I appreciate the politeness and level of respect you have been granting me, and will attempt to return it, despite my anger at your recent policy posting.

In each such case, the submitting user grants ADD Forums the royalty-free, irrevocable, non-exclusive, perpetual and fully sublicensable right and license to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, create derivative works from, distribute, perform and display such ADDF Public Content (in whole or part) world-wide and/or to incorporate it in combination with other information and/or works in compilations in any form, media, or technology now known or later developed. ADD Forums shall have the right to register a copyright in any such compilations.

I do NOT grant the ADDforums any of the rights you are attempting to claim above. The ADDforums does NOT own the content of my posts and does NOT have permission to reproduce them. This policy was instituted AFTER I made the vast majority of my posts, and I NEVER agreed to it, NOR shall I ever. I shall make NO further posts while this policy remains in effect.

ANY attempt to publish any work or words of mine that have posted here without expressly seeking and obtaining my permission AFTER the date of this post may be met with legal action.

Contact me by private message or email if this is something you feel like discussing further. If not, then congratulations. You finally made me quit. Goodbye.

Paul

P.S. I'd suggest you post a warning in the Creative Writing section, explaining how you've given yourself the legal right to publish, sell, and profit from your members' creative work without getting their permission, giving them any percentage, or even telling them that you have done so.

In the interest of my fellow forum members, I MUST further expand upon what has been said above.

People come to this forum to discuss incredibly personal and private things. Marriage issues. Health issues. Psychiatric issues. There are subforums devoted to sexual abuse.

I wonder how many forum members haven't thought of the possibility that someday David, Andrew, and Tara might publish a book, "The Best of ADDforums.com"? I wonder how many forum members would be mortified to know that you can legally put in details about their sexual abuse history without obtaining their permission, paying them, or even informing them that you have done it?

Perhaps you didn't fully think through your policy when you posted it. I really hope that is the case. Because if you were already aware of the implications of this policy and posted it anyways, then that says something very definite about the character of the movers and shakers around here.

Paul,

I can understand your concern regarding this policy and do not know, myself, the reasons for it's implementation. I also do not know if, or what, modifications are possible in terms of limited copyrights, etc.

I can only say that I am cautious about putting "private" and "creative works" into the public domain because there are copyright issues throughout the web and the legal net is more than I am willing to take on. Therefore, I just don't put it out there if I think I want 100% ownership.

This hasn't stopped me, though, from being able to participate in this forum and others. I think you have offered a lot of people support, encouragement, and good advice. However, we each have to decide for ourselves how we want to deal with this internet world.

I would certainly be interested in hearing if you are aware of other copyright policies in other forums. I would also be interested in hearing what you, personally, would find acceptable for all parties concerned.

Looking forward to hearing from you.

Kim

Kim, on other forums we as posters do NOT lose our copyright. In fact, legally, we would have to sell our copyright. ADDF has not paid any of us for our copyright.

Example ONLY!
Essentially, this means if I post a piece of music on the net that I have of my own voice, ADDF cannot use it. A/ It is owned by a recording company. B/ I may sell or have my agent sell music on my behalf, but even though I sell it, I DO NOT EVER lose my copyright. If ADDF used it, they would be sued.

If we have given all that away by just being here, and we posted things we would not normally post HAD we known this policy was going to take effect, we should have the right to have "some" things removed.

Copyright, however, still rests with the author.

Clam has a point Kim. Anyone can say they wouldn't do anything, but that doesn't mean they won't. Especially any disgruntled members who could have read/copied/ anything we wrote and then left. I am not saying they ever would; but life is life, and some of us know it isn't predictable. Abuse issues really need to be protected.

Like Clam, I feel we should all look at this seriously.

This is a great forum, with good leadership:), but this kind of thing is frightening.

Can Admin perhaps clarify?:confused:

~Viktoria

The written policy re copyright is of the gravest goncern.

A day ago I was going to post some very private details in the "mens abuse forum". After re-reading the privacy policy post I deleted my entire post in that abuse forum.

The policy statment effectively gives complete rights to the forum owner to use material posted here for their own personal financial gain at some future date, by way of complilation into books, reports etc.

This means interested individuals and companies could simply pay a fee and be provided with statistics and detailed information of a highly personal nature about any posters who had provided such information in their postings.

That is entirely unacceptable given the nature of many postings

Perhaps admin could provide the information as to whom exactly is the legal owner of this forum?

Some of us would like to be able to provide this information to our lawyer in the event of our personal posts ,art, photograpy and creative writing appearing in print at some future date, without our written permission.

Hi all,

I am not disagreeing with you. :p :D I think it would be really helpful, though, if you would find some examples of other copyright policys. I don't think the forums are opposed to input and would really appreciate any information you provide.

As I said in my first posting. I don't know the background for this policy and I would only ask that you give administration the benefit of the doubt until it has been better clarified. Work with us to get to where we are all satisified. It is very time consuming researching this stuff (and I know you like to research :D) so go for it! I, for one, appreciate your interest and attention to the forums.

Hugs,

Kim

The Administration is happy to receive feedback from all its members, and all input will be considered as we continue to create an environment that benefits everyone involved. I have previously communicated with the staff of the private sections of the forums (and hopefully they have communicated this to their respective constituents), that the administration will be making an adjustment in the policies, to protect the private areas of the forums from publication of private information. This was offered after a calm, histrionic-free discussion in private message. Should any of you wish to voice your concerns and suggestions in a similar manner, I would be happy to hear them.

What people are missing here is that, unless there is another section to this policy that I'm missing, it does not imply that the members lose their copyright on anything they post. It does give ADDforums.com the right (a licence) to reproduce it in any way they see fit, such as publishing it to the internet using a web server, or, yes, publishing a book.

While the status of the "private" forums is a bit in question, I don't think anyone ought to be too upset about postings made in public forums. Anybody with internet access can find them by searching google. With respect to creative writing posts, it's a little iffier in ethical terms for ADDF to do it, but, keep in mind that many traditional publications are going to want things submitted for publication to them to not have been published elsewhere, including the internet, so, the likelihood of a member being able to make money off of creative works posted here is rather low.

All that being said, I understand what everyone is saying.

In keeping with the theme (this being my 666th post), if you want this policy to change, and you are a US resident, I suggest writing to your Congress-critters regarding the repeal of the Digital Millenium Copyright Act. If you're outside the US, I suggest writing a letter of protest to the US embassy or consulate in your country.

The DMCA is evil, folks. You can quote me on that.

Exeter, that is what I was saying. None of us have sold our copyright. I believe that Andrew would not in any way publish private forum data. Not once have I meant to imply that. But it still leaves many people with access to those forums.

Those abused ones have what appears to be no protection. I say "appears", because Andrew has already answered above. But there is no answer. I can empathize with what Clam is saying as well. His writings, along with many others is very valuable personally.

I just feel that those of us that are willing to stand up for our fellow members should at least be listened to.

And.......Good Morning Exeter :)

What do others think of the "Creative Commons" licence?
http://creativecommons.org/

I'm a fan. But I'm a fan of most things like this. Open source, GNU/Linux, Free (as in code) Software and the like.

The internet poses some really interesting questions about how we go through this medium. I've become fascinated with the implications to learning with the availability of information.

Old models of restriction are not working in many places that they did prior to the internet. New ideas are emerging to lead us into the future. I'd hope this would become one of those places, but this thread isn't very inspiring.

I have the distinct feeling that many members were unaware of the policies here prior to the vast improvements that have just taken place with our new privacy policy (PP) and terms of use (TOU) statements. This a big disappointment to me to have gotten over that big hurdle only to be under fire for the changes instead of helping celebrate a new direction that's so much more member friendly.

Thanks for taking the time to think about those changes exeter. It's cold out here and you've provided warmth.

WC - Tara is no longer part of the forums and has nothing to do with setting policy here.

I'm not thrilled with the level of conversation here. It's accusatory and focused on the negative. This does not help us to find richer ways to exist here.

This is a community, and as such we are all responsible for bringing to light more and stronger ways to foster the support we enjoy.

It's obviously incumbent on the administration to build a community of trust that flourishes on the vitality of it's memberships willingness to invest with their heads and hearts. It's also obvious to me that the need for leaders to lead needs to be acknowledged. Without that ability we would end up looking like an unmoderated news group and I don't enjoy that chaos. It's not very supportive.

An "us and them" stance is archaic, dated, and bores me to tears. I don't work that way, nor would I have taken this job to maintain the status quo. I'm just not cut from that cloth. If you want me to invest here with my head and heart, you'll have to come to trust that in me and encourage me along those lines.

Please be respectful of this. I'm a volunteer here and have had enough negative pressure in my life to hold me long after my death. I thrive on positive input.

There are logistical problems that would create a nightmare for anyone trying to moderate and administer here if we did not retain the ability to have control over what's posted where and when. So some degree of liberty to act on our vision for the community must be maintained.

Please try and focus on a positive vision rather than making assumptions about what we intend or don't intend.

I remain wide open to solution based discussions.

** It would help to have examples of how better ideas have worked elsewhere.

** It would help for some thoughtful proposals to be tabled in specific threads with specific titles.

** It would not help to fling mud as if somehow the forums have it in their mandate to rip off it's membership for profit or gain in anyway. This is wrong, untrue.

With your collective help, maybe we can work up a policy that both protects the administration from harm of exposure and irrational attack as well as providing a better safer environment for our membership.

Work is work. It's easy to sling arrows. Lets do our homework on this shall we?
Ian.

Doubt is uncomfortable; Certainty is ridiculous.

- Voltaire

Would it be too much to ask that if ADD forums would, for example want to publish a book "The best of ADD forums", permission from the members to do so would be sought?

Ian, the "Creative Commons" license may be an idea. I just looked at their web site, so I haven't fully grasped their concept yet, but I encourage others to check it out too.

Originally Posted by Andrew
In each such case, the submitting user grants ADD Forums the royalty-free, irrevocable, non-exclusive, perpetual and fully sublicensable right and license to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, create derivative works from, distribute, perform and display such ADDF Public Content (in whole or part) world-wide and/or to incorporate it in combination with other information and/or works in compilations in any form, media, or technology now known or later developed. ADD Forums shall have the right to register a copyright in any such compilations.

I don't understand why ADD forums should have those rights. What's the point? I think it would show more goodwill if the ADD forum staff would say: "We have no intention of doing anything of the above."

Originally posted by exeter
I don't think anyone ought to be too upset about postings made in public forums. Anybody with internet access can find them by searching google.

This is true, but those likely to be interested in them are people who are interested in gaining information about ADD.

This is a very nice and well run community. It's home is on the Internet. It's as it should be. I don't think ADD forums should have the right to publish the contents of the forums in a book or something.

What I think is the most upsetting is the way the word "right" is being used. It's like "We take the right to do as we please with the material without caring about how the members feel about it" That's the impression the wording gives. That may not be what's intended. It would be nice to know what is intended.

Originally posted by exeter
I don't think anyone ought to be too upset about postings made in public forums. Anybody with internet access can find them by searching google.

This is true, but those likely to be interested in them are people who are interested in gaining information about ADD.

This is a very nice and well run community. It's home is on the Internet. It's as it should be. I don't think ADD forums should have the right to publish the contents of the forums in a book or something.

Well, I would guess that anyone who acquires copies of my postings on ADD through whatever means (published in a book, google search, etc) is probably interested in info on ADD. That is not the point. I think the second paragraph here relates much more directly to the nerve that is being touched.

If it were possible to insert language such as "for the sole purpose of administrating and maintaining ADDforums," then, I think this might solve the problem. Perhaps an additional limitation to prevent ADDforums from profiting from our work without permission would then satisfy everyone. Creative commons, while I think it's great, probably isn't that well known to members here, so I'm not so sure about that route.

Well, I would guess that anyone who acquires copies of my postings on ADD through whatever means (published in a book, google search, etc) is probably interested in info on ADD. That is not the point. I think the second paragraph here relates much more directly to the nerve that is being touched. Maybe I didn't put it very well. I'll elaborate a bit: If I post in the ADD forums I've chosen to let people be able to read it if they find it and are interested in it. I have not chosen though that my posts be included in a book, even if it would be the very same people who read it.

If it were possible to insert language such as "for the sole purpose of administrating and maintaining ADDforums," then, I think this might solve the problem. Perhaps an additional limitation to prevent ADDforums from profiting from our work without permission would then satisfy everyone. I think this would be a good idea.

I can only say that I am cautious about putting "private" and "creative works" into the public domain because there are copyright issues throughout the web and the legal net is more than I am willing to take on. Therefore, I just don't put it out there if I think I want 100% ownership.

At no point before this has the ADDforums attempted to represent itself as "public domain". This is and has always been a private site, owned by private owners, and administrated privately. This is why I've always been on the forum's side in the free speech debates - private site means the owner's may regulate what can and can't be discussed.

I would certainly be interested in hearing if you are aware of other copyright policies in other forums. I would also be interested in hearing what you, personally, would find acceptable for all parties concerned.

I would find acceptable a statement to the OPPOSITE effect of the offending one, and I would find very little else acceptable at this point. An example follows (BOLDCAPS letters represent my changes):

In each such case, THE ADDFORUMS CONCEDES THAT IT DOES NOT HAVE the royalty-free, irrevocable, non-exclusive, perpetual and/OR fully sublicensable right and license to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, create derivative works from, distribute, perform and/OR display such ADDF Public Content (in whole or part) world-wide and/or to incorporate it in combination with other information and/or works in compilations in any form, media, or technology now known or later developed. ADD Forums shall NOT have the right to register a copyright in any such compilations.

(this last sentence is in fact the MOST alarming piece of the original policy. Under NO circumstances have I ever granted the right for the ADDforums to copyright MY writing in THEIR name!)

The Administration is happy to receive feedback from all its members, and all input will be considered as we continue to create an environment that benefits everyone involved.

If your response to my concern is an example of your considering a forum member's input, I find it very difficult to put any faith in this.

I have previously communicated with the staff of the private sections of the forums (and hopefully they have communicated this to their respective constituents), that the administration will be making an adjustment in the policies, to protect the private areas of the forums from publication of private information.

It IS good to see that you are taking steps to protect the private areas of the forum, however, the rights you are trying to claim over my public speech are equally unacceptable, if not as viscerally frightening.

This was offered after a calm, histrionic-free discussion in private message. Should any of you wish to voice your concerns and suggestions in a similar manner, I would be happy to hear them.

I have refrained from dropping veiled insults into this conversation, Andrew, and frankly I'm a little disappointed in you for lowering yourself to this level, especially in public, in front of all of your members.

I'm not thrilled with the level of conversation here. It's accusatory and focused on the negative. This does not help us to find richer ways to exist here.

I'm not thrilled about it either, but whether you want to converse about it or not, something negative is going on! And I don't know of any more constructive way to address it than to discuss it...

And if you read my posts, you will see that nowhere have I specifically stated that I think Andrew intends specifically to steal my rights and profit from them.

It's obviously incumbent on the administration to build a community of trust that flourishes on the vitality of it's memberships willingness to invest with their heads and hearts.

This is DOUBLY important in a community that discusses such personal issues as are popular and necessary at the ADDForums. And the insertion of the policy clause I am complaining about, and the only possible reasons I personally can think of for such an insertion, do exactly the opposite of establishing trust in me or inspiring a desire in me to invest in this community with my head and my heart.

It's also obvious to me that the need for leaders to lead needs to be acknowledged. Without that ability we would end up looking like an unmoderated news group and I don't enjoy that chaos. It's not very supportive.

And how exactly does claiming reproduction rights to my speech assist the administration of this website?

An "us and them" stance is archaic, dated, and bores me to tears. I don't work that way, nor would I have taken this job to maintain the status quo. I'm just not cut from that cloth. If you want me to invest here with my head and heart, you'll have to come to trust that in me and encourage me along those lines.

I could repeat this back to you verbatim. I don't want to be fighting this fight. I'm not only bored, but physically sickened by the fact that my moral duty requires me to stand up and speak out on this issue, and to face the contempt and misunderstanding that I have already faced from a couple of members and will undoubtedly have to face from others in the future to get my point made.

And whether I trust you personally, is, unfortunately entirely beside the point. You aren't the one trying to take my intellectual property rights.

Please be respectful of this. I'm a volunteer here and have had enough negative pressure in my life to hold me long after my death. I thrive on positive input.

Me too. That's why I quit being a moderator here. No positive input.

There are logistical problems that would create a nightmare for anyone trying to moderate and administer here if we did not retain the ability to have control over what's posted where and when. So some degree of liberty to act on our vision for the community must be maintained.

This is irrelevant to the clause I am complaining about. Nowhere have I disagreed with the rights of the ADDforums to limit posting and discussion on issues they feel are counterproductive.

Please try and focus on a positive vision rather than making assumptions about what we intend or don't intend.

The fact that I am bothering to discuss this here and now instead of just issuing a threat and calling a lawyer proves that I am doing exactly what you instruct me to do.

I remain wide open to solution based discussions.
** It would help to have examples of how better ideas have worked elsewhere.
** It would help for some thoughtful proposals to be tabled in specific threads with specific titles.

I have provided an entirely workable example above. I can't see how it will interfere in even the tiniest way with the ability for the administrators to operate the forum in an effective manner. In fact, I think it would go a great way towards establishing confidence and trust in the forum administration to adopt such a policy change.

** It would not help to fling mud as if somehow the forums have it in their mandate to rip off it's membership for profit or gain in anyway. This is wrong, untrue.

I have not accused anybody of trying to do this. What I object to is somebody assuming that I have agreed that they have the right to do this, when I have not, especially when I can't see how that right could possibly be used for any other useful purpose.

With your collective help, maybe we can work up a policy that both protects the administration from harm of exposure and irrational attack as well as providing a better safer environment for our membership.

Work is work. It's easy to sling arrows. Lets do our homework on this shall we?

Clarify for me, is this implying that my objections here are irrational? Is this supposed to foster the community of goodwill and mutual cooperation you want me to be part of?

I'm disappointed in you too.

You know what? Here's a potentially much simpler solution.

I don't want to fight about this any more than any of you do.

I will make this offer: do whatever you want with your policy, but first delete all 3000+ posts of mine from the forum and from the forum backups/archive, so they cannot be accessed by Google. Agree with me via an email that you do not and will never attempt to claim any rights whatsoever over them.

In return for this, I will shut up, go away, and never bother you again.

I have a very strong desire to do that anyways, once the issue is resolved, so if the issue is resolved earlier rather than later, it can only benefit everybody concerned.

The vast majority of online communities & groups (including Yahoo, MSN and many others – cited below) have similar Copyright & Use agreements to what we have.

Let me try and explain the basic premise and reasoning behind this policy.

1st, it is to protect ADDForums.com (and you) from people coming to ADDForums and copying our (all of ours) work and reproducing where they see fit, including in print publications. There are a lot of people who copy content out of forums to build their own websites with it. Whenever we find out someone has done this, we will take the lead in seeing to it that it is removed.

2nd, it is not to steal anyone's work. When you post something original here, you still have copyright to the work (post) you made however you grant ADDForums irrevocable license to use the content you created. A good example of the reasoning behind this is there are times when someone is banned for a legitimate reason and then out of retaliation wants all of their posts removed. Well, guess what... That would destroy the readability and understanding of a great many threads if that member was active. We cannot and will not allow that. We all have spent a great deal of time building content and a good amount of money for software licensing, dedicated server and management costs so ADDForums will continue to help others in the future.

We have never discussed the idea of writing a book. It was not a part of the thought process on this policy when it was first discussed and implemented back in 2002, however the idea of using part of the forums in the future for a printed newsletter is a right ADDForums.com still reserves. I can promise all of you that no private information will ever be used, and it is my policy that we would contact the poster(s) (if able) to discuss re-using any posted content outside of the forums in such things as newsletters and ADDForum related publications.

Honestly, neither Andrew nor I have the time to devote to any type of publication so that likely won’t happen. If some day the members of ADDForums want to get together and design an online ADDForums e-zine or printable newsletter, I would be open to that, and select pieces of ADDForums content (Informational – not personal) would be accessible to them to fill parts of it with content.

Most online communities and groups have policies covering this, as did ADDForums.com until the last upgrade, which I must have mistakenly left out – and will be returning to the sign up process.

I invite you to review some other online community and group policies relating to use of submitted content.

Yahoo:
(SEE) 8. CONTENT SUBMITTED OR MADE AVAILABLE FOR INCLUSION ON THE SERVICE
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ (http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/)

http://www.dodgetalk.com/forums/disclaimer.php (http://www.dodgetalk.com/forums/disclaimer.php)

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread6688/pg1 (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread6688/pg1)


You can dig through many more active communities here:
www.big-boards.com (http://www.big-boards.com/)

At this moment we are editing the wording in the policy. I will post it when completed.


Thanks,
David

What people are missing here is that, unless there is another section to this policy that I'm missing, it does not imply that the members lose their copyright on anything they post. It does give ADDforums.com the right (a licence) to reproduce it in any way they see fit, such as publishing it to the internet using a web server, or, yes, publishing a book.

You are exactly right. Members DO NOT lose their copyright. The only way that could happen is if it were signed away.


While the status of the "private" forums is a bit in question, I don't think anyone ought to be too upset about postings made in public forums. Anybody with internet access can find them by searching google. With respect to creative writing posts, it's a little iffier in ethical terms for ADDF to do it, but, keep in mind that many traditional publications are going to want things submitted for publication to them to not have been published elsewhere, including the internet, so, the likelihood of a member being able to make money off of creative works posted here is rather low.

All that being said, I understand what everyone is saying.
In one of the other communities that I admin, the members all got together and started a newsletter which has now turned into a published newspaper. On some occassions, content is pulled from the forums but I can tell you that I do not recall a single instance where anything was personal in nature and as far as I know, the person(s) that posted it were consulted. Honestly, most people don't want to read about personal issues. They are interested in facts and helpful information. Now, on the other side of that, members have submitted LOTS of articles, many of which are personal in nature. Again, they are rarely used for any number of reasons.

What we are doing is leaving the door open should some content be pulled in the future and the author is no longer around.

I may take this slightly personal, but it does sadden me to think that some of you think we would put your private stuff out there. Anything that takes place in private forums will never be made public.

David

Exeter, that is what I was saying. None of us have sold our copyright. I believe that Andrew would not in any way publish private forum data. Not once have I meant to imply that. But it still leaves many people with access to those forums.

Those abused ones have what appears to be no protection. I say "appears", because Andrew has already answered above. But there is no answer. I can empathize with what Clam is saying as well. His writings, along with many others is very valuable personally.

I just feel that those of us that are willing to stand up for our fellow members should at least be listened to.

And.......Good Morning Exeter :)
And so you shall be. :) (listened to)

Could you expound on what you mean by "Those abused ones have what appears to be no protection."

I know I am coming in a little late and may have missed it,
Thanks,
David

Would it be too much to ask that if ADD forums would, for example want to publish a book "The best of ADD forums", permission from the members to do so would be sought?

I think there are variations to this. Is it just general conversation (some light posts on a topic) or is it an substantial article that one of ADDF's members has submitted? Personally, I would not publish someone's work (posted originally at ADDF, and definitely not if created elsewhere first) without their permission. I feel that is the right thing to do, copyright use agreement or not. Same goes for pictures posted/attached here. I would most definitely get a signed agreement for their use.




I don't understand why ADD forums should have those rights. What's the point? I think it would show more goodwill if the ADD forum staff would say: "We have no intention of doing anything of the above."

Please see my post above about ex-members wanting all their posts deleted.



What I think is the most upsetting is the way the word "right" is being used. It's like "We take the right to do as we please with the material without caring about how the members feel about it" That's the impression the wording gives. That may not be what's intended. It would be nice to know what is intended.
Working on that "right" now. :)

You know what? Here's a potentially much simpler solution.

I don't want to fight about this any more than any of you do.

I will make this offer: do whatever you want with your policy, but first delete all 3000+ posts of mine from the forum and from the forum backups/archive, so they cannot be accessed by Google. Agree with me via an email that you do not and will never attempt to claim any rights whatsoever over them.

In return for this, I will shut up, go away, and never bother you again.

I have a very strong desire to do that anyways, once the issue is resolved, so if the issue is resolved earlier rather than later, it can only benefit everybody concerned.Your posts will not be deleted for the reasons that I have stated previously. I could give you my guarantee that none of your work will be reproduced outside the forums without your approval first, however you made the choice to post them here, publicly, and unless I am mistaken, you were around before the site was upgraded and agreed to the policies when you joined. (Remember the box you ticked?)

David

I do not like this, do not consent to this, and do not think you are in the right.

Nevertheless I do not wish to fight about it unless further provoked.

Feel free to close the thread.

Personally, I would not publish someone's work (posted originally at ADDF, and definitely not if created elsewhere first) without their permission. I feel that is the right thing to do, copyright use agreement or not. Same goes for pictures posted/attached here. I would most definitely get a signed agreement for their use.
:)Then, therefore, the administration should have no problem making the above viewpoint an explicit part of the policy. :)


Andrew has stated:

I have previously communicated with the staff of the private sections of the forums (and hopefully they have communicated this to their respective constituents), that the administration will be making an adjustment in the policies, to protect the private areas of the forums from publication of private information. This was offered after a calm, histrionic-free discussion in private message. Should any of you wish to voice your concerns and suggestions in a similar manner, I would be happy to hear them.
Is this a suggestion that these matters should not be discussed in this public forum? You may not have meant it this way, but it would be easy to assume that subtext. Perhaps you would like to clarify.

Regards,
Coral Rhedd

We're currently (as we speak) working on the policy language, and will make changes as necessary.

Thanks for everyone's patience.

I do not like this, do not consent to this, and do not think you are in the right.

Nevertheless I do not wish to fight about it unless further provoked.

Feel free to close the thread.Yes, you did, and to be blunt, I am.

As for closing this thread, it may be in due time.

...Is this a suggestion that these matters should not be discussed in this public forum? You may not have meant it this way, but it would be easy to assume that subtext. Perhaps you would like to clarify....

No, that was not the intent of my comment. I was merely offering to meet, one-on-one, with concerned members. All members are free to post their concerns publicly, and as I've stated previously, we're eager to get everyone's feedback.

No, that was not the intent of my comment. I was merely offering to meet, one-on-one, with concerned members. All members are free to post their concerns publicly, and as I've stated previously, we're eager to get everyone's feedback.
Good, because I have some questions:

1. Many forums have this policy, but am I correct in understanding there was a previous policy that was more restrictive of members rights and that the present policy represents a change of sorts?

2. Has this site ever in the past at any time published members posts without the members explicit permission?

3. Could you please give us the dates of when the previous policy was in effect?

4. Could you please tell us if the forum agreement we signed onto when we became members said anything about this policy and, if so, those dates as well?

Good, because I have some questions:

1. Many forums have this policy, but am I correct in understanding there was a previous policy that was more restrictive of members rights and that the present policy represents a change of sorts?

Yes.

2. Has this site ever in the past at any time published members posts without the members explicit permission?

No

3. Could you please give us the dates of when the previous policy was in effect?

From Start to Upgrade and through the present, however, since the upgrade, it apparently wasn't public notice.

4. Could you please tell us if the forum agreement we signed onto when we became members said anything about this policy and, if so, those dates as well?

The forum agreement USED to spell out the brief, but specific policy in place. However, this was apparently lost during the upgrade to V.2. We're going to correct this.

Y
I may take this slightly personal, but it does sadden me to think that some of you think we would put your private stuff out there. Anything that takes place in private forums will never be made public.

David
It wasn't really my intention to imply this, although I do admit my use of quotation marks around the word "private" probably had a part in provoking this reaction. My use of the quotation marks was to highlight that the policy, as currently written, does, in fact, allow such usage. I find that acceptable, since I don't publish any content on here that I don't want the entire online population of the world to read about. I am guessing some people do not.

Your newsletter example is a great example of something that would fall directly under the changes I proposed, if it were officially sanctioned by ADDforums. Again, I don't have any problem with that type of usage, and, I suspect, neither do most members, although I don't claim to represent anyone other than myself (nor am I a lawyer licenced to do so).

Exeter,
It wasn't your post that triggered that, however I think I did make that statement in my reply to you... Just the general feeling I was getting, and again, not so much from you.

I am going to try and outline things in a more considerable way in the following draft, as long as it passes the legal scrutiny test.

Thanks,
David

I also want to comment on one more thing before I get back to the TOS, Copyright & Use docs...

This is a "public site" anyone (that isn't IP blocked) can view. That means most all of the posts & threads (unless the forum is private or blocked) can be viewed by anyone on the internet, however it is privately owned and not "public domain".

It is my understanding, without digging back into the legal books, that when an author publishes to a public domain, he no longer has copyright. Whether this is accurate or not, it DOES NOT apply here. You don't give up copyright when you post at ADDForums (or pretty much any other forum, group, blog (etc) for that matter), you just give us the right to use it.

Some forums see that differently and since you created it there, they assert full rights and ownership. Next time you sign up at another forum, check out their TOS/TOU/Copyright Notices and so on... I think you will be surprised to find that a great many of them assert copyright ownership claims.

Ok, I'm being redundant. I'm off to steal all your intelectual property... Even if I can't. :p

Actually, nothing is in the public domain under US law unless either the copyright has expired (in which case, the author is dead and probably won't be complaining about it), or the author specifically places it in the public domain.

I don't have to worry as I have never had or ever will have anything intelectual enough to worry about

So I guess that makes me a happy camper

I never post anything online that I would not revise anyway. I have lots of poetry, but most literary magazines buy first rights only if they pay at all. First rights means that they won't pay or publish if it has been published elsewhere. Does this include online? I rather suspect so.

Best solution: I just don't post creative efforts on line. They are mine. I do think the forum should provide some protection and assurances for those who post creative works, but if your think you want to publish works elsewhere the best solution is to keep them completely private until then.

I know people get validation from posting creative work online but, if you are serious about writing, a college workshop is a good (but sometimes rather tough) place to get feedback.

What would upset me is if the forum published very personal stuff that people post online. However, I feel pretty secure behind my nick. I don't even give out my personal email to anyone online.

I am much more paranoid than most folks here. ;)

...I do think the forum should provide some protection and assurances for those who post creative works...

As mentioned earlier in this thread, an exception to the copyright policy is being made to exclude the posts made in private forums and the creative sections.

And so you shall be. :) (listened to)

Could you expound on what you mean by "Those abused ones have what appears to be no protection."

I know I am coming in a little late and may have missed it,
Thanks,
DavidHi David,

There are a lot of things in the private sections that no one would want to see in a book, or on the open internet. This policy that is now in effect came in after most of us would have posted data.

I cannot, no, I will not and never would use anyone else as an example, so I'll use my own story.

I never want to read anywhere that ADHD Mother watches as child is murdered. Is this clear enough for any of you to understand the right to be told "in writing" that this forum would never use any of our posts in private sections? Can you tell us that no one would be disgruntled enough to ever do that? 100%?

On the other hand I did state that all members still owned their copyright to creative writings, etc. You, Exeter, and myself all agree on this.

Andrew, by labelling us as histrionic broke your own forum guidlines. He was PM'd, and did not reply. So if they can so easily be broken with a personal attack, how much credence is there on "we will nevers"???????

This comes from another Web Master of a company AND forum as large as ADDF.

I am very sad to say yes they can do that. If they did not have any information saying they may change the policy and become effective immediately then simply put no they cannot.

Even if its 'legal' there are many actions you can take personally. As XXXXXXX said you can ask for that, but it may be too late. I would leave the option open as for consulting a lawyer. I am not expert in the legal terms, but I know my Internet.

First thing is first. Write up a Cease and Desist letter saying they must stop this. They cannot share information etc. Put all of your reasonable clauses in this. Now this is very important to who you send it to. I very much doubt you want to publicly announce the URL, so I'm going to PM you.

For everyone who is wondering, you send it to the webmaster of the site, and their host. Even if there host declines you go upper in the food chain - host's datacenter. Now people such as The Planet are very nice and if it is a reasonable case such as handing out personal identifiable information which you was told it would remain private, they will remove the web site and hopefully take action.

But as I said I would consult a lawyer just in case. Must consultations are free of charge, just in case. I highly suggest you do because I do not have legal knowledge.


I am very sorry to hear this, and I hope we all can solve this together! People like this make me feel very angry for what the world is today..Yes, you can virtually do what you want in a legal sense.

I have been a very long term member of Yahoo, but when I signed up, I knew what I was signing up to. They didn't change their policy.

David, I'm not here to make trouble, and I don't believe for one second that Clam is either. But we [as in ALL members] need some type of protection, especially for Private forums.

I don't like the idea of anyone's creative works being used, but I was judicious on not posting any of my work that is really good. I feel sad for my fellow members that they posted with a sense of security that in a legal sense does not exist.

I reiterate, I think this forum is a brilliant place, a happy place to be. Right now, it needs some TLC. You have been very kind in your replies. Thank you. We who often stand up and collect the heat, seldom are treated nicely.

David, written word has no emotion. There is no "ill wiill" towards anyone personally on my part.

Thank you for reading, and replying.:)
~Viktoria

...I never want to read anywhere that ADHD Mother watches as child is murdered. Is this clear enough for any of you to understand the right to be told "in writing" that this forum would never use any of our posts in private sections? Can you tell us that no one would be disgruntled enough to ever do that? 100%?

Viktoria, there will be a written policy to this effect. We, the staff, are bound by the policies we set down. I have never broken my word on this forum, nor do I plan to. Ever. can I guarantee ANYONE from being the same way 100%? I could say the same of any volunteer or employee of ANY company. Staff are bound by a similar set of rules when they take a position at ADD Forums.

Andrew, by labelling us as histrionic broke your own forum guidlines. He was PM'd, and did not reply.

My public apologies for my poor choice of words, and not being able to respond to everyone's private messages. I can't and won't apologise for my human emotions (Yes, Admin's have feelings too) but I apologise for not responding in a more "admin" manner. Viktoria, you had every right to expect a response to your private message...I just did not have the bandwidth to respond in a timely manner.

Good morning one and all,

After a good nights sleep I'd like to jump in and make a couple of comments:

1. I really appreciate the attention of the Administrators to this issue and would ask that we give them a chance to provide us with the Revised Copyright Policy. I think they have stated clearly that the issues of Private Forum and Creativity Forums will be addressed differently.

2. I want to thank all of you for bringing this to light, as painful as the discussion became. I also want to thank everyone for calming down and bringing it back to a healthy discussion and for actually being able to make me laugh a couple of times. It has been a successful discussion in that errors/oversights have been recognized and are being addressed.

3. I must say that I admire those who are willing to wade through the legalese and take it on. I get that "glazed eye" look. I, too, found the policy unsettling and was going to PM Andrew just as this whole discussion took off! Wow, talk about ADHD and ESP! :eek:

4. I want to offer my help to anyone here who needs it...be admin or member. If letters need to be written, for example, I can help...just say the word (pardon the pun :D).

5. I, too, felt (being the extremely sensitive ADHDer that I am :p) the barbs being thrown and can only say it hurt. I had to step back until I could get my own perspective back and realize that, once again, we are all human and when we get agitated we go into fight mode. Isn't it amazing how POWERFUL words can be?

I am really glad to be a part of this forum and able to work such interesting, insightful, challenging, creative, people!

Kim

Viktoria, there will be a written policy to this effect. We, the staff, are bound by the policies we set down. I have never broken my word on this forum, nor do I plan to. Ever. can I guarantee ANYONE from being the same way 100%? I could say the same of any volunteer or employee of ANY company. Staff are bound by a similar set of rules when they take a position at ADD Forums.Andrew, firstly, thank you for your reply. I know you would, and have never broken your word on this forum, and not for one micro-second do I think you, personally would. I mean that in sincerity. If I did not, and had not trusted you, I would never have posted things I did in Private Areas.:)

My public apologies for my poor choice of words, and not being able to respond to everyone's private messages. I can't and won't apologise for my human emotions (Yes, Admin's have feelings too) but I apologise for not responding in a more "admin" manner. Viktoria, you had every right to expect a response to your private message...I just did not have the bandwidth to respond in a timely manner.
Please, no apology necessary. I mentioned that to make a point at how easy it is to break something we are all supposed to uphold, or something "we" say must never be done. We all make mistakes too. That's just the point. Human error. It was also not my message you did not respond to, it was one written by Ancient which would have kept this more private, so please.....no apology is necessary. [This is in part my poor English grammar]


I will await, along with others, as to revisions, and until then maintain peace.

If I have anything to add, it would be preferable to remain private, and not disrupt the forum.

Thank you for your response,
~Viktoria

Good morning one and all,

After a good nights sleep I'd like to jump in and make a couple of comments:

1. I really appreciate the attention of the Administrators to this issue and would ask that we give them a chance to provide us with the Revised Copyright Policy. I think they have stated clearly that the issues of Private Forum and Creativity Forums will be addressed differently.

2. I want to thank all of you for bringing this to light, as painful as the discussion became. I also want to thank everyone for calming down and bringing it back to a healthy discussion and for actually being able to make me laugh a couple of times. It has been a successful discussion in that errors/oversights have been recognized and are being addressed.

3. I must say that I admire those who are willing to wade through the legalese and take it on. I get that "glazed eye" look. I, too, found the policy unsettling and was going to PM Andrew just as this whole discussion took off! Wow, talk about ADHD and ESP! :eek:

4. I want to offer my help to anyone here who needs it...be admin or member. If letters need to be written, for example, I can help...just say the word (pardon the pun :D).

5. I, too, felt (being the extremely sensitive ADHDer that I am :p) the barbs being thrown and can only say it hurt. I had to step back until I could get my own perspective back and realize that, once again, we are all human and when we get agitated we go into fight mode. Isn't it amazing how POWERFUL words can be?

I am really glad to be a part of this forum and able to work such interesting, insightful, challenging, creative, people!

Kim
I dont know anything about legality ect either...but if i can help in any way....count me in...:D

Just an update. We're still working on the revisions. I'm at lunch right now but have to get back to work shortly. Hopefully, I will have a final this evening.

Thanks,
David

I'm working from the road over the next few days, but I'll be working on the revisions this evening.

Curious were this all ended up? Have the revisions been posted somewhere else, or they are not finished yet? I wouldnt mind an update.

Thank you.

No clue here either. I just noticed that a bivalve got sacked over it. You can call me slow on the uptake if you like. :D

David has the final say-so on the revisions. I believe he's currently tied up on another project. When he's finished, the revisions will be posted. Thanks to all for your patience.

Thanks Andrew. I appreciate the update. I look forward to seeing the final version as it will dictate what I post in the future, how personal I decide to get in public forums for example. I am not saying I dont agree, or I have problems with your policy's, I dont. Anything truely personal will be put in PM's or in my journal. For my own protection of course.

Good luck! :D

any updates to this?

Dunno, but considering the heated tone of many posts in it, perhaps everyone decided to "leave it be." ("It" being this thread.)

If you're wanting updates on what they ended up doing, you could try searching somewhere, or looking in the guidelines (they are updated from time to time) to see if the mention of copyrights seems to have been altered in response to the thread? :eyebrow:

Maybe that made no sense. Hell, PM Andrew or one of the other heavily-involved people, I'm of no use, just thought I'd try to give you something.:o

KJ/C
any updates to this?