View Full Version : Is there a way out?


Fuzzy12
02-10-14, 11:31 AM
I don't see it.

It's almost 5 months now that I quit anti depressants but the anti depressants didn't seem to help much so I'm reluctant to start them again. I thought once I start getting treatment for ADHD, I'd feel better. Relieved. Then I thought once I start being productive it would cheer me up. I am a lot more productive (well in general, not today. Today I was too busy hurting, which seems to have become a full time job). Then I thought I'd feel better once my parents leave. I am glad about all of these things but as usual my emotions aren't following reality. I think my depression is like cholesterol. My body just produces it.

I'm not sure what to do now. Both my GP and my psychiatrist (whoever that is..I've got no clue at the moment) are reluctant to put me on anti depressants till I've been on the stimulants for a few months (which makes sense). Exercise might help but I'm too depressed to exercise. I'm not even able to play the piano anymore.

Maybe I'm just too broken to live. I'm losing hope. Worse, I'm losing interest. There is just nothing I look forward to.

Abi
02-10-14, 11:34 AM
Have you tried non-SxRI's eg:

Remeron

Lamictal

Nortrptaline, Amitryptaline, etc?

Have you tried added a benzo like Klonopin or Ativan, or something like Abilify to your regimen?

Fuzzy12
02-10-14, 11:41 AM
Have you tried non-SxRI's eg:

Remeron

Lamictal

Nortrptaline, Amitryptaline, etc?

Have you tried added a benzo like Klonopin or Ativan, or something like Abilify to your regimen?

I've tried lamictal as a mood stabiliser but that just got rid of the highs (permanently, it seems) and made me depressed. I mean, I don't know what it did but I was quite depressed on lamotrigine.

I haven't tried the others. Remeron is known to cause weight gain, right? Can't do that. And aren't the others anti anxiety meds?

Also, I don't really have a lot of control over the meds I get prescribed. I mean, it's not like anyone would prescribe anything for me just because I ask.

Maybe I could ask for citalopram or escitalopram. Might be worth a shot based on this post. (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1608885&postcount=7) I vaguely remember a friend telling me that she used to take one of them (don't remember which) so at least it's prescribed in the UK for depression. I'm just worried they'll take me off stims.

daveddd
02-10-14, 11:45 AM
:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

all i can say is i know where you are coming from

Fuzzy12
02-10-14, 12:21 PM
:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

all i can say is i know where you are coming from

Thanks, I know, you do. :grouphug:

I just need to get out of this funk!!!!

Ok, smoke, then correct paper. I've wasted my meds today again but I can't think of anything else that might make me feel a bit better except for doing some work.

Lunacie
02-10-14, 12:53 PM
(((Fuzzy))) I lived with depression for many, many years.

Have you been checked for things like Vitamin D3 deficiency?

Fuzzy12
02-10-14, 12:57 PM
(((Fuzzy))) I lived with depression for many, many years.

Have you been checked for things like Vitamin D3 deficiency?

No and I doubt my GP would check for any deficiencies just because I ask him to. Sorry, I know, I'm being very negative, but it's really not easy getting things done here.

I take a multi-vitamin, which contains the RDA for vit D. I've also got another one, which is 4000ium but I'm a bit worried about overdosing on vits when I don't have a known deficiency. Though I could be deficient. I'm slightly darker skinned and there isn't a lot of sunshine these days.

agirlandherdogs
02-10-14, 01:01 PM
n lamotrigine.

I haven't tried the others. Remeron is known to cause weight gain, right? Can't do that. And aren't the others anti anxiety meds?



.

what's worse? depression that you can't shake or a little bit of a weight gain?

Fuzzy12
02-10-14, 01:05 PM
what's worse? depression that you can't shake or a little bit of a weight gain?

I know it sounds extremely stupid (and probably is) but I can't deal with weight gain. It triggers my eating disorder and depresses me. :rolleyes:

agirlandherdogs
02-10-14, 01:13 PM
ok, vaild ... sorry !

Lunacie
02-10-14, 01:22 PM
No and I doubt my GP would check for any deficiencies just because I ask him to. Sorry, I know, I'm being very negative, but it's really not easy getting things done here.

I take a multi-vitamin, which contains the RDA for vit D. I've also got another one, which is 4000ium but I'm a bit worried about overdosing on vits when I don't have a known deficiency. Though I could be deficient. I'm slightly darker skinned and there isn't a lot of sunshine these days.

I didn't know I was low on Vita D until I was 40 and began breaking bones.

I actually started taking the D to help with depression, but as I read more about it,

I learned that Vita D deficiency can lead to weak bones.

Not sure how much it actually helped the depression, but I haven't broken any bones in 3 years now.

(knocks wood)

Fuzzy12
02-10-14, 01:23 PM
I didn't know I was low on Vita D until I was 40 and began breaking bones.

I actually started taking the D to help with depression, but as I read more about it,

I learned that Vita D deficiency can lead to weak bones.

Not sure how much it actually helped the depression, but I haven't broken any bones in 3 years now.

(knocks wood)

How much do you take Lun?

Lunacie
02-10-14, 02:30 PM
How much do you take Lun?

I started low at 1,000 IU, but after a year I thought it wasn't doing much and I doubled it.

Then I doubled it again, and am now taking 4,000 IU every morning.

avjgirsijdhtjhs
02-10-14, 03:55 PM
I'm a bit worried about overdosing on vits when I don't have a known deficiency.

You ought to be more worried about underdosing on D when you don't have a known excess.

If we're talking about a white person that isn't especially naturally pale or unpale that gets a little or medium amount of sun in the summer in England, but doesn't supplement more than the ridiculously paltry four hundred IUs per day that's in most multivitamins, and also doesn't tan or anything either, well this time of the year, they're almost certainly going to be below thirty nanograms per milliliter, and a lot will be below twenty, and it won't be uncommon for people to be below ten. I wouldn't be surprised one bit if you were below ten, and I would be VERY surprised if you were above twenty five. I've read a lot about D in previous years, and some of that was people's numbers\experiences on forums, and that's what I'm using to base my guesses on where you might be. I think you ought to just start up a thousand IU per day for every twenty five pounds of bodyweight, like vitaminDcouncil.org recommends (actually, a loading dose would be even better, since you're almost certainly VERY low...). I can give you a link to a prick your finger and make blood spots test kit that you can order (no docs needed or anything, you order it, they send it, you make blood spots, you mail it back, they tell you your results) and mail back to the lab that I used back in May of twenty twelve if you want...

Considering that the thread is about depression and that some people say they experienced mood benefits from getting their "D" up, I'm not saying that I think D is going to make you happy, or even just relieve some of the depressed mood. I think you'll have to get your life in order for you to where your life makes you happy in order to be happy, but you ought to at least have a stable "base" from which to live your life. Like as in Maslow's Heirarchy of Needs, like as in you need good health for a good mind...

Watch the vid already. It might pique your interest and open up your eyes. No I don't think it will cure everything, but just watch the thing already. Have you read about D and cancer????? How about weight loss?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xF24xmJQK1k

dvdnvwls
02-10-14, 04:03 PM
It seems to me that maybe things are going very well.

Since starting ADHD medication, your level of hurt seems to have increased, without any specific bad events. That happened to me too. What was happening was I was recognizing my old hurts for what they were, instead of burying them. And since that time, you've made a pretty significant bunch of forum posts examining this hurt and trying to really do something about it. And one of the things that ADHD meds are truly known for is their ability to give you that little push you needed to accomplish something you kept trying before but weren't able to do.

To really break this hurt, to get free of it and to feel OK, will be huge. I think you're doing it. I think ADHD medication is making you less afraid to look, less likely to give up. After so many times, to finally crash through to the other side of whatever-it-is. It's not "enlightenment" in the religious sense, but some kind of similar process of "after all this, I finally get it".

Fuzzy12
02-10-14, 04:50 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEQnzs8wl6E

I normally don't allow myself to listen to Fade To Black because it makes me suicidal but I love that song and today on my drive home I thought I was depressed enough to listen to it.

It was ok. More than anything, I think, I felt just grateful that music so beautiful exists. Maybe the next step is to appreciate that I'm alive and functional enough to listen to beautiful music.

If nothing else, I think, I needed a reminder, that there is always a way out.

Abi
02-11-14, 02:12 AM
Anxiety and Depression are very closely related, so meds like Klonopin and Ativan can help boost your Antidepressant significantly

Abilify also has shown promise as a a "booster" for antidepressants.

liveandletdie
02-11-14, 02:42 AM
i gained 30-40 lbs on remeron...wouldn't exactly call that a little weight...and it wasn't effective and anti-psychotic probably could have done about the same thing...just shut things down...

Fuzzy12
02-11-14, 06:12 AM
i gained 30-40 lbs on remeron...wouldn't exactly call that a little weight...and it wasn't effective and anti-psychotic probably could have done about the same thing...just shut things down...

Thanks. That's what I've heard about remeron. One of my psychiatrists suggested treating my depression aggressively before considering an ADHD diagnosis and his suggestion was to increase my dose of venlafaxine to the maximum and add mirtazapine (remeron). My GP increased venlafaxine way beyond the recommended maximum and that really knocked me out. I could hardly keep my eyes open and when I was awake I felt suicidal so back then I didn't want to add mirtazapine to the mix. Uggh...

Abi
02-11-14, 06:34 AM
You know, don't take this the wrong, way, but you yourself have considered the possiblility of BPD.

I was very sceptical of that, I felt striongly that Bipolar 2 was your "main" condition.

But of late you seem to be fitting the BPD/HPD profile more and more.
Though I wonder if it's not an abreaction to Ritalin.

I've never really felt you were ADHD. (Remember, Bipolar also comes with cognitive and executive functioning deficits. In fact, recent research suggests that the ADHDers with the worst cognitive defects are the ones with comorbid bipolar. My executive functioning is worse than the majority of ADHDers here - 2nd percentile - and I almost certainly DON'T have ADHD)Anway, thehe Ritalin could be messing with your moods and behaviour. In general, Ritalin is a bad choice for bipolar people.

My suggestion would be

(1) Forget this ADHD thing, and seek dx for bipolar. You are well educated and to the best of my knowledge financially comfortable. Find a good pDoc and give him your detailed symptom and med history.

Try Sertraline (which I believe was your least troublesome AD) + Carbamezapine/Tegretol (least weight-gainy mood stabiliser) + Abilify (to boost both of the above).

Give it 3 to 6 months. If you see improvement, you are Bipolar. If not, you are Bordeline and Pharmacotherapy is not going to help. You'll need extensive pschotherapy. I know it sucks, I hate talk therapy and am glad I can get away without it, but meds just don't cut it for Cluster B PD's.

Apologies if I'm being presumptuous. You know I care about you <333

Fuzzy12
02-11-14, 06:46 AM
((ABI)) :grouphug:

I have been diagnosed with BP II but somehow I never felt that it really fit. I have bad mood swings (well, I did, before lamotritine :rolleyes:) but my hypomanic episodes rarely last even the minimum 4 days stipulated in the DSM. Also, I think my moods are rather reactive. I over react to things, extremely, but my mood swings aren't completely out of the blue. I do think that emotional regulation issues are more likely than BP.

The few episodes of more classical hypomania I've had were pretty much all AFTER I started taking anti depressants. And I think, my cognitive defects are too severe to be explained by BP.

I'm not sure. I guess, I'm somewhere on the mood disorder spectrum and I still think that my mother is bipolar.

I'm not sure why but somehow the thought that I might have BPD scares the hell out of me. It freaks me out every time I start wondering about it. I mean, if that's what I have, then there's no point in denying it but I just really don't want to have it. Maybe because I hated talk therapy too and uggh...I don't know. I don't see any reason why I should have BPD. I mean, I don't come from an abusive, neglectful family (unless over attachment is a form of abuse) and no one in my family shows any BPD symptoms.

By the way I'm not taking Ritalin anymore but dextroamphetamine.

Abi
02-11-14, 06:57 AM
Same thing. Stimulant.

I spent over 3 years believing my BP dx was bogus, and maybe another 2 believing that I did have BP, but that I had ADHD as well.

You say that your cognitive defects are too severe for BP.

Fact: Cognitive defects in BP are WORSE than in ADHD.

I've been where you are. For five years I insisted I had ADHD. But I don't.

Also, have you heard about mixed episodes or ultradian cycling?

Peri once told me, when I was really new here, that we "recognise our own kind".

I'd bet that you are:

Bipolar: 4:1

Bordeline: 99:401

ADHD: 1:4999

ps: u dont have to have ADHD to be in the in-crowd here. look at me :) :) :lol:
seriously, we love you regardless of diagnosis <3

Fuzzy12
02-11-14, 07:01 AM
Same thing. Stimulant.

I spent over 3 years believing my BP dx was bogus, and maybe another 2 believing that I did have BP, but that I had ADHD as well.

You say that your cognitive defects are too severe for BP.

Fact: Cognitive defects in BP are WORSE than in ADHD.

I've been where you are. For five years I insisted I had ADHD. But I don't.

Also, have you heard about mixed episodes or ultradian cycling?

Peri once told me, when I was really new here, that we "recognise our own kind".

I'd that you are:

Bipolar: 4:1

Bordeline: 99:401

ADHD: 1:4999


Yes, I've heard of mixed eps and ultradian cycling.

Ok, I'm really bad ad deciphering odds. So you are saying, I'm more likely to be bipolar than not bipolar, I COULD be borderline (marginally less likely than not) and it's very unlikely I've got ADHD?? :scratch:

Fuzzy12
02-11-14, 07:11 AM
I looked up HPD and I can't say unfortunately that I can't relate to the symptoms at all except that I'm neither vivacious unless I'm hypo) nor seductive. l'm not at all actually (neither appropriately nor inappropriately :rolleyes:) and I don't think I blame my failures or disappointments on others.

:scratch::scratch:

Abi
02-11-14, 07:21 AM
Almost right:

Ok, I'm really bad ad deciphering odds. So you are saying, I'm VERY MUCH more likely to be bipolar than not bipolar, I COULD be borderline (<del>marginally</del> SIGNIFICANTLY less likely than not) and it's very unlikely I've got ADHD?? :scratch:

Abi
02-11-14, 07:23 AM
Okay, strike the HPD.

(I only through that in there cos you're pretty. Almost all HPD's are highly attractive. Sucks for us guys. My first girlfriend - who was my first everything - is one)

Abi
02-11-14, 07:28 AM
I should have used a common denominator:

Bipolar: 4000 in 5000

Borderline: 999 in 5000

ADHD: 1 in 5000

avjgirsijdhtjhs
02-11-14, 08:25 AM
I figure this is going to fall on deaf ears, so I'm not going to re-look this stuff up and verify the facts\"facts" I post in this post, so having said that...

If you have low D, your stomach isn't acidic enough to break the B12 (cobalamin) off the meat (go look it up on Stasha Gominak's website). (And what else might that hypoacidity effect?)

If you don't eat meat, you are taking in almost no B12.

Although B12 is water soluble, it is stored in the liver, and the body can\will store a few years worth up to maybe even a decade's worth.

B12 - with dairy and the rare egg being your only good sources, and possibly not good sources at all if your "vitamin" (hormone) D level is low (since that might greatly reduce or completely inhibit absorption), that might would be a significant contributor. Here's a quote from the B12 article link in my first post: In 1973, in a double-blind trial by F. R. Ellis and S. Nasser, B12 shots boosted the energy and lifted the moods of chronically fatigued patients significantly more than shots of water. Sixteen years later, in a less formal single-blind study, orthomolecular psychiatrist Herbert Newbold reported that his B12-responsive patients "invariably" were able to tell whether they had received B12 or an injection of water. <----- Key words being "double-blind" (in the first study), and "invariably" (second study).

You are vegetarian, right? Are you totally vegan and completely avoid animal products, or do you eat eggs or dairy? From what I've read, if you totally avoid animal products, you'll be getting pretty much zero vitamin B12. Also, even though it is a water soluble vitamin, you'll store a few or (more likely) a few more than a few years worth in your liver, so a person that abruptly stopped eating animal products one day might take years to develop problems due to low B12. Low "vitamin" (hormone) D decreases intestinal B12 absorption. Might want to look into sublingual (or nasal sprays or suppositories) methylcobalamin.

Reading this (http://www.mts.net/%7Ebaumel/B12.html) might pique your interest.

Oh yeah, and speaking of livers - Abi:

I was reading up on fatty liver (though my blood test ALT results show that I probably have a pretty unfatty liver) a couple months ago, and found out that choline is what gets fat out of the liver. Doesn't matter what cause(s) caused a person's fatty liver (alcohol, excess fructose, etc), if you have enough choline (and barring some other health problem that screws up this process), you won't have a fatty liver (http://blog.cholesterol-and-health.com/2010/11/sweet-truth-about-liver-and-egg-yolks.html).

Fuzzy12
02-11-14, 11:00 AM
Aww...Avj, I know it doesn't seem that way but nothing you say falls on deaf ears. I'm just a bit cautious or maybe needlessly hesitant about taking supplements. :o

I started taking 4000iu of vit D though I'm not sure that it isn't too much. I'm not vegan and I have milk in my breakfast cereals and coffee. Eggs..rarely. I've looked up food sources of vit B12 and it looks unlikely that I'm getting a lot through my diet. I take a multi vitamin every day, which if I remember right, contains <40% of the RDA. Maybe I need to take a dedicated vit B12 supplement.

Jordanna
02-12-14, 05:01 AM
I normally don't allow myself to listen to Fade To Black because it makes me suicidal but I love that song and today on my drive home I thought I was depressed enough to listen to it.

It was ok. More than anything, I think, I felt just grateful that music so beautiful exists. Maybe the next step is to appreciate that I'm alive and functional enough to listen to beautiful music.

If nothing else, I think, I needed a reminder, that there is always a way out.

I'm new, and I feel like a gnat when I post. But I really think remembering to keep this sort of perspective is key. People say "it's the little things", and I think that, for those of us prone to depression, often it's the tiny things.

In recent years, the study/science of this often elusive thing called "happiness" has seriously taken off. I mean, there's a whole course on it at Harvard (one of the first to fill up). Along with interaction with other human beings, what tops the various lists produced by every one of these studies is gratitude; every single day, even on the bleakest days, it pays dividends to take some time to remember those things for which we're grateful, even if some days it takes effort, and even if it's the tiny things.

I don't want to come to these threads with a load of platitudes or canned sunshine. I'm under it, too, and I know how far that goes much of the time. (That said, I think the response and care from your friends on this forum probably speaks volumes about you; and, piddling as it sounds, you put the first smile of a very long day on my face by playing a turn in my silly music game - putting a smile on someone's face is a big deal.) But this:

More than anything, I think, I felt just grateful that music so beautiful exists. Maybe the next step is to appreciate that I'm alive and functional enough to listen to beautiful music. This is an essential mainstay of my daily thoughts, the stuff that gets me through. The way out part I'm still working on, but it will come.

I don't know. The rest of the input in the above posts have been so substantial, and I don't even know how much sense I'm making (It's 1AM, meds just faded to nil. Can I blame it on that?); but I appreciate the entirety of your thread and wanted to put in the $.02 of the new girl
gnat:o.

Fuzzy12
02-12-14, 06:22 AM
Thanks, Jordanna for the input and you are making a lot of sense. I've never heard of a course on happiness, I should look it up. It would be interesting to see what's on the syllabus.

I've got a weird relationship with gratitude. I can feel grateful for objects or ideas but when it comes to people, gratitude is often enmeshed with guilt and fear. But I think, the kind of gratitude that you are talking about might be more of an appreciation of what's good in your life or in life in general.

You are right, sometimes the little things can make all the difference. Sometimes just feeling a bit of sunshine on my face makes me feel better (I've realised I smile at the sun...super weird probably :lol:).

Or a few nice words from someone. I remember one morning where I was stuck in traffic and horribly frustrated. I finally got so sick of it that I drove on to the bus lane..and promptly got caught. But the police man who wrote my ticket was so sweet and kind, it actually made my day. :o

Dopes1
02-12-14, 07:39 AM
You are right, sometimes the little things can make all the difference. Sometimes just feeling a bit of sunshine on my face makes me feel better (I've realised I smile at the sun...super weird probably :lol:).

Sun exposure is synthesizing vitamin D.