View Full Version : Direct knowing versus "Rule Books". Democracy and the bureaucracy.


Kunga Dorji
03-15-14, 08:43 AM
Divine Wisdom, Understanding (http://www.printfriendly.com/print?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wanttoknow.info%2Fdivin ewisdomunderstanding%23.UyRusFNWUPs.printfriendly&title=Divine+Wisdom%2C+Understanding)

Finally, an article that crystallizes all of my concerns about the perversion of truth and wisdom at the hands of our temporal, bureaucratic hierarchy.
This article speaks to the core of the perversion that was sent up in "Yes Minister" but which "lives on" (zombie like) in the apparatus of our pseudo-deomcratic government and driven by "uber bureaucrats" at the heads of our allegedly democratic institutions.
It is a shocking truth that in many ways these individuals really do resemble the "undead" of so many horror movies.

Unmanagable
03-15-14, 11:01 AM
I haven't had a chance to read it yet.....heading out in a few.....but the thread title reminded me of a quote from one of my favorite farmers and I wanted to share:

"People expect way too much salvation through legislation." ~Joel Salatin (not sure if it's accurate, but captures the idea he was expressing)

davesf
03-15-14, 09:34 PM
I like the article. I don't see anything I'd label a "perversion", either in the article, or in the world.

The hierarchy is quite benign as a manipulative force and merely represents one important stage in the journey towards wholeness.

Meaning and truth exist only in the mind. Once we reduce thought to language, it becomes relative, for words are translated into meaning in the reference frame of the receiver. This limitation means that the hierarchy, communicated with language, can't provide the truth, it can only lead us to the truth within ourselves.

This is not a perversion, it is an honorable effort to help us all. Some point fingers at those who talk as if there is truth in the message itself, or who focus us on the hierarchy. However, it is not possible to know whether they know the truth or not. If they do, they may feel this is the best way to lead people to the truth. To quote The Matrix, "there is a difference between knowing the path, and walking the path", and "she told you what you needed to hear".

Kunga Dorji
03-15-14, 10:00 PM
I like the article. I don't see anything I'd label a "perversion", either in the article, or in the world.



Meaning and truth exist only in the mind. Once we reduce thought to language, it becomes relative, for words are translated into meaning in the reference frame of the receiver. This limitation means that the hierarchy, communicated with language, can't provide the truth, it can only lead us to the truth within ourselves.

This is not a perversion, it is an honorable effort to help us all. Some point fingers at those who talk as if there is truth in the message itself, or who focus us on the hierarchy. However, it is not possible to know whether they know the truth or not. If they do, they may feel this is the best way to lead people to the truth. To quote The Matrix, "there is a difference between knowing the path, and walking the path", and "she told you what you needed to hear".

The perversion comment is an extension of mine.

You have to be on the recieving end of the stupidity produced by the hierarchs to fully understand how desperately bad this model is.

Let me give you a tiny example:
Recently Alprazolam (xanax) has been rescheduled S8- in Australia. It now needs a permit letter from a psychiatrist and a written permit to prescribe from the Health Department.

On February 1 the workload of the relevant department more than doubled, with no allowance for staffing.

Now it takes a week to get a permit to prescribe any scheduled drug- and this has left doctors having to either prescribe illegally, or allow some of their opiate using pain patients to go through a drug withdrawal.

A hierarchy always concentrates responsibility for decision making in the hands of a few. Inevitably one powerful individual prevails and makes decisions that are consistent with his world view and experience and irrelevant to the real situations of individuals. It is the centraised planning model that wasso decried in the Soviet Union- by the US- which is just as centrally controlled- by Wall St.

Adam Smith, in speaking of the "genius of the market" was actually referring to a market consisting of free men who were roughly equal in power.

James Surowiecki's book, "The Wisdom of Crowds" casts much light on this issue.

It is a apparent that our world is in a very parlous state: massive debt, massive inequality, widespread warfare and huge wastage of resources on weaponry, environmental problems in every direction including destabilisation of the climate and massive pollution with heavy metals, organic compounds associated with plastic manufacture, and radioactive waste from Fukushima especially.

ALL of this is the direct work of our political and bureaucratic hierarchies as currently constituted.

I mentioned the approach of a singularity-- but I have a sneaking suspicion that a major financial crisis might just be the opening event that triggers that outcome.

sarek
03-16-14, 07:52 AM
If you seek indoctrination and programming, look no further than the very first admonishment to an newborn child. That is when limiting beliefs first get installed into an innocent mind.
If we peel off the layers of indoctrination, starting at the top, we must not relent until we get to the bottom. It is only there where we shall find our true self.

meadd823
03-16-14, 12:39 PM
Let me give you a tiny example:
Recently Alprazolam (xanax) has been rescheduled S8- in Australia. It now needs a permit letter from a psychiatrist and a written permit to prescribe from the Health Department.

On February 1 the workload of the relevant department more than doubled, with no allowance for staffing.

Now it takes a week to get a permit to prescribe any scheduled drug- and this has left doctors having to either prescribe illegally, or allow some of their opiate using pain patients to go through a drug withdrawal.

A hierarchy always concentrates responsibility for decision making in the hands of a few. Inevitably one powerful individual prevails and makes decisions that are consistent with his world view and experience and irrelevant to the real situations of individuals. It is the centraised planning model that wasso decried in the Soviet Union- by the US- which is just as centrally controlled- by Wall St.

I am sorry but how does this relate to spirituality except to be placed into this rock and a hard place would strain any one spirituality.

One is discussing spiritual ideology but using political references leaves me going :scratch:


Spirituality should cease being a dividing line and professionalism and the reason for choosing it needs to become a common ground for those being forced into the same no win situation as well as the patients this will effect - so literal change can be addressed.


Hierarchy is sought by humans because it is ordered and groups together a diverse group of individuals so that they can move as one - it isn't the hierarchy that is to blame it is the lack of balance between hierarchy and individualism. many simply do not want to bother giving up their blissful ignorance and force those in charge to become accountable to the group of which they lead, because they would have to turn off their electronics and actually do something - This happens in spiritual circles as well a as in political ones.

It is the same ole lack of balance that has plagued humanity for as long as there has been a humanity, the false reality in my reality is that the ADDers believe that some how every one else has achieved this when the truth as I understand it is balance is a difficult achievement for all humans

sarek
03-16-14, 12:42 PM
This is spirituality because we are trying to find the real us under all the layers of garbage and delusion which our existence on this world has covered us in. We need to be aware of the programs, all of them, that are alien to us yet secretly shape our actions and our behavior.

meadd823
03-16-14, 01:11 PM
Those layers of garbage and illusion are also part of "us" so there is no place of separation


At one time meadd823 was a person I wanted to become - Over time this persona bleed over into my real life so at present date meadd823 it is a mere expression of who I already am - However meadd823 began as an illusion one that was already me.

Ego seeks to separate one self from ones own reality when in fact all our reality is us other wise we would not be experiencing it.

In other words in my understanding one is seeking to find that which is directly in front of you - what is missing is not the revelation of self but the refusal to accept that which is.

No argument intended just a bit of "mind candy" to contemplate :D

sarek
03-16-14, 01:20 PM
I do not seek to escape reality, i seek to expose it in all its colors. There is no aimed seeking involved, no ideal image to find. Only to see, to observe what is.

There is no sense in merely talking about this, thats pointless wiseacring. For this to make sense, it has to be lived, to be experienced.

Kunga Dorji
03-16-14, 04:06 PM
Those layers of garbage and illusion are also part of "us" so there is no place of separation


At one time meadd823 was a person I wanted to become - Over time this persona bleed over into my real life so at present date meadd823 it is a mere expression of who I already am - However meadd823 began as an illusion one that was already me.

Ego seeks to separate one self from ones own reality when in fact all our reality is us other wise we would not be experiencing it.

In other words in my understanding one is seeking to find that which is directly in front of you - what is missing is not the revelation of self but the refusal to accept that which is.

No argument intended just a bit of "mind candy" to contemplate :D

Now the whole question of non judgmental awareness comes into play here.
This is a subject of huge confusion in mindfulness circles- as the aim of non judgmental awareness is NOT to accept something passively with no intent to change it. At least as defined in the Buddhist path- the aim is awareness of the complete situation compatible with effective change.

That is often missed.

someothertime
03-16-14, 11:02 PM
Moderator note:

Thread re-opened, while mindfulness and spirituality discussion is permitted in this section with connection to day to day living of members.

It is spirituality in general and NOT RELIGION.

Due to this threads potential to veer into "murky waters", sparking religious and political comment.

All members posting in this section are kindly requested to consider content and where it deviates into specificity, to extrapolate the core points with reference to personal outcomes.


Thankyou