View Full Version : Why men have more ADD, autism etc.


roseblood
02-19-14, 08:05 PM
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/are-men-the-weaker-sex/

Good article, covers a lot of ground, interesting for anyone who wants to learn about gender differences in brain disorders or the various preventable environmental factors that increase levels of inattention, hyperactivity and emotional lability in the population, leading to more people being pushed into the range of clinical impairment. It could also have mentioned Tourette's Syndrome, and even schizophrenia, which is also more common and more severe on average in men, and associated with prenatal factors.

Even though most people don't know the reasons, it seems it's common knowledge that boys have higher rates of conditions that are the most strongly associated with academic failure, so why this is never mentioned in discussions about why boys are falling behind girls as assessment methods demanding organisational skills and self-discipline are increasingly emphasised, is beyond me, but maybe articles from high-profile magazines like this will bring it just far forward enough in people's minds that neurodevelopmental disability will actually occur to the relevant authorities when relevant.

Lunacie
02-19-14, 09:51 PM
I'm not convinced.

It's still considered common knowledge that men have more heart attacks,

although almost all the data and testing has been done on men,

so of course that's how it looks.

dvdnvwls
02-19-14, 10:14 PM
There are multiple possible reasons why this might be true or not true or partly true.

There's an idea that school (especially at the primary levels) is more generally suited to girls in the first place, and that boys in that environment are sometimes labelled inferior performers just for being boys.

There's a pretty strong social expectation that girls will "be good", and that expectation may result in more girls finding inward-directed coping strategies for whatever disorders they might have, thus making their disorders (not to mention girls themselves) less visible.

That's a start.

ginniebean
02-19-14, 11:55 PM
From what I understand there are as many women diagnosed as there are men, the disparity is in girls and boys. Girls being much less likely to be diagnosed.

Fortune
02-20-14, 12:01 AM
Also:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/10/101004101332.htm

When girls with symptoms of autism or ADHD seek professional medical help, their problems are often played down or misinterpreted, and there is a real risk that they will not get the help or support they need. As such, more training is needed in this area, particularly in the public sector, reveals a thesis from the University of Gothenburg.

The thesis focuses primarily on 100 girls who, before reaching adulthood, went to the doctor on account of difficulties with social interaction and/or concentration at school or elsewhere. They were then referred to the paediatric neuropsychiatric clinic at Sahlgrenska University Hospital between 1999 and 2001.

"We could see that their parents had been concerned about the girls' behaviour or development during their first few years of life," says Svenny Kopp, a doctoral student at the Institute of Neuroscience and Physiology at the Sahlgrenska Academy, and consultant paediatric psychiatrist at the Queen Silvia Children's Hospital. "They had also asked for help at an early stage, but hadn't been given a proper diagnosis."

When subsequently given a thorough psychiatric and psychological examination, nearly half of the girls proved to have autism or other autism spectrum disorders, and just as many had ADHD as their main diagnosis. Compared with the control group of 60 girls without any known serious problems, the 100 girls' performance was severely impaired in all areas studied, including psychological, motor and social function.

It also emerged that the girls with autism and ADHD had additional psychiatric and developmental neurological disorders. For example, anxiety, depression, social behaviour disorders and difficulties reading and writing were common in both groups. Half of the girls with autism spectrum disorders or ADHD had been bullied, were frequently truant and avoided sport at school. The study also showed that girls with ADHD smoked more frequently and more overall than the control group.

This is a factor that absolutely must be taken into account in such discussions. Often, it is not.

Conman
02-20-14, 12:24 AM
to this day i still dont know a girl who is diagnosed as AD/HD outside of this site. dont know any girls who are or who admit to it (altho allegedly and according to here girls 'express' AD/HD differently than guys).

but then again most studies say women suffer more from depression than men, but ive been struggling with significant depression issues since 5th grade.

Fortune
02-20-14, 12:34 AM
According to the book ADHD in Adults: What the Science Says, it doesn't express differently in women.

Also, if women are more likely to be depressed than men, this doesn't apply to individuals, so it has no bearing on your depression (nor on mine, as a woman who has dealt with MDD for decades).

Lunacie
02-20-14, 12:38 AM
to this day i still dont know a girl who is diagnosed as AD/HD outside of this site. dont know any girls who are or who admit to it (altho allegedly and according to here girls 'express' AD/HD differently than guys).

but then again most studies say women suffer more from depression than men, but ive been struggling with significant depression issues since 5th grade.

Funny, because it's just the opposite for me. I know at least 5 women who have ADHD

(besides me, my daughter and my granddaughter) and I don't know any guys with ADHD.

mildadhd
02-20-14, 02:27 AM
From the OP Link (http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/are-men-the-weaker-sex/)?


Humans start out in the womb with female features (that’s why males have nipples).


Is a male, a type of female?












i!i

dvdnvwls
02-20-14, 02:36 AM
Is a male, a type of female?
If you want to think of it that way, yes, I guess so. But this idea goes against the actual definition of male and female, so in truth the answer would be no.

Fortune
02-20-14, 05:26 AM
The definitions of male and female involve multiple features that are not all in alignment. Basically you're assigned a sex at birth based on visible signifiers (that is, what your genitals look like).

Also, it's more that fetuses start with features that are not really male or female, and then develop based on genetic, hormonal, environmental factors.

mildadhd
02-20-14, 12:40 PM
Thanks, I thought it was an interesting hypothesis about, "why men have nipples", in the OP article.

I have heard before that all humans "start" as female, but I really don't know?

(prenatal specifics seem to depend partly on age/period of human development?)


During childhood play there doesn't seem to be much difference between girls and boys play behavior.

Higher cortex areas seem to learn/develop the same way, in both males and females.

There is more than one way for humans to respond during fight, freeze or flight, stressors.

I wonder if ADD, (as apposed to ADHD), in males and females, is partly to do with flight/freeze response, as apposed to fight/flight response, during anxious type circumstances?

And also that ADD is just less visually obvious to others, in both men and women, because of suppressed hyperactivity.

Sometimes, women might naturally choose the freeze response more, resulting in ADD, because they naturally need to protect themselves and their babies?

I would guess that less visually hyperactive people, would be less likely to be diagnosed, than visually hyperactive people?




BrainWorld:

Did you do any play research with humans?


Jaak Panksepp:

We did perhaps the first systematic experimental research on human children.

But human physical play still has not been extensively studied. Developmental psychologists usually only study play with toys and games.

We studied the play of two friends—pairs of boys and girls at 47 years of age—in an empty room with mats on the floor but no toys.

“Play and enjoy,” we told them, and videotaped their interactions for about half an hour.

We scored about 20 behaviors such as running after each other, wrestling, pushing from the front, pushing from the back, laughing, and so forth.

Surprisingly, there was hardly any difference between the play of young girls and boys, as the human play literature led us to believe.

A lot of people have claimed that boys play more, but we don’t see that in our rats or our human studies.

We think many of the reported gender differences in play are a result of learning rather than any intrinsic differences.

- See more at: http://brainworldmagazine.com/dr-jaak-panksepp-the-importance-of-play/#sthash.yMjeOnE8.dpuf




i!i

Fortune
02-20-14, 08:00 PM
Fetuses don't start as female, they develop features that are considered male or female over time. Nipples aren't a "female feature." They're an anatomical feature that is part of a structure that develops a certain way when exposed to estrogen but does not otherwise develop.

This article has a paragraph:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-do-men-have-nipples/

In a now-famous paper, Stephen Jay Gould and Richard C. Lewontin emphasize that we should not immediately assume that every trait has an adaptive explanation. Just as the spandrels of St. Mark's domed cathedral in Venice are simply an architectural consequence of the meeting of a vaulted ceiling with its supporting pillars, the presence of nipples in male mammals is a genetic architectural by-product of nipples in females. So, why do men have nipples? Because females do.

But this still does not mean that nipples are a female feature.

roseblood
02-20-14, 09:08 PM
I'm not convinced.

It's still considered common knowledge that men have more heart attacks,

although almost all the data and testing has been done on men,

so of course that's how it looks.

Men develop heart disease much earlier in life than women on average, so until you get into old age, it's true. The earlier average male onset trend is found with some neurological conditions too, e.g. OCD and anorexia nervosa. Under-diagnosis is a possibility with mild symptoms of something, but not something as drastic as premature death, which men also suffer more from as a result of fatal heart attacks (and cancer, accidents and most other causes). Are you going to allege that middle aged men don't really even *die* more often as a direct result of heart disease, that just as many middle aged women are having fatal heart attacks they're somehow never diagnosed even after death? Boys more often right from the point of conception, through babyhood, childhood and adulthood. Are deaths of girls and women from all causes going under-reported too? If you don't even believe heart disease kills men more often than women, do you think the higher female life expectancy is a myth too? If not, what explains it? I don't understand your reasoning here.

roseblood
02-20-14, 09:35 PM
There's an idea that school (especially at the primary levels) is more generally suited to girls in the first place, and that boys in that environment are sometimes labelled inferior performers just for being boys.
And this article explains why supposed "boy traits" have come to be seen as such - they're in fact just "brain damaged boy traits". We're all so used to living in a society with high rates of early neurological traumas and poisoning, which are proven to affect boys much more than girls, that we think it's natural and inevitable for boys to have so much more trouble with impulse-control, attentiveness, and other prefrontal cortex-related skills. We think males are genetically programmed to suffer their higher rate of problem behaviour and crime, that it's an inevitable part of the male condition. That's very sad because all the scientific evidence is suggesting that boys could be just as well-behaved as girls if only we'd stop damaging their brains en masse, and stop assuming that there's nothing we can do about it.

There's a pretty strong social expectation that girls will "be good", and that expectation may result in more girls finding inward-directed coping strategies for whatever disorders they might have, thus making their disorders (not to mention girls themselves) less visible.

Having grown up a very well-behaved girl myself, I don't buy this at all. It makes no sense. I wasn't better behaved because of the expectation I would be - what would that even mean? Fearing more disapproval? Girls aren't given stricter discipline than boys, in fact boys have a higher rate of physical abuse and corporal punishment in every culture where it's been surveyed, and women even get significantly lower sentences for the same crimes. We're also rarely given significant disapproval for "acting like boys" in my experience, indeed many parents actively encourage their daughters to be tomboys from a young age. What might play a role in making boys' disorders more visible is how incredibly cruel people can be to boys with "internalising" symptoms like crying or shyness - many people would even beat a boy for being a "sissy" and actually prefer he "act out", whereas I always found my fellow females could be as feminine and soft or as masculine and hard as we liked with little or no gender-shaming or bullying. I've read of a study into how the average parent (in the US, at least, where this was) reacts to shy male toddlers versus shy female toddlers, and their mental health outcomes just a few years later, and it strongly supported this notion - girl shyness is endearing, boy shyness triggers concern, shame and anger. The stigma against sensitivity in boys, probably causes boys to act out their frustrations more often. However that only brings me to the next point...

The social expectation that boys will be more ADHD-like in the first place, would surely decrease boys' chance of diagnosis, not girls'. A boy would have to have much worse symptoms to stand out to most people than a girl would. I've seen this manifest in a few ways, e.g. people suggesting that a girl who is less hyperactive than most of the boys in her class, still has a hyperactive form of ADHD while they do not, just because she's more hyperactive than the other girls. Then there's Berkley's suggestion for the DSM-5 that boys should have to display more symptoms than girls for a diagnosis, which is just as ridiculous as saying that because women have more depressive symptoms on average, we should have to display more symptoms than men to get diagnosed with depression.

Lunacie
02-20-14, 09:39 PM
Men develop heart disease much earlier in life than women on average, so until you get into old age, it's true. The earlier average male onset trend is found with some neurological conditions too, e.g. OCD and anorexia nervosa.

Under-diagnosis is a possibility with mild symptoms of something, but not something as drastic as premature death, which men also suffer more from as a result of fatal heart attacks (and cancer, accidents and most other causes). Are you going to allege that middle aged men don't really even *die* more often as a direct result of heart disease, that just as many middle aged women are having fatal heart attacks they're somehow never diagnosed even after death?

Boys more often right from the point of conception, through babyhood, childhood and adulthood. Are deaths of girls and women from all causes going under-reported too? If you don't even believe heart disease kills men more often than women, do you think the higher female life expectancy is a myth too? If not, what explains it? I don't understand your reasoning here.

I've been looking for confirmation on which gender experiences more heart attacks in general.

I'm finding very different opinions on this question.

Unfortunately it seems that the age of onset for heart disease is getting lower in women too.

What I am finding is that women more often die from heart attacks because they

and their doctors don't recognize what's happening. And they delay getting treatment

because they mistakenly believe that women don't have heart attacks and don't die from them.

http://www.sheknows.com/health-and-wellness/articles/982755/new-research-on-women-and-heart-disease


In response to the conversation with dvd ... research indicates that girls are both socially

and genetically programmed to be people pleasers, while boys are socially and genetically

programmed to be more independent. Being people pleasers can mask the traits of ADHD.

roseblood
02-20-14, 10:34 PM
Also:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/10/101004101332.htm



This is a factor that absolutely must be taken into account in such discussions. Often, it is not.
That means nothing all the time the group wasn't compared to an equivalent group of men and boys. Depending on the subtype, I wouldn't be surprised if boys' symptoms are missed or dismissed more often than girls, because of the gender stereotypes. "Boys will be boys." I can't count how many times I've seen people dismiss ADHD as a disorder on the basis that "all boys test authority and hate sitting still".

roseblood
02-20-14, 11:04 PM
I've been looking for confirmation on which gender experiences more heart attacks in general.

I'm finding very different opinions on this question.

Unfortunately it seems that the age of onset for heart disease is getting lower in women too.

What I am finding is that women more often die from heart attacks because they

and their doctors don't recognize what's happening. And they delay getting treatment

because they mistakenly believe that women don't have heart attacks and don't die from them.

http://www.sheknows.com/health-and-wellness/articles/982755/new-research-on-women-and-heart-disease

Analysis is always going to be complicated because there are numerous factors that could be measured and used to decide which gender has "more heart disease", e.g. number of heart attacks, severity, fatality rate, age of onset. By the time women reach the age at which their risk of heart attack is the same as men's, there are significantly fewer men left alive of their age. So for example, if you compare the rate between men in general and women in general, but fail to stratify by age, you'll over-estimate women's relative risk because a lot more men who would be at very high risk have died of something else before having the chance to be included in the statistics with their female peers.

Point being, yes there are caveats, but overall the evidence is still overwhelming that the male body is more prone to malfunctioning in response to environmental triggers, and this includes the brain. The ramifications are huge and I don't think should be ignored. It's more evidence and raises awareness that yes, this is a largely preventable condition, as many genetically-influenced conditions are, and it answers one of the criticisms of ADHD-deniers, i.e. "it's diagnosed more commonly in boys because you're pathologising the masculine personality/because boys aren't being raised properly".

Fortune
02-20-14, 11:12 PM
That means nothing all the time the group wasn't compared to an equivalent group of men and boys. Depending on the subtype, I wouldn't be surprised if boys' symptoms are missed or dismissed more often than girls, because of the gender stereotypes. "Boys will be boys." I can't count how many times I've seen people dismiss ADHD as a disorder on the basis that "all boys test authority and hate sitting still".

Clinical professionals who diagnose ADHD and autism as a specialty are not going to dismiss ADHD as a disorder on the basis that "all boys test authority and hate sitting still."

Gender biases in medical diagnosis are hardly a new thing, either, and these biases are primarily against women, leading to fewer diagnoses and greater likelihood of misdiagnoses:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-bias_in_medical_diagnosis
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9101075
http://www.autism.org.uk/about-autism/autism-and-asperger-syndrome-an-introduction/gender-and-autism/women-and-girls-on-the-autism-spectrum.aspx
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2009/apr/12/autism-aspergers-girls
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1395774/
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/472415
http://www.quotient-adhd.com/page/females-with-adhd-the-gender-gap

There's no shortage of literature discussing this, and I am kind of confused as to how someone would discuss discrepancies in diagnoses of boys and girls without having at least a passing familiarity with this.

Also, given that a significantly larger number of boys are diagnosed, I don't think one can really argue that there is any bias against taking them seriously when they present with symptoms or that such a bias would be revealed in a different study comparing boys to girls.

The problem with these articles that try to propose biological differences as the cause for broad diagnostic discrepancies is that they frequently fail to address cultural gender biases, and it is not possible to make clear, educated statements about these things without also addressing those biases.

roseblood
02-20-14, 11:37 PM
From what I understand there are as many women diagnosed as there are men, the disparity is in girls and boys. Girls being much less likely to be diagnosed.

Given all the other evidence, I think the most plausible interpretation of that is that when girls go undiagnosed, they're more likely to get diagnosed when they grow up than are boys who go undiagnosed. This is consistent with male and female behaviour with mental health and diagnosis in general: untreated ADHD is heavily associated with depression and anxiety, which these are usually what prompt someone to seek help and eventually get the ADHD diagnosis, and women are much more likely to see a doctor about depression or anxiety than men are (probably due to a combination of lower actual rates, and reluctance to seek help). Men are also more likely to end up in correctional or rehabilitation facilities, which it's easy to forget when they're all hidden away from the rest of society in their millions, is very common with untreated ADHD. That probably makes learning of ADHD and getting a diagnosis even less likely (although that is changing as there's increasing awareness from the institutions about the high rate of ADHD in their populations).

roseblood
02-20-14, 11:58 PM
Clinical professionals who diagnose ADHD and autism as a specialty are not going to dismiss ADHD as a disorder on the basis that "all boys test authority and hate sitting still."

No but those who control whether they get referred in the first place (parents, teachers), definitely do.

Gender biases in medical diagnosis are hardly a new thing, either, and these biases are primarily against women, leading to fewer diagnoses and greater likelihood of misdiagnoses:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-bias_in_medical_diagnosis
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9101075
http://www.autism.org.uk/about-autism/autism-and-asperger-syndrome-an-introduction/gender-and-autism/women-and-girls-on-the-autism-spectrum.aspx
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2009/apr/12/autism-aspergers-girls
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1395774/
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/472415
http://www.quotient-adhd.com/page/females-with-adhd-the-gender-gap

There's no shortage of literature discussing this, and I am kind of confused as to how someone would discuss discrepancies in diagnoses of boys and girls without having at least a passing familiarity with this.

Why do you assume I know nothing about it? I read of all these social theories with interest when I first got learned of ADHD and AS and sought diagnosis for myself. It's because I've read so much about it, that I've got a position on the issue at all. When it comes to ADHD and AS, the interpretation that the diagnosis rate is the result of gender bias make no sense to me, for the reasons I've given and more.

Yes, to avoid harming people who could potentially be or soon become pregnant, most drug trials have been conducted on men. That has nothing to do with the diagnosis rate of AS and ADHD though, for which the gender stereotypes would logically cause fewer boys to be diagnosed, not more.

Also, given that a significantly larger number of boys are diagnosed, I don't think one can really argue that there is any bias against taking them seriously when they present with symptoms or that such a bias would be revealed in a different study comparing boys to girls.
More boys are diagnosed because more boys have it and have it more severely. At least, that's what the evidence firmly points to, in my opinion. What I'm saying is that the gender stereotypes we all agree exist, would in fact predict that if a girl and a boy had exactly the same symptoms, the girl would be more likely to be diagnosed, because she would be even more of a noticeable outlier to the laypeople around her.

The problem with these articles that try to propose biological differences as the cause for broad diagnostic discrepancies is that they frequently fail to address cultural gender biases, and it is not possible to make clear, educated statements about these things without also addressing those biases.
The kind of studies referenced in the article were not the type that could be affected by cultural biases. They didn't use diagnosis rates, for one thing. Could you give an example of how you think any of the studies referenced could have been affected by culture? E.g., what cultural factor causes babies who had more lead in the umbilical cord to be developmentally behind babies with less, and for this trend to be much stronger in boys than girls?

Lunacie
02-21-14, 01:32 AM
So if boys are 4 times more likely to be dx with ADHD than girls are ...

yet in adults the numbers are more even ...

what happens between childhood and adulthood?

Do boys more often "grow out of it" than girls do?

Or are girls underdiagnosed?

janiew
02-21-14, 01:57 AM
Historical research for ADHD, ASD, etc. has centered on males. And has involved trying to make them conform to the NT norm - like it exists.

There is research about how ADHD, ASD, etc. manifests differently in females due to our social differences, but it's still in the early stages.

Based on what I have experienced, it is underdiagnosed.

Kinda like the manifestations of cardio disease, etc. in men are different than women and most of the research has centered on males.

roseblood
02-21-14, 05:01 AM
So if boys are 4 times more likely to be dx with ADHD than girls are ...

yet in adults the numbers are more even ...

what happens between childhood and adulthood?

Do boys more often "grow out of it" than girls do?

Or are girls underdiagnosed?

It's not the case that the chance of having an ADHD diagnosis becomes even for men and women, instead the rate of being diagnosed while an adult is what is even for men and women. This means there are still several times more men who've ever had a diagnosis than there are women. With that in mind, I already explained, in post 20 (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1619262&postcount=20):

Given all the other evidence, I think the most plausible interpretation of that is that when girls go undiagnosed, they're more likely to get diagnosed when they grow up than are boys who go undiagnosed. This is consistent with male and female behaviour with mental health and diagnosis in general: untreated ADHD is heavily associated with depression and anxiety, which these are usually what prompt someone to seek help and eventually get the ADHD diagnosis, and women are much more likely to see a doctor about depression or anxiety than men are (probably due to a combination of lower actual rates, and reluctance to seek help). Men are also more likely to end up in correctional or rehabilitation facilities, which it's easy to forget when they're all hidden away from the rest of society in their millions, is very common with untreated ADHD. That probably makes learning of ADHD and getting a diagnosis even less likely (although that is changing as there's increasing awareness from the institutions about the high rate of ADHD in their populations).

In other words, there need not be a higher proportion of girls undiagnosed than boys undiagnosed - there might even be a lower one, for all we know. What's happening could be that those who go through childhood undiagnosed, are more likely to stay undiagnosed as adults, if they're male.

roseblood
02-21-14, 05:16 AM
Historical research for ADHD, ASD, etc. has centered on males. And has involved trying to make them conform to the NT norm - like it exists.

There is research about how ADHD, ASD, etc. manifests differently in females due to our social differences, but it's still in the early stages.

Based on what I have experienced, it is underdiagnosed.

Kinda like the manifestations of cardio disease, etc. in men are different than women and most of the research has centered on males.
In both heart disease and ADHD, the symptoms are worse and more prevalent in men, so they were initially primarily studied in men, but in both cases, when you use the same criteria for assessing symptoms in the general population, it is confirmed that men do indeed have more symptoms of both heart disease and ADHD. The same is true of women's higher rate of depression, which is probably somewhat exaggerated due to the fact that internalising symptoms are those included in the diagnostic criteria, but general population studies show it's not a complete myth.

Now when people assess ADHD symptoms using ADHD rating scales, it is standard to only consider them over the threshold if they have more symptoms than average for their gender. Because the average boy has been shown in every general population study of the rating scales to score higher than the average girl, that a boy has to have more symptoms than a girl in order to be given the same ADHD rating score and pass the screening phase or be counted as having ADHD in scientific research! I don't know why I didn't say this to start with to be honest, because it's clearly the one thing that actually proves boys have more ADHD symptoms than girls and that in fact, boys are discriminated against when it comes to some ADHD assessment methods - they have to have more symptoms to get a diagnosis.

roseblood
02-21-14, 05:21 AM
This bears repeating for every reader of the thread as I wish I'd just explained it to start with:

Because the average boy has been shown in every general population study of the rating scales to score higher than the average girl, i.e. boys in general have more ADHD symptoms than girls in general, it's standard procedure that a boy has to have more symptoms than a girl in order to be given the same risk classification and pass the screening phase, or be counted as having ADHD in research that uses rating scales. Just imagine if the same principle were used in depression: "women have more symptoms of depression anyway, so we're going to set the rating scale threshold between normal risk and high risk, higher for women than men." It would cause outrage. This practice actively discriminates against boys' chance of diagnosis and in the statistics of actual ADHD prevalence in some forms of research.

Lunacie
02-21-14, 10:49 AM
This bears repeating for every reader of the thread as I wish I'd just explained it to start with:

Because the average boy has been shown in every general population study of the rating scales to score higher than the average girl, i.e. boys in general have more ADHD symptoms than girls in general, it's standard procedure that a boy has to have more symptoms than a girl in order to be given the same risk classification and pass the screening phase, or be counted as having ADHD in research that uses rating scales. Just imagine if the same principle were used in depression: "women have more symptoms of depression anyway, so we're going to set the rating scale threshold between normal risk and high risk, higher for women than men." It would cause outrage. This practice actively discriminates against boys' chance of diagnosis and in the statistics of actual ADHD prevalence in some forms of research.

Some of our differences of opinion are likely due to living in different countries.

In the US, boys and girls have to meet the same criteria (number of symptoms)

to be diagnosed with ADHD, or any mental disorder.

The same is true for men and women.

mildadhd
02-21-14, 03:58 PM
The definitions of male and female involve multiple features that are not all in alignment. Basically you're assigned a sex at birth based on visible signifiers (that is, what your genitals look like).

Also, it's more that fetuses start with features that are not really male or female, and then develop based on genetic, hormonal, environmental factors.

Thanks,

Ale = prefemale/premale? (I just made that up)

Female
Male



Also, I wonder if, chromosomal, hormonal, environmental factors may partly be why more men have AD(H)D?

While males may be physically stronger than females, to keep family safe, and, females may be mentally stronger to keep family safe?

Men have higher amounts of some hormones that promote "the male role", and females have higher amounts of some hormones to promote "the female role".

Also, important to recognize, sometimes, "the sex role" may appear to be male or female from the "outside", but, may be different on the inside.

Part of the idea is that hormonally males seem to be less confident during some over anxious circumstances than females.

Making certain variations of epigenetic expression, more likely.

(idea presented for discussion nothing written stone, working on learning the information inspired partly from a primary process affective neuroscientific view)

(Inherited hypersensitive may or may not be a contributing factor, individual circumstances apply.)

(side note I am learning, please leave room for errors, and multiple other factors)



the layman subjective information presented for discussion/learning.




i!i

mildadhd
02-22-14, 07:55 PM
Sex differences in regional cerebral glucose metabolism during a resting state

Positron emission tomography was used to evaluate the regional distribution of cerebral glucose metabolism in 61 healthy adults at rest. Although the profile of metabolic activity was similar for men and women, some sex differences and hemispheric asymmetries were detectable. Men had relatively higher metabolism than women in temporal-limbic regions and cerebellum and relatively lower metabolism in cingulate regions. In both sexes, metabolism was relatively higher in left association cortices and the cingulate region and in right ventro-temporal limbic regions and their projections. These results are consistent with the hypothesis that differences in cognitive and emotional processing have biological substrates.


http://www.sciencemag.org/content/267/5197/528

mildadhd
02-22-14, 08:11 PM
Oxytocin enhances the experience of attachment security

Summary

Repeated interactions between infant and caregiver result in either secure or insecure relationship attachment patterns, and insecure attachment may affect individual emotion-regulation and health.

Given that oxytocin enhances social approach behavior in animals and humans, we hypothesized that oxytocin might also promote the subjective experience of attachment security in humans.

Within a 3-week interval, 26 healthy male students classified with an insecure attachment pattern were invited twice to an experimental session.

At the beginning of each experiment, a single dose of oxytocin or placebo was administered intranasally, using a double-blind, placebo-controlled within-subject design.

In both conditions, subjects completed an attachment task based on the Adult Attachment Projective Picture System (AAP).

Thirty-two AAP picture system presentations depicted attachment-related events (e.g. illness, solitude,separation, and loss), and were each accompanied by four prototypical phrases representing one secure and three insecure attachment categories.

In the oxytocin condition, a significant proportion of these insecure subjects (N = 18; 69%) increased in their rankings of the AAP prototypical ‘‘secure attachment’’ phrases and decreased in overall ranking of the ‘‘insecure attachment’’ phrases. In particular, there was a significant decrease in the number of subjects
ranking the pictures with ‘‘insecure-preoccupied’’ phrases from the placebo to the oxytocin condition.

We find that a single dose of intranasally administered oxytocin is sufficient to induce a significant increase in the experience of attachment security in insecurely attached adults.

# 2009 Elsevier Ltd. All rights reserved.

KEYWORDS
Human attachment;
Oxytocin;
Intranasal;
Attachment security;
Attachment insecurity;
Emotion-regulation

http://attachmentprojective.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Buchheim-et-al.-2009-oxytocin.pdf

mildadhd
02-22-14, 08:18 PM
Question:

I wonder if there is more oxytocin present in female brains, than male brains, during early childhood, at least in part, making AD(H)D more likely in males than females, but not limited to only males? (specifics would depend on individual)



Laymans


i!i

erratic
02-23-14, 01:28 AM
There is the criticized "Empathizing-Systemizing theory" which extends to "Extreme Male Brain theory" for autism.

Fortune
02-23-14, 02:21 AM
The extreme male brain theory is bunk. It's based almost entirely on arbitrarily assigning genders to behaviors and claiming that autistic people are more "male" by that definition. The empathy quotient and systemizing quotient are best described as tests that autistic people are more likely to score in a particular range on, but may not reflect any actual systemizing or empathy capabilities.

Oh yeah, and autism attenuates sex differences in brain structures:

http://www.ajnr.org/content/33/1/83.short

BACKGROUND AND PURPOSE: It has been proposed that autism spectrums condition may represent a form of extreme male brain (EMB), a notion supported by psychometric, behavioral, and endocrine evidence. Yet, limited data are presently available evaluating this hypothesis in terms of neuroanatomy. Here, we investigated sex-related anatomic features in adults with AS, a “pure” form of autism not involving major developmental delay.

MATERIALS AND METHODS: Males and females with AS and healthy controls (n = 28 and 30, respectively) were recruited. Structural MR imaging was performed to measure overall gray and white matter volume and to assess regional effects by means of VBM. DTI was used to investigate the integrity of the main white matter tracts.

RESULTS: Significant interactions were found between sex and diagnosis in total white matter volume, regional gray matter volume in the right parietal operculum, and fractional anisotropy (FA) in the body of the CC, cingulum, and CR. Post hoc comparisons indicated that the typical sexual dimorphism found in controls, whereby males have larger FA and total white matter volume, was absent or attenuated in participants with AS.

CONCLUSIONS: Our results point to a fundamental role of the factors that underlie sex-specific brain differentiation in the etiology of autism.

erratic
02-23-14, 02:43 AM
I didn't believe it but I thought I'd throw it in an hear out whatever elaboration came about.

Kinda off topic: I wouldn't say arbitrarily assigning genders to behavior. More like the observed behaviors that are typically assigned to gender by nature expanded upon. I came across this for other reasons and while I don't subscribe to this theory I do see extreme value in using this underlying concept of the two poles of empathizing and systemizing for further thinking.

Fortune
02-23-14, 03:13 AM
Nature doesn't assign behaviors to gender... genders are socially constructed roles defined within society. These have changed in terms of clothing, behavior, associated colors, etc. over time.

By definition it's really only possible for humans to assign genders to human behavior on account of we're the ones who reproduce and reinforce gender expectations.

erratic
02-23-14, 03:43 AM
I'm speaking biologically. As the natural predisposition regardless of cultural phenomena and based on biology. Gender may usually be referred in a social and cultural sense but not exclusively. But indeed these cultural and social situations greatly influence genetic expression. Regardless, it's been observed over thousands of years, the expression of female and male amongst all known cultures and that's what I think the initial hypothesis was based on, and not arbitrary.

mildadhd
02-26-14, 03:38 AM
Do men have more ADD that women?





Peripherals

datajunkie
02-26-14, 01:26 PM
I'll have to come back to this when I have more time but having bred dogs for almost 30 years now and also working with livestock, the behaviors affected by sexual maturation and desexing as well as time of desexing influence behavior drastically. Or there would be no need to castrate stallions and bulls. Castrating adult male dogs doesn't have as much affect as castration before sexual maturity but also affects physical traits. Early desexing of both male and female keep them looking and acting puppylike and increases the odds of some bone cancers as well as weak structure as bone plates need a surge of sex hormones to close.

meadd823
02-26-14, 02:19 PM
I'll have to come back to this when I have more time but having bred dogs for almost 30 years now and also working with livestock, the behaviors affected by sexual maturation and desexing as well as time of desexing influence behavior drastically. Or there would be no need to castrate stallions and bulls. Castrating adult male dogs doesn't have as much affect as castration before sexual maturity but also affects physical traits. Early desexing of both male and female keep them looking and acting puppylike and increases the odds of some bone cancers as well as weak structure as bone plates need a surge of sex hormones to close.



Interjecting with species vs individual variations = The same is not necessarily true of cats, behavioral speaking nothing is true of all cats.

Male cats neutered as kittens do not develop jowls but I have had male cats neutered as kittens still express a sexual desire toward females whom I have never known to possess such a behavior as the "estrus dance and howl" after being spayed, although some are more tolerant than others toward the horny but neutered male cat-

On the other hand I have had toms neutered in late adulthood yet they never again pursue copulation even in the face of a female in full blown estrus dance and howl. . . . .

Gosh could there be such a thing as individualism even among other mammalian species.

I have about as many years of experience in preventing companion animal breeding as you do promoting it but I specialize in halting the increase in feline population with special emphasis on the feral homeless variety.


My sister does the canine thing and in the name of accurate information based on science please note

Desexing at young ages may be a specific concern for those interested in " performance canines" The bone structure formation difference would be more of a problem to consider for those who own/ breed dogs for used racing and other athletic performance not sought by or a concern for a majority of pet guardians.


Veterinary Advice Online: Male Dog Neutering. (http://www.pet-informed-veterinary-advice-online.com/male-dog-neutering.html#info-neuter)




...........

datajunkie
02-26-14, 07:18 PM
Not all sex hormones are produced by testes and ovaries. The adrenals also produce some. Some geldings, even if castrated before sexual maturity, exhibit strong breeding behaviors and still act like a stud. Perhaps more receptors for testosterone or more sensitive to the trace amounts produced.

Yes, performance animal breeders have paid more attention to the affects of desexing on physical and mental traits than companion or beauty queen breeders who have screwed up so many breeds physically and mentally. Springer Spaniels prone to rage syndrome and related seizures, Quarterhorses that carried a gene leading to minute quivering of muscles increasing mass but when homozygous could cause a horse's GI tract to spasm and basically ***** to death at a show when the stress caused quivers in the wrong muscles. That gene was banned finally.

Following the traits of siblings, parents, other closely related dogs over the generations and observing changes in those intact, desexed and when starts to show patterns. But the subject isn't bashing any sort of breeder or when an owner chooses to desex, if s/he chooses to do so. Very few health reasons to castrate male dogs outside of some lines prone to prostate issues. The subject is the effect of hormones on cognition and behavior.

I may be wrong but I don't think women have more oxytocin overall and certainly not all the time. It rises during labor as it causes contractions of the uterus. I think breast feeding also causes it to rise and may still cause some uterine contractions which further help the uterus to clear any unexpelled tissues. But it is not as constant as estrogen and progesterone which also will vary through out their cycle.

What are the facts? I could be wrong but the data seems to indicate male humans are dx'd with AD/HD more often and more strongly than females. I personally am using bioidentical estrogen and testosterone to replace my post menopause levels to levels that relieve my symptoms. When starting T use, I did not see any increase in AD/HD symptoms but that doesn't rule out the possibility that some testosterone fluctuation during pregnancy primed me for AD/HD--i have strong tomboy traits and this is linked to such a surge. I have absolutely no mothering instincts for baby humans, detested playing with dolls and have had far more male friends than women lifelong. The book Molecules of Emotion has some good info on this T surge and the effects on women.

roseblood
03-17-14, 08:19 AM
Some of our differences of opinion are likely due to living in different countries.

In the US, boys and girls have to meet the same criteria (number of symptoms)

to be diagnosed with ADHD, or any mental disorder.

The same is true for men and women.
Sorry I'm so late getting back to this thread.

I wasn't talking about the diagnostic criteria. They are the same for both genders here, as well. I was talking about the screening checklist thresholds. Before a child (or here, adult as well) is offered a diagnostic interview at all, or can be included in research, they often have to pass a screening phase, because that is the policy of the some professionals and organisations. In the USA as with everywhere else using the same checklists, a child is officially only supposed to be put in the "high probability" category and therefore get offered a full evaluation against the diagnostic criteria, if they score higher than average for their age and gender. This principle is not applied to mental illnesses, only to developmental disorders, otherwise women would have to have more signs of some mood and anxiety disorders than men would in the screening checklists, before a doctor would agree to refer them for a full evaluation. The result of this, and the result of social expectations that boys are "supposed to be" more hyperactive anyway, is that it's actually somewhat harder for a boy to be diagnosed than a girl, when their symptoms are identical.

roseblood
03-17-14, 08:40 AM
There is the criticized "Empathizing-Systemizing theory" which extends to "Extreme Male Brain theory" for autism.

That's another example of the same false conclusion drawn about gender and development disorders. People think "boys have a higher rate of this condition and the average boy has more sub-clinical signs of it than the average girl, so the basic traits must be healthy and natural for boys", instead of the truth, which is that boys have higher rates of all developmental conditions because their brains are more easily permanently damaged than girls' brains are.

With ADHD, the neurological correlations, such as a smaller corpus callossum and slower maturity of the prefrontal cortex, are also correlated with gender. People with ADHD have a smaller corpus callossum and slower developing PFC on average than people who don't, and boys have a smaller corpus callossum and slower developing PFC on average than girls. The size of the corpus callossum and maturity of the PFC are very much affected by prenatal exposure to alcohol, lead and tobacco, all, once again, things that are proven to have worse effects on boys than girls. All of the evidence screams at us that boys display more signs of these conditions on average because they're more brain damaged on average, and we need to take steps to minimise developmental brain damage for all our children because it clearly has a significant influence on both the number of cases and the severity of cases of ADHD, dyspraxia and some other disorders.

datajunkie
03-17-14, 11:10 AM
With ADHD, the neurological correlations, such as a smaller corpus callossum and slower maturity of the prefrontal cortex, are also correlated with gender. People with ADHD have a smaller corpus callossum and slower developing PFC on average than people who don't, and boys have a smaller corpus callossum and slower developing PFC on average than girls. The size of the corpus callossum and maturity of the PFC are very much affected by prenatal exposure to alcohol, lead and tobacco, all, once again, things that are proven to have worse effects on boys than girls. All of the evidence screams at us that boys display more signs of these conditions on average because they're more brain damaged on average, and we need to take steps to minimise developmental brain damage for all our children because it clearly has a significant influence on both the number of cases and the severity of cases of ADHD, dyspraxia and some other disorders.

Do you have references for the corpus callosum? I was looking for info on the sex differences between men and women re this recently and found the original conclusion that women have a larger corpus callosum than men was invalidated--some mishandling of the cadaver brains used and a small sample size. I don't know if the information was updated with current studies using some method of measuring more brains and live brains.

The data on lead exposure and violent crime is interesting. A 20 year lag between rising lead exposure first from lead paint, then leaded gas, and a decrease following each ban. So many possible toxins now that can mess us up. For me, I suspect second hand smoke from my father's 3 pack a day habit, DDT due to my community's fogging for mosquitoes and some other risk factors came together.

erratic
04-09-14, 08:45 PM
That's another example of the same false conclusion drawn about gender and development disorders. People think "boys have a higher rate of this condition and the average boy has more sub-clinical signs of it than the average girl, so the basic traits must be healthy and natural for boys", instead of the truth, which is that boys have higher rates of all developmental conditions because their brains are more easily permanently damaged than girls' brains are.

With ADHD, the neurological correlations, such as a smaller corpus callossum and slower maturity of the prefrontal cortex, are also correlated with gender. People with ADHD have a smaller corpus callossum and slower developing PFC on average than people who don't, and boys have a smaller corpus callossum and slower developing PFC on average than girls. The size of the corpus callossum and maturity of the PFC are very much affected by prenatal exposure to alcohol, lead and tobacco, all, once again, things that are proven to have worse effects on boys than girls. All of the evidence screams at us that boys display more signs of these conditions on average because they're more brain damaged on average, and we need to take steps to minimise developmental brain damage for all our children because it clearly has a significant influence on both the number of cases and the severity of cases of ADHD, dyspraxia and some other disorders.


I agree that we need more helmets for babies.

JJJJJJJJJJ
09-25-14, 03:33 PM
Boyd Haley, former chair of chem dept at the U of KY, suggests that testosterone vs estrogen levels are involved. He addresses this in the first pages of this paper. (http://homeoint.ru/pdfs/haley.pdf)
Mercury toxicity: Genetic susceptibility and synergistic effects

He thinks mercury is involved in a large percentage of cases of autism--and Alzheimers. (http://www.stelior.ee/Boyd_Haley_Medical_Veritas_AD_paper_final.pdf)

Some in the autism community think Aspergers and ADD are more mild forms of autism, in many cases influenced by heavy metals.

This large survey (http://www.autism.com/index.php/treatment_ratings_asd) of parents by the Autism Research Institute further supoorts their view.
"Detox. (chelation)" 74% report "got better", 3% report "got worse", 23% report "no effect"
The 74% rating is the best of the many dozens of listed interventions.

Dr Daniel Amen says girls often have the inattentive form of ADD, stereo-typically the ditsy dreamers twirling their hair. They are overlooked as lazy and unintelligent. The boys with AD*H*D drive the teacher nuts and so get treatment.