or hypomania.

There are real potential advantages in being human- but it is a double edged sword. We all need to learn to handle that sword like a samurai.

Amtram
12-24-13, 11:03 AM
Linear causality yields a limited number of verifiable results in the life sciences, though.

Lunacie
12-24-13, 12:06 PM
The idea of linear causality helps to design experiments that are verifiable.

However in real life our health is governed by a series of interacting homeostatic loops.

In a less conscious animal (Why Zebra's don't get ulcers) these loops pretty much are self maintaining.

However- we have the very tricky problem that we can consciously override the key homeostatic loop in the autonomic nervous system, and what is worse, our self awareness can generate recursive loops of thinking and feeling that can get us spiralling into fatigue and depression, or out of control into obsessive worry or hypomania.

There are real potential advantages in being human- but it is a double edged sword. We all need to learn to handle that sword like a samurai.

Ulcers have nothing to do with stress or spicy foods. Zebras may not be prone
to the bacterial infection that causes some ulcers, and they don't take the
medications that may cause others.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/peptic-ulcer/DS00242

Amtram
12-24-13, 04:29 PM
Sapolsky's book "Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers" was published in 1998. H. Pylori was being studied as a cause of ulcers and gastritis and was confirmed in 1994. Even so, this was not widely accepted for some time until Dr. Barry Marshall and Dr. Robin Warren were awarded the Nobel Prize for Medicine in 2005.

The bacterium has been found in many domesticated and lab animals with ulcers and gastritis, so it's not inconceivable that wild animals could be susceptible to it as well. However, I doubt there's much research value in capturing wild zebras and doing endoscopies and colonoscopies simply to find if any of them have ulcers, and if those ulcers are populated by h. pylori.

Sapolsky has some interesting ideas, and real scientific cred, but sometimes uses anecdotes and analogies that don't necessarily apply across species the way he presents them. As metaphors, they get certain ideas across, but they don't always have the full weight of evidence behind them. When it comes to neuroendocrinology and neurobehavioral research in primates, he's definitely got the chops. It's just that we can't automatically assume that what applies in animals (even higher level primates) can be applied to humans as well.

Kunga Dorji
12-24-13, 08:14 PM
Since we don't know the cause of ADHD, and since knowing the cause of ADHD would help to treat it more effectively, we should look for the cause. That's obvious and non-controversial.

There is a massive leap being taken, from there to adopting as "The Cause of ADHD" every plausible hypothesis that comes along.

I'm sorry,
but if you think that is what is being said, then you have not been paying attention!

First and foremost I am proposing the formal question "What are the causes and conditions of good attention?"

Secondly, I am proposing that each of us considers our day to day existence and notices the many times when we do pay attention effectively. There are many highly successful ADHD individuals, up to and including Ned Hallowell and John Ratey. They have learned how to work with their attention style (Hallowell can't tolerate medications)-- so WHY can't we, as individuals, follow their example?

I am certainly NOT proposing that any one thing is THE CAUSE of ADHD.

In fact the basic proposition of ADHD having one cause is utterly flawed.

If you understand the neurology of attention, you will understand that attention is a highly complex process, deeply interlinked with both movement and motion.

Much of our attention is directed towards either potentially promising or threatening objects/agents with our environment and our executive function is devoted to inhibiting movement which is not contextually profitable to the survival and flourishing of our physical body- hence the link between attention/executive function and movement.

Emotion is a little more subtle, but it consists of a compound of cognitions and physical sensations. It is primarily a right brain phenomenon based on subconscious appraisal of multiple stimuli simultaneously.
The root of the word emotion (motere) refers to movement-- movement towards a promising item/being or away from a threatening one.

So attention involves the vestibular system, the cerebellum, the basal ganglia, the thalamus, the prefrontal cortex, oculomotor control (when you attend to something it is usual to look at it) eye hand co-ordination, and all the motor systems that stabilise our body to alow stable gaze.

Our conscious attention can be hijacked by a conscious or subconscious emotional response- and the feedback between thought and the physical stress response can leave us trapped in feedback loops with our attention locked onto the one thing.

Additionally, a prolonged stress response will produce metabolic and immune changes that degrade attention.

In addition to that, the nervous system is encased in the skull and spine-and alterations in posture or boney alignment cannot not have an impact upon attention.

Given all that complexity to propose a unitary cause of ADHD would be insightless to say the least.

ADHD is a phenotype-not a genotype- but if a situation arises that causes a problem in regulating attention-- the outcome will look very much the same
regardless of the set of gene-environment- consciousness interactions that drive the ADHD in any one individual.

If you learn mindfulness and stick with it, you will ultimately develop clear enough vision to see the causes of attention, emotion and alertness regulation that are relevant to you- at the same time as you actally rewire your brain to improe any issues with the circuitry.

daveddd
01-01-14, 01:44 PM
kunga,

am i on the right track

adhd - nervous system dysregulation (generic) leading to emotional dysregulation or over reactivity (emotions being neurological )

that can be a diathesis or genotype leading to different phenotypes? also do you think that same genotype can lead to phenotypes in other diagnostic mental health categories (ei aspergers, borderline , etc)

now we are looking here, at possible causes for the genotype ?

Kunga Dorji
01-02-14, 07:19 AM
kunga,

am i on the right track

adhd - nervous system dysregulation (generic) leading to emotional dysregulation or over reactivity (emotions being neurological )

that can be a diathesis or genotype leading to different phenotypes? also do you think that same genotype can lead to phenotypes in other diagnostic mental health categories (ei aspergers, borderline , etc)

now we are looking here, at possible causes for the genotype ?


Broadly yes.
What I am arguing is that ADHD can be caused by
1)Any situation that causes a problem in attention and self regulation of emotion and alertness/processing speed in early childhood.

2) That usually it will require at least two separate causes of impaired self regulation to actually cause ADHD.

3) That the neurological mechanisms involved in regulation of attention, emotion, alertness, balance and co-ordination are so tightly interwoven that a defect in any one of these systems will impact upon the other.
(This is reflected in the "average differences in ADHD brains" involving basal ganglia, cerebellum and thalamus as well as frontal lobes, and is reflective of current awareness of the primacy of neuronal feedback loops rather than just one neurotransmitter involved in just one part of the loop).

4) That the primary failure of attentional stability will slow the experience dependent neuroplastic development of the brain-- hence the finding of the late maturation of brains in ADHD.

5) That the issues with attention and emotional instability will cause such profound chaos in a person's life that unless they are lucky, the feedback loops created by the consequences of the inattentive behaviour will trap the ADHD individual in a loop of stress and low self esteem that may maintain the problem for the rest of the person's life.

6) And finally-- on the good side- a late maturing brain is not such a bad thing-- at 52-- my brain is still growing-- I am sure ( or at least maybe my head is getting bigger:cool:)

K-Funk
01-15-14, 03:36 PM
5) That the issues with attention and emotional instability will cause such profound chaos in a person's life that unless they are lucky, the feedback loops created by the consequences of the inattentive behaviour will trap the ADHD individual in a loop of stress and low self esteem that may maintain the problem for the rest of the person's life.

THIS is what I desperately want to break free from. I have tried stimulants, benzodiazepines, SSRIs, CBT, self help books etc but I STILL got fired from my job and now life is just one giant stress ball where I'm literally sitting there sweating and feel like I'm getting crushed in a vice (very visceral sensation) every second of every day. I was born 3 months early because my mother had preeclampsia and would have died had I not been taken out.

So, very likely my issues stem from a traumatic prenatal event along with a genetic predisposition for attention and emotional regulation issues. At age 36, I'm still waiting to "turn the corner" with regard to improvement. I don't know if a deconstruction of ADHD is a check in the positive or in negative column but I suppose anything that helps us unravel this all consuming neurobiological mess of a condition is a step in the right direction.

Kunga Dorji
01-16-14, 10:12 AM
THIS is what I desperately want to break free from. I have tried stimulants, benzodiazepines, SSRIs, CBT, self help books etc but I STILL got fired from my job and now life is just one giant stress ball where I'm literally sitting there sweating and feel like I'm getting crushed in a vice (very visceral sensation) every second of every day. I was born 3 months early because my mother had preeclampsia and would have died had I not been taken out.

So, very likely my issues stem from a traumatic prenatal event along with a genetic predisposition for attention and emotional regulation issues. At age 36, I'm still waiting to "turn the corner" with regard to improvement. I don't know if a deconstruction of ADHD is a check in the positive or in negative column but I suppose anything that helps us unravel this all consuming neurobiological mess of a condition is a step in the right direction.

Gabor Mate is right-- ADHD is a neurodevelopmental disorder-involving a delay in neurological development-- NOT an arrest in it.
Examine the situation closely enough and the barriers to ongoing neurological development will become obvious- and neurological development will resume- regardless of the delay.

Lunacie
01-16-14, 01:00 PM
Gabor Mate is right-- ADHD is a neurodevelopmental disorder-involving a delay in neurological development-- NOT an arrest in it.
Examine the situation closely enough and the barriers to ongoing neurological development will become obvious- and neurological development will resume- regardless of the delay.

In my experience, the neurological development never catches up with what it
should have been, what NT's experience.

mildadhd
01-17-14, 01:45 AM
In my experience, the neurological development never catches up with what it
should have been, what NT's experience.

Is that why ADDers look younger?



Peripherals

mildadhd
01-17-14, 02:12 AM
Dean is a thin, edgy figure with brimming-over energy that keeps him physically in motion even when he's sitting or standing.

He speaks rapidly, leaping from one topic to another, interrupting himself only to chuckle at his own witticisms.

He's fifty years old, but like many people with ADD, looks younger that his age.

He knows I've also been diagnosed with Attention Deficit Disorder and laughs uproariously when I tell him my theory that we ADD folk look young because all the time we spend tuning out doesn't add to our years



Gabor Mate M.D., "In The Realm Of Hungry Ghosts", P 95





i!i

mildadhd
01-17-14, 03:04 AM
(p 141-142) PEOPLE OFTEN ASK IF ONE CAN "grow out" of attention deficit disorder--a good question, for healing is a matter of growth.

And the answer is yes.

It is not curing that ADD children need: they need help to grow.

What is required is not a change in parenting techniques but a change in parenting attitudes, based on a deeper understanding of the child.

The adult with attention deficit disorder needs also to gain deeper understanding of herself, to undertake the task we will later describe as self-parenting.

The outlook is positive for the healing process in attention deficit disorder.

This kind of optimism is typified by Yogi Berra's remark, much beloved by sportscasters: it ain't over till it's over.

Nowhere is this more true than in life history of the human brain and human personality.

We have seen that experience has great influence on the circuitry of the brain, and also that chemical changes--for better or for worse--are affected by the environment.

If the wiring and chemistry of the brain are not rigidly set by heredity, neither are they unalterably fixed in early childhood.

The challenge of healing later in life is identical to looking at causation in infancy.

What conditions promote development?

What conditions hinder it?...





...(p 144)The strength of synapses is influenced by many factors, including the frequency of their use or disuse, or the composition of body chemistry from one situation to the next.

Circuits are also weakened or enhanced by other circuits that may interfere with their functions or assist them.

We see this in attention deficit disorder when the same child is able to attend to a subject in one type of environment but is unable to concentrate on the same topic in another.

This situationality of ADD reflects the input of emotions, which play a powerful role in attention.


As we know, in ADD the cortex does not exercise firm enough control over the arousal and emotion-generating centers in the lower brain areas.

Dr. Benes points out that important linkages between the cortex and these emotional centers continue to mature "as late as the sixth decade....[This] suggests that human behavior may involve, at least in part, a progressive integration of cognition with emotion."

Intergration of cognition with emotion--the melding of what we know with what we feel--is the very integration the healing process in ADD requires.

Lack of it underlies the fragmentation of the ADD mind.






Gabor Mate M.D., "Scattered", Unconditional Positive Regard", p 141-142, 144





i!i

daveddd
01-17-14, 07:38 AM
In my experience, the neurological development never catches up with what it
should have been, what NT's experience.

no it won't, not ons it own

because it isn't a purely physical delay of development

we stay at the lower end of the "self regulation" continuum

in order for continued development in this area it takes practice and training in the cognitive area of self regulation

meadd823
01-17-14, 02:50 PM
In my experience, the neurological development never catches up with what it
should have been, what NT's experience.


This view may indeed be helpful to you but for me it means death of the worst kind - acceptance that I am as I should be.

I won't mention the fact that it is illogical to believe that I have clue one as to what NTer experience and do not experience simply because of the absence or presence of the traits that clinically generate the label ADHD - I have found experience is a personal thing irregardless of ADHD or the lack thereof

I learned a while back that all self loathing stems from unrealistic expectations. It is unrealistic for me to expect myself to be some thing I can never be nor do I intend to waste any more of my life time feeling inferior. Feel inferior and I shall be just that inferior. Saying because I am ADHD I can never mature or be worthy of self acceptance is crap of the foulest odor

I am not NT nor will I ever be NT and I REFUSE to waste one more second of my life "shoulding" all over myself.

Screw what the rest of the world thinks I should be what most drives my personal behavior is what I think I am.

I am as I was designed to be weather I am a result of environmental effects, genetic predispositions or the interaction there of - I am all I have to work with in this life and personally I intend to make the best of it.

Lunacie
01-17-14, 03:55 PM
This view may indeed be helpful to you but for me it means death of the worst kind - acceptance that I am as I should be.

I won't mention the fact that it is illogical to believe that I have clue one as to what NTer experience and do not experience simply because of the absence or presence of the traits that clinically generate the label ADHD - I have found experience is a personal thing irregardless of ADHD or the lack thereof

I learned a while back that all self loathing stems from unrealistic expectations. It is unrealistic for me to expect myself to be some thing I can never be nor do I intend to waste any more of my life time feeling inferior. Feel inferior and I shall be just that inferior. Saying because I am ADHD I can never mature or be worthy of self acceptance is crap of the foulest odor

I am not NT nor will I ever be NT and I REFUSE to waste one more second of my life "shoulding" all over myself.

Screw what the rest of the world thinks I should be what most drives my personal behavior is what I think I am.

I am as I was designed to be weather I am a result of environmental effects, genetic predispositions or the interaction there of - I am all I have to work with in this life and personally I intend to make the best of it.

You seem to have totally misinterpreted what I wrote.

Although I do accept myself as I am - that much you got right.

I refuse to feel inferior because I can't change something.

I can change my hair color or my weight. I cannot change that I have ADHD.

I can make the traits worse (stress, no sleep, bad diet)

or I can make them better (lo stress, good sleep, good diet, meds, good habits).

I cannot cure my ADHD and I do not feel inferior because I can't do that.

Saying because I am ADHD I can never mature or be worthy of self acceptance is crap of the foulest odor

I agree. It certainly would be crap to say that. I didn't say that.

I didn't say that we don't keep developing all our lives,

I said we cannot catch up to where we would have been developmentally if we didn't have ADHD.

If you disagree with that, fine with me. Just disagree with what I actually said.
.

Kunga Dorji
01-17-14, 10:37 PM
In my experience, the neurological development never catches up with what it
should have been, what NT's experience.

That, of course is "anecdotal evidence"- and unscientific.

Equally, there may be issues of sample bias:

Some very successful ADDers
Dr Ed Hallowell
Dr John Ratey
Dr Thomas E Brown
Nancy Ratey
Dr Gabor Mate
(with any luck-- coming soon -- me too :D).
However- all the successful ones I listed above have become successful _BECAUSE of their ADHD- not in spite of it.

There are many more such examples.

I have just heard from a reliable source that our Australian Rules Football teams like to include one or two ADHD players- as they break up the play and make it faster and more fluid.

Philosophically- the virtue of having to face adversity has been known since ancient times:

Ref Seneca the Elder:

Fire is the test of gold, adversity of strong men.
Brave men rejoice in adversity, just as brave soldiers triumph in war.


In other words, "What does not kill you makes you stronger".

That is old news.
It is also old news that if we see ourselves as weak and incurable, then we are not going to be motivated to do anything to better ourselves.

So- I am always extremely cautious about painting too gloomy a picture of the ADHD situation-- there is enormous danger off us "self hypnotising" into an unbreakable gloom.

Certainly- one can be insightlessly positive-- but I have just been through a hellish marriage breakup, a fight with the imbeciles in the local Medical Paactitioner's Board, and two years of torment with severe low back and mid chest pain- and despite this-- my attention and self regulation is better than it ever was, and I have just walked into the dream job.

That could not have happened if I allowed myself to indulge in the kind of thinking that says I "can never catch up with the neurotypical.


Incidentally, another great quote from Seneca the Elder highly relevant to the ADHD debate:


Disease is not of the body, but of the place.


I have to thank you Lunacie- you led me to that one :)

Kunga Dorji
01-17-14, 10:46 PM
This view may indeed be helpful to you but for me it means death of the worst kind - acceptance that I am as I should be.

I won't mention the fact that it is illogical to believe that I have clue one as to what NTer experience and do not experience simply because of the absence or presence of the traits that clinically generate the label ADHD - I have found experience is a personal thing irregardless of ADHD or the lack thereof

I learned a while back that all self loathing stems from unrealistic expectations. It is unrealistic for me to expect myself to be some thing I can never be nor do I intend to waste any more of my life time feeling inferior. Feel inferior and I shall be just that inferior. Saying because I am ADHD I can never mature or be worthy of self acceptance is crap of the foulest odor

I am not NT nor will I ever be NT and I REFUSE to waste one more second of my life "shoulding" all over myself.

Screw what the rest of the world thinks I should be what most drives my personal behavior is what I think I am.

I am as I was designed to be weather I am a result of environmental effects, genetic predispositions or the interaction there of - I am all I have to work with in this life and personally I intend to make the best of it.

Honestly- I pity the NT, and avoid wherever possible- except when I want them to do some paperwork for me.

Our late developing brains are an immense advantage if (and only if) we do not get overwhelmed by the consequences of earlier inattentive behaviour.

The early maturing NT sort of gets locked into a mindset called "The Consensus Trance".

They settle in and become invested in the status quo, they are afraid of risking the act of independent thinking, and they can become horribly convention bound and mindlessly conservative. I had dinner with one two nights ago- and am still recovering from the experience.

Our late neurological development means that our brains are still much more able to grow at a point where we have accumulated much more experience than the average individual who marries, parents and settles into a set role in society much earlier.

It is an asset.

Lunacie
01-17-14, 11:14 PM
That, of course is "anecdotal evidence"- and unscientific.

Equally, there may be issues of sample bias:

Some very successful ADDers
Dr Ed Hallowell
Dr John Ratey
Dr Thomas E Brown
Nancy Ratey
Dr Gabor Mate
(with any luck-- coming soon -- me too :D).
However- all the successful ones I listed above have become successful _BECAUSE of their ADHD- not in spite of it.

There are many more such examples.

I have just heard from a reliable source that our Australian Rules Football teams like to include one or two ADHD players- as they break up the play and make it faster and more fluid.

Philosophically- the virtue of having to face adversity has been known since ancient times:

Ref Seneca the Elder:


In other words, "What does not kill you makes you stronger".

That is old news.
It is also old news that if we see ourselves as weak and incurable, then we are not going to be motivated to do anything to better ourselves.

So- I am always extremely cautious about painting too gloomy a picture of the ADHD situation-- there is enormous danger off us "self hypnotising" into an unbreakable gloom.

Certainly- one can be insightlessly positive-- but I have just been through a hellish marriage breakup, a fight with the imbeciles in the local Medical Paactitioner's Board, and two years of torment with severe low back and mid chest pain- and despite this-- my attention and self regulation is better than it ever was, and I have just walked into the dream job.

That could not have happened if I allowed myself to indulge in the kind of thinking that says I "can never catch up with the neurotypical.


Incidentally, another great quote from Seneca the Elder highly relevant to the ADHD debate:



I have to thank you Lunacie- you led me to that one :)

Again I was misunderstood. :(

Of course people with ADHD can be successful, but it may take them longer.

That doesn't make them weak. :umm1:

If 20 people are running a race, there will be a few who make it over the finish line
much sooner, while there are some stragglers who finish last.

They can't catch up with the faster runners, but they can finish the race, eh?
That isn't defeatist thinking, that's realistic thinking.


At this point in time I know of no cure for ADHD, therefore it is "incurable."


You say that the people you listed became successful BECAUSE of having ADHD.

What is your basis for saying that?
.

Kunga Dorji
01-17-14, 11:41 PM
Again I was misunderstood. :(

Of course people with ADHD can be successful, but it may take them longer.

That doesn't make them weak. :umm1:

If 20 people are running a race, there will be a few who make it over the finish line
much sooner, while there are some stragglers who finish last.

They can't catch up with the faster runners, but they can finish the race, eh?


What is the race?
Who gets to set the rules - and who gets to define the winner?
In our culture- it is usually "He who dies with the most toys".

As for taking longer-- so what?
Have you ever heard of the hare and the tortoise?
Sometimes harvesting the information required to come to a dazzling finish takes a little while!

I disagree that there is any one race, and any one outcome that suits all people.
I am working at my own karma- and I see the goals that many others get entangled in as rather odd.

Certainly some ADDers have terrible life outcomes- but the odds of that happening can only be reduced by awareness that while ADHD can predispose to bad life outcomes, it can also offer unique opportunities.

If one believes there is no hope- then one is doomed.
No hope- no motivation to try anything.



At this point in time I know of no cure for ADHD, therefore it is "incurable."


1) As per all other DSM "diagnoses" ADHD is a syndrome.
You can't cure a syndrome.
The very idea that you can shows a flaw in logical thinking.
2) Your statement is predicated upon the assumption that what you know of ADHD is all that there is to know.
That is a big claim.

ADHD is defined as a cluster of symptoms and behaviours.
What one can do is ameliorate symptoms.
Mine are sufficiently ameliorated for me to be accepted as a Buddhist meditation teacher and a provider of a mindfulness based psychotherapy.
In other words- I have become a paid expert on the subject of refining attention, and am recognised because I have shown that I embody the skills that I am teaching well enough to reflect well upon the institutions and individuals that bestowed them

I actually dislike putting this down in writing as it sounds boastful- but it is a true statement, and other ADDer need to know this, as they need to know that this is an achievable goal.


You say that the people you listed became successful BECAUSE of having ADHD.

What is your basis for saying that?
.All those individuals are people who have been diagnosed with ADHD and gone on to make successful and profitable careers out of applying their inside knowledge of ADHD to the purpose of helping other people with ADHD and getting paid for it.

While they work they are doing something they love, they are doing it out of a genuine concern for other people with ADHD, and they are all getting well remunerated.

If they did not have ADHD- they would not have the inside knowledge to be so good at what they do.

Thankyou for giving me the opportunity to expand on that point. I was afraid that some readers might have missed it.

Lunacie
01-18-14, 12:18 AM
What is the race?
Who gets to set the rules - and who gets to define the winner?
In our culture- it is usually "He who dies with the most toys".

As for taking longer-- so what?
Have you ever heard of the hare and the tortoise?
Sometimes harvesting the information required to come to a dazzling finish takes a little while!

I disagree that there is any one race, and any one outcome that suits all people.
I am working at my own karma- and I see the goals that many others get entangled in as rather odd.

I have no idea what you're arguing about. :scratch:

I thought I made it pretty clear that it doesn't matter who finishes the race first,
what matters is whether you finish the race (success) by doing your personal best.



Certainly some ADDers have terrible life outcomes- but the odds of that happening can only be reduced by awareness that while ADHD can predispose to bad life outcomes, it can also offer unique opportunities.

If one believes there is no hope- then one is doomed.
No hope- no motivation to try anything.

Again, no idea what you're arguing with here.
I said nothing about "having no hope - no motivation."



1) As per all other DSM "diagnoses" ADHD is a syndrome.
You can't cure a syndrome.
The very idea that you can shows a flaw in logical thinking.
2) Your statement is predicated upon the assumption that what you know of ADHD is all that there is to know.
That is a big claim.

Yes, it would be ... if I were making such a claim.
But you jumped from thinking to assumption to claim without any reason to flow from one to the next.

My statement wasn't a "claim,"
it was a personal opinion based on what scientific research tells us at this point in time.

Perhaps the problem in logical thinking is that you're having trouble understanding what I mean.



ADHD is defined as a cluster of symptoms and behaviours.
What one can do is ameliorate symptoms.
Mine are sufficiently ameliorated for me to be accepted as a Buddhist meditation teacher and a provider of a mindfulness based psychotherapy.
In other words- I have become a paid expert on the subject of refining attention, and am recognised because I have shown that I embody the skills that I am teaching well enough to reflect well upon the institutions and individuals that bestowed them

I actually dislike putting this down in writing as it sounds boastful- but it is a true statement, and other ADDer need to know this, as they need to know that this is an achievable goal.

All those individuals are people who have been diagnosed with ADHD and gone on to make successful and profitable careers out of applying their inside knowledge of ADHD to the purpose of helping other people with ADHD and getting paid for it.

While they work they are doing something they love, they are doing it out of a genuine concern for other people with ADHD, and they are all getting well remunerated.

If they did not have ADHD- they would not have the inside knowledge to be so good at what they do.

Thankyou for giving me the opportunity to expand on that point. I was afraid that some readers might have missed it.

I'm very happy that you have been able to accomplish all that you have done.

But I have not at any point in this thread said that it would impossible for anyone with ADHD to see such success.

meadd823
01-18-14, 12:32 AM
Certainly some ADDers have terrible life outcomes- but the odds of that happening can only be reduced by awareness that while ADHD can predispose to bad life outcomes, it can also offer unique opportunities.

If one believes there is no hope- then one is doomed.
No hope- no motivation to try anything.


This was my point and has been for a long time now . . . . while seeing ADHD solely as an impairment is not conducive to a productive out come for me personally, others seem to find a place of self forgiveness they other wise would not.

Naturally when it comes to perspectives mileage may vary.


Again, no idea what you're arguing with here.
I said nothing about "having no hope - no motivation."


You seem to have totally misinterpreted what I wrote.

If you are claiming you have been misunderstood than I certainly will not argue however I took this

In my experience, the neurological development never catches up with what it
should have been, what NT's experience.

the same way as Kunga Dorji did - If we misinterpreted you then a more productive approach would be a clarification worded differently as a way of attempting to be better understood. About all you did was tell me what you did not say which wasn't really very helpful

- I did not misunderstand on purpose, I do not think any one in this discussion would purposefully misunderstand another however these things do happen as do entirely opposite ways of seeing ADD.

What I find counter productive may be productive to others - nothing wrong with diversity - If we all saw things the exact same way what would we have to discuss?

IN reading your response I felt a hint of accusation, as if the misunderstanding was on purpose but I may have misread as I was trying to read through cat butt or misinterpretation your frustrated tone as being aimed at me. I am not the only thing in life that one has to be frustrated about.

Science can not determine what you can and can not do as an individual. Science can not tell any one that they would have achieved more had they not been born ADHD -

Science is about groups not individuals so taking stuff written about groups and applying it to myself as an individual is not logical to my personal way of thinking - If you so desire to apply what is said about a group you identify with based upon what some researcher some where decides to define as a group then I certainly will not stand in your way however I do not find this approach productive - wtf is so wrong with that?

I said we cannot catch up to where we would have been developmentally if we didn't have ADHD.

If you disagree with that, fine with me. Just disagree with what I actually said.

To say had I been NT instead of ADHD I would have been more successful, in my world view is denying that as you are as you were designed to be. I personally do not know of any other way of interpenetrating this but you think differently so it very well may not be your intended message.

For the record I am disagreeing with what you actually said, thus the use of the quote function.

Lunacie
01-18-14, 12:42 AM
This was my point and has been for a long time now . . . . while seeing ADHD as an impairment seeing it as solely as an impairment is not conducive to a productive out come for me personally

Naturally mileage may vary.

Hope for a cure? Hope for a neurotypical life?

Or hope for the ability to cope with this disorder and make the best life possible?

I think the last one is possible even when one sees ADHD as an impairment and nothing more.
.

meadd823
01-18-14, 01:26 AM
Honestly- I pity the NT, and avoid wherever possible- except when I want them to do some paperwork for me.

Our late developing brains are an immense advantage if (and only if) we do not get overwhelmed by the consequences of earlier inattentive behaviour.

The early maturing NT sort of gets locked into a mindset called "The Consensus Trance".

They settle in and become invested in the status quo, they are afraid of risking the act of independent thinking, and they can become horribly convention bound and mindlessly conservative. I had dinner with one two nights ago- and am still recovering from the experience.

Our late neurological development means that our brains are still much more able to grow at a point where we have accumulated much more experience than the average individual who marries, parents and settles into a set role in society much earlier.

It is an asset.

I do not feel NTers are all alike either just as we are diverse NTers are just as diverse as we are - Some are mindless blobs but so are some ADDers.

I understand grouping helps in many ways - we found each other by identifying with a group thus a group label

As our many misunderstanding and disagreements attest to the fact that even though we all may be ADD we are first and foremost individuals in our own right - I see NTers in the same manner = individuals in their own right.

My mom is a NTer yet she did not keep her thinking inside the box. She did not try to shove me into some one size fits all box either she accepted me as I was and taught me to extend that same acceptance toward others regardless of whether or not I actually agree or even understood their way of seeing the world

I must admit I am unsure by what you mean by conservative. I can tell by the context that you believe conservative not not be a good thing however to me there are many variations of "conservative" - morally conservative, financially conservative, politically conservative, verbally conservative or may be just flat out cheap - :rolleyes:

meadd823
01-18-14, 01:32 AM
Hope for a cure? Hope for a neurotypical life?

Or hope for the ability to cope with this disorder and make the best life possible?

I think the last one is possible even when one sees ADHD as an impairment and nothing more.
.

If ADD is an impairment and nothing more than that means I am an impairment and nothing more -I think this to be to root of our failure to understand each other

You have ADD,

I AM ADD -

I can not separate myself from my ADD any more than I can separate myself from my gender.

Kunga Dorji
01-18-14, 08:05 AM
But I have not at any point in this thread said that it would impossible for anyone with ADHD to see such success.


Thankyou for finally making that clear.

Kunga Dorji
01-18-14, 08:18 AM
I do not feel NTers are all alike either just as we are diverse NTers are just as diverse as we are - Some are mindless blobs but so are some ADDers.

I understand grouping helps in many ways - we found each other by identifying with a group thus a group label

As our many misunderstanding and disagreements attest to the fact that even though we all may be ADD we are first and foremost individuals in our own right - I see NTers in the same manner = individuals in their own right.

My mom is a NTer yet she did not keep her thinking inside the box. She did not try to shove me into some one size fits all box either she accepted me as I was and taught me to extend that same acceptance toward others regardless of whether or not I actually agree or even understood their way of seeing the world

I must admit I am unsure by what you mean by conservative. I can tell by the context that you believe conservative not not be a good thing however to me there are many variations of "conservative" - morally conservative, financially conservative, politically conservative, verbally conservative or may be just flat out cheap - :rolleyes:

Conservative-- afraid to think one's own thoughts. Relying on the opinions of the mass to be sure that one's own observation is right.
A basic extension of this is that the weight of accumulated opinion in our culture must be right-- just because so many people have thought the same thing.

A basic real life example of non conservative is a person who looks at a war that his nation has decided to engage in, and makes his own decision that that is not to be supported- that the only legitimate grounds for his own choice is his own discriminating intellect- not the weight of popular opinion.

The conservative always relies on the weight of popular opinion (compounded by the popular opinion of "the dead hand of the past"). The conservative never has the guts to make his own observations and his own decisions- because there is always someone out there who is better qualified to advise him of his own best interest.

Lunacie
01-18-14, 11:38 AM
If ADD is an impairment and nothing more than that means I am an impairment and nothing more -I think this to be to root of our failure to understand each other

You have ADD,

I AM ADD -

I can not separate myself from my ADD any more than I can separate myself from my gender.

To me, that's tunnel-vision, or wearing blinders. It's self-limiting.

I am many things, not just ADHD.

I don't separate any of them, they are all part of who I am.

I am MORE than ADHD.

Therefore I am MORE than an impairment.

I am a woman. I am overweight. I am smart. I am nearsighted. I am loving. I am ADHD.

And so much MORE.
.

Lunacie
01-18-14, 12:45 PM
Thankyou for finally making that clear.

I made it clear the first time as well. Thank you for finally understanding what I wrote.

Kunga Dorji
01-18-14, 10:05 PM
I have no idea what you're arguing about. :scratch:

Perhaps the problem in logical thinking is that you're having trouble understanding what I mean.



No - I do not think so.
The real issue is in the nature of words, and the way they limit and distort the reality we see.
Each word (other than minor ones like and/or/if but etc) is only a symbol of a much larger and more complex reality.
For instance if you think "tree" and I think "tree"- the mental image we each generate is guaranteed to be different.

So we can have an argument about certain things and terms and actually be using the same words but be arguing about different things.

This happens all the time- and is the source of most of the disputes and unhappiness in the world.

The Zen teacher Alan Watts is so lucid when he discusses this. He has a wonderful and often hilarious talk on this titled "What Is"-- it can be found on the website zencast.org

It gets much much worse though when one is dealing with a person who has realised "emptiness" or "interbeing"- not that I am claiming to be there yet- but I do get the drift.

Consider the simple word "Paper"-- what do you see when you think of that?

I know of a very interesting commentary on this subject that I will post if you are interested to see just where this question can lead us.

Kunga Dorji
01-19-14, 01:49 AM
If ADD is an impairment and nothing more than that means I am an impairment and nothing more -I think this to be to root of our failure to understand each other

You have ADD,

I AM ADD -

I can not separate myself from my ADD any more than I can separate myself from my gender.

You have hit on an interesting point here meadd-- it needs another thread.
I will call it "The Utility of Diagnostic labels in Mental Health"

Kunga Dorji
01-21-14, 05:04 PM
I'm very happy that you have been able to accomplish all that you have done.

But I have not at any point in this thread said that it would impossible for anyone with ADHD to see such success.


Its probably worth mentioning that those accomplishments have been accompanied by some major ADHD stuff ups- things tat I very much wish had not happened.

However- from my perspective-- I know it would have been much harder for me to do what I have done if I was burdened by the idea that I would "never catch up with the neurotypicals".

Equally- I know the way my mind works tolerably well- and I know how it differs from what one might call the neurotypical.

I have an immense stubbornness (you could call it oppositionality or refusal to confirm-- but I choose to call it moral fortitude), and a refusal to accept any common knowledge or recieved wisdom just because it is commonly accepted.

I have friends who work as science teachers, or more deeply embedded within the mainstream of medicine- and so often get into arguments where I am being told "You can't think that way. There is no evidence for it".
It usually turns out that there is evidence 9even if obscure) and even where there is not, there is no evidence against my way of thinking.

I really do see this determination to hold to our own truth until we have been comprehensively and convincingly out reasoned is a very ADHD trait-- at least in the 10% of us who are academically successful, or the other large group who have a measure of life success.

Other people seem to be more obedient, more conditioned.

Lunacie
01-21-14, 05:25 PM
Yes, I have sometimes done that, held to my own opinion, perhaps stubbornly, until truly convinced there was no truth in it.

And occasionally been proven right.

Those with ADHD are notorious for rejecting authority, certainly not what I'd call conditioned or obedient.

Kunga Dorji
01-23-14, 03:19 PM
To say had I been NT instead of ADHD I would have been more successful, in my world view is denying that as you are as you were designed to be. I personally do not know of any other way of interpenetrating this but you think differently so it very well may not be your intended message.


This is the big thing--- might have beens.
Finally- I am comfortable with who I am.
I am comfortable with who I am-- and I am comfortable that I am evolving and developing as I should.
Increasingly I take the attitude that we choose our incarnations for the advantages they offer us. Whether or not that attitude is an objective reality it shifts me from a state of negativity about the struggles and difficulties I have faced to continually asking the question "what lessons have I come to this existence to learn?" That is a protective attitude- it keeps me more positive and helps me grow.

Intro to "The Edison Gene" by Thom Hartmann:
[quote]
I was in India in 1993 to help manage a community for orphans and blind children on behalf of a German charity. During the monsoon season, the week of the big Hyderabad earthquake, I took an all-day train ride almost all the way across the subcontinent (from Bombay through Hyderabad to Rajamundri) to visit an obscure town near the Bay of Bengal. In the train compartment with me were several Indian businessmen and a physician, and we had plenty of time to talk as the countryside flew by from sunrise to sunset.

Curious about how they viewed our children diagnosed as having Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD), I asked, "Are you familiar with those types of people who seem to crave stimulation, yet have a hard time staying with any one focus for a period of time? They may hop from career to career and sometimes even from relationship to relationship, never seeming to settle into one job or into a life with one person — but the whole time they remain incredibly creative and inventive."

"Ah, we know this type well," one of the men said, the other three nodding in agreement.

"What do you call this personality type?" I asked.

"Very holy," he said. "These are old souls, near the end of their karmic cycle."

Again, the other three nodded agreement, perhaps a bit more vigorously in response to my startled look.

"Old souls?" I questioned, thinking that a very odd description for those whom American psychiatrists have diagnosed as having a particular disorder.

"Yes," the physician said. "In our religion, we believe that the purpose of reincarnation is to eventually free oneself from worldly entanglement and desire. In each lifetime we experience certain lessons, until finally we are free of this earth and can merge into the oneness of God. When a soul is very close to the end of those thousands of incarnations, he must take a few lifetimes to do many, many things — to clean up the little threads left over from his previous lives."

"This is a man very close to becoming enlightened," a businessman added. "We have great respect for such individuals, although their lives may be difficult."

Another businessman raised a finger and interjected. "But it is through the difficulties of such lives that the soul is purified."

The others nodded agreement.

"In America they consider this behavior indicative of a psychiatric disorder," I said.

All three looked startled, then laughed.

"In America you consider our most holy men, our yogis and swamis, to be crazy people as well," said the physician with a touch of sadness in his voice. "So it is with different cultures. We live in different worlds."

[quote]

So - I am hardly alone in seeing the question a different way. While I do regard the symptoms of ADHD as very difficult- I am with the 3 Indian businessmen, who are, in fact concerned about the cultural imperialism of the Western Medical Fraternity.

Kunga Dorji
01-23-14, 03:33 PM
Yes, I have sometimes done that, held to my own opinion, perhaps stubbornly, until truly convinced there was no truth in it.

And occasionally been proven right.

Those with ADHD are notorious for rejecting authority, certainly not what I'd call conditioned or obedient.

This is starting to diverge-- but the vast majority of the population seem not to even question the basis on which authority is held.

I do not know what your upbringing was like, but as a bright but restless kid with a divergent mind I was continually being told I was wrong. I was wrong far less frequently than I was told, and I certainly learned that I risked losing my identity if I submitted to that nonsense. I suspect your upbringing was the same- and I am aware of that and sympathetic to that probability even when I am digging in my heels and disagreeing with you.

My (ex science teacher) mother, and a science teacher friend of mine are still utterly convinced that I am wrong over the upper neck subluxation issue despite the patently obvious improvements in my health and my mental performance brought about by its correction.They are so convinced that they refuse to even look at any of the evidence that I bring up in its favour. Now that is what I call a socially conditioned, unscientific attitude.

Lunacie
01-23-14, 04:53 PM
This is starting to diverge-- but the vast majority of the population seem not to even question the basis on which authority is held.

I do not know what your upbringing was like, but as a bright but restless kid with a divergent mind I was continually being told I was wrong. I was wrong far less frequently than I was told, and I certainly learned that I risked losing my identity if I submitted to that nonsense. I suspect your upbringing was the same- and I am aware of that and sympathetic to that probability even when I am digging in my heels and disagreeing with you.

My (ex science teacher) mother, and a science teacher friend of mine are still utterly convinced that I am wrong over the upper neck subluxation issue despite the patently obvious improvements in my health and my mental performance brought about by its correction.They are so convinced that they refuse to even look at any of the evidence that I bring up in its favour. Now that is what I call a socially conditioned, unscientific attitude.

I'm sorry you have to deal with that attitude.

I must take your word for it that the neck treatments made a big difference in your ability to function.

I simply don't believe that this is a universal problem and that every person diagnosed with ADHD

would necessarily find as much benefit from this treatment as you have done.


Comparing any who don't wholeheartedly agree with you to the attitude your mom and friend have

puts you at the disadvantage of having to convince others before there can be any discussion.

Just have the discussion and they can find the truth for themselves or not.

Kunga Dorji
01-24-14, 07:36 AM
I'm sorry you have to deal with that attitude.

I must take your word for it that the neck treatments made a big difference in your ability to function.

I simply don't believe that this is a universal problem and that every person diagnosed with ADHD

would necessarily find as much benefit from this treatment as you have done.


Comparing any who don't wholeheartedly agree with you to the attitude your mom and friend have

puts you at the disadvantage of having to convince others before there can be any discussion.

Just have the discussion and they can find the truth for themselves or not.


You know I never said "every person".

Biedermann's evidence from his clinic is that of school age children presenting to his clinic with ADHD symptoms and a history and physical examination consistent with a birth acquired upper neck injury-- two out of three improve so much with one or two treatments to the upper neck that further treatment for ADHD is unnecessary, and the results are superior to stimulant treatment.

That is a much more highly qualified and nuanced statement than "all people would benefit from this treatment.

I will go further than that though:
I have suffered a major disc prolapse, and Scheurmann's disease. I have spent most of my life with a significant scoliosis that nobody seemed to notice (you can have a copy of my wedding photo if you like-- it is very obvious). I now have a highly unstable neck and thoracic spine.
I have a history of years of struggling with the consequences of my ADHD behaviours and have had 2 years of intensive psychotherapy to unravel all the negative ideas i held about myself as a result of all these.

To really beat the ADHD problem which was clearly directly caused by the derangement of my proprioception caused by the birth injury to my neck and transcend the secondary mental negativity has taken an enormous effort and expense, --- but it has been worth it.

All the trauma, all the pain, now only leaves me in a better position to do my work and to embody my commitment as a practitioner of dharma. I have a bigger database to draw on than I ever imagined possible! There has to be a good side to that.

SO- I am not saying that simply having the neck issue corrected will correct all your attention problems.

What I am saying is that the posture required for excellent attention is well established. That posture cannot be achieved with a jammed up and dysfunctional spine.

I will post on this in the meditation and spirituality section.
I have completed my first draft of what will become a more serious paper on the physiological reasons why the recommended sitting meditation posture is likely to be appropriate.