View Full Version : ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul


Mystery_man
01-06-14, 04:18 PM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2534632/ADHD-doesnt-exist-Neurologist-claims-condition-masking-problems-causing-needless-use-addictive-drugs.html

Amtram
01-06-14, 06:23 PM
That article is. . .all over the place. It doesn't exist, but some kids who have it aren't getting treated and the drugs are bad but overdiagnosis is keeping the drugs away from kids who need them, and we don't want overdiagnosis to make people skeptical about a very real condition. . .

Ow, my head!

eclectic beagle
01-06-14, 06:27 PM
Is this from the same neurologist who said he saw heaven?

dvdnvwls
01-06-14, 06:37 PM
In my opinion it is sensationalism for anyone to even consider publishing this. If he had published it himself under his own name, it would have been deservedly ignored.

Lunacie
01-06-14, 06:55 PM
That article is. . .all over the place. It doesn't exist, but some kids who have it aren't getting treated and the drugs are bad but overdiagnosis is keeping the drugs away from kids who need them, and we don't want overdiagnosis to make people skeptical about a very real condition. . .

Ow, my head!

I think the contradictions are coming from different people - that wasn't made as clear as it could have been in the article.

He claims that ADHD is nothing more than a collection of symptoms and not a disease.

Wouldn't that rule out almost every diagnosis in the DSM?

Aren't most diseases diagnosed by first looking at the symptoms that are present?
Then tests are done if possible to confirm or rule out the diagnosis.

The problem with all these deniers is that there aren't yet any tests that can confirm or rule out the diagnosis of ADHD.

sulfurousIo_4
01-06-14, 06:59 PM
... It's from the Daily Mail. Frankly I never take anything I see from that newspaper seriously.

Fraser_0762
01-06-14, 07:04 PM
The problem with the ADHD diagnosis is that it consists of nothing more than a quick evaluation and multiple choice questionnaire. (which I assume parents fill out on behalf of their children)

The issue is that the list of symptoms that make up ADHD can quite easily be caused by other factors. Other possible factors seem to be getting ignored more and more these days, which may be a resulting factor in the steep increase in ADHD diagnosis(es) over the last decade.

There's no doubting that ADHD is a very real disorder, but there is also no doubting that it quite probably gets diagnosed a lot, when other possible factors are generally over looked.

Lunacie
01-06-14, 07:13 PM
The problem with the ADHD diagnosis is that it consists of nothing more than a quick evaluation and multiple choice questionnaire. (which I assume parents fill out on behalf of their children)

The issue is that the list of symptoms that make up ADHD can quite easily be caused by other factors. Other possible factors seem to be getting ignored more and more these days, which may be a resulting factor in the steep increase in ADHD diagnosis(es) over the last decade.

There's no doubting that ADHD is a very real disorder, but there is also no doubting that it quite probably gets diagnosed a lot, when other possible factors are generally over looked.

On the other hand, ADHD is also misdiagnosed as any or all of those other problems. Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

It's a tricky business, getting the diagnosis right, and getting the right diagnosis, innit?

Fraser_0762
01-06-14, 07:17 PM
On the other hand, ADHD is also misdiagnosed as any or all of those other problems. Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

It's a tricky business, getting the diagnosis right, and getting the right diagnosis, innit?

Correct. But the diagnosis you're seeking, will generally be the diagnosis that you get.

For example, if you have difficulties with concentration, memory and motivation and you request to be evaluated for ADHD, then you'll get a diagnosis for ADHD, because the questionnaire is based on the symptoms you have, not the actual cause of the symptoms.

If you have difficulties with concentration, memory and motivation and you request to be evaluated for Depression, then you'll end up with a diagnosis for depression, because again, the questionaire is based around the symptoms you have, instead of getting to the core cause of the symptoms.

I hope i'm making sense here.

ChrissiADHD
01-06-14, 07:22 PM
I read this on Facebook this morning and was floored by the comments calling parents of children with add/adhd "lazy" "uninvolved" and that the children are just spoiled brats that need "a whooping" "spankings" and "discipline". I was so upset. I was just recently diagnosed at the age of 38. I was raised with my grandparents being of the generation where children are to be seen not heard, speak when spoken to and "discipline" was key. I don't think I have to explain what my childhood was like. After over 1,000 of these comments I finally responded, "I guess I wasn't beat enough as a child for not being able to take verbal cues or verbal instructions, gazing off, interrupting not being able to control compulsions and perhaps when I still daydream or lose focus while someone is talking to me they should just take off their belt and whip me, that should solve my problems. And I was beat as a child BECAUSE of my ADHD and it only caused other serious issues such as PTSD and deep depressions, debilitating anxiety leading to a very problematic adulthood with many relationships lost, jobs lost, and self medicating and always in conflict with my own family, ultimately leading to a serious nervous and emotional break down! Had my family been educated on ADHD and aware what was going on with me, I know they wouldn't have hit me, it was all they knew. So for all of those that think beating a child with a belt, spoon, and spanking often, please advise these parents now of how hard and much force should they use during these beating? What is the best weapon to use when giving these "discipline" lessons? How long should the beatings last and often until the child will be able to control their brain chemicals so that they can sit still?" I am just shaking.

Lunacie
01-06-14, 07:26 PM
Correct. But the diagnosis you're seeking, will generally be the diagnosis that you get.

For example, if you have difficulties with concentration, memory and motivation and you request to be evaluated for ADHD, then you'll get a diagnosis for ADHD, because the questionnaire is based on the symptoms you have, not the actual cause of the symptoms.

If you have difficulties with concentration, memory and motivation and you request to be evaluated for Depression, then you'll end up with a diagnosis for depression, because again, the questionaire is based around the symptoms you have, instead of getting to the core cause of the symptoms.

I hope i'm making sense here.

But it's not that clear cut.

I couldn't guesstimate the number of people who have posted on this forum saying
that they were mistakenly diagnosed and treated for depression for many years
before someone finally realized they actually have ADHD.

It happens all across the board, more often than you may realize.

Years ago I went to the doctor with all the symptoms of migraine disorder, and a
family history of the same. But the doctor insisted I had sinus headache and treated
me for that for several years with no change, no improvement.

(I shoulda fired him, but the ADHD, depression and anxiety made it too difficult)

Fraser_0762
01-06-14, 07:30 PM
But it's not that clear cut.

I couldn't guesstimate the number of people who have posted on this forum saying
that they were mistakenly diagnosed and treated for depression for many years
before someone finally realized they actually have ADHD.

It happens all across the board, more often than you may realize.

Years ago I went to the doctor with all the symptoms of migraine disorder, and a
family history of the same. But the doctor insisted I had sinus headache and treated
me for that for several years with no change, no improvement.

(I shoulda fired him, but the ADHD, depression and anxiety made it too difficult)

It's not always a matter of a diagnosis you're seeking (i should have been clearer on that), but sometimes its down to the diagnosis your GP wants to give you, despite them being incorrect themselves.

The problem i'm trying to point out here is that too many of these so called "tests" aren't really tests at all. Because the questions contained in these tests could apply to a multitude of different disorders and the same questions could be found in evaluation questionaires of multiple disorders.

It's no wonder people with ADHD are often misdiagnosed with depression or vice versa. The questionaires are more or less the same.

Canadian Mess
01-06-14, 07:36 PM
By the logic of this doctor, I don't have PMDD, it's just a week before my period I suddenly blow up over mole hills, am paranoid and think everyone hates me, cry uncontrollably, and feel it's justifiable to stab a pencil in the back of a person that sets me off, feel like committing suicide and fall into depression.

It's not PMDD, it's just a bunch of random symptoms, you can't test for it . it's overdiagnosed, and misdiagnosed. It's probably something else

(complete sarcasm)

Lunacie
01-06-14, 08:11 PM
It's not always a matter of a diagnosis you're seeking (i should have been clearer on that), but sometimes its down to the diagnosis your GP wants to give you, despite them being incorrect themselves.

The problem i'm trying to point out here is that too many of these so called "tests" aren't really tests at all. Because the questions contained in these tests could apply to a multitude of different disorders and the same questions could be found in evaluation questionaires of multiple disorders.

It's no wonder people with ADHD are often misdiagnosed with depression or vice versa. The questionaires are more or less the same.

The only evaluation form I've filled out was for ADHD.
It also noted that I have cormormid depression, anxiety and autism-related traits.

Good doctors look at all the possibilities and choose which to begin treating.

Not-so-good doctors treat them all at once, making it very difficult to figure out
which med/treatment is actually helping or hurting.

Stevuke79
01-06-14, 08:28 PM
How is a disease defined other than by a collection if symptoms?

Tulip7171
01-06-14, 08:51 PM
How is a disease defined other than by a collection if symptoms?

If you can't do a blood, urine or fecal test for it, it's not a 'real' disease! Duh!
:rolleyes: ;) :doh:

Personally, I think these dr.s just have a body fluids fetish. :umm1: :giggle:

My sis has RA, the only way that is diagnosed is eliminating all the diseases they have physical tests for based on the symptoms, if those are negative, then the diagnosis is based on the symptoms. No one has ever doubted her diagnosis. Though I can tell by her attitude that she doubts mine. :scratch:

Amtram
01-06-14, 08:56 PM
The most unfortunate thing about this article, though, is that when you google the doctor's name, you get at least five pages of "ADHD is not real" hits. People remember that.

Stevuke79
01-06-14, 09:14 PM
:goodpost:
One of the fallacies that articles like these are based on is that other neurological diseases like autism, schizophrenia, depression etc, have biological markers.

When we have a biological marker or empirical test for a neurological condition, it's the exception, not the rule.

Lunacie
01-06-14, 09:35 PM
:goodpost:
One of the fallacies that articles like these are based on is that other neurological diseases like autism, schizophrenia, depression etc, have biological markers.

When we have a biological marker or empirical test for a neurological condition, it's the exception, not the rule.

Are you saying that there are known biological markers for autism, depression and schizophrenia?

Or are you saying that the idea there are such biological markers is a fallacy?

:scratch:

Amtram
01-06-14, 09:48 PM
I think SteveUke was probably thinking of biomarkers that work for diagnostic purposes. We've found lots of biomarkers for lots of things that clearly exist as problems, but not enough definitive ones to make a test that tells us "Yep, this is what you've got!"

dvdnvwls
01-06-14, 10:03 PM
How is a disease defined other than by a collection if symptoms?
By identifying its cause or direct evidence thereof. For example, in viral diseases, finding a high level of the virus, or a high level of antibodies to that virus.

Stevuke79
01-06-14, 10:06 PM
I think SteveUke was probably thinking of biomarkers that work for diagnostic purposes. We've found lots of biomarkers for lots of things that clearly exist as problems, but not enough definitive ones to make a test that tells us "Yep, this is what you've got!"

Exactly.

Are you saying that there are known biological markers for autism, depression and schizophrenia?
Or are you saying that the idea there are such biological markers is a fallacy? :scratch:

What Amtram said.

We do not have definitive and consistent biological markers for most neurological disorders. There are a few, but they are the exception. People got very excited when we were able to identify anorexia on a brain scan. In July of 2013 there was a big deal about a protein that could some day be used to identify depression with a blood test. But for most of them, while we may have identified potential biological markers, they are weak, subjective, inconsistent and clinically useless.

A lot of these articles talk about how ADHD is diagnosed a list of questions and interviews with a psychiatrist, and how that isn't scientific. They're hoping you'll assume that for most neurological disorders it's different.

Stevuke79
01-06-14, 10:07 PM
By identifying its cause or direct evidence thereof. For example, in viral diseases, finding a high level of the virus, or a high level of antibodies to that virus.

Right, so that's my point. We don't have anything like that for most neurological disorders. Even something as ostensibly "empirical" as ALS.

mischaelman
01-06-14, 10:36 PM
Even though neuro-pyschological testing can't be used to diagnose ADD directly, it is used to eliminate some conditions with similar symptoms.

Just as a physical and having blood samples taken can eliminate conditions with symptoms similar to ADHD.

Even though guidelines state symptoms usually appear between the ages of 6 and 12, it seems like doctors are too quick to diagnose. I've seen an article about schools screening the entire student body for ADHD that have resulted in many misdiagnosed students. The school district actually had to pay fines as a result.

A direct relationship exists between "qualified professionals" challenging the validity of ADHD and the media's coverage of escalating ADHD diagnosis and medication. It's become a "hot topic" for all the wrong reasons. Media covers it because it's controversial and pulls in viewers, not necessarily because it's factual.

This creates more stigma for those with ADHD and is responsible for the attitude that "everyone is a little ADHD." How else did the masses get to be experts?!?

Modafinilguy
01-07-14, 02:03 AM
Well definately an indepth diagnostic process is important.

Maybe there are "borderline" cases.

But I can tell you many serious cases of ADHD either go unrecognized or untreated.

For me, I mean the real motivation to access for ADHD, and get potential treatment, is if the person has serious functional difficulties that effect the quality of their lives and their ability to manage their lives.

The physical actuality of ADHD is well established, but we do not yet have the science to peak directly into the brains of single individuals and directly measure their neurotransmitter levels and level of brain functioning. But I do believe that in most peoples lifetimes, this will change significantly. Do NOT underestimate how the science is advancing, it iS advancing.

I know 3 main people that have been formally diagnosed with ADHD, and most certaily are full blown ADHD. For various reasons, including stigma, social pressure, and the lack of guidance by doctors, NONE of these people are receiving treatment whatsoever.

Literally in these people it is easy to see how their core ADHD traits impact their life. Especially impulsive and lack of motivation and focus on medium and long term goals. ALL OF THEM have suffered dramatic and consistent disadvantage due to impulsive behavior governing the direction of their lives.

Oh another person, separate from those, is a good friend of mine. She is very, very ADHD in all respects. But she is over 60, and she admits and knows that she fully meets ADHD criteria, but she won't seek treatment. She has lived her whole life in such a way, her disorganization is notorious. She doesn't know who she would be if she were different, even knows she does struggle quite dramatically.

Her daughter actually is yet another person diagnosed with ADHD. But in her early 20's her doctor found out she sometimes smoked marijuana and refused to continue to prescribe stimulant medication (she had a successful job and relationship).

Within 2 years of stopping the medication she fell into heavy alcoholism. She went to a new doctor who does not consider ADHD, and just prescribes her antidepressants which do not work at all. Its a few years later and she is a SEVERE, life threatening chronic alcoholic, she drinks 7-8 bottles of wine every day, and gets severe shakes and withdrawal if she goes without. Her alcoholism is KILLING HER. Her psychiatrist will not even try new medications, he has literally said "she does not want to improve or change", and has described her as a nuisance patient and blatantly told her he is on the verge of refusing to see her any more. He could not give a ****.

The truth is full blown ADHD in conjunction with co-related emotional problems can DESTROY peoples entire lives. Most the people I know with ADHD do not want to hear it. I know people with serious emotional problems (severe) that are not ADHD. I don't know why, but none of these people want to accept a medical model for their difficulties. I don't really understand why.

Anastasia
01-07-14, 03:19 AM
The cause "Poor sight, lack of sleep and a feeling of "life is getting the best of them"

Then new glasses, a nap and a better outlook may be a cure. Alright I'll give it a whirl!

Dizfriz
01-07-14, 10:17 AM
Fraser

Some points:

The problem with the ADHD diagnosis is that it consists of nothing more than a quick evaluation and multiple choice questionnaire. (which I assume parents fill out on behalf of their children) The current protocol (at least for children-for adults a similar method is usually used) involves a survey of behaviors for school and home which then are compared with others of that age group to get a percentile ranking of the individual compared with other children in respect to ADHD symptoms.

The issue is that the list of symptoms that make up ADHD can quite easily be caused by other factors. Other possible factors seem to be getting ignored more and more these days, which may be a resulting factor in the steep increase in ADHD diagnosis(es) over the last decade. A good assessment has to rule out other causes of the behaviors, it is part of the diagnostic protocol.

There's no doubting that ADHD is a very real disorder, but there is also no doubting that it quite probably gets diagnosed a lot, when other possible factors are generally over looked. According to the research I have read overall the current diagnostic protocol is really pretty consistent and accurate as compared to any other proposed methods.

Co~rrect. But the diagnosis you're seeking, will generally be the diagnosis that you get. I have not found that to be the case with experienced clinicians. With ADHD, very often the patient has researched it out and has a pretty good idea of what is going on so the clinician is then verifying the patient's suspicions.

For example, if you have difficulties with concentration, memory and motivation and you request to be evaluated for ADHD, then you'll get a diagnosis for ADHD, because the questionnaire is based on the symptoms you have, not the actual cause of the symptoms. Fraser, at this time we have no way of getting to the "actual cause of the symptoms". For all its faults, the current protocol is the best we have and works reasonably well.

If you have difficulties with concentration, memory and motivation and you request to be evaluated for Depression, then you'll end up with a diagnosis for depression, because again, the questionaire is based around the symptoms you have, instead of getting to the core cause of the symptoms.__________________ What you are missing, a good assessment also involves a family and personal history. This is where other issues are normally picked up. Also, a good psychological battery can help do the same thing.

It's not always a matter of a diagnosis you're seeking (i should have been clearer on that), but sometimes its down to the diagnosis your GP wants to give you, despite them being incorrect themselves. This is true and sometimes a GP does not always do a through assessment. It often appears that the UK has a particular problem with diagnosing ADHD.


The problem i'm trying to point out here is that too many of these so called "tests" aren't really tests at all. Because the questions contained in these tests could apply to a multitude of different disorders and the same questions could be found in evaluation questionnaires of multiple disorders. The surveys are to allow us to compare the level of symptoms of one individual with the general population. Generally we look for symptoms to be in the top 5-10% as compared to the general population. The further below that, the less likely it is that the person will be diagnosed as ADHD.

It's no wonder people with ADHD are often misdiagnosed with depression or vice versa. The questionnaires are more or less the same. The symptoms of depression and inattentive ADHD are similar. It is usually the history that differentiates them.


Hope this helps you understand a little better assessment for ADHD. I can see and understand why you think as you do but it is not quite the way it works.

Take care,

Dizfriz

Amtram
01-07-14, 12:42 PM
By identifying its cause or direct evidence thereof. For example, in viral diseases, finding a high level of the virus, or a high level of antibodies to that virus.

That's exactly right once you've gotten past the symptom checklist. Even with diseases that have an identifiable, testable cause, you need to know the symptoms to know what to test for. You can have two different bacteria that cause almost identical symptoms except for one extra, subtle one that occurs only in infection from the second bacteria. And you test for the first, and it shows the patient isn't sick!

Symptomology comes before testability. So right now with psychiatric disorders, we're still at the symptomology stage. That doesn't mean there won't ever be testability, but because ALL disease started off being evaluated by symptoms, it's incorrect to state that a disease doesn't exist because all we know are the symptoms.

Just trying to clarify - because the overwhelming public opinion is that symptoms alone don't indicate disease, but that's simply not true.

mischaelman
01-07-14, 01:04 PM
Testing eliminates causes for symptoms after they are identified.

It goes back to a thorough evaluation. Physical, blood work, neuro-psychological testing, inventories, questionnaires and most importantly patient and family history.

Michio
01-07-14, 01:05 PM
I love how he includes the comment that medications are used to try to improve performance at school

They aren't used to try to improve, they are used to try to repair. Improving implies that a baseline of acceptability is there already when it usually is not if medication is proscribed. Just speaking from personal experience, I had almost all Bs and Cs before my doctor proscribed me my medication, and they they all jumped to As and Bs.

Stevuke79
01-07-14, 01:13 PM
Fraser, very succinctly:
The problem i'm trying to point out here is that too many of these so called "tests" aren't really tests at all.

ADHD is tested every bit as scientifically as Autism, ALS, Dementia, Schizophrenia, Manic; they ask you about symptoms and take you at your word. For most, there is no bacteria or protein to isolate.

daveddd
01-07-14, 01:23 PM
i don't think there are any professionals that think that adhd IS a disease

even barkley says it isn't

Dizfriz
01-07-14, 01:29 PM
Fraser, very succinctly:


ADHD is tested every bit as scientifically as Autism, ALS, Dementia, Schizophrenia, Manic; they ask you about symptoms and take you at your word. For most, there is no bacteria or protein to isolate.

i don't think there are any professionals that think that adhd IS a disease

even barkley says it isn't
True. ADHD is not a disease just as a broken bone is not a disease.

Dizfriz

daveddd
01-07-14, 01:33 PM
True. ADHD is not a disease just as a broken bone is not a disease.

Dizfriz

as in no one specific way to arrive there?

Stevuke79
01-07-14, 01:42 PM
I'm not sure that "disease" vs "disorder" is a distinction that means anything. Let's think of them all as "Treatable Disorders"

But come to think of it, ... we really can't test scientifically for Alzheimer's,.. call me a cynic but I think those old guys are all just trying to get extra time on the SAT's. Fakers!

daveddd
01-07-14, 01:55 PM
I'm not sure that "disease" vs "disorder" is a distinction that means anything. Let's think of them all as "Treatable Disorders"

But come to think of it, ... we really can't test scientifically for Alzheimer's,.. call me a cynic but I think those old guys are all just trying to get extra time on the SAT's. Fakers!

i think it would mean that a disease is one specific illness

symptom grouping disorders can be caused by several different things

i think there is some reason for a distinction there

dvdnvwls
01-07-14, 01:58 PM
as in no one specific way to arrive there?
There is an agreement or custom that the word "disease" refers to a specific sub-set of "things that can go wrong".

- Being sick because of infection by microorganisms is always called disease, plus anything that can be seen as roughly analogous to infection (e.g. cancer) is also always called disease.

- It's very rare for externally-caused physical injury to be called disease.

- Things that fit neither of those categories are usually not called disease either, but it's probably less clear-cut.

Stevuke79
01-07-14, 02:02 PM
i think it would mean that a disease is one specific illness

symptom grouping disorders can be caused by several different things

i think there is some reason for a distinction there

Ok. I have no idea; it sounds like none of us do either. Is the distinction about disease relevant to your point.

Could we talk about "Treatable Conditions" and have just as productive a conversation about Alzheimers, ADHD and Broken legs? Or am I missing your point?

daveddd
01-07-14, 03:47 PM
i thought that was the thread idea, i don't know

adhd is just a set of human traits to an extreme

not a disease or illness

Abi
01-07-14, 04:03 PM
as in no one specific way to arrive there?

no, as in, "it may not technically be a disease, but it is a pathological and undesirable state"

daveddd
01-07-14, 04:04 PM
no, as in, "it may not technically be a disease, but it is a pathological and undesirable state"

i agree

a state, not arrived at in any specific way

Stevuke79
01-07-14, 04:09 PM
i thought that was the thread idea, i don't know

adhd is just a set of human traits to an extreme

not a disease or illness

That seems like a harmless enough semantical point to me. We can say that about many conditions and I have no problem with it. Lets do away with the terms disease or illness as it relates to ADHD. Tho particular words weren't doing anything for me anyway.

Now what? Was your problem purely semantical? Can we still diagnose and treat? Or am I still missing your point?

Michio
01-07-14, 04:22 PM
adhd is just a set of human traits to an extreme

How so? It isn't so much traits taken to the extreme, as an actual issue with how the brain neurologically functions. It's not an extreme of human trait, because a trait would imply that it is a sort of natural thing or something that could be controlled via willpower or making a change in your personality through practice. It's a simple chemical imbalance in the brain that is in need of correcting where ( if I understand what I've read about it) the brain simply doesn't properly transmit thought from neuron to neuron. Calling it a trait simplifies and degrades it.

daveddd
01-07-14, 05:23 PM
That seems like a harmless enough semantical point to me. We can say that about many conditions and I have no problem with it. Lets do away with the terms disease or illness as it relates to ADHD. Tho particular words weren't doing anything for me anyway.

Now what? Was your problem purely semantical? Can we still diagnose and treat? Or am I still missing your point?

no i was just confused on the argument of the thread

it said guy says adhd not real

then it was quoted , the guy didn't say it wasn't real he said it wasn't a specific disease

barkley has gone out his way to say , adhd is not a disease, not something you have or don't, its the extreme end of human traits"

so i was just confused on what the argument in the thread was, all professionals know adhd isn't a disease,

i was just confused, i have adhd, its a sickness;)

mischaelman
01-07-14, 05:35 PM
I love how he includes the comment that medications are used to try to improve performance at school

They aren't used to try to improve, they are used to try to repair. Improving implies that a baseline of acceptability is there already when it usually is not if medication is proscribed. Just speaking from personal experience, I had almost all Bs and Cs before my doctor proscribed me my medication, and they they all jumped to As and Bs.


Medications prescribed to help us compensate, also enhance performance in the rest of the population. Therein lies the problem. While there are people who are suffering and show a genuine need for diagnosis and medication, far too many have sought diagnosis to enhance their performance through medication.

My problem is with the doctors who aren't requiring thorough evaluations before prescribing medication to patients. Baseline of acceptability is often determined by neuro-pyschological testing, such as the WAIS-IV. Many post-secondary schools require this as part of documentation for many disabilities, including ADHD.

Anyone can fake or manipulate an inventory for their benefit. WAIS-IV, physical, blood work, etc. can't be faked or manipulated. How possible ADHD is negatively impacting someone's life can't be falsified.

The entire controversy surrounding ADHD is related to the medications that we are prescribed. By discrediting ADHD, it makes us appear as having an unfair advantage. If ADHD medications became over the counter drugs tomorrow, the controversy might disappear.

Should this happen, a story similar to the original BioShock would develop. In that game, a closed society literally destroys itself by taking "enhancement drugs." The original "enhancement drug" in BioShock was discovered because it healed a hand.

Amtram
01-07-14, 05:48 PM
Disease, technically, covers everything that isn't an injury. I'm trying to think of why we wouldn't want to call ADHD a disease when there are other conditions in the DSM that we do call diseases, and things that fit the models of acquisition, diagnosis, or treatment for disease that we also don't call diseases, and just can't figure it out.

daveddd
01-07-14, 05:49 PM
Disease, technically, covers everything that isn't an injury. I'm trying to think of why we wouldn't want to call ADHD a disease when there are other conditions in the DSM that we do call diseases, and things that fit the models of acquisition, diagnosis, or treatment for disease that we also don't call diseases, and just can't figure it out.

i guess barkley would know the answer only

Restless1
01-07-14, 05:50 PM
Late to thread so commenting on earlier posts here...
In UK GPs dont diagnose adhd so when someone said something about the uk situation. They listen to you and tell you they dont know anything about it. They look up the specialists in their area and refer you to them. Usually depression/anxiety focussed service. After they see you as a patient they reckon you dont have anxiety caused problems but reckon you need an assessment for adhd but sorry we dont do that and noone in your area does. See your gp. Eventually you see one of a relatively small number of specialists who can diagnose adhd. Perhaps a better way than letting some family physician do it who really knows a little bit of a lot not a lot of a little bit like specialists.

Iirc disease is a chemical or biological cause to health problem. I mean bacteria, virus or perhaps a change to your own cells that is negative like cancer. Condition is where it is not a disease, but something is not working in your body the way it should. Syndrome is more for something not fitting in another category such as psychological conditions which have no direct marker to enable diagnosis, which is dxed by ruling out other things or by a well taken history (questionnaires, surveys, family being questioned too, etc.). Or something like the above anyway. Doesnt matter of course but those categories do have meaning to those specialists but not so much to us general population/medical punters.

My GP told me ADHD is basically when someone tests beyond a certain level that is considered normal. Whatever normal is. Guess she meant a kind of probability or statistical diagnosis. She mentioned a range or spectrum we're on, adhd nearer one end with the majority of the population nearer the middle. Perhaps if you are at one end of the range in the right mix if factors/traits/issues you have adhd, in different mix you have depression, autism, anxiety, etc. Guess you can have more than one syndrome/condition/trait too.

Of course thats only if adhd exists, what's your view? Is that doc right or wrong? Wrong is my feeling.

Canadian Mess
01-07-14, 05:56 PM
Paediatric neurologist Dr Richard Saul believes that ADHD simply doesnt exist and is being used as a mask for less serious problems.

Well first, they spelt pediatric wrong? Used as a mask for less serious problems... so people are inventing their problems so they can hide problems? I don't get it. "I can't see the board" = I should tell the doctor I have ADHD? What??? WHY WOULD YOU MAKE THAT UP?

He claims that ADHD is nothing more than a collection of symptoms and not a disease

Definition of a disease: a disorder of structure or function in a human, that produces specific signs or symptoms or that affects a specific location and is not simply a direct result of physical injury. congratulations doctor, you don't know what a disease is... :lol:

But on a serious note, if that was all he was saying, (the collection of symptoms), many researchers have thought of this. ADHD could be an umbrella term, the problem is we don't know what causes what. that's why they are still researching it. :doh:

The diagnosis can be an easy-to-reach-for crutch. Moreover, theres an attractive element to an ADHD diagnosis, especially in adults - it can be exciting to think of oneself as involved in many things at once, rather than stuck in a boring rut.

Reality:
Many adults with ADHD have low self-esteem, especially if they did not receive help as a child. The problems and issues caused by their untreated disorder tend to chip away at their self-image as time passes. A therapist can help the adult examine events and internal dialogue that caused the poor self-esteem. From there, healing the wounds can begin.

Just look at Sarah Sweet's post on combined ADHD for how we feel about "being excited to think of oneself as involved in many things at once"

The rest of the article bashes ADHD pills, says the diagnosis is too broad, and then finishes off by saying not many people get diagnosed in the UK.. which is contradictory but it's the Daily Mail what do you expect?

That wasted too many brain cells to read that garbage

Restless1
01-07-14, 06:04 PM
One comment interested me most, that was the age range adhd develops. Basically primary school. That was when I got the feeling things were becoming harder, my ability to take things in. I thought of it as my brain was filling up. Once I'd remember everything i read, I understood everything and got good school results without trying at all. Later it got harder. Leading into GCSEs it was all without having to try but downhill from there. Reading about adhd it seems to make sense to me. Even that age range for when adhd develops matches my case with a lot of hindsight.

So tell me ADHD doesnt exist, OK, I'll buy that. Just tell me what it is that I'm struggling against, call it what you want but find something that will help me. I'm not that into names of the condition(s) just on how youll make my life better. If this guy is right then great! Get me help for whatever this guy thinks i really have. If treatment helps does owt else matter?

Canadian Mess
01-07-14, 06:06 PM
i thought that was the thread idea, i don't know

adhd is just a set of human traits to an extreme

not a disease or illness

I don't think we have arrived at this conclusion in research at all. There are certain genes that are suspected to predispose you to ADHD or maybe cause it (not proven), some parts of the brain that are not working as they should that are suspected too.

Where does "normal" start and "abnormal" begin? We think it could be on a spectrum, like for example 2 SD out is ADHD or something...

If you want to define "disease" that's great, but I'd argue that just because there is an absence of disease does not equal health. I'd rather we talk about "wellness"- this is your overall health regarded to spirituality, mental health, physical health...

ADHD does not make you well, it leads you to the path that is abnormal to the rest of the population and predisposes you to a lack of wellness. It could very well be considered a chronic disease caused by genes later in research, as it is categorized as a neurological condition... or it could be just mental health...

Regardless, it causes chronic suffering for those that have it. Disease or not.

Restless1
01-07-14, 06:09 PM
Hey! English speaker from England here. This article is in an English newspaper, we spell it paediatric here with the letter a. Therefore it is spelt right. Check out the Oxford English Dictionary as the arbiter of the English language in England.

One day you colonials will learn to spell things correctly!!!!😉😄

(Tongue firmly in cheek and no offence meant.)

daveddd
01-07-14, 06:09 PM
I don't think we have arrived at this conclusion in research at all. There are certain genes that are suspected to predispose you to ADHD or maybe cause it (not proven), some parts of the brain that are not working as they should that are suspected too.

Where does "normal" start and "abnormal" begin? We think it could be on a spectrum, like for example 2 SD out is ADHD or something...

If you want to define "disease" that's great, but I'd argue that just because there is an absence of disease does not equal health. I'd rather we talk about "wellness"- this is your overall health regarded to spirituality, mental health, physical health...

ADHD does not make you well, it leads you to the path that is abnormal to the rest of the population and predisposes you to a lack of wellness. It could very well be considered a chronic disease caused by genes later in research, as it is categorized as a neurological condition... or it could be just mental health...

Regardless, it causes chronic suffering for those that have it. Disease or not.

i wasn't talking about "we", i was talking about barkley, his model of adhd is the accepted one currently

i just figure if he is going out of his way to say that , very specifically , there was a reason

he is the one doing most of the research

eclectic beagle
01-07-14, 06:20 PM
i wasn't talking about "we", i was talking about barkley, his model of adhd is the accepted one currently

i just figure if he is going out of his way to say that , very specifically , there was a reason

he is the one doing most of the research

Is Barkley's model of executive functions the accepted one as well? In his book he states that other scientists conceptualize executive functions differently.

He also states that there are four different types of self-control, each one related to a different executive function.

daveddd
01-07-14, 06:21 PM
Is Barkley's model of executive functions the accepted one as well? In his book he states that other scientists conceptualize executive functions differently.

from what i gather, he is the most referenced by a mile

there are a lot of different views on EFs

a lot of similarities in them though

Dizfriz
01-07-14, 06:24 PM
How so? It isn't so much traits taken to the extreme, as an actual issue with how the brain neurologically functions. It's not an extreme of human trait, because a trait would imply that it is a sort of natural thing or something that could be controlled via willpower or making a change in your personality through practice. It's a simple chemical imbalance in the brain that is in need of correcting where ( if I understand what I've read about it) the brain simply doesn't properly transmit thought rom neuron to neuron. Calling it a trait simplifies and degrades it.

If you follow Barkley's theory on ADHD, it is a trait. AD/HD is not a pathology, its a trait. There is an AD/HD trait in the population. Its called self-control, and AD/HD represents the lower end of that trait. Just as dyslexia is not a category, but is simply the lower end of the distribution of phonologic awareness and decoding. And just as mental retardation is the lower end of the distribution of IQ in the population, AD/HD is just the lower end of a normal Bell Curve for self-control in the population. Its not like pregnancy, not something you have or you dont. Its a continuum. And they happen to occupy the extreme end of the continuum of a normal trait. Transcript of Barkley workshop http://www.greatschools.net/cgi-bin/showarticle/2054 page 30

If you don't follow Barkley's theory then it is a whole different ballgame.

Dizfriz

daveddd
01-07-14, 06:25 PM
even authors in the psychoanalytical view reference him as the most accurate definition of adhd (self regulation model)

eclectic beagle
01-07-14, 06:27 PM
from what i gather, he is the most referenced by a mile

there are a lot of different views on EFs

a lot of similarities in them though


True, there are similarities.

Currently very interested in his concept of nonverbal working memory, and how that facilitates vicarious learning (learning from other's mistakes).

daveddd
01-07-14, 06:28 PM
True, there are similarities.

Currently very interested in his concept of nonverbal working memory, and how that facilitates vicarious learning (learning from other's mistakes).

you have read this correct?

http://books.google.com/books?id=7c39F6qD38IC&printsec=frontcover&dq=executive+functions+and+how+they+work&hl=en&sa=X&ei=eX_MUtPgMsPr2AXRpYB4&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=executive%20functions%20and%20how%20they%20work&f=false

Dizfriz
01-07-14, 06:31 PM
Disease, technically, covers everything that isn't an injury. I'm trying to think of why we wouldn't want to call ADHD a disease when there are other conditions in the DSM that we do call diseases, and things that fit the models of acquisition, diagnosis, or treatment for disease that we also don't call diseases, and just can't figure it out.

It is mostly a matter of definition. I pretty much use the same one that Wiki posts. A disease is an abnormal condition that affects the body of an organism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disease

Since I don't think ADHD is abnormal as such and pretty much see it as a trait in range of the normal human population, the Wiki one fits well for me. Others may differ

It is not a bit deal and there are a number of definitions of disease so if you use different definitions, you will get different conclusions about the term.

Dizfriz

eclectic beagle
01-07-14, 06:40 PM
you have read this correct?

http://books.google.com/books?id=7c39F6qD38IC&printsec=frontcover&dq=executive+functions+and+how+they+work&hl=en&sa=X&ei=eX_MUtPgMsPr2AXRpYB4&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=executive%20functions%20and%20how%20they%20work&f=false

I only have the gist, but think it's interesting that it delves into how executive functions have evolved, but not sure if that has much implications for improving treatments.

daveddd
01-07-14, 06:44 PM
I only have the gist, but think it's interesting that it delves into how executive functions have evolved, but not sure if that has much implications for improving treatments.

getting to understand how and why EFs evolved what exactly they are(opposed to vague definitions ), is the only way to get further towards the right treatment

it even can raise awareness in yourself to your own strengths and weakness in the area of EFs

Michio
01-07-14, 07:19 PM
If you follow Barkley's theory on ADHD, it is a trait. Transcript of Barkley workshop http://www.greatschools.net/cgi-bin/showarticle/2054 page 30

If you don't follow Barkley's theory then it is a whole different ballgame.

Dizfriz
I see. I misunderstood what was meant by trait. Apologies.

Michio
01-07-14, 07:23 PM
Medications prescribed to help us compensate, also enhance performance in the rest of the population. Therein lies the problem. While there are people who are suffering and show a genuine need for diagnosis and medication, far too many have sought diagnosis to enhance their performance through medication.

My problem is with the doctors who aren't requiring thorough evaluations before prescribing medication to patients. Baseline of acceptability is often determined by neuro-pyschological testing, such as the WAIS-IV. Many post-secondary schools require this as part of documentation for many disabilities, including ADHD.

Anyone can fake or manipulate an inventory for their benefit. WAIS-IV, physical, blood work, etc. can't be faked or manipulated. How possible ADHD is negatively impacting someone's life can't be falsified.

The entire controversy surrounding ADHD is related to the medications that we are prescribed. By discrediting ADHD, it makes us appear as having an unfair advantage. If ADHD medications became over the counter drugs tomorrow, the controversy might disappear.

Should this happen, a story similar to the original BioShock would develop. In that game, a closed society literally destroys itself by taking "enhancement drugs." The original "enhancement drug" in BioShock was discovered because it healed a hand.

I'd agree, but some studies have shown that ADD medications don't help very much with a normal population.

http://healthland.time.com/2010/12/21/adderall-may-not-make-you-smarter-but-it-makes-you-think-you-are/

They just hurt those who don't need them, but heaven forbid that stop people who don't need it from taking it.

sarahsweets
01-07-14, 07:38 PM
I think the dsm criteria should be tightened to include many more symptoms of as*holitis. The author obviously has this disorder.

Blanched Dubois
01-07-14, 08:32 PM
Is this from the same neurologist who said he saw heaven?

No he's the 'same' neurologist who likes to work with big pharma's inside feuds ( games exploiting their power and greed at we the people's expense since time immemorial and until we stop consuming their products IMO ) who gets nice kickbacks for stirring the pot


http://www.psych.org/practice/ethics

mctavish23
01-07-14, 09:42 PM
wtf,

And exactly WHO is this genius ? Whoever he is, he isn't going to be licensed, nor will he

belong to any reputable professional association of neurologist's, or the American Medical

Association.

It always floors me when one dipsheet with an advanced degree tries to stand up and

dispute something that just happens to be THE single most empirically supported childhood

disorder / developmental disability on EARTH.

If this were a sporting event, the score would literally be 10K + studies on ADHD Is REAL,

versus NONE (0), which meet the Scientific Method as valid and reliable + Published in a

Reputable (Peer Reviewed) Journal, to the contrary. :yes:

He has a better shot at "The Sky Is Falling" and "Earth Is Flat." :doh:

u r welcome :cool:

Blanched Dubois
01-07-14, 09:55 PM
http://www.drscore.com/Illinois/Neurology/search/Richard-Saul_10672498.html

http://http://www.vitals.com/doctors/Dr_Richard_Saul/reviews

mctavish23
01-07-14, 10:12 PM
Blanche,

ty 4 the links, but the reality is I honestly don't care who this clown is, if that's what he

really thinks / believes.

tc

Robert

Corina86
01-08-14, 09:21 AM
Ah, the Daily Fail!

Back to the subject, this article would've been interesting if the author would've focused on misdiagnosis due to other conditions (physical and mental), overdiagnosis/underdiagnosis due to society's standards and accommodations for children/adults with this disorder who can't take medication due to side effects. But this article is a mess- it cites one guy who says it isn't real, but didn't even bother to make a study to prove it (2 kids who were misdiagnosed doesn't mean it's not a real issue), then turns the whole story around by saying some are deprived of very needed medication etc.

Personally, I found that getting this diagnosis, even as an adult, can be very hard: I had to try a couple months of anti-anxiety/anti-depressive pills to make sure anxiety isn't causing my symptoms, I had to do blood tests and I still have to get my bowel issues fixed, see a child psychiatrist, a neurologist, speak to a therapist, before I can return to my psychiatrist, who, based on all of the results of these tests, will decide if I get medication. And if it wasn't for all the money I have to spend, I wouldn't have a problem with it, since it's all way better than getting some treatment that doesn't help me.

What really bothers me is that the author and the "specialist" didn't bother to think about the reaction of Joe/Jane- (below) Average, who will think that all the kids with this diagnosis are bad, unruly and deserve punishment, usually physical abuse. If parents that have kids with issues take them to a child-psychiatrist, take them to therapy, that's already a gain, even if the kid has ADHD, anxiety, Asperger's or hasn't been educated properly- a good specialist can figure out what it is and help even an unruly, misbehaved child. And that's way better than beating up kids!

Amtram
01-08-14, 11:30 AM
And exactly WHO is this genius ? Whoever he is, he isn't going to be licensed, nor will he belong to any reputable professional association of neurologist's, or the American Medical Association.

It always floors me when one dipsheet with an advanced degree tries to stand up and dispute something that just happens to be THE single most empirically supported childhood disorder / developmental disability on EARTH.

_____

He has a better shot at "The Sky Is Falling" and "Earth Is Flat." :doh:



Heh. Michael Egnor, neurosurgeon, licensed, still working and still saying evolution is fake. Dr. Oz, still a licensed heart surgeon, pretty much everything that comes out of his mouth. Just the tip of a shamefully large iceberg of Argument from Authority that works on people and doesn't get the misguided authorities even a smack on the wrist. People believe what they want to believe.

BTW, Richard Saul is the author of a book called "ADHD Does Not Exist." It's on amazon already, although the publication date isn't until February. There are no customer reviews. . .(hint, hint!) but this would explain why his opinion is suddenly A Thing.

mctavish23
01-08-14, 06:11 PM
Doesn't care what the credentials are, because NONE of that changes the data to the

contrary. Hopefully he's trying to sell books, otherwise he just painted a bullseye on his

license, as ADHD is real, is THE single most empirically supported research I have ever come

across. Even if he's trying to be "cute", the potential damage he could cause from some type

of misunderstanding of the intentions, as well as the obvious misleading information, IMO, call

for a complaint.

tc

Robert

Michio
01-08-14, 06:16 PM
I love how, when some people try to say ADHD isn't real, they attribute it to things like not spending enough time outside, insufficient, exercise, television, radio, the microwave, solar flares, christmas trees. I just sit there like "It's documented as far back as 1798, bub. Quit wailing on it."

Guy's name was Alexander Chriton, if anybody's interested.

Tulip7171
01-08-14, 08:47 PM
I love how, when some people try to say ADHD isn't real, they attribute it to things like not spending enough time outside, insufficient, exercise, television, radio, the microwave, solar flares, christmas trees.I just sit there like "It's documented as far back as 1798, bub. Quit wailing on it."

Guy's name was Alexander Chriton, if anybody's interested.

I totally got ADHD from a Christmas tree! :yes:

My aunt had one of those aluminum ones in the 70's; BLUE! I'm sure the tackiness of it gave me ADHD! :umm1: :lol: :cool:

Rebelyell
01-08-14, 09:18 PM
I wish I could say it doesn't exist but this @$$holeitis must be contagious because I was trying to give sarah sweets another rep and the tptb at the forums here:Dwouldn't let me do that !

Rebelyell
01-08-14, 09:20 PM
I thought it was from eating all them lead chips off the house tulip:D I think I got mine from the damn birth vitamins they gave my mom to take.

Michio
01-08-14, 11:10 PM
For me it was probably all that time i spent licking lead paint off the walls of my parents apartment when I was little. :lol:

Tulip7171
01-09-14, 01:18 AM
I thought it was from eating all them lead chips off the house tulip:D I think I got mine from the damn birth vitamins they gave my mom to take.

I don't remember eating paint chips, I was more into eating play-doh when I was little. :rolleyes:

I did break open a mercury thermometer to see what was inside, though. My mom caught me pushing little balls of mercury around on the bathroom floor & freaked! :faint: Never had another mercury thermometer in the house after that.

I was about 6yrs. I think that was caused by the ADHD. I had to know how everything worked.

Amtram
01-09-14, 01:50 PM
Wow, do I feel old now.

We had lead paint, because that's what you bought, inside and out. We had leaded gas, and let me tell you, everyone breathed in a lot of it because cars got about 10mpg and had no filtration for the exhaust, either. You think the snow looks gross after a couple of days piled up on the side of the road now? You should have seen it when I was a kid. We drank water that came through an entire system of lead pipes.

But there are more diagnoses of ADHD now that lead levels have to be measured in blood by parts per trillion.

We actually played with mercury in our science class. Everyone got to play with the little liquid balls in their hands. We did experiments with it, too, during our lessons on weather, so we learned how it showed changes in temperature and barometric pressure. We did the same thing with other chemicals that are now shown to have various types of toxicity, and we didn't use masks or gloves or safety glasses. Heck, you could buy yourself a chemistry kit that included these things if you wanted!

But there are more diagnoses of ADHD now that we protect ourselves from exposure to all these chemicals and use safety gear even in elementary school.

Our homes and pipes were insulated with asbestos, and the brake linings on our cars and trucks was made with it, too. Houses in old neighborhoods were heated with coal, and factory smokestacks vented directly into the atmosphere. Sewage and industrial waste went into waterways and holes in the ground. (Anyone remember the Ohio River catching fire?) We burned our trash and our fall leaves.

Close to 75% of all Americans smoked. Now it's under 25%. Pregnant women smoked and drank throughout their pregnancies. Heck, doctors recommended that nursing moms drink to improve lactation. Not any more.

And yet there are still diagnoses of ADHD with these environmental contaminants mitigated or eliminated.

This is why I don't understand any of these contaminants still being implicated as causes. If something causes something else, then curtailing or eliminating that thing will result in less of the other thing. Like, A LOT less. Like, if it were caused by lead, then you would NEVER see it in the absence of lead poisoning. But that's not the case.

daveddd
01-09-14, 02:37 PM
Wow, do I feel old now.

We had lead paint, because that's what you bought, inside and out. We had leaded gas, and let me tell you, everyone breathed in a lot of it because cars got about 10mpg and had no filtration for the exhaust, either. You think the snow looks gross after a couple of days piled up on the side of the road now? You should have seen it when I was a kid. We drank water that came through an entire system of lead pipes.

But there are more diagnoses of ADHD now that lead levels have to be measured in blood by parts per trillion.

We actually played with mercury in our science class. Everyone got to play with the little liquid balls in their hands. We did experiments with it, too, during our lessons on weather, so we learned how it showed changes in temperature and barometric pressure. We did the same thing with other chemicals that are now shown to have various types of toxicity, and we didn't use masks or gloves or safety glasses. Heck, you could buy yourself a chemistry kit that included these things if you wanted!

But there are more diagnoses of ADHD now that we protect ourselves from exposure to all these chemicals and use safety gear even in elementary school.

Our homes and pipes were insulated with asbestos, and the brake linings on our cars and trucks was made with it, too. Houses in old neighborhoods were heated with coal, and factory smokestacks vented directly into the atmosphere. Sewage and industrial waste went into waterways and holes in the ground. (Anyone remember the Ohio River catching fire?) We burned our trash and our fall leaves.

Close to 75% of all Americans smoked. Now it's under 25%. Pregnant women smoked and drank throughout their pregnancies. Heck, doctors recommended that nursing moms drink to improve lactation. Not any more.

And yet there are still diagnoses of ADHD with these environmental contaminants mitigated or eliminated.

This is why I don't understand any of these contaminants still being implicated as causes. If something causes something else, then curtailing or eliminating that thing will result in less of the other thing. Like, A LOT less. Like, if it were caused by lead, then you would NEVER see it in the absence of lead poisoning. But that's not the case.

yes, but there has been an increase in sugar products

and thats how i caught my adhd, too much sugar

Amtram
01-09-14, 04:04 PM
I hope you're joking, because that's been studied extensively and the conclusions are 100% negative for causation.

We also had a lot more of that when I was a kid, too. Sugar and fat. Mmmmm, good! Oh, and salt. Lots and lots of salt.

Rebelyell
01-09-14, 05:30 PM
We need more LEADED in our diet dammit! :D jk

Rebelyell
01-09-14, 05:31 PM
Ohio river pssssht that's nothing a few times I over thought and my brain caught on fire WHOO Man!

Lunacie
01-12-14, 06:03 PM
https://scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/1480539_10151820689545303_1635107913_n.jpg

Blanched Dubois
01-12-14, 09:16 PM
I admire and respect pure science as much as I do ancient alchemy - stories about the greed denigrating the lives of those like Tesla and so many who i'm pretty sure just come back and **** everyone off again so the power mongers can keep the little people down well - i never bought into that nor think of it but to say - yeahno

i make my own way - i'm not popular and yet i have enough always

and i have some to spare

i defied the odds 3 times now having near death experiences - and i've learned more from what I won't discuss here or publically than from any science experiment or 'channel' or 'reading' from other 'oracles' - as we each have a contribution and a duty to our own s elves

and the judgements are made up - as are the rules etc yaddaya - i only ask permission to use the energies of the day to show my respect to the universal laws no one openly accknowledges affects the whole and it does - it's important - like many realizations
people ain't gonna know what they don't want to know and i am the perfect example as it took me almost a century to accept the evil my family gene has and the harm they enjoy employing on the loving clueless

waking up to family vampires is just not 'ok' to discuss and i assure you it's rampant and i know i'm not 'alone' and i trust my senses

i'm out

midnightstar
01-13-14, 04:58 AM
The daily mail was attacking dyslexia as well

Corina86
01-13-14, 12:18 PM
The daily mail was attacking dyslexia as well

Along with Romanians, Bulgarians, Muslims, Israelis, Germans, single-moms, working-moms, fat people, skinny people, benefit receivers, Miley Cyrus and most of the world's population. I understand that we all have freedom of speech, but we sure as hell aren't making good use of it.

I really love those theories that kids wouldn't be ADHD if they would play outside all day- maybe it's true, but unfortunately, both kids and adults are now forced to spend most of their lives in a classroom, doing homework or working in an office or a factory. Yes, it might society to blame, but does it really matter??? We either sit and focus, even if we need medication for it, or we're forever unemployed and we starve to death.

Amtram
01-13-14, 12:49 PM
I spent most of my youth outside. Still have ADHD.

In fact, it was worse back then when I was young and active. Go figure.

Lunacie
01-13-14, 12:50 PM
I spent most of my youth outside. Still have ADHD.

In fact, it was worse back then when I was young and active. Go figure.

Our symptoms probably would have been even worse if we hadn't been getting in some exercise/activity.
Scary, no?

sarahsweets
01-14-14, 06:23 AM
He is writing under a pen name. His real name is Senor Assolito.

MarkuZ
01-25-14, 03:25 PM
According to me Richard Saul doesn't exist. Does that mean he doesn't exist?

I can't believe how insensitive thoses "doctors" are. Evidence is all over the place and they keep saying those things, giving a harder life to people who already have a lot on their plates.

Geez, don't they have empathy?

serdis90
01-26-14, 10:12 AM
He might be right that some people are misdiagnosed... but ADHD is real. Ability discrepancies related to ADHD are real. I think as technology becomes better and neurology gets more advanced technological tools, and genetics become more and more uncovered. We'll find definitive diagnosis for adhd.

mildadhd
01-26-14, 11:25 PM
I'm curious, what is the difference between treating symptoms of AD(H)D and treating AD(H)D?



Peripherals

Amtram
01-27-14, 09:36 AM
We don't know what causes it with absolute certainty, so we can't treat it. Treating a disease or condition means treating the cause and either curing it or halting the progress. If you don't know the cause (or the cause isn't treatable, which is very often the case with ongoing conditions) then you treat the symptoms.

We can't treat amputated limbs even though we know the cause, but we can treat the symptoms of pain, phantom limb, and compensation for the missing limb.

We can't treat missing insulin-producing cells in the pancreas, but we can treat the symptoms of diabetes and medically compensate for the lack of insulin.

The problem with Saul is that he's saying that the condition is fake because we don't know the cause. That's out-and-out fakery, because we have a huge number of conditions, including those that don't even involve the brain, that have clearly obvious symptoms, but whose causes have not yet been discovered. In many cases, the symptoms are painful or debilitating.

Using the same logic Saul proposes, we should withhold pain medication from patients in physical agony because we don't know exactly why they're hurting. A patient who comes into a hospital with the beginnings of organ failure or a suppurating rash should be sent home until the bacterium or virus or even parasite is isolated and treatment specific to that pathogen is developed. This is not how medicine operates, thank goodness.

mildadhd
01-27-14, 04:39 PM
I thought AD(H)D diagnosis was made, only after attempts to treat individual symptoms where made.

Especially since there is multiple causation factors.

Not all people who suffer with AD(H)D symptoms have the same causation factors.


I'm curious to know how much the symptoms, could be part of the cause, interrupting development.

Predisposition may, or may not exist, depending on individual circumstances.

Although I think Saul makes some important points, it saddens me that he must deny the existence of AD(H)D impairments, to focus on treating the symptoms first or treat those who have been misdiagnosed.

I think there is enough neurological evidence to show impairment physically exists. (in more mature individuals with ADD)

Emotional pain can definitely be a result of having ADD impairments.

I am curious to know, if emotional pain can "cause" some ADD impairments.






Peripherals

Amtram
01-27-14, 06:50 PM
We treat symptoms all the time without knowing all the necessary details of causation.

Anyone here suffer migraines? One could easily take Saul's pronouncements about ADHD and substitute the word "migraine" and thereby pronounce that migraines do not exist, and since painkillers address only the symptoms, we should stop handing them out like candy.

And if I'm reading Peripheral's post correctly, you would go to the doctor with a migraine, and the doctor would spend a lot of time trying to determine whether your migraine was caused by stress or some other factor, and withhold pain medication until all the possible causes had been addressed and work on those rather than take care of the immediate problem, which is searing, blinding pain that makes it impossible for you to function in a world where the majority of people don't experience migraines.

Saul's pronouncements eliminate the possibility not only that ADHD exists, but also that its symptoms are real and not based in other much more easily diagnosable conditions. He honestly believes that every symptom can be eliminated with glasses or better sleep habits or more exercise, and if they can't, then they're being faked and we shouldn't give in and treat these clearly imaginary symptoms, being made up by drama queens seeking attention, with medications.

Lunacie
01-27-14, 06:59 PM
I am curious to know, if emotional pain can "cause" some ADD impairments.

I don't believe it works that way, although emotional pain can certainly make the disorder more difficult to handle.

daveddd
01-27-14, 07:02 PM
I don't believe it works that way, although emotional pain can certainly make the disorder more difficult to handle.

i guess it depends what you call emotional pain

barkley states clearly that emotional dysregulation and emotional impulsiveness are core features of the disorder

causing their own very severe set of impairments

Amtram
01-27-14, 08:15 PM
Barkley is saying that the condition causes the emotional issues, not that the emotional issues cause the condition. It's been studied quite a bit, and it's not only Barkley who's saying it. The emotional issues also exist before language development and even in children in friendly, supportive environments. (Which could well be considered appropriate treatment of the emotional issues, and a further example of how treating the emotional issues does not treat, much less cure, ADHD.)

mildadhd
01-27-14, 10:48 PM
We treat symptoms all the time without knowing all the necessary details of causation.

Anyone here suffer migraines? One could easily take Saul's pronouncements about ADHD and substitute the word "migraine" and thereby pronounce that migraines do not exist, and since painkillers address only the symptoms, we should stop handing them out like candy.

And if I'm reading Peripheral's post correctly, you would go to the doctor with a migraine, and the doctor would spend a lot of time trying to determine whether your migraine was caused by stress or some other factor, and withhold pain medication until all the possible causes had been addressed and work on those rather than take care of the immediate problem, which is searing, blinding pain that makes it impossible for you to function in a world where the majority of people don't experience migraines.

Saul's pronouncements eliminate the possibility not only that ADHD exists, but also that its symptoms are real and not based in other much more easily diagnosable conditions. He honestly believes that every symptom can be eliminated with glasses or better sleep habits or more exercise, and if they can't, then they're being faked and we shouldn't give in and treat these clearly imaginary symptoms, being made up by drama queens seeking attention, with medications.

Amtram,

We are discussing ADHD.

I had to wait a year before getting an appointement with a ADHD specialist.

I think that is part of the diagnosis process where I am from.

I had to get old report cards, parents and other people I am close to fill out forms, check for prior head injuries and other medical issues, etc.

I agree with that long process, these medications are very powerful, and there is a lot to explore before making the decision to medicate.



Are you saying that symptoms should not be explored/treated before diagnosing a person ADHD?



ADHD is very serious, but it is not a death sentence.

Are you saying people who think they have ADHD symptoms should be treated with medication on the first appointment, without ruling out other medical issues that mimic ADHD?

If so, I think your providing "ammunition" for Saul's point.


(For the record I take medication with success for my ADD impairments.)

This medication works for me, but I don't think medication use should ever be the first line of treatment.




Peripherals

Rebelyell
01-27-14, 10:53 PM
This guy sounds like a real butt plug

Stevuke79
01-27-14, 10:54 PM
This guy sounds like a real butt plug

:goodpost: I seriously think we should close this thread and let that be the final word on the matter.

daveddd
01-28-14, 07:49 AM
Barkley is saying that the condition causes the emotional issues, not that the emotional issues cause the condition. It's been studied quite a bit, and it's not only Barkley who's saying it. The emotional issues also exist before language development and even in children in friendly, supportive environments. (Which could well be considered appropriate treatment of the emotional issues, and a further example of how treating the emotional issues does not treat, much less cure, ADHD.)

this doesn't make sense




do you have a reference saying that the emotional issues are caused by the adhd and not a part of it

I've never seen that anywhere

daveddd
01-28-14, 10:35 AM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=emotional+impulsiveness+barkley

Amtram
01-28-14, 10:38 AM
Yes. Read one of Barkley's books, watch Joel Nigg's videos, check out any of the UCDavis Human Condition or MIND institute videos. Go onto PubMed and search the published research. It's not even a tiny bit difficult to find. The research on this has been going on for more than 70 years, even though the name has changed a couple of times.

daveddd
01-28-14, 10:40 AM
i think you are giving it your own interpretation


which is your right

but ill stick with the professionals
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=emotional+impulsiveness+barkley

daveddd
01-28-14, 10:50 AM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=joel+nigg+drd4+family+conflict


and here joel nigg says the opposite of what you say he says


i don't take any of this stuff as fact yet

but to state things as facts when they aren't, can only impede progress in the research and treatment of adhd

not help it

mildadhd
01-28-14, 12:29 PM
Basic emotion systems come from the brain stem area and are more mature at birth than higher control systems.

These higher control systems mature when lower basic emotions interact with experience.

At birth affective (feelings) consciousness is dominant.

As we mature cognitive consciousness matures, and a more balanced relationship develops between lower basic emotion systems and higher cognitive systems.


We also experience secondary emotion that occur after basic emotion interacts with personal experience and higher brain systems


So there are basic emotions we are all born with, that higher brain systems are developed upon, and more complex secondary emotions felt after cognition matures.

Without basic (primary) emotion systems, cognition and secondary emotions would not exist.


Most research I have read focuses on the secondary emotions felt after interacting with higher cognition, which I agree with.

While true, my question is what role do basic emotions we are all born with, have in the development (or underdevelopment) of higher cognitive systems.?

(particularly the right orbito frontal cortex which development seems most interfered with, if we are focusing specifically on ADHD)

My question in this thread is not about secondary emotion, as a result of having underdeveloped higher cognitive system.

The question involving secondary emotions is also a good question, that has been explored more, but not the question I am specifically asking.


Laymans

Amtram
01-28-14, 01:16 PM
i think you are giving it your own interpretation


which is your right

but ill stick with the professionals
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=emotional+impulsiveness+barkley

From the abstract: Emotional impulsiveness (EI) may be a central feature of attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) contributing impairment beyond the two ADHD dimensions of inattention and hyperactivity-impulsivity.

Meaning that these are caused by the ADHD, and can make it worse. But the emotional issues are "central features" of the disorder.

Amtram
01-28-14, 01:21 PM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=joel+nigg+drd4+family+conflict


and here joel nigg says the opposite of what you say he says


i don't take any of this stuff as fact yet

but to state things as facts when they aren't, can only impede progress in the research and treatment of adhd

not help it

I don't see that anywhere. Here's the abstract:

Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) is a prime candidate for exploration of gene-by-environment interaction (i.e., G x E), particularly in relation to dopamine system genes, due to strong evidence that dopamine systems are dysregulated in the disorder. Using a G x E design, we examined whether the DRD4 promoter 120-bp tandem repeat polymorphism, previously associated with ADHD, moderated the effects of inconsistent parenting and marital conflict on ADHD or Oppositional-Defiant Disorder (ODD). Participants were 548 children with ADHD and non-ADHD comparison children and their parents. Homozygosity for the DRD4 promoter 120-bp tandem repeat insertion allele increased vulnerability for ADHD and ODD only in the presence of inconsistent parenting and appeared to increase susceptibility to the influence of increased child self-blame for marital conflict on ADHD inattention. DRD4 genotypes may interact with these proximal family environmental risk factors by increasing the individual's responsivity to environmental contingencies.


Nigg's focus is on the genetic inheritance model of ADHD, and here he's explaining that the genes that cause the vulnerability are responsible for the emotional sensitivity. He is, to clarify, stating that the emotional vulnerability is inherent to the condition and comes first, but that (as in the previous citation) it can be a self-reinforcing factor in which the inborn trait of emotional vulnerability leads to extreme reactions to emotional stress, which further increases the emotional vulnerability.

mildadhd
01-28-14, 01:22 PM
What about the basic emotions we are born with, which cognitive maturity is built upon?


Peripherals

Lunacie
01-28-14, 01:45 PM
I think this issue of emotional difficulties has veered off from the posted topic.

Perhaps it could be addressed in a thread specifically on the topic of emotional dysregulation?

daveddd
01-28-14, 02:13 PM
From the abstract: Emotional impulsiveness (EI) may be a central feature of attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) contributing impairment beyond the two ADHD dimensions of inattention and hyperactivity-impulsivity.

Meaning that these are caused by the ADHD, and can make it worse. But the emotional issues are "central features" of the disorder.

emotional issues can be the central feature, causing the impairments

like peripheral said

mildadhd
01-28-14, 02:15 PM
I think this issue of emotional difficulties has veered off from the posted topic.

Perhaps it could be addressed in a thread specifically on the topic of emotional dysregulation?

Or a thread about basic primary emotions that all humans are born with.

Basic emotions that higher cognitive consciousness maturity is built upon.

That not many people want to talk about. But really exist.

Example: The SEEKING System is a basic emotion system, we are born with (traditionally know as the brain reward system)

Dopamine and the basic emotions connection, early brain development, etc.




Peripherals

daveddd
01-28-14, 02:18 PM
Barkley is saying that the condition causes the emotional issues, not that the emotional issues cause the condition. It's been studied quite a bit, and it's not only Barkley who's saying it. The emotional issues also exist before language development and even in children in friendly, supportive environments. (Which could well be considered appropriate treatment of the emotional issues, and a further example of how treating the emotional issues does not treat, much less cure, ADHD.)


he said the adhd is only around with inconsistent parenting

the opposite of what you said here

in other words , no facts are determinations have been reached by anyone

and like i stated, in the post you somehow attempted to argue with this post

emotional issues are their very own part of adhd , with their own impairments

mildadhd
01-28-14, 02:46 PM
emotional issues can be the central feature, causing the impairments

like peripheral said

Basic emotions we are born with are a "central feature" in all early development, in all people


Impairments may be partly caused by inherited emotionally hypersenstive temperament, and/or personal experience that basic emotions interact with to form higher control.

Specifics depend on the individual circumstances.

I appreciate the support, we have been working on these topics together for a while now, along with other members.

I appreciate the things I learn from your perspective, and your understanding.

I think you used the word pre executive, in a past thread?

I still have lots to learn, and am looking forward to discussing learning more about the topics more in the future.

There is a few other words I can't remember at the moment, that you introduced me to that I would like to discuse in more detail in the future.

Understanding basic emotions can help understand ADD and many other mental health issues better, along with what is already know.

(Laymans)

Peripherals

daveddd
01-28-14, 02:50 PM
Basic emotions we are born with are a "central feature" in all early development, in all people


Impairments may be partly caused by inherited emotionally hypersenstive temperament, and/or personal experience that basic emotions interact with to form higher control.

Specifics depend on the individual circumstances.

I appreciate the support, we have been working on these topics together for a while now, along with a few other members.

I appreciate the things I learn from your perspective, and your understanding.

I think you used the word pre executive, in a past thread?

I still have lots to learn, and am looking forward to discussing learning more about the topics more in the future.

There is a few other words that you introduced me to that I would like to discuse in more detail in the future.


Peripherals

barkley has the most concise group of pre executive functions

attention, feeling (physical) and other senses

ill double check that, but i think so

daveddd
01-28-14, 02:54 PM
and alertness and memory

mildadhd
01-28-14, 03:12 PM
Thanks daveddd,

If I understand correctly the basis of topics you just posted are primal, orginate in the lower brain. past on genetically?

attention, feeling (physical) and other senses, alertness

are maybe ascestoral memory, not sure about memory?

I am getting ahead of myself, I better read some things.

Renumeration? is another word I would like to learn more about, I could be wrong but renumeration, not even sure if I have the right word, but I think memory and renuneration? (Dwelling) are not primal but in part due to expereince.

I could be making mistakes but threw out the words for later new discussion.

I think you are on the right track with the pre-executive words.

Seems to make sense in regards to the affective material I am reading.

I mean I remember them being part.

Need to reread some stuff, for accuracy.



Peripherals

daveddd
01-28-14, 03:13 PM
yes i think those are the primal things

rumination?

mildadhd
01-28-14, 03:25 PM
yes i think those are the primal things

rumination?

Yes LOL

rumination, that is the word.

a secondary process

thanks, I got to run, but I am really looking forward to discussing the topics more in the near future.




Thanks Daveddd,


Peripherals

daveddd
01-28-14, 04:20 PM
you know this stuff well

namazu
01-29-14, 11:50 AM
Edward Hallowell has written about Dr. Saul's book here. (http://www.additudemag.com/adhdblogs/19/print/10626.html)
From his description -- and I'm not 100% sure whether or not he's seen an advance copy of the book [?] -- it sounds like the text may be more nuanced than the title suggests.

(I hope so!)

Still, the title itself provides a quick soundbyte, and will likely predispose the media to play up that angle, and whatever nuance may exist will likely be buried.


Full disclosure: I met this Dr. Saul many moons ago (well before he was writing sensational titles), and he actually diagnosed a family member of mine with ADHD (or whatever it was called at the time). Go figure!

mildadhd
01-29-14, 02:02 PM
you know this stuff well

Better with yours and everyones help.


THE FOLLOWING USER SAYS THANKS TO EVERYONE FOR THEIR INSIGHT.

Peripherals




!i!

ginniebean
01-29-14, 02:55 PM
Edward Hallowell has written about Dr. Saul's book here. (http://www.additudemag.com/adhdblogs/19/print/10626.html)
From his description -- and I'm not 100% sure whether or not he's seen an advance copy of the book [?] -- it sounds like the text may be more nuanced than the title suggests.

(I hope so!)

Still, the title itself provides a quick soundbyte, and will likely predispose the media to play up that angle, and whatever nuance may exist will likely be buried.


Full disclosure: I met this Dr. Saul many moons ago (well before he was writing sensational titles), and he actually diagnosed a family member of mine with ADHD (or whatever it was called at the time). Go figure!

I don't care for Hallowell on the best of days but how namby Pam by can you get? That response is filled with all sorts of segues and distractions. Did he actually have a point to make? It got lost in all the *** kissing.

mildadhd
01-29-14, 03:08 PM
Edward Hallowell has written about Dr. Saul's book here. (http://www.additudemag.com/adhdblogs/19/print/10626.html)
From his description -- and I'm not 100% sure whether or not he's seen an advance copy of the book [?] -- it sounds like the text may be more nuanced than the title suggests.

(I hope so!)

Still, the title itself provides a quick soundbyte, and will likely predispose the media to play up that angle, and whatever nuance may exist will likely be buried.


Full disclosure: I met this Dr. Saul many moons ago (well before he was writing sensational titles), and he actually diagnosed a family member of mine with ADHD (or whatever it was called at the time). Go figure!


Thanks Namazu,

Does the person diagnosed by Dr.Saul, still have symptoms of ADHD?

The title definitely promotes verbal medicine language debate.

"what are symptoms and what are signs"...seems to be part of the question.

While people suffering with ADHD, get lost in the debates.

I am curious to know how Dr.Saul subjectively addresses critical period, rapid rate, sensitive period of early development...

verses,

later adult periods of development, etc.


Or the neuroscience research link below, physically recognizing ADHD impairment/underdevelopment.



The prefrontal lobe impairment exists, and we need to have a way to recognize this impairment, for many purposes, as a group.

I guess that is why the words Attention Deficit (Hyperactivity) Disorder are are extremely important to recognize exists?


we now know that ADHD children are anatomically (and hence functionally) a bit deficient (~5%) in their frontal-lobe executive functions (Castellanos & Tannock, 2002 (http://www.med.nyu.edu/research/pdf/castef01-Castellanos%20Tannock%20NRN%202002.pdf)). Quoted from The Archaeology of Mind, p 382

namazu
01-30-14, 04:08 AM
Thanks Namazu,
Does the person diagnosed by Dr.Saul, still have symptoms of ADHD?
Absolutely, with associated life impairments -- the whole shebang.

I want to go up to Dr. Saul and shake him and ask him if he remembers my family member E...and to what he would attribute her very clear ADHD symptoms, if not a developmental disability affecting impulse control and executive function...


I am curious to know how Dr.Saul subjectively addresses critical period, rapid rate, sensitive period of early development...

verses,

later adult periods of development, etc.
Not sure -- I guess we'll have to wait for the book to come out, or some more informative reviews. From the press the book's gotten, I surmise that he'd say that at least some cases of pseudo-ADHD could be attributable to life circumstances or other disorders that arose later in life.

I'm less sure how he'd address early-life development, especially in cases where ADHD symptoms manifest themselves clearly very early on.

I do think he attributes some symptoms in some cases to disrupted or dysfunctional family situations or inappropriate educational placements, but I don't know how he explains most cases.

That response is filled with all sorts of segues and distractions. Did he actually have a point to make?
I'm thinking (as related to Dr. Saul's book) it was this:
My problem with the book is its title. It’s what publishers call a “selling title,” designed to get people to buy books. It is ironic, though, that a book that purports to tell the “the truth” (always a suspect promise) has, as its title, a blatant falsehood.
[...]
Dr. Saul does make a valid and important point in his book, a point that the title unfortunately buries: Different causes may lead to many of the symptoms summarized in the diagnostic shorthand term, ADHD
[...]
We must, as Alan Schwarz reminds us, do all we can to take care when we make this diagnosis and offer treatment. But we must not do what Alan Sroufe did and inflame the debate through reductive rhetoric, or do what Dr. Saul’s title suggests and walk away from the condition as if it were not there.

Lunacie
01-30-14, 11:23 AM
>>
Not sure -- I guess we'll have to wait for the book to come out, or some more informative reviews. From the press the book's gotten, I surmise that he'd say that at least some cases of pseudo-ADHD could be attributable to life circumstances or other disorders that arose later in life.

I'm less sure how he'd address early-life development, especially in cases where ADHD symptoms manifest themselves clearly very early on.

I do think he attributes some symptoms in some cases to disrupted or dysfunctional family situations or inappropriate educational placements, but I don't know how he explains most cases.

>
:

I've long wondered about the results if a study were done placing young children with ADHD
into neurotypical homes. Would the NT parents do as well with these more difficult children?

And what if the NT children were placed in the homes the ADHD children had come from?
Would the parents there becomes less dysfunctional, able to be better parents?
.

Amtram
01-30-14, 01:29 PM
Actually, that's been studied. Quite a lot. But not with the switching - with twin studies, adoption studies, and in families in which not all members meet the criteria. The consensus of these studies is that if you have ADHD, it doesn't matter where you grow up or go to school or whatever. All they show is that children who are given better tools and more acceptance are able to cope with or compensate for their symptoms better. They still have ADHD, they just don't have ADHD that ruins their lives.

daveddd
01-30-14, 01:33 PM
Actually, that's been studied. Quite a lot. But not with the switching - with twin studies, adoption studies, and in families in which not all members meet the criteria. The consensus of these studies is that if you have ADHD, it doesn't matter where you grow up or go to school or whatever. All they show is that children who are given better tools and more acceptance are able to cope with or compensate for their symptoms better. They still have ADHD, they just don't have ADHD that ruins their lives.

id like to find the key difference between adhd and adhd that ruins lives

after birth don't women make some brain chemical to bond with the new babies?

i wonder if the chemical stuff makes the adhd worse

Lunacie
01-30-14, 03:15 PM
Actually, that's been studied. Quite a lot. But not with the switching - with twin studies, adoption studies, and in families in which not all members meet the criteria. The consensus of these studies is that if you have ADHD, it doesn't matter where you grow up or go to school or whatever. All they show is that children who are given better tools and more acceptance are able to cope with or compensate for their symptoms better. They still have ADHD, they just don't have ADHD that ruins their lives.

That's not exactly what I was getting at though. I'm curious about the other side.

I absolutely know it's easier to parent NT kids than kids with ADHD or Autism or Bipolar.

I just wondered if there were any studies or research on that side of it.

This whole idea that poor parenting may actually cause ADHD seems to be very backwards to me.

Difficult kids make it harder to be a good parent.

daveddd
01-30-14, 03:21 PM
That's not exactly what I was getting at though. I'm curious about the other side.

I absolutely know it's easier to parent NT kids than kids with ADHD or Autism or Bipolar.

I just wondered if there were any studies or research on that side of it.

This whole idea that poor parenting may actually cause ADHD seems to be very backwards to me.

Difficult kids make it harder to be a good parent.

according to my doctor its pretty much bidirectional , difficult kid makes it difficult to teach self regulation

ginniebean
01-30-14, 03:40 PM
Namazu, yeah I got that but what I see is he exonerated the author and it'a just those bad publishers who want to sell books. I smell cop out. It smells fairly strong under this big bus.

Amtram
01-30-14, 05:01 PM
There's also been studies on directionality. There's no question that it's incredibly difficult to provide the perfect, nurturing environment for a child who's difficult. Especially if you don't have the professional resources available (physically or financially) to teach you how to cope.

Dave, ADHD is considered a "spectrum disorder," which means you can have almost no problems, or you can be pretty much disabled from it. However, this includes not only the severity of the ADHD-associated symptoms, but also the number of symptoms experienced, and the comorbid conditions that complicate it. You see it right here on the forums, where some people are chugging along, married, employed, more frustrated than anything, and other people who just can't do anything without help.

daveddd
01-30-14, 05:06 PM
yea i definitely feel like the lower end of the spectrum

but i still wonder if there is a key aspect that devastate a life as opposed to the other end , just needing stims during finals

i know emotional regulation definitely leads to people being worse off psychologically

daveddd
01-30-14, 05:37 PM
There's also been studies on directionality. There's no question that it's incredibly difficult to provide the perfect, nurturing environment for a child who's difficult. Especially if you don't have the professional resources available (physically or financially) to teach you how to cope.

Dave, ADHD is considered a "spectrum disorder," which means you can have almost no problems, or you can be pretty much disabled from it. However, this includes not only the severity of the ADHD-associated symptoms, but also the number of symptoms experienced, and the comorbid conditions that complicate it. You see it right here on the forums, where some people are chugging along, married, employed, more frustrated than anything, and other people who just can't do anything without help.

are there any mental illnesses that aren't a spectrum disorder?

ones you just have or you don't?

Lunacie
01-30-14, 06:04 PM
are there any mental illnesses that aren't a spectrum disorder?

ones you just have or you don't?

Interesting question. How about physical illnesses?

Either you have the flu or you don't, but some people do get much sicker with it than others.

Or look at migraine disorder. Not everyone has nausea or diarrhea.

The preceeding aura can be visual or olfactory or something else.

The pain can be one-sided or all over, or even in the gut.

Yet they all fall under the classification of migraine disorder.

So I wouldn't be at all surprised if all mental illness also follows a spectrum.
.

ginniebean
01-31-14, 03:06 AM
Why is it called a 'spectrum disorder" isn't that just a fancy way of saying different levels of severity?

Just like.. I got the flu, only I got a really bad case of the flu

different levels of severity can be found in all illness can't it?

janiew
01-31-14, 03:25 AM
This guy is trying to sell a book... That's all.

Read it with a grain of salt...

Amtram
01-31-14, 09:59 AM
Also. . .a self-published book.

From a company whose marketing strategy is to attract people whose "innovative thinking" prevents them from being published by companies that produce vetted literature.

InvitroCanibal
02-25-14, 09:02 PM
That's because ADHD isn't in the brain, it's in the liver and stomach possibly. Your specific enzymes are what catylze conversions between various precursors, a variance in these are proven to exist among all peope. Ironically rapid stimulant metabolizers like myself seem to have a higher predisposition for it. It has to do with how long the catecholamines receptors in your brain can be affected based on the availability of precursors. A fast metabolism or insufficient metabolism of things like trace amines, pea, tyrosine, tryptophan, can cause this. Many enzymes for digestion are produced in the stomach but if your lower intestines are inflamed due to imflammation at a cellular level than absorption becomes difficult as well.

Personally I have been looking into it and notice one key element on all the meds that treat adhd and bipolar and depression. Almost all of them either directly or indirectly reduce inflammation in the body.

Many do this by reducing cortisol in the brain which has a calming effect. Mood stabilizers do this significantly. This is why I believe ssri's/anti depressants and moodstabilizers take 3 months to work because your endocrine system is a slow change system.


So in short, it takes an endocrinologist to analyze this not a neurologist. He can only see brain imaging, if it's not on his image, it does exist, to him anyways.

On a less related note, doctors need more cross training :)

Blackstar
02-27-14, 03:02 AM
It's a very weak argument saying ADD doesn't exist on the basis of it covering up simpler causes.

What if all the simpler causes have been explored and turn up nothing ?

He really should know better. Neurologists can see increased theta and delta waves in EEGs with those with ADD / ADHD than normal, which are corrected by stimulants.

Fortune
02-27-14, 06:20 AM
That's because ADHD isn't in the brain, it's in the liver and stomach possibly.

Research has found a statistical tendency toward neurological differences in people diagnosed with ADHD.

An assertion like this could use some citation.

BananaCookie
02-27-14, 06:38 AM
That's because ADHD isn't in the brain, it's in the liver and stomach possibly. Your specific enzymes are what catylze conversions between various precursors, a variance in these are proven to exist among all peope. Ironically rapid stimulant metabolizers like myself seem to have a higher predisposition for it. It has to do with how long the catecholamines receptors in your brain can be affected based on the availability of precursors. A fast metabolism or insufficient metabolism of things like trace amines, pea, tyrosine, tryptophan, can cause this. Many enzymes for digestion are produced in the stomach but if your lower intestines are inflamed due to imflammation at a cellular level than absorption becomes difficult as well.

Personally I have been looking into it and notice one key element on all the meds that treat adhd and bipolar and depression. Almost all of them either directly or indirectly reduce inflammation in the body.

Many do this by reducing cortisol in the brain which has a calming effect. Mood stabilizers do this significantly. This is why I believe ssri's/anti depressants and moodstabilizers take 3 months to work because your endocrine system is a slow change system.


So in short, it takes an endocrinologist to analyze this not a neurologist. He can only see brain imaging, if it's not on his image, it does exist, to him anyways.

On a less related note, doctors need more cross training :)

I've never come across this theory. Do you have any sources where I can read it more in depth?

sarek
02-27-14, 08:39 AM
I've never come across this theory. Do you have any sources where I can read it more in depth?

I second that motion. Where did you get that, Invitro? Its becoming more and more obvious that the intestinal tract has a tremendous influence on general health and well being, but this idea is totally new to me.

InvitroCanibal
02-27-14, 02:52 PM
Research has found a statistical tendency toward neurological differences in people diagnosed with ADHD.

An assertion like this could use some citation.


The imaging was debunked. If the imaging did work and were the case we'd all be getting brain scans to prove our ADHD, and Dr.Amen would be the one leading the way as mental disorders enter a new era of proof and differential expertise.

I can provide research in my next post because as soon as I minimize this screen, it will close out on me.

A lot of this is somewhat a common sense factor, a 3 month effectiveness time for mood stabilizers or anti depressants indicates 2 things. Either BDNF or Endocrine relations. Now, you may ask how mood stabilizers or antidepressants relate to ADHD. Many mood stabilizers are being prescribed as an alternative to stimulants as well as anti depressants. If snri's were only useful for ADHD because of the neuroepinephrine component, than why doesn't strattera work effectively for more ADHD types?

The second aspect is that ADHD people do infact get the calming effect more often than non adhd people. I found only one study that said otherwise which was done in the 1970's, on children. They hardly had as much of an understanding on the disorder then. They also tended to misdiagnose it on dyslexic and autistic children. If you can find another study, by all means post or send it to me. My opinion is only as good as the information I find.

To say ADHD doesn't exist has a financial motivator by the way.

A lot of this has to do with the insurance companies that provide health care lobbying for ADHD to disappear. They fear the medications aspect because a lot of their profits are being lost to ADHD patients who must take medications for the rest of their life. It's mainly about the insurance companies losing money. Theirs a silent war going on between the pharmaceutical companies and insurance companies.

The predicted ratio of ADHD people was surmised to be around 20 percent of the population in 1999. This was stated in a frontline interview with Dr.Dodson. Now as time has gone on this is where the rates are heading and everyones having a freak out.

Canadian Mess
02-27-14, 03:04 PM
No, imaging is not debunked. ADHD is an umbrella term possibly for a lot of possible different disorders that have a similar manifestation in symptomology (inattention, impulsiveness and hyperactivity). Meaning, your "ADHD" could be caused by less receptors in the brain, mine could be something wrong with the limbic system and prefrontal cortex. Just because 20 people here have this part wrong, 40 in another area... does not mean imaging is debunked.

It means we don't know what is ADHD and what is not. We see images of different things happening in the brain, but which is actually "ADHD" is not known.

Look here for example: a systematic review of different studies on where ADHD is in the brain. Differs by study, by gender, by comorbid conditions... http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0924977X13003428 This study came to the conclusion that brain volumes normalize eventually, but other studies have seen the opposite.

http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/adhd/brain-imaging-data-adhd this is a very good summary of current research (well kind of there's a lot more recent stuff, but this is a good summary of what research has found from imaging of brains with ADHD.
"Neuropsychological studies have implicated the frontal cortical regions of the brain and the circuits linking them to the basal ganglia as critical to executive function, attention and the ability to exercise inhibition... Replicable findings using larger samples have implicated brain regions long suspected to play a role in ADHD, but have also identified neural circuitry not previously considered in the context of pathophysiological models. Neuroimaging assays have most consistently implicated abnormalities of the dorsal prefrontal cortex and basal ganglia in the pathophysiology of ADHD..."

"Neuroimaging data indicated, in addition to smaller prefrontal and basal ganglia structures, a decreased volume of the posterior-inferior vermis of the cerebellum (Berquin et al., 1998; Castellanos et al., 2001; Mostofsky et al., 1998), a region that is thought to be important in attentional processing (Middleton and Strick, 1994). Furthermore, the interpretation of some data proposes increased density of striatal dopamine transporters in adults with ADHD (Dougherty et al., 1999; Dresel et al., 2000). One study, however, reported no significant difference in striatal dopamine transporter density (van Dyck et al., 2002).

"Genetic assays of executive attention (e.g., examining the gene that codes for catechol-O-methyltransferase [COMT]) have been few but with intriguing results (Fan et al., 2003, 2001; Fossella et al., 2003, 2002a, 2002b). For example, control participants with the valine/valine genotype showed somewhat more efficient conflict resolution (i.e., lower Stroop conflict) than participants with the valine/methionine genotype (Sommer et al., 2004). The valine allele of COMT, which confers relatively higher levels of enzyme activity and thus lower relative amounts of extrasynaptic dopamine, has been examined in the context of neuroimaging studies in which it was correlated with lower activity of the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex (Egan et al., 2001). Frontal attentional networks may provide insights into pathologies of higher cognition, but there is already compelling evidence relating these networks to ADHD (Berger and Posner, 2000).

In conclusion, the hypothesis that ADHD is a syndrome with multiple distinct endophenotypes and several different etiological mechanisms (Castellanos and Tannock, 2002) must be constrained by neuroimaging findings and behavioral results. Measures of cognitive inhibition, working memory and temporal processing will likely illuminate the neural bases of ADHD and further operationalize the roles of attention, impulsivity and disinhibition in the formulation of ADHD pathophysiology.

In other words I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THIS "NEUROLOGIST" IS LOOKING AT~ HE'S NOT LOOKING AT IMAGING THAT'S FOR CERTAIN. IT'S THERE ON THE STUPID SCANS, SO WHY CAN'T HE SEE IT?

InvitroCanibal
02-27-14, 03:22 PM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/21442976/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3184556/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3139398/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/7572706/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1247186/
http://www.additudemag.com/q&a/ask_the_add_medical_expert/print/7267.html
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/medicating/interviews/dodson.html

There's most sources, read away

InvitroCanibal
02-27-14, 03:26 PM
No, imaging is not debunked.

http://quackwatch.org/06ResearchProjects/amen.html
theres more let me know if you need more

Canadian Mess
02-27-14, 03:34 PM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/21442976/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3184556/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3139398/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/7572706/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1247186/
http://www.additudemag.com/q%26a/ask_the_add_medical_expert/7267.html
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/medicating/interviews/dodson.html

There's most sources, read away

I checked the first two sources. that did not say that imaging is debunked. The first one basically proposed that immune problems are associated with ADHD. The second one said that of 67 people in the study, 10 had celiac. And the third study basically proposed that our gut plays a big role in our eating and sleeping and then they talked about how it could be related to autism.

These do not debunk imaging of ADHD in the brain. You can take a nice look at a brain imaging scan in any study about the matter and it will be there.

The gut could certainly play a role in ADHD, but I don't think from what you have shown, the evidence is there in either direction. But certainly people who have allergies look like they have ADHD and in people with ADHD and have allergies, if you minimize the foods associated it decreases symptoms. But I don't think we are ready to say, ADHD is caused by the gut issues. Association is not causation and the evidence is not strong enough to make that link.

And the fourth study about fatty acid metabolism is also not set in stone. There have been several studies that contradict those findings and several that back it up.

My suggestion would be to look for meta-analysis of data about gut metabolism and ADHD. A meta-analysis or systematic review is stronger evidence of a proposed theory than one study alone. A study alone does not prove anything, it merely points in a direction for more research. Also look for randomized-control studies, and if you can find a systematic review of RCT for gut metabolism and ADHD it would be more stronger than what you have shown. What is necessary is critical analysis

InvitroCanibal
02-27-14, 03:34 PM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23397493/

In relation to cortisol levels being implicated in adhd

InvitroCanibal
02-27-14, 03:43 PM
I checked the first two sources. that did not say that imaging is debunked. The first one basically proposed that immune problems are associated with ADHD. The second one said that of 67 people in the study, 10 had celiac. And the third study basically proposed that our gut plays a big role in our eating and sleeping and then they talked about how it could be related to autism.

These do not debunk imaging of ADHD in the brain. You can take a nice look at a brain imaging scan in any study about the matter and it will be there.

The gut could certainly play a role in ADHD, but I don't think from what you have shown, the evidence is there in either direction. But certainly people who have allergies look like they have ADHD and in people with ADHD and have allergies, if you minimize the foods associated it decreases symptoms. But I don't think we are ready to say, ADHD is caused by the gut issues.

Those were not in relation to your comments but in relation to the comment prior.

I wasnt really debating you actually, I saw your post after I posted some of my sources. My honest opinion is, do your research (which you did) and make your own opinion (which you also did) if you want. If the conclusive answers were found they'd be found. It's simply my opinion.

My relative point was that, it's impossible for a doctor like that to say adhd does not exist when too many other factors are involved beyond his field of study. Disagree with me if you want, I honestly don't mind and welcome disagreement, I just don't have a lot of time to post every study. So just take it as my opinion and decide how you wanna see it.

I simply didn't want people to just read this forum and what the good doctor said and feel disheartened when there is so much more information coming out. The microbiota study is very interesting to me by the way, as I recently spoke to a microbiologist and he believed enteric flora held the secret to mental disorders. I can't say he's right or wrong, but I love theories.

Perhaps you are right though, my sources are rather lazy and I'm feeling unmotivated today. I feel like this topic is a shallow or broad argument and would require all the recent information to date. I have neither the strength nor will to get into that extensive of a debate.

InvitroCanibal
02-27-14, 04:12 PM
I second that motion. Where did you get that, Invitro? Its becoming more and more obvious that the intestinal tract has a tremendous influence on general health and well being, but this idea is totally new to me.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/15861016/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/4046902/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/11727202/

http://psychcentral.com/lib/brains-of-children-with-adhd-show-protein-deficiency/00013653

This last one below is a link to a pdf, sorry I couldnt get the link itself.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=wpwPU7LRF4ikyQHNnYDgBg&url=http://www.neurosupport.com/07_ADHD_Final.pdf&cd=4&ved=0CCsQFjAD&usg=AFQjCNF4epoapbsEeRvR62iy4hIfJ-O8AA.

I apologize if this isn't enough information, I read so many studies and I don't exactly keep a folder of every study of interest...though I think I will from now on as it's a pain to refind em all. I suppose I brought a knife to a gun fight by making an argument and not having all my sources on hand. I think I'll try to learn from that mistake lol.

In debate to these studies you may find the studies related to precursor therapy being ineffective but this means nothing in relation to the argument that its a malabsorption, or enzyme deficiency because supplementing it when the enzymes are not there or the absorption isnt possible does nothing to disprove it or treat it.

If more information is needed I suppose I'll have more later on as I compulsively have read up on it for about 9 years and hopefully will remember to save the studies I read. Ofcourse I'm not a scientist so I know I don't know everything and I'm open to the idea that I'm completely wrong. I just simply say I studied it for 9 years as a means to say I've read to many studies to keep track of, not that I know it all lol.

Fortune
02-27-14, 09:02 PM
The imaging was debunked. If the imaging did work and were the case we'd all be getting brain scans to prove our ADHD, and Dr.Amen would be the one leading the way as mental disorders enter a new era of proof and differential expertise.

Citation needed for that debunking. I was not referring to Dr. Amen's work, which I consider to largely be "woo" as some call it. I was instead referring to work done by George Bush (not either of the presidents):

Functional Neuroimaging of Attention Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder (http://www.researchgate.net/publication/7792678_Functional_neuroimaging_of_attention-deficithyperactivity_disorder_a_review_and_suggest ed_future_directions/file/79e4150f868924aae4.pdf).

Also, please note that I said "statistical tendency." It can't be used for diagnosis in individual cases because a significant number of brains overlap with typical brains. It's not a reliable method for identifying ADHD, but it serves as identifying statistical trends with people are are diagnosed with ADHD, thus providing neurological evidence for its existence.

A lot of this is somewhat a common sense factor, a 3 month effectiveness time for mood stabilizers or anti depressants indicates 2 things. Either BDNF or Endocrine relations. Now, you may ask how mood stabilizers or antidepressants relate to ADHD. Many mood stabilizers are being prescribed as an alternative to stimulants as well as anti depressants. If snri's were only useful for ADHD because of the neuroepinephrine component, than why doesn't strattera work effectively for more ADHD types?

Asserting something as "common sense" is meaningless. The rest of it is difficult to parse. Could you explain your point again?

Your strattera question is begging the question.

The second aspect is that ADHD people do infact get the calming effect more often than non adhd people. I found only one study that said otherwise which was done in the 1970's, on children. They hardly had as much of an understanding on the disorder then. They also tended to misdiagnose it on dyslexic and autistic children. If you can find another study, by all means post or send it to me. My opinion is only as good as the information I find.

Probably because people with ADHD have anxiety more than people who don't have ADHD.

To say ADHD doesn't exist has a financial motivator by the way.

A lot of this has to do with the insurance companies that provide health care lobbying for ADHD to disappear. They fear the medications aspect because a lot of their profits are being lost to ADHD patients who must take medications for the rest of their life. It's mainly about the insurance companies losing money. Theirs a silent war going on between the pharmaceutical companies and insurance companies.

I don't believe this at all. I mean, literally, I do not think this has any factual basis.

Fortune
02-27-14, 09:13 PM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/21442976/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3184556/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3139398/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/7572706/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1247186/
http://www.additudemag.com/q&a/ask_the_add_medical_expert/print/7267.html
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/medicating/interviews/dodson.html

There's most sources, read away

First one is an unreadable block of text.

The second one indicates symptoms of celiac were alleviated with a gluten free diet. Having celiac and ADHD is virtually guaranteed to increase the difficulties associated with ADHD.

The third references studies like the second.

The fourth noted an anomaly in boys with ADHD. Connecting it directly to ADHD's etiology needs more work.

The fifth one is interesting, although I don't think it's controversial that environmental contaminants can have an impact on a developing fetus. I don't see how it connects to the digestive system, however.

The sixth one just says what I tried to indicate in my post: That you can't use brain scans to diagnose ADHD. But that doesn't debunk anything, because the neuroimaging studies I referenced weren't about diagnosis.

The seventh indicates what has been known all along: That behavioral therapy doesn't help with ADHD, but stimulant medications do.

I don't see a complete picture that implicates the gut in ADHD's etiology. What did I miss?

I'm not just trying to shoot you down although I realize it may come across that way. I am trying to understand where you're coming from.

Fortune
02-27-14, 09:14 PM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23397493/

In relation to cortisol levels being implicated in adhd

Cortisol is called the "stress hormone." ADHD is correlated with increased stress.

Fortune
02-27-14, 09:15 PM
http://quackwatch.org/06ResearchProjects/amen.html
theres more let me know if you need more

Just a note here that I was not referring to Amen at all, but to other studies that have not themselves been debunked.

InvitroCanibal
02-28-14, 05:08 PM
I don't believe this at all. I mean, literally, I do not think this has any factual basis.



In regards to the insurance companies.

http://www forbes com/sites/rickungar/2012/06/25/busted-health-insurers-secretly-spent-huge-to-defeat-health-care-reform-while-pretending-to-support-obamacare/

https://www opensecrets org/news/2013/03/paul-ryans-connections-to-insurance.html

https://www opensecrets org/news/2013/09/rep-spencer-bachus-popular-with-the-finance-sector-to-leave-congress.html

https://www opensecrets org/news/2012/02/wall-street-money-continues-to-flow-romney.html

Since these are all just articles, just take it as my opinion and leave it at that. Feel free to read if you want on the topic of insurance and lobbying campaigns. Hopefully the links work.

InvitroCanibal
02-28-14, 07:27 PM
Just a note here that I was not referring to Amen at all, but to other studies that have not themselves been debunked.
Citation needed for that debunking. I was not referring to Dr. Amen's work, which I consider to largely be "woo" as some call it. I was instead referring to work done by George Bush (not either of the presidents):

Functional Neuroimaging of Attention Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder (http://www.researchgate.net/publication/7792678_Functional_neuroimaging_of_attention-deficithyperactivity_disorder_a_review_and_suggest ed_future_directions/file/79e4150f868924aae4.pdf).

Also, please note that I said "statistical tendency." It can't be used for diagnosis in individual cases because a significant number of brains overlap with typical brains. It's not a reliable method for identifying ADHD, but it serves as identifying statistical trends with people are are diagnosed with ADHD, thus providing neurological evidence for its existence.



Asserting something as "common sense" is meaningless. The rest of it is difficult to parse. Could you explain your point again?

Your strattera question is begging the question.



Probably because people with ADHD have anxiety more than people who don't have ADHD.



I don't believe this at all. I mean, literally, I do not think this has any factual basis.



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As for the rest of this ^ I'll first cover why neuroimaging can't work in a very basic way and then expand on my thinking. I'll use quotes instead of links.

Firstly, the reason why neuroimaging isn't predictive of ADHD is because there are too many locations for such a disorder to exist. ADHD is more of a collection of symptoms than a disorder in of itself though it can be. An example of what I mean can be displayed in this article

http://www.additudemag.com/adhd/article/2511.html

In which bipolar and adhd cocross and exist on many similar symptom profiles.
Now let’s look at possible places where adhd can occur.
This excerpt from Wikipedia just shows that yes, ADHD can exist here, also bipolar..schizophrenia….conduct disorders….depression…anxiety…panic disorder….and so on and so on

“The locus coeruleus (also spelled locus caeruleus or locus ceruleus) is a nucleus in the pons (part of the brainstem) involved with physiological responses to stress and panic (1)
It is related to many functions via its widespread projections. The LC-NA system modulates cortical, subcortical, cerebellar, brainstem, and spinal cord circuits. Some of the most important functions influenced by this system are

Neuroplasticity
Arousal and sleep-wake cycle
Attention and memory
Emotions
Behavioral flexibility, behavioral inhibition and stress (psychological)
Posture and balance “

Now lets look at the PFC specifically what it does in relation to mental disorders
“The prefrontal cortex is of significant importance when top-down processing is needed. Top-down processing by definition is when behavior is guided by internal states or intentions. According to the two, “The PFC is critical in situations when the mappings between sensory inputs, thoughts, and actions either are weakly established relative to other existing ones or are rapidly changing”.[22] An example of this can be portrayed in the Wisconsin Card Sorting Test (WCST). Subjects engaging in this task are instructed to sort cards according to the shape, color, or number of symbols appearing on them. The thought is that any given card can be associated with a number of actions and no single stimulus-response mapping will work. Human subjects with PFC damage are able to sort the card in the initial simple tasks, but unable to do so as the rules of classification change.

Miller and Cohen conclude that the implications of their theory can explain how much of a role the PFC has in guiding control of cognitive actions. In the researchers' own words, they claim that, “depending on their target of influence, representations in the PFC can function variously as attentional templates, rules, or goals by providing top-down bias signals to other parts of the brain that guide the flow of activity along the pathways needed to perform a task”.[22]-quoted from Wikipedia

Now lets look at the basal ganglia,

“The basal ganglia is associated with a variety of functions including: control of voluntary motor movements, procedural learning, routine behaviors or "habits" such as bruxism, eye movements, cognition[1] and emotion.”- quoted from Wikipedia

“The main three components of the basal ganglia are the striatum (caudate nucleus and putamen), the globus pallidus (the substantia nigra and the nucleus accumbens) and the subthalamic nucleus.[5] Each of these areas has a complex internal anatomical and neurochemical organization. The largest component, the striatum, receives input from many brain areas beyond the basal ganglia, but only sends output to components of the basal ganglia. The pallidum receives input from the striatum, and sends inhibitory output to a number of motor-related areas. The substantia nigra is the source of the striatal input of the neurotransmitter dopamine, which plays an important role in basal ganglia function. The subthalamic nucleus receives input mainly from the striatum and cerebral cortex, and projects to the globus pallidus.” also quoted from Wikipedia

All these regions are indicated for ADHD, they are also indicated for Bipolar, Parkinsons, depression, OCD and more
How do you know if a smaller area here or there determines which of this disorders? Some..none..both? How do you know what medications will work? And this is just the brain, it doesn’t even begin to touch our individual metabolisms which I’ll be getting to in a second.

Metabolism-
Metabolic pathways are being shown to play a large role in ADHD as well. Here is an excerpt from the following article to paraphrase my point-
“Instead, obesity and ADHD demonstrate significant comorbidity. We propose that obesity and ADHD represent different manifestations of the same underlying dysfunction, a phenomenon we term environmental oversampling syndrome. Oversupply of information in the form of nutritional content and sensory content may independently predispose to both obesity and ADHD. Moreover, the pathogenic mechanisms of these conditions may overlap such that nutritional excess contributes to ADHD and cognitive hyperstimulation contributes to obesity. The overlapping effects of medications provide further evidence towards the existence of shared etiologic pathways. Metabolism and cognition may represent parallel systems of intelligence, and oversampling of content may constitute the source of parallel dysfunctions”- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15905045
Another element which I discussed are enzyme levels, proteins, and other factors, here is one
“Tetrahydrobiopterin (BH4, THB, trade name Kuvan) or sapropterin (INN) is a naturally occurring essential cofactor of the three aromatic amino acid hydroxylase enzymes, used in the degradation of amino acid phenylalanine and in the biosynthesis of the neurotransmitters serotonin (5-hydroxytryptamine, 5-HT), melatonin, dopamine, norepinephrine (noradrenaline), epinephrine (adrenaline), and is a cofactor for the production of nitric oxide (NO) by the nitric oxide synthases.[1]”
Functions

“Tetrahydrobiopterin has the following responsibilities as a cofactor:

Tryptophan hydroxylase (TPH) for the conversion of L-tryptophan (TRP) to 5-hydroxytryptophan (5-HTP)
Phenylalanine hydroxylase (PAH) for conversion of L-phenylalanine (PHE) to L-tyrosine (TYR)
Tyrosine hydroxylase (TH) for the conversion of L-tyrosine to L-DOPA (DOPA)
Nitric oxide synthase (NOS) for conversion of a guanidino nitrogen of L-arginine (L-Arg) to nitric oxide (NO)
Alkylglycerol monooxygenase (AGMO) for the conversion of 1-alkyl-sn-glycerol to 1-hydroxyalkyl-sn-glycerol”
“Tetrahydrobiopterin has multiple roles in human biochemistry. One is to convert amino acids such as phenylalanine, tyrosine, and tryptophan to precursors of dopamine and serotonin, the body's primary neurotransmitters). Due to its role in the conversion of L-tyrosine into L-dopa, which is the precursor for dopamine, a deficiency in tetrahydrobiopterin can cause severe neurological issues unrelated to a toxic buildup of L-phenylalanine; dopamine is a vital neurotransmitter, and is the precursor of norepinephrine and epinephrine. Thus, a deficiency of BH4 can lead to systemic deficiencies of dopamine, norepinephrine, and epinephrine. In fact, one of the primary conditions that can result from GTPCH-related BH4 deficiency is dopamine-responsive dystonia;[4] currently, this condition is typically treated with carbidopa/levodopa, which directly restores dopamine levels within the brain.”-wikipedia again

Now that was a shallow basis on metabolism and I’ll cover it further as I go more into it but I want to go back to the neuroimaging aspect which is what this reponse is all about. You say neuroimaging works as a form of statistical relevance..how? Neuroglial cells are indicated for disorders as well…
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23665337 --> this study says- “Glial cells play an important role in normal brain function and emerging evidence would suggest that their dysfunction may be responsible for some epileptic disease states. Neuroimaging of glial cells is desirable, but there are no clear methods to assess neither their function nor localization.”
Epileptic disease states…hmmm I wonder what that has to do with bipolar..adhd…and epilepsy..well follow me to the ligand gated channels kids…
Ligand-gated ion channels (LGICs) are a group of transmembrane ion channel proteins which open to allow ions such as Na+, K+, Ca2+, or Cl- to pass through the membrane in response to the binding of a chemical messenger (i.e. a ligand),[1] such as a neurotransmitter.[2] wikipedia
“Ligand-gated ion channels (LGIC) play a central role in inter-cellular communication. This key function has two consequences: (i) these receptor channels are major targets for drug discovery because of their potential involvement in numerous human brain diseases;” http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3202823/
“Altered GABA(B)-receptor function is implicated in spike-wave seizures. Ionotropic glutamate receptors are implicated in the sustained depolarisation phase of PDS and in epileptogenesis both in animals and humans; felbamate, phenobarbital and topiramate block these receptors, and attenuation of glutamatergic excitatory transmission is another new mechanistic approach. Mutations in the nicotinic acetylcholine receptor are the substrates for the nocturnal frontal lobe epilepsy. The knowledge of the role of the ion channels in the epilepsies is allowing the design of new and more specific therapeutic strategies.” http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15974971

Hmm glutamate excitatory transmission… what does this have to do with other disorders?
Well we have to first define glutamate and it’s method of action so…
“Glutamate receptors are synaptic receptors located primarily on the membranes of neuronal cells. Glutamate (glutamic acid) is abundant in the human body, but particularly in the nervous system and especially prominent in the human brain where it is the body's most prominent neurotransmitter, the brain's main excitatory neurotransmitter, and also the precursor for GABA, the brain's main inhibitory neurotransmitter.[1] Glutamate receptors are responsible for the glutamate-mediated postsynaptic excitation of neural cells, and are important for neural communication, memory formation, learning, and regulation.”

“Glutamate receptors are implicated in a number of neurological conditions. Their central role in excitotoxicity and prevalence in the central nervous system has been linked or speculated to be linked to many neurodegenerative diseases, and several other conditions have been further linked to glutamate receptor gene mutations or receptor autoantigen/antibody activity.” - Wiki—awesome---pedia

That last section I bolded is of special interest to me, what other conditions could they be referring to?
Well, it states that antibodies are related to our immune system, our immune system regulates inflammation, but is inflammation indicated for ADHD? Well remember the article I showed you, showing a link between adhd and obesity…read this
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/12/131202112156.htm
[I]“The FASEB Journal, scientists show that there is an abnormal amount of an inflammatory protein called PAR2 in the abdominal fat tissue of overweight and obese humans and rats. This protein is also increased on the surfaces of human immune cells by common fatty acids in the diet. When obese rats on a diet high in sugar and fat were given a new oral drug that binds to PAR2, the inflammation-causing properties of this protein were blocked, as were other effects of the high-fat and high-sugar diet--including obesity itself.”
But wait..what is PAR2?
“Protease activated receptor 2 (PAR2) also known as coagulation factor II (thrombin) receptor-like 1 (F2RL1) or G-protein coupled receptor 11 (GPR11) is a protein that in humans is encoded by the F2RL1 gene. PAR2 modulates inflammatory responses and acts as a sensor for proteolytic enzymes generated during infection.[1]”
And a proteolytic enzyme is…
“A protease (also termed peptidase or proteinase) is any enzyme that performs proteolysis, that is, begins protein catabolism by hydrolysis of the peptide bonds that link amino acids together in the polypeptide chain forming the protein. Proteases have evolved multiple times, and different classes of protease can perform the same reaction by completely different catalytic mechanisms. Proteases can be found in animals, plants, bacteria, archea and viruses.”
But wait I’m getting ahead of myself….
“Multiple lines of evidence suggest that inflammation and glutamate dysfunction contribute to
the pathophysiology of depression. In this review we provide an overview of how these two systems
may interact. Excess levels of inflammatory mediators occur in a subgroup of depressed patients. Studies of acute experimental activation of the immune system with endotoxin and of chronic activation during interferon-α treatment show that inflammation can cause depression. Peripheral inflammation leads to microglial activation which could interfere with excitatory amino acid metabolism leading to inappropriate glutamate receptor activation. Loss of astroglia, a feature of depression, upsets the balance of anti- and pro-inflammatory mediators and further impairs the removal of excitatory amino acids. Microglia activated by excess inflammation, astroglial loss, and inappropriate glutamate receptor activation” - http://scholar.google.com/scholar_url?hl=en&q=http://www.researchgate.net/publication/5288564_Inflammation_glutamate_and_glia_in_depress ion_a_literature_review/file/72e7e51b427c530cba.pdf&sa=X&scisig=AAGBfm1MFUz2QDTcndItk4dnA7MfYmybaA&oi=scholarr
hope it works ^ it’s a pdf
It say’s something about interferon alpha treatment doesn’t it?
All interferons share several common effects; they are antiviral agents and can fight tumors.
“cells, in response to interferon, produce large amounts of an enzyme known as protein kinase R (PKR). This enzyme phosphorylates a protein known as eIF-2 in response to new viral infections; the phosphorylated eIF-2 forms an inactive complex with another protein, called eIF2B, to reduce protein synthesis within the cell. Another cellular enzyme, RNAse L—also induced following PKR activation—destroys RNA within the cells to further reduce protein synthesis of both viral and host genes. Inhibited protein synthesis destroys both the virus and infected host cells. In addition, interferons induce production of hundreds of other proteins—known collectively as interferon-stimulated genes (ISGs)—that have roles in combating viruses.[4][5] They also limit viral spread by increasing p53 activity, which kills virus-infected cells by promoting apoptosis.[6][7] The effect of IFN on p53 is also linked to its protective role against certain cancers.[6]”
And what is PKR?
“Protein kinase RNA-activated also known as protein kinase R (PKR), interferon-induced, double-stranded RNA-activated protein kinase, or eukaryotic translation initiation factor 2-alpha kinase 2 (EIF2AK2) is an enzyme that in humans is encoded by the EIF2AK2 gene.[1][2]” translating too
“PKR is activated by double-stranded RNA (dsRNA), the synthesis of which is caused virally. PKR can also be activated by the protein PACT or by heparin. PKR contains an N-terminal dsRNA binding domain (dsRBD) and a C-terminal kinase domain, that gives it pro-apoptotic (cell-killing) functions.”
PKR stress pathway
“PKR is in the center of cellular response to different stress signals such as pathogens, lack of nutrients, cytokines, irradiation, mechanical stress or stress of endoplasmic reticulum (ER). PKR pathway leads to stress response through activation of other stress pathway such as JNK, p38, NFkB, PP2A and phosphorylation of EIF2A. ER stress caused by excess of unfolded proteins leads to inflammatory responses. PKR contributes to this response by interacting with several inflammatory kinases such as IKK, JNK, ElF2A, insulin receptor and others. This metabolically activated inflammatory complex is called metabolic inflammasome or metaflammasome.[3][4]”
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/sci/2014-02/28/c_133151056.htm
“Germany's Max Planck Institute of Biochemistry announced Friday that their researchers could uncover an entire network of cellular helpers and thus identify new regulatory mechanisms of the cellular stress response, when a cell is exposed to dangerous environmental conditions.”
"Our results could also be of use for investigating neurodegenerative diseases such as Alzheimer's or Parkinson's," said institute's PhD student Christian Loew.”
http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v38/n5/full/npp2012248a.html easiest way to summarize the article is by the title “Connecting inflammation with glutamate agonism in suicidality”
I’m using this as an example that a cell stress response can cause neurodegeneration, now if glutamate receptors can induce an immune response, induce inflammation, and create degeneration than could this cause a host of other mental disorders? My point is that ADHD’s cause like others seem to all be linked, but neuroimaging won’t necessarily be able to distinguish between the disorders nor diagnose.
And if my summarizing isn’t enough for you, here is another article…
“Neurobehavioural deficits associated with apoptotic neurodegeneration and vulnerability for ADHD.” -- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15639778
Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD)
“In 2006 the glutamate receptor subunit gene GRIN2B (responsible for key functions in memory and learning) was associated with ADHD.[49] This followed earlier studies showing a link between glutamate modulation and hyperactivity (2001),[50][50] and then between the SLC1A3 solute carrier gene-encoding part of the glutamate transporter process that mapped to a chromosome (5p12) noted in multiple ADHD genome scans.[51]
Further mutations to four different metabotropic glutamate receptor genes were identified in a study of 1013 paediatric ADHD patients compared to 4105 non-ADHD controls, replicated in a subsequent study of 2500 more patients. Deletions and duplications affected GRM1, GRM5, GRM7 and GRM8. The study concluded that "CNVs affecting metabotropic glutamate receptor genes were enriched across all cohorts (P = 2.1 10−9)", "over 200 genes interacting with glutamate receptors [. .] were collectively affected by CNVs", "major hubs of the (affected genes') network include TNIK50, GNAQ51, and CALM", and "the fact that children with ADHD are more likely to have alterations in these genes reinforces previous evidence that the GRM pathway is important in ADHD".[46]
A SciBX article in January 2012 commented that "UPenn and MIT teams have independently converged on mGluRs as players in ADHD and autism. The findings suggest agonizing mGluRs in patients with ADHD".[52]” our friend Wikipedia
Now, moving on and going onto the stomach and enzymes, we know that proteases play a role in modulating inflammation in the body, but where is one source of these proteases…why I believe it’s in the stomach sir?
“Stomach
The enzymes that are secreted in the stomach are called gastric enzymes. The stomach plays a major role in digestion, both in a mechanical sense by mixing and crushing the food, and also in an enzymatic sense, by digesting it. The following are the enzymes produced by the stomach and their respective function:
Pepsinogen is the main gastric enzyme. It is produced by the stomach cells called "chief cells" in its inactive form pepsinogen, which is a zymogen. Pepsinogen is then activated by the stomach acid into its active form, pepsin. Pepsin breaks down the protein in the food into smaller particles, such as peptide fragments and amino acids. Protein digestion, therefore, first starts in the stomach, unlike carbohydrate and lipids, which start their digestion in the mouth.
Hydrochloric acid (HCl): This is in essence positively charged hydrogen atoms (H), or in lay-terms stomach acid, and is produced by the cells of the stomach called parietal cells. HCl mainly functions to denature the proteins ingested, to destroy any bacteria or virus that remains in the food, and also to activate pepsinogen into pepsin.
Intrinsic factor (IF): Intrinsic factor is produced by the parietal cells of the stomach. Vitamin B12 (Vit. B12) is an important vitamin that requires assistance for absorption in terminal ileum. Initially in the saliva, haptocorrin secreted by salivary glands binds Vit. B, creating a Vit B12-Haptocorrin complex. The purpose of this complex is to protect Vitamin B12 from hydrochloric acid produced in the stomach. Once the stomach content exits the stomach into the duodenum, haptocorrin is cleaved with pancreatic enzymes, releasing the intact vitamin B12. Intrinsic factor (IF) produced by the parietal cells then binds Vitamin B12, creating a Vit. B12-IF complex. This complex is then absorbed at the terminal portion of the ileum.
Mucin: The stomach has a priority to destroy the bacteria and viruses using its highly acidic environment but also has a duty to protect its own lining from its acid. The way that the stomach achieves this is by secreting mucin and bicarbonate via its mucous cells, and also by having a rapid cell turn-over.
Gastrin: This is an important hormone produced by the "G cells" of the stomach. G cells produce gastrin in response to stomach stretching occurring after food enters it, and also after stomach exposure to protein. Gastrin is an endocrine hormone and therefore enters the bloodstream and eventually returns to the stomach where it stimulates parietal cells to produce hydrochloric acid (HCl) and Intrinsic factor (IF).
Gastric Lipase: Gastric lipase is an acidic lipase secreted by the gastric chief cells in the fundic mucosa in the stomach. It has a pH optimum of 3-6. Gastric lipase, together with lingual lipase, comprise the two acidic lipases. These lipases, unlike alkaline lipases (such as pancreatic lipase), do not require bile acid or colipase for optimal enzymatic activity. Acidic lipases make up 30% of lipid hydrolysis occurring during digestion in the human adult, with gastric lipase contributing the most of the two acidic lipases. In neonates, acidic lipases are much more important, providing up to 50% of total lipolytic activity.

Of note is the division of function between the cells covering the stomach. There are four types of cells in the stomach:
Parietal cells: Produce hydrochloric acid and intrinsic factor.
Gastric chief cells: Produce pepsinogen. Chief cells are mainly found in the body of stomach, which is the middle or superior anatomic portion of the stomach.
Mucous neck and pit cells: Produce mucin and bicarbonate to create a "neutral zone" to protect the stomach lining from the acid or irritants in the stomach chyme.
G cells: Produce the hormone gastrin in response to distention of the stomach mucosa or protein, and stimulate parietal cells production of their secretion. G cells are located in the antrum of the stomach, which is the most inferior region of the stomach.
Secretion by the previous cells is controlled by the enteric nervous system. Distention in the stomach or innervation by the vagus nerve (via the parasympathetic division of the autonomic nervous system) activates the ENS, in turn leading to the release of acetylcholine. Once present, acetylcholine activates G cells and parietal cells.”
“Intrinsic factor (IF), also known as gastric intrinsic factor (GIF), is a glycoprotein produced by the parietal cells of the stomach. It is necessary for the absorption of vitamin B12 (cobalamin)”
A misproduction of IF can produce a vitamin b12 deficiency, and what does that lead to?
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/09/110926165852.htm --> “ Low vitamin B12 levels may lead to brain shrinkage, cognitive problems”
Well that’s all I have in me to write today….i’m tired now…so as I said, just take it as my opinion...there are many things I have not covered, this was mainly one aspect of metabolism, and just ONE possible cause for ADHD that an FMRI may not be able to locate because glutamate receptors are located throughout the brain. This makes it very unlikely that a neurologist could distinguish between one form of deregulation and the resulting mental disorder and another.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK5287/ glutamate receptors are found throughout he brain
If any of what I stated is unclear, I apologize, I’m not good at explaining these things

And that was just covering why FMRI's can't tell you everything, I still have more to say in regards to stress and how these medications affect the endocrine system....next post

InvitroCanibal
02-28-14, 07:48 PM
Another way to summarize this argument is for all you visual learners, when they can make fmri's take a picture of a cell doing that, that's when i'll know they can diagnose adhd based on fmri's alone.

http://athletewithstent.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/KEGG-Intermediary-Metabolism.png

<img src="http://athletewithstent.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/KEGG-Intermediary-Metabolism.png" height="775" width="775"/>

Fortune
02-28-14, 09:36 PM
In regards to the insurance companies.

(snip political links)

Since these are all just articles, just take it as my opinion and leave it at that. Feel free to read if you want on the topic of insurance and lobbying campaigns. Hopefully the links work.

I'm perfectly aware of all of that. There's a difference between "insurance companies don't want to pay" and "insurance companies are specifically targeting ADHD to discredit so they don't have to pay for relatively inexpensive prescriptions."

Fortune
02-28-14, 09:41 PM
As for the rest of this ^ I'll first cover why neuroimaging can't work in a very basic way and then expand on my thinking. I'll use quotes instead of links.

Firstly, the reason why neuroimaging isn't predictive of ADHD is because there are too many locations for such a disorder to exist. ADHD is more of a collection of symptoms than a disorder in of itself though it can be. An example of what I mean can be displayed in this article

You keep focusing on these brain scans predicting or diagnosing ADHD, but I never said they could and specifically said they could not. The point of these scans is not to predict ADHD or diagnose ADHD but to identify neurological differences in the population of people diagnosed with ADHD. These differences were identified within that population.

Your rebuttal is for an argument different from the one I made.

Blackstar
02-28-14, 10:30 PM
the debate's hot enough :)

InvitroCanibal
03-01-14, 03:17 AM
You keep focusing on these brain scans predicting or diagnosing ADHD, but I never said they could and specifically said they could not. The point of these scans is not to predict ADHD or diagnose ADHD but to identify neurological differences in the population of people diagnosed with ADHD. These differences were identified within that population.

Your rebuttal is for an argument different from the one I made.

Well you asked why I said it was debunked in regards to adhd, you said you wanted me to better clarify my point and citations. I'm not sure what else I'm supposed to do here?

Actually I'm debating the neurologist who claims adhd doesn't exist
I can totally see fmri's or a varied imaging group working at some point and I'm kool with the research but I hate when neurologists make such bold blanket statements.

When I said debunked, I meant not ready to be used for ADHD diagnosing. I explained why I think that. I also explained and cited why I believe metabolism is related to adhd as you asked for.

As I said before it's such a large topic, It's lunacy to think one method of finding adhd exists. I agree though that fmri's show injury, structural issues and other aspects but the hemispheres attributed to one disorder versus another is where it becomes gray. Many disorders show up in the same regions. Mimic each other disorder and so on.

Either way if you disagree that's fine. This is still opinions.

You wanted citations and explanations and I provided it, its that simple.

If you want me to delve into the microbiota and cortisol connections I can. I love researching this stuff haha

InvitroCanibal
03-01-14, 03:56 AM
I'm perfectly aware of all of that. There's a difference between "insurance companies don't want to pay" and "insurance companies are specifically targeting ADHD to discredit so they don't have to pay for relatively inexpensive prescriptions."

Well it does when forbes is controlled by the same people who do fox news. New york times has been ramming adhd non stop for about 3 years right around when the health care reforms were being implemented. I tend to be suspicious of news that seems bias, the first thing I ask to myself is who pays the bills for them?

Congress men are getting caught taking bribes from them, they really are pushing back against all of it. Now I make the personal leap that perhaps the medications and pharmaceutical costs are what is motivating the back lash in media recently against adhd. Whether im right or wrong is fine, I'm not someone who gets worked up about motives and agendas.

I just question it when it has to do with the distribution of information. Why is this person telling me this? Why do they so very much want adhd not to exist? Why are they connected to the insurance companies who stand to lose billions on medications? Why are they desperately bribing politicians?

Never believe information if you don't believe in the persons' motives for providing it. Well that's just what I think.

But that's off topic I suppose.

meadd823
03-04-14, 02:39 AM
As far as I am concerned all the to many question are being asked and none of them are the one and only question I would ask:

Where is the list of reasons I should give a crap . . . . All sort of people say all sorts of crap and most of it isn't even good for fertilizing house plants.

Chivalry
03-16-14, 06:23 PM
Please note that the daily mail is a load of rubbish.

Its not a real news paper.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=daily%20mail

Corina86
03-17-14, 07:20 AM
Please note that the daily mail is a load of rubbish.

Its not a real news paper.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=daily%20mail

:thankyou::thankyou::lol::lol::lol:


Brilliant link!

"I prefer to call it a racist (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=racist), sexist (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sexist), slanderous (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=slanderous), homophobic (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=homophobic), unprofessional (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=unprofessional), sensationalist (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sensationalist) Hitler (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Hitler) fanzine (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fanzine). They are "morally outraged" by just about everything. Calls itself the only newspaper that stands up for what it believes in (aka. talks ********). The only reason I'm ever buy the Daily Mail is to start a fire"

SB_UK
03-24-14, 11:36 AM
I saw this chap all over the place, sadly -
eg here in The Times
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/arts/books/non-fiction/article4037613.ece

and here's another:
http://time.com/25370/doctor-adhd-does-not-exist/

The boy Saul gets about.

The Daily Mail is an awful thing, though.
The Times a Murdoch presentation.

Don't know anything about 'Time' magazine.

Fuzzy12
03-24-14, 11:40 AM
Do you get the daily mail in Romania?? I'm so sorry Corina that now even those outside the UK are being subjected to it. :confused:

Or maybe you read it online? Why? Don't. If I'd ever got my hands on the Daily Mail before I came to the UK I doubt I'd have wanted to move here. :doh:

SB_UK
03-24-14, 11:42 AM
R.Saul is a terrible profanity if shouted out loud in the UK; I think it shows.

SB_UK
03-24-14, 11:52 AM
The EEG differences should be enough to prove something strange is going on here.

There's enough 'hard' data on reduced freq alpha and increased frequency theta EEGs to know something very significant is going on with ADHD.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24453310
Combined, these three EEG measures predicted diagnosis with 70% accuracy.

Reduced high / Increased low frequency EEGs ... ... ... R ADD.

Better RADD than RS aul.

SB_UK
03-24-14, 03:09 PM
I was going to suggest that maybe somebody tests us with tasks and examines our EEGs as the harder we try the more we zone out ... but but but ...

http://www.biologicalpsychiatryjournal.com/article/S0006-3223%2813%2900776-2/abstract
Our results suggest that task-induced changes in EEG oscillations provide an objective measurefor identifying ADHD.
We're on to it bub.

DistractedLemur
03-24-14, 06:52 PM
"IS RIP-OFF BRITAIN GIVING ENGLAND CANCER?"

The Daily Mail headline generator:
http://www.qwghlm.co.uk/toys/dailymail/

And I've just found this wonderful Daily Mail article generator too:
http://charlieharvey.org.uk/daily_mail/

spunkysmum
03-24-14, 07:24 PM
I've been running into this piece of crap article all day today. Argh.

SB_UK
03-25-14, 05:16 AM
"It's official: Sitting around really does give you a fat behind," the Mail Online reports. Coming soon ... ...
http://www.nhs.uk/news/2014/03March/PublishingImages/large-bottom_166x138_186565542.jpg
http://www.nhs.uk/news/2014/03March/Pages/Couch-potato-lifestyle-linked-to-bigger-bums.aspx
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Amtram
03-25-14, 06:11 AM
It's publicity. The book has either just been released or is just about to. The first articles started to appear when its release was announced.

Gina
05-25-14, 01:36 AM
In my opinion it is sensationalism for anyone to even consider publishing this. If he had published it himself under his own name, it would have been deservedly ignored.

Instead it was published by Rupert Murdoch's company: HarperCollins.

They had it translated into several other languages, too, before the roll-out.

Bethylphenidate
07-30-14, 08:57 AM
This type of thing used to downright irritate me! Keywords: "used to."

People posting on Facebook that the man who "invented" ADHD admitted that it doesn't exist... people authoritatively telling others that FD&C Red Dye #40 "causes" ADHD... people insisting that their nephew doesn't have ADHD because "he can focus on a video game for three hours"...

But... I can't get mad anymore. I have more important s*** to worry about, like actually having this specific set of symptoms that I don't care what you call.

I'm not saying it's easy to ignore others' ignorance because it certainly is not. But I've come to realize ADHD is "my" own "problem." If you can't be supportive or at least keep your mouth shut, well then... go spew your nonsense to someone else who will listen. I won't. If you're an ignorant fool, that's your problem. If I let your ignorance affect the disorder that I KNOW I have, that's my fault.

So people are gonna read that article, and believe it. They're gonna compare that to some blog article written by a fellow layman that states Red40 causes ADHD, and it will reaffirm their belief that ADHD is a sham. They'll discuss it with their friends and go on with their happy little lives thinking we're all just a bunch of overreacting, hyperactive children in adult bodies.

Let them.

Mantaray14
08-01-14, 10:26 AM
I thumbed thru that book the other day at the book store. Just a bunch re-hashed information compiled in a specific way in an attempt to legitimize the authors point. Nothing new or insightful. Id love to believe it, but I call bs on this one. Designed to sell books and make headlines surely. In my child's case, according to this author, he would have sensory disorder, not add-pi which would be treated with the same medications he gets now currently. Big whoopee.

Arthas
08-05-14, 03:57 PM
I came across this book some time ago when my wife saw it on some TV show. Best review I've seen on Amazon:
A waste of time. Attempts to say ADHD does not exist by redefining what ADHD is and then pointing out that most cases don't fit the definition. A reference for ADHD deniers.
I can redefine a potato as a coffee cup and tell you coffee won't fit into it, so clearly, coffee cups do not exist. Or potatoes. You'd then call me a raving lunatic and a potato denier.

aeon
08-05-14, 09:57 PM
Daily Mail? Rupert Murdoch? HarperCollins?

Oh, OK, I thought for a femtosecond we were being serious. :p

Arthas
08-06-14, 10:07 PM
Daily Mail? Rupert Murdoch? HarperCollins?

Oh, OK, I thought for a femtosecond we were being serious. :p

Well, serious insofar as this book exists and that its fairly damaging to the perception of ADHD. Not so much because its... Oh I see what you did there...
:yes:

Gina
08-07-14, 01:42 AM
I came across this book some time ago when my wife saw it on some TV show. Best review I've seen on Amazon:

I can redefine a potato as a coffee cup and tell you coffee won't fit into it, so clearly, coffee cups do not exist. Or potatoes. You'd then call me a raving lunatic and a potato denier.

:lol:

MADD As A Hatte
08-07-14, 09:52 AM
Poor dear man, R. Saul. Despite HarperCollins catchy book title, and a journalist-eye-catching press release, the book did NOT feature on the New York Times Best Seller List.

Rats curses.

More than one respected industry figure gives Saul a gentlemanly sledging:

Russ Barkley thinks he's a twit:
"The book is a travesty of ignorance about and propaganda against ADHD ..."
http://www.newsweek.com/2014/02/28/richard-saul-says-adhd-does-not-exist-not-everyone-agrees-245584.html

Dr Peter Jensen ... the title invites defensiveness...
http://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/parenting/2014/02/18/educating-doctors-about-a-d-h-d-without-resorting-to-ritalin-wars/?module=Search&mabReward=relbias%3Ar

So ... Does Saul's unsuccessful attempt at fame and fortune deserve any more of our collectively valuable airtime?

It's today the 7th of August. Six months after publication the book hasn't raised a blip.

Let's let Saul's diatribe quietly slip into obscurity, shall we?
.

Kunga Dorji
08-07-14, 10:53 PM
Correct. But the diagnosis you're seeking, will generally be the diagnosis that you get.


Only if you have a second rate doctor.


For example, if you have difficulties with concentration, memory and motivation and you request to be evaluated for ADHD, then you'll get a diagnosis for ADHD, because the questionnaire is based on the symptoms you have, not the actual cause of the symptoms.

If you have difficulties with concentration, memory and motivation and you request to be evaluated for Depression, then you'll end up with a diagnosis for depression, because again, the questionaire is based around the symptoms you have, instead of getting to the core cause of the symptoms.



It is well understood within psychiatry that attention difficulties may have multifactorial causation.

It is also well understood by those who diagnose, treat and live with ADHD
that the condition can be very depressing.

I very rarely get a confirmation letter back from a psychiatrist speaking of ADHD alone- virtually every one I see back from the specialists I deal with actually goes into more detail about the co-morbidity than the ADHD.

However- in diagnostic terms the distinction is simple. The diagnosis should be able to be made by a history of attention problems that have always been present to some degree- even if they are currently worse in the context of depression secondary to the social and psychic wounds caused by the unrecognised ADHD.

Less commonly one will see a latent ADHD unmasked in the course of treatment for depression or during the course of depth psychotherapy.

The mindless use of standard questionnaires in much more common at lower levels in Medical practice.

For instance- in Australia one can have one's family doctor draw up a "Mental Health Care Plan" - which entitles one to 10 visits to a psychologist with a significant monetary rebate from Medicare.

That is all well and good, but the Plan requires a measure of one's current level of psychological distress.

The preferred measure is the "Hamilton Anxiety and Depression Scale".

Again that is all very well- and maybe it does give a measure of current distress- but it also biases the unwary towards the diagnoses of anxiety and depression.

We see the same problem in the ACE (Adverse Childhood Events) study- which correlates adverse health outcomes with childhood trauma.

The hard fact is that childhood trauma can produce a picture that is clinically identical to ADHD (right down to the response to stimulants), and additionally that virtually all ADHD children are traumatised repeatedly at school.

However the trauma specialists tend not to think in the ADHD model- so they tend to mislabel the ADHD that is hidden in the statistics of the ACE study.

As for Richard Saul--- he simply does not understand the basic tents of how DSM is constructed- and that shows in the silly title of his book.

mctavish23
01-13-16, 01:29 PM
For openers, Neurologist Richard Saul is obviously an egocentric, attention-seeking,

passive-aggressive, narcissist. The reason being that ADHD is THE most widely

researched, developmental disability / childhood disorder on earth; dating back to Sir

Alexander Crichton's initial research study in 1798 (do the math). In addition, ADHD is

recognized the world over as a valid (and devastating) disorder. The fact that it's

"invisible," only serves to make it more so. The reality here is that this individual is com-

-pletely out of step with the world scientific community; not because he possesses some

"special" knowledge or break through data, but because he wants the attention derived

from "going against the grain." The problem is that his opinion, whether it be data driven

or not, simply CANNOT refute 218 years worth of evidence based, peer reviewed data;

supporting ADHD as "real."

In closing, just remember that approximately 524 years ago, virtually everyone on this

planet were completely convinced that the Earth was "flat;" and they were FOS 2. :eek:


(My Point: Looking for the simplest, "black & white," knee jerk reaction, is rarely right. The

same thing applies here to Peter Jensen, and his bff's at the "Church" of Scientology; who'd

much rather charge you (and Tom Cruise) $2K a week to "pull" aliens out of your body).


U R Welcome :cool:

Bethylphenidate
01-13-16, 01:40 PM
I actually read this book. I had never heard of it before, and I borrowed it from the library over the summer, on a whim.

Why?

Because I thought it would be a good idea to expose myself to a completely different viewpoint than my own, even though I didn't anticipate it would change my mind. (It didn't.) Believe me, I braced myself before reading it because I expected to get... umm, annoyed. :p

I can't really remember all the details about the book, but what I recall is that he described different conditions that mimic ADHD, by chapter. For instance, there is an entire chapter about visual impairment, with case studies for examples.

The thing is, I can't help but wonder if the book would be (or is) mainly read by people who already agree with the title, and perhaps are seeking a "professional" to validate their "beliefs" about this disorder.

Personally, the title caught my eye out of curiosity. I don't know that a book titled "ADHD Does Not Exist" would catch the eye of someone wondering "Why is my son having trouble in school?" instead of, say, "Driven to Distraction." (What I mean is, that title gives a little more indication that it's about a specific problem to which one could relate.)

He did dedicate a chapter to "neurological ADHD," which is what I believe he called "true ADHD." (Please don't quote my fuzzy memory about those quoted terms; I don't have the book to check.) In my opinion, that negates the entire point of the book:

ADHD does exist.

I think someone in this thread already mentioned that he probably used the title to sell more books.

I would agree on that one!

Would I recommend the book to anyone? Sure, if you're bored and you want to gain a different perspective. It made think.

But if you are seeking information about ADHD, while there is some in that book, I would recommend something else.

mctavish23
01-13-16, 02:17 PM
Beth,

Excellent points. Well said (and waaay nicer than mine) :p

Is nice to cu back.

Later,

Robert :cool:

Neuro-Smoggled
01-24-16, 12:29 PM
Looks to be using the following promotional / marketing trick to further his business -

"Controversial ideas have a huge ripple effect because people take an interest clicking, reading, commenting, and often sharing whether or not they agree. That's because it tends to hit people's emotional triggers, like surprise and anger."

I wouldn't use it.
Though it's a useful indicator of a dishonest or unscrupulous character, because they don't care about the damage they cause others when they use such tactics.