View Full Version : ADD friend-non stop talking... coping skills


Tawaki
01-05-14, 11:00 AM
I have known my friend since he was 16. I'm 48 now. Tim is 52.

His life has been a mess of trashed jobs, trashed friendships, just a train wreck of things blowing up in his face due to his ADHD behaviors.

Tim has severe ADHD and depression. He sees a psychiatrist for meds only. Refuses to see a therapist because....

*I'm born this way. I can't help it. People will just have to deal. People don't expect a wheelchair person to dance, so why should I stop (insert ADHD behavior here).

The holidays were horrific. We stayed a week at his place. Every TV on, LOUD. It was like living with a brass band playing Sousa marches for a week. It was sensory overload to the nth degree.

The behaviors that is causing me not wanting to continue the friendship is the extreme excessive talking. I have a bipolar relative. I know about manias and pressured speech. My husband is an Aspie. I know about Aspie monologues. I'd take both of those over Tim's never ending verbal assault.

He fancies that he's like Robin Williams. Funny with quick witted one liners. No, he's not.
Tim has no clue on what is socially appropriate. He'll use profanity in public around families and little kids. (I have a potty mouth, and like Carlin and Pryor, not a little church mouse here lol..) it's cringe worthy. Tim talks AT you, and loud. Like heated discussion loud, and doesn't known it. He'll talk and say things that doesn't make sense.

This is what causes our near friendship ending fight.

Tim said, the US helped rebuild Finland after WII. My family is from Finland and that fact is not true. It wasn't bombed during WII (which is what he meant), whether it received aid, I dont know. I told Tim that, then the whole conversation spiraled out of control. He did this hodge podge of put downs, and off tangent comments. Finally I said, I was done talking about that issues. Then Tim really blew up. I'm a *****. I'm like everyone else. Everyone thinks he's evil (which is a misuse of the word), vain and egotistical.

I lost it. We were in the car, so this made it even more fun. NOT!

I yelled shut up. Told him one reason people are frustrated with him is he never shuts up. If he isn't talking, he's humming. He has to make some noise. If he isn't making noise, he gets up and fiddled with something. He never ever actively lessons. EVER.

I said his ADHD behaviors are getting worse, and he needs to call his doctor.

What I didn't tell him is that my extended family will not visit if he is over for the holidays again. His behaviors were that bad. We had him over for Thanksgiving and Christmas.
They know his diagnosis (Tim tells everyone). We have mental health issues. My family is pretty forgiving. He was just that bad.

Tim doesn't drink, use street drugs or abuse his Ritalin. He is hard working and generous to a fault. He does care about people.

If I leave, Tim will literally have no one. His family avoids him. He works for himself on IT contracts, minimal contact there. No real friends to socialize consistently with. His last church asked him to leave, when the members read the riot act to the pastor about Tim's behavior.

I known me yelling at Tim was wrong, I worked in the elementary school system, and am very familiar with ADHD.

I can only change myself, and not him. Any and all suggestions welcomed.

Corina86
01-05-14, 02:12 PM
Is seems to me he has other issues besides ADHD, including some very bad social skills. You can't change what he is, but you can help him adjust if you want to. At this point, you're only making thinks worse for him: you tolerate things that you shouldn't tolerate (foul language, yelling, noise making), you never actually tell him that what he's doing is inappropriate, but you somehow expect him to realize all that on his own. ADHD doesn't mean that a person has no self-control whatsoever, if he like excess noise, he can listen to music on his headphones, if he must fidget and move, he can play on his cell-phone, if he must talk, then at least he can talk about something you're interested in as well. He probably tries very hard to please in his own way, to seem funny, but he's not realizing it's not working with you. If you want to help, tell him EVERYTHING he is doing wrong and how he can fix it, like: you can swear and curse, but not in my house and in front of children EVER, this joke was bad and I would appreciate not hearing any others like it, you're wrong about this so please educate yourself if you want to talk to me about this issue etc. You have to put your foot in and set some limits him. And if he can't respect your demands, than you don't have to tolerate his behaviour anymore. He's not a child, he's responsible for his own well-being, you have no obligation towards him, you seem to have been a good friend already, so he should try to be a good friend to you. If he isn't trying, that mean he doesn't appreciate you enough as a friend and he should find himself another one.

Nicksgonefishin
01-05-14, 02:33 PM
Expecting the world to change for him is a very unfair expectation. His ADHD is his to deal with. It is not yours to compensate for. You can't force an unhappy person to be happy... I couldn't imagine wallowing in ADHD for 5 decades!

If he faces it and deals with all of this it will reduce if not end his suffering all together. Bottling feelings doesn't do anybody any good..

When you get to the end of the road Google Love through retraction...

VeryTired
01-05-14, 05:25 PM
Hi, Tawaki--

I'm sorry to hear of your tough situation, and I commend you for caring so much about your friend. Not everyone would take the trouble to come here to the Forums because of a friendship. Lot's of us, like me, are here on the non-ADD Partner support board because of closer relationships.

My partner has ADHD (and I do not). He is in his mid-50s, and had kept very few friends throughout his life. He has lots of great qualities, but he has lost touch with or alienated almost everyone from previous eras in his life. So I can easily imagine how your friend is in the position you describe.

I also relate to how you characterize your friend's constant talking. Your description is very good--I immediately recognized the exact same qualities my partner's conversion has, and which sometimes leaves me feeling as if I cannot stand it one second longer. Over the years, my toleration has almost disappeared. He opens his mouth, and I feel assaulted by the monologues, incorrect information, insistence upon his own point of view, inability to change subjects to reflect other people's interests, failure to acknowledge what others have said … etc. It makes me feel erased, made use of, trampled--although I know he has no such intentions, ever.

Anyway, what I am trying to say is that I understand your situation, and I sympathize with you. I also want to say that what you can and should do for a friend is probably different from what you owe a relative or a partner. So I think you can tell Tim that his ADHD is causing unsustainable problems in your relationship, and that you don't want to lose him as a friend. Urge him to get some help, for his own sake and for that of his relationships with others. You can suggest that he get some therapy or coaching, and if you are able, you could even research some specific possible resources for him of that kind.

But I don't think you can or should have to break down for him what all the problems are in his behavior. This seems to me not something that will fit well in the framework of friendship. This is a case for professionals--or, if it's available, maybe a support or therapy group for adults for ADHD. My partner tells me that the most valuable thing that allows him to understand my point of view regarding his ADHD is going to his therapy group for adults with ADHD. His fellow group members often drive him crazy and he comes home having, for the first time, insight into what it's like to be me listening to him.

all good wishes to you, and to Tim--and i hope you'll let us know what happens with you both--

Tawaki
01-05-14, 06:10 PM
Oh Tim knows what are my triggers! Lol!

We have actually talked about the excessive talking, and the need for sensory seeking behavior.

I truly don't care about the fidgeting or moving around. I work with kids, and am immune to that. :)

Tim has no comorbids, except depression. Who wouldn't be depressed with what has occurred in his life? He has three televisions, and when he's alone, all of them are on. When I come over, one is off so I can go for break.

He was medicated in the early 70s. I'm guessing with benzos? His mother almost lost her mind dealing with him. Nothing through the late 70s and 80s. After he was fired from his last job, number 8 in 15 years, he got help.

Tim has been fired from 3 psychiatric practices. His current one, is the tops in our area with ADHD. He told me Tim is the worse case he has ever seen. This is a guy who deals with the courts, schools etc....

The psychiatrist also told me, people with symptoms as bad as Tim self medicate. By the grace of god he has never done that.

Tim went through neuropsychiatric testing to rule out Aspergers. This was another 900 lb gorilla doctor, who is the head of our state's autism society. Nothing. Just pure, really bad ADHD.

I'll hang around, and appreciate all the responses. People have much more leeway for little kids with ADHD. Adults, not so much. Like you should magically outgrow it at 18.

Nicksgonefishin
01-05-14, 06:23 PM
Pressured speech
so difficult that 3 professionals have given up.
All kinds of things that have happened in his life.

But some how came out with no comorbids?
Tell me more!

I appreciate your optimism and trust in him but is it possible loves Rose colored glasses have distorted your view.

With no comorbids... You have to ask yourself why am I attracted to a Narcissistic...

janiew
01-05-14, 06:26 PM
I have a similar longterm family/friend relationship - and then I found out I have ADHD. REALLY?

kilted_scotsman
01-05-14, 06:27 PM
If the guy has a fixed mindset and doesn't believe that change is possible then there's not a lot you can do.

This mindset is quite common.... and reinforced by doctors focus on medication and the way therapy works.... people expect a therapist to "fix" problems the way a doctor does... and see results in weeks rather than years.

What makes a difference i when the person admits to themselves firstly, that they are suffering, and secondly that they would like to explore the causes of that suffering.

The issue here is that your friend has done this.... and been told, you have really bad ADHD, try these pills.... with the underlying message that if the pills don't help the underlying behaviours are fixed by brain structure.

This unfortunate message is still the default position, however we are now seeing some movements toward understanding the plasticity of the brain.

What you could tell your friend is that new research is showing that the brain is malleable and there are new techniques being developed to aid this process.

You might also say that he would be a prime candidate for testing these systems.... there is a purpose to his effort not just for himself but to help others like him..... so that kids in the future don't have to live through what he has lived through.

kilted

ginniebean
01-05-14, 08:04 PM
Is seems to me he has other issues besides ADHD, including some very bad social skills. You can't change what he is, but you can help him adjust if you want to. At this point, you're only making thinks worse for him: you tolerate things that you shouldn't tolerate (foul language, yelling, noise making), you never actually tell him that what he's doing is inappropriate, but you somehow expect him to realize all that on his own. ADHD doesn't mean that a person has no self-control whatsoever, if he like excess noise, he can listen to music on his headphones, if he must fidget and move, he can play on his cell-phone, if he must talk, then at least he can talk about something you're interested in as well. He probably tries very hard to please in his own way, to seem funny, but he's not realizing it's not working with you. If you want to help, tell him EVERYTHING he is doing wrong and how he can fix it, like: you can swear and curse, but not in my house and in front of children EVER, this joke was bad and I would appreciate not hearing any others like it, you're wrong about this so please educate yourself if you want to talk to me about this issue etc. You have to put your foot in and set some limits him. And if he can't respect your demands, than you don't have to tolerate his behaviour anymore. He's not a child, he's responsible for his own well-being, you have no obligation towards him, you seem to have been a good friend already, so he should try to be a good friend to you. If he isn't trying, that mean he doesn't appreciate you enough as a friend and he should find himself another one.

I've seen this too many times now and this time I am going to say something. Nothing personal Corina because this really is not just about you.

20% of adults with Adhd have autistic like social skills. That's part of adhd and I'm one of them. I can't read faces, I don't read contexts of situations well, and I often "just don't get it". It is really really disturbing to see how often extreme combined type behaviour gets moralized on here. If someone was saying that "you can pay attention if you want and it' s unacceptable!" You'd find that unacceptable.

We don't have a combined type section on here so people really haven't a very good idea of what that can look like.

Impulsivity, loudness, restlessness, these are not choices people WANT to make. The guy this person is talking about was kicked out of CHURCH!

These very much are extreme adhd symptoms. I'm so damned grateful I'm an introvert because if I was extroverted I could be this guy.

I have accidently dropped some blue language "even around children omg!" and you know what? I felt absolutely terrible. It was NOT a choice, it just came out. Maybe you and other people have control over this sort of thing, but it goes way too far when people suggest that hyperactive and impulsive symptoms can be moralized.

Everyone says "boy I'd sure like to have that gift of energy you hyperactive types have" but honestly, never being able to relax is hard. Not being able to sit still, pacing, fiddling, talking. You can talk to yourself "I will not talk, I'll have a very low voice, I'll do this and that and all the right things this time!"

Then you fail, and then you fail again and again and again. This man doesn't need a stern talking to about his moral failure to be a 'good person'.

It's so deeply saddening to me when I see this kind of advice given over symptomatic behaviour. Classically symptomatic at that. The 'friend' has no one else, and you don't have a problem telling his only friend, well tell him to shape up or I'm dumping you to the curb?


This person may never change, meds tend not to work so well on the impulsivity or the emotional regulation when it's severe. He might consider talking to his friend about a med adjustment because if there was no one to let him know how he's doing he may simply know something is wrong but not what. To gently tell a life long friend some real hard truths and have it done with some real compassion is not unreasonable. Adhd has ruined this man's life and this is his only and last friend.

I strongly recommend for him to be spoken with, to be told what it's like, and probably not in person because he'll become very emotional and things will excalate. Write him a personal e-mail, show compassion, tell him what it's really like around him, the sea of noise, the chaos he is surrounded by. Be blunt but kind, don't euphemize too much often people who can't pick up on social tues also don't get muted language. It might take you some time editing things, but letting him know you care, that you value him will help him here the hard stuff. It might also give him the words he's never been able to put together by himself to talk with his doc about ohis problem, his doc sees him in an office not real life, and can only go by what he observes and is told. Articulating adhd is very hard to do.

The reason you want to do this in an e-mail is because of processing time. Anxiety fuels fear and then defensiveness and anger, and then nothing actually really gets heard or said. With a sincere and heartfelt e-mail letting him know that he needs help, that he needs to see his doctor, that his meds just aren't enough. He needs to hear that, an e-mail gives him that processing time, it could take DAYS before he can really see what you're saying and for him to quell the anxiety enough to listen reasonably and fairly. Give him that time as a show of respect for what he is dealing with.

ADHD can really suck sometimes.

VeryTired
01-05-14, 08:11 PM
Dear Ginniebean--

Thank you so much for what you wrote here. You are very clear, and very eloquent about this. This is incredibly valuable as a description from the inside of the sort of thing we non-ADHD folks sometimes watch in amazement from the outside. What you wrote helped me to imagine and empathize with some of what I find most difficult to deal with in my partner. He has a hard time telling me what it's like to be him, the more so when there is tension or trouble. But what you wrote here helps me to understand the sort of thing he may be experiencing

Daydreamin22
01-05-14, 08:34 PM
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-friendship-doctor/201007/5-tips-handling-incessant-talker
great source. not adhd, but deals with non stop talking. Hope it helps.

ana futura
01-05-14, 09:57 PM
20% of adults with Adhd have autistic like social skills. That's part of adhd and I'm one of them. I can't read faces, I don't read contexts of situations well, and I often "just don't get it". It is really really disturbing to see how often extreme combined type behaviour gets moralized on here. If someone was saying that "you can pay attention if you want and it' s unacceptable!" You'd find that unacceptable.

We don't have a combined type section on here so people really haven't a very good idea of what that can look like.

Impulsivity, loudness, restlessness, these are not choices people WANT to make. The guy this person is talking about was kicked out of CHURCH!

These very much are extreme adhd symptoms. I'm so damned grateful I'm an introvert because if I was extroverted I could be this guy. :goodpost:

This can't be said enough. Every time I see a post on here that's like "Oh, that sounds like it's more than ADHD..." the behaviors that are being described are 100% ADHD behaviors.

I suspect this guy has no "comorbids" because his doctor is smart enough to know what real ADHD looks like. It's not pretty.

There's 2 approaches to treating ADHD- one is to recognize the full scope of the disorder, and treat all as one package, regardless of what the DSM says.

The other approach is to nonsensically chop things up and add on more disorders, because that's what the DSM implies- even though everything can actually be explained by all of the current research on ADHD.

The doctors who specialize in ADHD seem to follow the former approach.

I swear to god if I see another post saying that emotional dysregulation is not a part of ADHD I will punch my computer (just to show you how much of a part of ADHD it is.)

And then the moralizing, as you say,it's despicable. Attentional problems are the least of my worries, the toughest things for me to deal with are all related to impulsivity- all behaviors that still get moralized, even here.

I have a disorder that makes me an ahole at times. That's pretty much the full scope of my disorder. If I could take the ahole symptoms away, there wouldn't be much wrong with me.

ginniebean
01-05-14, 10:30 PM
I have a disorder that makes me an ahole at times. That's pretty much the full scope of my disorder. If I could take the ahole symptoms away, there wouldn't be much wrong with me.

Yes! This! And I'm so tired of feeling like a bad person even here.

This place is littered with these statements,

"I was spacey but not one of those obnoxious kids"

"I was a good kid and didn't drive everyone crazy"
We were good kids too.

We're good people now.

And .. If I could take away the ahole symptoms? How incredible that would be? Thank you! Thank you!

Nicksgonefishin
01-05-14, 11:28 PM
So this is just adhd? Or adhd with a negative denying attitude? Like "I'm not going to get better so there is no point"?

VeryTired
01-05-14, 11:40 PM
I just want to say that Ana Futura's point also seems to me extremely true and important. I really appreciate the clarity and directness of this approach, and I think it's really valuable to see the reality and to refuse moral judgments about it. Thank you.

janiew
01-05-14, 11:49 PM
Well, speaking for myself... I'm just a loud-mouth yet introspective ADHD person with very likely Asperger / high functioning autism symptoms.

Had to pull myself up by my bootstraps and survived. Feel pretty confident about my nerd- and geek-ness...

There are worse things...

Nicksgonefishin
01-06-14, 12:26 AM
Would you guys concede to comorbid traited/features/symptoms?

Or is very severe adhd where rigidity and chaos are extreme.

Being pi I don't have impulses so much as I have compulsions.

janiew
01-06-14, 12:32 AM
Comorbid is pretty normal...

Along with some chaos...

Tawaki
01-06-14, 12:41 AM
I originally thought Tim had Aspergers, like David Finch, the author. I read his book, and so much of it resonated with me. So I begged Tim to go for the 4 hour ordeal known as getting tested for adult Autism.

Swing and a miss! Four hours of testing. Nope, nope, nope...just really bad ADHD.

Tim has dog crap executive function skills, BUT he does have theatre of the mind. He is "aware" of what he should be doing in social situations. Aware is different from doing.:giggle:

The neuropsychologist said ADHD is similar to Autism, because your brain is wired slightly different.

My Aspie husband is ALWAYS late. His executive functioning skills are just as rotten as Tim's. Jay just will not move. It's like getting the Rocky Mountains to move. I don't understand how that works with Autism, but that is his reality.

Tim's just as late. His is butterflies! Oh shiny! Oh this! Oh that! I'll start this and 3 hours later from hyper focusing, he's beyond late.

Both want to be on time. Both brains are wired differently.

Tim knows about social skills. His brain whirls like a hamster wheel at the end of a drill. When he tells a blue joke to a mixed audience, it is because his brain is twirling. It's the moment. There is very little thinking about what are these people thinking, or they enjoying this. I call it a stampede. Once his little ADHD pony is off to the races, reigning him in is impossible. He doesn't realize he's being not appropriate, UNTIL it's too late. Then people think he's a douche or whatever.

My Aspie husband is utterly unaware of picking up social cues period. Everything is learned as rote. Jay is actually much worse off than Tim. Jay flat out has no clue, and can't pick it up on the fly. Tim knows, but then the brain processing gets in the way.

Sad thing is, socializing-wise, even though my husband barely knows how to interact with people that don't share his special interests (science, astrophysics), Tim gets in trouble more. If you met my husband, you would find him to be a socially awkward, pleasant, introverted geek. He is beyond polite. He looks like he is listening, but I know he's busily figuring out what to say next. Everything is figuring out the social script.

Tim loves people, parties, and can do more things socially then my husband EVER could. His down fall is the brain to mouth connection, and impulse control. Tim wants to be entertaining like Oscar Wilde, but unlike Wilde, who probably considered who his audience was, that part blows by Tim.

The lack of thinking on the fly, (don't know what else to call it), is always present with Tim. Phone calls. Doctor's appointments. I won't let him ever come back into the ER treatment room with me. He has all the social skills of a toddler in those situations. He says things that could be taken as slight digs. Or starts raising hell why things are taking so long. Or when do I think I will be going home. He thinks he is being a good friend doing all this. Tim knows he should accompany his friend to the ER. My husband didn't have a clue why he should. I would much rather have my clueless husband there. His default is say nothing in stressful situations. Tim just runs his mouth alienating everyone in the process.

My biggest issue with Tim is that he uses his ADHD as an excuse not to do ANY self improvement. That is the depression and anxiety talking, and also thinking about yourself and things you need to work on isn't very exciting.

I appreciate the emailing suggestion. Talking about problems always sends Tim into panic mode. That is the part I can't deal with. Him escalating into a full bore scream fest is not what I willing do anymore. I just shut it down. Of course, this makes him more angry because he wants to flail around with off tangent topics, and accusations. Then I'm just another person who considers him, "evil, vain and egotistical". I have no clue where the hell he came up with that phrase, but it is not even accurate to the situation. I tell him quit using emotionally loaded words.

Tim has a socially wonky brain. It isn't very exciting or fun dealing with that aspect for him. Medications can make it easier to learn the things you need to work on, but Tim needs to do the work.

Thanks for all the suggestions and comments. This board let me lose a little steam. Don't want to lash out in anger at Tim. No good comes of that.

Nicksgonefishin
01-06-14, 12:52 AM
Wow. He sounds just plain toxic...
You have more compassion and empathy than I.

ginniebean
01-06-14, 01:16 AM
So this is just adhd? Or adhd with a negative denying attitude? Like "I'm not going to get better so there is no point"?

I can't help but be emotional about this topic and I have trouble modulating my tone when emotional so please know that I think you're great.

I don't know how else to say this except to just lay it on the line. This man is my age, a little older. I was diagnosed at 4 yrs of age. Back in the day kids like is we're run out of school. Accommodations did not exist. Little was known about adhd and common wisdom was to shame and beat it out of us.

This guy has likely been thru dozens of jobs. He's been socially shunned, he's been beaten down for many years. He doesn't work at his own company because he'a just so creative, it's because he can't work with people because he can't meet their social expectations.

When you have social disability it totally ****s your life. I watch as to this day parents saying, my kid has no friends but I don't want to put him on mess because he's doing good academically. You can be a freaking genius, do your job better than anyone else but if people think you're weird they will find a way for you to get fired. You will be socially isolated and lose your friends.

The social deficits that come with adhd are disabling in serious ways and yet even on an adhd forum people say, "can't be just adhd!".

Negative. I despise that label. What an awesome way to invalidate another. The truth is. I have tried so hard all my life, I'm a fighter and I've been called negative many times.

Sure if he could afford it maybe he could pay a hundred dollars a week for therapy and after a few years have a better attitude, maybe a therapist could build up his self esteem so he's willing to keep trying, and I'm betting he is. That he's not doing so with a perky attitude is not cause for blame.

Why do we think therapy can fix social deficits? Hyperactivity and impulsivity are disabling, it's the same as forgetting. These are symptoms. When people say 'if you loved me you wouldn't forget. Now. You can make a sticky and put it on your steering wheel that says don't forget to get milk. Tell me what you do when you go to work dreading that you'll do something another finds unpardonable, that today is the day you'll break the camels back?


For social deficits there are few helpful tips. It barely even gets mentioned on this forum. Medication at 40 doesn't make you understand all the social stuff you don't get. You don't know what to do and everything you've tried including back flips and it doesn't get better?

At a certain point all this ducking cheery positivity is just more social correction and etiquette. And once again you fail. Are our whole lives to be sacrificed on the altar of "wellness". Try this intervention and that intervention no no, you can't be exhausted and you sure as hell can't be unapologetically yourself. To be yourself is giving up, it's negative.

I have said and will continue to say adhd is a disability, and normal people have some changing to do too in the area of acceptance. I don't actually expect them to but duck me if I'm going to spend my remaining 20 years bowing and scraping for a favor that I'm very unlikely to get.

So, I say move over, you can make room for me too! It's just as much a civil rights issue to me

So, maybe saying accept me as I am is not such a horror. Maybe at 50 Yrs old we've earned the right to say. "I'm too tired to go sit in the back of the bus. You move.

I'm still struggling socially and I still get penalized even here. Disdain, contempt, I feel them for my "unacceptable" lack of restraint. I still don't have a road map, I still don't have answers and I do get dawned tires of the expected happy attitude.

People like happy slaves too, see? They're happy!

ginniebean
01-06-14, 01:26 AM
Would you guys concede to comorbid traited/features/symptoms?

Or is very severe adhd where rigidity and chaos are extreme.

Being pi I don't have impulses so much as I have compulsions.


Impulsivity and hyperactivity are core symptoms of adhd. What concession needs to be made here?


This is what hyperactivity combined with impulsivity AND inattentiveness looks like in an adult. This is what we've been struggling with all our lives.

Nicksgonefishin
01-06-14, 01:59 AM
It's the why try attitude that bugs me. Or the flat out unwillingness to try.

I fully understand as to why people give up. I even gave up on life. But one doesn't have to wallow in their adhd. Change is possible. I realize it sounds like I'm on some kind of soap box and maybe I am.

Part of my frustration is having an ex that had all the opportunity to face and deal with it and she made the CHOICE not too. I guess I'm jaded in that respect.

I fully agree that adhd is a nasty nasty disability. I may have forgotten that others aren't as fortunate as I am to have options in treating it.

I agree fully that the doctor Phil approach is not the right way.

On the scientific end comorbids are very common especially the longer ones adhd goes untreated. (I forget the numbers but barkley and hallowell agree on them).Perhaps you could call them culturally unacceptable coping mechanisms.

As kilted_scotsman called it somewhere a mindset. I myself have been considering the idea that perhaps ADHDers aren't optimistic but rather pessimistic. After trying so hard and still failing.

Thank you for replying. I'm glad I struck a cord. I find that much of my change comes from being open when things strike that emotional cord.

ginniebean
01-06-14, 02:06 AM
He said people can accept him as he is in a heated moment. How is this translating into him constantly using excuses. He doesn't likely know what else to do.

I read everything I can on adhd social deficits and there is just not a lot of good advice.

I don't know what to do.

And just out of curiosity what is he doing that you think "not adhd".

He has a specialist in adhd who says it's all adhd with some depression. I'd be shocked if he doesn't also have anxiety which causes a lot of the lack of restraint.

Nicksgonefishin
01-06-14, 02:38 AM
Forgive me If I'm wrong but isn't anxiety a comorbid? ;)

By "not adhd" I meant more than adhd. Call it what you want. The attitude or mindset that comes along with unsuccessful management of adhd.

Comoribids are simply a way of classifying them for the dsm. I'm not saying I see anything specific in the posts rather there is a high possibility that one may be an issue and may provide better understanding.

My guess is there isn't much literature on the social deficits because we are all different and live in different cultures. The problem is there isn't a culture yet that understand adhd. Just as you illuded to. It isn't socially acceptable to be socially unacceptable.

That is why so many find refuge here. We all understand that we are weird. Just as it is hard to understand NT's Sometimes it is hard to understand others on here because we aren't all alike...

My intent wasn't to ostrisize but perhaps a lack of understanding that lead to a lack of empathy.

ginniebean
01-06-14, 02:55 AM
Yes, anxiety is a comorbid so is depression but here is the thing. PI types and combined types express things differently. Lots of people with PI type have both anxiety and depression and people don't routinely say, this sounds like way more than adhd. It really is unfortunate that some of the more severe combined types just aren't better understood. Lots in jail.

Nicksgonefishin
01-06-14, 03:27 AM
Technically one could just call it fear and how people present that fear.

My fear has classifying names Avpd, ocd, A/D.

I had this problem yesterday.... so many people are stuck on verbage. My use of homonyms is killing me! That's a special adhd social norm communication issue... Has gotten me into many an unintended argument. "But Nick you said" when I MEANT something different but very similar. Then forget what I said but remember what I meant....

sarahsweets
01-06-14, 05:26 AM
saying someone with adhd should be willing to try and change is the same as saying someone who is blind should just try and read a book like his sight worthy friends.

BellaVita
01-06-14, 05:45 AM
Yes! This! And I'm so tired of feeling like a bad person even here.

This place is littered with these statements,

"I was spacey but not one of those obnoxious kids"

"I was a good kid and didn't drive everyone crazy"
We were good kids too.

We're good people now.

And .. If I could take away the ahole symptoms? How incredible that would be? Thank you! Thank you!

I know I'm kinda late on this...

But yeah!

Agree with you ginnie and ana!

I have combined type and it's no walk in the park.

I've made a fool of myself so many times in my life, but thanks to these forums I'm finally realizing *it's not all moral failing.*

I'm VERY impulsive
VERY hyper
VERY annoying sometimes
And rude

But I can't help it.

I try my hardest

It's so difficult when I'm unmedicated I usually screw up

Thankfully I have a bit of an anxiety disorder - sometimes I panic and don't say much :rolleyes:

But usually, even when medicated, words (sometimes mean) are flying out my mouth before I have the time to think or even consider what they are :(

Or people have called me names and chalked it up to moral failing for my obnoxious hyperactivity "that I'm just doing to disrupt and annoy" and I should "be considerate of others"

We ARE good people. The fact we care so much means so.

kilted_scotsman
01-06-14, 10:20 AM
I'm combined type too.....

I don't agree with Sarahsweets when she says...
Saying someone with adhd should be willing to try and change is the same as saying someone who is blind should just try and read a book like his sight worthy friends.

My view is that we can all change SOME aspects of our behaviour, even if this change is just being aware enough to remove ourselves from potentially difficult situations.

I had pretty dire social skills....but didn't realise until recently how dire those were.... and how they destroyed any opportunity my intellect gave me.

It has been a long road but I have now changed quite a bit.... to the extent that people comment about how moved they are by the difference a few years of work can make.

This work is hard.... and it cannot be done alone. It needs people who are prepared to give "unconditional positive regard" to the person.. to see through the social crassness to the pain beneath.

It also takes the person to recognise that change is possible.....and be encouraged along that path. For a person i theri 50's this is REALLY hard.... because it means the person has to admit they could have changed earler but chose not to... and the pain of that can be too much to bear.... so the possibility of change is denied.

One of the important thing when dealing with people like this is to let the potential triggers flow past. You also need to learn about "active listening".... which is being able to listen to a flow of "stuff", and pick out the grains of gold..... this is what therapists do...

It might be an idea to go on a course to learn it....it's a really useful skill to have... and makes a MASSIVE difference in lots of areas of life.

kilted

ginniebean
01-06-14, 10:53 AM
Kilted, it doesn't mean they could have changed and chose not to. I can guarantee they've tried, and failed and nothing so far has worked. Change means a lot of meta learning. A lot of understanding about your own inner workings and a lot of insights that require reflection mostly with no guidance.

It's not that this person wouldn't be hard to be around, my problem was the moralizing of symptoms. And the quick advice to say change or You are out.

Lunacie
01-06-14, 12:07 PM
I've seen this too many times now and this time I am going to say something. Nothing personal Corina because this really is not just about you.

20% of adults with Adhd have autistic like social skills. That's part of adhd and I'm one of them. I can't read faces, I don't read contexts of situations well, and I often "just don't get it". It is really really disturbing to see how often extreme combined type behaviour gets moralized on here. If someone was saying that "you can pay attention if you want and it' s unacceptable!" You'd find that unacceptable.

We don't have a combined type section on here so people really haven't a very good idea of what that can look like.

Impulsivity, loudness, restlessness, these are not choices people WANT to make. The guy this person is talking about was kicked out of CHURCH!

These very much are extreme adhd symptoms. I'm so damned grateful I'm an introvert because if I was extroverted I could be this guy.

I have accidently dropped some blue language "even around children omg!" and you know what? I felt absolutely terrible. It was NOT a choice, it just came out. Maybe you and other people have control over this sort of thing, but it goes way too far when people suggest that hyperactive and impulsive symptoms can be moralized.

Everyone says "boy I'd sure like to have that gift of energy you hyperactive types have" but honestly, never being able to relax is hard. Not being able to sit still, pacing, fiddling, talking. You can talk to yourself "I will not talk, I'll have a very low voice, I'll do this and that and all the right things this time!"

Then you fail, and then you fail again and again and again. This man doesn't need a stern talking to about his moral failure to be a 'good person'.

It's so deeply saddening to me when I see this kind of advice given over symptomatic behaviour. Classically symptomatic at that. The 'friend' has no one else, and you don't have a problem telling his only friend, well tell him to shape up or I'm dumping you to the curb?


This person may never change, meds tend not to work so well on the impulsivity or the emotional regulation when it's severe. He might consider talking to his friend about a med adjustment because if there was no one to let him know how he's doing he may simply know something is wrong but not what. To gently tell a life long friend some real hard truths and have it done with some real compassion is not unreasonable. Adhd has ruined this man's life and this is his only and last friend.

I strongly recommend for him to be spoken with, to be told what it's like, and probably not in person because he'll become very emotional and things will excalate. Write him a personal e-mail, show compassion, tell him what it's really like around him, the sea of noise, the chaos he is surrounded by. Be blunt but kind, don't euphemize too much often people who can't pick up on social tues also don't get muted language. It might take you some time editing things, but letting him know you care, that you value him will help him here the hard stuff. It might also give him the words he's never been able to put together by himself to talk with his doc about ohis problem, his doc sees him in an office not real life, and can only go by what he observes and is told. Articulating adhd is very hard to do.

The reason you want to do this in an e-mail is because of processing time. Anxiety fuels fear and then defensiveness and anger, and then nothing actually really gets heard or said. With a sincere and heartfelt e-mail letting him know that he needs help, that he needs to see his doctor, that his meds just aren't enough. He needs to hear that, an e-mail gives him that processing time, it could take DAYS before he can really see what you're saying and for him to quell the anxiety enough to listen reasonably and fairly. Give him that time as a show of respect for what he is dealing with.

ADHD can really suck sometimes.

I know this was a long post but ... every word of it was well worth quoting and re-reading.

As someone who experiences many of the same symptoms you mention and knowing I have a lot of Autistic traits, I just want to say :goodpost:

Lunacie
01-06-14, 12:27 PM
saying someone with adhd should be willing to try and change is the same as saying someone who is blind should just try and read a book like his sight worthy friends.

Another :goodpost:

I'm not blind but I am extremely nearsighted. I have trouble seeing even with
glasses, especially in my peripheral vision. People have told me that I just
need to turn my head/shoulders further ... but I'm not a damn owl. There is
always something in my peripheral vision, no matter how far I turn my head
or body to see.

I make do, and I compensate by wearing thick glasses and turning my head
as far as possible (which the chiropractor told me is about 66% of normal
range), and having someone judge me as having given up because I'm not
trying harder to compensate is frustrating and angering. :mad:

And then I get grief for not handing my feelings better. :doh:

Rebelyell
01-06-14, 12:49 PM
I talk alot an alot of people have been rude n say you know you talk too much n too loud! That normally use to bother me but now I got the Fu too buddy n will talk even more n louder knowing it bothers someone.

Nicksgonefishin
01-06-14, 01:05 PM
saying someone with adhd should be willing to try and change is the same as saying someone who is blind should just try and read a book like his sight worthy friends.

Most blind people don't refuse to use a cane or flat refuse to try and learn braille to read.

Giving up and not trying is a choice.

Anastasia
01-06-14, 01:49 PM
can't help but be emotional about this topic and I have trouble modulating my tone when emotional so please know that I think you're great.

I don't know how else to say this except to just lay it on the line. This man is my age, a little older. I was diagnosed at 4 yrs of age. Back in the day kids like is we're run out of school. Accommodations did not exist. Little was known about adhd and common wisdom was to shame and beat it out of us.

This guy has likely been thru dozens of jobs. He's been socially shunned, he's been beaten down for many years. He doesn't work at his own company because he'a just so creative, it's because he can't work with people because he can't meet their social expectations.

When you have social disability it totally ****s your life. I watch as to this day parents saying, my kid has no friends but I don't want to put him on mess because he's doing good academically. You can be a freaking genius, do your job better than anyone else but if people think you're weird they will find a way for you to get fired. You will be socially isolated and lose your friends.

The social deficits that come with adhd are disabling in serious ways and yet even on an adhd forum people say, "can't be just adhd!".

Negative. I despise that label. What an awesome way to invalidate another. The truth is. I have tried so hard all my life, I'm a fighter and I've been called negative many times.

Sure if he could afford it maybe he could pay a hundred dollars a week for therapy and after a few years have a better attitude, maybe a therapist could build up his self esteem so he's willing to keep trying, and I'm betting he is. That he's not doing so with a perky attitude is not cause for blame.

Why do we think therapy can fix social deficits? Hyperactivity and impulsivity are disabling, it's the same as forgetting. These are symptoms. When people say 'if you loved me you wouldn't forget. Now. You can make a sticky and put it on your steering wheel that says don't forget to get milk. Tell me what you do when you go to work dreading that you'll do something another finds unpardonable, that today is the day you'll break the camels back?


For social deficits there are few helpful tips. It barely even gets mentioned on this forum. Medication at 40 doesn't make you understand all the social stuff you don't get. You don't know what to do and everything you've tried including back flips and it doesn't get better?

At a certain point all this ducking cheery positivity is just more social correction and etiquette. And once again you fail. Are our whole lives to be sacrificed on the altar of "wellness". Try this intervention and that intervention no no, you can't be exhausted and you sure as hell can't be unapologetically yourself. To be yourself is giving up, it's negative.

I have said and will continue to say adhd is a disability, and normal people have some changing to do too in the area of acceptance. I don't actually expect them to but duck me if I'm going to spend my remaining 20 years bowing and scraping for a favor that I'm very unlikely to get.

So, I say move over, you can make room for me too! It's just as much a civil rights issue to me

So, maybe saying accept me as I am is not such a horror. Maybe at 50 Yrs old we've earned the right to say. "I'm too tired to go sit in the back of the bus. You move.

I'm still struggling socially and I still get penalized even here. Disdain, contempt, I feel them for my "unacceptable" lack of restraint. I still don't have a road map, I still don't have answers and I do get dawned tires of the expected happy attitude.

People like happy slaves too, see? They're happy!

This is amazing ginnie, so much of what you said hit home.

It's hit or miss if I used the "quote" feature correctly, I hope it worked.

So often I would drive to work with a strange and very uncomfortable feeling of not trusting myself. Almost like what is "she" going to do or say today? No matter what position you held, administrator, CEO, DNS , whatever. I could not predict what I may say if I felt convicted of something important to me. I could not make the healthy adjustments that people made in their attitude if there was an emotional climate change. What I thought was ok was "unpardonable" for many.

I had a childhood friend, who in retrospect was suffering badly with "severe" a.d.h.d if severe exists or is it just additional deficits, I don't know. If you referred to him today, you would hear, he was a little "devil", just a really nasty, hyperactive child. His grades and academics puzzled them, he was very intelligent and went on to a reputable HS and college. However he was always doing something so dangerous, seeking an adrenaline rush. It was like watching an episode of "Jack A**" that's the best way to explain it.

We lost touch, I was contacted when a mutual friend heard news he had passed away. Of course I asked how? When he told me how, I was really taken back. It was an unfortunate accident associated with the same behavior he displayed as a child. Done in excess and considered dangerous, I'm sure. I often wonder is this an extreme outcome of untreated a.d.d. Normally the accident would be such a shock to hear, but for us who knew him, it made very sad sense.

VeryTired
01-06-14, 02:21 PM
Friends--

Since only one person posting here actually knows Tim, of course what are are talking about is mostly not him. We are talking about ourselves, our struggles, our fears, our pain, our frustrations with ourselves and with others. It's an important conversation.

I am impressed that more than one strong point of view is eloquently expressed here. In reading along here, I hit the thanks button impartially for posts that countered each other forcefully, because I am grateful for both sides of the discussion. It seems clear to me that everything being said here is true--all. We are talking about complicated stuff, so it's not surprising that there's a wide spectrum of truth.

I don't think I've ever read a thread on ADD Forums that wasn't useful in some way, but this is one is exceptionally, outstandingly valuable. It covers its own specific topic effectively, and it also encompasses a lot of broader and significant issues as well. And it does all this unusually directly, clearly, powerfully. I'm pretty sure that everyone reading here knows all this, but I just wanted to come out and say it anyway, and to offer more explicit thanks to everyone who's participating. This is how we change the world by building understanding. My hat is off to all of you who've posted here.

Lunacie
01-06-14, 03:20 PM
Most blind people don't refuse to use a cane or flat refuse to try and learn braille to read.

Giving up and not trying is a choice.

Neither do most ADHDers refuse to try. :umm1:

We try our little hearts out as children and often are criticized or blamed for not doing better.

We keep trying, we finish high school, we either try going to college or working a job or raising a family.

When we are still criticized for not doing well enough and we just can't meet all those expectations ...

then we are criticized and blamed for giving up or refusing to try to please others anymore.

*big sigh*

It may look like I've given up or stopped trying - but I'll thank others not to make such a judgment
when others don't know -without-any-doubt- that I've given up or stopped trying.

ana futura
01-06-14, 03:39 PM
Most blind people don't refuse to use a cane or flat refuse to try and learn braille to read.

Giving up and not trying is a choice.

The part you are missing is that appearing to "give up and not try" is actually a big part of the disorder, for many of us.

Unfortunately there are too many things lumped into the one category of ADHD. So I think for some people with the dx, they think they "get it", but they really have no idea what the disorder is like for some of us.

ana futura
01-06-14, 03:53 PM
So often I would drive to work with a strange and very uncomfortable feeling of not trusting myself. Almost like what is "she" going to do or say today? No matter what position you held, administrator, CEO, DNS , whatever. I could not predict what I may say if I felt convicted of something important to me. I could not make the healthy adjustments that people made in their attitude if there was an emotional climate change. What I thought was ok was "unpardonable" for many.

This is what I have felt like my whole life. When I take stimulant medication, I can literally feel "self control" manifest itself. I feel like I have agency and autonomy- sensations I have never felt, not once, prior to my diagnosis.

Everything in my life before meds was a mystery- how is this going to go? Will I say something stupid and screw this up again?

Every time I started a new job, I hoped that I would be able to not say stupid things to my coworkers this time, and not have to leave 6 months in after I made everything awkward. I literally had a prayer ritual when I started a new job - "please stay normal at this job, maybe this will be the job where I don't start acting inappropriately".

I had externalized everything as a coping mechanism- I often blamed the jobs and other employees for making me act weird: "Oh, that person asks me the wrong questions, it's their fault I said that stupid thing." Externalization of the feeling of an absence of self control was the only way I could manage- if I had internalized things I probably would have killed myself.

It's so hard to explain to other people, that feeling of really wanting yourself to not do something, but then going and doing it anyway- over and over and over again.


Unfortunately as I acclimate to meds that sensation of autonomy gets weaker and weaker. ADHD is of course not curable, and a lack of self control (impulsivity!) is the heart of my disorder. If I had self control, I would not have ADHD.

Nicksgonefishin
01-06-14, 04:08 PM
Neither do most ADHDers refuse to try. :umm1:

We try our little hearts out as children and often are criticized or blamed for not doing better.

We keep trying, we finish high school, we either try going to college or working a job or raising a family.

When we are still criticized for not doing well enough and we just can't meet all those expectations ...

then we are criticized and blamed for giving up or refusing to try to please others anymore.

*big sigh*

It may look like I've given up or stopped trying - but I'll thank others not to make such a judgment
when others don't know -without-any-doubt- that I've given up or stopped trying.

The key word there was "willingness". I fully understand that trying to combat and manage ADHD is extremely difficult and many that try so very hard to do so often fail.

The truely sad and damaging nasty part is when people are no longer willing to try to manage.

"I am who I am deal with it" Is only socially acceptable if your actions are socially acceptable.

Expecting society to bend and compensate when you have a treatable issue is a very very unfair expectation! It would be nice if society had a better understanding of adhd but when our symptoms effect others this isn't right. When we get hyper focused or inattentive to the point where we unintentionally/unknowingly neglect our jobs, health, schooling, relationships and the sadest of all our children... how does one even go about explaining that to a child nevermind society?

"I'm sorry mommy doesn't consistantly tell you she loves your pay attention to you and your wants and needs because she is so busy trying to control and take care of herself because she has given up on treatment". "Why did dad snap at me when I asked what he was doing? All I said was hello?" "Mom never has enough TIME for me" Can you imagine the message that says to a child? I'm not important enough for you to be open to even try mom/dad?

And the child has a very high hereditary perpensity to having ADHD and is sent this message their whole life that they should try harder but watch mom/dad refuse to try. All the missed cues back and forth and the yelling and abuse that ensues! This only perpetuates the cycle!

My ADHD is just that MINE! I don't expect anyone to compensate for me. I do know one thing thought. This cycle ends with me. I will do everything in my power to educate others so they have the awareness to be given the chance to try! In the end the choice is theirs and if they make the choice not to try then it is on them not me.

A little understanding and forgiveness from those close to me is nice but I can't control them and force them do so.

As for obstaining and distancing myself from a toxic person this is a personal choice! I don't blame all the people that came into my life and left because of my negative attitude. They sensed the negativity, they felt it, they seen it, they've met the wrath! I was toxic and they stepped away. When it comes to MY mental health making the choice to step away is sometimes the best one.

Since I have, as my dad would say, "pulled my head out of my *****" I have renewed lost friendships and made many more than I ever thought possible.

Detachment with love doesn't mean shutting someone completely out of your life. But rather loving them from a distance in hopes that they gain some perspective. Detachment with love means caring enough about others to allow them to learn from their mistakes. It also means being responsible for our own welfare and making decisions without ulterior motives-the desire to control others.

Enabling doesn't do anybody any good and can even worsen symptoms.

Giving up on treatment at any age isn't the way to go... The simple fact that someone would log on here is proof that they want to be better.

Feed that want! Tell self doubt to stuff it!

Nicksgonefishin
01-06-14, 04:41 PM
The part you are missing is that appearing to "give up and not try" is actually a big part of the disorder, for many of us.

Unfortunately there are too many things lumped into the one category of ADHD. So I think for some people with the dx, they think they "get it", but they really have no idea what the disorder is like for some of us.

Giving up and not trying is not a part of the disorder.

It is a resulting mindset or attitude resulting in trying and failing for so long. My point is it doesn't have to be this way. There is hope. Sweet sweet glorious hope. Just ask any innatentive that has ever bought a lottery ticket. They have hope that those wild dreams will come true.

If that was true one could also say that there is an element of optimism to the disorder as well. I prefer not to give that kind of credit to my disorder. My optomism is MINE! Just as my pessimism was.

If giving up and not trying was a part of the disorder we wouldn't even have tried as children.

BellaVita
01-06-14, 04:46 PM
Nick - the fact that we have emotional deregulation and lack of self-control makes it, by definition, NOT a choice where we can "be optimistic" about something that ISN'T going to change!

And not all of us have the luxury of being medicated

Lunacie
01-06-14, 04:46 PM
The key word there was "willingness". I fully understand that trying to combat and manage ADHD is extremely difficult and many that try so very hard to do so often fail.

The truely sad and damaging nasty part is when people are no longer willing to try to manage.

"I am who I am deal with it" Is only socially acceptable if your actions are socially acceptable.

Expecting society to bend and compensate when you have a treatable issue is a very very unfair expectation! It would be nice if society had a better understanding of adhd but when our symptoms effect others this isn't right. When we get hyper focused or inattentive to the point where we unintentionally/unknowingly neglect our jobs, health, schooling, relationships and the sadest of all our children... how does one even go about explaining that to a child nevermind society?

"I'm sorry mommy doesn't consistantly tell you she loves your pay attention to you and your wants and needs because she is so busy trying to control and take care of herself because she has given up on treatment". "Why did dad snap at me when I asked what he was doing? All I said was hello?" "Mom never has enough TIME for me" Can you imagine the message that says to a child? I'm not important enough for you to be open to even try mom/dad?

And the child has a very high hereditary perpensity to having ADHD and is sent this message their whole life that they should try harder but watch mom/dad refuse to try. All the missed cues back and forth and the yelling and abuse that ensues! This only perpetuates the cycle!

My ADHD is just that MINE! I don't expect anyone to compensate for me. I do know one thing thought. This cycle ends with me. I will do everything in my power to educate others so they have the awareness to be given the chance to try! In the end the choice is theirs and if they make the choice not to try then it is on them not me.

A little understanding and forgiveness from those close to me is nice but I can't control them and force them do so.

As for obstaining and distancing myself from a toxic person this is a personal choice! I don't blame all the people that came into my life and left because of my negative attitude. They sensed the negativity, they felt it, they seen it, they've met the wrath! I was toxic and they stepped away. When it comes to MY mental health making the choice to step away is sometimes the best one.

Since I have, as my dad would say, "pulled my head out of my *****" I have renewed lost friendships and made many more than I ever thought possible.

Detachment with love doesn't mean shutting someone completely out of your life. But rather loving them from a distance in hopes that they gain some perspective. Detachment with love means caring enough about others to allow them to learn from their mistakes. It also means being responsible for our own welfare and making decisions without ulterior motives-the desire to control others.

Enabling doesn't do anybody any good and can even worsen symptoms.

Giving up on treatment at any age isn't the way to go... The simple fact that someone would log on here is proof that they want to be better.

Feed that want! Tell self doubt to stuff it!

The word "willingness" wasn't in your post that I quoted. You said "refuse to try."

But from the outside it is usually impossible to tell whether someone is trying or not, or even how hard they are trying.


Socially acceptable?

The following is written about telling those with Autism that they need to fit in - they need to be socially acceptable.
It's a very good read, I'll just share a bit here ...

Oh, wait, I know: socially inappropriate stims are ones that draw attention to us. If you rock in public, people will stare.

And whose problem is that?

Try out these sentences instead:

If you sign in public, people will stare.

If you use your wheelchair in public, people will stare.

If you limp in public, people will stare.

If you use your assistance dog in public, people will stare.


And if people do stare, other people will think they’re rude. Who would tell a Deaf person not to sign in public or a paraplegic not to use their wheelchair in public?

But people tell autistic kids not to stim in public all the time. Again and again I see conversations and articles insisting that stimming – or if they’re trying to be politically correct, certain types of stimming – isn’t appropriate public behavior.

Really? And why is that? Who exactly does stimming embarrass? Not the autistic person who’s doing it.

*

Stimming happens. It’s not something autistic people choose to do.

Controlling it is like playing whack-a-mole. Stop it over here and it’s just going to pop back up over there. Whack it enough times and it’s going to go underground and rip up your entire yard.

http://musingsofanaspie.com/2013/07/24/socially-inappropriate/

Just something to think about - or not. That's what is called "a choice."

BellaVita
01-06-14, 04:48 PM
Sometimes, when someone has a disorder that causes them to fail EACH time they try - yeah I guess that can be seen as "the person is in a bad mind set, they're not CHOOSING to change!"

Yeah choose to change = no ADHD

Sorry not trying to be rude just my point of view....

BellaVita
01-06-14, 04:51 PM
Nick, maybe with your specific ADHD - *you* have the choice to be optimistic.

But please try to be open minded.

Maybe our ADHD is different - where we can't easily "make the choice" to be optimistic?

Is that conceivable?

Nicksgonefishin
01-06-14, 05:07 PM
Willingness was in sarahs post which I quoted in my post. ;)

I used "Rufuse to try" as a synonym for "unwillingness"

Making a true posting about something off topic(switching from adhd to autism) doesn't negate my post or sway my opinion though I realize they are very related.

I certainly hope that verbally abusing or emotionally neglecting others(unintended or otherwise) never becomes socially acceptable.

I hope that my over all theme THAT THERE IS HOPE is not lost on others reading this.

"Only thing we have to fear is fear itself"-FDR

ginniebean
01-06-14, 05:11 PM
Giving up and not trying is not a part of the disorder.

OK, we have it reported that one adhd said 'I give up there is no pleasing you people" Let's ASSUME he has never tried, isn't trying now, and is saying he will never try again? Why are we assuming this?



It is a resulting mindset or attitude resulting in trying and failing for so long. My point is it doesn't have to be this way. There is hope. Sweet sweet glorious hope. Just ask any innatentive that has ever bought a lottery ticket. They have hope that those wild dreams will come true.

Now if a person with adhd is reported to have made the unforgivable sin of saying "I give up" clearly we should assume he has none and refuses to ever again? What planet is this from? I"m almost at an "I give up" in this thread. Wtf.

Ana said adhd often presents with the APPEARANCE Of not trying. This is why we're told when we forget to try harder because people cannot see how hard we are trying.



If that was true one could also say that there is an element of optimism to the disorder as well. I prefer not to give that kind of credit to my disorder. My optomism is MINE! Just as my pessimism was.

You show me one NT that has tried for 50 Yrs and failed and still tries? I'm crazy optimistic but getting frustrated and saying duck it is not a dawned crime! Adhd is chronic the fight is life long can we be a little realistic that it's healthy even sometimes to say, "I give up?" to take a break to recharge to carry on walking up the down escalator. Let's get real. You want to say you won't have down times. Will never feel hopeless frustration.

It was reported once and you have made up a story about this guys whole life. His attitudes. Why?


If giving up and not trying was a part of the disorder we wouldn't even have tried as children.


You know what? Every human being has felt like this. And my guess is most have said it out loud. Can we please join the human race too without a lecture about attitude?

Lunacie
01-06-14, 05:11 PM
Willingness was in sarahs post which I quoted in my post. ;)

I used "Rufuse to try" as a synonym for "unwillingness"

Making a true posting about something off topic(switching from adhd to autism) doesn't negate my post or sway my opinion though I realize they are very related.

I certainly hope that verbally abusing or emotionally neglecting others(unintended or otherwise) never becomes socially acceptable.

I hope that my over all theme THAT THERE IS HOPE is not lost on others reading this.

"Only thing we have to fear is fear itself"-FDR

Please correct me if I'm wrong, I thought your point was "There is hope as long as you're willing to try."

My response was "You can't tell whether someone else is trying or not, nor how hard they're trying."

Even if they say they've given up, if they're still breathing they're still trying.

BellaVita
01-06-14, 05:23 PM
Please correct me if I'm wrong, I thought your point was "There is hope as long as you're willing to try."

My response was "You can't tell whether someone else is trying or not, nor how hard they're trying."

Even if they say they've given up, if they're still breathing they're still trying.

This. :goodpost:

Nicksgonefishin
01-06-14, 05:37 PM
Hope doesn't have a chance if one isn't willing to try. How does that go? "S*** in one hand and hope in the other and see which one fills up first". Trying is what fills that other hand.(and presumably not with S***)

I guess we may be talking about 2 different things in respects to trying...

Trying to handle your symptoms on your own is one thing. I realize that this is impossible!

Having the willingness and openess to try treatment is another or yet another and another type of treatment as so many have done.

It is very hard for me to have empathy for those who have a diagnosis and access to treatment but give up on it or simply refuse it. These are the only 2 gifts afforded to ADHDers one would be very remissed not to take advantage of them. I understand many out there don't even get these.

BellaVita
01-06-14, 05:41 PM
Hope doesn't have a chance if one isn't willing to try. How does that go? "S*** in one hand and hope in the other and see which one fills up first". Trying is what fills that other hand.(and presumably not with S***)

I guess we may be talking about 2 different things in respects to trying...

Trying to handle your symptoms on your own is one thing. I realize that this is impossible!

Having the willingness and openess to try treatment is another or yet another and another type of treatment as so many have done.

It is very hard for me to have empathy for those who have a diagnosis and access to treatment but give up on it or simply refuse it. These are the only 2 gifts afforded to ADHDers one would be very remissed not to take advantage of them. I understand many out there don't even get these.

What if ADHD is skewing the person's perception so much that they refuse treatment?

It has nothing to do with moral failing.....

More like, COGNITIVE FAILING.

Which makes perfect sense.

Nick, what if some of us are incapable of trying?

Nicksgonefishin
01-06-14, 05:47 PM
OK, we have it reported that one adhd said 'I give up there is no pleasing you people" Let's ASSUME he has never tried, isn't trying now, and is saying he will never try again? Why are we assuming this?




Now if a person with adhd is reported to have made the unforgivable sin of saying "I give up" clearly we should assume he has none and refuses to ever again? What planet is this from? I"m almost at an "I give up" in this thread. Wtf.

Ana said adhd often presents with the APPEARANCE Of not trying. This is why we're told when we forget to try harder because people cannot see how hard we are trying.



You show me one NT that has tried for 50 Yrs and failed and still tries? I'm crazy optimistic but getting frustrated and saying duck it is not a dawned crime! Adhd is chronic the fight is life long can we be a little realistic that it's healthy even sometimes to say, "I give up?" to take a break to recharge to carry on walking up the down escalator. Let's get real. You want to say you won't have down times. Will never feel hopeless frustration.

It was reported once and you have made up a story about this guys whole life. His attitudes. Why?




You know what? Every human being has felt like this. And my guess is most have said it out loud. Can we please join the human race too without a lecture about attitude?

Perhaps a new thread should be made as I veered away from the OP long ago and into the philisophical generalities.

I made no assumptions about his life.

A message of hope has been percieved as a "lecture on attitude"... Sadly a negative perception. I see if one attached negative emotion to my postings they could view it as such.

Lunacie
01-06-14, 05:50 PM
Hope doesn't have a chance if one isn't willing to try. How does that go? "S*** in one hand and hope in the other and see which one fills up first". Trying is what fills that other hand.(and presumably not with S***)

I guess we may be talking about 2 different things in respects to trying...

Trying to handle your symptoms on your own is one thing. I realize that this is impossible!

Having the willingness and openess to try treatment is another or yet another and another type of treatment as so many have done.

It is very hard for me to have empathy for those who have a diagnosis and access to treatment but give up on it or simply refuse it. These are the only 2 gifts afforded to ADHDers one would be very remissed not to take advantage of them. I understand many out there don't even get these.

I'm still not getting this.

WHO exactly is not trying?

WHY do you think that person isn't trying?

HOW do you know whether they are trying or not?

And WHO are you to judge whether I or anyone else is trying enough?


PS, I'm all for encouraging someone you care about, assuring them that there are things they can do and that you'd be glad to help.

But that's not what I'm seeing here. I'm seeing judgments being made.

Nicksgonefishin
01-06-14, 06:02 PM
Bella-If ADHD incapacitates the ability to try why do I keep posting TRYING to get my message across?

Lunacie-See my response to ginnie.

BellaVita
01-06-14, 06:05 PM
Bella-If ADHD incapacitates the ability to try why do I keep posting TRYING to get my message across?

Lunacie-See my response to ginnie.

I didn't say it did for you

Obviously that is not the case

I meant - for SOME

SOME are incapable of trying, DUE to their ADHD. :)

Nicksgonefishin
01-06-14, 06:11 PM
I didn't say it did for you

Obviously that is not the case

I meant - for SOME

SOME are incapable of trying, DUE to their ADHD. :)


I didn't take it personally. Maybe its the word incapable that I had issue with.

I fully agree that some are unwilling to try. But incapable of trying? I fervently disagree.

Lunacie
01-06-14, 06:43 PM
Bella-If ADHD incapacitates the ability to try why do I keep posting TRYING to get my message across?

Lunacie-See my response to ginnie.


The opposite of hope is despair. I'm seeing an invalidation of despair, a judgement for feeling despair.

I get it that you need to hold some kind of hope. I'm not trying to invalidate that.

But it's not a moral failure to struggle to have any hope.

Nicksgonefishin
01-06-14, 06:58 PM
The opposite of hope is despair. I'm seeing an invalidation of despair, a judgement for feeling despair.

I get it that you need to hold some kind of hope. I'm not trying to invalidate that.

But it's not a moral failure to struggle to have any hope.

Even in despair there is hope.

I'm not trying to say it is socially unacceptable to be without hope. Or despair is unacceptable but rather there is hope that one can come and rise from a place of despair.

The socially unacceptable part is the outward percieved manifestation of adhd.

Lunacie
01-06-14, 07:01 PM
Even in despair there is hope.

I'm not trying to say it is socially unacceptable to be without hope. Or despair is unacceptable but rather there is hope that one can come and rise from a place of despair.

The socially unacceptable part is the outward percieved manifestation of adhd.

Gods, I hate to quibble over semantics but the dictionary definition is

despair: 1.feeling of hopelessness: a profound feeling that there is no hope

If you've never felt true despair then I'm happy for you.

I've felt it and there was no hope,
there was only the knowledge that I could not leave such a legacy to my daughter if I killed myself.

Therefore I thought about killing both of us. That's despair.

stef
01-06-14, 07:08 PM
in severe depression the "thing" that makes a person try to feel better, isnt working right
so yes, someone can literally be incapable of trying

ana futura
01-06-14, 07:33 PM
If giving up and not trying was a part of the disorder we wouldn't even have tried as children.

As Ginnie pointed out, the operative word in that sentence was "appear".

But it's also worth pointing out that I often didn't "try" as a child. Many people tried to make me- I simply refused to do things. I have an assignment book from second or third grade, where we had short daily writing exercises in class.

Some days I wrote things (I assume when the assignment was interesting), other days I drew something instead of writing, and about half of the days I left the page blank after the prompt, or I wrote "sorry", "I don't know", or "out of brain power". My teachers and my parents tried their hardest to figure out what was wrong- but nothing could "fix" me, and I seemed to do okay and understand the material even though I flat out refused to do any work. Punishment went nowhere.

I was like an eight year old Bartleby the Scrivener- which just so happened to be my favorite story in high school.

Usually that story depresses people- but I identified so much with Bartleby (who was likely a catatonic schizophrenic) that I actually found the story empowering.

ginniebean
01-06-14, 07:39 PM
Perhaps a new thread should be made as I veered away from the OP long ago and into the philisophical generalities.

I made no assumptions about his life.

A message of hope has been percieved as a "lecture on attitude"... Sadly a negative perception. I see if one attached negative emotion to my postings they could view it as such.



Yes, could be. I can say this. I have yet to meet the person with adhd who has stopped trying permanently. I have met the "stuck", the "bewildered" the "beaten down". The "confused.

I've met a lot of people who say this person won't try when I think they should and I think they can. But never one who has fully given up.

Nicksgonefishin
01-06-14, 07:48 PM
Ana-When I'm refering to trying I mean to try treatment.

I'm not talking about the internal struggle to try and stop impulses.

Stef-That is true for severe depression.

But long ago in this thread commorbids resulting from untreated ADHD were denied.

ADHD itself doesn't take away ones ability to try.

BellaVita
01-06-14, 07:50 PM
ADHD itself doesn't take away ones ability to try.

Yes, it often does......

Lunacie
01-06-14, 08:19 PM
Ana-When I'm refering to trying I mean to try treatment.

I'm not talking about the internal struggle to try and stop impulses.

Stef-That is true for severe depression.

But long ago in this thread commorbids resulting from untreated ADHD were denied.

ADHD itself doesn't take away ones ability to try.

I wondered if you meant stop trying treatment -
my granddaughter has chosen to stop treatment, at least for now.

She's tried four different meds in less than four years.
One was great but didn't give all day coverage.
Two caused absolutely horrible side effects.
The last one made her feel weird and "not herself."

I still have hope, and occasionally suggest trying another med,
but I do not attempt to make her feel guilty for not trying.

If she hadn't tried at all, it would be different,
but I don't think I've ever met anyone who didn't try at all.

Have you?

APSJ
01-06-14, 09:05 PM
Thread re-opened.

Please note that the discussion is drifting from the original topic, and please try to make posts responsive to it. Members are welcome to start a new thread following up on other topics raised here.