View Full Version : Low carb, high fat diet


avjgirsijdhtjhs
01-13-14, 02:38 PM
I originally posted this as a post in another thread, but then decided to also make a new thread with it.

Disclaimer: Some of these "facts", I say may not be facts at all (I'm claiming right now to NOT be an expert), and could be debated\corrected\showntobeincorrect, by someone that's really educated in this stuff, like a scientist, nutritionist, etc that really knows their **** on this stuff, but I'll just state everything like it is 100% perfect fact, and you can look into it if you want.

Getting fat can be looked at as a hormonal problem:

Insulin combined with macronutrients (carbs, protein, fat) is what makes you store fat.

What happens to a type ONE diabetic (type ONE diabetics have pancreases that do not make insulin) that eats tons and tons of food, but takes no insulin? They start wasting away, and die looking like an anorexic - fat stores nearly depleted, and very little skeletal muscle. They won't get fat no matter how much you feed them. --------------------- (A similar example is people with acromegaly (gigantism). People with a normal growth hormone signaling won't develop gigantism, no matter how much you feed them.)

Carbohydrates cause the body to release insulin (exceptions that I know of - sugar alcohols, look up both soluble and insoluble fiber).

Protein causes a release of insulin, but not to the degree of carbs (supposedly they either (gram for gram???? - not sure) don't cause, or don't cause to nearly the same degree the pancreas's second wave of insulin secretion.

Fat causes NO release of insulin.

One thing to keep in mind though that insulin is also one of the satiating hormones (well as long as it doesn't overpower the glucose in your blood combined with the body's regulatory glucose increasing effects, and cause your blood sugar to drop too low, then you'll be ravenous and in feeling INSANELY RIDICULOUSLY bad (and not just in a hungry way!) if it gets really low, but not so low that you pass out, or pass out and die)... ....Also supposedly protein is the most satiating macronutrient, and fat is the least, though this is debatable, and that is definitely a blanket statement (different strokes for different folks\metabolisms\situations), and plus are we talking on a per calorie basis, or gram for gram?...

Maybe now you can see why it's not as simple as first law of thermodynamics calories in vs calories out. Different macronutrients have different metabolic effects (go read pages 10.5 to 11.5 in the paperback version of the book "Fat Fast" - I'll look in copywrite stuff and see if I can photograph and post this, probably would need permission, or maybe I'll quote it in a bit, maybe). If you're dependent on carbs for energy in the few (or less than a few) hours after a carb heavy meal and get tired and hungry when it wears off this is not a good thing. You may get energy from the carbs, but if you get a mild blood sugar crash (or for those that don't check their blood sugar - if you notice an energy crash\letdown), then keep in mind that the insulin response from high carbs and\or protein is to STORE CALORIES. People THAT GET SUFFICIENT RESTORATIVE SLEEP (lack of sleep raises ghrelin and lowers leptin, two appetite regulating hormones (ghrelin increases hunger, and leptin lowers hunger, though these hormones are far from that simple - definitely leptin isn't!)), often find that a ketogenic low carb diet (ketogenic low carb diets are also dependent on you moderating protein, otherwise the excess protein slowly gets converted to glucose, and ketone production goes down (get a blood ketone meter)) KILLS their hunger, sometimes within a couple days, or it may take longer for sufficient keto-adaptation (and hunger lowering) to kick in. Okay, so (very) low (and keep in mind that there's glycogen in the meat you're eating) carb, and moderating protein is called a Low Carb High Fat Diet (LCHF). Useful info might be found from guys like Stephen Phinney and Jeff Volek, Gary Taubes, Peter Attia, Ron Rosedale, Jack Kruse.

So basically a LCHF (ketogenic) diet consists of the vast majority of calories from fat, a much lower percent from protein, and almost none from carbs. A meal might look like a smallish-mediumish chunk of meat or egg or cheese, and some NON-STARCHY vegetable(s) with liberal amounts of coconut oil, butter\ghee, olive oil, or the animal's fat (cows (as in meat, cheese, butter\ghee) don't make much omega-six regarless of what you feed them - pigs make a good bit more six than cows, and fowl fat is not low in omega-six either). Avoid vegetable oils (besides olive oil, which is about nine to ten percent omega-six (although for most beginners to the diet, it would probably be a good idea to avoid olive oil and pig for the first at least month or more, and make coconut oil (about ninety two percent saturated fat, six perfent monounsaturated, and two percent omega-six) the main fat source), since they are often extremely high in omega-six fat (nutritiondata.com), and since chronic low-grade (or more than low grade) inflammation is the basic cause behind LOTS of neolithic diseases, diseases we didn't get back when we ate what we are supposed to eat (omega-sixes are proinflammatory, and omega-threes are anti-inflammatory (carbs are very inflammatory too!), and it's probably best to keep the omega-six to omega-three ratio no higher than four parts omega-six to every one part omega-three and no lower than one part omega-six for every one part omega-three (except for beginners, who will often be better served by skewing the omega-six to three ratio more in favor of omega-three for a while, as well as keeping total omega-six intake low)). And although this may not sound like much, (ASSUMING YOU'RE WELL RESTED) there's a good chance that your hunger problems will be greatly reduced when you're no longer dependent on the (relatively) short wave of post meal carb energy, and are instead burning lots of ketones.

And as far as disease progression, prevention, and treatment goes:

People didn't get diabetes back when they didn't farm, and the fruit died in the fall and they were forced to eat a low carb diet all winter (which reversed their insulin resistance).

Polyunsaturated fats (omega-six (especially six!) and omega-three) should not make up the bulk of your fat intake, as they are very prone to oxidation. Monounsaturated fats, and even more especially saturated (http://www.artandscienceoflowcarb.com/the-sad-saga-of-saturated-fat/) fat should make up the bulk of your fat intake. Also know that the medium chain fats that make up almost two thirds of the content of coconut oil are treated VERY differently from the long chain fats that pretty much all other fats are (i think palm oil is around fifty percent medium chain, and butter around twelve to fifteen percent medium chain, and ghee about a quarter medium chain, maybe). Both the way they are treated metabolically, and their sub-nine-calories-per-gram caloric content make them great for use as your main fat source if you're trying to lose or not gain weight.

Also, (and especially if anybody's interested) I might go dig up some juicy quotes, papers, article on cholesterol (and it's relation to both dietary intake and insulin), saturated fat, medium chain fats, heart disease, inuit and their lack of scurvy and more if anyone wants, just not right now since I need a break.

Fuzzy12
01-14-14, 10:02 AM
Thanks Avj, for writing all of that down. I read it though I'm not sure I understand all of it (I spent ages looking for my wallet in my handbag with my right hand while holding said wallet in my left hand so that's my level of brain performance at the moment :rolleyes:).

I'm not sure about the high fat part (based on no science but just good old prejudice: fat = bad) but I do think that I consume way too much of carbs and probably too little of protein. Anyway, I'll come back to this when I can think a bit better again. Just wanted to say thanks for making the effort of writing it down. Interesting stuff!!

avjgirsijdhtjhs
01-14-14, 11:46 PM
Thanks Avj, for writing all of that down. I read it though I'm not sure I understand all of it (I spent ages looking for my wallet in my handbag with my right hand while holding said wallet in my left hand so that's my level of brain performance at the moment :rolleyes:).

I'm not sure about the high fat part (based on no science but just good old prejudice: fat = bad) but I do think that I consume way too much of carbs and probably too little of protein. Anyway, I'll come back to this when I can think a bit better again. Just wanted to say thanks for making the effort of writing it down. Interesting stuff!!

Look up "Ancel Keys" and the "Seven Countries Study" (https://www.google.com/#q=%22Ancel+Keys%22+%22Seven+Countries+Study%22).

Dreamer's Wife
01-17-14, 01:26 PM
Ok, as a nutritionist I have to say a few things. First of all, perhaps people didn't have diabetes back when we primarily farmed as a species. However, there is really very little way for us to know whether or not this is true. Type 1 diabetes is genetic, so chances are people have suffered from it throughout time.

Hearing you say that the primary fat intake should come from saturated fat is painful lol. There is a lot of evidence that saturated fat is very bad for your heart, and unsaturated fats tend to come from a larger variety of foods. Humans are meant to survive on variety, just eating animal products is a sure way to suffer from a nutrition deficiency.

And you talk about "diseases we didn't get back when we ate what we were supposed to eat". Well, our early ancestors were lucky to get food at all most of the time. They ate whatever they could get, and often times died young from malnutrition, starvation, scurvy, teeth problems, and lots of other things that are certainly attributed to diet.

And as for why the Inuit don't get scurvy, they don't cook much of their meat. If you eat certain meats raw, they have lots of vitamin c. However, in today's world it would be an awful idea to eat raw supermarket meat. The Inuit have little problem keeping their meat cold, in the developed world meats get covered in bacteria very quickly during all of the different steps it takes to reach the consumer.

As for the primarily fish and other meat diet of the Inuit, they actually have larger livers to process and dispose of the copious amounts of protein they ingest. Their bodies have developed differently (they also have a higher mercury tolerance) to accommodate their vastly different diet. They have a much higher body fat percentage, on average, and are far more active than the average person. This means that the high levels of saturated fat they ingest gets burned off before it can clog their arteries.

Basically what I am trying to say is, an average person living in a western nation would certainly die at a much younger age if they had an Inuit diet. Either from malnutrition, mercury poisoning, a heart attack or stroke, e coli, or salmonella. Now, we could all do better to lower our carb intake by eating less added sugar, bread, pasta, etc. But most certainly do not cut out vegetables and fruits.

avjgirsijdhtjhs
01-17-14, 03:10 PM
Cool beans. I don't have any delusions about thinking I know everything about everything, and the original post was a summary of to the best of my memory stuff I'd read about low carb eating. Oh, and yeah I should have specified that I was talking about type two diabetes rather than type one\autoimmune.

Hearing you say that the primary fat intake should come from saturated fat is painful lol. There is a lot of evidence that saturated fat is very bad for your heart.

How is it painful? Do you feel like you didn't get your money's worth from your schooling or something?

INGESTED saturated fat? Can you site some evidence that dietary saturated fat is bad for the heart? Would Ancel Keys' cherry picking have anything to do with the evidence by any chance?

And since my original post was talking about eating lots of saturated fat on a low carb diet: What about on a low carb diet? Can you site some evidence that dietary saturated fat is bad for the heart on a low carb diet?

What do you have to say for number five on this list (http://authoritynutrition.com/how-to-win-an-argument-with-a-nutritionist/)?

Can you bring here (or even better take to them! I would love to see you do this! Will you? Should I go post a thread on Jack Kruse's forum titled "I don't know everything, but neither does she", and link it to this thread? :)) a quote that Jack Kruse, Stephen Phinney and\or Jeff Volek, Peter Attia, or Gary Taubes has made about how eating large amount of saturated fat is safe, or the lack of evidence that dietary saturated fat causes heart disease, or something else positive about dietary saturated fat (and by safe, I mean for the majority or vast majority of people, since there will be people with conditions that except them from this?

avjgirsijdhtjhs
01-17-14, 03:37 PM
Basically what I am trying to say is, an average person living in a western nation would certainly die at a much younger age if they had an Inuit diet. Either from malnutrition, mercury poisoning, a heart attack or stroke, e coli, or salmonella.

You know this? Okay, HOW do you know this?

Any comments on Vilhjalmur Stefansson (http://www.mendosa.com/stefansson1.htm) about anything to do with diet and\or any of the following - health, disease, longevity, or anything else you'd like to comment on with regard to him or anything else that's in the link?

avjgirsijdhtjhs
01-17-14, 03:53 PM
Oh, and Fuzzy12:

Since you're into Vin Diesel so much, go YouTube up "Peter Attia" and see what you think. ;)

Canadian Mess
01-17-14, 04:27 PM
I'd have to take out all my research studies that I've learned about throughout 4 years of studying nutrition to give you the proof you seek.

I'll give you the short story without the research studies (I can't be bothered right now).

A diet high in fat and low in carbohydrates is bad for you. Really bad. Basically, because when you break down the fat, it needs somehow to go through your blood stream. The fat is insoluble in water which is a big part of your blood. So, the way it can be transported is by proteins- they take the chylomicrons which are basically fat globules and repackage them and carry them by having fat balls covered in little soluble protein coatings going through your blood going to the places they need to go.

These "fat balls covered in little protein coatings" have varying densities based on what kind of fat is in the protein ball. VLDL and LDL (very low density lipoproteins and low density proteins) that are more from saturated fats are bad because when they strip off the coating, it hurts your blood vessel walls and it can accumulate.

This is called atheroscherosis which later on leads to things like cardiovascular disease because the scratches in the blood vessels walls get attacked by well-meaning body stuff, makes a plaque, gets calcified and blocks your circulation, can kill you.

Very high fat diets = a lot of bad VLDL and LDL especially saturated fat. Unsaturated fats are smaller (not saturated) and raise the amount of HDL which re-circulate the coating and extra stuff back to the liver= good.

Low carbohydrate= low sugar= low glucose your body doesn't like that. Your body runs on glucose, you breathe, sleep, eat, function on glucose. The body does not oxidize fat very well, it's not a good fuel source at all.

In other words, stick to your veggies, fruit, bread and meat and you are fine. No need for high fat, low carb diet.

As for type 1 diabetes, they need a source of insulin because they do not produce enough of their own, meaning that the body does not go through the proper metabolism process, it's supposed to be in a counter-balance relationship with glucagon and such, so that when you eat, you use the glucose and other stuff because of insulin and the body should put the rest into adipose tissue. No insulin means you can't.

People who don't have diabetes dont' need to worry, their body does this without worry. Unless they are hypoglycemic like me (gotta eat a lot my bodys' hormones are alittle too overwealming for my body).

If you want more information, feel free to ask questions. Please be careful what assumptions you have, because they can be well-meaning but ill-informed and can cause others to follow incorrect information. That's why dietitians and nutritionists train for 4-5 years, because we have the science background (biology, microbiology, chemistry, biochemistry, anatomy, biology etc) to understand the recommendations that others lack.

Canadian Mess
01-17-14, 04:44 PM
Cool beans. I don't have any delusions about thinking I know everything about everything, and the original post was a summary of to the best of my memory stuff I'd read about low carb eating. Oh, and yeah I should have specified that I was talking about type two diabetes rather than type one\autoimmune.



How is it painful? Do you feel like you didn't get your money's worth from your schooling or something?

INGESTED saturated fat? Can you site some evidence that dietary saturated fat is bad for the heart? Would Ancel Keys' cherry picking have anything to do with the evidence by any chance?

And since my original post was talking about eating lots of saturated fat on a low carb diet: What about on a low carb diet? Can you site some evidence that dietary saturated fat is bad for the heart on a low carb diet?

What do you have to say for number five on this list (http://authoritynutrition.com/how-to-win-an-argument-with-a-nutritionist/)?

Can you bring here (or even better take to them! I would love to see you do this! Will you? Should I go post a thread on Jack Kruse's forum titled "I don't know everything, but neither does she", and link it to this thread? :)) a quote that Jack Kruse, Stephen Phinney and\or Jeff Volek, Peter Attia, or Gary Taubes has made about how eating large amount of saturated fat is safe, or the lack of evidence that dietary saturated fat causes heart disease, or something else positive about dietary saturated fat (and by safe, I mean for the majority or vast majority of people, since there will be people with conditions that except them from this?

My answer to this: I have TONS of research showing that saturated fat is bad for you. You get saturated fat from your diet. A major source of saturated fat is meat and dairy.

Meaning eat meat and dairy in moderation. Eat vegetables and fruit
If you want proof that eating dairy, meat in less and eating vegetables and fruits more and unsaturated fat works see the "Mediterranean Diet" - research studies I mean.

I don't know who you are quoting, but they are wrong. Saturated fat is bad. It's okay in moderation, because you get some from eating meat, but that doesn't mean it's good for you. It really doesn't mean you can just eat meat and be fine.

Key words: Moderation and balance
See Canada's Food Guide, it's a great start backed by science. Or the Mediterranean Diet

Dreamer's Wife
01-17-14, 04:46 PM
Ok, so to understand why dietary saturated fat is bad, you have to understand the different cholesterol types and what they mean for your body. LDL cholesterol tends to cause a plaque on the walls of your arteries, which makes blood flow much more difficult. Eventually, the passages can close enough to cause a heart attack.

HDL cholesterol carries some of the LDL away from the heart, to the liver where it can then be passed out of the body.

Here is a more in depth explanation from the American Heart Association. http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/Conditions/Cholesterol/AboutCholesterol/Good-vs-Bad-Cholesterol_UCM_305561_Article.jsp

So... a diet high in saturated fats leads to a higher LDL cholesterol count. A very active person who burns ALL of the calories they take in would not have as much of a problem with this. However, most people do not burn all of their calories, and their body stores these extra calories as fat. The overweight body also produces a form of fat called triglycerides. It is not completely known what the role of triglycerides is, however it has been noted that people who have heart conditions, and high LDL levels also have high triglyceride levels.

Here is a basic explanation about why saturated fats are bad for you, from the National Health Service UK website.
http://www.nhs.uk/chq/pages/1124.aspx?categoryid=51&subcategoryid=167

Here is an excellent book that goes very in depth on the explanations of fats and exactly, metabolically, how they function inside the body.
http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-60327-431-9_1

So basically, what I am trying to say is that this is a very complex subject. Don't use Google, the search results that you get are hardly scientifically based. If you are truly interested in how different types of fats and cholesterol function inside the body, you really should read a scientific, nutritionist book about it.

And also, as far as dying from e coli, salmonella, etc. Have you ever had food poisoning? It really does feel like you will die. And if you get food poisoning more than once in a short period of time, you likely will die without some serious medical treatment. Unless you are lucky enough to have your own animals to butcher, eating raw meat that was processed at subpar temperatures with lots of other different meats is a very bad idea.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24429881
Basically, this is saying that when they take samples from places that handle raw meat (butchers, slaughter houses, grocery stores) about 1/4 of them test positive for an enterotoxin (something that will cause illness in a consumer). Cooking kills these bacterias, which is why it is so important to cook your meats to the proper temperature.

ginniebean
01-17-14, 06:41 PM
Ok, as a nutritionist I have to say a few things. First of all, perhaps people didn't have diabetes back when we primarily farmed as a species. However, there is really very little way for us to know whether or not this is true. Type 1 diabetes is genetic, so chances are people have suffered from it throughout time.

Type 2 Diabetes is genetic as well. You can't get it if you don't have the gene. Lifestyle can delay onset or as onset is often late it can be delayed until the end of one's life.




Hearing you say that the primary fat intake should come from saturated fat is painful lol. There is a lot of evidence that saturated fat is very bad for your heart, and unsaturated fats tend to come from a larger variety of foods. Humans are meant to survive on variety, just eating animal products is a sure way to suffer from a nutrition deficiency.

And you talk about "diseases we didn't get back when we ate what we were supposed to eat". Well, our early ancestors were lucky to get food at all most of the time. They ate whatever they could get, and often times died young from malnutrition, starvation, scurvy, teeth problems, and lots of other things that are certainly attributed to diet.

And as for why the Inuit don't get scurvy, they don't cook much of their meat. If you eat certain meats raw, they have lots of vitamin c. However, in today's world it would be an awful idea to eat raw supermarket meat. The Inuit have little problem keeping their meat cold, in the developed world meats get covered in bacteria very quickly during all of the different steps it takes to reach the consumer.

As for the primarily fish and other meat diet of the Inuit, they actually have larger livers to process and dispose of the copious amounts of protein they ingest. Their bodies have developed differently (they also have a higher mercury tolerance) to accommodate their vastly different diet. They have a much higher body fat percentage, on average, and are far more active than the average person. This means that the high levels of saturated fat they ingest gets burned off before it can clog their arteries.

Basically what I am trying to say is, an average person living in a western nation would certainly die at a much younger age if they had an Inuit diet. Either from malnutrition, mercury poisoning, a heart attack or stroke, e coli, or salmonella. Now, we could all do better to lower our carb intake by eating less added sugar, bread, pasta, etc. But most certainly do not cut out vegetables and fruits.


There are a large proportion of diabetics eating a hig protein, low carb, low fat diet. Some 40+ years. By doing so they have staved off complications have healthy hearts and kidneys, no loss of eyesight etc..

The recommended diet doesn't fare so well and people have far too much BG when following the most common recommended diet.

The science behind the standard recommendations is iffy and inconclusive. For diabetics, dangerous.

Canadian Mess
01-17-14, 07:08 PM
Type 2 Diabetes is genetic as well. You can't get it if you don't have the gene. Lifestyle can delay onset or as onset is often late it can be delayed until the end of one's life.


There are a large proportion of diabetics eating a hig protein, low carb, low fat diet. Some 40+ years. By doing so they have staved off complications have healthy hearts and kidneys, no loss of eyesight etc..

The recommended diet doesn't fare so well and people have far too much BG when following the most common recommended diet.

The science behind the standard recommendations is iffy and inconclusive. For diabetics, dangerous.

Some of what you say is true, some isn't.

Essentially under the new classification system, there are about 5 different kinds of diabetes based on what genes are involved. Some types are highly genetic, but the ones that are most diagnosed usually are not in type 2 diabetes.

What science does know is that there are risk factors that raise the chance of you getting type 2 diabetes- these include a family history, obesity, high blood pressure, high cholesterol, etc. Not all are genetic

Secondly, the current recommendations are very good for diabetics, they have been able to reduce the amount of amputations and complications as a result.

For type 2 diabetes, the treatment is very individualistic- some need insulin, some need oral medications and others are okay with just exercise and a healthy diet.

The best diet that is currently recommended in Canada is a high protein, high carb, lower fat diet that does not look much different from the recommended diet for the average Canadian, only with more protein involved.

The key to whatever diet they have is planning and balance- to balance the carbs out throughout their meals so that their insulin levels don't spike and drop so much.

The research is still not there, but what we do know is better than nothing and there is still much to learn. But the current recommendations work, and are getting better

Blackstar
01-18-14, 01:19 AM
Eating a high protein diet (that's low in fats or carbs) is bad over the long term, as high protein diets stress the kidneys getting rid of excess protein.

It has also been linked with bone loss. The body neutralizes the acids from protein breakdown with calcium - from the bones.

Generally speaking, the best diet for long life and good health is a diet that's



high in starch, legumes, vegetables and fruit
has adequate protein, according to how active their lifestyle is
adequate essential fats in a healthy ratio
and low in processed foods, cholesterol and land animal fats.
Added simple sugars should be kept low, unless they are used as an exercise fuel.
Added sodium should also be kept low, unless you do endurance exercise and the body needs extra.


The Okinawans are some of the oldest living people in the world on average, and they ate a similar diet.

The DASH diet is similar, and the Mediterranean is too, only they add more olive oil to their diet.

I don't suggest ADD people add much olive / macadamia / avocado oil, as research shows people that are impulsive tend to have higher than average levels of oleic acid - the main fatty acid in these oils.

They may make symptoms of ADD worse.

Blackstar
01-18-14, 01:56 AM
changed mind

buh.ran.done
01-20-14, 12:40 PM
Eating a high protein diet (that's low in fats or carbs) is bad over the long term, as high protein diets stress the kidneys getting rid of excess protein.



High protein is not bad for your kidneys unless you already have kidney issues.

Source 1: http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/2/1/25

Source 2: http://www.jissn.com/content/10/1/26

Souce 3: http://www.ajkd.org/article/S0272-6386(04)01253-3/abstract

Kidney function is only a worry if you already have proteinuria.

bymysoul2squeez
01-20-14, 01:37 PM
I originally posted this as a post in another thread, but then decided to also make a new thread with it.

Disclaimer: Some of these "facts", I say may not be facts at all (I'm claiming right now to NOT be an expert), and could be debated\corrected\showntobeincorrect, by someone that's really educated in this stuff, like a scientist, nutritionist, etc that really knows their **** on this stuff, but I'll just state everything like it is 100% perfect fact, and you can look into it if you want.

Getting fat can be looked at as a hormonal problem:

Insulin combined with macronutrients (carbs, protein, fat) is what makes you store fat.

What happens to a type ONE diabetic (type ONE diabetics have pancreases that do not make insulin) that eats tons and tons of food, but takes no insulin? They start wasting away, and die looking like an anorexic - fat stores nearly depleted, and very little skeletal muscle. They won't get fat no matter how much you feed them. --------------------- (A similar example is people with acromegaly (gigantism). People with a normal growth hormone signaling won't develop gigantism, no matter how much you feed them.)

Carbohydrates cause the body to release insulin (exceptions that I know of - sugar alcohols, look up both soluble and insoluble fiber).

Protein causes a release of insulin, but not to the degree of carbs (supposedly they either (gram for gram???? - not sure) don't cause, or don't cause to nearly the same degree the pancreas's second wave of insulin secretion.

Fat causes NO release of insulin.

One thing to keep in mind though that insulin is also one of the satiating hormones (well as long as it doesn't overpower the glucose in your blood combined with the body's regulatory glucose increasing effects, and cause your blood sugar to drop too low, then you'll be ravenous and in feeling INSANELY RIDICULOUSLY bad (and not just in a hungry way!) if it gets really low, but not so low that you pass out, or pass out and die)... ....Also supposedly protein is the most satiating macronutrient, and fat is the least, though this is debatable, and that is definitely a blanket statement (different strokes for different folks\metabolisms\situations), and plus are we talking on a per calorie basis, or gram for gram?...

Maybe now you can see why it's not as simple as first law of thermodynamics calories in vs calories out. Different macronutrients have different metabolic effects (go read pages 10.5 to 11.5 in the paperback version of the book "Fat Fast" - I'll look in copywrite stuff and see if I can photograph and post this, probably would need permission, or maybe I'll quote it in a bit, maybe). If you're dependent on carbs for energy in the few (or less than a few) hours after a carb heavy meal and get tired and hungry when it wears off this is not a good thing. You may get energy from the carbs, but if you get a mild blood sugar crash (or for those that don't check their blood sugar - if you notice an energy crash\letdown), then keep in mind that the insulin response from high carbs and\or protein is to STORE CALORIES. People THAT GET SUFFICIENT RESTORATIVE SLEEP (lack of sleep raises ghrelin and lowers leptin, two appetite regulating hormones (ghrelin increases hunger, and leptin lowers hunger, though these hormones are far from that simple - definitely leptin isn't!)), often find that a ketogenic low carb diet (ketogenic low carb diets are also dependent on you moderating protein, otherwise the excess protein slowly gets converted to glucose, and ketone production goes down (get a blood ketone meter)) KILLS their hunger, sometimes within a couple days, or it may take longer for sufficient keto-adaptation (and hunger lowering) to kick in. Okay, so (very) low (and keep in mind that there's glycogen in the meat you're eating) carb, and moderating protein is called a Low Carb High Fat Diet (LCHF). Useful info might be found from guys like Stephen Phinney and Jeff Volek, Gary Taubes, Peter Attia, Ron Rosedale, Jack Kruse.

So basically a LCHF (ketogenic) diet consists of the vast majority of calories from fat, a much lower percent from protein, and almost none from carbs. A meal might look like a smallish-mediumish chunk of meat or egg or cheese, and some NON-STARCHY vegetable(s) with liberal amounts of coconut oil, butter\ghee, olive oil, or the animal's fat (cows (as in meat, cheese, butter\ghee) don't make much omega-six regarless of what you feed them - pigs make a good bit more six than cows, and fowl fat is not low in omega-six either). Avoid vegetable oils (besides olive oil, which is about nine to ten percent omega-six (although for most beginners to the diet, it would probably be a good idea to avoid olive oil and pig for the first at least month or more, and make coconut oil (about ninety two percent saturated fat, six perfent monounsaturated, and two percent omega-six) the main fat source), since they are often extremely high in omega-six fat (nutritiondata.com), and since chronic low-grade (or more than low grade) inflammation is the basic cause behind LOTS of neolithic diseases, diseases we didn't get back when we ate what we are supposed to eat (omega-sixes are proinflammatory, and omega-threes are anti-inflammatory (carbs are very inflammatory too!), and it's probably best to keep the omega-six to omega-three ratio no higher than four parts omega-six to every one part omega-three and no lower than one part omega-six for every one part omega-three (except for beginners, who will often be better served by skewing the omega-six to three ratio more in favor of omega-three for a while, as well as keeping total omega-six intake low)). And although this may not sound like much, (ASSUMING YOU'RE WELL RESTED) there's a good chance that your hunger problems will be greatly reduced when you're no longer dependent on the (relatively) short wave of post meal carb energy, and are instead burning lots of ketones.

And as far as disease progression, prevention, and treatment goes:

People didn't get diabetes back when they didn't farm, and the fruit died in the fall and they were forced to eat a low carb diet all winter (which reversed their insulin resistance).

Polyunsaturated fats (omega-six (especially six!) and omega-three) should not make up the bulk of your fat intake, as they are very prone to oxidation. Monounsaturated fats, and even more especially saturated (http://www.artandscienceoflowcarb.com/the-sad-saga-of-saturated-fat/) fat should make up the bulk of your fat intake. Also know that the medium chain fats that make up almost two thirds of the content of coconut oil are treated VERY differently from the long chain fats that pretty much all other fats are (i think palm oil is around fifty percent medium chain, and butter around twelve to fifteen percent medium chain, and ghee about a quarter medium chain, maybe). Both the way they are treated metabolically, and their sub-nine-calories-per-gram caloric content make them great for use as your main fat source if you're trying to lose or not gain weight.

Also, (and especially if anybody's interested) I might go dig up some juicy quotes, papers, article on cholesterol (and it's relation to both dietary intake and insulin), saturated fat, medium chain fats, heart disease, inuit and their lack of scurvy and more if anyone wants, just not right now since I need a break.

Great book on the subject is "Why we get fat ad what do to about it"

Blackstar
01-21-14, 05:03 AM
High protein is not bad for your kidneys unless you already have kidney issues.

Source 1: http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/2/1/25

Source 2: http://www.jissn.com/content/10/1/26

Souce 3: http://www.ajkd.org/article/S0272-6386(04)01253-3/abstract

Kidney function is only a worry if you already have proteinuria.



The claim "High protein is not bad for your kidneys unless you already have kidney issues" is not supported by long term evidence, as more studies are recommended:

"Without question, long-term studies are needed to clarify the scant evidence currently available regarding this relationship." (from source 1 conclusion)

The links between increased protein diets and kidney damage have been demonstrated in animals but not humans at this stage. (from source 1)


However, there is evidence that high protein diets contribute to high excretion of calcium and negative calcium balance - leading to bone resorption (breakdown).

High-protein Weight-loss Diets: Are They Safe and Do They Work? A Review of the Experimental and Epidemiologic Data
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1301/00296640260184264/abstract

Excess Dietary Protein Can Adversely Affect Bone
http://nutrition.highwire.org/content/128/6/1051.full

Changes in Bone Turnover in Young Women Consuming Different Levels of Dietary Protein
http://press.endocrine.org/doi/abs/10.1210/jcem.84.3.5552


It is also true that this calcium loss and bone fractures can be countered by a high calcium intake (>800 mg Ca / day), reducing hip fractures that happen more often on <800 mg Ca/day.


Effect of Dietary Protein on Bone Loss in Elderly Men and Women: The Framingham Osteoporosis Study
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1359/jbmr.2000.15.12.2504/full


OK. So a high protein, high calcium diet may be plausible in the short or medium term. But what about the long term?


The diet that's linked with the longest lifespans on earth is the Okinawan diet pre 1960.

Their carb : protein : fat ratio has been documented to be ~85:9:6 - A high carb, adequate protein, low fat diet.

Can you give examples of centenarians that lived on a high protein diet?

Laserbeak
01-25-14, 06:04 AM
The low-carb diet is the only l diet that worked for me when I was strictly on it. I lost like 50 lbs. in just a few months.

LynneC
01-26-14, 07:56 PM
The diet that's linked with the longest lifespans on earth is the Okinawan diet pre 1960.
This is because of calorie restriction, as opposed to macronutrient composition. Google it...
Okinawans had a typical BMI of 20 or so... that's pretty damn skinny...