View Full Version : Testicular time bomb: Older dads' mutant sperm


datajunkie
02-20-14, 08:43 PM
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22129570.800-testicular-time-bomb-older-dads-mutant-sperm.html?full=true#.Uwab42LneSo

Is there any correlation with having one or both parents in mid 30's and older for AD/HD? My sister doesn't show most of my traits. She's 10 years older. My mother was almost 40, dad 38 when I was born.

I have heard of several of the other disorders discussed in the article linked with an older father. The multiple mutation theory had been suggested.

Rebelyell
02-20-14, 08:50 PM
Ive always wondered that myself.my parents too were older like yours.The chord got wrapped around my neck and choked me out at birth but I think that's only half the story.

datajunkie
02-20-14, 09:00 PM
I don't know if there were any complications during labor restricting blood to the brain but it was a C section. I think my mother said I was breech which may have been the reason. I wasn't very small 5 lbs 6 ounces but was born almost a month from expected due day. Very little hair. Whether the conception date may have been wrong, no idea.

But my father was a heavy smoker. He was sent overseas in WWII shortly after married so my sister wasn't exposed to the second hand smoke until she was almost a year and a half old. Also during grade school, the town I lived in sprayed DDT for mosquito control. She was already in high school, perhaps not as vulnerable.

Lunacie
02-20-14, 09:47 PM
I think the genetics have to be in place, but the age of the sperm could exacerbate the risk.

It's been awhile ago, but I've also read that smoking deteriorates male sperm.

It was good to know that not everything that goes wrong is the mother's fault.

erratic
02-20-14, 10:15 PM
My parent were older as well and they had to use those tongs to get me out. My dad must have been at least 40.

sarahsweets
02-21-14, 06:01 AM
both my husband's and father were married young at age 20 as was I. No issues with sperm here, we all have adhd.

Corina86
02-21-14, 06:18 PM
Could be. My dad was 38 and my mom 35 when I was born and I think I'm less functional than my older brother (he's 8 years older; although he has a lot of symptoms on ADHD, he has quite good focus so, no ADHD).

I have to mention I was born a little underweight (2.7 kg) and had lots of issues eating, which led me to gain weight and grow somewhat slower than other babies.

Also, my mother worked her whole life, including when she was pregnant with me, in a very chemically toxic environment. Workers' health wasn't very important during the communist era.

Rebelyell
02-21-14, 06:22 PM
:yes::giggle:@Testicular time bomb:yes:its the dirteey bomb babay:D.
Are your folks still alive Corina or your mom?

datajunkie
02-21-14, 08:47 PM
I suspect the genetics must be there. But identical twins have a 51% chance of being diagnosed if their twin is. I was surprised it was that low if the book I read, Driven to Distraction had the most recent data. I would have guessed around 80% for twins. I'd like to have seen age at diagnosis on that as well.

I don't know how the epigenetic tags affect a woman's eggs. Are they set when the eggs are formed early in development or do they pick up tags throughout her life? I'm fairly certain that sperm cells have different tags throughout a man's life depending on what happens to him. Could his exposure to triggers affect offspring more later in his life? Could a woman's internal environment change enough through her life to affect her body while pregnant? So even if her eggs were not changed that what her body does is impacted?

I have a tomboy streak. Not masculine looking but never played with dolls, no urge to be a mother, dislike baby humans---eeww! they scream and puke at one end and pee and poop at the other. I don't get the aww how cute response so many people do to human babies but hand me a puppy, kitten or piglet and I think they are adorable, still doesn't trigger the same maternal response although I've raised many litters of puppies while still breeding Dobermans, have had cats raise kittens 3 times and have raised hogs. The tomboy streak and lack of maternal instinct triggering appears due to a surge of testosterone at a vulnerable point in pregnancy. Similar things happen with fraternal siblings in twins or multiple births in humans and in dogs and cattle at least. Probably other mammals. In dogs, female pups in a litter of mostly males are often 'doggy *******' looking more masculine and often raising one hind leg to urinate. A repeat litter of the same parents with the sex ratio skewed to females doesn't show this, it appears enough testosterone may slide over through placental contact to affect the females.

I've read that even in adults, men are still more affected by AD/HD than women. So is my higher testosterone possibly a trigger? I'm on bioidentical hormones and need more testosterone than most women to feel like me. No facial hair, voice changes or such, I just don't have the energy and sense of well being that feel right to me on a lower dose.

Could an older mother's estrogen/progesterone skew enough to also raise the odds of children being affected?

I don't think either of my parents would have been considered AD/HD although I can see how I got some traits from each. As they aged, their traits became more noticeable. My father was a branch manager for a company most of his life--his business and social skills were acceptable but after he retired some things started to change that fit in with AD/HD symptoms. The sorts of piles on his desk and table of clutter that only have disappeared from mine since starting Ritalin. His social skills changed, interrupting, blurting out inappropriate things, decreasing ability to listen, remember, follow directions. How much is so called normal aging or perhaps traits that were always there increasing? or the balancing factors decreasing? My mother's ability to get things done that she started also got worse but more so she simply no longer started doing things.

I'm getting off topic here but at least in this forum, that may seem more understandable. :) But what if parents age could increase the odds of children having AD/HD? Would there be some way for future parents in time to be able to offset those risks?

My sweetheart and I both had our 23andme genetic testing done. Both of us homozygous for one known risk factor of AD/HD. He doesn't show AD/HD negative symptoms but does have the same drive for information, novelty, stimulus and can overfocus when on the trail of a story--retired tv news director. He seems to have gotten the good stuff and not the bad stuff. Former heavy drinker and did smoke cigarettes also as did both parents. His ex-wife has some of the traits including a high need for adrenaline but instead of getting it from activities such as novelty, drives herself at work by letting things build up close to deadline and by having emotional storms. Not a criticism, she and I have become friends and they stayed amiable after splitting. I'm getting down to their kids. She was in her mid 30's and he was in his early 40's when they were born. Daughter shows quite a few AD/HD traits but also had heart problems when born and brain damaged enough not expected to graduate from high school. Managed to graduate from college cum laude and has been successful at work. But has truly horrid emotional storms that lash out at family members and can't stop talking. Hasn't had a boyfriend for 3 years as none can stand the storms no matter how charming and pretty she is. But she can't get out of bed on weekends either. Son is truly brilliant but dropped out of college when courses started getting challenging enough that he couldn't breeze through. Also either a slug who can't get started or has the same piles of projects cluttering the place. And also storms with family. Perhaps their parents age put them more at risk also?

Corina86
02-22-14, 05:18 AM
:yes::giggle:@Testicular time bomb:yes:its the dirteey bomb babay:D.
Are your folks still alive Corina or your mom?

Yes, they're both alive luckily. Why do you ask?

@DataJunkie, I doubt that it's testosterone which makes ADHD worse. I've never been a tomboy, I've been weird my whole life, but I liked plenty of girlie stuff. I also had my testosterone checked and it's normal, but almost at the lower limit. Plus, I know females who are tomboys or have high testosterone and have no ADHD traits whatsoever.

Baal Moom
02-22-14, 05:24 AM
Parents were 20. Was born 4.5 kg, right on time. Started speaking aged 8 months. Have no physical disabilities and have never been seriously ill. Can't organise myself to exit the house most of time and may act and speak like the Green Hulk.

Perhaps "older sperm" may be a risk factor, but it probably isn't a prerequisite. Now I have to go, because I've had a sleepless night. Again.

EDIT: Though I was born 5 years after Chernobyl, about 800 km away... They say the leaves used to grow exceptionally large right after the accident.

Abi
02-22-14, 05:29 AM
My parents were also old f+++s when I was born - mum 36 dad 39.

I was late (procrastinating? :)) and eventually ended up in some sort of distress over a week past my due date and was delivered by emerg. Caesarian.

erratic
02-22-14, 07:15 AM
As well I am the youngest of 3 and exhibit the most ADHD symptoms.

datajunkie
02-22-14, 09:51 AM
I'm seeing quite a few C sections here and have read that this is a risk factor. Unknown if it is whatever led up to the C section causing trauma, the chemical exposure to anesthesia and also possibly some evidence that AD/HD and autism may be higher in C section children due to less exposure to oxytocin. Oxytocin exposure during delivery appears to affect chloride channels and may prime some body systems for normal behavior. Lower exposure during a C section may prevent this from happening. This is being examined more for autism.

So much to learn and only one lifetime!

Rebelyell
02-22-14, 10:24 AM
Cause you had said your mom worked in a very toxic environment.

Corina86
02-23-14, 06:18 AM
Cause you had said your mom worked in a very toxic environment.

She she some health issues, the worst being (HCM), but all of them are genetic or caused by other factors. None of her colleagues have any illnesses than could be linked to toxicity either.

Amtram
02-23-14, 08:58 PM
I would imagine that sperm cells have the exact same problems in replication that all human cells have in the aging process. Egg cells have already been formed in the ovaries, they simply mature and are released once a month - but sperm cells need to be re-manufactured all the time, so they would be more subject to epigenetic changes resulting from age than ova would be.

mildadhd
02-24-14, 12:05 AM
It would be interesting to see a poll on the subject in question.

(There seems to be more than one exact way to "acquire" ADHD, than my own personal experiences.)

My biological father was a young adult, when I was conceived.

So I don't think the father's age has anything to do with my ADD.

But that doesn't rule out testosterone and/or the level of testosterone, as some part of the multiple factors, that may be in someway involved?









Laymans

Corina86
02-24-14, 06:08 AM
I read somewhere (I can't remember where) that ADHD might be more frequent in those who were born prematurely or underweight (can't remember which one it was). Also, ADHD parents might wait longer to have kids because they they have more difficulties finding and keeping a good mate, becoming financially stable or because they want to work out other mental/emotional issues before reproducing. Or, as Abi said, they're just procrastinating :).

Rebelyell
02-24-14, 09:01 AM
I have all them issues but I wont have to worry bout my kids having 3 heads or adhd cause I don't think I'm ever gonna have kids at this point in my life.

Amtram
02-24-14, 10:26 AM
It's really not an indicator. All these studies are saying (if you read the studies themselves) is that there seems to be a higher rate of incidence in cases where the father is older. This in no way implies that a father's age is a determining factor in heritability. It's simply another correlation that may or may not turn out to have any significance. If it were an actual cause, then there would be a clear indication - i.e., the overwhelming majority of people with (insert neurobiological condition here) would have older fathers, and there would be almost no people with (neurobiological condition) with younger fathers. Obviously, that's not the case.

It's entirely likely that whatever genetic contributions that meiosis produces in new sperm in older men contains more of some genes than in others because some are more genetically robust. These men might have the genetic components for whatever condition is being studied right from the start, and simply pass it on to the children they have when they're younger less frequently or in a recessive form. I haven't seen anything that compares the genetics of the children of older men with the genetics of the children they had when they were younger, so this idea is kind of an apples-to-oranges comparison.

datajunkie
02-24-14, 11:06 AM
25 years of dog breeding gave me an impetus to read quite a bit on genetics and behaior as well as form. Most behavioral traits, good and bad, are not single genes but due to multiple gene combinations as well as epigenetic factors of expression.

The article linked indicated that in older men, the cells that produce sperm with gene variants linked to specific abnormalities increased in number over time. Not necessarily that the older cells were producing new variants. While this may be mostly inherited, if only 51% of identical twins are dx'd when the other is, some environmental factor seems most probable for either triggering the symptoms or preventing counterbalancing genes from triggering. My sweetheart has the ability to overfocus intensely which for his career in running a tv newsroom was very useful but he lacks my distractibility and procrastination. Did he get some genes I simply don't have for the latter or did mine get turned off wrongly or did his get turned on correctly? Genetics and epigenetics plus copy number variations where there may be missing genes or extra genes besides the usual pair stacked up on one spot and which gets activated may vary.

In my case, it was not that my parents tried to delay having children. My sister is 10 years older and born almost exactly 9 months after they married. But it took another 10 years to have a second child. Long before the pill and when good Catholics found even the rhythm method barely acceptable so no intent to delay.

If boys are more likely to have symptoms, I do think that in some women, higher T levels at a certain point in gestation or early development may be a factors. Freemartin heifers that are twins to male calves are usually sterile but not always. The exposure to their twins testosterone triggers some behavioral and physical changes MOST of the time but not always.

Finding such details and making any correlation useful isn't easy. But discussing some health issues in large forums has turned up a few things that overlap enough to have at least in one case lead to a research grant on the overlap of hypothyroidism, POTS--postural orthostatic tachycarida syndrome and a similar one, MVPS, mitral valve prolapse syndrome, both of which are issues of blood pressure and heart rate and a common overlap with some degree of collagen disorders including Ehler Danlos syndrome. And a common link may be methylating factors. It turned out on one POTS forum where a number of members had been on a thyroid forum, we started to see a number of people discussing other symptoms of joint hypermobility common to MVPS and EDS. A quick poll indicated close to half who responded had overlap. One member was on a POTS research board and found enough already known hard data of some linkage to successfully get a grant.

Amtram
02-24-14, 02:13 PM
You're right that reductionist thinking is incompatible with genetics (http://www.wiringthebrain.com/2014/02/reductionism-determinism-straw-man-ism.html?showComment=1393255550757#c42113908336557 76949).

mildadhd
02-24-14, 03:14 PM
I think people are right, if they are saying we should look at all the scientific data available.

All the different shapes and pieces of the individual puzzles, with similar pictures.











i!i

Lunacie
02-24-14, 04:03 PM
I think people are right, if they are saying we should look at all the scientific data available.

All the different shapes and pieces of the individual puzzles, with similar pictures.

i!i

And sort through the puzzle pieces and see which ones fit together. They don't all fit.

mildadhd
02-24-14, 05:15 PM
And sort through the puzzle pieces and see which ones fit together. They don't all fit.

Similar puzzles pictures, might not all have the exact same shapes/pieces.

Your puzzle and your pieces might be slightly different than my puzzle and my pieces.



i!i

mildadhd
02-24-14, 05:17 PM
I can say for sure, that there is more than one piece to my puzzle.

And no single piece makes an entire puzzle.


i!i

mildadhd
02-24-14, 06:40 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXz2Fj67mPM

Amtram
02-25-14, 12:03 PM
Well, in this case, the puzzle piece is clearly genetic, since only genetic material is contained in a sperm cell. Therefore, any paternal influence on the children would come from genes. Age is an epigenetic factor that alters gene expression in the form of flawed cell reproduction - that's why our hair turns grey and our skin sags and our organs start working less efficiently. Sperm cells are constantly being produced, and are going to be subject to the same deterioration in quality as any other cell in the body - the most obvious thing we see is a reduction in motility - so it's completely plausible that they might not be the best sperm in the world for baby-making when it comes to lots of things.

mildadhd
02-25-14, 04:08 PM
Well, in this case, the puzzle piece is clearly genetic, since only genetic material is contained in a sperm cell. Therefore, any paternal influence on the children would come from genes. Age is an epigenetic factor that alters gene expression in the form of flawed cell reproduction - that's why our hair turns grey and our skin sags and our organs start working less efficiently. Sperm cells are constantly being produced, and are going to be subject to the same deterioration in quality as any other cell in the body - the most obvious thing we see is a reduction in motility - so it's completely plausible that they might not be the best sperm in the world for baby-making when it comes to lots of things.

I'm trying to imagine, trying to solve a puzzle with only one piece.

But I am sorry, I can not.





i!i

Lunacie
02-25-14, 04:30 PM
I'm trying to imagine, trying to solve a puzzle with only one piece.

But I am sorry, I can not.





i!i

You start with one piece, the sperm/genes from the father.

That piece joins with another piece, the egg/genes from the mother.

When you talk about starting from the bottom up ... this seems to be a good way to imagine that.

Amtram
02-25-14, 05:00 PM
Some things you study from the bottom up, some things you study from top down. It doesn't mean that one way is better than the other. Saying so is like saying a screwdriver is better than a hammer. No, they're just different tools used for different projects. When you're talking about anything regarding sperm, you're talking about genetic contributions, so it's kind of pointless to ignore genetics.

mildadhd
02-25-14, 05:04 PM
You start with one piece, the sperm/genes from the father.

That piece joins with another piece, the egg/genes from the mother.

When you talk about starting from the bottom up ... this seems to be a good way to imagine that.

Are you saying genes are the only pieces to the puzzle?



i!i

Conman
02-25-14, 05:19 PM
my mom's older than my dad but only by a few years. and it's my mom's side that's loaded with ADD and other stuff. my dad's side is the most straight-laced by the books people i know

mildadhd
02-25-14, 05:22 PM
Some things you study from the bottom up, some things you study from top down. It doesn't mean that one way is better than the other. Saying so is like saying a screwdriver is better than a hammer. No, they're just different tools used for different projects. When you're talking about anything regarding sperm, you're talking about genetic contributions, so it's kind of pointless to ignore genetics.


I have no problem saying genes are pieces of the puzzle.

It appears like you are saying, they are the only pieces of the puzzle?



Side Note: I don't think I referred to ground up or top down in this thread, but anyway..

I have no problem studying things from both the ground up, and top down.

It appears like you are saying the brain works only from the top down?








i!i

Amtram
02-25-14, 10:18 PM
No, it would be a great stretch of the imagination to assume I am saying either of those things. This study is about older sperm, which means it's about the dad's genetic contribution, which means it's about genetics, which means that bringing in elements other than genetics is off-topic and muddies the waters discussion-wise.

This study is looking at one piece of a particular puzzle, which is the way all good science is done. Before you start putting the puzzle together, you need to find whether the pieces even belong. In this case, the question is "does older sperm produce more children with neurobiological disorders?" If the answer is yes, then it's worth asking more questions. If the answer is no, then you move on to something else. And that question has nothing to do with anything else but whether the age of the father influences the genetic contribution of his sperm, so trying to connect it to other pieces before it's been discovered whether this is a piece that belongs in the puzzle in the first place is pretty pointless.

And, BTW, the brain happens to be a bottom-up system, as evidenced by the fact that identical synapses and neurons perform different functions depending on where they are in the brain. A system that takes basic components and adapts them for different functions is inherently a bottom-up system. So looking for a "piece of the puzzle" is the right tool for the job.

Amtram
02-25-14, 10:22 PM
Just realized I have to clarify that - obviously the brain has processes that are both top-down and bottom-up. The structure, however, which is what would be affected by genes, is built from the bottom up. Sorry for the confusion.

mildadhd
02-25-14, 11:19 PM
If boys are more likely to have symptoms, I do think that in some women, higher T levels at a certain point in gestation or early development may be a factors. Freemartin heifers that are twins to male calves are usually sterile but not always. The exposure to their twins testosterone triggers some behavioral and physical changes MOST of the time but not always.

Finding such details and making any correlation useful isn't easy. But discussing some health issues in large forums has turned up a few things that overlap enough to have at least in one case lead to a research grant on the overlap of hypothyroidism, POTS--postural orthostatic tachycarida syndrome and a similar one, MVPS, mitral valve prolapse syndrome, both of which are issues of blood pressure and heart rate and a common overlap with some degree of collagen disorders including Ehler Danlos syndrome. And a common link may be methylating factors. It turned out on one POTS forum where a number of members had been on a thyroid forum, we started to see a number of people discussing other symptoms of joint hypermobility common to MVPS and EDS. A quick poll indicated close to half who responded had overlap. One member was on a POTS research board and found enough already known hard data of some linkage to successfully get a grant.


DataJunkie

Thanks for introducing to the ideas associated with the Freemartin heifers, I am learning a lot.

I was discussing testosterone levels, with a good friend of mine, and my friend mentioned the word progestorone.

There is so many factors to explore in the search for "parts".


I'm not making any conclusions what so ever, in a fun way for learning, I find the wiki information below very interesting because a lot of people with ADHD type symptoms self medicate with alcohol, nicotine, cannabis, cocaine...





Complex stuff.



Effects of Progesterone on Nicotine and Cocaine Addiction

Progesterone inhibits the enzyme monoamine oxidase (MAO) which is responsible for breaking down serotonin, the “feel good” neurotransmitter.

In addition, progesterone enhances the serotonin receptor function in the brain, so too much or too little progesterone can cause significant problems on brain chemistry.

This explains why people resort to substances that enhance serotonin activity such as nicotine, alcohol, and marijuana when their progesterone levels fall below optimal levels.[29]

To examine the effects of progesterone on nicotine addiction specifically, one study researched the reinforcing effects of smoking in both men and women addicted to nicotine.

Participants were either treated orally with a progesterone treatment, or treated with a placebo.

When treated with progesterone, participants exhibited enhanced suppression of smoking urges, reported higher ratings of “bad effects” from IV nicotine, and reported lower ratings of “drug liking”.

These results suggest that progesterone not only alters the subjective effects of nicotine, but reduces the urge to smoke cigarettes.[30]


Further studies demonstrated sex differences such that changes in hormone levels may induce women to respond differently than men to nicotine.

When women undergo cyclic changes or different hormonal transition phases (menopause, pregnancy, adolescence), there are changes in their progesterone levels.
[31]

Therefore, females have an increased biological vulnerability to nicotine’s reinforcing effects compared to men and progesterone may be used to counter this enhanced vulnerability.

This information helps us to understand how the female hormones profoundly impact brain functioning, and, thus behavior.[29]

Furthermore, interestingly, past research suggests possible effects of progesterone on cocaine addiction.

Similar to nicotine, cocaine also increases the release of dopamine in the brain.

The neurotransmitter is involved in the reward center and is one of the main neurotransmitters involved with substance abuse and reliance.

In a study of cocaine users, it was reported that progesterone reduced craving and the feeling of being stimulated by cocaine.

Thus, progesterone was suggested as an agent that decreases cocaine craving by reducing the dopaminergic properties of the drug.[32]

Lunacie
02-26-14, 12:06 AM
Peripheral, could you please explain what the heck that had to do with the posted topic (aging sperm)?

mildadhd
02-26-14, 02:41 AM
Peripheral, could you please explain what the heck that had to do with the posted topic (aging sperm)?

Did you read the post quote I was replying to?

i!i

Lunacie
02-26-14, 11:05 AM
datajunkie's post was at least tangenital to the posted topic,

discussing possible changes to the fetus when the mother has high levels of testosterone,

which is associated mainly with men.

And further, that in the case of male/female twins, the male of the pair may affect

the female fetus by the presence of his own testerone.



I don't see any connection between that and your quote on

the Effects of Progesterone on Nicotine and Cocaine Addiction.

This thread is not about progesterone or any type of addiction.
:scratch:

datajunkie
02-26-14, 11:45 AM
datajunkie's post was at least tangenital to the posted topic,

discussing possible changes to the fetus when the mother has high levels of testosterone,

which is associated mainly with men.

And further, that in the case of male/female twins, the male of the pair may affect

the female fetus by the presence of his own testerone.



I don't see any connection between that and your quote on

the Effects of Progesterone on Nicotine and Cocaine Addiction.

This thread is not about progesterone or any type of addiction.
:scratch:
The thread has wandered a bit yet the progesterone does tie in with the effects of hormones on cognition. If my early exposure to a surge of T had any effect on my AD/HD, possibly my mother's other hormones may have also skewed me, either solo or in concert as I can't tolerate progesterone supplementation at this time.

We may want a new thread on this but let me toss out some bits here. I was fortunate to almost never have PMS once past my early teens. Hitting menopause was a shock as I felt my body and brain were fighting a battle. The scene in Dr. Strangelove with the hand acting on its own sort of thing.

At that time I had my hormones tested, had decent estrogen and testosterone but elevated cortisol and low progesterone. Had some bad stress going on with truly terrible neighbors eventually evicted after several lawsuits with those around them and their landlord.

Bioidentical progesterone at that time helped my over arousal. Once the stress resolved, it started to act like a heavy dose of valium. I stopped it and it took about 2 weeks to clear my system. Driving and balance impaired during that time, slowed reflexes, I felt drugged.

Fast forward several years to full menopause, doctors with more experience in balancing hormones, changes in my hormones so I started both estrogen and testosterone. Using P to balance the estrogen--bioidentical not the same risks as horse **** estrogen which is quite different than humans, but the P again was making me sedated. Stopping it did not give me symptoms of estrogen dominance. What little P my body has gets a lot of mileage. It took me about 2 more years to find a bit of info that yes, some women convert P into a metabolite that works on GABAA receptors and does give the net effect of a hefty dose of valium which works on the GABA system.

Possibly when my body was still making some P, wish I had a baseline of my hormones then, it was acting enough like a natural tranquilizer to counter the drop in E when most women would have PMS. With a number of women reporting more AD/HD symptoms at times in their cycle, the influence of sex hormones on AD/HD doesn't seem clear yet. A number of women not diagnosed until peri/post menopause makes me wonder how much hormones kept symptoms in check until normal aging uncovered the vulnerability.

One of my first realizations that something was changed was that I was having trouble reading books that I enjoyed. A lifelong reading addict, up until perhaps 3-4 years ago, anything I was interested in reading, I could read non-stop as time permitted. Trying to break off was the problem. This seems to be improving again. Nodding off to sleep when I had a book I did enjoy or having to re-read it as I lost track was different. Common with stuff I found dull like math or economics but not for biology or a fictional story I enjoyed.

My cortisol and thyroid hormones also have a big effect on my mood and cognition as well as energy.

As these can change with age, and I saw my parents, both of whom I suspect had some sub clinical symptoms lifelong and showed sharp increases with age, perhaps their hormonal changes influenced this? AD/HD in the aging population doesn't seem well studied yet but treating it may help many cope with slowed reflexes, slowed thinking, driving skills, balance, exercise and more.

Probably time to take this to a new thread or several. Effects of aging on low grade or subclinical symptoms as well as effects of hormones during gestation and life stages? Might also be interesting to see how many AD/HD'ers have some degree of mosaicism, having cells from either a previous embryo--some cells can circulate in the mother's body for quite a while and embed in another embryo or from a twin that was absorbed. Could I have some cells from a male sibling?

Lunacie
02-26-14, 12:06 PM
@datajunkie, I didn't have a problem with your post on female hormones.

I didn't follow Peripheral's jump from that to the topic of addiction.

datajunkie
02-26-14, 12:40 PM
@datajunkie, I didn't have a problem with your post on female hormones.

I didn't follow Peripheral's jump from that to the topic of addiction.

ah, with my experience of P being so sedating it made sense to me that fluctuating hormones could cause discomfort that people try to self medicate for with various addictions. Perhaps one way to view PMS in some women is withdrawal from the sedation of P?

Lunacie
02-26-14, 12:47 PM
ah, with my experience of P being so sedating it made sense to me that fluctuating hormones could cause discomfort that people try to self medicate for with various addictions. Perhaps one way to view PMS in some women is withdrawal from the sedation of P?

Yes but ... what the heck does that have to do with whether aging sperm (or ovum)

increases the risk of offspring having mental health disorders?

I fear my effort to understand this derailment may be derailing the thread even further.

Is it too late to get back to the topic?

datajunkie
02-26-14, 01:20 PM
Yes but ... what the heck does that have to do with whether aging sperm (or ovum)

increases the risk of offspring having mental health disorders?

I fear my effort to understand this derailment may be derailing the thread even further.

Is it too late to get back to the topic?

The topic may have reached the end of its usefulness. I find such meanderings to be the MOST USEFUL aspect of my AD/HD traits as these seemingly unrelated bits that turn up often are connected. A few friends in diverse fields that overlap my interests have commented I have encyclopedic traits. I can 'index' how P might be related to behavior and influence cortisol which affects other behaviors. Such meanderings gave me connections to see how my MVPS symptoms are linked to joint hypermobility due to irregularities of collagen production make my blood vessels expand so easily that blood pools in my abdomen depriving my brain which shoots adrenaline/noradrenaline to raise blood pressure so I can think and move. A number of people with MVPS symptoms report improving with AD/HD meds or meds that stabilize adrenaline levels. This tidbit started me on the trail of info digging that has resulted with me deciding to try a stimulant.

Some traits have a direct effect and some are biomarkers that help point to an issue but not affecting it. In dogs, many with a lot of white around the hears are deaf. This is due to pigment cells being produced along the central part of the back/spine and moving outward on the skin about the same time that pigment needed for nerve cells to transmit signals is being laid down in the nerves going to the ears. There are similar things such a hair whorls on the faces of horses and cattle indicating a greater or lesser reactivation to stimuli, I don't recall whether it was the whorls being above or below the eyes but one indicated a change in the brain or nerves. The highly reactive animals can be harder to handle, more likely to panic.

For a long time, trainers and handlers had been aware of such but told it was 'old wives tales' until the physical reasons were understood. As a redhead, I don't have as much pigment on my pain nerves as most. Redheads often need more anesthesia than other types of pigment. Had an anesthesiologist tell me of this about 30 years ago. they knew it but not why, that was discovered maybe 10 years ago.

So such meanderings to me are fun and useful. My favorite tv show of all time was "Connections" :)

Rebelyell
02-26-14, 01:31 PM
Lol @ the mental image of sad saggy sack pops:p

mildadhd
02-26-14, 02:32 PM
(part of the Wiki quote about progesterone).. interestingly, past research suggests possible effects of progesterone on cocaine addiction.

Similar to nicotine, cocaine also increases the release of dopamine in the brain.

The neurotransmitter is involved in the reward center and is one of the main neurotransmitters involved with substance abuse and reliance.

In a study of cocaine users, it was reported that progesterone reduced craving and the feeling of being stimulated by cocaine.

Thus, progesterone was suggested as an agent that decreases cocaine craving by reducing the dopaminergic properties of the drug.[32]


Lunacie,

Have you ever heard of dopamine being associated with ADHD?

Cocaine, alchohol, cannabis, nicotine are all associated with dopamine neurotransmitters.

If the wiki link is correct? progesterone may decrease "cocaine craving by reducing the dopaminergic properties of the drug"

I was wondering during "low" progesterone levels, would cocaine craving increase. etc.


I thought that DataJunkie OP was about more than just testicle genes, and I still think that this thread is on topic.

There is lots of more information, some very complex, that I would like to add, and compare,connect , consider... related to this discussion when I understand the information better.

Associating the behavior with the actual neural mechanisms envolved in the behavior, is much more accurate, than not.

Understanding the neural mechanisms associated with the type of addiction, the personal preference/drug of choice, may help understand about the individuals brain/circumstances.

Example, People with ADHD may self medicate with substances like cocaine, nicotine, crystal meth, cannabis, alcohol, etc. because they raise dopamine.

Some people who use these substances use them because they are ADHD.


Hormones seem to have some types of ying yang social behavioral effects, (for a lack of better words) depending on if the person is male or female.

Layman example,

If woman have more oxytocin, than men.

If I remember correctly, oxytocin releaves distress. and maybe oxytocin partly protects women against distress, more than men. (concerning oxytocin)

If men have less oxytocin, but they also have higher levels of other hormones, that may help explain differences in social-behavior, etc.

This is a just simple layman example, it is all much more complex.

I hope this makes some sense, trying to learn, please leave lots room for error.

(There are no conclusion, in these questions)

I'm feeling unfocused and might take some time away from these complex discussions.



I want to thank the people involved in these discussions, looking forward to discusing the topics more when I learn more and feel more confident.








Peripherals Laymans

Lunacie
02-26-14, 02:55 PM
Lunacie,

Have you ever heard of dopamine being associated with ADHD?

Cocaine, alchohol, cannabis, nicotine are all associated with dopamine neurotransmitters.

If the wiki link is correct? progesterone may decrease "cocaine craving by reducing the dopaminergic properties of the drug"

I was wondering during "low" progesterone levels, would cocaine craving increase. etc.
>>

Peripherals Laymans

But the topic is about the condition of the sperm and then the ovum and what effect that has on the fetus.

Cravings and addictions have no connection to that topic, as far as I can see.

mildadhd
02-26-14, 03:10 PM
I already explained that I was replying to DataJunkies quote. (see the posts)

Not sure what else to say.

I'll do some people a favor and I will go away for a while.


Side Note # 1 If only such specific inquiry was sought about the SEEKING system and the other 6 primary basic emotional behavioral systems and ADHD, as testicle genes and ADHD.

Side Note #2 It was nice to meet you DataJunkie, love the name, I hope I connect with you and other interested members again, in future discussions, really fun learning.





Peripherals

Lunacie
02-26-14, 03:48 PM
I already explained that I was replying to DataJunkies quote. (see the posts)

Not sure what else to say.

I'll do some people a favor and I will go away for a while.


Side Note # 1 If only such specific inquiry was sought about the SEEKING system and the other 6 primary basic emotional behavioral systems and ADHD, as testicle genes and ADHD.

Side Note #2 It was nice to meet you DataJunkie, love the name, I hope I connect with you and other interested members again, in future discussions, really fun learning.


Peripherals

But as I explained, the post you quoted by datajunkie didn't have anything to do with addiction.

I can't think of anything else to say to explain this either.

Stalemate? Dead end?

Sorry datajunkie, this was an interesting topic to explore.

Conman
02-26-14, 04:29 PM
i also ****** on the doctor when i got taken out of the womb, so i clearly was hyper and didnt give a **** since ive existed.

my mom's side actually has alot of genetic things along with the genetic ties for ADD in her family that im at a predisposed for. both physical conditions and mental ones. but only one has my doctor said im strongly predisposed to tho: migraines cuz mom's side gets them, once a month for mom and my brother has had 2 in his life). but literally my mom is, around 4 or 5 of her siblings are ADD and my grandpa is most likely ADD as well. im just the lucky ******* who gets to be ADHD

Amtram
02-26-14, 06:07 PM
Well, you know, a lot of this has absolutely nothing to do with the article linked in the OP, which quite specifically explains the genetic mutations in sperm that led to a particular condition in the offspring of older dads, and why their age led to more sperm with this genetic mutation being produced. So pretty much anything besides genetic changes in sperm contributing to heritable genetic conditions in offspring is kind of off-topic.

If you read the article, the entire concept is pretty clearly explained and straightforward, and demonstrates one method of tracing back what might cause genetic mutations in children - and why maybe fathers should be a little more circumspect about impregnating women once they get past a certain age. If you don't read the article, then you're probably missing the point.

datajunkie
02-26-14, 06:48 PM
Amtram,
for me, one of the intriguing parts was that with age, the spermatigonium producing the mutation changed in a way to produce more sperm cells than normal, skewing the odds higher simply by skewing the number of sperm they produced up compared to normal cells. And that this might be a trait linked with our producing more brain cells than closely related primates.

The offshoot comments to me are not distracting and as I tried to indicate, often useful to me. The article mentioned one way age affects inheritance. I was fishing for other possible factors such as changing hormone levels that might be linked to AD/HD. Those can change with age. To bring it all together, a quick search turned up this. http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa26.htm alcohol can skew reproductive hormones. And nicotine on ACTH and lutenizing hormones http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19835877 ACTH can affect cortisol levels and that can affect epigenetic response to offspring and stress. So I can see that possibly older parents with some degree of addiction may be skewing hormones in a manner leading to more AD/HD or simply exposure to second hand smoke directly affecting mutations or developmental stages.

I was fishing for multiple ideas on how older parents might increase the odds. There may be an increase of risk and we've covered quite a few possible paths. Fun for me!

Amtram
02-26-14, 08:46 PM
The biggest problem I have with these accounts is that they are reported as potentially causative factors - but no evidence is prevented that supports the idea of causation. With causation, increase in proposed causative factor results in increase of outcome. Decrease in proposed causative factor results in decrease of outcome. Causative factor is absent in the majority of negative of outcome, present in the majority of positive of outcome.

Unless one can show that the majority of people diagnosed with ADHD have a particular factor in common, it's presumptuous to claim that said factor is a cause of ADHD. Older sperm may have a higher vulnerability to mutation, but unless you can find a direct connection between a specific mutation that exists in significantly higher amounts in the sperm of men over a certain age and that same genetic mutation in affected offspring (but not in unaffected offspring) then you don't really have the basis for a conclusion of cause and effect.

mildadhd
02-26-14, 10:31 PM
But as I explained, the post you quoted by datajunkie didn't have anything to do with addiction.

I can't think of anything else to say to explain this either.

Stalemate? Dead end?

Sorry datajunkie, this was an interesting topic to explore.


Lunacie,

It's not like I plan an arsenal of information, looking to find someone to argue, blame and find fault with.

If you and Amtram want to discuss genes go ahead.

I don't mind, I learn from you both.

I am just not getting your drift?

Here is my interpretation, I was reading this thread and I got to post #9, and I loved the energy.

I was replying to the author of the thread, with a very extra enthusiastic SEEKING system, and fun of the PLAY system.

(it probably took me an hour or so to reply to DataJunkie.

All ready to promote development with considerations.

The author of the thread liking the discussion...

Is discussing hormones that in part interact with testosterone, not close enough to testicular?

I think the older women ovaries also have testosterone as well?

Is the hormone testostermone that I think comes from the testicles, really that off topic?

Aren't neurotransmitters sometimes considered hormones, in some circumstances (let me get back to you on that one, but I think so?) (anybody?)

What am I missing?

I got in a discussion about a puzzle, with only one piece. :scratch:

I think someone called the part of construcductionism?

But I can't picture a one piece puzzle, to me a puzzle requires a relationship between at least, 2 puzzle pieces.

No relationship, no puzzle.(in my opinion)

Putting the pieces together, also helps develop hand eye coordination.

Side Note: I am curious to know, what the picture looks like on the puzzle box, that the "single piece puzzle" came in.



Now is that on thread topic or what?



Peripherals Laymans

Lunacie
02-26-14, 11:00 PM
Lunacie,

It's not like I plan an arsenal of information, looking to find someone to argue with.

If you and Amtram want to discuss genes go ahead.

I don't mind, I learn from you both.

I am just not getting your drift?

Here is my interpretation, I was reading this thread and I got to post #9, and I loved the energy.

I was replying to the author of the thread, with a very extra enthusiastic SEEKING system, and fun of the PLAY system.

(it probably took me an hour or so to reply to DataJunkie.

All ready to promote development with considerations.

The author of the thread liking the discussion...

Is discussing hormones that in part interact with testosterone, not close enough to testicular?

Is hormones like testostermone that I think comes from the testicles, really that off topic?

What am I missing?

I got in a discussion about a puzzle, with only one piece. :scratch:

I think someone called the part of construcductionism?

But I can't picture a one piece puzzle, a puzzle requires a relationship between at least, 2 puzzle pieces.

No relationship, no puzzle.(in my opinion)

Putting the pieces together, also helps develop hand eye cowardination.

Side Note: I am curious to know, what the picture looks like on the puzzle box, the puzzle with the "single piece puzzle", of came in.



Now is that on thread topic or what?



Peripherals Laymans

Apparently you are not getting the drift.

No one said it's a puzzle with only one piece.

We can learn a lot by looking at one particular piece of the puzzle.



I was very interested in the way this thread began,

and I was disappointed when it changed direction.

If you had been discussing how progesterone interacts with testosterone

in babies born to aging parents, that would have furthered the posted topic.

Posting information about how progesterone may be linked to increased addiction,

not so much.


In the end, this is datajunkies thread, and if she likes the new direction, I'll bow out.

mildadhd
02-26-14, 11:05 PM
"last word". LOL

Now there is an interesting topic.





i!i

mildadhd
02-26-14, 11:36 PM
Posting information about how progesterone may be linked to increased addiction,

not so much.

I was having a discussion about multiple parts involved.

Example:

People with a mental health problem like severe ADHD, who are unaware they have severe ADHD, and are self medicating everyday with a substance.

If daily the person's progesterone level is "to low", would the person with ADHD crave the substance self medicating with, more daily? (is a question)



And if the person's progesterone level was higher, would the same person with ADHD crave the substance less? (is another question)


I think they are pretty good questions.

I am asking questions about possibly helping people who self medicate with ADHD?

Hormones levels might change as we age, making cravings more (or less).(Another question)

Maybe that is how people partly grow out of ADHD sometimes? (another question)

Maybe age related changes in hormones (and possibly other connections involved I never learned yet.)


Laymans

datajunkie
02-27-14, 12:35 AM
The biggest problem I have with these accounts is that they are reported as potentially causative factors - but no evidence is prevented that supports the idea of causation. With causation, increase in proposed causative factor results in increase of outcome. Decrease in proposed causative factor results in decrease of outcome. Causative factor is absent in the majority of negative of outcome, present in the majority of positive of outcome.

Unless one can show that the majority of people diagnosed with ADHD have a particular factor in common, it's presumptuous to claim that said factor is a cause of ADHD. Older sperm may have a higher vulnerability to mutation, but unless you can find a direct connection between a specific mutation that exists in significantly higher amounts in the sperm of men over a certain age and that same genetic mutation in affected offspring (but not in unaffected offspring) then you don't really have the basis for a conclusion of cause and effect.

Sorry, you don't understand genetics nor epigenetics. If you think everyone with AD/HD needs to have the same genetic factor you are wrong. Genetics isn't one gene does one thing but many genes interacting with feedback from the body to regulate various components. Most behavioral traits are polygenic, requiring multiple genes to be present and may express within a range depending on which gene variants are there, which are dominant, recessive, partially dominant, if hetero or homozygous and what the epigenetic triggers are.

In Belyaev's fur fox experiment, silver foxes bred in captivity for generations were still wild enough to be difficult to handle. Belyaev hoped to breed foxes easier to handle. Using ONLY 1 criteria, to breed the foxes least avoidant of the human handlers to other unrelated foxes least avoidant of handlers, within 7 generations, they had a strain of foxes that were good pets. Barked like dogs, wagged tails, friendly and totally worthless for the fur trade as they had black and white coats with wavy fur. The changes to the adrenal system were a big part of the friendly nature, less reactive. There were no new genes introduced, only subsets of the current gene pool with the usual random and minor mutations. The changes had to do with the timing of various stages of development. Most of these physical and behavioral traits are neotenous--baby traits carried into adulthood.

If a gene has a chance of increasing the odds of AD/HD, other genes may be modifiers determining the subtype and degree of expression. These modifiers may depend on some degree of exposure to a trigger or one of multiple triggers. So nicotine, DDT, tylenol, other endocrine disruptors or a virus may all affect an epigenetic trigger but perhaps to a different degree and may also affect other triggers that affect another aspect of AD/HD to a different degree. The same environmental triggers acting on different DNA can have very different effects. Add in copy number variations and random X inactivation and the flavor of the soup made with the same ingredients will be substantially altered. Roast the garlic and toast the cumin seeds and the flavor will change compared to tossing fresh garlic and ground cumin from a jar.

Amtram
02-27-14, 10:58 AM
Actually, datajunkie, I do, and I agree with you. The point I was trying to make was in part that ADHD is not a monogenic condition. However, if you're going to argue that a gene is responsible for something, then you need to show more evidence than just the presence or absence of that gene in a polygenic condition. The original article was looking at a gene with a specific outcome, but journalists everywhere were like ants at a picnic on this - "Oooh, older sperm causes this disorder that has a symptom like these other conditions, that must mean that older sperm causes all the other conditions that have this same symptom!!!111oneoneone"

(And I loved the silver fox experiment, and wonder why, then, my black cats have always been so much friendlier than the white ones?)

As I began reading up on the NIH's Research Documentation Criteria, I got to liking it more and more. Associating specific genes with much narrower outcomes and studying individual components of a complex condition makes so much more sense than looking for something that causes the whole thing. However, lots of people are thoroughly wedded to the idea that there's a nice, neat, simple solution, and news reports that inflate the value of narrowly specific findings don't help.

This report demonstrated one specific thing - this gene that caused problems became more prevalent in the genetic material in sperm cells as a man aged. The broadest thing that this showed outside of that specific data is that, yes, the genetic information in older men's sperm can indeed be different from the genetic information in the sperm they created when they were younger. It does not prove that (fill in the blank) is caused by older sperm. You'd need to do a different study on (fill in the blank) to demonstrate that.

erratic
03-01-14, 03:24 AM
Someone might have posted this on here by now but I heard this yesterday on a TED talk.

The speaker said that after around one week of sperm retention, the sperm cells begin to start showing signs of developmental abnormalities.- or something along these lines.

Lunacie
03-01-14, 11:28 AM
Someone might have posted this on here by now but I heard this yesterday on a TED talk.

The speaker said that after around one week of sperm retention, the sperm cells begin to start showing signs of developmental abnormalities.- or something along these lines.

Thereby causing a double threat for an older man, eh?

Amtram
03-01-14, 01:19 PM
Someone might have posted this on here by now but I heard this yesterday on a TED talk.

The speaker said that after around one week of sperm retention, the sperm cells begin to start showing signs of developmental abnormalities.- or something along these lines.

Yes - these cells were not meant to stick around for long periods of time. The same thing happens with ova, which is why we see certain genetic conditions more frequently in children of older mothers. The sperm cells degenerate much more quickly than ova do, because they're kind of designed for frequent dispersal. :giggle:

mildadhd
03-01-14, 01:34 PM
Thereby causing a double threat for an older man, eh?

What do you think we should do?



Peripherals

erratic
03-01-14, 04:19 PM
Double threat for the offspring. It should be brought to everyone's attention so people are more careful/considerate. If older people wanted kids perhaps they could find the healthiest of their stock in a lab.

Knowing how conservative my parents are and knowing that I was an accident makes me wonder just how damaged I was as a sperm. Ah well, past is the past.

Frequent dispersal- makes a ton of sense.

Amtram
03-01-14, 08:33 PM
I can't think of too many people who would object to that practice.

mildadhd
03-01-14, 10:12 PM
Double threat for the offspring. It should be brought to everyone's attention so people are more careful/considerate. If older people wanted kids perhaps they could find the healthiest of their stock in a lab.

Knowing how conservative my parents are and knowing that I was an accident makes me wonder just how damaged I was as a sperm. Ah well, past is the past.

Frequent dispersal- makes a ton of sense.


I agree.

Any possible threats that may interfere with any kids development, should be brought to the attention/education of the general public and all primary caregiver's.





Peripherals

Candlewax
03-04-14, 05:07 AM
sounds like a great title for a science fiction film